December 29, 2020 • 46 mins
The world is filled with stories that transform industries. The story of how 20 refugees transformed the nail industry will keep help you see what curiosity can do for your career, your team, and for an industry.
TedX speaker Van DuMone shares her story and tips on how you can use curiosity and happiness to move into your life's work.
About Van DuMone
Van is the founder of worksmart. A progressive team development and leadership training consultancy that utilizes creativity, play, and experiential learning to evolve mindset, skill sets, and behaviors in the workplace. Her work is built on the foundation that we are all creative, good ideas can come from any level of an organization, and by cultivating idea sharing in the workplace, everyone has a chance to have their voice heard. And when that happens - company culture, performance, and innovation can skyrocket! She recently shared her work in a TEDx Talk titled, ‘What if? The Life Changing Power of Curiosity’.
Van studied Psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara and earned her MBA from Pepperdine University. With over 15 years of corporate and start-up experience, Van actively works to rewrite the way we apply creativity in the workplace, inviting clients to think with their hands and use right brain creative tools to disrupt traditional training methods. Her clients include gamechangers such as Google, LinkedIn, and Pandora.
About Kyle Hamer
A sales and marketing veteran with a deep understanding of strategy, digital marketing execution, and using technology to enhance brand impact. A hands-on leader with a passion for solving business challenges with process, operations, and technology. When Kyle's not tinkering on businesses, you'll find him spending time with those he loves, learning about incredible people, and making connections.
About Hamer Marketing Group
Market growth for a new product or service is often limited by market distractions, unreliable data, or systems not built to scale. Hamer Marketing Group helps companies build data-driven strategies focused on client acquisition and sales development supported by the technology and operations necessary to create profitable growth.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:00):
Welcome to the summit.
A podcast focused on bringingyou the knowledge and insights
for industry leaders.
I'm your host Kyle Hamer, andI'm on a mission to help you
exceed your potential.
As a sales guy, turned marketer,I am passionate about building
sustainable businesses.
And if there's one thing I'velearned in my 20 year career is
that you won't find an overnightgrowth scheme, a shortcut to
(00:20):
success or way to hack yourselfto the top.
Nope.
Success is the by-product ofhard work, great relationships
and deep understanding done overand over.
We're here to help you unlockthat success with some secrets
from other people, oneconversation at a time.
Kyle Hamer (00:34):
Welcome back to another episode of The Summit
Podcast.
I'm your host, Kyle Hamer today.
Our show's guest is Van Demone.
And I'm assuming it's France.
Is that right, Van?
There i s a whole story behindthat is not French.
Oh no, I should probably tellthat accent then.
Yeah.
Van Demone (00:53):
What it is a French last name.
My husband is from Greece and ishis con artists.
Father was trying to open aFrench restaurant.
So changed the name to Domo fromSpilly topless.
Kyle Hamer (01:06):
Oh, you're well, look, the moon's a whole lot
easier to say than
Van Demone (01:10):
That's true.
Yes.
A lot easier to write down toomany.
I don't know how many lettersisn't[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (01:17):
Well, you know, when you say con artists, father,
like that just has to make forsome fantastic holiday.
Van Demone (01:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Maybe we just change the wholetheme of this podcast.
Kyle Hamer (01:29):
No, let's not.
Let's not.
Let's focus on the positive.
For those of you who don't know,van van is the founder of
WorkSmart she's a progressiveteam development and leadership
training consultancy.
She utilizes creativity, playexperimental learning to help
involve things like mindset andskillsets and behaviors inside
your workplace.
(01:50):
Her work is built on thefoundation that we're all
creative.
Good ideas can really come fromanywhere.
And everyone inside of anorganization have a chance for
their voice to be heard.
Van has, what is the, what doyou call it is an author, no
speaker and Ted talks Ted talks,ex ex her episode, or her Ted
(02:11):
talk is called.
What if the life changing powerof curiosity?
I had a chance to watch that Iwould highly recommend you go
out and watch it.
Outside of that, she's highlydecorated academic, incredibly
involved with localorganizations like the honors
foundation.
And when she's not doing thatand working with companies like
LinkedIn and Pandora, Google,you'll find her hanging out with
(02:34):
guys like me on podcasts ortaking care of her family.
Does that sound about right?
Van Demone (02:39):
Well, I don't know who you're talking about it.
She sounds amazing.
Kyle Hamer (02:43):
Sounds like the person I'm talking to.
Van Demone (02:45):
That was great.
Thank you.
Yeah, that sounds just aboutright.
And I'm tired.
I know what I'm so tired.
There's a lot of things I'mdoing.
Kyle Hamer (02:52):
No kidding.
Like you might, you might needto, you know, sit down for a
minute just yeah.
Right.
Five minutes,
Van Demone (02:57):
Sit down for a minute.
That's awesome.
Kyle Hamer (03:00):
No, and today's today's topic thing we were
going to talk about on today'sshow is happiness, finding
happiness in your work, in howyou can be fulfilled through
creativity, exploration, andjust being curious.
But before we get too far intothat topic, what I'd really like
to start with is if you wouldshare with us just a little bit
(03:22):
about your backstory and if Iremember correct, your backstory
really starts was it two weeksor two days before you turned to
,
Van Demone (03:30):
It was about, about the two or three weeks before I
turned two.
Kyle Hamer (03:34):
Well, why don't you, why don't you for our listeners
share love just a little bit ofthat story.
You don't have to get all theway into it, but just kind of
the, how did you get put onthis, this a path of creativity
and exploration and curiosity?
Van Demone (03:45):
Sure.
So it was definitely not astraight and narrow path.
So when I was two years old, wewere, I was born in Vietnam and
I was born right at the end ofthe Vietnam war almost two years
old to end the Vietnam war in1975.
And my dad was a Colonel in theSouth Vietnamese air force.
So we had to get out of there.
And on the day, Saigon fell tothe communist party.
(04:09):
He was told to get his familyout of the country any way he
could.
So we found a way out.
And our first home here was inCalifornia, was camp penicillin,
Marine base in San Diego.
And then from there, we weresent to an integration center up
in Sacramento called hopevillage.
And it was there that my mom metTippi Hedren, a Hollywood movie
star, who was a volunteer there,who is her, her position.
(04:32):
There was to help these womenfind a career to start their new
lives.
So be abroad in like aseamstress and a typist because
those were careers are fairlyeasy to learn and easy to get
into.
But my mom had a group of otherVietnamese we had about 90 other
women were just curious aboutTimmy's long red manicure nails.
So that led them down this pathof saying what EFT curiosity,
(04:53):
right?
Curiosity led, led them to saywhat F so with that, what if
tippy brought in her personalmanicures to teach him how to do
nails?
And then from there they lovedit.
So Tiffany said, well, what ifwe actually get these women
licensed as heroes?
So she went to the local beautyschool and asked them if they
would take on these 20 women whodid speak English, who who
couldn't afford tuition, theywould take them on as students.
(05:14):
And that school said, yes.
So 10 weeks later, these 20women all got tested, did their
practicum and were licensedmanicures.
And they went off into the, inthe world and each of them
started doing nails and it wasthe refugees and immigrants who
came after us, who learned aboutthe profession from their
friends and their friends fromthem.
(05:34):
And now 40 something.
Plus years later, it's an$8.3billion industry.
And whenever I do this talk, Ialways start with the question,
like, how many of you had yournails done by Vietnamese
manicures?
And I would say 99% of the roomalways raises their hands
because that's just the industrythat we, that we've kind of
taken over because of thekindness of Tippi Hedren and the
(05:57):
curiosity of these 20 women.
So it's quite the history.
Kyle Hamer (06:02):
Well, and it's, it's, it's quite a, as you said,
it's not a straight and narrowpath, so it's quite an
adventurous route to get you towhere you are today.
Additionally, it's really,really interesting to me that
the similarities between one,the butterfly effect and just a
simple gesture of kindness, whatthat meant for the revolution
(06:23):
or, or disruption of an entireindustry, as well as you look
at, you know, 40 years ago.
No, but you know, you ask, hasanybody had their nails done by
a Vietnamese manicurist?
And they'd be like, you know,maybe, maybe one in a thousand
or one in 10,000 and now like,it's the opposite.
If it's not somebody who'sVietnamese doing that, you know,
(06:46):
they're like, well, where areyou getting your nails done?
Like what's what's happening.
So there was a, there's a marketdisruption.
And in that journey, now youtake that and you've turned that
into your Ted talk.
We really have these kind ofthree core defining principles.
And I'd like to start there in,in kind of as our backstop for
talking about happiness, becausethose three, those three
(07:09):
elements are really, reallyimportant.
What are they?
Van Demone (07:12):
So I talk about this within this or my Frameline for
the story, with this idea offollowing curiosity.
Right.
And I, and I love this conceptbecause I feel like we're all as
human beings, very curious, butwe're often too busy to even
acknowledge our curiosities.
So really to recognize whenyou're curious about something
(07:34):
and then taking that minute tosay like, what, and then the
next one is like, what F right.
So taking that curiosity like,well, what if, what if I
followed down this path of, ofthis curiosity, what could that
look like?
And then taking small steps toget there?
Cause I think often, like if,even if you can get past the
idea that I'm too busy, I can'teven think about it.
Curiosity, even if you can getto the point where like, Oh
yeah, I recognize that.
I noticed I had that curiosity.
(07:56):
And then we start think aboutpossibilities sometimes that's
where we end because like, Oh,well that's never going to have
a great, I'm curious about that,but that possibility because of
whatever it might be because ofthe limitations on the, I put it
on my own life.
That's not that possibly isactually a reality for me.
So I'm going to move on.
But when we add on that laststep of taking a small step, you
(08:16):
take away the overwhelm of thisbeing an impossibility, and you
change it to just one smallaction that you can do to get
you closer to whatever thatpossibility might be.
Kyle Hamer (08:30):
Now you use that as kind of the three back backbones
and, and frameworks for what youknow, what you talk about in
your Ted talk, how things areyou know, we talked about in
your Ted talk and then how yourun your, your organization work
smart, right?
Like you you've had a careerthat's been built on kind of
(08:52):
this be curious explore it abit.
And, and then, you know, withthe, the, what if, and then
taking these small steps, why isthat so powerful for people?
Is it, is it because that we arescared by the big unknown in
the, the big risk or when, whyis that such an empowering thing
(09:12):
for helping people find their,their way and their happiness?
Van Demone (09:15):
Well, I think that's exactly right as humans, we are,
we're built to be fearful ofchange.
And I read a book and by Dr.
Robert Mauer called one smallstep can change your life the
Kaizen way.
And he's since become a mentorof mine.
And what I love about that bookis it gave neurological and
(09:36):
neurological reasoning for whywe act like this, right?
