September 11, 2024 • 33 mins
Neil and Lindsey sit down for a discussion on the importance of community within the church, emphasizing that God's design for His church is to function as a family where members are interconnected and grow together in faith. Individuals are not meant to live in isolation but rather thrive in a supportive community that reflects the love of Christ. The church is the central hub of God's authority and power, with Jesus walking among His people, which signifies a unique presence and purpose within the gathered body.
The conversation discusses why some individuals may struggle to connect with a church community, such as past church hurt, difficulty finding a suitable church, or fear of vulnerability. It suggests that these issues often stem from a self-focused perspective, where personal experiences overshadow the collective mission of the church, which is centered on Jesus.
The conversation acknowledges the reality of pain that many of us have experienced at the hands of churches and other believers but insists that God's design for the church remains unchanged…and healing must come from God rather than from seeking the perfect church experience. This is an encouragement to trust that God will lead us to a healthy church family that fosters growth and maturity in faith, while also recognizing that the scars from past hurts can become a testament to one's journey in choosing forgiveness and love.
We also discuss the issue of church consumerism, where individuals approach church with a mindset focused on personal preferences rather than a commitment to community and God’s design for His house. This attitude can lead to a lack of genuine connection and spiritual stagnation. We encourage believers to surrender their preferences and seek God's heart for their involvement in a church, emphasizing that true growth occurs in the context of deep, committed relationships.
Finally, the conversation concludes with a call to action for those who may feel disconnected or disillusioned with the church. We urge individuals to engage with their local church, serve, and build relationships, as this is where they will find the support and accountability necessary for spiritual growth. We also recommend various resources, including books and podcasts, to help individuals deepen their understanding of the church's role in God's plan. Overall, we hope to present a compelling case for the importance of the church as a community where believers can grow, heal, and fulfill their God-given purpose together.
This is a supplemental discussion to last Sunday's message, "Clothed in Glory: How Relationships Shape Our Spiritual Garments." We would encourage you to take a listen.
Additional resources mentioned in the podcast:
Habitation church: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/habitation-church/id1578531408
The King's People: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kings-people/id449544873
Cross Culture Chicago: https://crossculturechicago.org/messages
For more information on THE TABLE please visit:
www.thetablecalifornia.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How do we begin?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I don't know.
Look, I just looked at this.
This is so funny.
I looked down, I had thiswritten in the margin.
It's from Psalm 81.
The Lord says to IsraelRemember my faithfulness and
open your mouth wide and I willfill it.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So thank you, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So let's open our mouths.
Thank you, Jesus.
So let's open our mouths.
So this past Sunday we talkedabout the church, God's design
for his church being a community, a family connected to one
another.
And by way of this rhythm oflife on life with one another,
(00:43):
we become conformed to the imageof Jesus, we mature, we grow,
we become who we actually are.
But we don't exist in vacuums.
We're not designed to liveisolated, we're designed to live
in community, and that's whatthe church is.
And so we've talked about this,just you and I, in the past.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So we're going to try to talk about it again.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just you and I, but not really Just you and I, but
not really.
It's our understanding ofScripture and God's design and
church history that theauthority that Jesus gives to
his people is concentrated inthe church in a very unique way,
(01:34):
in a way that it is notconcentrated in individuals or
in separate ministries thatwould admit.
We are not a church.
We are, you know, a ministry tothe homeless.
We are, whatever it might be,god intends for his church to be
(01:56):
the nucleus of all of hisatomic power, atomic power to be
the place where everything inthe kingdom, in this world,
issues from and through.
(02:21):
Jesus says in Revelation,chapter two, he says I am the
one who walks among thelampstands.
And just before that, at theend of chapter one, he says the
lampstand is the church.
He's the one who's walking inthe midst of his church.
Is he with us as individuals?
Yes, amen, he will never leaveus nor forsake us.
But there's something specialand unique about his family
(02:42):
gathered together as his churchthat pulls him in and he walks
among.
Ok, that was my introduction.
Now over to you.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, as you were talking, I was just thinking you
know, why would Jesus choose tohouse his power and authority
primarily in the church, like,why can individuals not carry it
alone, isolated to the degreethat it can be found buried
(03:18):
within the body, being the body?
And um, first thing that cameto mind was it's because his
church is connected to him inlove and to each other in love
as a body that's dependent oneach other.
(03:38):
So that if I'm walking in ameasure of authority, there will
be things that I'm moremeasured about how I say it,
when I say it, the manner inwhich I say it, because my
motivating factor is love.
I love you as I love myself,because we are connected as one
(04:00):
body.
And I think that's reallybeautiful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What do you mean by held together by love?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, I think Paul addresses it in Ephesians 4.
When Jesus ascended, he gavegifts to man, and it talks about
all of the offices that we'revery familiar with.
And Paul goes on to say thepurpose of these is to come up
underneath to serve and to buildup the body.
(04:29):
And then he goes on to say inEphesians 4, 15.
Rather speaking truth and love,we are to grow up in every way
into him, who is the head, andto Christ, from whom the whole
body, joined and held togetherby every joint with which it is
equipped, when each part isworking properly, makes the body
(04:54):
grow so that it builds itselfup in love.
So the design is that the bodywhat I would say is the local
church is an expression of thatis that we are being fit
together and built up in him,who is love.
And as we do this, we'relearning how to prefer others
(05:20):
over myself, how to bear yourburdens, how to walk out
Corinthians 13 with each other,you know, patient with each
other, believing the best ineach other.
When we are relationally fittogether in Christ like that,
then if I have a prophetic wordfor you, I'm going to measure it
(05:46):
carefully and I'm going to haveto see how that impacts you and
I think as we're doing, lifetogether yes you're going to see
the result of it.
