May 13, 2020 • 40 mins
In this episode of The Summit Podcast for growing businesses, Bill Eckstrom and Kyle Hamer discuss how leaders are being thrust into a new form of management. There are some who are rising to the challenge and leading their businesses forward, while others are paralyzed and being overrun by the changes in the economy. Bill provides good insight on how leaders can separate themselves to create the right environment for trust and high growth during economic uncertainty.
About Bill Eckstrom
Bill is the President and founder of the EcSell Institute. No stranger to sales, and leadership. Bill has held sales leadership positions. Bill presented a TEDx Talk to an audience of over 1,700 at the University of Nevada, Reno where he shared life-altering, personal and professional development ideas through the introduction of the “Growth Rings." Since the release of the Talk, it received 100,00 views in just one week and now has over 3,000,000 views.
Most recently Bill helped co-author The Coaching Effect: What great leaders do to increase sales, enhance performance, and sustain growth which became an Amazon-Best Selling book in its first week of launching.
About Kyle Hamer
A sales and marketing veteran with a deep understanding of strategy, digital marketing execution, and using technology to enhance brand impact. A hands-on leader with a passion for solving business challenges with process, operations, and technology. When Kyle's not tinkering on businesses, you'll find him spending time with those he loves, learning about incredible people, and making connections.
About Hamer Marketing Group
Market growth for a new product or service is often limited by market distractions, unreliable data, or systems not built to scale. Hamer Marketing Group helps companies build data-driven strategies focused on client acquisition and sales development supported by the technology and operations necessary to create profitable growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kyle Hamer (00:04):
Hello.
Welcome to the summit, thepodcast.
We bring you the knowledge andinsights from industry leaders
and professionals.
No fluff, no double digitovernight growth schemes.
I'm your host Kylie.
I'm on a mission to find secretsto success in business and we're
having real conversations withreal leaders in order to get you
answers to help you.
You elevate yourself on yourcareer path, taking your
(00:24):
business and yourself to thenext level.
Today's guests joining us on thesummit is my good friend, bill,
extra bill, welcome to the show.
Bill Eckstrom (00:32):
Well, you have no idea how fun it is to be
visiting with you right now.
Kyle Hamer (00:36):
It's been many, many years.
For those of you who do notknow, bill bill is the president
and founder of Excel Institute,no stranger to sales and
leadership.
Bill has led organizations formany, many years.
He's been district manager,sales manager, all the way up to
EVP or senior vice president ofsales for a publicly traded
health care organization.
(00:57):
Recently, bill gave a Ted talkto an audience over 1700 people
in Nevada where he shared an eyelife altering personal and
professional developmentcircumstance that led to a
transformation.
And really I think the birth ofExcel Institute today that video
has over 3 million views and isthe foundation and launching
(01:18):
point for Bill's most recentadventure, which is a
bestselling book.
Bill helped coauthor thecoaching effect, what great
leaders do to increase sales,enhance performance and sustain
growth in which recently becamean Amazon bestseller.
Bill, did I miss anything?
Bill Eckstrom (01:38):
Yeah, it's interesting to me when marketing
people like yourself puttogether something that like,
like what you just describedcause it makes, makes me sound
so good that you know, there'snothing in there that, you know,
bill Ekstrom, the former collegedropout, bill Ekstrom who lost a
(01:58):
job, bill Ekstrom who's screwedup so many things in his life,
they don't bring those thingsup.
So it's really, which is ironicbecause it's actually, those
things will probably make youwho you are more than the things
you described.
But anyway, I just always findthat a little ironical.
Kyle Hamer (02:15):
Yeah, I love, I love, I love the, first of all,
I love the humility and secondof all, I love the fact that
you're like, Hey, it's actuallymore the, the things that maybe
we didn't succeed at or wedidn't get accolades for that
probably make us more who we arethen than the moments of
success.
And I think that's a, that's a,that's a brilliant perspective
to have.
Bill Eckstrom (02:33):
And I think it's real.
There's, you know, we see in ourresearch the, if once one has to
be challenged, one has to bethere, their ability to overcome
obstacles.
Those are all the things thatreally make that person who they
are of.
(02:55):
Yeah.
When I think back to all thethings that, and I, and I don't
mean this tongue in cheek, butyou know, everything from being
kicked out of school in seventhgrade, suspended from them, all
public schools, I mean on and onto losing a job later in life.
Those are all, those are thejuicy things that really make
you up and that it's thoseexperiences that have allowed me
(03:19):
to get on the Ted stage thathave allowed me to feel like I
could author a book.
So yeah, nobody just wants toput it this way.
Nobody really wants to introduceyou that way because how many
people would get on yourpodcast, you know, former
dropout of school and you know,on and off.
Kyle Hamer (03:40):
Well, you know, in today's clickbait society,
seventh grade dropout suspendedby principal.
Now it changes the world.
What's going on here?
I'm going to find out what'sgoing on.
Oh, well, you know, that doesn't, that's a really good job of
actually setting us up becausethere's a lot of transition that
happening around us.
I mean, we'd be, we'd be remissnot to think about all of the
(04:02):
transitions going on in themarket today and today.
I really wanted to spend sometime talking to you about
leadership leading throughchange and how organizations or
leaders and leaders don't haveto be entitled of, Hey, I'm a
manager or a CEO.
It could be a leader within acommunity or a tribe of people
(04:23):
where you lead in all differentdirections, but how they lead
through this transition, likewhat, what is the world look
like for, um, for people in thistransition?
And how can leaders impactchange through adversity?
So, you know, at a, at a reallyhigh level, you've got these
growth rings.
Let's start there.
Tell me what are the growthrings and where we're currently
(04:44):
at as a society and as, asbusinesses today?
Bill Eckstrom (04:48):
Okay.
Uh, it would take too long todescribe the growth earnings in
detail, but the TEDx talk doesit in 12 and a half minutes.
So I would encourage people togo there.
It's called white comfort willruin your life.
And it's really on the premisethat there are four primary
environments that dictate ourgrowth.
(05:11):
And those environments arestagnation, order complexity and
chaos growth.
Acknowledging and recognizingonly occurs in a state of
discomfort and the a ring of thegrowth rings that displays that
(05:31):
most in a most healthy ways.
Complexity people want order.
Order is predictable and putspredictable outcomes and it's
predictability that makes uscomfort, comfortable.
But it's comfort that as I saidin the Ted talk that can kill
us.
It comfort will ruin your lifeif you allow it to.
And I'm not saying order is badand I'll give you example and I
(05:54):
think we're in a time right nowwhere orders are important.
So getting back to what you weresaying earlier, stagnation is
pretty self explanatory.
Chaos cause I believe where weare at now as a country and more
specifically our researchfocuses on team.
So when, when, when we talkabout leadership, when we talk
(06:16):
about coaching, we're talkingabout people that have teams of
people that report to them.
We usually use the term coach asopposed to leader because I
believe great needers can be afollower that just have not, are
not in a role.
Coaches have calf teams ofpeople that report to them.
(06:36):
So that's why we use that term.
But I'll use it interchangeably.
So what we've been researchingis really right now, and we're
doing it with, we have a coven19 research project going on and
what we're finding is that yes,teams are in it, people in teams
are in States of chaos.
And what defines that is reallynot having any control over
(07:02):
inputs or outcomes.
And that really puts us in astate of chaos and the
behavioral impact as it createsone of the three F's, fight,
flight or freeze.
And we're seeing that in theworkforce.
Furloughs of the disease itselfare the virus itself.
(07:25):
There's so many things that arecreating this within our
organizations.
So what it tells us and whatwe're learning is that leaders
need to understand theorganizational environment
they're in and then respond toit or accordingly.
And when we're in a chaoticstate, which is Ren, which is
(07:46):
what we're in now, leaders needto help the people on their
teams get back to a state oforder, an environment of order,
predictability, comfort.
While by and large, that's notwhere you want to be all the
time.
It's where we need to be today.
We need to bring somepredictability to our lives.
(08:07):
We need to bring some of thatthat comfort back in because
when we come out of this and wewill come out of this, that is
what creates the buy-in to anorganization, to the leaders
within that organization.
