June 27, 2024 • 30 mins
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Are your choices truly your own, or are they divinely orchestrated? Join Pastors Harry Behrens and Donnie Garrison in this compelling episode of The Takeaway as we explore the profound question: "Are my Choices an Illusion?" By examining powerful scriptural passages like Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Joshua 24:15, and Romans 10:9-10, we confront the apparent paradox between divine election and our ability to choose. We dig deep into the Apostle Paul's teachings on being chosen by God and our inherent inability to save ourselves due to our sinful nature. This conversation aims to provide clarity and strengthen your faith, emphasizing the coherence and comprehensibility of God's Word.
As we continue our theological journey, we delve into the doctrine of predestination and its relationship with human choice. Through key passages like Romans 8:22-25 and Ephesians 2, we discuss how God's mercy and grace are pivotal in salvation, despite our natural inclination to fulfill the passions of our flesh. Reflecting on the transformative power of the cross in 1 Corinthians 1:18 and the humility of Jesus in John 13:3-8, we underscore the necessity of divine intervention for spiritual growth.
Please visit www.chosenbydesign.net for more information on Pastor Harry’s new book, "Chosen By Design - God’s Purpose for Your Life."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
In this episode, Pastor Harry Behrens welcomes
Pastor Donnie Garrison toexplore the question Are my
Choices an Illusion?
Their discussion delves intoPastor Harry's previous
teachings in Ephesians, chapters1 and 2, focusing on the
concept of election.
In them, he highlights theApostle Paul's assertion that we
were chosen by God andemphasizes our inability to save
(00:30):
ourselves due to our state ofbeing dead in our sins, as
depicted in chapter 2.
The conversation naturallyturns to the topic of our
ability to choose, acknowledgingthe pervasive presence of
choices in our world and thescriptural references to the
concept of choice.
We hope you enjoy today's showas Pastor Harry and Donnie
attempt to clarify this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello, welcome again to this special edition of the
Takeaway.
I'm your host, pastor HarryBehrens, and with me today is
Pastor Donnie Garrison.
How are you doing today,brother?
I am doing well.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Absolutely Before we begin, Ijust want to give a quick
reminder to our listeners tosend us your questions by using
the Text Us link provided in thedescription of each episode, as
(01:22):
they help us create contentthat is important and meaningful
to you, so please keep thosequestions and comments coming in
.
So now, as we begin, what is itabout this topic of election,
you think stirs people up?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, one of the arguments that arises naturally
when I discuss this topic withpeople is the ability to choose
right.
We live in a world where peopleare making choices all the time
, and even the scriptures itdoes depict choice, you know.
For instance, in Joshua 24, 15,it says and if it is evil in
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your eyes to serve the Lord,choose this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods yourfather served in the region
beyond the river or the gods ofthe Amorites in whose land you
dwell.
But as for me and my house, wewill serve the Lord Right.
So you hear choice there.
Or in Romans 10, 9 and 10,because if you confess with your
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mouth that Jesus is Lord andbelieve in your heart that God
raised him from the dead, youwill be saved.
For with the heart one believesand is justified, and with the
mouth one confesses and is saved.
I believe many people find itdifficult to reconcile these
differences and fully trust theBible.
For instance, if the concept ofelection as depicted in the
passages as Ephesians 1, 1 Peter1, or Romans 9, verse 11, is
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true, does that imply that ourchoices are merely an illusion?
If so, how does the idea ofelection coexist with our
freedom to choose?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, those are really good questions that
deserve thoughtful answers sothat we can have confidence in
the Word of God.
You know, when we have doubtsor when doubts linger due to
unanswered questions, our faithcan weaken and some may even
consider leaving the faith.
That's why we created thispodcast to address questions
like this and equip believers todo the good works that God has
(03:16):
prepared for them.
So let's start by looking atsome scriptures that clearly
speak of election, for instance,ephesians 1, verse 4.
That clearly speak of election,for instance Ephesians, chapter
1, verse 4.
Even as he chose us in himbefore the foundation of the
world, that we should be holyand blameless before him In love
, he predestined us for adoptionto himself as sons through
Jesus Christ, according to thepurpose of his will, to the
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praise of his glorious gracewith which he has blessed us in
the beloved.
And 1.
Peter 1.1,.
Peter, an apostle of JesusChrist to those who are elect.
Colossians 3.12,.
So, as those who have beenchosen of God.
And here's one of my favoritesfrom Jesus himself speaking to
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his disciples in John 15.16, youdid not choose me, but I chose
you.
Now, as we see in these verses,they make it abundantly clear
that election is spoken of inscripture.
Our issue today is how do weunderstand these verses against
ones that say we make choices,or that you know we need to make
a choice, like we see in Joshua24, 15, choose this day whom
(04:23):
you will serve, or John 1, 12,.
But to all who did receive him,who believed in his name, he
gave the right to becomechildren of God.
You know, I want to say, beforewe move on, that there are many
people on both sides of thefence and some sitting on it.
You know some will defend freewill until they're blue in the
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face, as well as people whobelieve in election.
Then you have the ones in themiddle who see both arguments
and can't decide.
You know how they work, so theybelieve both and say we can't
know.
The problem I have with this isthat it limits God's ability to
reveal the truth.
Jesus said I am the way, thetruth and the life, in John 14,
6.
In 1 Corinthians 14, 33,.
(05:06):
For God is not a God ofconfusion but of peace.
So how can that be?
If we're confused, is God notable to teach us the truth?
Some will say we're not able to.
You know are capable ofunderstanding God's ways,
quoting Isaiah 55, 8,.
For my thoughts are not yourthoughts, neither are your ways.
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My ways, saith the Lord.
Now, I would agree with that inthat we can't figure out God on
our own ability or our ownintellect.
However, this doesn't limitGod's ability to reveal himself
to us and make himself known.
In fact, that's exactly what heis doing through his word.
The Bible is his instruction tous, written in such a way that
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we can comprehend his words.
This isn't some mystical bookwritten in a way that had to be
deciphered.
It is written clearly and withintelligence, as there is order
and consistency to it.
You know we have historical,scientific and prophetic
accuracy all throughout theBible.
It has led to morearchaeological discoveries than
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any other ancient text we knowof, and it has proven time and
time again to be accurate andtrue through prophecy as well as
scientifically.