And I love you as I love myself,you know.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And so because these things are happening within the
body.
That's why God can entrust suchauthority to a collection of
people.
They're going through theprocess that God intends for
every one of his children to gothrough, but it only happens
through community, through lifetogether, through discipleship,
(06:21):
through accountability.
Life together throughdiscipleship, through
accountability.
These gifts were given so thatthe body could be built up and
matured and come to a measure offullness Ephesians 1, 22 and 23
.
And he put all things under hisfeet.
The father put all things underthe son's feet and gave him
Jesus to be head over.
(06:43):
The church is the fullness ofChrist in the earth.
The whole body, joined and knittogether by what every joint
supplies according to theeffective working by which every
part does its share, causesgrowth of the body.
(07:04):
The its share causes growth ofthe body.
The body is causing growth ofthe body.
How?
By bumping into one another andhacking off those unseemly,
uncrucified parts of ourpersonality that are going to be
pampered in the prayer closet.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It's true, you know, but when we encounter, like I
mentioned on Sunday, thisintersection of my life with
yours, that collision is goingto cause my flesh to rear its
head up, be exposed andidentified so that it can be
dealt with and crucifiedAccording to the effect of
(07:50):
working by which every part doesits share, causing growth of
the body for the building up ofitself in love.
A hand disconnected from thebody is gross.
That's more in common with acrime scene than with the gospel
.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Not only that is it an abnormality?
It's an aberration, it'sunnatural, but it's the same
thing with individuals.
We must be connected to thebody.
So I think it's been ourexperience that the two main
reasons that someone's not goingto be connected to a church
body is church hurt.
Is church hurt or they can'tjust find that they can't find a
(08:24):
church that meets their needs,for what they are looking for in
a church or whatever might bewhat would you say to those two
situations?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I think there's a third.
Can I add a third?
Ok, I think there's a third andI think, well, I know we've
seen it often, and I think, well, I know we've seen it often,
(08:59):
and that is there are people whogo to many different places
required to be planted in aplace where people can see your
mess and have access to yourheart.
It's scary.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So it's almost like a self-preservation type thing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I mean, I think so.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So we've got church hurt, we've got just can't find
a good one, and scared to beopen and vulnerable.
Oh, did you think of it before?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
no, no, no I'm like blown away because I'm just now
seeing the.
The common denominator in everyone of those is self me.
Yeah, I'm hurt, I I'm afraid,I'm vulnerable.
I don't like this.
It's me, me, me driven.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And the church exists for.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Jesus, jesus yeah.
That's a great great point, Iwould say that the ones who have
experienced church hurt, that'sreal pain.
Church hurt pain is one of themore difficult heart injuries to
(10:15):
heal from, because you havemade yourself vulnerable, you
have exposed your heart and it'sgotten wounded or broken.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
What do you say to the person who says I haven't
just been hurt once.
I've said the same thing you'resaying, so I got back in, I
tried again at a differentchurch and I was hurt again?
The ones who have been hurtmultiple times and they're like
I just cannot find a healthychurch.
What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I believe oftentimes within local church communities
we can hurt each other more thanthe world does, and I don't
know why.
I don't understand why.
But I believe that the healingfor those wounds we have to look
(11:10):
to Jesus for that.
We can't look to a betterchurch experience to heal that
wound.
We can't look to a personseeing that they were wrong and
apologizing and that heals thewound in my heart.
Like hurt has to be healed bygod, we have to go to him to get
(11:33):
that healed.
And as long as we carry thathurt in us and we go from place
to place to place looking for itto be healed in a church, Like
people can't heal that hurt.
Only God can heal that hurt andhe will do it.
(11:54):
I'm confident that he will.
I mean as sure as I'm confidentthat it's his heart to heal
limbs and bodies that are out oforder.
I believe that it's his heartand his nature to heal hearts
that are hurting when they'regiven over to him.
Part of navigating the churchhurt and getting ourselves back
(12:19):
into connection with the body isgoing through a process of
letting God heal our hearts andnot expecting another or better
community will do it becausewe're flawed.
You know, we're still figuringit out.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, I don't think it's anything new that God's
people have misrepresented himand hurt one another.
That story is as old as time,but it doesn't change God's
design, like it doesn't changehis plan.
His plan is the church.
I mean, we've had seasons inchurch history where not only
(12:59):
are believers hurting oneanother, they're killing one
another, but the plan doesn'tchange.
Now that kind of soundsinsensitive to those who have
experienced church hurt.
We have experienced church hurttoo, but it still doesn't
change God's design.
I love the point that youpointed out.
(13:20):
The people are not going to bethe solution.
Jesus is always the solutionand ultimately he's going to be
found within his family.
So my counsel would be believethat God is going to bring you
to a healthy church family thatcan mature you and grow you and
(13:41):
conform you into his image, andthat you will be part of that
fullness that fills all things.
Until that day happens, also,be confident, knowing that every
wound that you've experiencedat the hands of other believers
is leaving a glorious mark onyou.
Like Jesus himself bears themarks of his suffering.
(14:04):
Like right now there's a manseated in heaven with scars on
his body, and those scars areglorious In the same way, every
time that we choose the way ofthe cross, we choose to forgive
our brother who hurts us.
We choose not to carry offense,we choose to believe the best
in God's people.
It's going to leave a mark andit's going to be beautiful.
(14:25):
Okay what about the ones whocannot find?
And I've even felt this way inyears past, like man, we just
can't find a good church, likewe try and just having a hard
time finding a good church.
What would you say to those whocannot find a good church?
Why do you keep doing this to?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
me Get over yourself.
No, I would say that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Okay, how about this?
What would you say to Lindsay10, 15 years ago, however many
years ago, who is saying thosesame things?