Then I'm going to stick andthrow with you as we, as we get
into the future, when we comeout of this, if right now, if
(08:28):
you're not acknowledging thefact that people are in a state
of Cass, if you're not helpingthem bring predictability and
comfort, if you're not, ifyou're not bringing strength of
relationship, you're going tomiss out on that opportunity
because I will not be there withyou when it's time to really
move forward.
That was a long way around thebarn, Kyle, and I apologize.
You know, what I love about whatyou set up is one of the things
(08:52):
that I've been, uh, I've beenpersonally frustrated with in
watching how companies areresponding
Kyle Hamer (08:57):
is there's this, there's this sense of
disingenuousness where theleaders or the, the, the
appointed head of anorganization or head of a team
says one thing and behaves in atotally different way and
further perpetuates the chaoswhere, Hey, maybe the business
did have to make difficultdecisions or is having to do for
(09:20):
Lowe's in, in, in the way thatthe messages communicated, the
way that the people aresupported don't align it with
what type of leader, what typeof message has been being
propagated by that person foryears.
So as all of a sudden it's like,Oh, all of a sudden the business
required me to behave completelydifferent from myself.
(09:40):
How do I, how do I get those twoto be congruent again?
Right?
So it's like the, uh, the, theexample somebody gave me
yesterday was, um, they wereflying an airplane and they flew
into Cumulus clouds.
They were flying for two tothree minutes and then the
flight instructor looked overand said, Hey, take, take a
sense.
Are you, are you right set up,are you upside down?
(10:02):
When the person said, I thinkI'm right side up, I flew out of
the closet and they were upsidedown and so I immediately was
like, yeah, so you know you needto, you need to be able to
instrument stuff and fly by dataand insights.
And they said, well, yes and no.
If you're in a dog fight, whichis what many businesses and
organizations are in right now,you have to be able to fly by
(10:24):
instinct and make quickdecisions and react accordingly.
But that may not be the way thatyou've established the the brand
or the message or the tone ofthe organization.
How do leaders synthesize those?
Like how do you, how do they getpermission to get buy in that,
Hey, we're doing what's best forthe organization right now?
What it's counter to what maybewe've said over the last 90 120
(10:47):
days or even the last three tofive years.
Bill Eckstrom (10:50):
That's wow.
How long do we have Kyle?
Kyle Hamer (10:56):
No.
I think tactically
Bill Eckstrom (10:59):
now was a time where leaders and coaches need
to Mo more than ever if theyhaven't, but turn to their
teams, they need to become morecollaborative.
They need to get the team buyin.
If you think any leader has theedge on all the knowledge on
(11:21):
what's going to happen to thefuture, you're wrong.
The cumulative, the cumulativewisdom, the collective wisdom
and power of a team of peoplecan certainly help you.
So that's in my mind, whereleaders need to go is they need
to focus first on relationshipswith the people on their teams.
(11:42):
That brings the healthy orderthat I was talking about
earlier.
There's certainly one of thesteps, and I've got a white
paper coming out next week thataddresses this, but then turn
and begin to engage your peoplelike you never have before.
Met them in on things.
The president of our company,Sarah and I were talking today
(12:04):
about how we're going todisclose to the people on our
team financial informationthey've never seen before.
We want them to know theposition we're in.
We want them to know that we'regoing to be okay.
We want them to to see what weneed in renewals and new sales
and those things so we cancontinue on as healthy business.
They're going to be moreinvolved in what we're doing as
(12:27):
a company than they ever have asa result of this.
So I think that's the first stepis is two steps.
Number one, developing thatrelationship, a stronger bond
with the people on your team.
And then number two, becomingcollaborative with them.
Tap into that so you can gatherthe collective wisdom of the
group.
Kyle Hamer (12:46):
Is there a third step where those are those the
two corner cornerstones?
Bill Eckstrom (12:50):
I could probably come up with another five.
I had enough time, but I would,if people did that, that would
be huge.
It would just be huge becauseyou know, we're seeing right now
that, Oh, I don't want to sayhere, over 50% of the people
(13:12):
have, you know, are really, Ithink over 60% of the people are
not sure how to perform theirjob effectively moving forward
from our coven 19 research.
That's a problem is six, six outof 10 year people say, I don't
know how I'm going to beeffective over the next 90 days.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Okay,
Bill Eckstrom (13:37):
we've got some issues you've got to work out.
So again, there's thatcommunication and tapping into
those people.
Kyle Hamer (13:44):
I'm going to circle back to that because I think
that that's, that's really, uh,something really important that
we need to explore.
But before we go there, I wannaI want to ask a question as it
relates to, um, the type of, of,of leader type of, um,
perspective you need to have inorder to be effective.
You said that the two keys righthere are focused on
(14:05):
relationships and engaged likeyou never have before.
The things that you're doingExcel Institute and with your
business is you're creating alevel of transparency and
openness that you've never hadto do before.
What are some of the elementsthat you're, you need to have as
a leader?
What are some of the things thatmaybe you're going to grapple
with?
You've got to overcome in orderto be able to be do one and two
(14:26):
effectively because they may bethings that are not like, Hey,
I'm a leader.
I'm not supposed to tell you allthe information.
Hey, I'm a leader.
I'm not supposed to look like Idon't know what's going on.
Hey, I'm a leader.
Like what are the elements thatyou've got to work through or,
or things that you can lean intoto help you be comfortable in
those positions that may not bewhat your strong suit has been
up to this point?
Bill Eckstrom (14:47):
Well, I just experienced one of them this
morning and I could share thatwith you.
One of my challenges as a leaderthat is important.
We, we see it in our research,that vulnerability as an
example.
And, and let me preface this bysaying, as coaches and leaders
(15:12):
of teams, we're using thismoment as an excuse for
evolution, but we shouldn't needit.
The R this is going to force usinto behaving differently.
A lot of leaders behavingdifferently, but sadly as
leaders what we need to see ismore people really studying and
(15:36):
understanding theireffectiveness, using data to
understand how effective we are.
And that's one of the thingsthat we do is we really help
people from a data perspectiveknow what their strengths are as
coaches, leaders knowing whattheir gaps are.
So having said that, one of thegaps I know I have is a
vulnerability.
(15:57):
And I was expressing, I behavedin a way recently, Kyle, for
reasons you're likely aware ofand not afraid to share.
I lost my father last Friday.
And while to use your term, I'mkind of a stoic one when it
comes to things like this, Idon't get overly emotional,
(16:19):
obviously.
I love my dad dearly and I'msorry to see him gone and I miss
him already.
What I wasn't aware of is how itwas already impacting my
behaviors.
Now I am a guy who journalsevery morning and I do
gratitudes every morning.
I meditate five times a week.
I am really into understandinghow my behaviors impact others.
(16:43):
Wow.
Did I see this stressmanifesting in a shorter temper
with people on my team this lastweek and just this morning I was
on the phone with our presidentwhere she was questioning my
response to a couple itemsrecently and I had to take a
long breath and say to her say,listen, I'm sorry, but she knew
(17:07):
my father had passed and I said,I think that is impacting more
than more than I know I a yearago six, I'll say a year ago, I
would never would have admittedthat maybe even six months ago
or two months ago.
I would never have admittedadmitted that.
But that's an example of I thinkwhere we as leaders have to just
(17:28):
really share what's in ourhearts.
And that is not a soft side ofleadership.
That is the stuff that helpspeople grow, that helps teams
grow.
So I don't know if that'sanswering your question, but
vulnerability would certainly beone of those items that people
need to fall back on.
We talked about relationships.
You know, we've been tellingpeople since this kit, you've
(17:50):
got to communicate with theirpeople more than you ever have.
You need to get out there, youneed to be texting them.
You need to be calling them.
You need to understand how theywant to communicate and quit
talking about business all thetime.
Talk about their life at home,talk about their office, get
their kids on the next zoomcall, let them say hi to their
kids.
We're on a call.
Those are the other things thatthey need to be doing is letting
(18:11):
people, they know they careabout them beyond just an
employee.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah.
Kyle Hamer (18:23):
Taking that position, taking that position
of vulnerability.
And uh, what's the old saying?
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care.
What kind of impact do you seethat happening having on the six
out of 10 people understandinghow to be effective at their
job.
If, if, if an organization or aleader can begin being
(18:44):
vulnerable and begin talkingthrough and being honest,
transparent with themselves,leaning into other people's
lives at the, at the personlevel, how does that help solve
the challenge that you're seeingaround people don't know how to
be effective around 610 well
Bill Eckstrom (19:03):
that's a really good question and I'm, and I'm
thinking about my response tothat Kyle.
