November 13, 2025 • 58 mins
What if the problem isn’t that we talk about God’s love too much—but that we talk about it without His glory? We dig into how a well-meaning focus on feelings and personal fulfillment quietly turned worship into a performance and faith into self-help, and why Scripture’s story pulls us back to a far better center.
With Andrew Fuentes, who leads a young adult gathering in Millville, we explore how modern church culture often equates worship with music and emotion, and how that shift leaves people asking the wrong questions: How do I get saved? What is my calling? We reframe the conversation with Jesus’ own words: with man salvation is impossible, but with God all things are possible. From the Reformation’s five solas to the rise of prosperity preaching, we map the path from God-centered to man-centered—and chart a return through truth, Spirit, and surrender.
We unpack why God’s motive is His glory and how that actually magnifies love. At the cross, justice, wrath, mercy, and love meet; heaven and hell make sense; and worship becomes our response to revelation, not a mood we manufacture. The Samaritan woman shows what this looks like in real life: exposed by truth, met by grace, overflowing with joy that tells others, come and see. Purpose then moves from stage to street—whatever you do, do it to the glory of God—anchored by Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 10.
Ready to trade hype for holiness and sentiment for Scripture? Press play, share with a friend who loves deep theology with practical stakes, and tell us how you’re recentring your daily life on God’s glory. If this conversation challenged you, subscribe, leave a review, and join us next week as we keep pursuing truth and joy together.
If The Takeaway has encouraged you, we’d love to hear how you found the podcast or how God is using it in your life. You can reach out anytime through the “Text Us” link in the episode description.
Please visit www.chosenbydesign.net for more information on Pastor Harry’s new book, "Chosen By Design - God’s Purpose for Your Life."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (01:28):
Hello and welcome again to the takeaway.
I'm your host, Pastor HarryBarns, and today we're going to
be discussing a problem that wehave in our society.
We live in a time when God'slove is talked about everywhere,
but not always understoodrightly.
Most of us grew up hearing thatGod loves you, and that's true,
but somewhere along the way,that message started to shift.
(01:50):
It became less about who God isand more about what he can do
for us.
In John 3.16, we read, For Godso loved the world that he gave
his only begotten Son.
But that verse isn't about howgreat we are that God would love
us.
It's about how great God is thathe would reveal himself through
love.
His love is an expression of hisglory, not a replacement for it.
(02:13):
Now, today I want to talk abouthow we got here, how our
culture, even the church,started to put man at the center
of God's story and what it lookslike to return to a view of God
that's rooted in his glory.
So let's get into it.
Today I have with me a dearfriend of mine, Andrew Fuentes.
(02:33):
He is uh somebody who uh leadsunderground church uh young
adults uh gathering inMillville, New Jersey.
And last time in our last talkshow, we had Brock Bridges on
and they worked together atthat.
How are you doing today, Andrew?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Doing fantastic.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm excited to talk about thistopic and give my perspective
from a young adult'sperspective.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
So one of the things that hasbeen coming up a lot is the idea
of God as love.
It is something that I believeis the problem in our culture.
Um, not that God isn't love oris love, because we we know that
scripture says that he is, likewe saw in John 3.16, for God so
(03:18):
loved the world.
But what has happened is we've,I believe we've started to form
an image of God based on loveitself and not truly on what
scripture says.
So I want to ask a question.
Why do you think so much ofmodern Christianity sounds
centered on us, our purpose, ourhappiness, our destiny?
(03:39):
What's your perspective on thatbased on the uh young adults
that you work with?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
I would say that it has to do with how it makes us
feel.
It has to do with how love anduh being centered on us makes us
think that there's something forit, for us, that it was never
really truly designed to have.
God's love is supposed to bringus to glorify Him, but when we
(04:09):
talk about love, we often makeit in a way that helps us feel
and and think that that we arethe focus, that we are the
center when God is supposed tobe glorified and God is the
center.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
Well, let me ask you this.
With the um young adults, Imean, first of all, what's
what's the age range that youare you guys have there?
The age range is 18 to 29 yearsold.
Okay, so early, early, mid-20s,a lot of them.
And how many young adults areyou dealing with on a regular
basis?
Anywhere between 20 and 35.
Okay.
So you're getting a pretty goodperspective in in our area.
(04:46):
Um do you do you think that thisis something the feelings based,
right?
Because that's what we'redealing with.
When we think of love, we thinkabout how we feel and what feels
good, what feels right, orwhatever.
Do you where do you think thatcomes from in their lives?
Like, do you guys talk aboutthat?
Is it something in theirupbringing?
Is it something in the churchesthey go to?
(05:08):
Is it a combination of all ofit?
Is it a combination or is itjust their own thought process
of trying to understand orfigure out God on their own?
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
It's a mixture of all of them.
Um, I think a lot of people haveupbringings where they didn't
feel loved.
And today we live in a society,especially with young adults,
where church is a huge thing.
So anywhere where they feelloved and cared for, and the
focus is love, um, typicallyends up feeling better for them.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Do you do you think they realize how much of our
view or their view of God hasbeen shaped by culture rather
than scripture?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Some of them.
Um, I don't think that themajority would say that, though.
I think the majority thinks thatin their own mind they have come
up with this solution and thisunderstanding of who God is, and
they believe it to be true tothemselves.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
Yeah.
Do you what what's yourperspective on the church as a
whole?
So um I don't want to point outany one particular church
because I think the problem isthroughout our culture,
throughout our society.
So I'm not going to blame aperson or a place or anything,
but I think in some way we'veall been infiltrated with that
thought process of God is loveand then coming up with our own
(06:25):
definitions.
So how about this?
Did you have you ever asked aquestion?
Or and if you haven't, I wouldthen just ask you, how would you
define love?
Or how, if you've ever askedthat, how would somebody you ask
define love?
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
I have been asked that, and I don't ever have a
good explanation for it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
If I had to explain what love is, I would say it is
an action of caring and showingaffection towards someone.
It is a selfless motive thatshould benefit or upbringslash
care for someone.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Okay.
Um, so I mean, you're speakingof it as an action, which I
think is biblical.
I think Jesus said that.
I mean, he commands us to love.
And if he commands us to love, Idon't think he's commanding a
feeling.
I think he's commanding anaction.
Um, he said there's no greaterlove than this, that somebody
lays down their life foranother.
That's an action.
Yep.
(07:27):
So love is broad, right?
It's not a feeling.
But I I don't know, and wouldyou agree with this that most
people wouldn't define love thatway?
They see it as more as afeeling-based thing, something
they feel or something theyexperience, not something they
do.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Absolutely.
I think most churches believethat, but the world as a whole
100% believes that as themajority.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Yeah.
And and we see that in ourinteraction and worship and
everything.
It's like, how do we feel what'swhat's being brought up with
inside of us, right?
And um not only how we feel, butthen how we make others feel.
And we think, oh, how I makeAndrew feel determines whether I
love Andrew or not.
So if I make you feel good aboutyourself, you feel loved.
(08:10):
And we define that as love inour culture.
But if I make you feel bad,like, oh, well, you're not
loving me.
But would that be accurate fromscripture's perspective?
No.
No.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
I think to give an example, I had a young adult
tell me that the more worshipsongs that a church does, the
better it makes me feel.
Wow.
And the feeling is good.
Don't get me wrong, I think Godloves for us to feel good when
we're worshiping him.
But the action is so much moreimportant than the feeling.
(08:43):
Because whether we feel good ornot, we still are supposed to
glorify and praise God.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I want to go into the nextsegment here, um, and we're
gonna keep this going throughoutbecause this is the theme.
But basically, I want to talkabout real quickly how did we
get here?
Um, so we know the problem inour culture um is how we define
God, like how we look at him andhow that impacts us and our
(09:11):
culture.
So if we define God wrongly, orreally what I want to get into,
it's not even defining God.
Let's make it clear.
Defining God's motive.
Why did God do all that God hasdone?
And that's everything.
Why did he create the universe?
Why did he create the world?
Why did he create me?
That is the question.
(09:32):
Like if we can answer thatcorrectly, we can understand our
purpose in this world.
But if we don't understand that,that's gonna lead us into all
kinds of weird places.
And the problem is nobody'sasking the question.
Nobody's even discussing.
I mean, I've asked so manypeople, what do you think?
Why do you think God has donewhat he's done?
(09:53):
What's his motive?
And I always get the deer andheadlights look.
Like, well, I don't even knowwhere to begin with that.
That's my point.
It's like, are we failing?
Are churches failing, ourpastors failing by not answering
or asking the question and thenproviding the answer to that
question, which then impactseverything.
And it's leading people to theplace where then they have to
(10:14):
self-define.
They have to say, well, I thinkGod is this or God's doing this,
and I think, I think, I think,versus what does scripture say?
So by the time we get to the endof this show, I really want to
get into what does scripture sayso that we can define properly.
But clearly the problem is wedon't know as a culture why God
(10:34):
did all that he did.
And we come up with all kinds ofweird things.
So, how did we get here?
Um I would definitely like tostart with this.
I I've done, I'm not a historianby any stretch of the
imagination.
This is not my strong point.
Um, I'd like to get a little bitof feedback from you and see
what you think, Andrew.
But um from what I have found,we know the Reformation, uh,
(10:56):
which was with Martin Lutherwhen he came against the
Catholic Church in the 1500s,that uh it the Catholic Church
believe it was by grace andworks.
Like so man had to do somethingalong with grace to be saved.
And Martin Luther came along,and the Reformation was all
about bringing it back to uh bygrace alone.
In fact, there's it's called thefive solas.
(11:17):
It is we are, it's by faithalone, uh through grace alone,
in Christ alone, revealed inscripture alone, for the glory
of God alone.
Um, all those five things werekey to the reformation.
And then anything that leavesone of those five points aside
is outside the reformed theologymindset.
(11:39):
And just as a quick note, I wantto say this reformed theology
isn't necessarily Calvinism,even though Calvinists, people
who believe solely in God'selecting for the salvation, are
often reformed believers, butbeing a reformed believer does
not make you a Calvinist.
There's there's the difference.
And we'll discuss that maybelater.
(12:01):
And I discussed that in my showthroughout also in other
episodes.
But I wanted to set the stage,and then that was in the 1500s,
and then somewhere along theline in the 1700s, from what I
read, the uh the seed for theprosperity gospel started to
take effect.
And these were these were minor,basically where you had churches
that were dwindling, losing uhmembers in their congregation.
(12:26):
And the reformation messagereally preaches the wrath of God
and the inability of manstrongly, so that we can embrace
the grace of God, all that Goddoes.
But that message doesn't gowell.
People don't like to respond tothat.
So what happens is we startgiving a message that tickles
the ear and we start preachingthe God of love, uh, and we
(12:48):
start to leave wrath out, ourinabilities out, and what we
have to offer or what we can tryto do.
And that has slowly built intoour culture over the past two,
three hundred years to wherewe've now come to the prosperity
gospel age that is heavilyimpacting our society.
And we want to I want to talkabout that a little bit today
(13:10):
about where do we see that inevery area of our lives.
So, what's your thought?
Did you do any study on that?
Did you look into that?
And what have you found?
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Similar to you, um, kind of that same timeline, but
it was hard to get like adefinitive answer on the
timeline or who or what reallystarted the shift.
What I would say is that prettymuch unanimously, I saw online
in the late 1900s, early 2000s,we saw that big shift and we saw
(13:41):
it really take over.
So whatever was planted sproutedtremendously in the last 30, 40,
50 years towards this nowlove-centered, man-centered
faith versus what we saw before.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
Yeah.
Um, what do you think happenedparticularly, maybe, or and is
there anything that sticks outto you that made faith more
about personal experience thanGod's glory from what I found,
it was hard to get a singularanswer on that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
But you do see that, right?
Without a doubt.
You see it in everybody, you seeit everywhere.
Um that our personal experiencehas become elevated.
Uh, and again, I think even theway worship is in church, what
we call worship, and I wouldargue that it's probably not as
much worship as we think it is.
I think it's more entertainment,it's more emotion-driven.
(14:36):
Like we have these worshipbands, we have these stages and
light and settings, um, even themusic being picked to go with
the message, like everything isto set the stage of the heart.
And and I've heard pastors saythis is like, oh, worship is
about preparing you, you know,setting you up.