Can't find a good church.
I'm trying and I just can'tfind anything, so we just won't
go.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
What would I say to myself?
Get over yourself, I would.
But what I would say to someoneelse might be, might be.
I would ask the Lord, like whatdoes his heart desire for me,
for my family, and calls myheart to line up with what his
(15:35):
heart is for me?
I think, probably along the way, you start to surrender things
that you think you have to havethings that feel super important
to you.
You yield those things becauseyou're carrying his heart for
where he wants you to be, andthen he has your yes, because he
(15:58):
has a place for everybody.
He has a family for everybody,a place for everybody, he is a
family for everybody.
I think we're just aware of ourlikes and our dislikes and our
preferences, you know.
So I think it's being willing tosurrender your preferences.
Get his heart and say yes towhere he's leading you and then
(16:18):
leave your preferences at thedoor.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, okay.
One thing to say to that thisidea that we could pick and
choose our church based on ourown personal preferences and
what we would like to see in achurch.
It is a modern invention, it'sa first world problem.
Yeah, like hundreds of yearsago there was one church in town
, is one church in town inplaces in the world right now
(16:46):
there is one church meeting inone living room and it's long
distance to get to the nextliving room where christians are
gathering.
So this idea that that we couldfind our perfect flavor within
a church, it is more of anindication of the state of our
flesh in the state of our ownpersonal preferences than it is
the state of the church withinour city.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Okay.
And then the third one, theones who are disconnected from a
local body because they'regoing from place to place to
place, so they're doing a lot ofchurch activity but they're not
planted anywhere.
What would you say to thosefolks?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, Trying to season my words with salt like
you did, I would say you're notconnected to a body.
You may be saved, you may beborn again, but you are not
connected to his body.
So you are in.
You're very susceptible, you'rein a dangerous position because
(17:47):
time and again we've seen wherethat way of living leads to
either plateauing in your walkwith Jesus and just kind of
leveling out and not progressingand maturing, or experiencing
some sort of crisis, whetherit's an attack from the enemy or
just life, and it just throwsyou off the rails.
(18:07):
You don't have God's peoplearound you to help you through
that crisis, you know.
So you're very susceptible.
Like we said on Sunday, thelion is looking for that one
zebra who's isolated out on thefringes of the pack, not the
ones who are connected in thevery center.
The enemy is prowling aroundlike a lion looking for someone
(18:29):
to devour, and the easy pickings, the low hanging fruit, are the
ones who are disconnected fromthe body.
I would also ask some seriousquestions of why?
Why are you not giving yourselfover to the hard work of
relationship?
Why are you satisfying yourcraving for fellowship, but
(18:56):
doing it in a surface level, byjust grazing and attending as
opposing to committing yourselfto something and going deep,
like where actual relationshiphappens.
My question would be why Is ita wound that you've suffered in
the past?
Let's talk to that.
Let's ask Jesus to heal that.
Is it insecurity, a fear ofbeing vulnerable?
(19:19):
Is it just personal preference?
Like maybe you just prefer tobe alone?
Like all of those things arereal.
But like, let's talk throughthat.
Let's ask Jesus to come in andheal those places so that you
can be connected to his body.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think oftentimes it's a reflection of, I think
that the second two, both theones who can't find a place that
they just like enough to landand to plant themselves, and
then to the ones who go to awhole bunch of different places
but aren't really plantedanywhere.
The common thing theresomething common is that it's a
(20:04):
reflection of, like church,consumerism, which is I'm coming
to receive to take, to take, totake, to take, and it's like I
want to go from encounter toencounter, to encounter, to
encounter.
And those encounters with Jesus,as beautiful as they are, they
(20:28):
don't take root into your lifeuntil you have the friction of
community and even thetenderness that it produces in
your heart for those seeds,those encounter seeds to sink
down deep, that's in community.
It's the constant tilling overof the soil in your heart.
(20:49):
You know those encounter.
Seeds will produce fruit whenthe soil is tender.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
within community, yeah, so I think we see from
Paul's letter specifically tothe Ephesians and the consistent
teaching of scripture.
The church, the family of God,is the place where we become
conformed to the image of Jesus.
Where we are, you know, we'reled, we're taught, we're
(21:18):
prophesied over, we'reencouraged, we're edified, we're
built up, we're counseled,we're shown the mysteries of
scripture.
Where we experience and weshare the spirit with one
another, like we're goingthrough the process of becoming
like Jesus, his way, which iswith his people.
(21:38):
I believe that Jesus sees thatand he recognizes he can trust
heavenly things to that companyof people.
It's not that the isolatedindividual isn't gifted, isn't
anointed for ministry, but Ihave to believe that this
individual is setting themselvesup for a possibility of injury
(22:02):
to themselves and to others ifthey continue to walk isolated
and disconnected from thisfamily that is conforming itself
to the image of Jesus Like.
My question would be to theisolated individual okay, what
about your blind spots?
What about your weaknesses thatyou may or may not know about
(22:23):
yourself?
How are you walking outhumility, forgiveness, meekness,
service, in a disconnected wayfrom the body, like?
What does that look like?
And if you're not walking inthose things, what makes you
think that you can handle theweight of the anointing that you
(22:45):
carry Like we've seen endlessstories of individuals with very
heavy anointings who end upgetting crushed under the weight
of this gifting because they'renot connected to a body,
they're not accountable.
That's a whole other topic foranother day.
So I believe that God'sauthority is entrusted to his
(23:09):
church because it's within thechurch that God's people are
growing up into a measure offullness that can carry that
authority.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, I guess my heart, even in having this
conversation and even if there'sjust one person that hears it
and it shifts their mindsetabout the value and the beauty
of the local church, it's worthit.