There's no other book that haseven come close to the accuracy
of the Bible.
And when people say theybelieve in science, I say
Christians do as well, becausethe Bible has always been
scientifically accurate.
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It told us the world was round.
There were fountains in thedepths of the oceans of the
Bible, other than willingignorance, which means to be
purposely stupid.
2 Peter, 3.5.
For this they willingly areignorant of that.
By the word of God, the heavenswere of old and the earth
standing out of the water and inthe water, you know.
With that said, I believe Godcan and does reveal the truth to
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those who seek him out.
He is not hiding from us, as hedesires for us to know him
fully.
Our part is to seek him.
So this leads us back to thequestion is that our choice or
is he drawing us?
Let's look at John, chapter 1,verses 9 to 13 again.
The true light, which giveslight to everyone, was coming
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into the world.
He was in the world and theworld was made through him.
Yet the world did not know him.
He came to his own and his ownpeople did not receive him.
But to all who did receive him,who believed in his name, he
gave the right to becomechildren of God, who were born
not of blood.
Now, when we first look at this, it seems to imply choice.
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But believing, or even the wordreceived him in verse 12, does
not mean choose.
You know.
The answer is followed up in thevery next verse.
How did they come to believe?
Well, verse 13 says they wereborn not of flesh and blood but
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of God.
When Jesus told Nicodemus, forinstance, that he must be born
again, he described spiritualbirth as an example of the
fleshly birth.
He said the wind blows and noone knows where it came from or
goes.
Birth was not a choice.
It was a happening and theevidence that it took place is
the sound of a baby crying orpraise pursuing from the mouth
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of a man who once cursed God.
That's proof that the Spirit ofGod came upon him and he didn't
choose that.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, what about when we look at 2 Peter, 3, 9, where
it says the Lord is not slow tofulfill his promise, as some
count slowness, but is patienttoward you, not wishing that any
should perish, but that allshould reach repentance.
Doesn't this imply that Godwants all men to be saved and
that they have a choice?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Well, the idea here is not that God is waiting for
us to make a choice.
When it says he wishes, or,better translated, he desires,
it doesn't indicate he gave thechoice to us.
It just shows his desire or hisheart for us.
And in no way is he not incontrol.
You know, can God not save all?
If he desires?
Of course he can.
(09:22):
The question is then, whydoesn't he so?
Let's look at Romans, chapter 9, verses 10 to 13.
And not only so, but also whenRebecca had conceived children
by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born
and had done nothing, eithergood or bad, in order that God's
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purpose of election mightcontinue, not because of works,
but because of him who calls.
She was told, the older willserve the younger, as it is
written Jacob I loved, but EsauI hated.
In Romans 9, 17 to 18,.
For the scripture says toPharaoh for this very purpose I
have raised you up, that I mightshow my power in you and that
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my name might be proclaimed inall the earth.
So then, he has mercy onwhomever he wills and he hardens
whomever he wills.
God's desire is to show hispower and mercy, but to whom is
he showing it to Romans 9, 22-24, continue on.
What if God, desiring to showhis wrath and to make known his
(10:26):
power, has endured with muchpatience vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction inorder to make known the riches
of his glory, for vessels ofmercy which he has prepared
beforehand for glory, even us,whom he has called, not from the
Jews only, but also from theGentiles?
You know, it's for the elect'ssake that he pours his wrath out
(10:48):
on vessels of dishonor or theunsaved, so that we, the elect,
may know his great mercy.
You know.
Back to Peter, he isn'tcontradicting himself here when
he says God desires all to besaved.
From what he says in 1 Peter 1,for instance, which is that we
are elect, he is reaffirmingGod's heart for the elect, that
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all the elect will be saved.
So by this, god's desire anddecree are intact.
When people read that verse andsee all, they immediately think
it refers to all people.
But keeping it in context thatPeter is talking to the elect
and has already establishedelection, we can know that all
means all the elect.
So God's patience is in waitingfor the fullness of time to be
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completed so that all whom hehas chosen from before time
would be saved.
You know Ephesians, chapter 1,verses 7 to 10.
In him we have redemptionthrough his blood, the
forgiveness of our trespasses,according to the riches of his
grace which he lavished upon usin all wisdom and insight,
making known to us the mysteryof his will, according to his
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purpose, which he set forth inChrist as a plan for the
fullness of time to unite allthings in him, things in heaven
and things on earth.
You know Paul's making it clearin Ephesians 1 that God has
chosen those whom he would savethroughout time and that, you
know, we're just waiting for thefullness of that time to be
completed, so that you know allof whom God has chosen will be
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saved.
You know that's the all we'retalking about here.
You know it's our suffering inthis world, or I should say, you
know our suffering in thisworld is not for our punishment,
but it's for God's steadfastpatience and waiting for the
fullness of time to play out,you know, so that all whom he
has predestined for adoptionwill be completed.
(12:39):
You know we have to recognizethat and if God, you know, were
to bring our suffering to an endnow, those whom he has chosen
would not be saved, but that,all you know, all the chosen are
saved, that God has beforehandchosen.
We are suffering, that's us,the ones who have already been
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chosen, the ones that havealready been awakened.
You know, we're continuing tosuffer.
Here it is, waiting for thefullness of time to be completed
, when all things will be made.
New Romans 8, 22-25.
(13:25):
Here we are.
We're waiting eagerly foradoption as sons, the redemption
of our bodies, for in this hopewe were saved.
Now, hope that is seen is nothope for who hopes for what he
sees.
But if we hope for what we donot see, we wait for it with
patience.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So what you are saying is that God desires all
the elect to be saved and that,to show his mercy, he has not
saved all.
Does this indicate that noteveryone has a choice to accept
Jesus?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
No, no, no, absolutely not so.
God has indeed given all ofmankind the choice to choose him
.
You know John 3, 16, for God soloved the world that he gave
his only son that whoeverbelieves in him should not
perish but have eternal life.
You know, I don't agree withthat at all.
However, I believe scripturewhen it says we all choose to
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live for the passions of ourflesh.
You know, that was our choice.
You know Ephesians 2,.
What is it?
Verses 2 and 3, and you are.