First and foremost, I thinkwhen, cause let's face it, not
everybody has the answer.
I think consciously, not thatwe're doing everything right,
but we're really working hard tohelp our everybody.
(19:23):
And we have a smaller team butit doesn't matter cause
everybody has a team of peoplethat rolls up to them.
Third, if they're in a coachingrole, whether it's athletes or
whether it's a sales team orwhether it's an executive team,
the letting people know how muchyou care, buys you time.
(19:47):
In other words, Hey, I don'tknow exactly what I'm supposed
to be doing for the next 90days, but here's what I do know
my boss cares about me and so Iam willing to live in this state
or be in this state a whilelonger because I know you have
my best interest at heart.
(20:10):
That's what I believe it doesmore than anything and, and then
it also provides psychologicalsafety for me to come forward
and say, Hey, here's somethingthat I could be doing.
If I don't have that environmentwith my manager, with my leader,
(20:31):
with my coach, with my boss,you're not going to hear that
from me.
Kyle Hamer (20:38):
It sounds to me like what you're saying is, you know,
in being more collaborative andfocusing on relationships and
then being transparent thatyou're teams out of a state of
chaos as it relates to businessand work and into a state of
order as it relates torelationships.
What's gives them the foundationthat they need to be more
productive?
Bill Eckstrom (20:59):
Yeah, the first of all, we, when we, when we
study high performing teams, thebase of the pyramid, what's
endemic to them all aretrust-based relationships.
And this goes from athleticteams, high-performing,
athletic, athletic teams, allthe way up to high performing
business teams.
(21:19):
The foundation is trust-basedrelationships.
So yes, that that has to becreated.
Now I can't remember your entirequestion.
I think I only answered part ofit.
No, just I guess I was justtrying to summarize it as we
start where we started
Kyle Hamer (21:37):
and kind of what we were talking about the front is,
is we're all in a state of chaosright now.
Like everywhere is chaotic.
And one of the things that youcalled out early on was, is that
we need to move to a state oforder and the quicker we can get
to order, the better our peoplewill be.
Bill Eckstrom (21:52):
Yeah.
So, so the best, the mosthealthy order anybody could ever
have and to keep in mind orderswhat?
Understanding inputs and havingpredictable outcomes the most,
the best order you could everprovide me is order around.
Uh, my trust in you and yourtrust in me.
(22:13):
Don't ever, ever make me guessas to whether or not you care
about me as a person.
Kyle, if you're my boss, if Ican just check the box and know
that Hey, no matter whathappens, Kyle cares about me as
a person.
I don't want to have to guessthat.
The second I'm questioning yourfaith in me, your trust in me,
you get your care about me isthat's, that's when I begin to
(22:37):
shelter that.
So I begin to not perform.
That's when I began to go on astate of chaos.
Kyle Hamer (22:43):
So what do you think, I mean you, I mean
you've, you've, you've hit on,you've hit on notes of it, but
if you, if we look back sixmonths from now at the teams,
the companies, the leaders, theperformers that performed the
best through this state ofchaos, what do you think the
three to five attributes are ofthat particular team?
Bill Eckstrom (23:05):
Wow, let's have another podcast and I'll be able
to tell you based on ourresearch exactly what they are,
but I'm going to come back tonumber one, relationships still
trust-based relationships.
I think those organizations thatare creating this with the
people that keep mine, so manypeople are having to Mae off
(23:28):
people.
There's furloughs.
And I am not saying thoseshouldn't be happening.
My goodness.
So it should happen.
I understand it.
Those, you know, people aretrying to survive, but what you
don't know, what organizationsare don't understand is while
they're probably looking attheir people that haven't been
furloughed, that are still onboard and they're thinking to
(23:51):
themselves, Hey, they're luckythey still have their job.
And perhaps those people feelthat way.
But how did the fact that theyhave a colleague and a friend
and older has a job, how doesthat making them feel?
How do we know how it'simpacting their ability to
perform at work?
Because we see it, like I said,fight, flight and freeze are
results of chaos.
(24:12):
Productivity will drop and isdropping obviously.
So what will come out of this?
What are the two or threethings?
I don't know.
I'm going to, I'm going to basedon the science of our growth
rings.
So like I said, relationshipnumber one and number two,
they'd better find that state oforder to give people some
predictable outcomes, get themin a state of comfort.
(24:32):
So when we come out of the scene, we can get back into
complexity and growth mode in ahurry.
Kyle Hamer (24:38):
Well, and I think, I think the thing that, um, at
least for me personally as Ilistened to you talk through the
growth rings and talk throughthe, the elements here, the part
that that really propels the,um, the state of order or the
productivity, right?
I mean if you furloughed, if youhad a, you know, an organization
(25:00):
I know laid off well over ourfurloughed, excuse me, well over
150 people and just yesterday, alot of them people that I know
very closely, and I mean youintroduced a state of chaos
where 20% of the workforce isgone.
You've lost all of that capacityand production gone.
Then you have the emotionalimpact of the people that are
(25:23):
left, right?
There's the, well, if we don'tpull through this, am I the next
one that's on the furlough andwhat it would, it seems like to
me or what I hear you saying, mytakeaways here would be as is
the quicker you can focus ontheir relationship and and not
giving people platitudes of,Hey, everything's going to be
okay, but helping them focus ontheir safe with you, no matter
what the business outcome is,that they're safe with you as a
(25:45):
leader or as a coach or as ateammate, creating that safety,
the transparency of, Hey, Idon't know either like getting
them into that state of order.
Where are, there's some somebalance and some, some comfort
if you will, in therelationship.
And Hey, I can trust what'scoming that will move the order
(26:06):
to where you can then actuallybegin working on the business
problem, which is we've got tofix production and we've got to
fix whatever our output is.
And you'll have the doublewhammy.
Like it's fixed one cause youcan and then the other you can
work on together,
Bill Eckstrom (26:19):
right?
Yes.
So to put that in in a realisticsense like you were just
describing, which is what wewere talking about this morning
within our own organization.
So we have those relationships,those trust-based relationships.
We work hard at those.
We do things like every Fridaywe have a, uh, kind of a, uh,
covert gathering on, on zoom.
(26:42):
So we all get on board, kidscome in and out.
People might have a cocktail andwe'd do anything except talk
business.
Everybody's kind of checking inwith each other with random
texts.
Some phone calls, very sinks too, just to see how everybody's
doing.
So we're checking that box onrelationship.
But now, where else?
(27:02):
What other order can we givethem?
Well, financial order.
Okay guys, to your pointearlier, here's the reality of
our situation is most cash wehave in the bank, here's
renewals coming in.
If we may know more new sales,here's the number of months we
can last and exists where wedon't have to worry.
Okay?
(27:23):
With new sales, with a, youknow, 20% of hitting our target,
here's how long we last 30 40 50so now there's no guessing games
people can see.
It's predictable.
I get it, I see it.
So we're removing that fear of,well, bill says we're okay, but
(27:43):
what does that mean?
Well, let's define what okay isbecause what's okay to me may be
different than what is okay toyou.
So I'm just going to give youthe information and, and that's
one of the things, Hey man, I'vebeen seeing that on LinkedIn
lately.
A lot of people, you know, kindof that old football coach just
trying to get people backselling again.
Everybody used to suck it up andget going.
(28:04):
Yeah, it's been hard, but wereally need it.
That is so gone.
That is so ridiculous that asleaders to assume that everybody
is going to behave like youwould just suck it up and go
sell.
I'm not saying that we don'tneed to, but if that's your
approach to getting people outthere and you need to find a
(28:26):
different role, that'sridiculous.
I'll just give you an amen forthat cause that's pervasive.
It just shocks me.
I see these messages.
I'm LinkedIn and I just want toshake the person by the
shoulders and say wake up andreally get to know your people.
(28:47):
Anyway.
Enough on that.
I don't know if there's anythingwe could see more eye to eye
than on that one bill.
Cause there's a lot ofknuckleheads out there that are,
that are the old propaganda ofsuck it up buttercup.
You know, smile and dial and ifyou're not, if you're not
closing, there's something wrongwith you, not the market and
(29:09):
right.
It's come on.
Times have changed, they arechanging.