And I'm like, well, isn'tworship supposed to be the
(14:57):
overflow of the heart?
Isn't it supposed to be whatcomes out of us because we can't
contain it?
And then is it worship onlymusic?
What's your thought on that?
How do young adults see that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
Uh, we definitely see worship as primarily music.
I think it's just ourgeneration.
We are so used to all theseincredible worship songs on
Spotify and Apple Music,wherever you guys listen to it.
Um, we're also used to justmusic that makes us feel good.
We don't sing a lot of the oldhymns.
We don't go back to theseoriginal songs that were so
(15:30):
profound in truth as much as weought to.
Um, but that's, I think, justsadly where our generation has
has come from.
I also don't think that we'vehad great leaders to really show
us the correct path, the correcttruth when it comes to what
worship is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
I think one of the things we see throughout
scripture is statements likepeople went away worshiping.
And, you know, they worshipedGod and uh Abraham falling down
or John falling down as thoughdead, and just people bowing
down before the Lord and thatbeing called worship.
Yep.
They didn't fall down and startsinging a song with their face
(16:11):
to the ground.
That that was not theperspective.
You have to say, well, then whatwas it right there?
It was the reverence and all ofGod in the moment.
Yeah.
He was revealing himself to man,and man's only response was to
worship as though falling dead.
It was our proper response to aholy God.
Yes.
That's what real worship is.
(16:32):
And we've distorted it to thinkthat it's music, not saying that
singing isn't is bad.
I think there it has its placeand it's good, but we have
completely made it like that iswhat worship is.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
We've made that the headline.
The headline.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
This is it.
Praise and worship service, aswe hear it all the time.
You come in the praise andworship service this week, as if
you can't praise and worship Godotherwise.
And it's the reverence of who Heis, and we're not experiencing
God, I don't think, on a levelthat brings us to the place
where we respond to Godappropriately.
Instead, we're going to church,forcing a response and then
(17:12):
calling it worship.
But the question is, are weresponding to what we've
experienced of God, or are wedoing something in hopes that
something will happen?
Or are we looking at it assomething we offer to God?
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Yeah, let me answer that.
I think that what we hear is thefeeling.
So to give an example, have youever heard someone say, Man, I
got the goosebumps during thatworship service?
You know, we we focus so much onwhen something feels good that
when we get the goosebumps orwhen we feel incredibly
(17:45):
overjoyed, we think that that'sjust God.
And sometimes it is.
But I also think sometimes it'sjust because it's a really
good-sounding worship service.
I think what we need to get backto is the root, and that is the
word of God.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
When we look at the truths that are intertwined with
these songs, that is what shouldbring us to glorify and worship
and praise God, not the feeling,not so much the sound.
That's good, and I think Godlikes that.
But the truth of it is whatshould bring us to glorify Him.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Yeah.
So what do you think?
Um, let's move into the resultshere.
Um, what do you think the actualresults are of people?
And I want to talk about on anindividual basis.
Yeah.
I mean, I know you you mentor alot of people, you talk to a lot
of people one-on-one.
How many of the problems thatyou see in young adults' lives
(18:40):
are a result of misidentifyingGod's will, God's purpose, God's
motive for them and for thisworld?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
I see it all the time.
The biggest question I get, andthis legitimately might be the
number one question I get fromall young adults, is what is my
calling?
And that is the biggest strugglethat I think all young adults uh
deal with, whether it's where doI work, how do I spread the
gospel, who do I spread thegospel to, how do I do it?
(19:12):
There's so many questions andthey don't know the answers.
So yeah, there's a plethora ofthings that we just don't
understand as young adults.
And sadly, unless they're beingmentored by someone that really
has that wise understanding, theaverage church on a Sunday
morning doesn't give you thatkind of information.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
Yeah.
They're I think they're comingat it, and I I I even adults, I
mean, anybody I speak to is howdoes God benefit me?
You know, we have to go back tothe root cause and the root sin
is that we all have this in usum, that we want to be God.
Now, a lot of people are gonnasay, No, I don't, Harry.
(19:52):
I I don't I don't want to beGod.
I'm like, Yeah, you do.
That's the root of all sin.
I will be like the most highGod.
Every sin comes from that place.
That's what Satan's fall was.
He saw his beauty and he pridelifted up and he wanted to be
like the most high God.
And then he deceived Eve andsaying, you know, did God not
(20:13):
really say this?
And he knows the day you eat ofthe fruit of the tree of good
and evil that you will be likehim.
Yes.
Right?
That is the root.
All sin is rooted right there.
We we want to live for our will,our desires, not his, which
means whether we speak it ornot, we are saying in our
(20:36):
actions, I'm my own God.
That's what our sin tells us allthe time.
And I think right there is theproblem.
And then we formulate a God inour own image.
We don't, we aren't, we don'tsee ourselves as formed in his
image.
We say, oh, okay, uh, well, Iwant this or I want to do that,
or I think love is a feeling,and I should feel this way.
(21:00):
And and here's where I reallywant to get to is that then we
define God's motive as love.
This has been the number one,it's either been I don't know,
or it's his love.
And you know why?
I think John 3.16 rings in theirears.
It's the verse that just, it'sthere.
It's been for God's so love theworld, for God's so love the
world.
How many times has that beenbeaten in?
(21:21):
But if you misdefine love, thenall of a sudden love is for you.
I'm the world, I'm in the world,and he loves me, and he
sacrificed his son for me, andit becomes all about me.
Do you see that?
We can't see it any other waybecause we've already defined
the word from our own terms, notfrom the biblical terms.
(21:43):
Now, the statement is true forGod so loved the world, but that
is not his motive in all things.
Uh, I've taught this on manyoccasions, that his motive in
all things is his glory.
Yes.
Now, that doesn't belittle hislove, it doesn't negate it, it
actually is intertwined with it.
His glory is much more vast thanhis love.
(22:06):
Um, before I answer that, andI've answered this before, but
how would you define glory?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
Glory is to me the exaltation, the worth due to
God, to Jesus Christ.
It is the outward expressiontowards God, giving him all that
he is due.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Yeah.
So, and I think just to beclear, it's not our outward
expression.
It's his outward expression,right?
So he, when he is glorifyinghimself, he is expressing,
revealing to us all that he is.
And he is, yes, he's love, buthe's much more than that.
Correct.
(22:47):
Right?
He does all things in his love,but he's also just, merciful,
gracious.
He pours out wrath, um, and allthese things.
You can go down all theattributes of God, and he is,
it's true that he's all thosethings.
You know, I one of the examplesI like to give is heaven and
hell.
And so many people see it asheaven is me with God forever,
(23:09):
and hell is me separated fromGod forever.
That's not biblical.
You know, Ephesians 2 says thatwe were all children of wrath.
We were all like there wasnobody who was never not under
wrath.
Hell is eternal wrath.
Yeah, so God is very much inhell, but it is the attribute of
God that is just, dealing withman's sin who was unrepentive,
(23:33):
and his wrath is poured out thenfor all eternity.
So in his love, he's just.
You see that?
Like he's lovingly just.
We we want to fair God.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, how is that fair?
Or, you know, what about thosewho never had the opportunity to
accept Christ?
Is that fair?
Um, what's fair is that we allget to go to hell and be under
(23:54):
wrath for eternity.
That's fair.
Um, but he's merciful.
And Romans 9, I believe it is,is that he for his own purposes
shows compassion, whom he showspassion.
He rose up, we told he rose upPharaoh to show his power, and
that there are those who areunder wrath so that the children
(24:15):
of righteousness may know hisglory, may know his power, for
his power to reveal himself.
He raises people up who areunder and stay under wrath.
Now, people, God doesn't placethem there.
He doesn't like, oh, let me putthese people under wrath.
They are under wrath, they'realready there.
He leaves them there.
(24:35):
Yeah.
The question is, why does heremove us from there?
You know, it it's I've said thisbefore the question of uh people
ask all the time, why do badthings happen to good people?
But what did Jesus say?
What did Jesus say about who'sgood?
None of us.
None of us.
He said, Who's good?
There's none that are good, butGod.
You know, none are good.
(24:56):
We all deserve wrath.
So when we see that, it'ssupposed to be a picture of wow,
I deserve that.
Not how is that fair for them?
They should get what I get, butwe have to stop and realize you
don't deserve what you got.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
That's what should generate worship.
That goes back to the place.
What is it's the reverence andawe of God of getting what you
don't deserve.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Yeah, that love and grace is what should bring us to
glory.
Yeah.
Bring us, bring us to glorifyHim, is the correct way to say
that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Yeah.
So I think the result is, youknow, we live in a world where
people are going aroundself-defining God.
They aren't looking atScripture, they aren't asking
what Scripture says about whatdoes God say about Himself, and
it has a lot to say about whatGod has to say about Himself.
(25:50):
You know, one of the things I'velearned early on, I don't know
if you've ever heard this, uh,the Bible, basic instructions
before leaving earth.
Do you ever hear that?
No.
Now I don't know where it camefrom or who came up with it.
But you know what that isbasically saying, those
instructions are for me toprepare me for heaven.
And I I have learned since I'vebeen teaching for the past five
(26:11):
years now, uh, in my studies, Iwas like, wow, scripture is
anything but instructions for usbefore leaving earth.
It is about the revelation ofGod.
Yeah.
He is revealing himself throughhis word so that we can see him
and his worth and all of who heis, so that we can magnify him
(26:32):
in our worthlessness.
It's instructions.
There are commands there for us,but those commands are not there
because we can achieve them.
Those commands are there to showus our inabilities, that we
can't achieve them.
When Jesus says, for instance,be holy as your Father in heaven
is holy, can you do that?
I cannot.
Neither can I.
And anybody who looks at thatshould be honest with themselves
(26:52):
and be like, I don't have thatone.
But I think what most people do,they look at that and say, oh,
it's not about being holy.
It's about attempting.
That's what God is doing.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
We're going to fail miserably.
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
Fail miserably, you know, and I'm like, no way.
I was like, the law, Paul toldtells us, the law was given as a
guardian until the seed shouldcome, which is Jesus Christ.
That the law suppresses us, likeit was showing us our inability.
That was what the Jews gotwrong.
They said, like, I think of therich young ruler.
Uh I think this is a beautifulstatement uh that happens.
(27:24):
If anybody knows the story, thisthis rich young ruler comes to
Jesus and he says, Lord, whatmust I do to have eternal life?
I love it.
It's a great question.
He's asking, how?
How, what must I do?
This is the how.
And this is where I think we gosideways.
And Jesus corrects the sidewaysthought.
I think people today ask that.
How do I get saved?
(27:45):
How can I go to heaven?
How can I be right with God?
Wrong question.
Wrong question.
And Jesus, and here's whathappens.
Jesus says, you know, here's thelaw, blah, blah, blah.
And he tells him the law and hesays, I've done all these since
my youth.
And he says, Oh, you want to beperfect?
Go and sell all that you haveand come and follow after me.
And he goes away sorrowful.
Now, at that moment, he thenturns to his disciples and
(28:08):
Peter's standing there, and hesays, It is hard for a rich man
to be saved.
So it's easier for a camel to gothrough the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to be saved.
And then Peter's response is soimportant.
Peter goes, Well, then Lord, whocan be saved?
So, how do you think most peoplein our culture read that right
there?
What do you think their thoughtprocess is when they hear that?
(28:31):
Is it materialism that's theproblem?
Is that how most people look atthat?
Probably.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Although it's really a heart posture.
It's an ability to actuallyfollow Christ.
Um, but yeah, I think the morethat we have, the harder it is
to give it up because we're soattached to the world.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
So this was one of the things that blew me away.
And I gotta be honest, I justrecently did this study and I
was as guilty as anybody else,and I saw what seemed to be like
I saw Peter as somebody who lefteverything and followed Jesus,
but that materialism wasn't thephysical, but it was in the
heart.
Like I'm holding on to things ofthis world.
And that's what Jesus waspointing to, and that's what
(29:12):
Peter was saying, but that's notwhat was happening.
Uh I had to do a little bitdeeper dive, and it always goes
back to culture and context andeverything like that.
And in the Old Testament, uh,riches were the fruit or the
evidence of righteousness.
God blessed those who werefaithful to him.