Verses 1 to 3, I'm sorry.
And you were dead in thetrespasses and sins and in which
you once walked, following thecourse of this world, following
the prince of the power of theair, the spirit that is now at
work in the sons of disobedienceListen to this among whom we
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all once lived in the passionsof our flesh, carrying out the
desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of
wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Don't you agree that God wouldbe just in condemning all of us?
Based on this scripture, ofcourse, so we can't argue with
that.
But God, by his great mercy,grace and love, saved some whom
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he chose before the foundationsof the world, eph.
Know Ephesians 2, verses 4 to10, the very next verses.
But God, being rich in mercybecause of the great love with
which he loved us even when wewere dead in our trespasses,
made us alive together withChrist.
By grace, you have been savedand raised us up with him and
(15:26):
seated us with him in theheavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the coming ages hemight show the immeasurable
riches of his grace in kindnesstoward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have beensaved through faith.
Now, here, listen to this, andthis is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
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may boast, for we are hisworkmanship, created in Christ
Jesus for good works.
You know, paul makes itabundantly clear that the only
reason anyone is saved isbecause God chose them.
He then keeps them and protectsthem, you know, protects their
salvation in himself by givingthem his spirit as a guarantee.
(16:11):
They did not earn this orchoose it.
It was given by his grace.
That no one can boast.
You know, at the end of the day, god calls us to choose right.
All of us are called to choose.
This is to show ourdisobedience.
Now check this out.
You know it's to show that wedid choose and that we chose
disobedience.
(16:31):
That's what Ephesians 2 istalking about.
We made that choice.
That was Paul's argument aboutthe law in Romans 7.7.
What then?
Shall we say?
That the law is sin?
By no means.
Yet if it had not been for thelaw, I would not have known sin,
for I would not have known whatit is to covet.
If the law had said you shallnot covet.
The law revealed our sins, andGod's calling for people to
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choose it reveals ourdisobedience.
That's what makes election sopowerful.
We were all dead to sin, unableto save ourselves, and God
chose, from before thefoundation of the world, those
whom he would show his greatpower and mercy, so that we
would be partakers of his divinenature, would show his great
power and mercy, so that wewould be partakers of his divine
nature.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
So, to bring this all together, what you are saying
is that we do have a choice, butthat we already made that
choice and it was to fulfill thepassions of our flesh.
Yeah, that's exactly it, andthat God gave us the choice,
like he gave the law, to show usour disobedience, so that when
he chose us, we would know wewere disobedient.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Exactly.
You know, god gave us thechoice to reveal our
disobedience, that we wouldunderstand our previous position
, that we would know we werehelpless without him.
That's what Paul was saying inEphesians, chapters 1 and 2.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So back to the argument of which position is
right when it comes to choice,election or both you know well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think it's clear that it's both, and that we
chose the passions of our fleshand god chose us for adoption in
himself.
You know, apart from god, wewill always choose to serve the
flesh, and without him we coulddo nothing.
You know, 15, 4-6, abide in meand I in you, as the branch
cannot bear fruit by itselfunless it abides in the vine.
(18:14):
Neither can you, unless youabide in me.
I am in the vine, you are thebranches.
Whoever abides in me and I inhim, he it is that bears much
fruit.
For apart from me, you can donothing.
If anyone does not abide in me,he is thrown away like a branch
and withers and the branchesare gathered, thrown into the
fire and burned.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
So, again, what you are saying is that people will
always choose their owndestruction and without God's
perfect election we would all belost, correct?
So when believers fall in sinafter they are saved, is that a
result of God allowing us tomake a choice, to show us that
without him we will always sin,absolutely so.
(18:58):
It's like when a father teacheshis child to ride a bike.
I would say it's sort of likehe pushes him off, knowing he
will fall, because it's part ofthe process of learning to ride.
If his father never lets him go, he would never leave us nor
forsake us.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know we could trust in that and know that when
we fall, it's not because Godcaused it.
He allowed it to teach us ofhis great mercy and power.
You know, when he picks us up,we praise him and he gets the
glory.
At the end of the day, it's allabout God's glory and us
learning to submit to his willso that we may enter into the
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joy of the Lord.
Romans 11, 30 to 32.
For just as you were at onetime disobedient to God but now
have received mercy because oftheir disobedience, so they too
have now been disobedient inorder that, by the mercy shown
to you, they also may nowreceive mercy.
For God has consigned all todisobedience.
That means given over,consigned means given over, for
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God has given over all todisobedience that he may have
mercy on all.
You know the fall of man ispart of God's master plan to
show all of his attributes andfor us to take part in his
divine nature.
He is a giving God not lackinganything, as though he needs
something from us.
You know we were created sothat he could share the overflow
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of his immense, eternal,infinite glory.
He is a giving God and desiresto give all of himself to us.
That's what he's created us forand that's what he's chosen us
for.
You know, when we say thatelection isn't fair, it leaves
some out as if they didn't havea choice, and that's a lie.
We all had the choice and weall made the wrong choice.
(20:48):
If God so desires to choosesome and not others, he has
every right to do that, as wesaw in Romans, chapter 9.
As for the ones he didn'tchoose, you know they don't care
because they are happy withtheir choice.
You know, if it were possiblefor them to choose God, they're
welcome to do that and be saved.
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For them to choose God, they'rewelcome to do that and be saved
.
You know, the issues we've seenis that we know no one will
ever choose God, god withoutbeing drawn by God.
John 6, 4,.
No one could come to me unlessthe Father who sent me draws him
and I will raise him up on thelast day.
You know, one last example I'dlike to give to paint a clear
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picture in case there's stillsome uncertainty, and this is
only meant to give a picture ofour choices and nothing else.
You know, imagine if you wereat the beach on a scorching hot
day and everything.
Everyone is running into theocean water to cool down.
It is so hot out that thethought of getting out of the
water seems ridiculous.
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However, you don't realize thatthere are sharks all around
picking individuals off one byone.
No one seems to notice becauseso many people are in the water.
This represents all the peoplein the world living for their
passions, going about theirbusiness without giving any
thought to their surroundings orthe individuals around them.
Then, all of a sudden, you starthearing the faint sound of a
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whistle in the distance.
You know, at first you don'tgive it any thought, but then
you see a guy on the beachwaving his arms frantically.
