Who Is Jesus—and How Can I Know I’m His?

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What does it really mean that Jesus is the Word who was with God and is God? How can we reconcile our theological understanding with persistent feelings of spiritual darkness? And perhaps most importantly, how can we know if our faith is genuine?

These questions aren't just intellectual exercises—they touch the very heart of what it means to follow Christ. In this special Q&A episode, Pastor Harry Behrens is joined by Pastor Donnie Garrison and youth leader Brock Bridges to tackle the real, honest questions that believers struggle with daily.

Together, they explore the mystery of Christ's divinity, acknowledging that the concept of the Trinity inherently challenges human understanding. As they discuss, this very complexity testifies to God's transcendence—if we could fully comprehend God, wouldn't that suggest a human-made deity rather than the Creator of all things?

For those feeling stuck despite believing in Jesus as the light and life, the conversation offers a powerful perspective: this struggle doesn't mean you're far from God—it often means He's inviting you deeper. The light of Jesus isn't an instant switch but more like a steady dawn that gradually illuminates your life as you continue bringing your real struggles to Him.

The discussion culminates in practical wisdom about assurance of salvation. Beyond emotional experiences, true transformation reveals itself when sin becomes uncomfortable, when you find yourself fighting against darkness rather than comfortable living in it. As Jesus said, genuine faith involves denying yourself and taking up your cross daily—not just acknowledging Christ's existence but submitting to His lordship.

If you've been wrestling with questions about your faith, this conversation offers both theological depth and practical guidance to help you grow in your relationship with Christ. Your doubts don't disqualify you—they might be the very doorway to deeper faith.

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Please visit www.chosenbydesign.net for more information on Pastor Harry’s new book, "Chosen By Design - God’s Purpose for Your Life."

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
The Gospel of John opens with a profound truth In
the beginning was the Word, andthe Word was with God and the
Word was God.
Over the past three episodes ofthe Takeaway, we've seen that
Jesus is the Eternal Wordthrough whom all things were
made, that he is the life andlight of men and that he gives
the right to become children ofGod.
These truths are the foundationof our faith, but they also

(00:31):
raise real, honest questions inthe hearts of believers today.
That's why, in this specialepisode, pastor Harry Behrens is
joined by two guests to wrestlewith the questions sent in by
listeners, questions about whoJesus is, what it means to be
born of God and how we can knowif our faith is real.
This is a chance to lean in, tolisten and to grow as we

(00:53):
explore together what it meansto truly know Christ.
Here's Pastor Harry Behrenswith today's discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hello, welcome again to the Takeaway.
I'm your host, pastor HarryBehrens, and today we're trying
something new, something Ibelieve will help us grow
together as we study God's Word.
You know, over the last threeepisodes we've laid the
foundation of John's Gospel.
We've seen that Jesus is theeternal Word, that he is life
and light and that he gives theright to become children of God.
These are powerful truths, butthey naturally raise questions,

(01:29):
questions about who Jesus reallyis, what it means to be born
again and how we can know if ourfaith is genuine.
So in this episode, we'restepping away from our usual
verse-by-verse teaching to havean open discussion around some
of those questions.
My hope is that this formatwill not only bring clarity, but
also equip you to live out thecalling God has placed on your
life to glorify Him ineverything.

(01:51):
So to help me with thisconversation, I'm joined by my
good friend, pastor DonnieGarrison, and also Brock Bridges
, who is here to help bring afresh perspective and the voice
of many young adults walking outtheir faith.
Together, we're going to tacklesome of the questions you've
sent in, and I think you'll findthem both relatable and
challenging.
So let's begin.

Speaker 3 (02:13):
So, donnie, Brock, how are you guys doing today
Doing?
Great Thanks for having us.
I'm really excited to get intothese questions, kind of get
into the mind of what might begoing on in a young adult's mind
and kind of answer some ofthose questions for us.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Awesome.
What about you, Donnie?
How are you?

Speaker 4 (02:26):
doing.
I'm doing very well.
I really appreciate you havingus on today.
I think this is a very, veryimportant topic to speak on it
is.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
I'm really excited about getting into this, brock.
What kind of things have youseen?
I mean before we get into allthis like this is why I had you
on here with the young adultswhat kind of challenges have you
seen around new believers andthe challenges of them coming to
faith and trusting in God andstuff.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I think a lot of it comes down to like
identity issues.
I think a lot of them absorbtheir identity because they're a
young adult and the world putsso much pressure on them in how
much money they're making, whatjob they have currently, what
they're doing in life, and Ithink that that just causes us
to put a schedule on ourselves,when Jesus has something
completely better and greaterfor us.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yeah, now, donnie, you work with young adults,
right, I do.
Yeah, maranatha, do you comeacross?
What kind of stuff do you comeacross?

Speaker 4 (03:17):
Well, most of the time what I come across is I
have teenagers come to me andthey ask me how do I know that
I'm saved right if I continue tostill have these desires that
are ungodly?
And I try to explain to themyou know what the Bible says
about that that it's not normalfor them, it's a normal
experience for us to stillstruggle with that.

(03:39):
But they struggle with thatbecause they feel as though they
should be, I guess, doing acertain thing and living a
certain way, and that that partof us shouldn't be there anymore
.
You know the part that desiresto do what's wrong.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, and I think we can agree too.
There is a the dynamic.
There's a very big differencebetween how children, young
adults and mature adultsunderstand the topic of
salvation.
Right, like we're all indifferent places and like I know
for me just recently had aninteraction with a young man who

(04:11):
was probably 10 years old, whounderstood.
He had clearly been told thatJesus died on the cross and he
died for our sins.
And he asked me the question hegoes, but why did he need to
die on the cross?
Which was so profound, you know?
And I thought, wow, that's areally tricky question.
It's like if I was talking toan adult, I would explain it
clearly.
We could sit there and bouncethe questions and break it down,

(04:31):
but with a child you're justlike.
I feel like you have onesentence to really relay what
you're trying to say.
I mean, would you agree withthat?
Even with young adults?
Do you feel like you have avery short window of how to
bring that across?