So the part of our brain there'sthe amygdala and way back when
that Amelia was, was a sense offear.
Like if we were, you know, ifAline was about to attack, you
know, founding lives like fightor flight, it triggers fight or
flight, but now we're, we livein this environment is there's
so many stressors.
There's so much going on that,that, that thing's kind of going
(09:57):
off all the time.
So when we come up with like abig grant idea, that's going to
shift our lives.
Like I want to start a newcareer, I'm going to move to
another country, whatever itmight be.
If you come up with these grandideas, the first thing that's
gonna happen in your brain isthat Megan is going to wake up
like what, like, that soundsdangerous.
That doesn't sound like what weknow.
So we're gonna, I'm gonna, I'mgonna put out these newer
(10:20):
receptors that say stop, right.
And, and that stops you frommaking any moves at all.
But the way I put it in my TEDxtalk is that when we take small
steps towards our big audaciousgoal, you're typic tiptoeing
around that amygdala.
So it stays asleep so that youcan actually reach your goal by
taking one small step at a time,rather than getting into that
stage of that state of fight orflight.
Kyle Hamer (10:46):
And so when, I mean, when you're, when you're
navigating through this andyou're, you're moving through
this this, this phase of fightor flight, you know, I think
it's pretty simple to go, Ohyeah, that's a lion.
I don't want to get eaten, stayaway.
It might be a little bit lessobvious what's happening to your
body as to why we would shutthings down.
Talk a little bit about how you,you teach people to break
(11:08):
through that or to tiptoe aroundthat, to, to still maintain
their level of curiosity andasking what if, but doing so in
a safe way so that they can,they can find that unexpected,
happiness, or find thatunexpected satisfaction in, in
something that they never knewthat maybe they would enjoy or
even was on their, on theirpath.
Van Demone (11:29):
Sure.
So my, so my work is in bringingthis whole concept of creativity
into the workplace, and I'll let, let me start back there
because what I, I grew up verycreative.
I was always very creative,human being, but I also grew up
in a refugee Asian family where,where you're going to be a
doctor.
So why do you need creativity?
(11:49):
You can be an engineer.
So you, why do you needcreativity?
Right.
So, so it nurtured in myhousehold.
And this, as I got older, Ireally just followed that path
of, of getting a degree, gettinga graduate degree, getting a job
in the corporate environment.
And I found myself very unhappythere.
So what I did was I had theprivilege of leaving that
(12:09):
environment because my husbanddoes have a stable job in
career.
So I had the privilege ofleaving my job and going down
this path of following mycuriosity, asking what had been
taking small steps to growingthe business I have now.
But what I realized is that noteveryone has that privilege.
I often talk about you hearpeople say, just do what you
love, do what you love.
(12:30):
Not everyone has that privilegeor that opportunity.
So what I teach is takesomething you love into what you
do.
So, so that is often how I talkabout, about this idea of, if
you're curious about something,you don't have to blow up your
life to pursue it, right.
You can think of all thepossibilities and some of
(12:50):
possibilities may be soaudacious.
It scares you.
Some possible possibilities maybe smaller, more attainable, but
pick one pick.
And just because you pick onedoesn't mean the breasts are
unattainable or that therestaurant invalid, it's just,
let's start with one, start withone possibility.
And then what you can do is takeone small step.
Let's say you want to start anew career, right?
(13:11):
You're not like, so do you knowsomeone who works at a career
have a conversation with them,read a book about it.
So just one small step, and thenwhat will come after that small
step is either another smallstep or nothing at all.
Right?
And then you can move on to,okay, well, what other
curiosities I have?
I think what, what happens is ashuman beings, we think way far
(13:32):
into the distant future and belike, okay, well, here's what
I'm curious about.
Here are the possibilities andhow do I get from a to Z?
But what we realize is that the,if you actually take those small
steps, it's not going to looklike what you think it looks
like, right?
You have zero idea what that'sactually going to look like.
If you really do take the timeto take small steps and let, let
(13:52):
the next small step emerge fromthat.
Kyle Hamer (13:56):
Now you, I mean, you've, we talked about in your,
you know, kind of your introthat you've worked with
companies like Google andLinkedIn Pandora.
I mean, you've, you've reallyworked with companies are, are
really progressive.
And so people might be, well,you know the word you chose was
privileged.
Those companies are privilegedenough to, to embrace that
(14:17):
creativity, to allow for thatexploration and in the what ifs,
why is it important thatcompanies say, no, no, no, this
isn't a privilege that this issomething that we should really
have afford or make part of ourculture.
Why, why is that so importantin, in, you know, in the
workspace, in places thatyou're, you know, you're, you're
(14:39):
serving.
Van Demone (14:40):
So I, I think there's, there's several
reasons.
Number one, creativity, becausecreativity is innate in all of
us.
If you give people theopportunity to, to their
creativity, then you're, you'retapping into something that we
all want to be able to do.
And I say this because fromexperience, like, even as
someone, if we have to go intoan office and like, Oh, like
(15:01):
creative stuff, like I'm, I'mnot creative.
I don't even want to becreative, but once you give them
the opportunity to tap into thatcreativity, they're the ones
that like, I have to say, like,you got to put down the paint
brushes now.
Right.
You have to put down the Legos,like it's time to move on.
So again, like one of thosethings where we're all creative.
So if a company allows people,the opportunity to tap into
(15:23):
whether it's like, like what Ido, like visual creative tools,
or even creative thinking you'reempowering those people, you
empower your people tounderstand, like, my voice has
my voice matters, my ideasmatter.
And so again, so on a, on a,like a sort of like a people
first type of level, you areengaging your employees to
(15:43):
realize like they matter to you,they matter to what happens is
organization.
And as far as for theorganization, by bringing in
these creative tools, you aretapping into everyone's
creativity.
And if you look at the companieswho are successful, small,
large, whatever, you have peoplethink creatively, you have
people innovating all the time,you can't stay stagnant and
(16:04):
grow.
You can't stay stagnant andsurvive.
So, so yeah.
So if you think in terms of justsurvival, that's why he's
important.
Kyle Hamer (16:15):
But again, that goes back to the fight or flight,
right?
It may be your organization'sway of saying, Hey, this is what
we need to do to survive.
You, you picked a couple ofwords that I think are they're
really relevant in the in theera, the, the social climate
that we're in the, the world, asit is means we're, we're
navigating this this pandemic,the words, empowerment
(16:38):
privilege.
And there was one more just Oh,it's gone.
Why do you, why do you thinkthose words are so important to
people who participate in your,in your classes or your
workshops in, in finding theirown, their own way towards
(16:59):
towards happiness?
Well, why is it that there, thewords empowerment or privileged
don't necessarily have to bederogatory or taking away from
their, their emboldening in, inhelping?
What, what is it about thosetopics that are so enriching to
the people who who get toparticipate in activities that
are supported by those, thosethemes?
Van Demone (17:20):
So I think for me, it comes down to the fact that,
you know, companies in the Fwhere we're at a different place
in, in the corporateenvironment, right?
So when I graduated fromundergrad, the grad school, when
I went in for an interview, itwas very clear to me.
Like this company isinterviewing me.
So I had to be at my best.
(17:40):
And if they at best, and if theywant me, I hope they want me
they'll hire me.
But I feel like there's a wholedifferent generation now where
it's not about that.
Companies know it, right.
When someone comes in for aninterview is a two-way street.
Like, is this the right culturefor me?
Is this a, is this the right fitfor me?
And, and there's, you know, likewe can make fun of like, Oh,
millennials, they'd rather belike, they're not going to get,
(18:02):
they're not going to take a job.
And this was the right fit forthem.
But I always think like theyhave, they've empowered all of
us to see work differently.
And, and it is like, and it's abeautiful thing.
Cause you think about how muchtime we spend at work.
We should feel empowered there.
We should feel that our voicematters.
And then on the opposite, notthe opposite, but I think with
(18:23):
corporations did a lot ofcompanies did, was like, okay,
well, great.
We do want to make these people.
I won't feel comfortable here.
So let's get a ping pong tableor let's supply snacks, or let's
go bowling together, which isall amazing and great.
I think there are good changes,but empowered and privileged.
I think those are words thatspeak more to the fact that
(18:45):
you're empowering andprivileging people.
And I wasn't used to being in aprivileged to be a right, to
have your voice heard in the, inthe workplace.
I think that's what my work doesis it's through these creative
tools, you're giving people whonormally don't have a voice, a
chance to have their voice heardand ultimately and you know,
studies have shown us surveyshave showed it.
Those ping pong tables aregreat.
(19:06):
The bully eyes are amazing, butpeople will stay if they feel
like their voice is heard andthey, and they are they're
respected in the workplace.
Kyle Hamer (19:17):
Well, I think that's, you know, I think those
are, those are great insights.
And I think it's, it speaks toyour true understanding of
what's happening kineticallyinside of, of corporates, as
well as, you know, the dynamicsof balancing between hiring and
getting the most out of aworkforce.
But it doesn't just happen incorporate America like this,
this place of finding surprisesand gotchas following your three
(19:37):
steps of, you know, curiosityand what F and then small steps,
this actually plays well in alot of places.
And you do some work with thehonor foundation.
Tell us a little bit about thatfoundation.
What, what, what the, what it'sabout, and then let's talk about
you know, the BS things inpractice.
Van Demone (19:58):
Sure.
Okay.
So the honor foundation is anorganization, a nonprofit
organization that works asmilitary special force
operators, Navy seals, MarineRangers, as they transition from
military to civilian careers.
And you could ask some of thesemen and women, what their
biggest fear is, and it's notthe battlefield is not what they
(20:20):
face in the military is thattransition time.
Right.
Kyle Hamer (20:24):
But why is that such a big fear for them?
Van Demone (20:27):
Think that, I mean, if you think about having been
in the military for many, manyof them for their whole career,
there's a certain culture there,right?
There's a, there's a specificculture of the military.
It's a tribe.
It's a, it's not just a job,it's their, it's their whole
life.
And to leave that to go into thecorporate world, is it civilian
(20:48):
civilian career?
There's so much unknown is allthat unknown.
So, so,
Kyle Hamer (20:55):
Okay.
Is it the, it was just say, isit, is you think it's the fear
of the lack of structure link oryou think that they're afraid
of?
Cause I mean, you guys that arespecial forces, right.
They're used to taking orders,they're used to having a chain
of command there's there'sstructure and order in
everything that they do.
Yeah.
They're very they're veryexceptional.
They're, I mean, they're highperformers at what they do.
(21:15):
Right.
And, but there's this as theytransitioning, I think it's the
fear of man.
I look at civilian life and itlooks chaotic compared to what I
have.