Maybe your first thought is toask the person next to you
what's his deal, just to get areply he's just a crazy guy.
I see him all the time runningup and down the beach trying to
get people out of the water.
He's always sweating andlooking exhausted and never
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comes in to cool down.
So we just ignore him.
So then you go about swimming,disregarding the crazy guy, and
this represents the gospel beingproclaimed to a lost world,
being devoured by the devil,while they ignore all the
warnings.
So while you go about swimmingand enjoying your day, you start
to notice more and more peopledisappearing under the water,
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sometimes people close to youand some far away.
You do your best to ignore it,thinking it had never happened
to me.
Then, when you're leastexpecting it, the fins start
surrounding you and you startsplashing and making noises to
try and scare off the sharks.
But nothing you do works.
When all of a sudden, you'repulled into a boat by a
lifeguard, he gets you in andsays I've saved you from
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destruction.
Look around, there are sharkseverywhere.
From the boat's vantage pointyou could see the sharks, the
blood in the water and peopleswimming with no regard to
what's going on.
So your first instinct is tostart screaming to those in the
water to warn them of the danger.
And no matter how hard you try,they all seem to ignore you.
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Until you notice someone rightalong the boat, and the guy who
pulled you out pulls him outalso.
So you turn to him and say howcan I help?
Then he looks you dead in theeyes and says you keep warning
them and I'll keep pulling themout of the water.
When I pull them in, you drythem off and tell them to do the
same thing.
Show them the danger I showedyou and, trust me, I will keep
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pulling them into safety.
That's what it looks like forthe church to proclaim the
gospel to people who don't wantout of their sin.
Our job is to explain to themwhat happened once God pulled
them out of danger so they don'tjump back in.
He is our lifeguard and he isrescuing all those he sets his
eyes on.
While we keep screaming to themasses to come our way.
(24:21):
We're going to look crazy andout of place, but our
perspective is clear.
The world will only know whattheir experience is and never
comprehend our perspectiveunless they are pulled into the
boat, which is exactly what Goddoes.
So we thank the lifeguard forsaving us and telling us what to
do, while encouraging people toget in the boat.
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Once in, we do everything we canto care for and equip them till
the boat reaches land.
We are never fully equipped forthis task, right, but our
desire to save people comes fromrecognizing the danger that God
is the only one who can pullthem out.
So we pray and ask God to lookto the ones around us and pull
them to safety when he does beprepared to show them how he
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showed you.
We might not be a lifeguard,but we could definitely tell
people all about him whileasking him to save our friends.
People will always choose theircomfort and we must always stay
in the boat.
We are in this world sufferingin the heat while they are in
this world suffering in the heat, while they are swimming around
enjoying the day.
So don't be fooled by the coolocean water, because we are
being brought to safety by theone who saved us.
(25:28):
The reality is, you know thatwe don't know who God will save
and who he won't, and that's hisbusiness.
Our business is to proclaim.
That's his business.
Our business is to proclaim.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Well, that reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1.18,.
For the word of the cross isfoolishness to those who are
perishing, but to those who arebeing saved, it is the power of
God.
Now, before we go, I want togive a big thank you to all our
listeners for contributing suchthought-provoking questions like
this one.
Please keep sending them in sowe can continue producing shows
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like this.
We truly enjoy addressing yourconcerns and assisting you in
deepening your relationship withGod and, as we have heard today
, our choice was to run from Godand his choice was to chase
after us.
Without his help, we willalways return to our worldly
passions, like pigs returning tothe mire.
(26:23):
But, as Pastor Harry made clear, we have been chosen, cleaned
up and adopted into the familyof God by his great mercy that
we would live a life glorifyinghim and joyful for us, life
(26:44):
glorifying him and joyful for us.
Like John 13, three througheight, says Jesus, knowing that
the father had given all thingsinto his hand and that he had
come from God and was going backto God, he rose from supper, he
laid aside his outer garmentsand he took a towel and he tied
it around his waist.
Then he poured water into abasin and began to wash the
disciples' feet and to wipe themwith the towel that was wrapped
(27:06):
around him.
He came to Simon Peter, whosaid to him Lord, do you wash my
feet?
And Jesus answered him what Iam doing you do not understand
now, but afterward you willunderstand.
Peter said to him you shallnever wash my feet, and Jesus
(27:30):
answered him if I do not washyou, you have no share with me.
Let's pray, father.
We thank you for just thispodcast, god, and just for this
conversation and just allowingus to delve deeper into your
word.
We thank you so much, god, forjust opening up your treasury of
knowledge to us and your wisdomand showing us your great love
(27:53):
to us in that, while we were yetsinners, christ died for the
ungodly and that, although wemight think we have some sort of
free will and choice to acceptyou, your word makes it
perfectly clear that we alreadychose sin, we already chose
darkness, and you came by yourchoice and rescued us, and we
(28:17):
thank you for that today, god.
And we pray, lord, that youwould just allow others to hear
this and understand it, and letit pierce their hearts, that,
god, they might be able tounderstand how much that means
and how much you love them.
We thank you and we praise you,god, and ask God that you would
bless all that hear and allthat might hear as we go forth
(28:40):
and share this with people aswell, in Jesus' name, amen, amen
.
Well, we hope today's showhelped you take a step closer in
your relationship with Jesusand that you have a better
understanding for just how muchGod loves you.
Next week, pastor Harry willcontinue his series in Ephesians
as he looks at chapter 3, themystery of the church revealed.
(29:01):
From the beginning of creation,god's desire was to choose a
people for himself to proclaimhis greatness and glorify him.
As we will see, this task hasbeen given to the church not as
an obligation, but one thatflows from a love in our hearts
towards him, because he firstloved us.
(29:22):
Like 1 John, 4, 17 through 19says by this is love perfected
with us, so that we may haveconfidence for the day of
judgment, because, as he is, soare we in this world.
There is no fear in love, butperfect love casts out fear, for
(29:44):
fear has to do with torment,and whoever fears has been
perfected has not been perfectedin love.
We love because he first lovedus.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Thank you, donnie.
I appreciate you, man.
Now, before we go, I want toremind our listeners that we
would love to hear from them andthat they can send us a text
message from the descriptionpage of this episode.