The heart of God is for hislocal church.
(23:45):
He loves her and he wants togive himself to her man.
You know what's amazing.
I'm sorry this doesn't have tobe no man, whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
This is amazing.
Let her meet, let her cook, letthe dog hunt.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Are you talking about him?
No, oh, you know what's amazingto me?
I'm sitting here looking atwhat Paul says in Ephesians 3,
when he says To me, though I'mthe very least of all saints,
this grace was given to preachto the Gentiles the unsearchable
(24:23):
riches of Christ and to bringlight for everyone.
What is the plan of the mysteryhidden for all ages in God?
Who created all things Like?
What is this mystery, paul?
I want to see, so that, throughthe church, the manifold wisdom
of God might be made known tothe rulers and authorities in
(24:45):
heavenly places.
It is the mandate on the churchto make the wisdom of God known
to the rulers and theauthorities in heavenly places,
in heavenly places.
(25:11):
So it's no odd thing that Paullays this out and goes straight
into a prayer for the body to berooted and grounded in love,
like love, has to be thegovernor for the body to fit and
hold it together so that it isequipped to carry the wisdom of
God and be a testimony to thepowers and principalities of the
air.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So good.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I love apostles.
I love that they tell you whatyou need to know and then they
pray it out in heavenly places,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I wrote a couple things down from just different
sources that I've read over theyears.
I want to read some of this.
Some of it's my own thoughts,but the majority of it is
influenced by others.
God-given authority is given tothe God-established church.
That was my own.
Whoa Read it again for us usgod-given authority is given to
(26:06):
the god I deserve that god-givenauthority is given to the
god-established church, watchmanknee.
He says this god's riches todayare among the church.
The lord Lord's word upon thisrock I'll build my church is
very clear.
The result is the gates ofHades shall not prevail against
(26:28):
it.
This promise is for the church,not for individuals.
Many times it's very difficultfor individuals to resist the
enemy, but as soon as the churchappears, satan is defeated.
So good yeah.
Watchman Nee says this.
We can't assume that justbecause 1,000 people gather
together on Sunday that they'rethe church.
(26:48):
Praise God that 1,000 peoplecan be the church, but 1,000
people may still be 1,000individuals.
His point is are those 1,000people connected in a
relationship sharing the spiritwith one another, or are they
just simply attending a building, like what separates them from,
I don't know, a country club?
(27:09):
Okay, this is one by a brothernamed Scott Jathani.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncinghis name right, but he wrote a
book what If Jesus Was SeriousAbout the Church?
Highly recommend the book.
Super easy to read, reallysimple.
Even has illustrations likedrawings and illustrations.
Really cool what it's calledwhat if Jesus was serious about
the church?
He says this long beforecelebrity pastors smoke machines
(27:32):
or four-year coffee bars.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Four-year.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Four-year coffee bars .
The church was simply a family.
In the beginning, the churchwas a fellowship of men and
women centered on the livingChrist.
Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy.
Then the church moved to Rome,where it became an institution.
Next it moved to Europe, whereit became a culture, and finally
(27:57):
it moved to America, where itbecame an enterprise.
And when something becomes anenterprise like that, it becomes
consumer-based.
This is what I want, this iswhat I prefer.
Well, let's cater to what youwant, so let's make church what
it is that you want, and we losesight of the fact that church
(28:18):
belongs to Jesus.
What does he want in his house?
He wants to see his familycoming together.
Like any father, he wants hiskids to be together, growing,
maturing, expressing love forone another, not perfect, but
getting there by way of theSpirit, being shared with one
(28:41):
another.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I'm afraid I might cry.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I feel there's been a couple of times when you're
reading in Revelation.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I'm going to read that again.
I quoted it, but let me justread it how it's written.
The end of Revelation 1,.
Jesus says the mystery of theseven stars which you saw in my
right hand and the seven goldenlampstands.
The seven stars are the angelsof the seven churches and the
seven lampstands which you saware the seven churches.
(29:11):
To the angel of the church ofEphesus, write these things,
says he who holds the sevenstars in his right hand and who
walks in the midst of the goldenlampstands.
And he goes on to say I knowyour work, I know your labor.
He walks amongst the lampstand.
That's where Jesus is going fora walk and that's where I want
(29:33):
to be.
So our encouragement would be ifyou are in a church and it's
not perfect, it's okay.
Be planted, serve, pray forgrace to be poured out, pray for
revival, pray for God to pourout his spirit, spirit out.
If you're in a church and youlove it, praise God, invite
(29:56):
others to come, not for thebuilding up of a ministry brand,
but if you found a healthyplace, man, invite people there.
If you are not connected to achurch, we would encourage you
to get connected to a church.
Begin the process of becomingfamily with people.
It takes time, so go ahead andbegin.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Learn how to forgive, learn how to cook meals for
people, learn how to watch otherpeople's kids, learn how to
walk in humility.
Did I say learn how to serve?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
No, did I say learn how to forgive.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Worth repeating yes.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And just believe.
Believe that this is God'sdesign for how he's going to
demonstrate his kingdom to ourgeneration.
It's through his people.
Okay, so finally, somerecommendations.
For folks who they can drinkfrom other wells, who have good
understanding of the church, Iwould say Bob Gladstone.
(31:02):
He's written a couple of books,phenomenal.
Look him up on YouTube eitherunder Bob Gladstone or Robert
Gladstone, watchman Nee,phenomenal book Normal Christian
Church Life.
He also has another one FurtherTalks on the Church Life.
Two phenomenal books.
Another one would be Art Katz alittle deeper, a little more
(31:24):
dense, thick, rich, but greatinsight on God's eternal plan
and purpose for the church.