Van Demone (21:24):
I would have to say that individually I've, I've
talked to some of these men andwomen who, who are, are craving
that, like they want more ofthat.
And then there's some that,that, that is the fear it's
like, I've been, you know Ilived a very tactical and
structured life and now what,what is going to look like, but
I think it's, it's there it'sthe same for all of us.
Right.
Any type of change is going tobring some sort of fear.
(21:47):
But the, but, but you're soembedded in a very various very
close culture like that and aclose tribe like that for so
long.
I think that even more makes itharder to walk out of that.
You know, so it was about why,but
Kyle Hamer (22:05):
You think it's more, you think it's more about the
community and the culture in thetribal effective of who's around
them and what they'recomfortable in versus structured
or unstressed.
Van Demone (22:16):
Yeah.
And just like the unknown ofwhat that might look like that
might look like.
So I think that's whyorganizations like the honor
foundation are such a great toolfor our transitioning military
because there's for the, thehonor foundation in particular,
they put them through athree-month program called the
Waypoint program and it's freeto the military, these military
service men and women.
(22:37):
And they start off with like,what's your why?
Like Simon Sinek, what's your,why what's your story?
Tell your story.
And, and then like at the end ofthe three months, they start
talking about like, okay, sohere's how you write a resume.
Here's how you interview, butreally is about discovering what
your purpose is.
First, before you get into this,these logical logistical and
(22:59):
tactile things.
And then what I do is I come inat the very end, right before
graduation, I do somethingcalled transition nights and as
an evening for us to gettogether and use my creative
tool.
And I can't give too much awaybecause, because I don't want it
to be, you know, we, we try tokeep it hush, hush up for the,
for the men and women that gothrough it.
But we use these creative toolsto talk about possibilities for
(23:21):
their future.
And it's incredible to see thepossibilities they can come up
with when, again, not thinkingso, so much in terms of, of
tactics, but in terms of justcreativity and possibility.
Kyle Hamer (23:37):
So when people, when people are put in this, in this
moment where they'retransitioning either they're in
the middle of their tribe,because it's part of their
company and they're, they'rehaving to this exercise, or
they're going through thehonors, the honor program, or
they're in their own life, whatare the things that they should
be looking for?
What are the things, what arethe rules, if you will, of
(23:57):
really, truly finding thathappiness or finding that aha
moment that creativity affordsthem that maybe they weren't
going to be able to see before.
Van Demone (24:08):
Okay.
So I'm going to say that it'sdifferent for everyone, but what
I have seen in my work is it'snot, it's not, it's not
necessarily in the result,right?
It's not in the product, butit's in the process.
So, so even you're putting in acreative tool for someone so
that they can think in adifferent way.
(24:29):
Like there's one thing I usecalled force connections or
visual visual clues.
And this is a, this is somethingthat I do with the honor
foundation, with some of theother organizations I work with.
I was put a picture in front ofthem, a tree with roots or a
boot, and ask them, think aboutwhat you're thinking about, what
possibilities for yourself, orthink about the problem you're
trying to solve and look at the,look at the picture and what
(24:51):
characteristics of this imagerepresent the possibilities for
you.
And it's, it's honestlyincredible to see what people
pull out of these images.
Right.
And in that, that one exercisealone is allowing them to use
the right side of their brain,which is also going to draw out
(25:12):
ideas from them that left brainthinking alone cannot do.
So even that like that, right.
There are people are wowed bylike, Oh my gosh, like, it's
almost like even having that,that new thought is is enough of
a a payoff, right?
It doesn't have to be like, Ohyes.
I discovered like, this is whatI want to do in my life.
(25:34):
Or I, or I, I came to thisconclusion is just like, wow,
like I can use that now in somany different areas of my life.
Like, I'm, I have the ability tocome up with these ideas
Kyle Hamer (25:48):
Are some of the limiting factors sometimes for
people embracing creativity or,or being able to, you know,
emphasize right.
Brain versus left brain.
Cause I think there's enough outthere where folks are like,
yeah, I understand that if, if Icould get creative that it might
be interesting, but the fear isthat when you get creative, it
has to be something that's goingto go in the Guggenheim or that
(26:09):
it's going to be seen at, at atthe mat, you know, as a, as a,
as a grand opera or this, thisincredible production is there,
is there a place where peoplecan start to get safe that it's,
you know, in these small stepswhere it's like, you don't
really, it doesn't have to be agrand production.
Like what, what is it that helpspeople get over that hump where
I'm an accountant?
(26:29):
And I just deal with numbersthat I can embrace the, well,
you know, if it's colored in,it's outside of the lines, then,
then maybe I'm seeing somethingthat's different.
How do you help folks getthrough that or, or embrace that
other side of the brain?
So the
Van Demone (26:44):
First thing really is like the like kind of like
trying to get people tounderstand what creativity is
like, number one, understandwhat their definition of
creativity is and then helpingthem redefine that.
So a lot of people thinkcreativity is being able to
think opera or paint.
And I talk about creativity anda lot of my work is educating
(27:04):
rather than it is starting thework.
So I talk about creativity as acapacity and not a skill, right?
So like, yes, opera singing is askill oil painting is a skill,
but the capacity behind thatskill, the creative creativity
behind that skill is thecapacity.
And we all have a capacity forcreativity.
It looks different on all of us.
(27:26):
So, you know, the creativitylooks different, all of us.
And for some people it does looklike being an amazing artists of
visual artists.
For some people like anaccountant, it looks like, you
know, accounting is hard tounderstand, but I can creatively
come up with language to talk tomy clients.
So it's understandable.
(27:46):
So th and the idea of putting,putting the two things that are,
that have no that have nothingin common and being able to
combine, combine two ideas,right?
So like if the accountant whocan take an Excel spreadsheet,
which I can't read it all anduse words and imagery and, and
(28:06):
metaphors to help me understandit, that's creative.
Right?
So again, there's like Gabrielcreated, it looks different and
yes, although oftentimes I willbring in an art project.
I don't, I, I always make surepeople like the art project
isn't about, I like testing yourability to do art.
We use art projects at the endof a lot of our our sessions as
(28:29):
artifacts, because I know frommy experience, I go to meetings
trainings, and I'll write downcopious amounts of notes and
then never open that notebookagain.
But I have, I have a little, alittle artifact with me that had
the, I've created with some ofthe thoughts or ideas from that,
for that program, for thatworkshop.
That's something I'll come, I'llalways remember.
(28:49):
I can always come back to itcause sitting right there in my
face, remind me,
Kyle Hamer (28:53):
So there there's, there's a couple of things there
.
I think that are reallypowerful.
I love the, I love thedistinction between capacity and
skill, because I think we, as a,as a society or as a human
being, we want to be successful.
And we project on the skill,right?
We know that with practice, youcan develop a skill.
I mean, there's a, it was a10,000 hours.
There's a book that talks about,you know, the amount of time it
(29:15):
takes to become a master eliteat something that is different
than the capacity, which, youknow, fuels whatever that skill
is as it's manifested.
So that's, I think that's areally, really powerful
distinction that, that can helppeople navigate that safe space
where it's like, I maybe I'venever done a jumping Jack, or
I've never climbed a rope, orI've never done a pushup.
(29:35):
Well, the first time you do anyof those things, it's not going
to be very pretty, right.
Like, it's just, it's just not,but it's, you're learning
something new, you're expandingthings.
So that's, I think that's reallycool.
The the last thing that youtouched on there in that Oh man,
I just lost it.
(29:56):
Cause I thought it was I thoughtit was really, really important.
So I, I apologize.
It just slipped my mind.
Van Demone (30:08):
Now I can't remember.
Kyle Hamer (30:10):
It's gone, like I'm having old timers over here.
What I was w what I want to askis when you, when you think
about, so we'll cut here.
But when you think about the,the happiness and understanding
the difference between capacityand skill, if I'm a, if I'm a
(30:33):
manager or I'm a participant ona team where I have some, I have
some influence, maybe I'm notthe titled leader, but I have
some influence and I have somechallenges.
Are there practical things thatI can take without having to go
through?
One of your courses, are therethey're little tips that you
could say, Hey, here's someanecdotal ways to maybe just do
a couple of these things, goingback to your curiosity, small
(30:55):
steps.
What if, but embracing that tobegin creating that culture,
creating that safety, thatspace, where it's acceptable to
be seen as where maybe it's,you're more successful as being
seen as somebody who is tryingnew things.
And, you know, the, you know,the outcome that, that somebody
(31:15):
should have, or the ways thatpeople should be behaving to, to
really embrace happiness throughcreativity.
If I'm inside corporate Americatoday, and I can't take your
course because you're inCalifornia, what are the things
I can do with my team or thingsI can encourage my, my leaders
to, to embrace.
Van Demone (31:32):
So I think, I think the it's all it does.
It, this is something that'sthat has to be top down, right?
I teach this idea of bottom uplike that, as much as we can, we
want it.
We want it to grow things fromthe bottom up.
But because this idea of beingcreated in the workplace, it's
not going to work unless it'sfrom the top down, like people
(31:52):
from the top have to embrace itfirst so that they can spread
it.
So, so I think a lot of it,first of all, is, is, is your
mindset.
So if you believe that everyonein your organization on your
team has that creative capacityand believe in that philosophy
that you talked about in thevery beginning, one of our
foundational principles is thatgood ideas can come from anyone
in your organization.
(32:13):
And you can really embrace thosetwo things.
You will act differently anyway,right?
You'll ask people questions.
As you walk by their desk,you'll ask people, other people
for ideas.
So those types of things tobegin with.
So changing your minds around,like, where do I use come from
in my organization?
And the creative department, themarketing department are not the
only creative peoples here.
Like we're all creative.
So even having that mindset willchange the way you act.
(32:36):
And then when people are beingcreative, not to you know, let
them fail and let, I let evenbad crazy ideas come to the
table and come up fordiscussion.
Because what that does is itallows someone's idea.
Even as all comes with the ideain your head, you think, Oh,
(32:57):
that's never gonna work.
You know what, if you ha, if youget three people together into
discussion about that wild andcrazy idea, that can be honed
down and chiseled into somethingthat might work, but you've
knocked that down right away andsay, that's never going to work
well, you're right.
It's never gonna work.
A great tool that people canbring into the workplace for
that is from improv called.
Yes.
And have you heard of that tool?
(33:18):
No.
Have not that tell me more soyes.
Yes.
And it comes from improv.
So when you're, when you're inimprov, if you're an improv
artist, you don't have theopportunity to get on stage.
And if someone says something,you can't say like, Oh, I don't
want to do that.
Let's do another one.
Right.
You just have to roll as a yes.
And, and then make something up.
So the same thing.