So please, guys, let us knowwhat you thought, what you
thought about today's show, anddon't forget to keep the
questions coming.
God bless, and we'll see younext time on the Takeaway.
(30:15):
Thank you.
In this episode, Pastor Harry Behrens welcomes
Pastor Donnie Garrison toexplore the question Are my
Choices an Illusion?
Their discussion delves intoPastor Harry's previous
teachings in Ephesians, chapters1 and 2, focusing on the
concept of election.
In them, he highlights theApostle Paul's assertion that we
were chosen by God andemphasizes our inability to save
(00:30):
ourselves due to our state ofbeing dead in our sins, as
depicted in chapter 2.
The conversation naturallyturns to the topic of our
ability to choose, acknowledgingthe pervasive presence of
choices in our world and thescriptural references to the
concept of choice.
We hope you enjoy today's showas Pastor Harry and Donnie
attempt to clarify this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello, welcome again to this special edition of the
Takeaway.
I'm your host, pastor HarryBehrens, and with me today is
Pastor Donnie Garrison.
How are you doing today,brother?
I am doing well.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Absolutely Before we begin, Ijust want to give a quick
reminder to our listeners tosend us your questions by using
the Text Us link provided in thedescription of each episode, as
(01:22):
they help us create contentthat is important and meaningful
to you, so please keep thosequestions and comments coming in
.
So now, as we begin, what is itabout this topic of election,
you think stirs people up?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, one of the arguments that arises naturally
when I discuss this topic withpeople is the ability to choose
right.
We live in a world where peopleare making choices all the time
, and even the scriptures itdoes depict choice, you know.
For instance, in Joshua 24, 15,it says and if it is evil in
(01:58):
your eyes to serve the Lord,choose this day whom you will
serve, whether the gods yourfather served in the region
beyond the river or the gods ofthe Amorites in whose land you
dwell.
But as for me and my house, wewill serve the Lord Right.
So you hear choice there.
Or in Romans 10, 9 and 10,because if you confess with your
(02:19):
mouth that Jesus is Lord andbelieve in your heart that God
raised him from the dead, youwill be saved.
For with the heart one believesand is justified, and with the
mouth one confesses and is saved.
I believe many people find itdifficult to reconcile these
differences and fully trust theBible.
For instance, if the concept ofelection as depicted in the
passages as Ephesians 1, 1 Peter1, or Romans 9, verse 11, is
(02:42):
true, does that imply that ourchoices are merely an illusion?
If so, how does the idea ofelection coexist with our
freedom to choose?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, those are really good questions that
deserve thoughtful answers sothat we can have confidence in
the Word of God.
You know, when we have doubtsor when doubts linger due to
unanswered questions, our faithcan weaken and some may even
consider leaving the faith.
That's why we created thispodcast to address questions
like this and equip believers todo the good works that God has
(03:16):
prepared for them.
So let's start by looking atsome scriptures that clearly
speak of election, for instance,ephesians 1, verse 4.
That clearly speak of election,for instance Ephesians, chapter
1, verse 4.
Even as he chose us in himbefore the foundation of the
world, that we should be holyand blameless before him In love
, he predestined us for adoptionto himself as sons through
Jesus Christ, according to thepurpose of his will, to the
(03:38):
praise of his glorious gracewith which he has blessed us in
the beloved.
And 1.
Peter 1.1,.
Peter, an apostle of JesusChrist to those who are elect.
Colossians 3.12,.
So, as those who have beenchosen of God.
And here's one of my favoritesfrom Jesus himself speaking to
(03:59):
his disciples in John 15.16, youdid not choose me, but I chose
you.
Now, as we see in these verses,they make it abundantly clear
that election is spoken of inscripture.
Our issue today is how do weunderstand these verses against
ones that say we make choices,or that you know we need to make
a choice, like we see in Joshua24, 15, choose this day whom
(04:23):
you will serve, or John 1, 12,.
But to all who did receive him,who believed in his name, he
gave the right to becomechildren of God.
You know, I want to say, beforewe move on, that there are many
people on both sides of thefence and some sitting on it.
You know some will defend freewill until they're blue in the
(04:44):
face, as well as people whobelieve in election.
Then you have the ones in themiddle who see both arguments
and can't decide.
You know how they work, so theybelieve both and say we can't
know.
The problem I have with this isthat it limits God's ability to
reveal the truth.
Jesus said I am the way, thetruth and the life, in John 14,
6.
In 1 Corinthians 14, 33,.
(05:06):
For God is not a God ofconfusion but of peace.
So how can that be?
If we're confused, is God notable to teach us the truth?
Some will say we're not able to.
You know are capable ofunderstanding God's ways,
quoting Isaiah 55, 8,.
For my thoughts are not yourthoughts, neither are your ways.
(05:27):
My ways, saith the Lord.
Now, I would agree with that inthat we can't figure out God on
our own ability or our ownintellect.
However, this doesn't limitGod's ability to reveal himself
to us and make himself known.
In fact, that's exactly what heis doing through his word.
The Bible is his instruction tous, written in such a way that
(05:50):
we can comprehend his words.
This isn't some mystical bookwritten in a way that had to be
deciphered.
It is written clearly and withintelligence, as there is order
and consistency to it.
You know we have historical,scientific and prophetic
accuracy all throughout theBible.
It has led to morearchaeological discoveries than
(06:12):
any other ancient text we knowof, and it has proven time and
time again to be accurate andtrue through prophecy as well as
scientifically.
There's no other book that haseven come close to the accuracy
of the Bible.
And when people say theybelieve in science, I say
Christians do as well, becausethe Bible has always been
scientifically accurate.
(06:42):
It told us the world was round.
There were fountains in thedepths of the oceans of the
Bible, other than willingignorance, which means to be
purposely stupid.
2 Peter, 3.5.
For this they willingly areignorant of that.
By the word of God, the heavenswere of old and the earth
standing out of the water and inthe water, you know.
With that said, I believe Godcan and does reveal the truth to
(07:06):
those who seek him out.
He is not hiding from us, as hedesires for us to know him
fully.
Our part is to seek him.
So this leads us back to thequestion is that our choice or
is he drawing us?
Let's look at John, chapter 1,verses 9 to 13 again.