And then maybe some podcasts,others that you can listen to
Our friends in Orlando, florida,Habitation Church.
They put up their messagesevery week.
They speak with a similar DNA,they carry the same heart for
(31:45):
God's church.
Habitation Church, the King'sPeople in Charlotte, north
Carolina same thing.
Cross Culture Church in Chicagosame thing.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And what else.
I think we can put the links upto those in the podcast
description to some of thoseresources which would be good, I
would add, while this isn't youknow a human being alive today,
or a particular book, but Iwould add to that the book of
Ephesians.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
The living word.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yes, yes, because we spent a lot of time in Ephesians
today and it's one of myfavorite books of the Bible,
because it reminds us who Christis, who we are to be in him,
how we are to be found in him,and then how we are to be
(32:46):
together as the body, as thechurch.
And it's beautifully written.
Paul's an amazing writer.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, so read through the book of Ephesians slowly,
prayerfully, prayerfully, in thespirit.
You know, get some goodcommentaries that flesh some of
these things out.
Yeah, amen, good, good point,all right, anything else?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
That's it.
How do we begin?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I don't know.
Look, I just looked at this.
This is so funny.
I looked down, I had thiswritten in the margin.
It's from Psalm 81.
The Lord says to IsraelRemember my faithfulness and
open your mouth wide and I willfill it.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
So thank you, Jesus.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
So let's open our mouths.
Thank you, Jesus.
So let's open our mouths.
So this past Sunday we talkedabout the church, God's design
for his church being a community, a family connected to one
another.
And by way of this rhythm oflife on life with one another,
(00:43):
we become conformed to the imageof Jesus, we mature, we grow,
we become who we actually are.
But we don't exist in vacuums.
We're not designed to liveisolated, we're designed to live
in community, and that's whatthe church is.
And so we've talked about this,just you and I, in the past.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So we're going to try to talk about it again.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just you and I, but not really Just you and I, but
not really.
It's our understanding ofScripture and God's design and
church history that theauthority that Jesus gives to
his people is concentrated inthe church in a very unique way,
(01:34):
in a way that it is notconcentrated in individuals or
in separate ministries thatwould admit.
We are not a church.
We are, you know, a ministry tothe homeless.
We are, whatever it might be,god intends for his church to be
(01:56):
the nucleus of all of hisatomic power, atomic power to be
the place where everything inthe kingdom, in this world,
issues from and through.
(02:21):
Jesus says in Revelation,chapter two, he says I am the
one who walks among thelampstands.
And just before that, at theend of chapter one, he says the
lampstand is the church.
He's the one who's walking inthe midst of his church.
Is he with us as individuals?
Yes, amen, he will never leaveus nor forsake us.
But there's something specialand unique about his family
(02:42):
gathered together as his churchthat pulls him in and he walks
among.
Ok, that was my introduction.
Now over to you.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Well, as you were talking, I was just thinking you
know, why would Jesus choose tohouse his power and authority
primarily in the church, like,why can individuals not carry it
alone, isolated to the degreethat it can be found buried
(03:18):
within the body, being the body?
And um, first thing that cameto mind was it's because his
church is connected to him inlove and to each other in love
as a body that's dependent oneach other.
(03:38):
So that if I'm walking in ameasure of authority, there will
be things that I'm moremeasured about how I say it,
when I say it, the manner inwhich I say it, because my
motivating factor is love.
I love you as I love myself,because we are connected as one
(04:00):
body.
And I think that's reallybeautiful, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
What do you mean by held together by love?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Well, I think Paul addresses it in Ephesians 4.
When Jesus ascended, he gavegifts to man, and it talks about
all of the offices that we'revery familiar with.
And Paul goes on to say thepurpose of these is to come up
underneath to serve and to buildup the body.
(04:29):
And then he goes on to say inEphesians 4, 15.
Rather speaking truth and love,we are to grow up in every way
into him, who is the head, andto Christ, from whom the whole
body, joined and held togetherby every joint with which it is
equipped, when each part isworking properly, makes the body
(04:54):
grow so that it builds itselfup in love.
So the design is that the bodywhat I would say is the local
church is an expression of thatis that we are being fit
together and built up in him,who is love.
And as we do this, we'relearning how to prefer others
(05:20):
over myself, how to bear yourburdens, how to walk out
Corinthians 13 with each other,you know, patient with each
other, believing the best ineach other.
When we are relationally fittogether in Christ like that,
then if I have a prophetic wordfor you, I'm going to measure it
(05:46):
carefully and I'm going to haveto see how that impacts you and
I think as we're doing, lifetogether yes you're going to see
the result of it.
And I love you as I love myself,you know.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And so because these things are happening within the
body.
That's why God can entrust suchauthority to a collection of
people.
They're going through theprocess that God intends for
every one of his children to gothrough, but it only happens
through community, through lifetogether, through discipleship,
(06:21):
through accountability.
Life together throughdiscipleship, through
accountability.
These gifts were given so thatthe body could be built up and
matured and come to a measure offullness Ephesians 1, 22 and 23
.
And he put all things under hisfeet.
The father put all things underthe son's feet and gave him
Jesus to be head over.
(06:43):
The church is the fullness ofChrist in the earth.
The whole body, joined and knittogether by what every joint
supplies according to theeffective working by which every
part does its share, causesgrowth of the body.
(07:04):
The its share causes growth ofthe body.
The body is causing growth ofthe body.
How?
By bumping into one another andhacking off those unseemly,
uncrucified parts of ourpersonality that are going to be
pampered in the prayer closet.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Let's be honest about it.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It's true, you know, but when we encounter, like I
mentioned on Sunday, thisintersection of my life with
yours, that collision is goingto cause my flesh to rear its
head up, be exposed andidentified so that it can be
dealt with and crucifiedAccording to the effect of
(07:50):
working by which every part doesits share, causing growth of
the body for the building up ofitself in love.