Nobody knows what it's going tolook like.
But here's what I know is thatpeople are affected today.
So they better figure out howthey're affected and cater to
that.
And my ability as a coach, Ican't treat all 15 players the
same way on a basketball team.
I got a coach 15 different ways.
That means I have to know 15different individuals and I
(29:31):
can't just say suck it up andgo, well then I think you know,
it's man, right on, right on theback heels of that you've got,
you've got different marketsthat
Kyle Hamer (29:41):
are affected differently, right?
So you have some markets thatare in survival mode.
Hey, if I'm calling into NewYork city right now, and that's
my territory as an example, as asalesperson, they're in survival
mode.
I can't suck it up.
I'm not doing much commerce.
And if you don't have the, um,emotional intelligence where
they, you know, theperceptibility to be like, well,
(30:02):
you just got to call more had,who hasn't seen the picture of
time square completely empty,right?
They're there.
They're in survival mode.
There are other businesses thatare in adapt right there.
They're saying, okay, well I'mtrying to figure out how to
navigate and move through this.
And then there are otherbusinesses and other places
where there's high growth
Speaker 3 (30:21):
[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (30:22):
organizations or sales leaders I think probably
need to take a giant breath andlook at their team and talking
to salespeople specifically.
But I think this is more broadbrush, brush stroke for all
leaders.
Take a breath and look at whatyour team is facing, not only in
the business world, but at home.
Bill Eckstrom (30:40):
Yeah, Kyle, that's, that's well said.
And again, I'm not braggingabout what we've done, we've
just, but I'll share with youanother story because it fits in
well with what you said.
For us to move forward asprospecting as usual, as
(31:00):
servicing as usual.
Just felt wrong.
It didn't feel right.
Are we taking care of ourcustomers?
Of course we are.
But we have the capacity to do alot of things that we couldn't
do anything with.
So what we did is we took ourresearch department, we know
(31:21):
we're great at understanding theimpact organizations, leaders,
environments have on people.
So we thought, okay, let's putthis into some COBIT research.
And that's what we did that I'vereferred to a couple of times
and we gathered together a, wecreated a 12 question survey
where organizations can send itout to as many people as they
(31:44):
want in their teams.
And it's a two minute survey andwe will give them a report, the
organization within 24 hours tounderstand how this pandemic is
affecting their individuals, howit's affecting their perception
of their future with theorganization, how it's impacting
their ability to perform.
(32:05):
And it's actionable information.
And here's the best part.
We're doing it for free.
Any organization that wants totake part of this to really help
their people understand thatthey have a voice and help them
understand how it's impactingand which will then make you a
better coach and a betterleader.
They can do it for free.
So that's some of the things youcan do is say, Hey, go out and
(32:26):
sell.
Go out and do this.
Now let's look at some differentthings we can do.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (32:33):
what are you, I mean you've, you've, you've had this
out there for a while.
What are you seeing?
I mean I think that's where theout of 10 came from, right?
They don't know it'd beeffective in the next 90 days.
What else are you seeing?
Like what are the things, are weseeing that organizations like
the people in the visitorssaying, Hey, I need help here.
Hey, this is something that'snot clear to me.
What else?
What else are you seeing inyour, in your study?
Bill Eckstrom (32:55):
What's, what's interesting are a few things.
Number one is the number ofpeople that aren't worried about
Covitz impact on thempersonally.
It's only 50% of the people or51% of the people are really
worried about the impact ofcoven on the personally, which
has to be some surprised thatbaby people are just blindly
(33:18):
going to work withoutunderstanding it or, I don't
know that one I don't grasp.
What's really good to see is thenumber of managers, coaches,
leaders that are reaching out tothe people on their teams more
frequently.
And we're seeing that a lot morenow than we did even a week ago.
(33:42):
And our research, there's been alot more communication, a lot
more proactive reaching out topeople.
We're seeing that of all themediums people right now, they
want a phone call more.
It's more than the video, morethan uh, uh, texts.
(34:03):
They want a phone call, theywant, they want to hear a voice,
which I thought was really coolto see.
So those, and there's someothers that I can't think about
the top of my head, but thoseare some of the things we're
seeing with within organizationsright now.
Oh.
And the last being that they'restill looking for their meters
to communicate plans.
(34:25):
They still need that plan.
They have to know what theirfuture is going to be.
That that's what, that's whatthey're wanting most from their
leaders is that communication ofwhat's our future going to look
like.
Kyle Hamer (34:37):
It's, um, I find it ironic that the elements that
you just hit on, um, in manyways are the elements that
whether it's Excel Institute orsome of the other organizations
you've seen, but there's a,there's a small company that got
a lot of accolades for some veryoutrageous things they did years
(34:59):
ago.
Gravity payments.
Are you familiar with gravity,Dan?
Price on gravity payments.
I am not so Googling whenyou're, when you're done.
But Dan is a CEO that basicallyhe raised everybody's wage in
the company to what do you callthe living wage, which was
$70,000 or more.
Thank you.
With your minimum you would makeworking for gravity payments was
70.
(35:20):
And he did this five years agoand people were like, you're
crazy.
You're going to go out ofbusiness.
There's a lot of reasons why hedid that.
But covert 19 hit and themajority of the folks that
gravity was working with aresmall businesses.
So your uh, you know, your, yourrestaurants, your hair salon,
stylists, service basedindustries that were immediately
(35:41):
impacted because of the, becauseof the virus and the
stakeholders.
He sat down with his company, helaid out and he said basically
we've got, I remember it wasfour or five months where their
cash, we're going to have tomake changes.
We can either choose to losecertain people or you guys can
do a voluntary pay cut.
(36:03):
First round of voluntary pay cutmeant the business, I think it
was, it lasted another 18 monthsbased on what people were
willing to voluntarily give uptheir income for being a part of
the organization.
He was honest, he wastransparent, he laid out the
plan and what they saw was isthat the people responded well
to exactly what you're talkingabout, transparency, having a
(36:25):
plan and then ultimately knowhow they fit and could
contribute to that to ensuretheir own sense of order.
Bill Eckstrom (36:32):
Yeah.
And that's in what you justdescribed as a wonderful story
of how that can be done.
And then, and that's how busy,that's how great businesses will
respond.
There's one thing to say.
Our people come first andthere's the other thing to live
the fact that our people comefirst.
So that was a good story.
Kyle Hamer (36:52):
Well thanks.
Um, well look, we can, we couldsit here and we could chat
forever and ever if you're opento it.
What I would love to hear ismaybe your favorite or most
poignant moment as the seventhgrade dropout slash high school,
college challenged kid, but thatbiggest impact your dad had on
(37:13):
your life or, or one of the bestmemories that you have you to
share that that would be, thatwould be awesome for us.
Bill Eckstrom (37:19):
Wow.
Uh, first of all, Kyle, thankyou for that opportunity.
Let's see if I can do thatwithout crying right now.
The biggest impact that my dadhad on my life.
It's not a moment.
(37:40):
It's a way of life.
The, um, my dad lived a life ofintegrity.
Yeah.
He, he worked, I said collect alot of the people in the
greatest generation.
You got up every day he went towork.
(38:01):
He had nothing as a kid,nothing.
I remember one of the storieswhen he's talking about how he
had come back as a sophomore inhigh school and he made the
track team and his dad said, areyou starting?
Are you number one?
And my dad said, no.
But I think if I keep workinghard coaches, I got a lot of
talent.
He said, I think I can be bylater in the year and my
(38:23):
grandfather's responsible, hegot to quit because I need you
working more than the track teamneeds you.
So the dad had to go back toschool and tilt the track team.
He couldn't participate anymore.
So it's those things that when Ilook back, the way I treat
people, I learned from him thetrust and belief.
(38:45):
My dad is huge.
He was a great coach, he washuge.
And he had what what we nowrefer to as the developmental
bias.
He would see things in people,wonderful things in people.
And as a kid, I used to watchhim, the way he looked at people
and the way he treated people, Ithink, wow, what does he see
that I don't see?
And then those things.
So I would say the, the way hetreated people and the way he
(39:09):
always tried to get the most outof others was, was one of those
things.
The work ethic was another inhis honesty and integrity was
another.
Those are all things that havereally impacted in fact of my
life in a wonderful way.
So thank you for thatopportunity.
(39:30):
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, thank you.