The true light, which giveslight to everyone, was coming
(07:26):
into the world.
He was in the world and theworld was made through him.
Yet the world did not know him.
He came to his own and his ownpeople did not receive him.
But to all who did receive him,who believed in his name, he
gave the right to becomechildren of God, who were born
not of blood.
Now, when we first look at this, it seems to imply choice.
(07:48):
But believing, or even the wordreceived him in verse 12, does
not mean choose.
You know.
The answer is followed up in thevery next verse.
How did they come to believe?
Well, verse 13 says they wereborn not of flesh and blood but
(08:14):
of God.
When Jesus told Nicodemus, forinstance, that he must be born
again, he described spiritualbirth as an example of the
fleshly birth.
He said the wind blows and noone knows where it came from or
goes.
Birth was not a choice.
It was a happening and theevidence that it took place is
the sound of a baby crying orpraise pursuing from the mouth
(08:34):
of a man who once cursed God.
That's proof that the Spirit ofGod came upon him and he didn't
choose that.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Well, what about when we look at 2 Peter, 3, 9, where
it says the Lord is not slow tofulfill his promise, as some
count slowness, but is patienttoward you, not wishing that any
should perish, but that allshould reach repentance.
Doesn't this imply that Godwants all men to be saved and
that they have a choice?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Well, the idea here is not that God is waiting for
us to make a choice.
When it says he wishes, or,better translated, he desires,
it doesn't indicate he gave thechoice to us.
It just shows his desire or hisheart for us.
And in no way is he not incontrol.
You know, can God not save all?
If he desires?
Of course he can.
(09:22):
The question is then, whydoesn't he so?
Let's look at Romans, chapter 9, verses 10 to 13.
And not only so, but also whenRebecca had conceived children
by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born
and had done nothing, eithergood or bad, in order that God's
(09:42):
purpose of election mightcontinue, not because of works,
but because of him who calls.
She was told, the older willserve the younger, as it is
written Jacob I loved, but EsauI hated.
In Romans 9, 17 to 18,.
For the scripture says toPharaoh for this very purpose I
have raised you up, that I mightshow my power in you and that
(10:03):
my name might be proclaimed inall the earth.
So then, he has mercy onwhomever he wills and he hardens
whomever he wills.
God's desire is to show hispower and mercy, but to whom is
he showing it to Romans 9, 22-24, continue on.
What if God, desiring to showhis wrath and to make known his
(10:26):
power, has endured with muchpatience vessels of wrath
prepared for destruction inorder to make known the riches
of his glory, for vessels ofmercy which he has prepared
beforehand for glory, even us,whom he has called, not from the
Jews only, but also from theGentiles?
You know, it's for the elect'ssake that he pours his wrath out
(10:48):
on vessels of dishonor or theunsaved, so that we, the elect,
may know his great mercy.
You know.
Back to Peter, he isn'tcontradicting himself here when
he says God desires all to besaved.
From what he says in 1 Peter 1,for instance, which is that we
are elect, he is reaffirmingGod's heart for the elect, that
(11:10):
all the elect will be saved.
So by this, god's desire anddecree are intact.
When people read that verse andsee all, they immediately think
it refers to all people.
But keeping it in context thatPeter is talking to the elect
and has already establishedelection, we can know that all
means all the elect.
So God's patience is in waitingfor the fullness of time to be
(11:34):
completed so that all whom hehas chosen from before time
would be saved.
You know Ephesians, chapter 1,verses 7 to 10.
In him we have redemptionthrough his blood, the
forgiveness of our trespasses,according to the riches of his
grace which he lavished upon usin all wisdom and insight,
making known to us the mysteryof his will, according to his
(11:55):
purpose, which he set forth inChrist as a plan for the
fullness of time to unite allthings in him, things in heaven
and things on earth.
You know Paul's making it clearin Ephesians 1 that God has
chosen those whom he would savethroughout time and that, you
know, we're just waiting for thefullness of that time to be
completed, so that you know allof whom God has chosen will be
(12:18):
saved.
You know that's the all we'retalking about here.
You know it's our suffering inthis world, or I should say, you
know our suffering in thisworld is not for our punishment,
but it's for God's steadfastpatience and waiting for the
fullness of time to play out,you know, so that all whom he
has predestined for adoptionwill be completed.
(12:39):
You know we have to recognizethat and if God, you know, were
to bring our suffering to an endnow, those whom he has chosen
would not be saved, but that,all you know, all the chosen are
saved, that God has beforehandchosen.
We are suffering, that's us,the ones who have already been
(12:59):
chosen, the ones that havealready been awakened.
You know, we're continuing tosuffer.
Here it is, waiting for thefullness of time to be completed
, when all things will be made.
New Romans 8, 22-25.
(13:25):
Here we are.
We're waiting eagerly foradoption as sons, the redemption
of our bodies, for in this hopewe were saved.
Now, hope that is seen is nothope for who hopes for what he
sees.
But if we hope for what we donot see, we wait for it with
patience.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So what you are saying is that God desires all
the elect to be saved and that,to show his mercy, he has not
saved all.
Does this indicate that noteveryone has a choice to accept
Jesus?
Speaker 2 (13:56):
No, no, no, absolutely not so.
God has indeed given all ofmankind the choice to choose him
.
You know John 3, 16, for God soloved the world that he gave
his only son that whoeverbelieves in him should not
perish but have eternal life.
You know, I don't agree withthat at all.
However, I believe scripturewhen it says we all choose to
(14:18):
live for the passions of ourflesh.
You know, that was our choice.
You know Ephesians 2,.
What is it?
Verses 2 and 3, and you are.
Verses 1 to 3, I'm sorry.
And you were dead in thetrespasses and sins and in which
you once walked, following thecourse of this world, following
the prince of the power of theair, the spirit that is now at
work in the sons of disobedienceListen to this among whom we
(14:42):
all once lived in the passionsof our flesh, carrying out the
desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of
wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Don't you agree that God wouldbe just in condemning all of us?
Based on this scripture, ofcourse, so we can't argue with
that.
But God, by his great mercy,grace and love, saved some whom
(15:06):
he chose before the foundationsof the world, eph.
Know Ephesians 2, verses 4 to10, the very next verses.