A hand disconnected from thebody is gross.
That's more in common with acrime scene than with the gospel
.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Not only that is it an abnormality?
It's an aberration, it'sunnatural, but it's the same
thing with individuals.
We must be connected to thebody.
So I think it's been ourexperience that the two main
reasons that someone's not goingto be connected to a church
body is church hurt.
Is church hurt or they can'tjust find that they can't find a
(08:24):
church that meets their needs,for what they are looking for in
a church or whatever might bewhat would you say to those two
situations?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I think there's a third.
Can I add a third?
Ok, I think there's a third andI think, well, I know we've
seen it often, and I think, well, I know we've seen it often,
(08:59):
and that is there are people whogo to many different places
required to be planted in aplace where people can see your
mess and have access to yourheart.
It's scary.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So it's almost like a self-preservation type thing.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I mean, I think so.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So we've got church hurt, we've got just can't find
a good one, and scared to beopen and vulnerable.
Oh, did you think of it before?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
no, no, no I'm like blown away because I'm just now
seeing the.
The common denominator in everyone of those is self me.
Yeah, I'm hurt, I I'm afraid,I'm vulnerable.
I don't like this.
It's me, me, me driven.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And the church exists for.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Jesus, jesus yeah.
That's a great great point, Iwould say that the ones who have
experienced church hurt, that'sreal pain.
Church hurt pain is one of themore difficult heart injuries to
(10:15):
heal from, because you havemade yourself vulnerable, you
have exposed your heart and it'sgotten wounded or broken.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
What do you say to the person who says I haven't
just been hurt once.
I've said the same thing you'resaying, so I got back in, I
tried again at a differentchurch and I was hurt again?
The ones who have been hurtmultiple times and they're like
I just cannot find a healthychurch.
What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I believe oftentimes within local church communities
we can hurt each other more thanthe world does, and I don't
know why.
I don't understand why.
But I believe that the healingfor those wounds we have to look
(11:10):
to Jesus for that.
We can't look to a betterchurch experience to heal that
wound.
We can't look to a personseeing that they were wrong and
apologizing and that heals thewound in my heart.
Like hurt has to be healed bygod, we have to go to him to get
(11:33):
that healed.
And as long as we carry thathurt in us and we go from place
to place to place looking for itto be healed in a church, Like
people can't heal that hurt.
Only God can heal that hurt andhe will do it.
(11:54):
I'm confident that he will.
I mean as sure as I'm confidentthat it's his heart to heal
limbs and bodies that are out oforder.
I believe that it's his heartand his nature to heal hearts
that are hurting when they'regiven over to him.
Part of navigating the churchhurt and getting ourselves back
(12:19):
into connection with the body isgoing through a process of
letting God heal our hearts andnot expecting another or better
community will do it becausewe're flawed.
You know, we're still figuringit out.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, I don't think it's anything new that God's
people have misrepresented himand hurt one another.
That story is as old as time,but it doesn't change God's
design, like it doesn't changehis plan.
His plan is the church.
I mean, we've had seasons inchurch history where not only
(12:59):
are believers hurting oneanother, they're killing one
another, but the plan doesn'tchange.
Now that kind of soundsinsensitive to those who have
experienced church hurt.
We have experienced church hurttoo, but it still doesn't
change God's design.
I love the point that youpointed out.
(13:20):
The people are not going to bethe solution.
Jesus is always the solutionand ultimately he's going to be
found within his family.
So my counsel would be believethat God is going to bring you
to a healthy church family thatcan mature you and grow you and
(13:41):
conform you into his image, andthat you will be part of that
fullness that fills all things.
Until that day happens, also,be confident, knowing that every
wound that you've experiencedat the hands of other believers
is leaving a glorious mark onyou.
Like Jesus himself bears themarks of his suffering.
(14:04):
Like right now there's a manseated in heaven with scars on
his body, and those scars areglorious In the same way, every
time that we choose the way ofthe cross, we choose to forgive
our brother who hurts us.
We choose not to carry offense,we choose to believe the best
in God's people.
It's going to leave a mark andit's going to be beautiful.
(14:25):
Okay what about the ones whocannot find?
And I've even felt this way inyears past, like man, we just
can't find a good church, likewe try and just having a hard
time finding a good church.
What would you say to those whocannot find a good church?
Why do you keep doing this to?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
me Get over yourself.
No, I would say that.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Okay, how about this?
What would you say to Lindsay10, 15 years ago, however many
years ago, who is saying thosesame things?
Can't find a good church.
I'm trying and I just can'tfind anything, so we just won't
go.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
What would I say to myself?
Get over yourself, I would.
But what I would say to someoneelse might be, might be.
I would ask the Lord, like whatdoes his heart desire for me,
for my family, and calls myheart to line up with what his
(15:35):
heart is for me?
I think, probably along the way, you start to surrender things
that you think you have to havethings that feel super important
to you.
You yield those things becauseyou're carrying his heart for
where he wants you to be, andthen he has your yes, because he
(15:58):
has a place for everybody.
He has a family for everybody,a place for everybody, he is a
family for everybody.
I think we're just aware of ourlikes and our dislikes and our
preferences, you know.
So I think it's being willing tosurrender your preferences.
Get his heart and say yes towhere he's leading you and then
(16:18):
leave your preferences at thedoor.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, okay.
One thing to say to that thisidea that we could pick and
choose our church based on ourown personal preferences and
what we would like to see in achurch.
It is a modern invention, it'sa first world problem.