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, I was going to say, attention span nowadays is
not great and there's astatistic out there.
I think it's like you onlyremember 40% of what you're told
.
But I think that a lot of youngadults, just if you don't get
to the point quick, they kind oflose traction.
They're not willing to sitthere for, you know, hours on
end.
I mean some of them, you knowyou have the the 1% out there
who are willing, but, um, a lotof them want short, quick, sweet

(05:07):
answers that get to the point.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, I mean, donnie, you find the same thing.
Kids you work with.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
Yeah, I find that what really works best with them
is, uh, an illustration,something that they can, you
know, wrap their mind aroundfrom everyday life and you tie
it back into the answer so thatthey can visualize it.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah yeah, analogies are super huge.
Um, analogies really help themind of a young adult.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, so you guys think if this show goes beyond
15 minutes, we're going to losethis audience?

Speaker 3 (05:36):
Probably not If they're here, they're already
willing to commit.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, would you agree
that, whether kids, young adultsor adults, that really what
we're looking for is peopleseeking God, absolutely, people
with the heart to like I want toknow.
They're giving you thatattention, making that eye
contact.
But, yeah, I mean, we clearlydeal with people who want to

(06:01):
know but, like you said, theyhave that attention span but
they want to know, but theydon't I don't know how to really
say it they don't have thatseeking heart, they're not
willing to do the work.
Does that make sense?
You run into that a lot, brock.

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Yeah, sometimes, Sometimes there's just kind of
that vague curiosity of like, oh, let me just come in here and
see what this is about and seeif it's something I like.
And a lot of times it's thosepeople who either dive really
deep into it and they get thatheart of seeking or they just
completely say like, ah, thisisn't for me.
And I think that that vaguecuriosity can actually be turned

(06:36):
off by a lot of questions.
People who don't want to getinquisitive, people who don't
want to figure stuff out, tendsto be the people who stray away.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
Yeah, it, yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, I know my ministry.
I deal mostly with adults.
I mean even my listeners withmy podcast, I mean the bulk of
my listeners are anywhere in theage group of like 40 to 60.
And, again, that's why it'sawesome to have you guys on here
to try to tap into that youngergeneration, because we're

(07:08):
talking about real things here,things that really matter, but
we want to get that across in away that they can understand it
and apply it to their lives,which I think is probably the
biggest thing, is bringingapplication.
It's one thing to believe it,it's another thing to apply it.
Right, yeah, right.
And I think kids, more thananything, people who are still

(07:31):
in school, they got thoseinfluences probably the hardest
place to apply those things Iwould agree.
Um, so you know, I think.
With that said, I think wecould start to get into this.
So we're going to do somethinga little different.
Today we have some questionsfrom our audience based on the
first three shows that I'vereleased so far this year that
really lay the foundation of ourfaith who Jesus is, who he

(07:53):
claims to be, and all thesethings and I'm going to read
these questions.
So this is a great way for ouraudience to interact with us.
It's something our church does.
We have a small home churchgroup and we dialogue a lot,
just like I know you guys dowith Underground Church.
There's that back and forthdialogue.
It's huge, and one thing thathad always bothered me with the

(08:15):
podcast was like, where's thatdialogue?
I could sit here and assumewhat the audience wants to hear,
but it's a different thing whenwe know what the audience wants
to hear.
So we have those questionstoday and I think it's just
going to be great to break themdown.
So I want to start off with thefirst question.
It's right here.
So I get that Jesus is the Wordand that he was with God in the

(08:36):
beginning, but I guess I'mstruggling to wrap my head
around what that really means.
Like, is he God or is he justkind of like God?
I'm confused.
So, donnie, what do you thinkabout that?

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Well, I mean, I can understand where they're coming
from, because there's a lot ofdifferent religions that call
him a God right, but not God.
But when you look into thescriptures you see that, like
you just said in John, that heis the Word right, he was in the
beginning with God.
He is God and all things werecreated by him, showing his

(09:11):
divine role as creator right.
And I think the key is when youlook down in the chapter, you
see that the Word became fleshand dwelt among us.
So God became a man in JesusChrist and lived in flesh, and I
think that's the key is tounderstand and comprehend that.
But what we struggle with and Iknow as well, I still do, even

(09:32):
as a Christian man now is we getthese thoughts in our brain
right that are not biblical,because there's lots of things
that we don't know about theBible and we have to understand
that lots of the thoughts thatwe think and that we hear from
other people aren't based ontruth.
So we have to take what we knowto be truth from the Word of
God and search it out and applythat to our life, as opposed to

(09:55):
listening to other ideas of whatother people say so.
I don't know what you think,brock, but what do you?

Speaker 3 (10:02):
think I would completely agree with that.
I would just say like in short,my answer would be that Jesus
is just a physical manifestationof God and his character.
Jesus, the way he lived hislife, really showed God's

(10:22):
character and God's heart forhis people and for people who
were not part of the Jewishpeople.
You know, paul says that thereis no slave, no Gentile, nor Jew
, no free Us as people.
We are all under God.
We're all seeking something out.
We're all we all.
Cs Lewis says we have thatGod-shaped hole in our heart
that we try and fill with theseother things when really Jesus

(10:44):
wants himself to be in thatplace.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Jesus wants himself to be in that place.
Yeah, I think this is a greatquestion.
I think about my own walk here,for instance, and maybe you
guys can relate.
You can say to this but when Ifirst became a believer, even
before I became a believer, whenI first heard about Jesus, the
concept and even scripture canseem confusing to somebody new,
right Before you really startdigging into the theology, and I
think even somebody who's beendoing this for 20-plus years now
I'm still like this is a hardconcept.

(11:09):
The Father, son, holy Spirit,three different individuals, one
God.
It goes against the human flesh.
The way we think it's like itdoesn't make sense.
You know it's like one plus one.
Plus one equals one.
It doesn't.
You know it doesn't one.
It doesn't compute, it doesn'tadd up.
So we struggle with it and whatwe have is God telling us who

(11:30):
he is and then us strugglingwith that identity.
But he's God.
And first I would have to say,if we didn't struggle with the
identity of God, is he God Right?
He should be bigger than us, heshould be outside of our
understanding.
It should be complex Because Ithink, if you could wrap your
mind around it, then it almostpoints to the fact that it's a

(11:51):
man-made God.
Yeah, right, because if I couldfigure out God?
Right, wait, jesus is the sonof God, but he is God, so he's
his own son.