(33:38):
So this is something that you,this is often used a
brainstorming in companieswhere, you know, you ask the
question, someone comes with anidea, the next person has to say
yes and, and build on that idea.
So you do this in a group forawhile.
I always do it two ways.
I, I first say, we're good.
We're going to do it.
But we say, but you know, likeyou had a couple of idea.
I'm gonna say yes, but whywouldn't work?
(34:02):
And you can see, you can justfeel the energy of the room,
like lowering.
And then we switched it up.
It was like, okay, now you'regonna come with idea.
And the next person, the nextwhat's, the next one is going to
build up, I think.
Yes.
And, and all of a sudden, likeyou, and like, even when I say
like, you can see me, no oneelse on the podcast, but I'm
like slumping down when I sayyes, but the second I said, yes,
and I'm sitting up.
(34:23):
So it's, it's a way to haveeveryone's ideas matter, be
supported and in anon-judgemental environment.
So after your yes, and exercise,all the ideas, get on the board
and now you can set criteria.
Right.
We also call it, we also calledthis protocol divers and
(34:44):
conference and thinking.
So, so I'm just giving you, I'mgoing all over the place, but
the yes, and this is great.
The other thing and the otherprinciple that can be used
immediately by anyone is thisconcept of divergent and
convergent thinking.
So again, you have a problemyou're trying to solve a
challenge is trying to overcome.
The first thing you want to dois divergent thinking.
You're going to get a real withyour team.
And you're going to tell herwe're going to do divergent
(35:06):
thinking, which basically meanshere's the question.
Here's the challenge.
Let's get every single idea onthe table.
And you're going to keep doingthat until every ideas on the
table, even the wild and crazyones.
And, and no one can say, Oh,that's not gonna work.
No one says aiding you, everyoneeverybody's idea gets on the
table.
And then you can move toconvergent thinking.
And then converse is thinkingnow, as a leader, I might say,
(35:28):
great, all these ideas areamazing.
Great, invalid, thank you forthose ideas.
But we, but let me give you theparameters.
This has to be in four weeks,this is our budget.
These are the people that needto be involved, and now you have
parameters.
So now you can go back to yourdivers and thinking ideas and be
like, okay, well, these are theones that will work in the
(35:48):
parameter.
And then you can work ondeveloping those.
But the I, but the concept likethe everyone's I did on that
table is going to make it morelikely that by the time you get
to whatever the end result isthat you have more people on
board,
Kyle Hamer (36:03):
It makes it makes sense to me.
I mean, it, yeah, it does.
Just, just given the fact thatyou've been part of plenty of
brainstorming and discussionswhere the first thing the person
facilitating wants to do isthey're their words.
No, we can't do that.
No, no, no, no.
Yeah.
(36:23):
And the thing that I think isreally amazing that I think you,
you very pointedly pulled outis, is how powerful language
really is.
You only changed one word, butthe one word that you changed
you and versus, but sameresponse and versus, but has a
dramatic impact on the emotion,the response, the creativity,
(36:47):
the empowerment of that room andthe person facilitating is the
person who has the privilege ofgiving or taking away those
feelings with just a simple wordchoice.
Van Demone (36:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it goes, and that's what wetalk about that yes, an
exercise, as it's funny, can, itcan get funny and again, you
know, it's a way to involveeveryone, but really ultimately
what you're, what you're doingis building trust.
Kyle Hamer (37:16):
Absolutely.
100% about, Oh, is this is 2020.
So what have been for 1350 11,11 to 13 years ago, Melissa
Mayer Meyer was the, I want tosay COO or director of, of
design.
She was, she was a head up inGoogle.
(37:39):
She was, she was high up inGoogle.
And I saw a segment wheresomebody had done kind of like a
day in the life of one of theirdesign sessions or day in the
life of an engineer of a productengineer at Google.
And the, in the segment.
One of the things that I thoughtwas was brilliant about what
(37:59):
Melissa had done is she wouldsay, I, I understand what you're
saying.
And I agree with the, thesolution that you've provided,
but I disagree with your problemstatement.
So she, she kept coming back to,I agree with what you're saying,
but we haven't defined theproblem appropriately yet.
(38:19):
Let's go back to what the actualproblem is, which I thought was
just, was a fascinating way tothink.
It was like everything everybodywas saying, everyone was looking
at the solution.
And she was saying, I don't, Idon't disagree with your
solution.
I, as a matter of fact, if youguys started with that problem
statement, I would come to thesame conclusion as you, we need
to readdress the problemstatement.
(38:40):
How often do you find whenyou're working with, with groups
or companies or, or individualsas you're talking to them, that
the problem that they're reallystruggling with, the, the
limiter isn't the creativity, itisn't their ability to be
willing to fail, but it's theirinability to effectively define
the problem they're trying tosolve.
Van Demone (39:01):
Yeah.
So that, that does happen againbecause we are such as, you know
, we are so reactive and we wantto find a solution so quickly
that oftentimes the first stepis coming up with a problem and
whatever seems at hand seems tobe the problem.
So, but what we really want tolook at is like the root of that
(39:21):
problem.
I kind of like, I love that ideaof like, just kind of going back
and seeing like, if someoneStates that there's a problem
doing work around that, likeclarifying that like clarifying,
if that is really the problem.
And we do an exercise, I don't,I don't do a lot of strategy
work, but when we do, I also usethis, this process of of moving
(39:43):
backwards from like a tree.
Right.
So, so if you look at the, the,like the dead leaves, like
what's going on, like, what's,what's the problem.
Like they started the, theleaves like, well, so what's the
problem.
And people think like, that isthe problem, but then we'll go
deeper.
Okay.
What's in the, like, what aresome of the symptoms of that
problem?
And we'll go like, into thereason, like, okay, here's what
it was happening.
And they kind of dig into theroots and then you're like,
(40:03):
okay, so what you're seeing inthe roots, that's the actual
problem.
You were trying to treat asymptom
Kyle Hamer (40:10):
And in the, not maybe thinking of a different
Kaizen, but the Kaizen that youmentioned that you were mentor
mentor before, was he the personthat was part of the the Kaizen
events inside of the six, sixSigma ocean Conrad.
Okay.
Because the there's they, theyhave, what's called a Kaizen
event where you ask the fivewhys and the five whys are, you
(40:31):
know, w why do we have thisproblem to your, to your point
of the leaves are Brown.
Okay, well, why are the leavesBrown?
Will the leaves we should go getpaint and paint them, or we
should water the tree.
Well if, you know, if you gothrough the five fives and you
find out, well, the reason thatthe leaves are Brown is because
the tree has been drowned.
And the last thing that youshould have done was water the
tree.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's, it'sunderstanding what is the actual
(40:54):
root of the, of the problem toget, to solving it now in your,
in your time, working with folksacross being, you know, varied,
whether they're, you know, superstraight laced all the way to
maybe there are creative insideof a sales or a marketing
organization, they've found havebeen some fun stories.
Are there one or two aha momentswhere you're just like, you
(41:15):
know, this was, this was reallyspecial for that person and help
them have this breakthrough or,or find something that normal
people wouldn't have seen.
Van Demone (41:25):
Yeah.
I've, I've seen that at like agroup level and an individual
level.
So from what I, I love workingwith the honor foundation is one
of the highlights of my career.
And I love getting emails fromthese again, like Navy seals,
Marine ranges, like that classwas amazing.
I really had some, somebreakthroughs about what I want
(41:45):
to do in my life.
And one very specific one waswas in, in, in one of the, one
of the programs, the firstquestion is like, so what build
one possibility?
Like we work with Legos plate orwhatever it is, build one
possibility for your future.
And often, and this one, Jen waslike, well, I want to be the CEO
of a, you know, a governmentallike on like engineering farm or
(42:07):
something like that.
But his last, but his last buildwas like, you know what?
I've always wanted to be atravel writer, the mailbox for
that.
So I was like, this is like,this is what creativity does.
And this is what allowingyourself that time to be
creative allows you to reallyget to what you love rather than
what you left brain thinking,think you should be doing.
(42:28):
So that was one, one story on anindividual level.
And then there was anotherorganization I was working with
where they had multiplesatellite offices.
Everyone would do somethingdifferent.
There was no cohesion betweenany of the offices.
So we started building buildideas to solve the problem of
how can we be a more cohesiveworldwide company.
And so on had built this littlea little metaphor for beam me up
(42:52):
Scotty from star Trek, right?
And again, like, could youimagine you're in a corporate
office?
And you're like, Oh wow.
It was being people to anotherCaucasian that clearly wouldn't
go over well, but because we'rebuilding, they could build this
model as, and wild and crazyideas are welcome.
That idea made it to the table.
Of course, cause all I do ismake it a table.
And then within conversation,what that idea of beam me up,
(43:15):
Scotty ended up becoming andthey ended up using, it was this
concept of a work abroadprogram.
So they developed this workabroad program where someone
from the marketing team in LosAngeles, we'd go for a weekend
and shadow the marketing team inLondon and then come back with
those ideas.
They weren't exactly beamingthem to London, but that's where
(43:35):
that concept came from the ideaof a study abroad program or a
work abroad.
Kyle Hamer (43:39):
That's pretty, I mean, that's pretty fun given,
you know, a traveling, it soundslike it'd be a blast right now,
given the we're all a little bitlimited in where we can go, but
You might come out with aradioactive glow who knows what
it'll happen at this point?
Oh favorite book from the last24 months, the best book you've
(44:01):
written the last two years,
Van Demone (44:03):
I just finished reading.
I read so as you don't have aseven year old.
So I really haven't done thatmuch reading in seven years or
at least not a full book, but Iwould have to say my favorite
book that I've recently read iscalled Israel, Elizabeth
Gilbert, big magic.
It's an, a phenomenal book andspeak to a lot of the work that
I do around creativity.
(44:24):
And there's one idea from herbook that I'd love to share.
It's kind of end this as theidea that ideas are ideas, our
energy, right?
So ideas are floating around usall the time and they are
tapping on our shoulder askingus to bring them to life.
Cause I dig it only come to lifethrough a human being and they
can tap for a moment.
They might tap for years, but ifyou don't answer them, they'll
(44:46):
find someone else.
So I think ideas come to us asour curiosities.
So that's why I think it's soimportant to pay attention to
those curiosities because theidea tapping on the shoulder
saying like, listen to me, Iwant you to bring me to life.
Kyle Hamer (45:02):
I really don't think that there's any better way to
end this.
Then with that concept of a wayto bring your ideas to life and
finding happiness and thingsthat you know are creating
something new.
That's, that's just fantastic.
If somebody wants to get aholdof you, if they're there, you
need to reach out.
(45:22):
They're like, Hey, I th this hasbeen great.
Bernie.
Brown's like, Hey, I've got toget ahold of van.