But God, being rich in mercybecause of the great love with
which he loved us even when wewere dead in our trespasses,
made us alive together withChrist.
By grace, you have been savedand raised us up with him and
(15:26):
seated us with him in theheavenly places in Christ Jesus,
so that in the coming ages hemight show the immeasurable
riches of his grace in kindnesstoward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have beensaved through faith.
Now, here, listen to this, andthis is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God, not aresult of works, so that no one
(15:48):
may boast, for we are hisworkmanship, created in Christ
Jesus for good works.
You know, paul makes itabundantly clear that the only
reason anyone is saved isbecause God chose them.
He then keeps them and protectsthem, you know, protects their
salvation in himself by givingthem his spirit as a guarantee.
(16:11):
They did not earn this orchoose it.
It was given by his grace.
That no one can boast.
You know, at the end of the day, god calls us to choose right.
All of us are called to choose.
This is to show ourdisobedience.
Now check this out.
You know it's to show that wedid choose and that we chose
disobedience.
(16:31):
That's what Ephesians 2 istalking about.
We made that choice.
That was Paul's argument aboutthe law in Romans 7.7.
What then?
Shall we say?
That the law is sin?
By no means.
Yet if it had not been for thelaw, I would not have known sin,
for I would not have known whatit is to covet.
If the law had said you shallnot covet.
The law revealed our sins, andGod's calling for people to
(16:53):
choose it reveals ourdisobedience.
That's what makes election sopowerful.
We were all dead to sin, unableto save ourselves, and God
chose, from before thefoundation of the world, those
whom he would show his greatpower and mercy, so that we
would be partakers of his divinenature, would show his great
power and mercy, so that wewould be partakers of his divine
nature.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
So, to bring this all together, what you are saying
is that we do have a choice, butthat we already made that
choice and it was to fulfill thepassions of our flesh.
Yeah, that's exactly it, andthat God gave us the choice,
like he gave the law, to show usour disobedience, so that when
he chose us, we would know wewere disobedient.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Exactly.
You know, god gave us thechoice to reveal our
disobedience, that we wouldunderstand our previous position
, that we would know we werehelpless without him.
That's what Paul was saying inEphesians, chapters 1 and 2.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
So back to the argument of which position is
right when it comes to choice,election or both you know well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
I think it's clear that it's both, and that we
chose the passions of our fleshand god chose us for adoption in
himself.
You know, apart from god, wewill always choose to serve the
flesh, and without him we coulddo nothing.
You know, 15, 4-6, abide in meand I in you, as the branch
cannot bear fruit by itselfunless it abides in the vine.
(18:14):
Neither can you, unless youabide in me.
I am in the vine, you are thebranches.
Whoever abides in me and I inhim, he it is that bears much
fruit.
For apart from me, you can donothing.
If anyone does not abide in me,he is thrown away like a branch
and withers and the branchesare gathered, thrown into the
fire and burned.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
So, again, what you are saying is that people will
always choose their owndestruction and without God's
perfect election we would all belost, correct?
So when believers fall in sinafter they are saved, is that a
result of God allowing us tomake a choice, to show us that
without him we will always sin,absolutely so.
(18:58):
It's like when a father teacheshis child to ride a bike.
I would say it's sort of likehe pushes him off, knowing he
will fall, because it's part ofthe process of learning to ride.
If his father never lets him go, he would never leave us nor
forsake us.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know we could trust in that and know that when
we fall, it's not because Godcaused it.
He allowed it to teach us ofhis great mercy and power.
You know, when he picks us up,we praise him and he gets the
glory.
At the end of the day, it's allabout God's glory and us
learning to submit to his willso that we may enter into the
(19:43):
joy of the Lord.
Romans 11, 30 to 32.
For just as you were at onetime disobedient to God but now
have received mercy because oftheir disobedience, so they too
have now been disobedient inorder that, by the mercy shown
to you, they also may nowreceive mercy.
For God has consigned all todisobedience.
That means given over,consigned means given over, for
(20:05):
God has given over all todisobedience that he may have
mercy on all.
You know the fall of man ispart of God's master plan to
show all of his attributes andfor us to take part in his
divine nature.
He is a giving God not lackinganything, as though he needs
something from us.
You know we were created sothat he could share the overflow
(20:26):
of his immense, eternal,infinite glory.
He is a giving God and desiresto give all of himself to us.
That's what he's created us forand that's what he's chosen us
for.
You know, when we say thatelection isn't fair, it leaves
some out as if they didn't havea choice, and that's a lie.
We all had the choice and weall made the wrong choice.
(20:48):
If God so desires to choosesome and not others, he has
every right to do that, as wesaw in Romans, chapter 9.
As for the ones he didn'tchoose, you know they don't care
because they are happy withtheir choice.
You know, if it were possiblefor them to choose God, they're
welcome to do that and be saved.
(21:09):
For them to choose God, they'rewelcome to do that and be saved
.
You know, the issues we've seenis that we know no one will
ever choose God, god withoutbeing drawn by God.
John 6, 4,.
No one could come to me unlessthe Father who sent me draws him
and I will raise him up on thelast day.
You know, one last example I'dlike to give to paint a clear
(21:30):
picture in case there's stillsome uncertainty, and this is
only meant to give a picture ofour choices and nothing else.
You know, imagine if you wereat the beach on a scorching hot
day and everything.
Everyone is running into theocean water to cool down.
It is so hot out that thethought of getting out of the
water seems ridiculous.
(21:50):
However, you don't realize thatthere are sharks all around
picking individuals off one byone.
No one seems to notice becauseso many people are in the water.
This represents all the peoplein the world living for their
passions, going about theirbusiness without giving any
thought to their surroundings orthe individuals around them.
Then, all of a sudden, you starthearing the faint sound of a
(22:12):
whistle in the distance.
You know, at first you don'tgive it any thought, but then
you see a guy on the beachwaving his arms frantically.
Maybe your first thought is toask the person next to you
what's his deal, just to get areply he's just a crazy guy.
I see him all the time runningup and down the beach trying to
get people out of the water.
He's always sweating andlooking exhausted and never
(22:32):
comes in to cool down.
So we just ignore him.