You think of Abraham, think ofJob, David, Solomon, you go down
(29:33):
the list of the patriarchs inthe Old Testament and promises.
God promised, hey, if you obeymy commands, I will make you
fruitful and multiply, and Iwill bless the land, I will
bless you, and you will haveriches, and your storehouses
will be full, right?
So that was Peter's perception.
So he was saying if this man whois righteous, who has lived the
(29:55):
law and has the evidence ofGod's favor on him, and if he's
not saved, then who can besaved?
So he was asking the rightquestion.
It wasn't about materialism inas in a negative sense.
It was actually aboutmaterialism in a positive sense.
Yeah.
Very different than because why?
We've been taught our materialpossessions are wrong.
And I would like to point outthat is a prosperity gospel
(30:16):
message because the prosperitygospel teaches this you give so
that God blesses.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
But the result of that is that the leadership or
the pastors of those prosperitygospel churches prosper.
You don't.
All right.
So we've heard that message somany times.
Physical prosperity is not bad.
It is actually favor of God.
It's a blessing of God.
And it's been distorted.
And again, there's yet anotherresult of where it's been
(30:44):
distorted.
What Jesus then says, I want topoint out is he takes away the
how.
It's not about materialism.
It's not about any of that.
What Jesus says, you know, withman, this is impossible, but
with God, all things arepossible.
That word right there takes awaythe attempt.
He says, impossible.
That word is, Jesus, I don'tthink randomly says words.
(31:08):
I think everything Jesus says isvery purposeful.
And we can look at it and say,okay, this is coming from the
mouth of Jesus.
There has to be somethingimportant that he's saying here.
And when he uses the wordimpossible, he takes away any
possibility of how.
There is no how do you getsaved?
The question is, why do you getsaved in the first place?
What is it about God that he'sdoing?
And Jesus said, with God allthings are possible, that God is
(31:31):
doing things that are possiblethat there are no hows to
explain.
Yeah.
Would you agree with that?
I agree.
And I think if we couldunderstand that as a people,
that God is working in us for areason, not how we do what we
do.
You have nothing to offer to it.
Your how falls short.
You can't be holy as your fatherin heaven is holy.
You're all of God's commandsshow us that you know, that rich
(31:52):
young ruler went away sorrowful.
Was it really possible for himto sell all that he had and come
and follow Jesus?
Some would say, Yeah.
I'm like, so was he supposed tocome butt naked, sell his
clothes too, and literally comewith nothing?
You know, the reality is he'scoming with something.
And even Peter later says, like,Lord, look, we've left all and
(32:13):
come and followed after you.
And Jesus' response was, Nobodyhas.
Nobody's left everything andfollowed after me.
Um, so it really then gets intothe why.
Why did God do what he does did?
And what is God revealing abouthimself that's far more than
just love?
What's your thought on that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Um, I would certainly agree as far as
everything that you just said.
Um, one of the scriptures thatcame to mind was John 6.
I had to look it up.
John 6, 44, but it says, No onecan come to me unless the Father
who sent me draws him.
And it it makes me think of theyoung ritualer of we can try our
hardest, and we will not be ableto pursue Christ if the Father
(32:54):
doesn't draw us.
We don't have that innateability.
Yeah.
Um, but can you repeat thatquestion one more time?
Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
So it it was really along the lines of we're getting
into now what's the real motiveof God?
You know, what is God revealingabout himself beyond love?
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
Well, I know the real motive.
I don't know how to answer thequestion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
But he is revealing something about himself that
love should point to.
I think if I'm getting thequestion right, is that God is
pointing to his glory, to whatshould be brought about when we
feel his love, when weexperience his presence, when we
get these different aspects ofhim, it should all bring back to
(33:40):
glory.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Yeah.
So um I I just did a recent showon the woman at the well in John
4.
Okay.
John chapter 4 was the woman atthe well.
And Jesus actually says what thefather's looking for.
Uh he says, the father islooking for those who will
worship in truth and spirit.
And I was like, oh, well, thereit is.
(34:00):
This is what the father'slooking for.
This is what he's doing.
He's he's looking for this.
Now, again, it could be lookedat as God is giving us the
option to choose.
Again, I think a lot of peoplewill say that, oh, we have to
choose to worship in truth andspirit.
Um, but again, I think thatloses context that God is
creating, he's self-glorifyinghimself.
SPEAKER_01 (34:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
We don't have it within ourselves to glorify God.
Remember, God is holy andperfect and true.
Anything we offer that's lessthan perfect does not glorify
God.
Correct.
He has to do something to makethat right.
Jesus glorified God perfectly.
Um, he never sinned, he neverdid anything wrong.
What God is doing is, I believe,you think of this woman at the
(34:46):
well, real quick, uh, because Ijust did the teaching on this,
but she came to the well in themiddle of the day, shameful,
isolated, alone, uh, because ofher sins and everything else.
She was an outcast of culture.
And Jesus was already there atthe well waiting for her.
It wasn't a divine appointmentfor him as much as it was for
her.
He had to go through Samaria,scripture says, and he was there
(35:07):
waiting for her.
She wasn't seeking him.
He looked for her, he sought herout and found her.
And it was through his commandsthat he started to reveal her
inabilities, he revealed hersin, and then he revealed his
grace that pointed to God'sglory.
And what what he did was hepointed out her sin, her
(35:28):
shamefulness, but at the exactsame time revealed his grace,
his love for her.
And she didn't say a prayer.
She didn't like say, Lord, comeinto my heart.
He didn't break down this deeptheological thing.
She didn't have to knowsomething.
She was utterly and completelytransformed when she met the
Messiah right there at the well.
When he said, I who you speakto, I am.
(35:49):
That's what he says in theGreek, I am.
Uh most of the Englishtranslations use uh I am he.
Yes.
But it just says, I am.
So he's making a God statementthere.
And what this woman's responsewas was beautiful.
She runs back to the town, sheleaves her water dog, she goes,
and that was worship.
Right there was worship.
Her reverence and all of Godproduced a running, not away
(36:13):
from God, but an overflow of joyof who God was.
And what she brought to the townwas nothing of herself.
She was still that same broken,sinful, pathetic, isolated
woman, but now had a joy comingout of her that was
unexplainable.
And this society, this communitysaw that and they were attracted
(36:35):
to that.
They were no longer looking ather shame and her sin, but they
couldn't explain the joy.
So then what did they do?
She says, Come and see the onewho should said everything, he
told me everything about myself.
And they came and saw.
They weren't drawn by her sin,they were drawn by her joy,
which was true worship.
(36:55):
Jesus produced in her what shecouldn't produce in herself.
And he produced it in her byrevealing who he was and who God
was in him.
And then that produced a joythat pointed back to him.
And that was the beauty, is likeJohn Piper, I've said this so
many times, again, God is mostglorified in us when we are most
satisfied in him.
(37:16):
Yes.
And that satisfaction producesexaltation, praise, worship in
the sense that this becomesworship.
Speaking about him, talkingabout him, living for him is all
an expression of his greatness.
I do what I do because he'sworthy, not because I'm perfect.
And all I keep offering is myimperfect, but my heart is set
(37:40):
on his worthiness, and thatbecomes the worship.
And it's what he did, not what Idid.
I'm only offering to him what heproduced in me.
And that brings glory to him.
That brings glory to him.
It it shows that he's revealingthe vastness of his attributes,
that he brings dead men to life.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
Can I so with with Romans, it's one of the
scriptures that you had writtendown, actually, but I think what
she experienced is what a lot ofbelievers experience when they
first feel that draw from theFather, where she experienced
that from him and through himand to him are all things.
Yeah.
She experienced that in thatmoment.
And when whenever you asksomeone to give them their
(38:22):
story, their story often, in myeyes, doesn't reflect a
self-centered gospel.
It actually shows the opposite.
But the way we think and what wesay when that question is asked
is often a self-centered gospel.
So when you ask someone to givethem their story, they'll
normally tell you that they wereat the lowest level.
They were at the worst point oftheir life and God met them
(38:47):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
So it was nothing they did.
In fact, it should have been thelast point or the least amount
of time that God should have metthem there because they were
doing nothing to earn it, todeserve it.
And that is the true gospelright there.
They couldn't have earned it.
They didn't do anything.
But when most people give theirtestimony, it often is I was at
my worst and God met me there.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Oh, very much so.
And again, I think the problemreally sets in not before
somebody gets saved, but oftenafter.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
So, you know, I've thought about this on many
occasions with uh the debatebetween Arminianism and
Calvinism.
You know, is it us choosing oris it God electing?
And and we get stuck in thisplace of the how one gets saved.
But at the moment of salvation,you you know, I know it was for
me, I'm sure it was for you.
I wasn't thinking about the how.
SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
I didn't care how.
SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
I just felt the joy.
Exactly.
I felt the connection.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yes.
God did something, God revealedhimself in some way that
impacted us.
He influenced us.
I I've said this before.
God's influence is perfect.
So, for instance, if you meet meon the street for the very first
time, my influence or my impacton you is going to determine
(40:02):
what you do with me, right?
Like maybe, maybe I'm a goodperson, but I have foot and
mouth disease, which by the wayis true.
And I say a lot of stupid thingsin my first interactions.
Maybe it's because I'm nervous,or maybe it's just because I'm a
ding-dong or whatever it is.
And I have a tendency to turnpeople off, but that's not a
true representation of who I am.
So my influence is pretty poor,you know, it on that level.
(40:25):
My influence is more with thosewho stuck it out with me, learn
who I am.
And they're like, oh, Harry'sheart is actually really
accurate.
Yeah, thank you.
Um, I wish I could fix thatfirst part, but that's the way
God made me and it keeps mehumble.
You're working on it.
I'm working on it.
But you know what?
That's all I can do.
I'm I'm not perfect.
But God, on the other hand, thisis what I think people miss.
(40:50):
Sorry about that, my phone'sringing.
Um, this is what people miss isthat um God's influence is
perfect.
You know, there's when Godintervenes in our lives and he
shows up.
I think of Paul on the road toDamascus and Jesus revealed
himself right there.
His influence was perfect.
(41:11):
Yes.
You could say Paul had a choice,but did Paul have a choice?
Because when you meet the risenLord, you're gonna respond
because you're his createdbeing.
You were created for hispurpose, for his pleasure, and
you're gonna respond in a waythat's appropriate to him.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
Right?
And that's what I believehappens at a genuine salvation
when we're born again or bornfrom above, is we are now
responding appropriately toGod's revelation in our lives.
We aren't asking how, how is itirrelevant?
Because with with man, it'simpossible.
Correct.
But with God, all things arepossible, and he's doing what's
impossible.
And it's not how is God doingit?
(41:50):
The question is, why is Goddoing it?
Because I'm not worthy of it.
When God reveals his grace to meor to you, the first thing that
happens is grace reveals ourinability, it reveals our
worthlessness and his worthsimultaneously.
That in that moment, why so manypeople throughout the scripture,
when they saw Jesus or they sawGod, they saw the angel of the
(42:13):
Lord, fell down on their face isbecause they realized their
worthlessness in the midst ofhis worth.
And the only true response wasto fall as though dead.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
That was worship.
That was what the heartgenerated.
It's what happened.
Because what did God say toMoses?
If I reveal my glory to you,what would happen?
You'd fall dead, right?
You'll die.
Yeah.
I can't reveal all my glory toyou.
You can't handle it.
So even, and I've experiencedthis, even partial glory.
When he veils himself, I almostcan't handle it.
(42:45):
You know, I think of uh a story,uh Dale Moody.
You ever hear of Moody?
I don't.
So he was a great evangelist,um, what, 100, 200 years ago or
whatever.
He was uh had a church he waswitnessing and to a thousand
kids in Chicago, and then thegreat Chicago fire happened.
And the story goes, he leftChicago.
Um, he was distraught because hehad just given a sermon in
(43:07):
Chicago and he had mentioned thegospel, and he says, if you
would like to respond to thegospel, come back next week and
I'll finish.
And then the great Chicago Firehappened.
He never got to do it, itdestroyed his heart.
He goes to New York to raisemoney, to rebuild the church,
and God broke him there.
God wrecked his heart rightthere on the streets of New York
City.
And I love this.
He actually said, the grace andpower of God came upon him so
(43:31):
strongly, he asked God torelent.