What, what's the best way forthem?
Van Demone (45:28):
And you can find me on my
website@worksmartadvantage.com.
And I basically live onLinkedIn.
So you can also find me thereunder my name.
Kyle Hamer (45:38):
That's fantastic.
Well, thank you so much for, foryour insights and sharing.
It's been a delight to have youon the show today, van.
Van Demone (45:45):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Kyle.
I really enjoyed it.
I thank you for your time aswell.
And for having me on,
Kyle Hamer (45:50):
Oh, it's been fantastic.
I'm your host, Kyle Haimer.
You've been listening to TheSummit Podcast until next week.
Make sure you like follow orsubscribe and check out the
comments and description forlinks to Van's information.
So you can get in contact withher again.
Thanks for listening.
And until next week, keepgrowing, keep grinding and keep
finding your greatness.
Welcome to the summit.
A podcast focused on bringingyou the knowledge and insights
for industry leaders.
I'm your host Kyle Hamer, andI'm on a mission to help you
exceed your potential.
As a sales guy, turned marketer,I am passionate about building
sustainable businesses.
And if there's one thing I'velearned in my 20 year career is
that you won't find an overnightgrowth scheme, a shortcut to
(00:20):
success or way to hack yourselfto the top.
Nope.
Success is the by-product ofhard work, great relationships
and deep understanding done overand over.
We're here to help you unlockthat success with some secrets
from other people, oneconversation at a time.
Kyle Hamer (00:34):
Welcome back to another episode of The Summit
Podcast.
I'm your host, Kyle Hamer today.
Our show's guest is Van Demone.
And I'm assuming it's France.
Is that right, Van?
There i s a whole story behindthat is not French.
Oh no, I should probably tellthat accent then.
Yeah.
Van Demone (00:53):
What it is a French last name.
My husband is from Greece and ishis con artists.
Father was trying to open aFrench restaurant.
So changed the name to Domo fromSpilly topless.
Kyle Hamer (01:06):
Oh, you're well, look, the moon's a whole lot
easier to say than
Van Demone (01:10):
That's true.
Yes.
A lot easier to write down toomany.
I don't know how many lettersisn't[inaudible]
Kyle Hamer (01:17):
Well, you know, when you say con artists, father,
like that just has to make forsome fantastic holiday.
Van Demone (01:23):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Maybe we just change the wholetheme of this podcast.
Kyle Hamer (01:29):
No, let's not.
Let's not.
Let's focus on the positive.
For those of you who don't know,van van is the founder of
WorkSmart she's a progressiveteam development and leadership
training consultancy.
She utilizes creativity, playexperimental learning to help
involve things like mindset andskillsets and behaviors inside
your workplace.
(01:50):
Her work is built on thefoundation that we're all
creative.
Good ideas can really come fromanywhere.
And everyone inside of anorganization have a chance for
their voice to be heard.
Van has, what is the, what doyou call it is an author, no
speaker and Ted talks Ted talks,ex ex her episode, or her Ted
(02:11):
talk is called.
What if the life changing powerof curiosity?
I had a chance to watch that Iwould highly recommend you go
out and watch it.
Outside of that, she's highlydecorated academic, incredibly
involved with localorganizations like the honors
foundation.
And when she's not doing thatand working with companies like
LinkedIn and Pandora, Google,you'll find her hanging out with
(02:34):
guys like me on podcasts ortaking care of her family.
Does that sound about right?
Van Demone (02:39):
Well, I don't know who you're talking about it.
She sounds amazing.
Kyle Hamer (02:43):
Sounds like the person I'm talking to.
Van Demone (02:45):
That was great.
Thank you.
Yeah, that sounds just aboutright.
And I'm tired.
I know what I'm so tired.
There's a lot of things I'mdoing.
Kyle Hamer (02:52):
No kidding.
Like you might, you might needto, you know, sit down for a
minute just yeah.
Right.
Five minutes,
Van Demone (02:57):
Sit down for a minute.
That's awesome.
Kyle Hamer (03:00):
No, and today's today's topic thing we were
going to talk about on today'sshow is happiness, finding
happiness in your work, in howyou can be fulfilled through
creativity, exploration, andjust being curious.
But before we get too far intothat topic, what I'd really like
to start with is if you wouldshare with us just a little bit
(03:22):
about your backstory and if Iremember correct, your backstory
really starts was it two weeksor two days before you turned to
,
Van Demone (03:30):
It was about, about the two or three weeks before I
turned two.
Kyle Hamer (03:34):
Well, why don't you, why don't you for our listeners
share love just a little bit ofthat story.
You don't have to get all theway into it, but just kind of
the, how did you get put onthis, this a path of creativity
and exploration and curiosity?
Van Demone (03:45):
Sure.
So it was definitely not astraight and narrow path.
So when I was two years old, wewere, I was born in Vietnam and
I was born right at the end ofthe Vietnam war almost two years
old to end the Vietnam war in1975.
And my dad was a Colonel in theSouth Vietnamese air force.
So we had to get out of there.
And on the day, Saigon fell tothe communist party.
(04:09):
He was told to get his familyout of the country any way he
could.
So we found a way out.
And our first home here was inCalifornia, was camp penicillin,
Marine base in San Diego.
And then from there, we weresent to an integration center up
in Sacramento called hopevillage.
And it was there that my mom metTippi Hedren, a Hollywood movie
star, who was a volunteer there,who is her, her position.
(04:32):
There was to help these womenfind a career to start their new
lives.
So be abroad in like aseamstress and a typist because
those were careers are fairlyeasy to learn and easy to get
into.
But my mom had a group of otherVietnamese we had about 90 other
women were just curious aboutTimmy's long red manicure nails.
So that led them down this pathof saying what EFT curiosity,
(04:53):
right?
Curiosity led, led them to saywhat F so with that, what if
tippy brought in her personalmanicures to teach him how to do
nails?
And then from there they lovedit.
So Tiffany said, well, what ifwe actually get these women
licensed as heroes?
So she went to the local beautyschool and asked them if they
would take on these 20 women whodid speak English, who who
couldn't afford tuition, theywould take them on as students.
(05:14):
And that school said, yes.
So 10 weeks later, these 20women all got tested, did their
practicum and were licensedmanicures.
And they went off into the, inthe world and each of them
started doing nails and it wasthe refugees and immigrants who
came after us, who learned aboutthe profession from their
friends and their friends fromthem.
(05:34):
And now 40 something.
Plus years later, it's an$8.3billion industry.
And whenever I do this talk, Ialways start with the question,
like, how many of you had yournails done by Vietnamese
manicures?
And I would say 99% of the roomalways raises their hands
because that's just the industrythat we, that we've kind of
taken over because of thekindness of Tippi Hedren and the
(05:57):
curiosity of these 20 women.
So it's quite the history.
Kyle Hamer (06:02):
Well, and it's, it's, it's quite a, as you said,
it's not a straight and narrowpath, so it's quite an
adventurous route to get you towhere you are today.
Additionally, it's really,really interesting to me that
the similarities between one,the butterfly effect and just a
simple gesture of kindness, whatthat meant for the revolution
(06:23):
or, or disruption of an entireindustry, as well as you look
at, you know, 40 years ago.
No, but you know, you ask, hasanybody had their nails done by
a Vietnamese manicurist?
And they'd be like, you know,maybe, maybe one in a thousand
or one in 10,000 and now like,it's the opposite.
If it's not somebody who'sVietnamese doing that, you know,
(06:46):
they're like, well, where areyou getting your nails done?
Like what's what's happening.
So there was a, there's a marketdisruption.
And in that journey, now youtake that and you've turned that
into your Ted talk.
We really have these kind ofthree core defining principles.
And I'd like to start there in,in kind of as our backstop for
talking about happiness, becausethose three, those three
(07:09):
elements are really, reallyimportant.
What are they?
Van Demone (07:12):
So I talk about this within this or my Frameline for
the story, with this idea offollowing curiosity.
Right.
And I, and I love this conceptbecause I feel like we're all as
human beings, very curious, butwe're often too busy to even
acknowledge our curiosities.
So really to recognize whenyou're curious about something
(07:34):
and then taking that minute tosay like, what, and then the
next one is like, what F right.
So taking that curiosity like,well, what if, what if I
followed down this path of, ofthis curiosity, what could that
look like?
And then taking small steps toget there?
Cause I think often, like if,even if you can get past the
idea that I'm too busy, I can'teven think about it.
Curiosity, even if you can getto the point where like, Oh
yeah, I recognize that.
I noticed I had that curiosity.
(07:56):
And then we start think aboutpossibilities sometimes that's
where we end because like, Oh,well that's never going to have
a great, I'm curious about that,but that possibility because of
whatever it might be because ofthe limitations on the, I put it
on my own life.
That's not that possibly isactually a reality for me.
So I'm going to move on.
But when we add on that laststep of taking a small step, you
(08:16):
take away the overwhelm of thisbeing an impossibility, and you
change it to just one smallaction that you can do to get
you closer to whatever thatpossibility might be.
Kyle Hamer (08:30):
Now you use that as kind of the three back backbones
and, and frameworks for what youknow, what you talk about in
your Ted talk, how things areyou know, we talked about in
your Ted talk and then how yourun your, your organization work
smart, right?
Like you you've had a careerthat's been built on kind of
(08:52):
this be curious explore it abit.
And, and then, you know, withthe, the, what if, and then
taking these small steps, why isthat so powerful for people?
Is it, is it because that we arescared by the big unknown in
the, the big risk or when, whyis that such an empowering thing
(09:12):
for helping people find their,their way and their happiness?
Van Demone (09:15):
Well, I think that's exactly right as humans, we are,
we're built to be fearful ofchange.
And I read a book and by Dr.
Robert Mauer called one smallstep can change your life the
Kaizen way.
And he's since become a mentorof mine.
And what I love about that bookis it gave neurological and
(09:36):
neurological reasoning for whywe act like this, right?
So the part of our brain there'sthe amygdala and way back when
that Amelia was, was a sense offear.
Like if we were, you know, ifAline was about to attack, you
know, founding lives like fightor flight, it triggers fight or
flight, but now we're, we livein this environment is there's
so many stressors.
There's so much going on that,that, that thing's kind of going
(09:57):
off all the time.
So when we come up with like abig grant idea, that's going to
shift our lives.
Like I want to start a newcareer, I'm going to move to
another country, whatever itmight be.
If you come up with these grandideas, the first thing that's
gonna happen in your brain isthat Megan is going to wake up
like what, like, that soundsdangerous.
That doesn't sound like what weknow.
So we're gonna, I'm gonna, I'mgonna put out these newer
(10:20):
receptors that say stop, right.
And, and that stops you frommaking any moves at all.