(12:12):
You see how weird that kind ofgets and I think that is the
question of like how do wedecipher that?
What do you run into atUnderground with this?
Does this come up often?

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah.
So there's been a fewconversations, especially a
couple years back.
We were going through the bookof John and we were saying you
know, in the beginning was theword, and the word was with God
and the word was God.
Some people did have an issueand a struggle with
understanding the concept of theTrinity and what we ended up
just kind of getting to thebottom of was just like again,
god is so complex that we mightnot understand it and that we

(12:47):
really just have to pointtowards His glory, like His
godhood, who he is, thecomplexity of His nature.
But I think that the languageof scriptures can sometimes get
confusing for new believers andpeople trying to seek that out,
seeing you know the Son of Godor the Son of man and trying to
just understand from a humanperspective what that means when

(13:09):
it's not in human perspective.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, it's definitely confusing.
I think that's the first part.
Right Is first, realize thatwe're talking about God, who is
defining himself to his creation.
And you know, it's like tryingto explain to a Rolex it's
creator.
It can't be understood.
You know it's like I don't know, I'm a watch and I'm just you,

(13:31):
you, you kind of, whatever youwant to articulate it, as the
idea is that the thing that'screated can really never
understand the thing thatcreated it.
But with that, when we look atJesus, for instance and I think
it's really important that wetry to define this before we
move on to the next question,because I really want our

(13:54):
listeners to understand Jesus asthe Son, but also as God and I
think Hebrews 1.3 really givesus one of the clearest ideas of
this.
It says he is the radiance ofthe glory of God and the exact
imprint and I think this is thekey right here is the exact

(14:15):
imprint of his nature.
This is not talking about himin the flesh.
This isn't his flesh, his tentthat Paul called it, that he was
wearing because that was hishumbling.
We were told that he humbledhimself and became flesh, but
the full nature of God, hischaracter, his attributes,

(14:36):
existed in him.
We can't say that aboutourselves.
We can't say that I have all ofGod's perfect attributes in me.
The sin has divided me fromthat.
My attributes are broken fromGod.
I don't live for God, I livefor self in a broken way.
Jesus lived perfectly for God'swill.
So you have the radiance of Godand then the triune God, the

(14:58):
Father, son, holy Spirit.
You have that perfect communion.
Would you agree with that?
They were in communion andthat's why God didn't need
anything before he createdeverything.
He was in perfect communionwith himself and I love it was J
Vernon McGee who said thefather planned it, the son paid
different ways, like the husbandand wife relationship that Paul
talked about in Ephesians, thatthe wife submits to the husband

(15:20):
Not that she's less than, butshe has a role and the husband
has a role and those roles worktogether for one common thing.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's John 14 or John 16.
I'm not sure which chapter.
I think it's John 14 or John 16, not sure which chapter.
But when Jesus was talking tohis disciples because their
hearts are troubled, because hetells them he's going away, and
he tells them I will not leaveyou orphans, I will not leave
you as orphans, I will come toyou.
And he's talking about the HolySpirit.

(15:59):
So literally he says I will notleave you orphans, I will come
to you, but in anotherpersonality the Holy Spirit.
So you see, when you read that,you got to be able to just say
you know what, like my brotherBrock was saying over here, it's
not something I can comprehendunderstand with this human brain
.
It's a matter of God said it, Ibelieve it, I trust it.

(16:22):
It's faith.

Speaker 3 (16:23):
Yeah, right, yeah, that does come down to faith at
the end of the day, like youjust have to take it for what it
is and not try to understand it.
I mean, you can try, but you'regoing to be trying for a really
long time.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
Yeah, I think at the end of the day we have to take
the Word of God for what it says.
And Jesus says he was truth,right, that he is God, he was
from God.
And it seems againcontradiction like a
contradiction, but you have toaccept it that at the end of the

(16:57):
day, like Hebrews 1, 3 says, heis the radiance of the glory of
God, like in Christ, he becomeslike, god becomes relatable in
Jesus.
That's what it means he humbledhimself in Jesus.
That's what it means he humbledhimself.
In the Old Testament we have allthese expressions of God's
character, this all-powerful,supernatural being that was
unrelatable.
You couldn't touch him, youcouldn't come near to him.
Look at even Moses.
God, I want to see your glory,god's like.

(17:17):
I can't show you my glory,you'll die.
I can't come close to you.
But now we're told that in theface of Jesus he has come close
to us and it's not that, liketoday, Jesus walks into our
house in a physical body becausehis spirit lives in us.
But when we look back to thecross, when we look back to his
life, we see the radiance, arelatable person that we can

(17:38):
look to, and we see the radianceof God's character in that
person and then we can touch it.
That's why, john, I love John'sanalogies.
Well, they're not evenanalogies.
I mean, he said he's like Itouched, I seen, I was with, I
experienced.
You know, he was there withJesus from the beginning of his
ministry to the end.
I think that's the beauty of itis like we have this historic

(18:00):
record of a person who is theradiance of God, not somebody
who pretended to be God, and Ithink that's uh.
Before we move on to the nextquestion that would be the last
thing is like some people haveheard this, some people haven't,
but either Jesus was a liar, hewas a crazy man, or he was who
he said he was.
Like there's no envy, there'sno where else you can go with it
, right, we know he was a realperson, his story in a debate.

(18:26):
So really it comes down to hecouldn't have just been a good
person, because then he wouldhave been a liar, because he
claimed to be God, which is thewhole reason they wanted to kill
him.
Is that not why he was killed,right?
That's that's clear.
So then we're left with was hetelling the truth?
Was he a liar, meaning he knewwhat he was lying about or was
he crazy, meaning he reallybelieved what he was saying and
it was a lie?
But that's what the resurrectionproves, isn't it the

(18:47):
resurrection?
And people say, yeah, but youcan't prove the resurrection.
Why could it?
If you look at the thousands ormillions of martyrs over the
last 2,000 years, why did theones that followed him, who knew
him and walked with him, diefor him?
Look at Paul the Apostle.
I think Donnie would you agree.
Paul the Apostle is probablyone of the best examples in
Scripture we have of somebody'sdrastic conversion.