Like it was just too much.
God, stop.
I can't, I can't, I can't, it'stoo much glory, it's too much
grace.
That's what grace does.
When you are interacting withGod, it it destroys you and
brings you life simultaneously.
Yeah.
And God, to ask God to relent ofhis grace, think about that.
Have you ever experienced God onsuch a level where you ask him
(43:55):
to relent?
Back off, stop.
I can't take it anymore.
I'm about to die here.
Right?
That's amazing.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
And I think that's somethingthat we should all want.
But that is God revealing hisgreatness, revealing his glory,
and that's what he wants to do.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Even with Moses, when he came down, he his face
shone so brightly.
Yeah.
You know, I can't even imaginewhat that would look like today.
But we have certainly seenpeople when they get transformed
and renewed by the Father, theylook different.
They talk and act different.
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Yeah.
So I I a verse I want to readfrom Isaiah 48, 9, 11, and we'll
move into this last segmenthere.
Um, it says, For my name's sake,I defer my anger, for the sake
of my praise, I restrain it foryou, that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, butnot as silver.
I have tried you in the furnaceof affliction for my own sake,
(44:53):
for my own sake.
He says it twice.
I do it, for how should my namebe profaned?
My glory I will not give toanother.
Right there.
And there are many scriptureslike that.
Ephesians 1, 5 to 6.
Uh, we're talking about to thepraise of his glorious grace.
Uh Romans 11, 36 says, uh, forfrom him and through him and to
(45:16):
him are all things.
To him be glory forever.
Amen.
Again and again and again, we'retalking about it's for glory.
Habakkuk 2.14, for the earthwill be filled with the
knowledge of the glory of theLord as the waters cover the
sea.
God is about his glory, and theaffliction he pours out is for
our refining, and he says that'sfor his glory, to humble us and
(45:37):
to make himself greater.
Like he's not going to letanybody else take his glory from
him.
Now that sounds suppressing,like, hey, he's he's destroying
us for his own selfish benefit.
No, no, he's he's doing it forour benefit.
What he's desiring is worshipand truth and spirit.
Yes.
And that truth and spirit, thetruth is you are unworthy.
The spirit, then, makes itpossible for you to worship
(46:00):
where you couldn't worshipbefore.
Yeah.
To have reverence and awe.
And that is where the differenceis between those who are saved,
who who accept and embrace andworship God for the grace given
to them that exposes their sin.
And then when God's word revealssin to those who don't want to
accept it, those are not saved,right?
They're still living in theflesh.
(46:22):
And we all once were in thatposition.
So that's the point.
We know that God, what he'srevealing, his real motive, is
his glory.
And, you know, I think that's abroad perspective.
Now, the last segment here ishow should we respond?
How do we get to a place in oursociety where we can teach
people, show people, and evenourselves where we respond
(46:43):
appropriately?
How can believers today start torecenter their faith on God's
glory?
What would you say you would dowith uh the young adults that
you lead?
SPEAKER_01 (46:52):
Uh, I ask them to look at the scripture
themselves.
So stop, stop listening andbelieving everything that the
pastors at their churches say.
We need to be people that diveinto God's word.
And if we don't do that, we'regoing to believe every doctrine,
every theological, you know,thing that someone in our circle
(47:12):
says, especially our pastors,they have a huge influence on
us.
So I tell them don't takeeverything that you hear as
truth, as fact, look into it.
That is the biggest reason andproblem that I think we have
today is that we are sodependent on the people that
quote unquote do the researchthemselves that we don't do it
(47:33):
ourselves.
And that leads us astray.
That's why we think that aman-centered faith is real.
That's why we think that we haveall this ability to do things on
our own when the Bible is clearthat we can't.
We're we're evil, we're sinful,our nature is sin.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
So that's the number one thing that I say is I want
people to get into the wordthemselves.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:55):
And that starts primarily through discipleship.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
Yeah.
I uh I've pointed at John 14,15, and 16 a lot, those chapters
where Jesus says, Ask anythingin my name, um, and I will do
it, so that the Father will beglorified in the Son, and then
He says, so that you're uh thatyou may be fruitful, and then
thirdly, so that your joy may befull.
Our joy is the overflow of hisglory, his expression in our
(48:19):
lives.
And the fruit that we're askingfor is to live lives that it
that it that come in contactwith that, so that we can live
in the will of God, not againstthe will of God.
But we have to recognize that weare constantly living against
the will of God, which is sin.
Anything that is outside thewill of God is sin.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe adultery or theft or murder.
(48:39):
It's anything that is contraryto his will.
And that's where the questionis: what's my purpose in life?
How do I live the will of God inmy life?
The will of God is that he'sseeking those who will worship
in truth and spirit.
And he that that is producedfrom the joy that Jesus wants to
give you, the fullness of joy,that you are who you are, where
you are, when you are, becauseGod designed it that way.
(49:01):
You know, we're looking for ourpurpose outside of ourselves,
but your life is his purpose.
Yeah, like we have to stop doingthat and worship in truth and
spirit where we are, not wherewe think we're supposed to be.
Yeah, you know, and again, Ithink that's the point.
Like we hear the prosperitygospel all the time of like God
wants to bless you, God wants todo this as if God can't, right?
(49:22):
But you have to do this.
What do you have to do?
You have to give, you have toserve, you have to humble
yourself, and you have to, youhave to, you have to, you have
to.
It's the house and it's theman-centeredness.
But the gospel says, no,surrender.
It's about surrender.
It's about meeting God rightwhere you are and accepting it
and abandoning everything andsay, God, I love you for who you
are, where I am, with what Ihave, and allowing joy to
(49:45):
overflow through your situation,not because of your situation.
SPEAKER_01 (49:50):
Yeah.
Romans 12, it says, I appeal toyou therefore, brothers, by the
mercies of God to present yourbodies as a living sacrifice
holy and acceptable to God,which is your spiritual worship.
I want to highlight by themercies of God.
Yeah.
Because if it was not for hismercy over our life, over our
sin, then we would not be ableto do that.
(50:10):
We would not be able to presentour bodies as a living sacrifice
holy and acceptable to him.
Yeah.
We would not be able to havethat be our spiritual worship if
it was not for his mercy.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
That's right.
And again, what 1 Corinthians 1031 says, so whatever you eat or
drink or whatever you do, do allto the glory of God.
Yes.
Everything.
Like he's wrapping it all upinto a nice tight ball.
He's like, it's everything youdo.
What's your purpose in life?
Do it to the glory of God,whatever you're doing.
Yep.
That's the smallest of things tothe largest of things.
Stop looking for this grandcalling.
(50:42):
I believe what happens is whenwe start expressing God's
greatness in all that we do, thepath gets laid out before us.
When you worship God in truthand spirit, he will lay out a
path for you that will take youwherever he wants to go.
Stop looking like the rich youngruler to the evidence of the
spirit.
Stop looking for the wealth orthe prestige or the stage or the
(51:06):
situations or the job, as iflike that's the evidence that
you're living your purpose inlife.
SPEAKER_01 (51:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
You know, your purpose in life could be to be
in prison like Paul was.
Your purpose in life could be togo to the cross like Jesus did.
Your purpose in life could be tobe beheaded.
Your purpose in life might be tosit in a room in a basement and
do a podcast like we're doingright now.
It's who knows?
And I'm not saying this is myonly purpose.
My purpose is to not onlyworship God in truth and spirit,
(51:33):
but to lead others to that placetoo.
And that's all of our purpose,to go into the world, making
disciples, teaching them andshowing them the things that
Christ has shown us.
And that's what He's shown me.
It's what He's shown you is thatI want to help people get to a
place where they can havegenuine joy in all situations,
whether somebody's sick anddying, broken and hurt, lost and
(51:56):
unsaved, that you can rejoiceand praise God in all of it.
SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
I think that also proves, though, that God's main
motive being glorifying himselfis good for us.
Yeah.
We we, as we were in our sin, wecould never be fully satisfied.
There was nothing that could.
That's why we in our own lives,even as we're saved, we go to
one thing to another because weget bored of something or we
(52:21):
don't like something anymore.
But when God saved us, he nowgives us an ability to be truly
satisfied by glorifying him, byby giving ourselves up to him.
And that is something we had noability to do before, which is
why glorifying him actually iswhat is best for us.
And John Piper, why he said it,is because we are satisfied in
(52:43):
him.
SPEAKER_00 (52:43):
Yeah.
I think that's the beauty of it.
Like I hope everybody hears thattoday, that God is revealing
himself to this world.
God so loved the world that hegave his only begotten son.
He made himself known to theworld through his son Jesus
Christ.
That's the idea there.
(53:04):
He already chose to revealhimself to this world, and God
is most and fully glorified atthe cross.
We said we see the fullness ofGod, the fullness of his glory
in the face of Jesus Christ.
And we see that at the cross,where his full wrath, full
justness, full mercy, fullgrace, and his full love is
poured out simultaneously at thecross.
(53:25):
It is like the lampstand or thelighthouse in the midst of all
of history that points backwardand forward to God's glory.
You don't see it anywhere elsemore on display than in that
moment.
And we live in the joy of thatlight, pointing back in history,
saying that's where God's glorywas fully revealed.
(53:48):
I think it's beautiful.
You know, when we sit when wehear the question of why did
Jesus have to die on the cross,because he wanted to express the
greatness of his beauty.
God is nowhere seen morebeautiful than at that place in
time, revealing all of who he isto us that we would worship him
(54:08):
for that, that he is givinghimself to us.
This is not us.
This is not about us.
This is about him.
What it generates in us is himglorifying himself back to
himself.
We are the canvas on which hepaints it, brings dead men to
life.
And that's the point where theevidence of that.
So we have to live our livesthat way.
(54:28):
And I think our ministries andwhat we do, evangelism and all
of it, becomes effective when welet go of the result and just
enjoy him for who he is and whathe does.
It's his word that brings peopleto life.
It's his glory that he'srevealing.
And we we are the evidence ofthat.
We're his fruit.
We're so worried about our ownfruit, but we are his fruit.
(54:51):
He produced that.
SPEAKER_01 (54:52):
And I would also say that when we do give that up to
him, we end up seeing the fruitanyway.
Yeah.
We often do.
I'm in discipleship with someonefrom my young adults group right
now, and I am getting the joyright now of seeing him getting
the revelation of God's glory.
It is being revealed to himcurrently as we meet on a
bi-weekly basis.
(55:13):
And it is a beautiful thing.
And I think that the more thatyou guys start to understand the
true motive of God, the morethat it's actually going to
bring joy and satisfaction toyou.
SPEAKER_00 (55:23):
Absolutely.
Awesome.
Um, you have anything else youwant to add before we close up
today?
I think that's good for me.
Awesome.
I appreciate it.
All right.
Do you want to close us inprayer?
Yes, sir.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (55:34):
Heavenly Father, you are just so good.
God, you have in such a waycrafted this world and us in
such a beautiful manner.
And God, it is such a beautywhen we get to be a part of your
masterful plan to themasterpiece that is your glory,
(55:57):
um, your love, Lord.
And while we struggle with hardquestions of, I think, deep
theology over hundreds and eventhousands of years, Lord, we
need your spirit to come andhelp us.
So, Lord, would you help us tocontinue to search your
scripture, continue to divedeeper to know the real truth?
(56:19):
Lord, we don't want to be ledastray.
You warn about it all the timein scripture, about false
doctrine, false teachers, Lord.
Would you help us help usdiscern when something's off?
Help us discern when somethingis untruthful, God.
We we need you on our own will.
We are so far from being able todo the things that you want us
(56:40):
to.
We're so far from being able toglorify you.
But alongside of you, with yourhelp, with your spirit, we can
do so much more.
So, Lord, we we thank you forthis topic of your true motive.
We thank you that you have beenrevealing to Harry and even
through Harry, to myself, andthrough your scripture, to be
(57:00):
able to understand that yourglory is something that is
beautiful.
It's not this narcissistic,self-centered thing that like
doesn't include us.
It actually brings satisfactionto us as we glorify you.
So thank you that we get topartake in that.
Thank you that we get to partakein your glory and and feel the
(57:21):
beauty of it, feel the weight ofit.
You are a good God and you carefor us.
You hand picked us, Lord.
So just help us.