But the way I put it in my TEDxtalk is that when we take small
steps towards our big audaciousgoal, you're typic tiptoeing
around that amygdala.
So it stays asleep so that youcan actually reach your goal by
taking one small step at a time,rather than getting into that
stage of that state of fight orflight.
Kyle Hamer (10:46):
And so when, I mean, when you're, when you're
navigating through this andyou're, you're moving through
this this, this phase of fightor flight, you know, I think
it's pretty simple to go, Ohyeah, that's a lion.
I don't want to get eaten, stayaway.
It might be a little bit lessobvious what's happening to your
body as to why we would shutthings down.
Talk a little bit about how you,you teach people to break
(11:08):
through that or to tiptoe aroundthat, to, to still maintain
their level of curiosity andasking what if, but doing so in
a safe way so that they can,they can find that unexpected,
happiness, or find thatunexpected satisfaction in, in
something that they never knewthat maybe they would enjoy or
even was on their, on theirpath.
Van Demone (11:29):
Sure.
So my, so my work is in bringingthis whole concept of creativity
into the workplace, and I'll let, let me start back there
because what I, I grew up verycreative.
I was always very creative,human being, but I also grew up
in a refugee Asian family where,where you're going to be a
doctor.
So why do you need creativity?
(11:49):
You can be an engineer.
So you, why do you needcreativity?
Right.
So, so it nurtured in myhousehold.
And this, as I got older, Ireally just followed that path
of, of getting a degree, gettinga graduate degree, getting a job
in the corporate environment.
And I found myself very unhappythere.
So what I did was I had theprivilege of leaving that
(12:09):
environment because my husbanddoes have a stable job in
career.
So I had the privilege ofleaving my job and going down
this path of following mycuriosity, asking what had been
taking small steps to growingthe business I have now.
But what I realized is that noteveryone has that privilege.
I often talk about you hearpeople say, just do what you
love, do what you love.
(12:30):
Not everyone has that privilegeor that opportunity.
So what I teach is takesomething you love into what you
do.
So, so that is often how I talkabout, about this idea of, if
you're curious about something,you don't have to blow up your
life to pursue it, right.
You can think of all thepossibilities and some of
(12:50):
possibilities may be soaudacious.
It scares you.
Some possible possibilities maybe smaller, more attainable, but
pick one pick.
And just because you pick onedoesn't mean the breasts are
unattainable or that therestaurant invalid, it's just,
let's start with one, start withone possibility.
And then what you can do is takeone small step.
Let's say you want to start anew career, right?
(13:11):
You're not like, so do you knowsomeone who works at a career
have a conversation with them,read a book about it.
So just one small step, and thenwhat will come after that small
step is either another smallstep or nothing at all.
Right?
And then you can move on to,okay, well, what other
curiosities I have?
I think what, what happens is ashuman beings, we think way far
(13:32):
into the distant future and belike, okay, well, here's what
I'm curious about.
Here are the possibilities andhow do I get from a to Z?
But what we realize is that the,if you actually take those small
steps, it's not going to looklike what you think it looks
like, right?
You have zero idea what that'sactually going to look like.
If you really do take the timeto take small steps and let, let
(13:52):
the next small step emerge fromthat.
Kyle Hamer (13:56):
Now you, I mean, you've, we talked about in your,
you know, kind of your introthat you've worked with
companies like Google andLinkedIn Pandora.
I mean, you've, you've reallyworked with companies are, are
really progressive.
And so people might be, well,you know the word you chose was
privileged.
Those companies are privilegedenough to, to embrace that
(14:17):
creativity, to allow for thatexploration and in the what ifs,
why is it important thatcompanies say, no, no, no, this
isn't a privilege that this issomething that we should really
have afford or make part of ourculture.
Why, why is that so importantin, in, you know, in the
workspace, in places thatyou're, you know, you're, you're
(14:39):
serving.
Van Demone (14:40):
So I, I think there's, there's several
reasons.
Number one, creativity, becausecreativity is innate in all of
us.
If you give people theopportunity to, to their
creativity, then you're, you'retapping into something that we
all want to be able to do.
And I say this because fromexperience, like, even as
someone, if we have to go intoan office and like, Oh, like
(15:01):
creative stuff, like I'm, I'mnot creative.
I don't even want to becreative, but once you give them
the opportunity to tap into thatcreativity, they're the ones
that like, I have to say, like,you got to put down the paint
brushes now.
Right.
You have to put down the Legos,like it's time to move on.
So again, like one of thosethings where we're all creative.
So if a company allows people,the opportunity to tap into
(15:23):
whether it's like, like what Ido, like visual creative tools,
or even creative thinking you'reempowering those people, you
empower your people tounderstand, like, my voice has
my voice matters, my ideasmatter.
And so again, so on a, on a,like a sort of like a people
first type of level, you areengaging your employees to
(15:43):
realize like they matter to you,they matter to what happens is
organization.
And as far as for theorganization, by bringing in
these creative tools, you aretapping into everyone's
creativity.
And if you look at the companieswho are successful, small,
large, whatever, you have peoplethink creatively, you have
people innovating all the time,you can't stay stagnant and
(16:04):
grow.
You can't stay stagnant andsurvive.
So, so yeah.
So if you think in terms of justsurvival, that's why he's
important.
Kyle Hamer (16:15):
But again, that goes back to the fight or flight,
right?
It may be your organization'sway of saying, Hey, this is what
we need to do to survive.
You, you picked a couple ofwords that I think are they're
really relevant in the in theera, the, the social climate
that we're in the, the world, asit is means we're, we're
navigating this this pandemic,the words, empowerment
(16:38):
privilege.
And there was one more just Oh,it's gone.
Why do you, why do you thinkthose words are so important to
people who participate in your,in your classes or your
workshops in, in finding theirown, their own way towards
(16:59):
towards happiness?
Well, why is it that there, thewords empowerment or privileged
don't necessarily have to bederogatory or taking away from
their, their emboldening in, inhelping?
What, what is it about thosetopics that are so enriching to
the people who who get toparticipate in activities that
are supported by those, thosethemes?
Van Demone (17:20):
So I think for me, it comes down to the fact that,
you know, companies in the Fwhere we're at a different place
in, in the corporateenvironment, right?
So when I graduated fromundergrad, the grad school, when
I went in for an interview, itwas very clear to me.
Like this company isinterviewing me.
So I had to be at my best.
(17:40):
And if they at best, and if theywant me, I hope they want me
they'll hire me.
But I feel like there's a wholedifferent generation now where
it's not about that.
Companies know it, right.
When someone comes in for aninterview is a two-way street.
Like, is this the right culturefor me?
Is this a, is this the right fitfor me?
And, and there's, you know, likewe can make fun of like, Oh,
millennials, they'd rather belike, they're not going to get,
(18:02):
they're not going to take a job.
And this was the right fit forthem.
But I always think like theyhave, they've empowered all of
us to see work differently.
And, and it is like, and it's abeautiful thing.
Cause you think about how muchtime we spend at work.
We should feel empowered there.
We should feel that our voicematters.
And then on the opposite, notthe opposite, but I think with
(18:23):
corporations did a lot ofcompanies did, was like, okay,
well, great.
We do want to make these people.
I won't feel comfortable here.
So let's get a ping pong tableor let's supply snacks, or let's
go bowling together, which isall amazing and great.
I think there are good changes,but empowered and privileged.
I think those are words thatspeak more to the fact that
(18:45):
you're empowering andprivileging people.
And I wasn't used to being in aprivileged to be a right, to
have your voice heard in the, inthe workplace.
I think that's what my work doesis it's through these creative
tools, you're giving people whonormally don't have a voice, a
chance to have their voice heardand ultimately and you know,
studies have shown us surveyshave showed it.
Those ping pong tables aregreat.
(19:06):
The bully eyes are amazing, butpeople will stay if they feel
like their voice is heard andthey, and they are they're
respected in the workplace.
Kyle Hamer (19:17):
Well, I think that's, you know, I think those
are, those are great insights.
And I think it's, it speaks toyour true understanding of
what's happening kineticallyinside of, of corporates, as
well as, you know, the dynamicsof balancing between hiring and
getting the most out of aworkforce.
But it doesn't just happen incorporate America like this,
this place of finding surprisesand gotchas following your three
(19:37):
steps of, you know, curiosityand what F and then small steps,
this actually plays well in alot of places.
And you do some work with thehonor foundation.
Tell us a little bit about thatfoundation.
What, what, what the, what it'sabout, and then let's talk about
you know, the BS things inpractice.
Van Demone (19:58):
Sure.
Okay.
So the honor foundation is anorganization, a nonprofit
organization that works asmilitary special force
operators, Navy seals, MarineRangers, as they transition from
military to civilian careers.
And you could ask some of thesemen and women, what their
biggest fear is, and it's notthe battlefield is not what they
(20:20):
face in the military is thattransition time.
Right.
Kyle Hamer (20:24):
But why is that such a big fear for them?
Van Demone (20:27):
Think that, I mean, if you think about having been
in the military for many, manyof them for their whole career,
there's a certain culture there,right?
There's a, there's a specificculture of the military.
It's a tribe.
It's a, it's not just a job,it's their, it's their whole
life.
And to leave that to go into thecorporate world, is it civilian
(20:48):
civilian career?
There's so much unknown is allthat unknown.
So, so,
Kyle Hamer (20:55):
Okay.
Is it the, it was just say, isit, is you think it's the fear
of the lack of structure link oryou think that they're afraid
of?
Cause I mean, you guys that arespecial forces, right.
They're used to taking orders,they're used to having a chain
of command there's there'sstructure and order in
everything that they do.
Yeah.
They're very they're veryexceptional.
They're, I mean, they're highperformers at what they do.
(21:15):
Right.
And, but there's this as theytransitioning, I think it's the
fear of man.
I look at civilian life and itlooks chaotic compared to what I
have.
Van Demone (21:24):
I would have to say that individually I've, I've
talked to some of these men andwomen who, who are, are craving
that, like they want more ofthat.
And then there's some that,that, that is the fear it's
like, I've been, you know Ilived a very tactical and
structured life and now what,what is going to look like, but
I think it's, it's there it'sthe same for all of us.
Right.
Any type of change is going tobring some sort of fear.
(21:47):
But the, but, but you're soembedded in a very various very
close culture like that and aclose tribe like that for so
long.
I think that even more makes itharder to walk out of that.
You know, so it was about why,but
Kyle Hamer (22:05):
You think it's more, you think it's more about the
community and the culture in thetribal effective of who's around
them and what they'recomfortable in versus structured
or unstressed.
Van Demone (22:16):
Yeah.
And just like the unknown ofwhat that might look like that
might look like.