Kyle Hamer (39:32):
Sure.
And thank you for being generoustoday.
I mean, we've, we've appreciatedhaving your time, your insight
and years of, of research andexperience.
It's been a fantasticconversation, understanding how
leaders can really impact changeand navigating, you know, world,
the world of turmoil that's outthere.
So thank you for being heretoday, bill.
Bill Eckstrom (39:52):
Kyle, thank you so much.
Best of luck to you and thanksfor asking wonderfully poignant
questions.
Kyle Hamer (40:00):
My pleasure.
For those of you listening, thishas been some, my podcast with
bill Ekstrom and Kyle hammer.
We appreciate you taking time.
We want you to know that thereis positivity in the world, even
though it seems like it's chaosoutside until next week.
This is Karen.
Hello.
Welcome to the summit, thepodcast.
We bring you the knowledge andinsights from industry leaders
and professionals.
No fluff, no double digitovernight growth schemes.
I'm your host Kylie.
I'm on a mission to find secretsto success in business and we're
having real conversations withreal leaders in order to get you
answers to help you.
You elevate yourself on yourcareer path, taking your
(00:24):
business and yourself to thenext level.
Today's guests joining us on thesummit is my good friend, bill,
extra bill, welcome to the show.
Bill Eckstrom (00:32):
Well, you have no idea how fun it is to be
visiting with you right now.
Kyle Hamer (00:36):
It's been many, many years.
For those of you who do notknow, bill bill is the president
and founder of Excel Institute,no stranger to sales and
leadership.
Bill has led organizations formany, many years.
He's been district manager,sales manager, all the way up to
EVP or senior vice president ofsales for a publicly traded
health care organization.
(00:57):
Recently, bill gave a Ted talkto an audience over 1700 people
in Nevada where he shared an eyelife altering personal and
professional developmentcircumstance that led to a
transformation.
And really I think the birth ofExcel Institute today that video
has over 3 million views and isthe foundation and launching
(01:18):
point for Bill's most recentadventure, which is a
bestselling book.
Bill helped coauthor thecoaching effect, what great
leaders do to increase sales,enhance performance and sustain
growth in which recently becamean Amazon bestseller.
Bill, did I miss anything?
Bill Eckstrom (01:38):
Yeah, it's interesting to me when marketing
people like yourself puttogether something that like,
like what you just describedcause it makes, makes me sound
so good that you know, there'snothing in there that, you know,
bill Ekstrom, the former collegedropout, bill Ekstrom who lost a
(01:58):
job, bill Ekstrom who's screwedup so many things in his life,
they don't bring those thingsup.
So it's really, which is ironicbecause it's actually, those
things will probably make youwho you are more than the things
you described.
But anyway, I just always findthat a little ironical.
Kyle Hamer (02:15):
Yeah, I love, I love, I love the, first of all,
I love the humility and secondof all, I love the fact that
you're like, Hey, it's actuallymore the, the things that maybe
we didn't succeed at or wedidn't get accolades for that
probably make us more who we arethen than the moments of
success.
And I think that's a, that's a,that's a brilliant perspective
to have.
Bill Eckstrom (02:33):
And I think it's real.
There's, you know, we see in ourresearch the, if once one has to
be challenged, one has to bethere, their ability to overcome
obstacles.
Those are all the things thatreally make that person who they
are of.
(02:55):
Yeah.
When I think back to all thethings that, and I, and I don't
mean this tongue in cheek, butyou know, everything from being
kicked out of school in seventhgrade, suspended from them, all
public schools, I mean on and onto losing a job later in life.
Those are all, those are thejuicy things that really make
you up and that it's thoseexperiences that have allowed me
(03:19):
to get on the Ted stage thathave allowed me to feel like I
could author a book.
So yeah, nobody just wants toput it this way.
Nobody really wants to introduceyou that way because how many
people would get on yourpodcast, you know, former
dropout of school and you know,on and off.
Kyle Hamer (03:40):
Well, you know, in today's clickbait society,
seventh grade dropout suspendedby principal.
Now it changes the world.
What's going on here?
I'm going to find out what'sgoing on.
Oh, well, you know, that doesn't, that's a really good job of
actually setting us up becausethere's a lot of transition that
happening around us.
I mean, we'd be, we'd be remissnot to think about all of the
(04:02):
transitions going on in themarket today and today.
I really wanted to spend sometime talking to you about
leadership leading throughchange and how organizations or
leaders and leaders don't haveto be entitled of, Hey, I'm a
manager or a CEO.
It could be a leader within acommunity or a tribe of people
(04:23):
where you lead in all differentdirections, but how they lead
through this transition, likewhat, what is the world look
like for, um, for people in thistransition?
And how can leaders impactchange through adversity?
So, you know, at a, at a reallyhigh level, you've got these
growth rings.
Let's start there.
Tell me what are the growthrings and where we're currently
(04:44):
at as a society and as, asbusinesses today?
Bill Eckstrom (04:48):
Okay.
Uh, it would take too long todescribe the growth earnings in
detail, but the TEDx talk doesit in 12 and a half minutes.
So I would encourage people togo there.
It's called white comfort willruin your life.
And it's really on the premisethat there are four primary
environments that dictate ourgrowth.
(05:11):
And those environments arestagnation, order complexity and
chaos growth.
Acknowledging and recognizingonly occurs in a state of
discomfort and the a ring of thegrowth rings that displays that
(05:31):
most in a most healthy ways.
Complexity people want order.
Order is predictable and putspredictable outcomes and it's
predictability that makes uscomfort, comfortable.
But it's comfort that as I saidin the Ted talk that can kill
us.
It comfort will ruin your lifeif you allow it to.
And I'm not saying order is badand I'll give you example and I
(05:54):
think we're in a time right nowwhere orders are important.
So getting back to what you weresaying earlier, stagnation is
pretty self explanatory.
Chaos cause I believe where weare at now as a country and more
specifically our researchfocuses on team.
So when, when, when we talkabout leadership, when we talk
(06:16):
about coaching, we're talkingabout people that have teams of
people that report to them.
We usually use the term coach asopposed to leader because I
believe great needers can be afollower that just have not, are
not in a role.
Coaches have calf teams ofpeople that report to them.
(06:36):
So that's why we use that term.
But I'll use it interchangeably.
So what we've been researchingis really right now, and we're
doing it with, we have a coven19 research project going on and
what we're finding is that yes,teams are in it, people in teams
are in States of chaos.
And what defines that is reallynot having any control over
(07:02):
inputs or outcomes.
And that really puts us in astate of chaos and the
behavioral impact as it createsone of the three F's, fight,
flight or freeze.
And we're seeing that in theworkforce.
Furloughs of the disease itselfare the virus itself.
(07:25):
There's so many things that arecreating this within our
organizations.
So what it tells us and whatwe're learning is that leaders
need to understand theorganizational environment
they're in and then respond toit or accordingly.
And when we're in a chaoticstate, which is Ren, which is
(07:46):
what we're in now, leaders needto help the people on their
teams get back to a state oforder, an environment of order,
predictability, comfort.
While by and large, that's notwhere you want to be all the
time.
It's where we need to be today.
We need to bring somepredictability to our lives.
(08:07):
We need to bring some of thatthat comfort back in because
when we come out of this and wewill come out of this, that is
what creates the buy-in to anorganization, to the leaders
within that organization.
Then I'm going to stick andthrow with you as we, as we get
into the future, when we comeout of this, if right now, if
(08:28):
you're not acknowledging thefact that people are in a state
of Cass, if you're not helpingthem bring predictability and
comfort, if you're not, ifyou're not bringing strength of
relationship, you're going tomiss out on that opportunity
because I will not be there withyou when it's time to really
move forward.
That was a long way around thebarn, Kyle, and I apologize.
You know, what I love about whatyou set up is one of the things
(08:52):
that I've been, uh, I've beenpersonally frustrated with in
watching how companies areresponding
Kyle Hamer (08:57):
is there's this, there's this sense of
disingenuousness where theleaders or the, the, the
appointed head of anorganization or head of a team
says one thing and behaves in atotally different way and
further perpetuates the chaoswhere, Hey, maybe the business
did have to make difficultdecisions or is having to do for
(09:20):
Lowe's in, in, in the way thatthe messages communicated, the
way that the people aresupported don't align it with
what type of leader, what typeof message has been being
propagated by that person foryears.