Help us going forward to searchyour scripture, to know your
truth, and to spread yourgospel.
We love you, Lord.
It's in your name we pray.
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
Amen.
Thank you for joining us today,Andrew.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (57:41):
Thank you, Mary.
Hello and welcome again to the takeaway.
I'm your host, Pastor HarryBarns, and today we're going to
be discussing a problem that wehave in our society.
We live in a time when God'slove is talked about everywhere,
but not always understoodrightly.
Most of us grew up hearing thatGod loves you, and that's true,
but somewhere along the way,that message started to shift.
(01:50):
It became less about who God isand more about what he can do
for us.
In John 3.16, we read, For Godso loved the world that he gave
his only begotten Son.
But that verse isn't about howgreat we are that God would love
us.
It's about how great God is thathe would reveal himself through
love.
His love is an expression of hisglory, not a replacement for it.
(02:13):
Now, today I want to talk abouthow we got here, how our
culture, even the church,started to put man at the center
of God's story and what it lookslike to return to a view of God
that's rooted in his glory.
So let's get into it.
Today I have with me a dearfriend of mine, Andrew Fuentes.
(02:33):
He is uh somebody who uh leadsunderground church uh young
adults uh gathering inMillville, New Jersey.
And last time in our last talkshow, we had Brock Bridges on
and they worked together atthat.
How are you doing today, Andrew?
SPEAKER_01 (02:47):
Doing fantastic.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm excited to talk about thistopic and give my perspective
from a young adult'sperspective.
SPEAKER_00 (02:56):
Yeah, I really appreciate that.
So one of the things that hasbeen coming up a lot is the idea
of God as love.
It is something that I believeis the problem in our culture.
Um, not that God isn't love oris love, because we we know that
scripture says that he is, likewe saw in John 3.16, for God so
(03:18):
loved the world.
But what has happened is we've,I believe we've started to form
an image of God based on loveitself and not truly on what
scripture says.
So I want to ask a question.
Why do you think so much ofmodern Christianity sounds
centered on us, our purpose, ourhappiness, our destiny?
(03:39):
What's your perspective on thatbased on the uh young adults
that you work with?
SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
I would say that it has to do with how it makes us
feel.
It has to do with how love anduh being centered on us makes us
think that there's something forit, for us, that it was never
really truly designed to have.
God's love is supposed to bringus to glorify Him, but when we
(04:09):
talk about love, we often makeit in a way that helps us feel
and and think that that we arethe focus, that we are the
center when God is supposed tobe glorified and God is the
center.
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Yeah.
Well, let me ask you this.
With the um young adults, Imean, first of all, what's
what's the age range that youare you guys have there?
The age range is 18 to 29 yearsold.
Okay, so early, early, mid-20s,a lot of them.
And how many young adults areyou dealing with on a regular
basis?
Anywhere between 20 and 35.
Okay.
So you're getting a pretty goodperspective in in our area.
(04:46):
Um do you do you think that thisis something the feelings based,
right?
Because that's what we'redealing with.
When we think of love, we thinkabout how we feel and what feels
good, what feels right, orwhatever.
Do you where do you think thatcomes from in their lives?
Like, do you guys talk aboutthat?
Is it something in theirupbringing?
Is it something in the churchesthey go to?
(05:08):
Is it a combination of all ofit?
Is it a combination or is itjust their own thought process
of trying to understand orfigure out God on their own?
SPEAKER_01 (05:16):
It's a mixture of all of them.
Um, I think a lot of people haveupbringings where they didn't
feel loved.
And today we live in a society,especially with young adults,
where church is a huge thing.
So anywhere where they feelloved and cared for, and the
focus is love, um, typicallyends up feeling better for them.
SPEAKER_00 (05:38):
Do you do you think they realize how much of our
view or their view of God hasbeen shaped by culture rather
than scripture?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
Some of them.
Um, I don't think that themajority would say that, though.
I think the majority thinks thatin their own mind they have come
up with this solution and thisunderstanding of who God is, and
they believe it to be true tothemselves.
SPEAKER_00 (06:02):
Yeah.
Do you what what's yourperspective on the church as a
whole?
So um I don't want to point outany one particular church
because I think the problem isthroughout our culture,
throughout our society.
So I'm not going to blame aperson or a place or anything,
but I think in some way we'veall been infiltrated with that
thought process of God is loveand then coming up with our own
(06:25):
definitions.
So how about this?
Did you have you ever asked aquestion?
Or and if you haven't, I wouldthen just ask you, how would you
define love?
Or how, if you've ever askedthat, how would somebody you ask
define love?
SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
I have been asked that, and I don't ever have a
good explanation for it.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
If I had to explain what love is, I would say it is
an action of caring and showingaffection towards someone.
It is a selfless motive thatshould benefit or upbringslash
care for someone.
SPEAKER_00 (07:07):
Okay.
Um, so I mean, you're speakingof it as an action, which I
think is biblical.
I think Jesus said that.
I mean, he commands us to love.
And if he commands us to love, Idon't think he's commanding a
feeling.
I think he's commanding anaction.
Um, he said there's no greaterlove than this, that somebody
lays down their life foranother.
That's an action.
Yep.
(07:27):
So love is broad, right?
It's not a feeling.
But I I don't know, and wouldyou agree with this that most
people wouldn't define love thatway?
They see it as more as afeeling-based thing, something
they feel or something theyexperience, not something they
do.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Absolutely.
I think most churches believethat, but the world as a whole
100% believes that as themajority.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
Yeah.
And and we see that in ourinteraction and worship and
everything.
It's like, how do we feel what'swhat's being brought up with
inside of us, right?
And um not only how we feel, butthen how we make others feel.
And we think, oh, how I makeAndrew feel determines whether I
love Andrew or not.
So if I make you feel good aboutyourself, you feel loved.
(08:10):
And we define that as love inour culture.
But if I make you feel bad,like, oh, well, you're not
loving me.
But would that be accurate fromscripture's perspective?
No.
No.
SPEAKER_01 (08:20):
I think to give an example, I had a young adult
tell me that the more worshipsongs that a church does, the
better it makes me feel.
Wow.
And the feeling is good.
Don't get me wrong, I think Godloves for us to feel good when
we're worshiping him.
But the action is so much moreimportant than the feeling.
(08:43):
Because whether we feel good ornot, we still are supposed to
glorify and praise God.
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I want to go into the nextsegment here, um, and we're
gonna keep this going throughoutbecause this is the theme.
But basically, I want to talkabout real quickly how did we
get here?
Um, so we know the problem inour culture um is how we define
God, like how we look at him andhow that impacts us and our
(09:11):
culture.
So if we define God wrongly, orreally what I want to get into,
it's not even defining God.
Let's make it clear.
Defining God's motive.
Why did God do all that God hasdone?
And that's everything.
Why did he create the universe?
Why did he create the world?
Why did he create me?
That is the question.
(09:32):
Like if we can answer thatcorrectly, we can understand our
purpose in this world.
But if we don't understand that,that's gonna lead us into all
kinds of weird places.
And the problem is nobody'sasking the question.
Nobody's even discussing.
I mean, I've asked so manypeople, what do you think?
Why do you think God has donewhat he's done?
(09:53):
What's his motive?
And I always get the deer andheadlights look.
Like, well, I don't even knowwhere to begin with that.
That's my point.
It's like, are we failing?
Are churches failing, ourpastors failing by not answering
or asking the question and thenproviding the answer to that
question, which then impactseverything.
And it's leading people to theplace where then they have to
(10:14):
self-define.
They have to say, well, I thinkGod is this or God's doing this,
and I think, I think, I think,versus what does scripture say?
So by the time we get to the endof this show, I really want to
get into what does scripture sayso that we can define properly.
But clearly the problem is wedon't know as a culture why God
(10:34):
did all that he did.
And we come up with all kinds ofweird things.
So, how did we get here?
Um I would definitely like tostart with this.
I I've done, I'm not a historianby any stretch of the
imagination.
This is not my strong point.
Um, I'd like to get a little bitof feedback from you and see
what you think, Andrew.
But um from what I have found,we know the Reformation, uh,
(10:56):
which was with Martin Lutherwhen he came against the
Catholic Church in the 1500s,that uh it the Catholic Church
believe it was by grace andworks.
Like so man had to do somethingalong with grace to be saved.
And Martin Luther came along,and the Reformation was all
about bringing it back to uh bygrace alone.
In fact, there's it's called thefive solas.
(11:17):
It is we are, it's by faithalone, uh through grace alone,
in Christ alone, revealed inscripture alone, for the glory
of God alone.
Um, all those five things werekey to the reformation.
And then anything that leavesone of those five points aside
is outside the reformed theologymindset.
(11:39):
And just as a quick note, I wantto say this reformed theology
isn't necessarily Calvinism,even though Calvinists, people
who believe solely in God'selecting for the salvation, are
often reformed believers, butbeing a reformed believer does
not make you a Calvinist.
There's there's the difference.
And we'll discuss that maybelater.
(12:01):
And I discussed that in my showthroughout also in other
episodes.
But I wanted to set the stage,and then that was in the 1500s,
and then somewhere along theline in the 1700s, from what I
read, the uh the seed for theprosperity gospel started to
take effect.
And these were these were minor,basically where you had churches
that were dwindling, losing uhmembers in their congregation.
(12:26):
And the reformation messagereally preaches the wrath of God
and the inability of manstrongly, so that we can embrace
the grace of God, all that Goddoes.
But that message doesn't gowell.
People don't like to respond tothat.
So what happens is we startgiving a message that tickles
the ear and we start preachingthe God of love, uh, and we
(12:48):
start to leave wrath out, ourinabilities out, and what we
have to offer or what we can tryto do.
And that has slowly built intoour culture over the past two,
three hundred years to wherewe've now come to the prosperity
gospel age that is heavilyimpacting our society.
And we want to I want to talkabout that a little bit today
(13:10):
about where do we see that inevery area of our lives.
So, what's your thought?
Did you do any study on that?
Did you look into that?
And what have you found?
SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
Similar to you, um, kind of that same timeline, but
it was hard to get like adefinitive answer on the
timeline or who or what reallystarted the shift.
What I would say is that prettymuch unanimously, I saw online
in the late 1900s, early 2000s,we saw that big shift and we saw
(13:41):
it really take over.
So whatever was planted sproutedtremendously in the last 30, 40,
50 years towards this nowlove-centered, man-centered
faith versus what we saw before.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
Yeah.
Um, what do you think happenedparticularly, maybe, or and is
there anything that sticks outto you that made faith more
about personal experience thanGod's glory from what I found,
it was hard to get a singularanswer on that.
SPEAKER_01 (14:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (14:13):
But you do see that, right?
Without a doubt.
You see it in everybody, you seeit everywhere.
Um that our personal experiencehas become elevated.
Uh, and again, I think even theway worship is in church, what
we call worship, and I wouldargue that it's probably not as
much worship as we think it is.
I think it's more entertainment,it's more emotion-driven.
(14:36):
Like we have these worshipbands, we have these stages and
light and settings, um, even themusic being picked to go with
the message, like everything isto set the stage of the heart.
And and I've heard pastors saythis is like, oh, worship is
about preparing you, you know,setting you up.
And I'm like, well, isn'tworship supposed to be the
(14:57):
overflow of the heart?
Isn't it supposed to be whatcomes out of us because we can't
contain it?
And then is it worship onlymusic?
What's your thought on that?
How do young adults see that?
SPEAKER_01 (15:08):
Uh, we definitely see worship as primarily music.
I think it's just ourgeneration.
We are so used to all theseincredible worship songs on
Spotify and Apple Music,wherever you guys listen to it.
Um, we're also used to justmusic that makes us feel good.
We don't sing a lot of the oldhymns.
We don't go back to theseoriginal songs that were so
(15:30):
profound in truth as much as weought to.
Um, but that's, I think, justsadly where our generation has
has come from.
I also don't think that we'vehad great leaders to really show
us the correct path, the correcttruth when it comes to what
worship is.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
I think one of the things we see throughout
scripture is statements likepeople went away worshiping.
And, you know, they worshipedGod and uh Abraham falling down
or John falling down as thoughdead, and just people bowing
down before the Lord and thatbeing called worship.
Yep.