So I think that's whyorganizations like the honor
foundation are such a great toolfor our transitioning military
because there's for the, thehonor foundation in particular,
they put them through athree-month program called the
Waypoint program and it's freeto the military, these military
service men and women.
(22:37):
And they start off with like,what's your why?
Like Simon Sinek, what's your,why what's your story?
Tell your story.
And, and then like at the end ofthe three months, they start
talking about like, okay, sohere's how you write a resume.
Here's how you interview, butreally is about discovering what
your purpose is.
First, before you get into this,these logical logistical and
(22:59):
tactile things.
And then what I do is I come inat the very end, right before
graduation, I do somethingcalled transition nights and as
an evening for us to gettogether and use my creative
tool.
And I can't give too much awaybecause, because I don't want it
to be, you know, we, we try tokeep it hush, hush up for the,
for the men and women that gothrough it.
But we use these creative toolsto talk about possibilities for
(23:21):
their future.
And it's incredible to see thepossibilities they can come up
with when, again, not thinkingso, so much in terms of, of
tactics, but in terms of justcreativity and possibility.
Kyle Hamer (23:37):
So when people, when people are put in this, in this
moment where they'retransitioning either they're in
the middle of their tribe,because it's part of their
company and they're, they'rehaving to this exercise, or
they're going through thehonors, the honor program, or
they're in their own life, whatare the things that they should
be looking for?
What are the things, what arethe rules, if you will, of
(23:57):
really, truly finding thathappiness or finding that aha
moment that creativity affordsthem that maybe they weren't
going to be able to see before.
Van Demone (24:08):
Okay.
So I'm going to say that it'sdifferent for everyone, but what
I have seen in my work is it'snot, it's not, it's not
necessarily in the result,right?
It's not in the product, butit's in the process.
So, so even you're putting in acreative tool for someone so
that they can think in adifferent way.
(24:29):
Like there's one thing I usecalled force connections or
visual visual clues.
And this is a, this is somethingthat I do with the honor
foundation, with some of theother organizations I work with.
I was put a picture in front ofthem, a tree with roots or a
boot, and ask them, think aboutwhat you're thinking about, what
possibilities for yourself, orthink about the problem you're
trying to solve and look at the,look at the picture and what
(24:51):
characteristics of this imagerepresent the possibilities for
you.
And it's, it's honestlyincredible to see what people
pull out of these images.
Right.
And in that, that one exercisealone is allowing them to use
the right side of their brain,which is also going to draw out
(25:12):
ideas from them that left brainthinking alone cannot do.
So even that like that, right.
There are people are wowed bylike, Oh my gosh, like, it's
almost like even having that,that new thought is is enough of
a a payoff, right?
It doesn't have to be like, Ohyes.
I discovered like, this is whatI want to do in my life.
(25:34):
Or I, or I, I came to thisconclusion is just like, wow,
like I can use that now in somany different areas of my life.
Like, I'm, I have the ability tocome up with these ideas
Kyle Hamer (25:48):
Are some of the limiting factors sometimes for
people embracing creativity or,or being able to, you know,
emphasize right.
Brain versus left brain.
Cause I think there's enough outthere where folks are like,
yeah, I understand that if, if Icould get creative that it might
be interesting, but the fear isthat when you get creative, it
has to be something that's goingto go in the Guggenheim or that
(26:09):
it's going to be seen at, at atthe mat, you know, as a, as a,
as a grand opera or this, thisincredible production is there,
is there a place where peoplecan start to get safe that it's,
you know, in these small stepswhere it's like, you don't
really, it doesn't have to be agrand production.
Like what, what is it that helpspeople get over that hump where
I'm an accountant?
(26:29):
And I just deal with numbersthat I can embrace the, well,
you know, if it's colored in,it's outside of the lines, then,
then maybe I'm seeing somethingthat's different.
How do you help folks getthrough that or, or embrace that
other side of the brain?
So the
Van Demone (26:44):
First thing really is like the like kind of like
trying to get people tounderstand what creativity is
like, number one, understandwhat their definition of
creativity is and then helpingthem redefine that.
So a lot of people thinkcreativity is being able to
think opera or paint.
And I talk about creativity anda lot of my work is educating
(27:04):
rather than it is starting thework.
So I talk about creativity as acapacity and not a skill, right?
So like, yes, opera singing is askill oil painting is a skill,
but the capacity behind thatskill, the creative creativity
behind that skill is thecapacity.
And we all have a capacity forcreativity.
It looks different on all of us.
(27:26):
So, you know, the creativitylooks different, all of us.
And for some people it does looklike being an amazing artists of
visual artists.
For some people like anaccountant, it looks like, you
know, accounting is hard tounderstand, but I can creatively
come up with language to talk tomy clients.
So it's understandable.
(27:46):
So th and the idea of putting,putting the two things that are,
that have no that have nothingin common and being able to
combine, combine two ideas,right?
So like if the accountant whocan take an Excel spreadsheet,
which I can't read it all anduse words and imagery and, and
(28:06):
metaphors to help me understandit, that's creative.
Right?
So again, there's like Gabrielcreated, it looks different and
yes, although oftentimes I willbring in an art project.
I don't, I, I always make surepeople like the art project
isn't about, I like testing yourability to do art.
We use art projects at the endof a lot of our our sessions as
(28:29):
artifacts, because I know frommy experience, I go to meetings
trainings, and I'll write downcopious amounts of notes and
then never open that notebookagain.
But I have, I have a little, alittle artifact with me that had
the, I've created with some ofthe thoughts or ideas from that,
for that program, for thatworkshop.
That's something I'll come, I'llalways remember.
(28:49):
I can always come back to itcause sitting right there in my
face, remind me,
Kyle Hamer (28:53):
So there there's, there's a couple of things there
.
I think that are reallypowerful.
I love the, I love thedistinction between capacity and
skill, because I think we, as a,as a society or as a human
being, we want to be successful.
And we project on the skill,right?
We know that with practice, youcan develop a skill.
I mean, there's a, it was a10,000 hours.
There's a book that talks about,you know, the amount of time it
(29:15):
takes to become a master eliteat something that is different
than the capacity, which, youknow, fuels whatever that skill
is as it's manifested.
So that's, I think that's areally, really powerful
distinction that, that can helppeople navigate that safe space
where it's like, I maybe I'venever done a jumping Jack, or
I've never climbed a rope, orI've never done a pushup.
(29:35):
Well, the first time you do anyof those things, it's not going
to be very pretty, right.
Like, it's just, it's just not,but it's, you're learning
something new, you're expandingthings.
So that's, I think that's reallycool.
The the last thing that youtouched on there in that Oh man,
I just lost it.
(29:56):
Cause I thought it was I thoughtit was really, really important.
So I, I apologize.
It just slipped my mind.
Van Demone (30:08):
Now I can't remember.
Kyle Hamer (30:10):
It's gone, like I'm having old timers over here.
What I was w what I want to askis when you, when you think
about, so we'll cut here.
But when you think about the,the happiness and understanding
the difference between capacityand skill, if I'm a, if I'm a
(30:33):
manager or I'm a participant ona team where I have some, I have
some influence, maybe I'm notthe titled leader, but I have
some influence and I have somechallenges.
Are there practical things thatI can take without having to go
through?
One of your courses, are therethey're little tips that you
could say, Hey, here's someanecdotal ways to maybe just do
a couple of these things, goingback to your curiosity, small
(30:55):
steps.
What if, but embracing that tobegin creating that culture,
creating that safety, thatspace, where it's acceptable to
be seen as where maybe it's,you're more successful as being
seen as somebody who is tryingnew things.
And, you know, the, you know,the outcome that, that somebody
(31:15):
should have, or the ways thatpeople should be behaving to, to
really embrace happiness throughcreativity.
If I'm inside corporate Americatoday, and I can't take your
course because you're inCalifornia, what are the things
I can do with my team or thingsI can encourage my, my leaders
to, to embrace.
Van Demone (31:32):
So I think, I think the it's all it does.
It, this is something that'sthat has to be top down, right?
I teach this idea of bottom uplike that, as much as we can, we
want it.
We want it to grow things fromthe bottom up.
But because this idea of beingcreated in the workplace, it's
not going to work unless it'sfrom the top down, like people
(31:52):
from the top have to embrace itfirst so that they can spread
it.
So, so I think a lot of it,first of all, is, is, is your
mindset.
So if you believe that everyonein your organization on your
team has that creative capacityand believe in that philosophy
that you talked about in thevery beginning, one of our
foundational principles is thatgood ideas can come from anyone
in your organization.
(32:13):
And you can really embrace thosetwo things.
You will act differently anyway,right?
You'll ask people questions.
As you walk by their desk,you'll ask people, other people
for ideas.
So those types of things tobegin with.
So changing your minds around,like, where do I use come from
in my organization?
And the creative department, themarketing department are not the
only creative peoples here.
Like we're all creative.
So even having that mindset willchange the way you act.
(32:36):
And then when people are beingcreative, not to you know, let
them fail and let, I let evenbad crazy ideas come to the
table and come up fordiscussion.
Because what that does is itallows someone's idea.
Even as all comes with the ideain your head, you think, Oh,
(32:57):
that's never gonna work.
You know what, if you ha, if youget three people together into
discussion about that wild andcrazy idea, that can be honed
down and chiseled into somethingthat might work, but you've
knocked that down right away andsay, that's never going to work
well, you're right.
It's never gonna work.
A great tool that people canbring into the workplace for
that is from improv called.
Yes.
And have you heard of that tool?
(33:18):
No.
Have not that tell me more soyes.
Yes.
And it comes from improv.
So when you're, when you're inimprov, if you're an improv
artist, you don't have theopportunity to get on stage.
And if someone says something,you can't say like, Oh, I don't
want to do that.
Let's do another one.
Right.
You just have to roll as a yes.
And, and then make something up.
So the same thing.
(33:38):
So this is something that you,this is often used a
brainstorming in companieswhere, you know, you ask the
question, someone comes with anidea, the next person has to say
yes and, and build on that idea.
So you do this in a group forawhile.
I always do it two ways.
I, I first say, we're good.
We're going to do it.
But we say, but you know, likeyou had a couple of idea.
I'm gonna say yes, but whywouldn't work?
(34:02):
And you can see, you can justfeel the energy of the room,
like lowering.
And then we switched it up.
It was like, okay, now you'regonna come with idea.
And the next person, the nextwhat's, the next one is going to
build up, I think.
Yes.
And, and all of a sudden, likeyou, and like, even when I say
like, you can see me, no oneelse on the podcast, but I'm
like slumping down when I sayyes, but the second I said, yes,
and I'm sitting up.
(34:23):
So it's, it's a way to haveeveryone's ideas matter, be
supported and in anon-judgemental environment.