Yeah, like hundreds of yearsago there was one church in town
, is one church in town inplaces in the world right now
(16:46):
there is one church meeting inone living room and it's long
distance to get to the nextliving room where christians are
gathering.
So this idea that that we couldfind our perfect flavor within
a church, it is more of anindication of the state of our
flesh in the state of our ownpersonal preferences than it is
the state of the church withinour city.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Okay.
And then the third one, theones who are disconnected from a
local body because they'regoing from place to place to
place, so they're doing a lot ofchurch activity but they're not
planted anywhere.
What would you say to thosefolks?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah, Trying to season my words with salt like
you did, I would say you're notconnected to a body.
You may be saved, you may beborn again, but you are not
connected to his body.
So you are in.
You're very susceptible, you'rein a dangerous position because
(17:47):
time and again we've seen wherethat way of living leads to
either plateauing in your walkwith Jesus and just kind of
leveling out and not progressingand maturing, or experiencing
some sort of crisis, whetherit's an attack from the enemy or
just life, and it just throwsyou off the rails.
(18:07):
You don't have God's peoplearound you to help you through
that crisis, you know.
So you're very susceptible.
Like we said on Sunday, thelion is looking for that one
zebra who's isolated out on thefringes of the pack, not the
ones who are connected in thevery center.
The enemy is prowling aroundlike a lion looking for someone
(18:29):
to devour, and the easy pickings, the low hanging fruit, are the
ones who are disconnected fromthe body.
I would also ask some seriousquestions of why?
Why are you not giving yourselfover to the hard work of
relationship?
Why are you satisfying yourcraving for fellowship, but
(18:56):
doing it in a surface level, byjust grazing and attending as
opposing to committing yourselfto something and going deep,
like where actual relationshiphappens.
My question would be why Is ita wound that you've suffered in
the past?
Let's talk to that.
Let's ask Jesus to heal that.
Is it insecurity, a fear ofbeing vulnerable?
(19:19):
Is it just personal preference?
Like maybe you just prefer tobe alone?
Like all of those things arereal.
But like, let's talk throughthat.
Let's ask Jesus to come in andheal those places so that you
can be connected to his body.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I think oftentimes it's a reflection of, I think
that the second two, both theones who can't find a place that
they just like enough to landand to plant themselves, and
then to the ones who go to awhole bunch of different places
but aren't really plantedanywhere.
The common thing theresomething common is that it's a
(20:04):
reflection of, like church,consumerism, which is I'm coming
to receive to take, to take, totake, to take, and it's like I
want to go from encounter toencounter, to encounter, to
encounter.
And those encounters with Jesus,as beautiful as they are, they
(20:28):
don't take root into your lifeuntil you have the friction of
community and even thetenderness that it produces in
your heart for those seeds,those encounter seeds to sink
down deep, that's in community.
It's the constant tilling overof the soil in your heart.
(20:49):
You know those encounter.
Seeds will produce fruit whenthe soil is tender.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
within community, yeah, so I think we see from
Paul's letter specifically tothe Ephesians and the consistent
teaching of scripture.
The church, the family of God,is the place where we become
conformed to the image of Jesus.
Where we are, you know, we'reled, we're taught, we're
(21:18):
prophesied over, we'reencouraged, we're edified, we're
built up, we're counseled,we're shown the mysteries of
scripture.
Where we experience and weshare the spirit with one
another, like we're goingthrough the process of becoming
like Jesus, his way, which iswith his people.
(21:38):
I believe that Jesus sees thatand he recognizes he can trust
heavenly things to that companyof people.
It's not that the isolatedindividual isn't gifted, isn't
anointed for ministry, but Ihave to believe that this
individual is setting themselvesup for a possibility of injury
(22:02):
to themselves and to others ifthey continue to walk isolated
and disconnected from thisfamily that is conforming itself
to the image of Jesus Like.
My question would be to theisolated individual okay, what
about your blind spots?
What about your weaknesses thatyou may or may not know about
(22:23):
yourself?
How are you walking outhumility, forgiveness, meekness,
service, in a disconnected wayfrom the body, like?
What does that look like?
And if you're not walking inthose things, what makes you
think that you can handle theweight of the anointing that you
(22:45):
carry Like we've seen endlessstories of individuals with very
heavy anointings who end upgetting crushed under the weight
of this gifting because they'renot connected to a body,
they're not accountable.
That's a whole other topic foranother day.
So I believe that God'sauthority is entrusted to his
(23:09):
church because it's within thechurch that God's people are
growing up into a measure offullness that can carry that
authority.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Yeah, I guess my heart, even in having this
conversation and even if there'sjust one person that hears it
and it shifts their mindsetabout the value and the beauty
of the local church, it's worthit.
The heart of God is for hislocal church.
(23:45):
He loves her and he wants togive himself to her man.
You know what's amazing.
I'm sorry this doesn't have tobe no man, whatever.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
This is amazing.
Let her meet, let her cook, letthe dog hunt.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Are you talking about him?
No, oh, you know what's amazingto me?
I'm sitting here looking atwhat Paul says in Ephesians 3,
when he says To me, though I'mthe very least of all saints,
this grace was given to preachto the Gentiles the unsearchable
(24:23):
riches of Christ and to bringlight for everyone.
What is the plan of the mysteryhidden for all ages in God?
Who created all things Like?
What is this mystery, paul?
I want to see, so that, throughthe church, the manifold wisdom
of God might be made known tothe rulers and authorities in
(24:45):
heavenly places.
It is the mandate on the churchto make the wisdom of God known
to the rulers and theauthorities in heavenly places,
in heavenly places.
(25:11):
So it's no odd thing that Paullays this out and goes straight
into a prayer for the body to berooted and grounded in love,
like love, has to be thegovernor for the body to fit and
hold it together so that it isequipped to carry the wisdom of
God and be a testimony to thepowers and principalities of the
air.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So good.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
I love apostles.