They didn't fall down and startsinging a song with their face
(16:11):
to the ground.
That that was not theperspective.
You have to say, well, then whatwas it right there?
It was the reverence and all ofGod in the moment.
Yeah.
He was revealing himself to man,and man's only response was to
worship as though falling dead.
It was our proper response to aholy God.
Yes.
That's what real worship is.
(16:32):
And we've distorted it to thinkthat it's music, not saying that
singing isn't is bad.
I think there it has its placeand it's good, but we have
completely made it like that iswhat worship is.
SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
We've made that the headline.
The headline.
SPEAKER_00 (16:48):
This is it.
Praise and worship service, aswe hear it all the time.
You come in the praise andworship service this week, as if
you can't praise and worship Godotherwise.
And it's the reverence of who Heis, and we're not experiencing
God, I don't think, on a levelthat brings us to the place
where we respond to Godappropriately.
Instead, we're going to church,forcing a response and then
(17:12):
calling it worship.
But the question is, are weresponding to what we've
experienced of God, or are wedoing something in hopes that
something will happen?
Or are we looking at it assomething we offer to God?
SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
Yeah, let me answer that.
I think that what we hear is thefeeling.
So to give an example, have youever heard someone say, Man, I
got the goosebumps during thatworship service?
You know, we we focus so much onwhen something feels good that
when we get the goosebumps orwhen we feel incredibly
(17:45):
overjoyed, we think that that'sjust God.
And sometimes it is.
But I also think sometimes it'sjust because it's a really
good-sounding worship service.
I think what we need to get backto is the root, and that is the
word of God.
SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:00):
When we look at the truths that are intertwined with
these songs, that is what shouldbring us to glorify and worship
and praise God, not the feeling,not so much the sound.
That's good, and I think Godlikes that.
But the truth of it is whatshould bring us to glorify Him.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Yeah.
So what do you think?
Um, let's move into the resultshere.
Um, what do you think the actualresults are of people?
And I want to talk about on anindividual basis.
Yeah.
I mean, I know you you mentor alot of people, you talk to a lot
of people one-on-one.
How many of the problems thatyou see in young adults' lives
(18:40):
are a result of misidentifyingGod's will, God's purpose, God's
motive for them and for thisworld?
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
I see it all the time.
The biggest question I get, andthis legitimately might be the
number one question I get fromall young adults, is what is my
calling?
And that is the biggest strugglethat I think all young adults uh
deal with, whether it's where doI work, how do I spread the
gospel, who do I spread thegospel to, how do I do it?
(19:12):
There's so many questions andthey don't know the answers.
So yeah, there's a plethora ofthings that we just don't
understand as young adults.
And sadly, unless they're beingmentored by someone that really
has that wise understanding, theaverage church on a Sunday
morning doesn't give you thatkind of information.
SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
Yeah.
They're I think they're comingat it, and I I I even adults, I
mean, anybody I speak to is howdoes God benefit me?
You know, we have to go back tothe root cause and the root sin
is that we all have this in usum, that we want to be God.
Now, a lot of people are gonnasay, No, I don't, Harry.
(19:52):
I I don't I don't want to beGod.
I'm like, Yeah, you do.
That's the root of all sin.
I will be like the most highGod.
Every sin comes from that place.
That's what Satan's fall was.
He saw his beauty and he pridelifted up and he wanted to be
like the most high God.
And then he deceived Eve andsaying, you know, did God not
(20:13):
really say this?
And he knows the day you eat ofthe fruit of the tree of good
and evil that you will be likehim.
Yes.
Right?
That is the root.
All sin is rooted right there.
We we want to live for our will,our desires, not his, which
means whether we speak it ornot, we are saying in our
(20:36):
actions, I'm my own God.
That's what our sin tells us allthe time.
And I think right there is theproblem.
And then we formulate a God inour own image.
We don't, we aren't, we don'tsee ourselves as formed in his
image.
We say, oh, okay, uh, well, Iwant this or I want to do that,
or I think love is a feeling,and I should feel this way.
(21:00):
And and here's where I reallywant to get to is that then we
define God's motive as love.
This has been the number one,it's either been I don't know,
or it's his love.
And you know why?
I think John 3.16 rings in theirears.
It's the verse that just, it'sthere.
It's been for God's so love theworld, for God's so love the
world.
How many times has that beenbeaten in?
(21:21):
But if you misdefine love, thenall of a sudden love is for you.
I'm the world, I'm in the world,and he loves me, and he
sacrificed his son for me, andit becomes all about me.
Do you see that?
We can't see it any other waybecause we've already defined
the word from our own terms, notfrom the biblical terms.
(21:43):
Now, the statement is true forGod so loved the world, but that
is not his motive in all things.
Uh, I've taught this on manyoccasions, that his motive in
all things is his glory.
Yes.
Now, that doesn't belittle hislove, it doesn't negate it, it
actually is intertwined with it.
His glory is much more vast thanhis love.
(22:06):
Um, before I answer that, andI've answered this before, but
how would you define glory?
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
Glory is to me the exaltation, the worth due to
God, to Jesus Christ.
It is the outward expressiontowards God, giving him all that
he is due.
SPEAKER_00 (22:27):
Yeah.
So, and I think just to beclear, it's not our outward
expression.
It's his outward expression,right?
So he, when he is glorifyinghimself, he is expressing,
revealing to us all that he is.
And he is, yes, he's love, buthe's much more than that.
Correct.
(22:47):
Right?
He does all things in his love,but he's also just, merciful,
gracious.
He pours out wrath, um, and allthese things.
You can go down all theattributes of God, and he is,
it's true that he's all thosethings.
You know, I one of the examplesI like to give is heaven and
hell.
And so many people see it asheaven is me with God forever,
(23:09):
and hell is me separated fromGod forever.
That's not biblical.
You know, Ephesians 2 says thatwe were all children of wrath.
We were all like there wasnobody who was never not under
wrath.
Hell is eternal wrath.
Yeah, so God is very much inhell, but it is the attribute of
God that is just, dealing withman's sin who was unrepentive,
(23:33):
and his wrath is poured out thenfor all eternity.
So in his love, he's just.
You see that?
Like he's lovingly just.
We we want to fair God.
You know what I'm saying?
Well, how is that fair?
Or, you know, what about thosewho never had the opportunity to
accept Christ?
Is that fair?
Um, what's fair is that we allget to go to hell and be under
(23:54):
wrath for eternity.
That's fair.
Um, but he's merciful.
And Romans 9, I believe it is,is that he for his own purposes
shows compassion, whom he showspassion.
He rose up, we told he rose upPharaoh to show his power, and
that there are those who areunder wrath so that the children
(24:15):
of righteousness may know hisglory, may know his power, for
his power to reveal himself.
He raises people up who areunder and stay under wrath.
Now, people, God doesn't placethem there.
He doesn't like, oh, let me putthese people under wrath.
They are under wrath, they'realready there.
He leaves them there.
(24:35):
Yeah.
The question is, why does heremove us from there?
You know, it it's I've said thisbefore the question of uh people
ask all the time, why do badthings happen to good people?
But what did Jesus say?
What did Jesus say about who'sgood?
None of us.
None of us.
He said, Who's good?
There's none that are good, butGod.
You know, none are good.
(24:56):
We all deserve wrath.
So when we see that, it'ssupposed to be a picture of wow,
I deserve that.
Not how is that fair for them?
They should get what I get, butwe have to stop and realize you
don't deserve what you got.
SPEAKER_01 (25:13):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
That's what should generate worship.
That goes back to the place.
What is it's the reverence andawe of God of getting what you
don't deserve.
SPEAKER_01 (25:22):
Yeah, that love and grace is what should bring us to
glory.
Yeah.
Bring us, bring us to glorifyHim, is the correct way to say
that.
SPEAKER_00 (25:30):
Yeah.
So I think the result is, youknow, we live in a world where
people are going aroundself-defining God.
They aren't looking atScripture, they aren't asking
what Scripture says about whatdoes God say about Himself, and
it has a lot to say about whatGod has to say about Himself.
(25:50):
You know, one of the things I'velearned early on, I don't know
if you've ever heard this, uh,the Bible, basic instructions
before leaving earth.
Do you ever hear that?
No.
Now I don't know where it camefrom or who came up with it.
But you know what that isbasically saying, those
instructions are for me toprepare me for heaven.
And I I have learned since I'vebeen teaching for the past five
(26:11):
years now, uh, in my studies, Iwas like, wow, scripture is
anything but instructions for usbefore leaving earth.
It is about the revelation ofGod.
Yeah.
He is revealing himself throughhis word so that we can see him
and his worth and all of who heis, so that we can magnify him
(26:32):
in our worthlessness.
It's instructions.
There are commands there for us,but those commands are not there
because we can achieve them.
Those commands are there to showus our inabilities, that we
can't achieve them.
When Jesus says, for instance,be holy as your Father in heaven
is holy, can you do that?
I cannot.
Neither can I.
And anybody who looks at thatshould be honest with themselves
(26:52):
and be like, I don't have thatone.
But I think what most people do,they look at that and say, oh,
it's not about being holy.
It's about attempting.
That's what God is doing.
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
We're going to fail miserably.
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
Fail miserably, you know, and I'm like, no way.
I was like, the law, Paul toldtells us, the law was given as a
guardian until the seed shouldcome, which is Jesus Christ.
That the law suppresses us, likeit was showing us our inability.
That was what the Jews gotwrong.
They said, like, I think of therich young ruler.
Uh I think this is a beautifulstatement uh that happens.
(27:24):
If anybody knows the story, thisthis rich young ruler comes to
Jesus and he says, Lord, whatmust I do to have eternal life?
I love it.
It's a great question.
He's asking, how?
How, what must I do?
This is the how.
And this is where I think we gosideways.
And Jesus corrects the sidewaysthought.
I think people today ask that.
How do I get saved?
(27:45):
How can I go to heaven?
How can I be right with God?
Wrong question.
Wrong question.
And Jesus, and here's whathappens.
Jesus says, you know, here's thelaw, blah, blah, blah.
And he tells him the law and hesays, I've done all these since
my youth.
And he says, Oh, you want to beperfect?
Go and sell all that you haveand come and follow after me.
And he goes away sorrowful.
Now, at that moment, he thenturns to his disciples and
(28:08):
Peter's standing there, and hesays, It is hard for a rich man
to be saved.
So it's easier for a camel to gothrough the eye of a needle than
for a rich man to be saved.
And then Peter's response is soimportant.
Peter goes, Well, then Lord, whocan be saved?
So, how do you think most peoplein our culture read that right
there?
What do you think their thoughtprocess is when they hear that?
(28:31):
Is it materialism that's theproblem?
Is that how most people look atthat?
Probably.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Although it's really a heart posture.
It's an ability to actuallyfollow Christ.
Um, but yeah, I think the morethat we have, the harder it is
to give it up because we're soattached to the world.
SPEAKER_00 (28:49):
So this was one of the things that blew me away.
And I gotta be honest, I justrecently did this study and I
was as guilty as anybody else,and I saw what seemed to be like
I saw Peter as somebody who lefteverything and followed Jesus,
but that materialism wasn't thephysical, but it was in the
heart.
Like I'm holding on to things ofthis world.
And that's what Jesus waspointing to, and that's what
(29:12):
Peter was saying, but that's notwhat was happening.
Uh I had to do a little bitdeeper dive, and it always goes
back to culture and context andeverything like that.
And in the Old Testament, uh,riches were the fruit or the
evidence of righteousness.
God blessed those who werefaithful to him.
You think of Abraham, think ofJob, David, Solomon, you go down
(29:33):
the list of the patriarchs inthe Old Testament and promises.
God promised, hey, if you obeymy commands, I will make you
fruitful and multiply, and Iwill bless the land, I will
bless you, and you will haveriches, and your storehouses
will be full, right?
So that was Peter's perception.
So he was saying if this man whois righteous, who has lived the
(29:55):
law and has the evidence ofGod's favor on him, and if he's
not saved, then who can besaved?
So he was asking the rightquestion.
It wasn't about materialism inas in a negative sense.
It was actually aboutmaterialism in a positive sense.
Yeah.
Very different than because why?
We've been taught our materialpossessions are wrong.