So then you go about swimming,disregarding the crazy guy, and
this represents the gospel beingproclaimed to a lost world,
being devoured by the devil,while they ignore all the
warnings.
So while you go about swimmingand enjoying your day, you start
to notice more and more peopledisappearing under the water,
(22:53):
sometimes people close to youand some far away.
You do your best to ignore it,thinking it had never happened
to me.
Then, when you're leastexpecting it, the fins start
surrounding you and you startsplashing and making noises to
try and scare off the sharks.
But nothing you do works.
When all of a sudden, you'repulled into a boat by a
lifeguard, he gets you in andsays I've saved you from
(23:15):
destruction.
Look around, there are sharkseverywhere.
From the boat's vantage pointyou could see the sharks, the
blood in the water and peopleswimming with no regard to
what's going on.
So your first instinct is tostart screaming to those in the
water to warn them of the danger.
And no matter how hard you try,they all seem to ignore you.
(23:36):
Until you notice someone rightalong the boat, and the guy who
pulled you out pulls him outalso.
So you turn to him and say howcan I help?
Then he looks you dead in theeyes and says you keep warning
them and I'll keep pulling themout of the water.
When I pull them in, you drythem off and tell them to do the
same thing.
Show them the danger I showedyou and, trust me, I will keep
(23:59):
pulling them into safety.
That's what it looks like forthe church to proclaim the
gospel to people who don't wantout of their sin.
Our job is to explain to themwhat happened once God pulled
them out of danger so they don'tjump back in.
He is our lifeguard and he isrescuing all those he sets his
eyes on.
While we keep screaming to themasses to come our way.
(24:21):
We're going to look crazy andout of place, but our
perspective is clear.
The world will only know whattheir experience is and never
comprehend our perspectiveunless they are pulled into the
boat, which is exactly what Goddoes.
So we thank the lifeguard forsaving us and telling us what to
do, while encouraging people toget in the boat.
(24:42):
Once in, we do everything we canto care for and equip them till
the boat reaches land.
We are never fully equipped forthis task, right, but our
desire to save people comes fromrecognizing the danger that God
is the only one who can pullthem out.
So we pray and ask God to lookto the ones around us and pull
them to safety when he does beprepared to show them how he
(25:06):
showed you.
We might not be a lifeguard,but we could definitely tell
people all about him whileasking him to save our friends.
People will always choose theircomfort and we must always stay
in the boat.
We are in this world sufferingin the heat while they are in
this world suffering in the heat, while they are swimming around
enjoying the day.
So don't be fooled by the coolocean water, because we are
being brought to safety by theone who saved us.
(25:28):
The reality is, you know thatwe don't know who God will save
and who he won't, and that's hisbusiness.
Our business is to proclaim.
That's his business.
Our business is to proclaim.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Well, that reminds me of 1 Corinthians 1.18,.
For the word of the cross isfoolishness to those who are
perishing, but to those who arebeing saved, it is the power of
God.
Now, before we go, I want togive a big thank you to all our
listeners for contributing suchthought-provoking questions like
this one.
Please keep sending them in sowe can continue producing shows
(26:02):
like this.
We truly enjoy addressing yourconcerns and assisting you in
deepening your relationship withGod and, as we have heard today
, our choice was to run from Godand his choice was to chase
after us.
Without his help, we willalways return to our worldly
passions, like pigs returning tothe mire.
(26:23):
But, as Pastor Harry made clear, we have been chosen, cleaned
up and adopted into the familyof God by his great mercy that
we would live a life glorifyinghim and joyful for us, life
(26:44):
glorifying him and joyful for us.
Like John 13, three througheight, says Jesus, knowing that
the father had given all thingsinto his hand and that he had
come from God and was going backto God, he rose from supper, he
laid aside his outer garmentsand he took a towel and he tied
it around his waist.
Then he poured water into abasin and began to wash the
disciples' feet and to wipe themwith the towel that was wrapped
(27:06):
around him.
He came to Simon Peter, whosaid to him Lord, do you wash my
feet?
And Jesus answered him what Iam doing you do not understand
now, but afterward you willunderstand.
Peter said to him you shallnever wash my feet, and Jesus
(27:30):
answered him if I do not washyou, you have no share with me.
Let's pray, father.
We thank you for just thispodcast, god, and just for this
conversation and just allowingus to delve deeper into your
word.
We thank you so much, god, forjust opening up your treasury of
knowledge to us and your wisdomand showing us your great love
(27:53):
to us in that, while we were yetsinners, christ died for the
ungodly and that, although wemight think we have some sort of
free will and choice to acceptyou, your word makes it
perfectly clear that we alreadychose sin, we already chose
darkness, and you came by yourchoice and rescued us, and we
(28:17):
thank you for that today, god.
And we pray, lord, that youwould just allow others to hear
this and understand it, and letit pierce their hearts, that,
god, they might be able tounderstand how much that means
and how much you love them.
We thank you and we praise you,god, and ask God that you would
bless all that hear and allthat might hear as we go forth
(28:40):
and share this with people aswell, in Jesus' name, amen, amen
.
Well, we hope today's showhelped you take a step closer in
your relationship with Jesusand that you have a better
understanding for just how muchGod loves you.
Next week, pastor Harry willcontinue his series in Ephesians
as he looks at chapter 3, themystery of the church revealed.
(29:01):
From the beginning of creation,god's desire was to choose a
people for himself to proclaimhis greatness and glorify him.
As we will see, this task hasbeen given to the church not as
an obligation, but one thatflows from a love in our hearts
towards him, because he firstloved us.
(29:22):
Like 1 John, 4, 17 through 19says by this is love perfected
with us, so that we may haveconfidence for the day of
judgment, because, as he is, soare we in this world.
There is no fear in love, butperfect love casts out fear, for
(29:44):
fear has to do with torment,and whoever fears has been
perfected has not been perfectedin love.
We love because he first lovedus.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Yeah, it's awesome.
Thank you, donnie.
I appreciate you, man.
Now, before we go, I want toremind our listeners that we
would love to hear from them andthat they can send us a text
message from the descriptionpage of this episode.
So please, guys, let us knowwhat you thought, what you
thought about today's show, anddon't forget to keep the
questions coming.
God bless, and we'll see younext time on the Takeaway.
(30:15):
Thank you.
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