(19:08):
This guy was killing andarresting Christians.
He had the authority and theright and then was converted on
the road to Damascus and then,all of a sudden, he switched
sides.
I was just explaining thattoday I think it was to you,
brock right, it was like you'rein a battle, you're on the
winning side, you're on thefront lines, we're winning the

(19:29):
battle, we're destroying theenemy, and then, on the front
lines, you just pause, hand yourgun over and switch sides and
join the losing side.
Apparently that doesn't makesense, none.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
Not from a human perspective.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
But that's what.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
Paul did.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
Right.
That's the power of God.
It took a God-seeing experiencefor him to have to change his
ways Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
And Paul's life.
I mean, Paul worked what 70% ofthe New Testament we have, and
most of which was written whilehe was in prison for Christ.
Yes, he often called himself aPaul, a prisoner of Christ, a
slave to Christ, you know, andnot complaining about it, he
realized that that was ordainedby God for purpose and that his

(20:12):
life radiated God's glory inthat sense because he was
showing that Christ is who hesays he is.
He is God in the flesh.
Otherwise and Paul makes alsothe same statement if Jesus
didn't raise from the dead, weare, of all people, the most
pitied, Miserable, and that'swhat else.
What other evidence do you needthat Christians are willing to
die?
And essentially, I love this.

(20:34):
It makes us just like Christ,because either he is who he says
he is and who we're dying foris true, or we're either lying
about who he says he is, whichis kind of crazy, or we're crazy
and we believe the lie Right.
Do you see how it lines up withthe exact same thing and people
have to rectify that in theirown minds.

(20:54):
There's no in-between.
He can't be a good person.
He is either God in the fleshhe was a crazy person or he was
a liar, and people don't die forlies.
They don't get crucified upsidedown for lies?

Speaker 3 (21:08):
no way doesn't they're not gonna.

Speaker 4 (21:09):
You know, sit around and come up with a plan, you
know.
You know what?
Let's, uh, let's go telleverybody that jesus rose from
the grave right, and then, whenthey find out, they'll kill it
if it's not real.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
They're not gonna do guys, guys guys, this is the
best prank ever.
We're gonna tell a lie and theoutcome is nobody's gonna laugh.

Speaker 4 (21:22):
If it's not real, they're not going to do that,
Guys, guys guys, this is thebest prank ever.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
We're going to tell a lie and the outcome is nobody's
going to laugh at it, they'regoing to kill us.
And then everybody signs upyeah, let's do that.
That sounds like a great plan.
It's crazy.
So, anyway, let's move on tothe next question.
So let's get into someexperiential stuff here.
So the next question is youtalked about Jesus being the
life and the light, and I wantthat, but honestly, I feel more

(21:49):
stuck than free most days, likeI'm still in the dark.
What am I missing?
So, brock, why don't you gowith this one?

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Yeah, I think a big thing that we kind of get caught
up on with our either, likeeven new believers.
You know experienced believers,you know people on the meat and
potatoes.
What happens a lot of time iswe focus so hard on the sin, we
focus so hard on the dark areasof our life that we don't leave
any room for Jesus to shine.
I think that a lot of times wewill put ourselves down, hold up

(22:23):
this standard that we believewe have to make, but again,
that's almost anti-gospel.
We don't need to hold anystandard because the grace that
Jesus has given us covers it all.
Will our spirit lead us intothe correct path and the morally
righteous path?
Yes, but there is no morestandard.
There is no more law that we'reunderneath, there is no more

(22:44):
being dead in our sin.
We are made righteous by thegrace of God and that grace
alone.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Donnie, what about you?
What would you say to somebodythat feels like I believe, but I
feel stuck and struggling withthis?

Speaker 4 (22:58):
I think a lot of that comes down to making sure that
you're receiving his, you knowhis life daily, like spending
time with him every single dayand not just walking out there
on your own every day.
Because the more you walk outon your own and you don't spend
time with the Lord, then it getshard, right, and you find

(23:18):
yourself stuck in sin and it'seasier for you to turn to sin.
And I think that feeling stuckdoesn't mean you're far from God
, but it often means that he'sinviting you deeper.
Right, the light of Jesus isn'tjust a sudden switch.
Right, you know, we grow in ourwalk with God.
Right, lots of times it's asteady dawn, it comes like a

(23:40):
sunrise.
Right, and freedom grows as youkeep bringing your real self,
your real struggles and yourdoubts and failures to him.
The more you surrender, themore his spirit makes space for
peace and life inside of you.
Right, so don't measure hiswork by how you feel in a moment
.
Right, because we can do that,because our feelings change just
like this, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
I think that's the issue with our culture in
particular.
I can't speak for all cultures,but ours for sure is we live in
an experiential culture.
We want to experience the power, we want to experience good, we
want to.
We think that there should bethis manifestation of something,
um, like, okay, I can believethe facts, but then they we
relate to.
Well, how do I know I'm savedif I don't experience something

(24:26):
profound?
Yeah, right, yeah.
And then when that doesn'thappen, we start to doubt our
own belief.
So especially I think withyoung adults, again, like
where's their struggle at inthis?
Like where do they strugglefrom facts to experience?
Like where's the boundary inthat?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
Oh man, to experience .
Like, where's the boundary inthat, oh man?
I think that the biggestdetermining factor of that is
just time spent in the word.
You know, I think that a lot oftimes what we have as young
adults is just this idea thatwhen we go into a space that is
meant to seek out Jesus, that weseek out our own version of
Jesus, depending on whatever ourlife circumstances.

(25:05):
So we'll go into it wanting andexpecting a truth, and then
when reality doesn't meet thatexpectation, it's kind of
disheartening.
So I think that the time spentin the Word is a huge one in
order to find out the truth ofwho God is and what he is going
to do in your life, not what youwant from him in your life.