And I would like to point outthat is a prosperity gospel
(30:16):
message because the prosperitygospel teaches this you give so
that God blesses.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (30:23):
But the result of that is that the leadership or
the pastors of those prosperitygospel churches prosper.
You don't.
All right.
So we've heard that message somany times.
Physical prosperity is not bad.
It is actually favor of God.
It's a blessing of God.
And it's been distorted.
And again, there's yet anotherresult of where it's been
(30:44):
distorted.
What Jesus then says, I want topoint out is he takes away the
how.
It's not about materialism.
It's not about any of that.
What Jesus says, you know, withman, this is impossible, but
with God, all things arepossible.
That word right there takes awaythe attempt.
He says, impossible.
That word is, Jesus, I don'tthink randomly says words.
(31:08):
I think everything Jesus says isvery purposeful.
And we can look at it and say,okay, this is coming from the
mouth of Jesus.
There has to be somethingimportant that he's saying here.
And when he uses the wordimpossible, he takes away any
possibility of how.
There is no how do you getsaved?
The question is, why do you getsaved in the first place?
What is it about God that he'sdoing?
And Jesus said, with God allthings are possible, that God is
(31:31):
doing things that are possiblethat there are no hows to
explain.
Yeah.
Would you agree with that?
I agree.
And I think if we couldunderstand that as a people,
that God is working in us for areason, not how we do what we
do.
You have nothing to offer to it.
Your how falls short.
You can't be holy as your fatherin heaven is holy.
You're all of God's commandsshow us that you know, that rich
(31:52):
young ruler went away sorrowful.
Was it really possible for himto sell all that he had and come
and follow Jesus?
Some would say, Yeah.
I'm like, so was he supposed tocome butt naked, sell his
clothes too, and literally comewith nothing?
You know, the reality is he'scoming with something.
And even Peter later says, like,Lord, look, we've left all and
(32:13):
come and followed after you.
And Jesus' response was, Nobodyhas.
Nobody's left everything andfollowed after me.
Um, so it really then gets intothe why.
Why did God do what he does did?
And what is God revealing abouthimself that's far more than
just love?
What's your thought on that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:33):
Um, I would certainly agree as far as
everything that you just said.
Um, one of the scriptures thatcame to mind was John 6.
I had to look it up.
John 6, 44, but it says, No onecan come to me unless the Father
who sent me draws him.
And it it makes me think of theyoung ritualer of we can try our
hardest, and we will not be ableto pursue Christ if the Father
(32:54):
doesn't draw us.
We don't have that innateability.
Yeah.
Um, but can you repeat thatquestion one more time?
Um Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:02):
So it it was really along the lines of we're getting
into now what's the real motiveof God?
You know, what is God revealingabout himself beyond love?
SPEAKER_01 (33:15):
Well, I know the real motive.
I don't know how to answer thequestion.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (33:19):
But he is revealing something about himself that
love should point to.
I think if I'm getting thequestion right, is that God is
pointing to his glory, to whatshould be brought about when we
feel his love, when weexperience his presence, when we
get these different aspects ofhim, it should all bring back to
(33:40):
glory.
SPEAKER_00 (33:40):
Yeah.
So um I I just did a recent showon the woman at the well in John
4.
Okay.
John chapter 4 was the woman atthe well.
And Jesus actually says what thefather's looking for.
Uh he says, the father islooking for those who will
worship in truth and spirit.
And I was like, oh, well, thereit is.
(34:00):
This is what the father'slooking for.
This is what he's doing.
He's he's looking for this.
Now, again, it could be lookedat as God is giving us the
option to choose.
Again, I think a lot of peoplewill say that, oh, we have to
choose to worship in truth andspirit.
Um, but again, I think thatloses context that God is
creating, he's self-glorifyinghimself.
SPEAKER_01 (34:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:22):
We don't have it within ourselves to glorify God.
Remember, God is holy andperfect and true.
Anything we offer that's lessthan perfect does not glorify
God.
Correct.
He has to do something to makethat right.
Jesus glorified God perfectly.
Um, he never sinned, he neverdid anything wrong.
What God is doing is, I believe,you think of this woman at the
(34:46):
well, real quick, uh, because Ijust did the teaching on this,
but she came to the well in themiddle of the day, shameful,
isolated, alone, uh, because ofher sins and everything else.
She was an outcast of culture.
And Jesus was already there atthe well waiting for her.
It wasn't a divine appointmentfor him as much as it was for
her.
He had to go through Samaria,scripture says, and he was there
(35:07):
waiting for her.
She wasn't seeking him.
He looked for her, he sought herout and found her.
And it was through his commandsthat he started to reveal her
inabilities, he revealed hersin, and then he revealed his
grace that pointed to God'sglory.
And what what he did was hepointed out her sin, her
(35:28):
shamefulness, but at the exactsame time revealed his grace,
his love for her.
And she didn't say a prayer.
She didn't like say, Lord, comeinto my heart.
He didn't break down this deeptheological thing.
She didn't have to knowsomething.
She was utterly and completelytransformed when she met the
Messiah right there at the well.
When he said, I who you speakto, I am.
(35:49):
That's what he says in theGreek, I am.
Uh most of the Englishtranslations use uh I am he.
Yes.
But it just says, I am.
So he's making a God statementthere.
And what this woman's responsewas was beautiful.
She runs back to the town, sheleaves her water dog, she goes,
and that was worship.
Right there was worship.
Her reverence and all of Godproduced a running, not away
(36:13):
from God, but an overflow of joyof who God was.
And what she brought to the townwas nothing of herself.
She was still that same broken,sinful, pathetic, isolated
woman, but now had a joy comingout of her that was
unexplainable.
And this society, this communitysaw that and they were attracted
(36:35):
to that.
They were no longer looking ather shame and her sin, but they
couldn't explain the joy.
So then what did they do?
She says, Come and see the onewho should said everything, he
told me everything about myself.
And they came and saw.
They weren't drawn by her sin,they were drawn by her joy,
which was true worship.
(36:55):
Jesus produced in her what shecouldn't produce in herself.
And he produced it in her byrevealing who he was and who God
was in him.
And then that produced a joythat pointed back to him.
And that was the beauty, is likeJohn Piper, I've said this so
many times, again, God is mostglorified in us when we are most
satisfied in him.
(37:16):
Yes.
And that satisfaction producesexaltation, praise, worship in
the sense that this becomesworship.
Speaking about him, talkingabout him, living for him is all
an expression of his greatness.
I do what I do because he'sworthy, not because I'm perfect.
And all I keep offering is myimperfect, but my heart is set
(37:40):
on his worthiness, and thatbecomes the worship.
And it's what he did, not what Idid.
I'm only offering to him what heproduced in me.
And that brings glory to him.
That brings glory to him.
It it shows that he's revealingthe vastness of his attributes,
that he brings dead men to life.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
Can I so with with Romans, it's one of the
scriptures that you had writtendown, actually, but I think what
she experienced is what a lot ofbelievers experience when they
first feel that draw from theFather, where she experienced
that from him and through himand to him are all things.
Yeah.
She experienced that in thatmoment.
And when whenever you asksomeone to give them their
(38:22):
story, their story often, in myeyes, doesn't reflect a
self-centered gospel.
It actually shows the opposite.
But the way we think and what wesay when that question is asked
is often a self-centered gospel.
So when you ask someone to givethem their story, they'll
normally tell you that they wereat the lowest level.
They were at the worst point oftheir life and God met them
(38:47):
there.
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:47):
So it was nothing they did.
In fact, it should have been thelast point or the least amount
of time that God should have metthem there because they were
doing nothing to earn it, todeserve it.
And that is the true gospelright there.
They couldn't have earned it.
They didn't do anything.
But when most people give theirtestimony, it often is I was at
my worst and God met me there.
SPEAKER_00 (39:08):
Oh, very much so.
And again, I think the problemreally sets in not before
somebody gets saved, but oftenafter.
SPEAKER_01 (39:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
So, you know, I've thought about this on many
occasions with uh the debatebetween Arminianism and
Calvinism.
You know, is it us choosing oris it God electing?
And and we get stuck in thisplace of the how one gets saved.
But at the moment of salvation,you you know, I know it was for
me, I'm sure it was for you.
I wasn't thinking about the how.
SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
I didn't care how.
SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
I just felt the joy.
Exactly.
I felt the connection.
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
Yes.
God did something, God revealedhimself in some way that
impacted us.
He influenced us.
I I've said this before.
God's influence is perfect.
So, for instance, if you meet meon the street for the very first
time, my influence or my impacton you is going to determine
(40:02):
what you do with me, right?
Like maybe, maybe I'm a goodperson, but I have foot and
mouth disease, which by the wayis true.
And I say a lot of stupid thingsin my first interactions.
Maybe it's because I'm nervous,or maybe it's just because I'm a
ding-dong or whatever it is.
And I have a tendency to turnpeople off, but that's not a
true representation of who I am.
So my influence is pretty poor,you know, it on that level.
(40:25):
My influence is more with thosewho stuck it out with me, learn
who I am.
And they're like, oh, Harry'sheart is actually really
accurate.
Yeah, thank you.
Um, I wish I could fix thatfirst part, but that's the way
God made me and it keeps mehumble.
You're working on it.
I'm working on it.
But you know what?
That's all I can do.
I'm I'm not perfect.
But God, on the other hand, thisis what I think people miss.
(40:50):
Sorry about that, my phone'sringing.
Um, this is what people miss isthat um God's influence is
perfect.
You know, there's when Godintervenes in our lives and he
shows up.
I think of Paul on the road toDamascus and Jesus revealed
himself right there.
His influence was perfect.
(41:11):
Yes.
You could say Paul had a choice,but did Paul have a choice?
Because when you meet the risenLord, you're gonna respond
because you're his createdbeing.
You were created for hispurpose, for his pleasure, and
you're gonna respond in a waythat's appropriate to him.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Correct.
SPEAKER_00 (41:28):
Right?
And that's what I believehappens at a genuine salvation
when we're born again or bornfrom above, is we are now
responding appropriately toGod's revelation in our lives.
We aren't asking how, how is itirrelevant?
Because with with man, it'simpossible.
Correct.
But with God, all things arepossible, and he's doing what's
impossible.
And it's not how is God doingit?
(41:50):
The question is, why is Goddoing it?
Because I'm not worthy of it.
When God reveals his grace to meor to you, the first thing that
happens is grace reveals ourinability, it reveals our
worthlessness and his worthsimultaneously.
That in that moment, why so manypeople throughout the scripture,
when they saw Jesus or they sawGod, they saw the angel of the
(42:13):
Lord, fell down on their face isbecause they realized their
worthlessness in the midst ofhis worth.
And the only true response wasto fall as though dead.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:23):
That was worship.
That was what the heartgenerated.
It's what happened.
Because what did God say toMoses?
If I reveal my glory to you,what would happen?
You'd fall dead, right?
You'll die.
Yeah.
I can't reveal all my glory toyou.
You can't handle it.
So even, and I've experiencedthis, even partial glory.
When he veils himself, I almostcan't handle it.
(42:45):
You know, I think of uh a story,uh Dale Moody.
You ever hear of Moody?
I don't.
So he was a great evangelist,um, what, 100, 200 years ago or
whatever.
He was uh had a church he waswitnessing and to a thousand
kids in Chicago, and then thegreat Chicago fire happened.
And the story goes, he leftChicago.
Um, he was distraught because hehad just given a sermon in
(43:07):
Chicago and he had mentioned thegospel, and he says, if you
would like to respond to thegospel, come back next week and
I'll finish.
And then the great Chicago Firehappened.
He never got to do it, itdestroyed his heart.
He goes to New York to raisemoney, to rebuild the church,
and God broke him there.
God wrecked his heart rightthere on the streets of New York
City.
And I love this.
He actually said, the grace andpower of God came upon him so
(43:31):
strongly, he asked God torelent.
Like it was just too much.
God, stop.
I can't, I can't, I can't, it'stoo much glory, it's too much
grace.
That's what grace does.
When you are interacting withGod, it it destroys you and
brings you life simultaneously.
Yeah.
And God, to ask God to relent ofhis grace, think about that.
Have you ever experienced God onsuch a level where you ask him
(43:55):
to relent?
Back off, stop.
I can't take it anymore.
I'm about to die here.
Right?
That's amazing.