So as all of a sudden it's like,Oh, all of a sudden the business
required me to behave completelydifferent from myself.
(09:40):
How do I, how do I get those twoto be congruent again?
Right?
So it's like the, uh, the, theexample somebody gave me
yesterday was, um, they wereflying an airplane and they flew
into Cumulus clouds.
They were flying for two tothree minutes and then the
flight instructor looked overand said, Hey, take, take a
sense.
Are you, are you right set up,are you upside down?
(10:02):
When the person said, I thinkI'm right side up, I flew out of
the closet and they were upsidedown and so I immediately was
like, yeah, so you know you needto, you need to be able to
instrument stuff and fly by dataand insights.
And they said, well, yes and no.
If you're in a dog fight, whichis what many businesses and
organizations are in right now,you have to be able to fly by
(10:24):
instinct and make quickdecisions and react accordingly.
But that may not be the way thatyou've established the the brand
or the message or the tone ofthe organization.
How do leaders synthesize those?
Like how do you, how do they getpermission to get buy in that,
Hey, we're doing what's best forthe organization right now?
What it's counter to what maybewe've said over the last 90 120
(10:47):
days or even the last three tofive years.
Bill Eckstrom (10:50):
That's wow.
How long do we have Kyle?
Kyle Hamer (10:56):
No.
I think tactically
Bill Eckstrom (10:59):
now was a time where leaders and coaches need
to Mo more than ever if theyhaven't, but turn to their
teams, they need to become morecollaborative.
They need to get the team buyin.
If you think any leader has theedge on all the knowledge on
(11:21):
what's going to happen to thefuture, you're wrong.
The cumulative, the cumulativewisdom, the collective wisdom
and power of a team of peoplecan certainly help you.
So that's in my mind, whereleaders need to go is they need
to focus first on relationshipswith the people on their teams.
(11:42):
That brings the healthy orderthat I was talking about
earlier.
There's certainly one of thesteps, and I've got a white
paper coming out next week thataddresses this, but then turn
and begin to engage your peoplelike you never have before.
Met them in on things.
The president of our company,Sarah and I were talking today
(12:04):
about how we're going todisclose to the people on our
team financial informationthey've never seen before.
We want them to know theposition we're in.
We want them to know that we'regoing to be okay.
We want them to to see what weneed in renewals and new sales
and those things so we cancontinue on as healthy business.
They're going to be moreinvolved in what we're doing as
(12:27):
a company than they ever have asa result of this.
So I think that's the first stepis is two steps.
Number one, developing thatrelationship, a stronger bond
with the people on your team.
And then number two, becomingcollaborative with them.
Tap into that so you can gatherthe collective wisdom of the
group.
Kyle Hamer (12:46):
Is there a third step where those are those the
two corner cornerstones?
Bill Eckstrom (12:50):
I could probably come up with another five.
I had enough time, but I would,if people did that, that would
be huge.
It would just be huge becauseyou know, we're seeing right now
that, Oh, I don't want to sayhere, over 50% of the people
(13:12):
have, you know, are really, Ithink over 60% of the people are
not sure how to perform theirjob effectively moving forward
from our coven 19 research.
That's a problem is six, six outof 10 year people say, I don't
know how I'm going to beeffective over the next 90 days.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Okay,
Bill Eckstrom (13:37):
we've got some issues you've got to work out.
So again, there's thatcommunication and tapping into
those people.
Kyle Hamer (13:44):
I'm going to circle back to that because I think
that that's, that's really, uh,something really important that
we need to explore.
But before we go there, I wannaI want to ask a question as it
relates to, um, the type of, of,of leader type of, um,
perspective you need to have inorder to be effective.
You said that the two keys righthere are focused on
(14:05):
relationships and engaged likeyou never have before.
The things that you're doingExcel Institute and with your
business is you're creating alevel of transparency and
openness that you've never hadto do before.
What are some of the elementsthat you're, you need to have as
a leader?
What are some of the things thatmaybe you're going to grapple
with?
You've got to overcome in orderto be able to be do one and two
(14:26):
effectively because they may bethings that are not like, Hey,
I'm a leader.
I'm not supposed to tell you allthe information.
Hey, I'm a leader.
I'm not supposed to look like Idon't know what's going on.
Hey, I'm a leader.
Like what are the elements thatyou've got to work through or,
or things that you can lean intoto help you be comfortable in
those positions that may not bewhat your strong suit has been
up to this point?
Bill Eckstrom (14:47):
Well, I just experienced one of them this
morning and I could share thatwith you.
One of my challenges as a leaderthat is important.
We, we see it in our research,that vulnerability as an
example.
And, and let me preface this bysaying, as coaches and leaders
(15:12):
of teams, we're using thismoment as an excuse for
evolution, but we shouldn't needit.
The R this is going to force usinto behaving differently.
A lot of leaders behavingdifferently, but sadly as
leaders what we need to see ismore people really studying and
(15:36):
understanding theireffectiveness, using data to
understand how effective we are.
And that's one of the thingsthat we do is we really help
people from a data perspectiveknow what their strengths are as
coaches, leaders knowing whattheir gaps are.
So having said that, one of thegaps I know I have is a
vulnerability.
(15:57):
And I was expressing, I behavedin a way recently, Kyle, for
reasons you're likely aware ofand not afraid to share.
I lost my father last Friday.
And while to use your term, I'mkind of a stoic one when it
comes to things like this, Idon't get overly emotional,
(16:19):
obviously.
I love my dad dearly and I'msorry to see him gone and I miss
him already.
What I wasn't aware of is how itwas already impacting my
behaviors.
Now I am a guy who journalsevery morning and I do
gratitudes every morning.
I meditate five times a week.
I am really into understandinghow my behaviors impact others.
(16:43):
Wow.
Did I see this stressmanifesting in a shorter temper
with people on my team this lastweek and just this morning I was
on the phone with our presidentwhere she was questioning my
response to a couple itemsrecently and I had to take a
long breath and say to her say,listen, I'm sorry, but she knew
(17:07):
my father had passed and I said,I think that is impacting more
than more than I know I a yearago six, I'll say a year ago, I
would never would have admittedthat maybe even six months ago
or two months ago.
I would never have admittedadmitted that.
But that's an example of I thinkwhere we as leaders have to just
(17:28):
really share what's in ourhearts.
And that is not a soft side ofleadership.
That is the stuff that helpspeople grow, that helps teams
grow.
So I don't know if that'sanswering your question, but
vulnerability would certainly beone of those items that people
need to fall back on.
We talked about relationships.
You know, we've been tellingpeople since this kit, you've
(17:50):
got to communicate with theirpeople more than you ever have.
You need to get out there, youneed to be texting them.
You need to be calling them.
You need to understand how theywant to communicate and quit
talking about business all thetime.
Talk about their life at home,talk about their office, get
their kids on the next zoomcall, let them say hi to their
kids.
We're on a call.
Those are the other things thatthey need to be doing is letting
(18:11):
people, they know they careabout them beyond just an
employee.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah.
Kyle Hamer (18:23):
Taking that position, taking that position
of vulnerability.
And uh, what's the old saying?
People don't care how much youknow until they know how much
you care.
What kind of impact do you seethat happening having on the six
out of 10 people understandinghow to be effective at their
job.
If, if, if an organization or aleader can begin being
(18:44):
vulnerable and begin talkingthrough and being honest,
transparent with themselves,leaning into other people's
lives at the, at the personlevel, how does that help solve
the challenge that you're seeingaround people don't know how to
be effective around 610 well
Bill Eckstrom (19:03):
that's a really good question and I'm, and I'm
thinking about my response tothat Kyle.
First and foremost, I thinkwhen, cause let's face it, not
everybody has the answer.
I think consciously, not thatwe're doing everything right,
but we're really working hard tohelp our everybody.
(19:23):
And we have a smaller team butit doesn't matter cause
everybody has a team of peoplethat rolls up to them.
Third, if they're in a coachingrole, whether it's athletes or
whether it's a sales team orwhether it's an executive team,
the letting people know how muchyou care, buys you time.
(19:47):
In other words, Hey, I don'tknow exactly what I'm supposed
to be doing for the next 90days, but here's what I do know
my boss cares about me and so Iam willing to live in this state
or be in this state a whilelonger because I know you have
my best interest at heart.