So after your yes, and exercise,all the ideas, get on the board
and now you can set criteria.
Right.
We also call it, we also calledthis protocol divers and
(34:44):
conference and thinking.
So, so I'm just giving you, I'mgoing all over the place, but
the yes, and this is great.
The other thing and the otherprinciple that can be used
immediately by anyone is thisconcept of divergent and
convergent thinking.
So again, you have a problemyou're trying to solve a
challenge is trying to overcome.
The first thing you want to dois divergent thinking.
You're going to get a real withyour team.
And you're going to tell herwe're going to do divergent
(35:06):
thinking, which basically meanshere's the question.
Here's the challenge.
Let's get every single idea onthe table.
And you're going to keep doingthat until every ideas on the
table, even the wild and crazyones.
And, and no one can say, Oh,that's not gonna work.
No one says aiding you, everyoneeverybody's idea gets on the
table.
And then you can move toconvergent thinking.
And then converse is thinkingnow, as a leader, I might say,
(35:28):
great, all these ideas areamazing.
Great, invalid, thank you forthose ideas.
But we, but let me give you theparameters.
This has to be in four weeks,this is our budget.
These are the people that needto be involved, and now you have
parameters.
So now you can go back to yourdivers and thinking ideas and be
like, okay, well, these are theones that will work in the
(35:48):
parameter.
And then you can work ondeveloping those.
But the I, but the concept likethe everyone's I did on that
table is going to make it morelikely that by the time you get
to whatever the end result isthat you have more people on
board,
Kyle Hamer (36:03):
It makes it makes sense to me.
I mean, it, yeah, it does.
Just, just given the fact thatyou've been part of plenty of
brainstorming and discussionswhere the first thing the person
facilitating wants to do isthey're their words.
No, we can't do that.
No, no, no, no.
Yeah.
(36:23):
And the thing that I think isreally amazing that I think you,
you very pointedly pulled outis, is how powerful language
really is.
You only changed one word, butthe one word that you changed
you and versus, but sameresponse and versus, but has a
dramatic impact on the emotion,the response, the creativity,
(36:47):
the empowerment of that room andthe person facilitating is the
person who has the privilege ofgiving or taking away those
feelings with just a simple wordchoice.
Van Demone (36:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And it goes, and that's what wetalk about that yes, an
exercise, as it's funny, can, itcan get funny and again, you
know, it's a way to involveeveryone, but really ultimately
what you're, what you're doingis building trust.
Kyle Hamer (37:16):
Absolutely.
100% about, Oh, is this is 2020.
So what have been for 1350 11,11 to 13 years ago, Melissa
Mayer Meyer was the, I want tosay COO or director of, of
design.
She was, she was a head up inGoogle.
(37:39):
She was, she was high up inGoogle.
And I saw a segment wheresomebody had done kind of like a
day in the life of one of theirdesign sessions or day in the
life of an engineer of a productengineer at Google.
And the, in the segment.
One of the things that I thoughtwas was brilliant about what
(37:59):
Melissa had done is she wouldsay, I, I understand what you're
saying.
And I agree with the, thesolution that you've provided,
but I disagree with your problemstatement.
So she, she kept coming back to,I agree with what you're saying,
but we haven't defined theproblem appropriately yet.
(38:19):
Let's go back to what the actualproblem is, which I thought was
just, was a fascinating way tothink.
It was like everything everybodywas saying, everyone was looking
at the solution.
And she was saying, I don't, Idon't disagree with your
solution.
I, as a matter of fact, if youguys started with that problem
statement, I would come to thesame conclusion as you, we need
to readdress the problemstatement.
(38:40):
How often do you find whenyou're working with, with groups
or companies or, or individualsas you're talking to them, that
the problem that they're reallystruggling with, the, the
limiter isn't the creativity, itisn't their ability to be
willing to fail, but it's theirinability to effectively define
the problem they're trying tosolve.
Van Demone (39:01):
Yeah.
So that, that does happen againbecause we are such as, you know
, we are so reactive and we wantto find a solution so quickly
that oftentimes the first stepis coming up with a problem and
whatever seems at hand seems tobe the problem.
So, but what we really want tolook at is like the root of that
(39:21):
problem.
I kind of like, I love that ideaof like, just kind of going back
and seeing like, if someoneStates that there's a problem
doing work around that, likeclarifying that like clarifying,
if that is really the problem.
And we do an exercise, I don't,I don't do a lot of strategy
work, but when we do, I also usethis, this process of of moving
(39:43):
backwards from like a tree.
Right.
So, so if you look at the, the,like the dead leaves, like
what's going on, like, what's,what's the problem.
Like they started the, theleaves like, well, so what's the
problem.
And people think like, that isthe problem, but then we'll go
deeper.
Okay.
What's in the, like, what aresome of the symptoms of that
problem?
And we'll go like, into thereason, like, okay, here's what
it was happening.
And they kind of dig into theroots and then you're like,
(40:03):
okay, so what you're seeing inthe roots, that's the actual
problem.
You were trying to treat asymptom
Kyle Hamer (40:10):
And in the, not maybe thinking of a different
Kaizen, but the Kaizen that youmentioned that you were mentor
mentor before, was he the personthat was part of the the Kaizen
events inside of the six, sixSigma ocean Conrad.
Okay.
Because the there's they, theyhave, what's called a Kaizen
event where you ask the fivewhys and the five whys are, you
(40:31):
know, w why do we have thisproblem to your, to your point
of the leaves are Brown.
Okay, well, why are the leavesBrown?
Will the leaves we should go getpaint and paint them, or we
should water the tree.
Well if, you know, if you gothrough the five fives and you
find out, well, the reason thatthe leaves are Brown is because
the tree has been drowned.
And the last thing that youshould have done was water the
tree.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like it's, it's, it'sunderstanding what is the actual
(40:54):
root of the, of the problem toget, to solving it now in your,
in your time, working with folksacross being, you know, varied,
whether they're, you know, superstraight laced all the way to
maybe there are creative insideof a sales or a marketing
organization, they've found havebeen some fun stories.
Are there one or two aha momentswhere you're just like, you
(41:15):
know, this was, this was reallyspecial for that person and help
them have this breakthrough or,or find something that normal
people wouldn't have seen.
Van Demone (41:25):
Yeah.
I've, I've seen that at like agroup level and an individual
level.
So from what I, I love workingwith the honor foundation is one
of the highlights of my career.
And I love getting emails fromthese again, like Navy seals,
Marine ranges, like that classwas amazing.
I really had some, somebreakthroughs about what I want
(41:45):
to do in my life.
And one very specific one waswas in, in, in one of the, one
of the programs, the firstquestion is like, so what build
one possibility?
Like we work with Legos plate orwhatever it is, build one
possibility for your future.
And often, and this one, Jen waslike, well, I want to be the CEO
of a, you know, a governmentallike on like engineering farm or
(42:07):
something like that.
But his last, but his last buildwas like, you know what?
I've always wanted to be atravel writer, the mailbox for
that.
So I was like, this is like,this is what creativity does.
And this is what allowingyourself that time to be
creative allows you to reallyget to what you love rather than
what you left brain thinking,think you should be doing.
(42:28):
So that was one, one story on anindividual level.
And then there was anotherorganization I was working with
where they had multiplesatellite offices.
Everyone would do somethingdifferent.
There was no cohesion betweenany of the offices.
So we started building buildideas to solve the problem of
how can we be a more cohesiveworldwide company.
And so on had built this littlea little metaphor for beam me up
(42:52):
Scotty from star Trek, right?
And again, like, could youimagine you're in a corporate
office?
And you're like, Oh wow.
It was being people to anotherCaucasian that clearly wouldn't
go over well, but because we'rebuilding, they could build this
model as, and wild and crazyideas are welcome.
That idea made it to the table.
Of course, cause all I do ismake it a table.
And then within conversation,what that idea of beam me up,
(43:15):
Scotty ended up becoming andthey ended up using, it was this
concept of a work abroadprogram.
So they developed this workabroad program where someone
from the marketing team in LosAngeles, we'd go for a weekend
and shadow the marketing team inLondon and then come back with
those ideas.
They weren't exactly beamingthem to London, but that's where
(43:35):
that concept came from the ideaof a study abroad program or a
work abroad.
Kyle Hamer (43:39):
That's pretty, I mean, that's pretty fun given,
you know, a traveling, it soundslike it'd be a blast right now,
given the we're all a little bitlimited in where we can go, but
You might come out with aradioactive glow who knows what
it'll happen at this point?
Oh favorite book from the last24 months, the best book you've
(44:01):
written the last two years,
Van Demone (44:03):
I just finished reading.
I read so as you don't have aseven year old.
So I really haven't done thatmuch reading in seven years or
at least not a full book, but Iwould have to say my favorite
book that I've recently read iscalled Israel, Elizabeth
Gilbert, big magic.
It's an, a phenomenal book andspeak to a lot of the work that
I do around creativity.
(44:24):
And there's one idea from herbook that I'd love to share.
It's kind of end this as theidea that ideas are ideas, our
energy, right?
So ideas are floating around usall the time and they are
tapping on our shoulder askingus to bring them to life.
Cause I dig it only come to lifethrough a human being and they
can tap for a moment.
They might tap for years, but ifyou don't answer them, they'll
(44:46):
find someone else.
So I think ideas come to us asour curiosities.
So that's why I think it's soimportant to pay attention to
those curiosities because theidea tapping on the shoulder
saying like, listen to me, Iwant you to bring me to life.
Kyle Hamer (45:02):
I really don't think that there's any better way to
end this.
Then with that concept of a wayto bring your ideas to life and
finding happiness and thingsthat you know are creating
something new.
That's, that's just fantastic.
If somebody wants to get aholdof you, if they're there, you
need to reach out.
(45:22):
They're like, Hey, I th this hasbeen great.
Bernie.
Brown's like, Hey, I've got toget ahold of van.
What, what's the best way forthem?
Van Demone (45:28):
And you can find me on my
website@worksmartadvantage.com.
And I basically live onLinkedIn.
So you can also find me thereunder my name.
Kyle Hamer (45:38):
That's fantastic.
Well, thank you so much for, foryour insights and sharing.
It's been a delight to have youon the show today, van.
Van Demone (45:45):
Yeah.
Thank you so much, Kyle.
I really enjoyed it.
I thank you for your time aswell.
And for having me on,
Kyle Hamer (45:50):
Oh, it's been fantastic.
I'm your host, Kyle Haimer.
You've been listening to TheSummit Podcast until next week.
Make sure you like follow orsubscribe and check out the
comments and description forlinks to Van's information.
So you can get in contact withher again.
Thanks for listening.
And until next week, keepgrowing, keep grinding and keep
finding your greatness.
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