That's crazy.
That's crazy.
And I think that's somethingthat we should all want.
But that is God revealing hisgreatness, revealing his glory,
and that's what he wants to do.
SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Even with Moses, when he came down, he his face
shone so brightly.
Yeah.
You know, I can't even imaginewhat that would look like today.
But we have certainly seenpeople when they get transformed
and renewed by the Father, theylook different.
They talk and act different.
SPEAKER_00 (44:29):
Yeah.
So I I a verse I want to readfrom Isaiah 48, 9, 11, and we'll
move into this last segmenthere.
Um, it says, For my name's sake,I defer my anger, for the sake
of my praise, I restrain it foryou, that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, butnot as silver.
I have tried you in the furnaceof affliction for my own sake,
(44:53):
for my own sake.
He says it twice.
I do it, for how should my namebe profaned?
My glory I will not give toanother.
Right there.
And there are many scriptureslike that.
Ephesians 1, 5 to 6.
Uh, we're talking about to thepraise of his glorious grace.
Uh Romans 11, 36 says, uh, forfrom him and through him and to
(45:16):
him are all things.
To him be glory forever.
Amen.
Again and again and again, we'retalking about it's for glory.
Habakkuk 2.14, for the earthwill be filled with the
knowledge of the glory of theLord as the waters cover the
sea.
God is about his glory, and theaffliction he pours out is for
our refining, and he says that'sfor his glory, to humble us and
(45:37):
to make himself greater.
Like he's not going to letanybody else take his glory from
him.
Now that sounds suppressing,like, hey, he's he's destroying
us for his own selfish benefit.
No, no, he's he's doing it forour benefit.
What he's desiring is worshipand truth and spirit.
Yes.
And that truth and spirit, thetruth is you are unworthy.
The spirit, then, makes itpossible for you to worship
(46:00):
where you couldn't worshipbefore.
Yeah.
To have reverence and awe.
And that is where the differenceis between those who are saved,
who who accept and embrace andworship God for the grace given
to them that exposes their sin.
And then when God's word revealssin to those who don't want to
accept it, those are not saved,right?
They're still living in theflesh.
(46:22):
And we all once were in thatposition.
So that's the point.
We know that God, what he'srevealing, his real motive, is
his glory.
And, you know, I think that's abroad perspective.
Now, the last segment here ishow should we respond?
How do we get to a place in oursociety where we can teach
people, show people, and evenourselves where we respond
(46:43):
appropriately?
How can believers today start torecenter their faith on God's
glory?
What would you say you would dowith uh the young adults that
you lead?
SPEAKER_01 (46:52):
Uh, I ask them to look at the scripture
themselves.
So stop, stop listening andbelieving everything that the
pastors at their churches say.
We need to be people that diveinto God's word.
And if we don't do that, we'regoing to believe every doctrine,
every theological, you know,thing that someone in our circle
(47:12):
says, especially our pastors,they have a huge influence on
us.
So I tell them don't takeeverything that you hear as
truth, as fact, look into it.
That is the biggest reason andproblem that I think we have
today is that we are sodependent on the people that
quote unquote do the researchthemselves that we don't do it
(47:33):
ourselves.
And that leads us astray.
That's why we think that aman-centered faith is real.
That's why we think that we haveall this ability to do things on
our own when the Bible is clearthat we can't.
We're we're evil, we're sinful,our nature is sin.
SPEAKER_00 (47:49):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:49):
So that's the number one thing that I say is I want
people to get into the wordthemselves.
SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:55):
And that starts primarily through discipleship.
SPEAKER_00 (47:58):
Yeah.
I uh I've pointed at John 14,15, and 16 a lot, those chapters
where Jesus says, Ask anythingin my name, um, and I will do
it, so that the Father will beglorified in the Son, and then
He says, so that you're uh thatyou may be fruitful, and then
thirdly, so that your joy may befull.
Our joy is the overflow of hisglory, his expression in our
(48:19):
lives.
And the fruit that we're askingfor is to live lives that it
that it that come in contactwith that, so that we can live
in the will of God, not againstthe will of God.
But we have to recognize that weare constantly living against
the will of God, which is sin.
Anything that is outside thewill of God is sin.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe adultery or theft or murder.
(48:39):
It's anything that is contraryto his will.
And that's where the questionis: what's my purpose in life?
How do I live the will of God inmy life?
The will of God is that he'sseeking those who will worship
in truth and spirit.
And he that that is producedfrom the joy that Jesus wants to
give you, the fullness of joy,that you are who you are, where
you are, when you are, becauseGod designed it that way.
(49:01):
You know, we're looking for ourpurpose outside of ourselves,
but your life is his purpose.
Yeah, like we have to stop doingthat and worship in truth and
spirit where we are, not wherewe think we're supposed to be.
Yeah, you know, and again, Ithink that's the point.
Like we hear the prosperitygospel all the time of like God
wants to bless you, God wants todo this as if God can't, right?
(49:22):
But you have to do this.
What do you have to do?
You have to give, you have toserve, you have to humble
yourself, and you have to, youhave to, you have to, you have
to.
It's the house and it's theman-centeredness.
But the gospel says, no,surrender.
It's about surrender.
It's about meeting God rightwhere you are and accepting it
and abandoning everything andsay, God, I love you for who you
are, where I am, with what Ihave, and allowing joy to
(49:45):
overflow through your situation,not because of your situation.
SPEAKER_01 (49:50):
Yeah.
Romans 12, it says, I appeal toyou therefore, brothers, by the
mercies of God to present yourbodies as a living sacrifice
holy and acceptable to God,which is your spiritual worship.
I want to highlight by themercies of God.
Yeah.
Because if it was not for hismercy over our life, over our
sin, then we would not be ableto do that.
(50:10):
We would not be able to presentour bodies as a living sacrifice
holy and acceptable to him.
Yeah.
We would not be able to havethat be our spiritual worship if
it was not for his mercy.
SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
That's right.
And again, what 1 Corinthians 1031 says, so whatever you eat or
drink or whatever you do, do allto the glory of God.
Yes.
Everything.
Like he's wrapping it all upinto a nice tight ball.
He's like, it's everything youdo.
What's your purpose in life?
Do it to the glory of God,whatever you're doing.
Yep.
That's the smallest of things tothe largest of things.
Stop looking for this grandcalling.
(50:42):
I believe what happens is whenwe start expressing God's
greatness in all that we do, thepath gets laid out before us.
When you worship God in truthand spirit, he will lay out a
path for you that will take youwherever he wants to go.
Stop looking like the rich youngruler to the evidence of the
spirit.
Stop looking for the wealth orthe prestige or the stage or the
(51:06):
situations or the job, as iflike that's the evidence that
you're living your purpose inlife.
SPEAKER_01 (51:11):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:12):
You know, your purpose in life could be to be
in prison like Paul was.
Your purpose in life could be togo to the cross like Jesus did.
Your purpose in life could be tobe beheaded.
Your purpose in life might be tosit in a room in a basement and
do a podcast like we're doingright now.
It's who knows?
And I'm not saying this is myonly purpose.
My purpose is to not onlyworship God in truth and spirit,
(51:33):
but to lead others to that placetoo.
And that's all of our purpose,to go into the world, making
disciples, teaching them andshowing them the things that
Christ has shown us.
And that's what He's shown me.
It's what He's shown you is thatI want to help people get to a
place where they can havegenuine joy in all situations,
whether somebody's sick anddying, broken and hurt, lost and
(51:56):
unsaved, that you can rejoiceand praise God in all of it.
SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
I think that also proves, though, that God's main
motive being glorifying himselfis good for us.
Yeah.
We we, as we were in our sin, wecould never be fully satisfied.
There was nothing that could.
That's why we in our own lives,even as we're saved, we go to
one thing to another because weget bored of something or we
(52:21):
don't like something anymore.
But when God saved us, he nowgives us an ability to be truly
satisfied by glorifying him, byby giving ourselves up to him.
And that is something we had noability to do before, which is
why glorifying him actually iswhat is best for us.
And John Piper, why he said it,is because we are satisfied in
(52:43):
him.
SPEAKER_00 (52:43):
Yeah.
I think that's the beauty of it.
Like I hope everybody hears thattoday, that God is revealing
himself to this world.
God so loved the world that hegave his only begotten son.
He made himself known to theworld through his son Jesus
Christ.
That's the idea there.
(53:04):
He already chose to revealhimself to this world, and God
is most and fully glorified atthe cross.
We said we see the fullness ofGod, the fullness of his glory
in the face of Jesus Christ.
And we see that at the cross,where his full wrath, full
justness, full mercy, fullgrace, and his full love is
poured out simultaneously at thecross.
(53:25):
It is like the lampstand or thelighthouse in the midst of all
of history that points backwardand forward to God's glory.
You don't see it anywhere elsemore on display than in that
moment.
And we live in the joy of thatlight, pointing back in history,
saying that's where God's glorywas fully revealed.
(53:48):
I think it's beautiful.
You know, when we sit when wehear the question of why did
Jesus have to die on the cross,because he wanted to express the
greatness of his beauty.
God is nowhere seen morebeautiful than at that place in
time, revealing all of who he isto us that we would worship him
(54:08):
for that, that he is givinghimself to us.
This is not us.
This is not about us.
This is about him.
What it generates in us is himglorifying himself back to
himself.
We are the canvas on which hepaints it, brings dead men to
life.
And that's the point where theevidence of that.
So we have to live our livesthat way.
(54:28):
And I think our ministries andwhat we do, evangelism and all
of it, becomes effective when welet go of the result and just
enjoy him for who he is and whathe does.
It's his word that brings peopleto life.
It's his glory that he'srevealing.
And we we are the evidence ofthat.
We're his fruit.
We're so worried about our ownfruit, but we are his fruit.
(54:51):
He produced that.
SPEAKER_01 (54:52):
And I would also say that when we do give that up to
him, we end up seeing the fruitanyway.
Yeah.
We often do.
I'm in discipleship with someonefrom my young adults group right
now, and I am getting the joyright now of seeing him getting
the revelation of God's glory.
It is being revealed to himcurrently as we meet on a
bi-weekly basis.
(55:13):
And it is a beautiful thing.
And I think that the more thatyou guys start to understand the
true motive of God, the morethat it's actually going to
bring joy and satisfaction toyou.
SPEAKER_00 (55:23):
Absolutely.
Awesome.
Um, you have anything else youwant to add before we close up
today?
I think that's good for me.
Awesome.
I appreciate it.
All right.
Do you want to close us inprayer?
Yes, sir.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (55:34):
Heavenly Father, you are just so good.
God, you have in such a waycrafted this world and us in
such a beautiful manner.
And God, it is such a beautywhen we get to be a part of your
masterful plan to themasterpiece that is your glory,
(55:57):
um, your love, Lord.
And while we struggle with hardquestions of, I think, deep
theology over hundreds and eventhousands of years, Lord, we
need your spirit to come andhelp us.
So, Lord, would you help us tocontinue to search your
scripture, continue to divedeeper to know the real truth?
(56:19):
Lord, we don't want to be ledastray.
You warn about it all the timein scripture, about false
doctrine, false teachers, Lord.
Would you help us help usdiscern when something's off?
Help us discern when somethingis untruthful, God.
We we need you on our own will.
We are so far from being able todo the things that you want us
(56:40):
to.
We're so far from being able toglorify you.
But alongside of you, with yourhelp, with your spirit, we can
do so much more.
So, Lord, we we thank you forthis topic of your true motive.
We thank you that you have beenrevealing to Harry and even
through Harry, to myself, andthrough your scripture, to be
(57:00):
able to understand that yourglory is something that is
beautiful.
It's not this narcissistic,self-centered thing that like
doesn't include us.
It actually brings satisfactionto us as we glorify you.
So thank you that we get topartake in that.
Thank you that we get to partakein your glory and and feel the
(57:21):
beauty of it, feel the weight ofit.
You are a good God and you carefor us.
You hand picked us, Lord.
So just help us.
Help us going forward to searchyour scripture, to know your
truth, and to spread yourgospel.
We love you, Lord.
It's in your name we pray.
Amen.
SPEAKER_00 (57:38):
Amen.
Thank you for joining us today,Andrew.
My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01 (57:41):
Thank you, Mary.
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