(20:10):
That's what I believe it doesmore than anything and, and then
it also provides psychologicalsafety for me to come forward
and say, Hey, here's somethingthat I could be doing.
If I don't have that environmentwith my manager, with my leader,
(20:31):
with my coach, with my boss,you're not going to hear that
from me.
Kyle Hamer (20:38):
It sounds to me like what you're saying is, you know,
in being more collaborative andfocusing on relationships and
then being transparent thatyou're teams out of a state of
chaos as it relates to businessand work and into a state of
order as it relates torelationships.
What's gives them the foundationthat they need to be more
productive?
Bill Eckstrom (20:59):
Yeah, the first of all, we, when we, when we
study high performing teams, thebase of the pyramid, what's
endemic to them all aretrust-based relationships.
And this goes from athleticteams, high-performing,
athletic, athletic teams, allthe way up to high performing
business teams.
(21:19):
The foundation is trust-basedrelationships.
So yes, that that has to becreated.
Now I can't remember your entirequestion.
I think I only answered part ofit.
No, just I guess I was justtrying to summarize it as we
start where we started
Kyle Hamer (21:37):
and kind of what we were talking about the front is,
is we're all in a state of chaosright now.
Like everywhere is chaotic.
And one of the things that youcalled out early on was, is that
we need to move to a state oforder and the quicker we can get
to order, the better our peoplewill be.
Bill Eckstrom (21:52):
Yeah.
So, so the best, the mosthealthy order anybody could ever
have and to keep in mind orderswhat?
Understanding inputs and havingpredictable outcomes the most,
the best order you could everprovide me is order around.
Uh, my trust in you and yourtrust in me.
(22:13):
Don't ever, ever make me guessas to whether or not you care
about me as a person.
Kyle, if you're my boss, if Ican just check the box and know
that Hey, no matter whathappens, Kyle cares about me as
a person.
I don't want to have to guessthat.
The second I'm questioning yourfaith in me, your trust in me,
you get your care about me isthat's, that's when I begin to
(22:37):
shelter that.
So I begin to not perform.
That's when I began to go on astate of chaos.
Kyle Hamer (22:43):
So what do you think, I mean you, I mean
you've, you've, you've hit on,you've hit on notes of it, but
if you, if we look back sixmonths from now at the teams,
the companies, the leaders, theperformers that performed the
best through this state ofchaos, what do you think the
three to five attributes are ofthat particular team?
Bill Eckstrom (23:05):
Wow, let's have another podcast and I'll be able
to tell you based on ourresearch exactly what they are,
but I'm going to come back tonumber one, relationships still
trust-based relationships.
I think those organizations thatare creating this with the
people that keep mine, so manypeople are having to Mae off
(23:28):
people.
There's furloughs.
And I am not saying thoseshouldn't be happening.
My goodness.
So it should happen.
I understand it.
Those, you know, people aretrying to survive, but what you
don't know, what organizationsare don't understand is while
they're probably looking attheir people that haven't been
furloughed, that are still onboard and they're thinking to
(23:51):
themselves, Hey, they're luckythey still have their job.
And perhaps those people feelthat way.
But how did the fact that theyhave a colleague and a friend
and older has a job, how doesthat making them feel?
How do we know how it'simpacting their ability to
perform at work?
Because we see it, like I said,fight, flight and freeze are
results of chaos.
(24:12):
Productivity will drop and isdropping obviously.
So what will come out of this?
What are the two or threethings?
I don't know.
I'm going to, I'm going to basedon the science of our growth
rings.
So like I said, relationshipnumber one and number two,
they'd better find that state oforder to give people some
predictable outcomes, get themin a state of comfort.
(24:32):
So when we come out of the scene, we can get back into
complexity and growth mode in ahurry.
Kyle Hamer (24:38):
Well, and I think, I think the thing that, um, at
least for me personally as Ilistened to you talk through the
growth rings and talk throughthe, the elements here, the part
that that really propels the,um, the state of order or the
productivity, right?
I mean if you furloughed, if youhad a, you know, an organization
(25:00):
I know laid off well over ourfurloughed, excuse me, well over
150 people and just yesterday, alot of them people that I know
very closely, and I mean youintroduced a state of chaos
where 20% of the workforce isgone.
You've lost all of that capacityand production gone.
Then you have the emotionalimpact of the people that are
(25:23):
left, right?
There's the, well, if we don'tpull through this, am I the next
one that's on the furlough andwhat it would, it seems like to
me or what I hear you saying, mytakeaways here would be as is
the quicker you can focus ontheir relationship and and not
giving people platitudes of,Hey, everything's going to be
okay, but helping them focus ontheir safe with you, no matter
what the business outcome is,that they're safe with you as a
(25:45):
leader or as a coach or as ateammate, creating that safety,
the transparency of, Hey, Idon't know either like getting
them into that state of order.
Where are, there's some somebalance and some, some comfort
if you will, in therelationship.
And Hey, I can trust what'scoming that will move the order
(26:06):
to where you can then actuallybegin working on the business
problem, which is we've got tofix production and we've got to
fix whatever our output is.
And you'll have the doublewhammy.
Like it's fixed one cause youcan and then the other you can
work on together,
Bill Eckstrom (26:19):
right?
Yes.
So to put that in in a realisticsense like you were just
describing, which is what wewere talking about this morning
within our own organization.
So we have those relationships,those trust-based relationships.
We work hard at those.
We do things like every Fridaywe have a, uh, kind of a, uh,
covert gathering on, on zoom.
(26:42):
So we all get on board, kidscome in and out.
People might have a cocktail andwe'd do anything except talk
business.
Everybody's kind of checking inwith each other with random
texts.
Some phone calls, very sinks too, just to see how everybody's
doing.
So we're checking that box onrelationship.
But now, where else?
(27:02):
What other order can we givethem?
Well, financial order.
Okay guys, to your pointearlier, here's the reality of
our situation is most cash wehave in the bank, here's
renewals coming in.
If we may know more new sales,here's the number of months we
can last and exists where wedon't have to worry.
Okay?
(27:23):
With new sales, with a, youknow, 20% of hitting our target,
here's how long we last 30 40 50so now there's no guessing games
people can see.
It's predictable.
I get it, I see it.
So we're removing that fear of,well, bill says we're okay, but
(27:43):
what does that mean?
Well, let's define what okay isbecause what's okay to me may be
different than what is okay toyou.
So I'm just going to give youthe information and, and that's
one of the things, Hey man, I'vebeen seeing that on LinkedIn
lately.
A lot of people, you know, kindof that old football coach just
trying to get people backselling again.
Everybody used to suck it up andget going.
(28:04):
Yeah, it's been hard, but wereally need it.
That is so gone.
That is so ridiculous that asleaders to assume that everybody
is going to behave like youwould just suck it up and go
sell.
I'm not saying that we don'tneed to, but if that's your
approach to getting people outthere and you need to find a
(28:26):
different role, that'sridiculous.
I'll just give you an amen forthat cause that's pervasive.
It just shocks me.
I see these messages.
I'm LinkedIn and I just want toshake the person by the
shoulders and say wake up andreally get to know your people.
(28:47):
Anyway.
Enough on that.
I don't know if there's anythingwe could see more eye to eye
than on that one bill.
Cause there's a lot ofknuckleheads out there that are,
that are the old propaganda ofsuck it up buttercup.
You know, smile and dial and ifyou're not, if you're not
closing, there's something wrongwith you, not the market and
(29:09):
right.
It's come on.
Times have changed, they arechanging.
Nobody knows what it's going tolook like.
But here's what I know is thatpeople are affected today.
So they better figure out howthey're affected and cater to
that.
And my ability as a coach, Ican't treat all 15 players the
same way on a basketball team.
I got a coach 15 different ways.
That means I have to know 15different individuals and I
(29:31):
can't just say suck it up andgo, well then I think you know,
it's man, right on, right on theback heels of that you've got,
you've got different marketsthat
Kyle Hamer (29:41):
are affected differently, right?
So you have some markets thatare in survival mode.
Hey, if I'm calling into NewYork city right now, and that's
my territory as an example, as asalesperson, they're in survival
mode.
I can't suck it up.
I'm not doing much commerce.