(25:26):
You know, it says that thefather gives his children good
things, you know, and the thingsthat you want in life you know,
ask and pray about it, andJesus says that he will give
them to you.
But I think that that's justwhat it comes down to when you
think about the fact versus theimagination.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
It's recently, a few weeks ago, I had a talk with my
son.
We were in church and I wastalking about the joy of the
Lord.
And I had a talk with my sonafterwards.
He's, you know, in his early20s and I said you know, you
look like you're struggling.
He's like I am.
He's like Dad, I don'tunderstand that joy you're
talking about.
Like, he believes, heunderstands the facts and the
theology behind it, but hedidn't understand how to connect

(26:06):
the theology to the experience.
He was like I, like I thinkthey want that experience, right
, it's desperately.
And isn't that what we all want?
I mean, let's be real, we allwant joy.
That's what this world isseeking.
That's why we live in amaterialistic world.
People are seeking joy.
They're seeking to pleasethemselves.
And Jesus says that in me is thefullness of joy, joy that will

(26:27):
never leave you.
It will satisfy you.
You drink of this cup andyou'll never thirst again.
You'll get what your souldesires in its completeness.
You'll find what you werecreated for.
I explained it to my son.
It doesn't mean abandoningeverything you do in this life,
like to become a monk, you know,and be like oh, that's the only
way.
That's not what it's sayingit's invite Jesus into every

(26:50):
area of your life.
If you're buying a house, ifyou're buying a car, if you're
getting married, all yourrelationships, your financial
problems, your job, whatever itis, invite Jesus into it.
And the thing is, we have toopen up because we're looking
for this magic God.
I think this is what mostpeople are looking for Superhero
syndrome.
Right, we're looking for theGod who flies through the air

(27:11):
and does all these miracles andeverything.
But, honestly, the God that welive for is the God that wants
to sit and eat with us.
He wants to dine with us.
He goes if I knock and youanswer, I'll come in and dine
with you.
That's a subtle small thing,and he just wants to be in the
room with us.

Speaker 3 (27:31):
Yeah, I would want to say and kind of add this in too
it's you know, God doesn't sitthere and say in the word, like,
oh, I'm going to take all yourburdens away, I'm going to take
all your anxiety.
Well, he does actually inviteyou to give that up to him, but
he doesn't say that I'm justgoing to take away everything
that you're going to go throughin life.
He's not.
He's not saying I'm going togive you the perfect life You're
going to live happily everafter.

(27:52):
He says I'm going to sit withyou in all of this suffering.
Cast it upon me, give it to me.
I'm going to sit here and bewith you in this, and you have
to put your faith and trust inme in order to get through it.

Speaker 4 (28:02):
Yeah, and I think one of the biggest things people
need to comprehend and it comesfrom time is like there was a
guy I was listening to.
He was talking to his pastorand he said do you know that
there are so many galaxies ofstars and billions and billions
of stars?
And it was said that if you addup all the words that human

(28:24):
beings speak, it still doesn'tequal the amount of stars that
are out there that we have neverseen, right, and the seas, like
the fish down at the bottom ofthe sea, that we'll never see,
that we can't explore.
He said in the book of Job Ithink it's chapter 39, god tells
Job that he causes it to rainand the sun to shine and the
grass to grow on a land that noman will ever see.

(28:48):
And he asked this pastor.
He said why would God do that?
What's the purpose of that?
Because he had this mindsetthat everything is about us,
that we're at the center of thestory, so that why would God do
something that we can't explore,that we can't see?
And the point was God didn'tmake it for you, he made it for
himself.
Right, we're not the center ofthe story.
So when we get to this point inour walk with God that we

(29:10):
understand the story isn't aboutme, it's about him right and
his glory, whatever brings himthe most glory, then I can say
Lord, whatever happens in mylife, lord, I submit to that
because I know you're doing itto get the most glory out of me
and out of it.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
And I think there's something I want to catch with
that, because that right therestings people.
They don't want to hear thatthey were created for somebody
else's joy and pleasure,somebody else's glory, and it's
like well, what about me?
Because inside of us thensomething screams like you
deserve to be happy.
Well, that's because we live ina culture that screams you
deserve to be happy.
So everything's thrown at usand the reality is like that is

(29:49):
a God-given desire.
I've really pressed in on thislately with people is there's
John Piper talks about this andI think it's beautiful.
It's like we could be selfishfor joy if it's placed in the
right spot.
And Jesus says you know whatyou could be selfish for in the
right spot.
And Jesus says you know whatyou could be selfish for my joy?
Like you can have the fullnessof my joy.
That's why I love John'schapter 14, 15 and 16 as this

(30:10):
sermon where Jesus talks aboutyou ask and you will receive.
And everybody seems to knowthat Like ask anything in Jesus
name and you'll be given.
I was like you know it's onlyhalf the sentence, it's a couple
of verses.
But I was like in chapter 14, Iwas like what's the other half
of the sentence so that myfather is glorified in the son.
There's a complete context.
There is that ask to glorifyGod and it will be given to you.

(30:33):
And then in the next chapter hereiterates it again.
He goes ask anything in my namethat you may bear much fruit.
Well, why Is that contradictoryto the first statement?
The first statement?
No, because he completes it inthe next chapter when he says
ask anything in my name that theFather may be glorified in the
fruit that you bear and you willhave the fullness of my joy.
So he brings all three together.
He connects them all.

(30:54):
Our joy is found in glorifyingthe Father.
It's not found in seeking thejoy and then I'll be happy and
then I can experience God.
No, he's like experience God,live for his glory.
Glory, and he'll give you hisjoy.
It doesn't come from this worldand that is what allows us to
live through the trials andtribulations with joy.

(31:16):
And that's the hard part.
This is what people don't wantto hear.
It's like wait a minute, I'msigning up to be a Christian
here.
I believe it to be true, but Ihave to live through trials and
tribulations.
I was like yeah, as a matter offact, jesus promised you you
would.
It wasn't like you might havetrials and tribulations in this
world.
He's like by the way, if youfollow me I mean he uses the
statement pick up your cross andfollow me.

(31:36):
Like that is, that's harsh.
Like what would you say to ayoung person who says what does
that look like?