I love that they tell you whatyou need to know and then they
pray it out in heavenly places,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
I wrote a couple things down from just different
sources that I've read over theyears.
I want to read some of this.
Some of it's my own thoughts,but the majority of it is
influenced by others.
God-given authority is given tothe God-established church.
That was my own.
Whoa Read it again for us usgod-given authority is given to
(26:06):
the god I deserve that god-givenauthority is given to the
god-established church, watchmanknee.
He says this god's riches todayare among the church.
The lord Lord's word upon thisrock I'll build my church is
very clear.
The result is the gates ofHades shall not prevail against
(26:28):
it.
This promise is for the church,not for individuals.
Many times it's very difficultfor individuals to resist the
enemy, but as soon as the churchappears, satan is defeated.
So good yeah.
Watchman Nee says this.
We can't assume that justbecause 1,000 people gather
together on Sunday that they'rethe church.
(26:48):
Praise God that 1,000 peoplecan be the church, but 1,000
people may still be 1,000individuals.
His point is are those 1,000people connected in a
relationship sharing the spiritwith one another, or are they
just simply attending a building, like what separates them from,
I don't know, a country club?
(27:09):
Okay, this is one by a brothernamed Scott Jathani.
I'm not sure if I'm pronouncinghis name right, but he wrote a
book what If Jesus Was SeriousAbout the Church?
Highly recommend the book.
Super easy to read, reallysimple.
Even has illustrations likedrawings and illustrations.
Really cool what it's calledwhat if Jesus was serious about
the church?
He says this long beforecelebrity pastors smoke machines
(27:32):
or four-year coffee bars.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Four-year.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Four-year coffee bars .
The church was simply a family.
In the beginning, the churchwas a fellowship of men and
women centered on the livingChrist.
Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy.
Then the church moved to Rome,where it became an institution.
Next it moved to Europe, whereit became a culture, and finally
(27:57):
it moved to America, where itbecame an enterprise.
And when something becomes anenterprise like that, it becomes
consumer-based.
This is what I want, this iswhat I prefer.
Well, let's cater to what youwant, so let's make church what
it is that you want, and we losesight of the fact that church
(28:18):
belongs to Jesus.
What does he want in his house?
He wants to see his familycoming together.
Like any father, he wants hiskids to be together, growing,
maturing, expressing love forone another, not perfect, but
getting there by way of theSpirit, being shared with one
(28:41):
another.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I'm afraid I might cry.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
I feel there's been a couple of times when you're
reading in Revelation.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I'm going to read that again.
I quoted it, but let me justread it how it's written.
The end of Revelation 1,.
Jesus says the mystery of theseven stars which you saw in my
right hand and the seven goldenlampstands.
The seven stars are the angelsof the seven churches and the
seven lampstands which you saware the seven churches.
(29:11):
To the angel of the church ofEphesus, write these things,
says he who holds the sevenstars in his right hand and who
walks in the midst of the goldenlampstands.
And he goes on to say I knowyour work, I know your labor.
He walks amongst the lampstand.
That's where Jesus is going fora walk and that's where I want
(29:33):
to be.
So our encouragement would be ifyou are in a church and it's
not perfect, it's okay.
Be planted, serve, pray forgrace to be poured out, pray for
revival, pray for God to pourout his spirit, spirit out.
If you're in a church and youlove it, praise God, invite
(29:56):
others to come, not for thebuilding up of a ministry brand,
but if you found a healthyplace, man, invite people there.
If you are not connected to achurch, we would encourage you
to get connected to a church.
Begin the process of becomingfamily with people.
It takes time, so go ahead andbegin.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Learn how to forgive, learn how to cook meals for
people, learn how to watch otherpeople's kids, learn how to
walk in humility.
Did I say learn how to serve?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
No, did I say learn how to forgive.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
I think so.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Worth repeating yes.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And just believe.
Believe that this is God'sdesign for how he's going to
demonstrate his kingdom to ourgeneration.
It's through his people.
Okay, so finally, somerecommendations.
For folks who they can drinkfrom other wells, who have good
understanding of the church, Iwould say Bob Gladstone.
(31:02):
He's written a couple of books,phenomenal.
Look him up on YouTube eitherunder Bob Gladstone or Robert
Gladstone, watchman Nee,phenomenal book Normal Christian
Church Life.
He also has another one FurtherTalks on the Church Life.
Two phenomenal books.
Another one would be Art Katz alittle deeper, a little more
(31:24):
dense, thick, rich, but greatinsight on God's eternal plan
and purpose for the church.
And then maybe some podcasts,others that you can listen to
Our friends in Orlando, florida,Habitation Church.
They put up their messagesevery week.
They speak with a similar DNA,they carry the same heart for
(31:45):
God's church.
Habitation Church, the King'sPeople in Charlotte, north
Carolina same thing.
Cross Culture Church in Chicagosame thing.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
And what else.
I think we can put the links upto those in the podcast
description to some of thoseresources which would be good, I
would add, while this isn't youknow a human being alive today,
or a particular book, but Iwould add to that the book of
Ephesians.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
The living word.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Yes, yes, because we spent a lot of time in Ephesians
today and it's one of myfavorite books of the Bible,
because it reminds us who Christis, who we are to be in him,
how we are to be found in him,and then how we are to be
(32:46):
together as the body, as thechurch.
And it's beautifully written.
Paul's an amazing writer.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Yeah, so read through the book of Ephesians slowly,
prayerfully, prayerfully, in thespirit.
You know, get some goodcommentaries that flesh some of
these things out.
Yeah, amen, good, good point,all right, anything else?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
That's it.
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