And if you don't have the, um,emotional intelligence where
they, you know, theperceptibility to be like, well,
(30:02):
you just got to call more had,who hasn't seen the picture of
time square completely empty,right?
They're there.
They're in survival mode.
There are other businesses thatare in adapt right there.
They're saying, okay, well I'mtrying to figure out how to
navigate and move through this.
And then there are otherbusinesses and other places
where there's high growth
Speaker 3 (30:21):
[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (30:22):
organizations or sales leaders I think probably
need to take a giant breath andlook at their team and talking
to salespeople specifically.
But I think this is more broadbrush, brush stroke for all
leaders.
Take a breath and look at whatyour team is facing, not only in
the business world, but at home.
Bill Eckstrom (30:40):
Yeah, Kyle, that's, that's well said.
And again, I'm not braggingabout what we've done, we've
just, but I'll share with youanother story because it fits in
well with what you said.
For us to move forward asprospecting as usual, as
(31:00):
servicing as usual.
Just felt wrong.
It didn't feel right.
Are we taking care of ourcustomers?
Of course we are.
But we have the capacity to do alot of things that we couldn't
do anything with.
So what we did is we took ourresearch department, we know
(31:21):
we're great at understanding theimpact organizations, leaders,
environments have on people.
So we thought, okay, let's putthis into some COBIT research.
And that's what we did that I'vereferred to a couple of times
and we gathered together a, wecreated a 12 question survey
where organizations can send itout to as many people as they
(31:44):
want in their teams.
And it's a two minute survey andwe will give them a report, the
organization within 24 hours tounderstand how this pandemic is
affecting their individuals, howit's affecting their perception
of their future with theorganization, how it's impacting
their ability to perform.
(32:05):
And it's actionable information.
And here's the best part.
We're doing it for free.
Any organization that wants totake part of this to really help
their people understand thatthey have a voice and help them
understand how it's impactingand which will then make you a
better coach and a betterleader.
They can do it for free.
So that's some of the things youcan do is say, Hey, go out and
(32:26):
sell.
Go out and do this.
Now let's look at some differentthings we can do.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (32:33):
what are you, I mean you've, you've, you've had this
out there for a while.
What are you seeing?
I mean I think that's where theout of 10 came from, right?
They don't know it'd beeffective in the next 90 days.
What else are you seeing?
Like what are the things, are weseeing that organizations like
the people in the visitorssaying, Hey, I need help here.
Hey, this is something that'snot clear to me.
What else?
What else are you seeing inyour, in your study?
Bill Eckstrom (32:55):
What's, what's interesting are a few things.
Number one is the number ofpeople that aren't worried about
Covitz impact on thempersonally.
It's only 50% of the people or51% of the people are really
worried about the impact ofcoven on the personally, which
has to be some surprised thatbaby people are just blindly
(33:18):
going to work withoutunderstanding it or, I don't
know that one I don't grasp.
What's really good to see is thenumber of managers, coaches,
leaders that are reaching out tothe people on their teams more
frequently.
And we're seeing that a lot morenow than we did even a week ago.
(33:42):
And our research, there's been alot more communication, a lot
more proactive reaching out topeople.
We're seeing that of all themediums people right now, they
want a phone call more.
It's more than the video, morethan uh, uh, texts.
(34:03):
They want a phone call, theywant, they want to hear a voice,
which I thought was really coolto see.
So those, and there's someothers that I can't think about
the top of my head, but thoseare some of the things we're
seeing with within organizationsright now.
Oh.
And the last being that they'restill looking for their meters
to communicate plans.
(34:25):
They still need that plan.
They have to know what theirfuture is going to be.
That that's what, that's whatthey're wanting most from their
leaders is that communication ofwhat's our future going to look
like.
Kyle Hamer (34:37):
It's, um, I find it ironic that the elements that
you just hit on, um, in manyways are the elements that
whether it's Excel Institute orsome of the other organizations
you've seen, but there's a,there's a small company that got
a lot of accolades for some veryoutrageous things they did years
(34:59):
ago.
Gravity payments.
Are you familiar with gravity,Dan?
Price on gravity payments.
I am not so Googling whenyou're, when you're done.
But Dan is a CEO that basicallyhe raised everybody's wage in
the company to what do you callthe living wage, which was
$70,000 or more.
Thank you.
With your minimum you would makeworking for gravity payments was
70.
(35:20):
And he did this five years agoand people were like, you're
crazy.
You're going to go out ofbusiness.
There's a lot of reasons why hedid that.
But covert 19 hit and themajority of the folks that
gravity was working with aresmall businesses.
So your uh, you know, your, yourrestaurants, your hair salon,
stylists, service basedindustries that were immediately
(35:41):
impacted because of the, becauseof the virus and the
stakeholders.
He sat down with his company, helaid out and he said basically
we've got, I remember it wasfour or five months where their
cash, we're going to have tomake changes.
We can either choose to losecertain people or you guys can
do a voluntary pay cut.
(36:03):
First round of voluntary pay cutmeant the business, I think it
was, it lasted another 18 monthsbased on what people were
willing to voluntarily give uptheir income for being a part of
the organization.
He was honest, he wastransparent, he laid out the
plan and what they saw was isthat the people responded well
to exactly what you're talkingabout, transparency, having a
(36:25):
plan and then ultimately knowhow they fit and could
contribute to that to ensuretheir own sense of order.
Bill Eckstrom (36:32):
Yeah.
And that's in what you justdescribed as a wonderful story
of how that can be done.
And then, and that's how busy,that's how great businesses will
respond.
There's one thing to say.
Our people come first andthere's the other thing to live
the fact that our people comefirst.
So that was a good story.
Kyle Hamer (36:52):
Well thanks.
Um, well look, we can, we couldsit here and we could chat
forever and ever if you're opento it.
What I would love to hear ismaybe your favorite or most
poignant moment as the seventhgrade dropout slash high school,
college challenged kid, but thatbiggest impact your dad had on
(37:13):
your life or, or one of the bestmemories that you have you to
share that that would be, thatwould be awesome for us.
Bill Eckstrom (37:19):
Wow.
Uh, first of all, Kyle, thankyou for that opportunity.
Let's see if I can do thatwithout crying right now.
The biggest impact that my dadhad on my life.
It's not a moment.
(37:40):
It's a way of life.
The, um, my dad lived a life ofintegrity.
Yeah.
He, he worked, I said collect alot of the people in the
greatest generation.
You got up every day he went towork.
(38:01):
He had nothing as a kid,nothing.
I remember one of the storieswhen he's talking about how he
had come back as a sophomore inhigh school and he made the
track team and his dad said, areyou starting?
Are you number one?
And my dad said, no.
But I think if I keep workinghard coaches, I got a lot of
talent.
He said, I think I can be bylater in the year and my
(38:23):
grandfather's responsible, hegot to quit because I need you
working more than the track teamneeds you.
So the dad had to go back toschool and tilt the track team.
He couldn't participate anymore.
So it's those things that when Ilook back, the way I treat
people, I learned from him thetrust and belief.
(38:45):
My dad is huge.
He was a great coach, he washuge.
And he had what what we nowrefer to as the developmental
bias.
He would see things in people,wonderful things in people.
And as a kid, I used to watchhim, the way he looked at people
and the way he treated people, Ithink, wow, what does he see
that I don't see?
And then those things.
So I would say the, the way hetreated people and the way he
(39:09):
always tried to get the most outof others was, was one of those
things.
The work ethic was another inhis honesty and integrity was
another.
Those are all things that havereally impacted in fact of my
life in a wonderful way.
So thank you for thatopportunity.
(39:30):
Thank you for sharing.
Yeah, thank you.
Kyle Hamer (39:32):
Sure.
And thank you for being generoustoday.
I mean, we've, we've appreciatedhaving your time, your insight
and years of, of research andexperience.
It's been a fantasticconversation, understanding how
leaders can really impact changeand navigating, you know, world,
the world of turmoil that's outthere.
So thank you for being heretoday, bill.
Bill Eckstrom (39:52):
Kyle, thank you so much.
Best of luck to you and thanksfor asking wonderfully poignant
questions.
Kyle Hamer (40:00):
My pleasure.
For those of you listening, thishas been some, my podcast with
bill Ekstrom and Kyle hammer.
We appreciate you taking time.
We want you to know that thereis positivity in the world, even
though it seems like it's chaosoutside until next week.
This is Karen.
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