Speaker 4 (31:45):
I mean, like, when you were just speaking, I was
thinking of a scripture thatgoes along with what you were
saying in Philippians, where itsays that not only was it given
to you, on behalf of Christ, tobelieve in him, but also to
suffer for his sake.
Right, and that's speaking ofbelieving as a privilege.
God gave you that belief, right, but he also gives you the

(32:05):
privilege to suffer for him.
It's a privilege.
God gave you that belief, right, but he also gives you the
privilege to suffer for him.
It's a privilege that's anoxymoron to his inner mind.
Right, it's a privilege for Godto allow me to suffer so that
he can be glorified as Icontinue to lift him up and
serve him and bring him glory inmy suffering.
Yeah, and that makes him lookeven greater.

(32:26):
Right, and again, why?

Speaker 2 (32:27):
would.
I want to do that Right?
Wait a minute.
I want to suffer to make himlook better.
Why?

Speaker 4 (32:31):
Because that brings you joy right, that gives you
that joy, and that's the.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
that's the part that's confusing for people.
Yeah Right, and that's wherefaith kicks in.
Not a joy you can have withoutfaith.
You have to believe his wordand you have to act upon it.
The joy is the last part, buthere's the best part, I know for
us here in this room, I thinkwe can all say yes to this.

(32:56):
I know I can for sure.
Once you've experienced thatjoy that way, you can't stop
seeking it.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
It's the greatest drug there is.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
It really is You're like on this crazy high and then
people look at you like you'rea crazy person.
You're like, what are you?

Speaker 3 (33:08):
talking about.
I can give anecdotal evidenceof that too.
So you know, last summer I wasthinking out to do a lot of
missions work and I was doing so.
I had sought out to do amissions trip to Alaska, I had
sought out to do a missions tripto Belize, and then on top of
that I was doing four weeks at asummer camp that I volunteer at
.
And so you know, when the versesays, you know to ask in his

(33:31):
name and it will be given, toglorify the father or to bear
much fruit, you know there was afinancial need for that
missions trip, and so you knowI'd prayed about it a ton and I
was missing for both,collectively about, I think,
$900.
And money just started to comein from random sources, uh, and
random people donating on mybehalf, um, thank God I was able
to go on both the missionstrips fully funded.

(33:52):
Um, and so you know, in AlaskaI was a camp counselor.
In Belize we were just doingkind of like a project mission
of building bunk beds andhanding out food to a community
and, um, creating ties with thelocal church.
But throughout all of that andthroughout the other four weeks
of the camp, everybody hadlooked at me as I was making

(34:13):
travels between home and thenext mission trip and home and
the camp, like how are you doingall this and not getting burnt
out?
How are you doing all this andnot getting tired?
And the entire time even thoughit was a struggle because
Belize was hot in the middle ofJuly Belize is 90 something with
90 percent humidity it was hotat the camp that I volunteer at.

(34:35):
We take in a lot of troubledkids from different areas,
different cities, you know,mainly just inner city places
Philly, newark, patterson,irvington, a whole lot Philly,
newark, patterson, irvington, awhole lot, um.
And those kids curse at you andthey disrespect you all day and
they just um, continually, justgive you a problem.
But the more that you shine andreflect Jesus into their life,

(34:56):
the more that you make thatimpact and the more joy that God
gives you in that.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
We, we would go through persecution and go
through suffering, um, notbecause we're Christians, but
just because that's the behavior.
But through that I received alot of joy and I came back
spiritually super, superfulfilled.
Physically I was tired, but Ihad the joy of the Lord in my
heart the whole summer and onthe way back.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, I think the great example of that and I
think most, if not all, of ourlisteners will understand this
part.
We've all done things we'veenjoyed and we can't get enough
of it.
You know, whether you lovevideo games, table tennis,
soccer, golf, doesn't matterwhat it is, but when you love it
, really love it and enjoy it.
And that's the point the joy,through the pain, like I've been

(35:41):
injured golfing from golfingtoo much, because I enjoy it.
My joy took me to the place ofsuffering and even pushing
through the suffering because Ienjoyed it so much.
And that's our life with Christ.
When we receive that joy andit's a joy that surpasses all
understanding we can't begin tocomprehend one.
How am I getting this?
Just because I'm living a life.

(36:02):
That's our suffering, oursuffering best reflects a life
lived for Christ, because thejoy this is how the father, I
think, is getting the glory Ourjoy is radiating out of our
suffering and the world looksupon that and says that doesn't
make sense.
That doesn't make sense, likethat's.
No, I could not do that.
I, who could do that?
I would curse this, I wouldcurse that and I would curse
this.
I would curse that and I wouldfight to get out of that.

(36:25):
And then we, as believers whoare genuinely satisfied in
Christ, like Paul, we go intoour chains joyfully, we pick up
our cross joyfully, we go intothe lion's den joyfully, or we
go into the pit of fire joyfully, you know, and it doesn't make
sense.
And then, when God shows up andthis is where the miraculous
happens, you want to talk aboutthe experience, which is what

(36:47):
we're talking about.
The experience doesn't come tosatisfy our belief.
It becomes because of ourbelief.
We've already believed and wemove in faith and, like I always
love Shadrach, meshach andAbednego.
They're like you know, our Godis able to save us from the fire
, but if he doesn't, who cares?
Like we'll go anyway.
They had a joy and, like Paul,to die is to gain but to live is

(37:12):
for Christ.
He was like kill me.
He's like you're doing me asalad, put me out of this world.
I know where I'm going, but youdon't have the authority to do
that.
Even Jesus says you don't havethe authority to take my life.
He goes, I take my own life, Ilay it down and I take it up
again.
And Jesus tells us to put ourtrust in that, to trust in him.

(37:34):
We don't even have theauthority to put our own life
down.
That's the point.
So we can joyfully go to thoseplaces and just say, if it's my
time, I know the good that'scoming from it, and if it's not,
I know that my Lord is able tosave me from it.
So that's the experience.
So with that, I want to go on tothen the next question, which
is about assurance.
So we see, you guys said beingborn of God isn't something we
do, but something he does.

(37:56):
So how do I know if that'sactually happened to me?
Like, is there something Ishould feel or look for?
Brock, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (38:25):
no-transcript.
When I was just living life, um, you know, apart from Christ, I
would go and do things thatwere, you know, not morally
upright, not morally, um, at arighteous standard, and I just
think, oh, I'm just having fun,I'm just doing my thing, I'm
doing what I want to do, um, andI'm living my life.
And now, as I reflect back onthose things, I think, like man,
that was really messed up.

(38:46):
You know, I did those things tothose people and that was kind
of mean.
So I think that when the spiritcomes to dwell within you, you
understand and realize how deadin your sin you were, how
glorified God is by you livingthat righteously and by allowing
him to sanctify you, and thenalso just understanding the

(39:09):
grace that is given to you forthose things.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, I think.
Yes, the evidence.
It's one of these things.
Like I know, I've been abeliever a while Donnie has.
How long have you been abeliever for Brock?

Speaker 3 (39:20):
I had been raised in church but I had gotten out of
it for a few years and I neverreally took my faith seriously
until about end of 22.
So we're coming up on threeyears.

Speaker 2 (39:28):
So if you really took that short period of time.
So I know for Donnie and Iwe've had time to build that
assurance and it is right.
It's a continual building ofassurance.
It's not a one-time thing whereyou're like, oh, I have
assurance and then, and then I'mgood and I don't need that
anymore, but because of theflesh because, and then I'm good
and I don't need that anymore,but because of the flesh,
because of the sin thatcontinues to dwell in us.

(39:49):
I think we do need continualassurance and that's one thing
our listeners are looking for.
And 2 Corinthians 5.17 says ifanyone is in Christ, he is a new
creation.
And I want to talk about that alittle bit because there should
be evidence.
There should be some evidenceof the difference of who we are,
not of our own doing.
So, donnie, I think ofNicodemus John, chapter 3, where

(40:12):
Jesus talks about being bornagain.
Can you take that story andrelate it a little bit and what
Jesus is talking about in theborn-again process?

Speaker 4 (40:22):
Well, yeah, when he tells Nicodemus that we have to
understand who Nicodemus is,right, nicodemus is the ruler of
the Sadducees, right?
So he was the top dog, right?
So he's the guy that had allthe degrees, all the
certificates, he had the robes,right, he had everything on the
wall in his office.
Everybody went to him becausehe knew the law, right.
And Jesus was telling him right, you must be born again.

(40:46):
And so Nicodemus, he doesn'tunderstand what he's talking
about.
But what is he really saying?
He's telling Nicodemus yourfirst birth, what did you do to
take part in that right?
And Nicodemus, he doesn'tunderstand.
Like that's what he's reallysaying to him.
But the question is what didyou really do in your first
birth?
What did you do?
Did you think about you know,when you were born?

(41:07):
Did you ask to be born inMillville?
Did you ask to be born withbrown eyes?
Yeah, nothing.
You did nothing to be born thefirst time.
And what he's telling them isthe second time, to be born
again, to be born of God.
There's nothing you can do.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
He's relating the two , he's bringing them together,
not separating them.

Speaker 4 (41:23):
So you could take all of your degrees and all the
stuff that you've learned and gohave a bonfire with it, because
you're not making it to heavenbased on what you do.
It's what I do and that's whathe's telling him there.
You must be born again, andit's something I do, and he's
actually prior to chapter 3, wesee Nicodemus and John and John.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Chapter 1, verses 12 to 13,.
It says we were born not ofblood nor of the will of man,
but of God.
Yes, that was the point.
There's no inheritance.
You didn't inherit this becauseof the bloodline that you come
from.
You aren't a prince that islined up to be the next king.
There's no inheritance.
Your parents are Christians, sotherefore you're Christians.

(42:06):
It doesn't work that way.
Not of blood nor of the will.
Meaning you didn't decide this,right?
You didn't like one day wake upand be like I'm willing myself
to be a child of God.
Today, right, I decide, Ifigured this out.
He's saying no, he goes, but ofGod, but of God.
Yes, but of God.
And Paul reiterates that inEphesians 2, and he says that so

(42:27):
that we can't boast.
There's nothing to boast about,because it's for the glory of
God, and if you did anything init, then you got something to
boast about.
So if this is true and this iswhat our listeners want to—and
this is where the conflictreally becomes, because people
start to feel the unfairnesshere and this is why people love
free will.
They like this free willbecause, you know, I can't

(42:50):
accept the fact that somebodyelse isn't saved, like that's
not fair.
So, donnie, let's talk aboutthat real quick, because I think
that's really important for ourlisteners to understand.
Is it fair that God wouldseparate?

Speaker 4 (43:07):
people like that.
Well, the Bible never saysanything about fair.
When talking about God, itcalls him just right.
So we have to ask the questionis God just in what he does?
Right?
And of course he's just ineverything that he does.
But the key to understandingthe whole situation is
understanding that human beingsaren't set on a neutral position

(43:30):
.
Right, all of us are sinners bynature, and what are we
deserving of?
Right, we deserve to go to hell.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
We deserve God's wrath.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
We deserve his wrath and his justice.
So if God decided to sendeverybody to hell, is he fair?
Absolutely he's fair, becausethat's what we deserve.
So if God decides to show mercyto some right, is he unfair to
the rest that he didn't showmercy to?
No?
Mercy is not something youdeserve.
It's something that is chosenby God to be given to you.

(44:01):
So if God chooses to save fiveand not save the other five,
they're only getting justice.
They're not getting somethingthat's unfair.
They're still getting what theydeserve, right.
That's right.
And the people that get mercy,they're getting something they
don't deserve, right.
So, like John MacArthur used tosay, he said you don't want
fair, you want mercy.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
That's the truth.
Right, that is the truth.

Speaker 4 (44:22):
Romans 9,.
What does it say?
It says that I will have mercyon whom I have mercy and whom I
will, I will harden.
It's simply God's choice to dowhat he wants with his own
creation and we have to be okaywith that.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
In our mind.
It's hard for us to be okaywith that and that's why people
make the image of God out of theimage of man.
It's man making the image ofGod, not allowing God to say who
he is Like.
We don't want that kind of God,Like in our and that's our
sinful nature, broken from thecharacter of God, Like we don't
want to accept who he says he is.
I mean, how many times have wehad discussions, Donnie, with
people, either together withsomebody or even with each other

(45:01):
?
And we've talked so many timesabout pointing clear scripture
out where God says I am, I am, Iam.
Like you go into Isaiah,chapters 45, 46, 47.
I said I love those chaptersbecause God goes on a tyrant, I
am, I am, I am, I am.
And he's laying it out and wecan point out clear, distinct
things.
And then to people like, oh, no, no, no, no, and then they go

(45:24):
out of their way to explainthose scriptures away because it
confronts this idea that oh, no, no, no, God the big one is
loving, right, how often doesthis come up in young adults?
God is loving, and then theydefine what that means, not
allowing God to define it.
So how often do you see that?

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Yeah, all the time, I think that a lot of uh, and
even just maybe even a youngerage group too, they hear that
you know God is love and that,um, you know his love comes
before anything else and Godloves you, and and that type of
stuff.
But I think that that just um,again, we're taking a God
concept and we're using ourhuman perspective to define it
instead of just taking it forwhat it really is, as truth and

(46:03):
um, a lot of these young adultswill have this idea of like, oh
well, if God loves me, hewouldn't do this.
Or if God loves me, he wouldn'tdo that.
Like, you don't know what God'slove is over your life.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
Well, he killed his own son Right.
Let's put that out there first.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
He nailed his son to a cross.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
you know Like.
So what do you think you'regetting Exactly?
And he called that love.
Yeah, and that love was mercy.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
That love was mercy on our soul and I think, to put
an analogy to it, I think it wasyou that told me this, Harry, I
think I know it was you thattold me this, but there's a
firing line and you're upagainst the wall and you're
about to be shot upon.
There's 10 of you and you know,as they're taking aim, getting
ready to execute the 10, thegeneral gets a call and he

(46:46):
speaks some words over the phone.
You and four other people getpulled out of line and then they
execute the rest and you'resitting there like what, what
happened, why?
And the general is just likehey, somebody really loves you
and wants you to be with them.
So you got pulled out bymercy's sake.
You know, a lot of people,unfortunately, have a hard time
wrapping their head around thatagain, because it's just such a

(47:08):
unexplainable concept.
And again it just comes down todon't don't dive into that
complexity, trying to figure out, because that's just who God is
.
It's his character.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Yeah, I think that well one it comes down.
Donnie and I have talked a lotabout this, the motive of God.
Like so many people, I loveasking this question.
I've brought it up in myteachings and stuff.
But why did God do all that hedid?
Why did he create the world?
Why did he create us?
And again people will talkabout love, like he wanted
beings talking about us to lovehim.

(47:39):
But if you go to Acts, I forgetwhich chapter it is 17, he says
God wasn't needing anything.
He didn't create us because heneeded something.
He was lacking something.
So what was it God was doing?
He was glorifying himself.
We just had this discussion inchurch.
Throughout scripture it isabundantly clear and I would
challenge anybody just take thatword glory and just start

(47:59):
reading your Bible, but behypersensitive to the word glory
.
It is everywhere.
Right, it's all over scripture.
God did everything for hisglory.
Jesus made it abundantly clear.
Just read the life of Jesus.
Read his words.
What does he say?
He only did what glorified theFather.
He lived for the Father's glory, he prayed for the Father's
glory.
His motive was glory.
That was it, not love.

(48:20):
Never did he say I'm doing thisfor the love of the Father.
He had the Father's love, buthe was doing this for glory.
Love is a character.
It's part of God is love, butthat's not his motive.
You know, out of his characterhe loves, but he so is glory.
And I've always talked aboutthe difference between will and
desire.
And this explains John chapter3, 16, right, did God not?

(48:43):
Did Jesus when he died on thecross?
Was it not sufficient to savethe whole world?
It was Like that sacrifice wassufficient to save the whole
world, but the whole world's notsaved.
So what's going on?
Was it not sufficient or was itsufficient?
That's what you have to ask thequestion.
And people are like well, youhave to choose to believe.
But then you have to ask thequestion well, if unbelief can

(49:04):
condemn me, then it wasn'tsufficient, because then that
means he couldn't save me frommy unbelief.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
Right, that means he missed sin.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, do you understand that?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah, it's a logical question.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Right, it is, and so it had to be satisfactory.
So then, if it was satisfactoryand not all are saved, where
does that leave you?
It leaves you with the literalinterpretation of Scripture that
he saved the elect yes, thatwas the point those whom he
chose before the foundations ofthe world, ephesians 1, verse 4.
Love that verse.
He chose you before thefoundations of the world.

(49:37):
And this is where people willstart to argue oh well, he
looked down the tunnels of timeand saw what we would do.
And then that shows God, likeplaying a video game on those,
like his sovereignty isinterweaving our choices.
But it puts us at the head ofthe game, right, it puts our
choices first, and then Godhaving to manipulate through our
choices to accomplish his will.

(49:58):
But where do you see thatcontext, especially when Jesus
or the Father are explainingthemselves personally?
It's nowhere in Scripture.
Nowhere context, especiallywhen Jesus or the Father are
explaining themselves personally.
Never, it's nowhere in.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
Scripture.
Nowhere you will never see inScripture where God looks down
through the time and sees whowill believe and elects them
based on their choice.
You will never see that.
No, and the key tounderstanding the God
sovereignty, why God saves, howGod is fair and just whatever
you want to call it and savingwhom he wants it all boils down

(50:30):
to understanding who we are andwhat we deserve.
So if I say, oh wow, god willsave those five people but then
will not save these five, that'snot fair.
Where does that come from?
That comes from my thoughtsthat I deserve something right.
That's what makes it unfair.
Because they deserve theopportunity right.

(50:53):
But the key you got to go allthe way back to the beginning
Again.
We all deserve hell.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Ephesians chapter two , all that clear.

Speaker 4 (51:00):
None of us deserve the opportunity.
It's simply the choice of Godto show mercy on whom he will.
I don't deserve anything.
I have to live in that realityevery day.
I don't deserve to get up, Idon't deserve to be able to wash
myself, feed myself, have kids.
I don't deserve any of it and Ilive in that reality.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
I want to point something out.
I was hesitant to say it, but Ifeel like I have to because
it's going to be one of thesethings that's going to have to
be said multiple times.
You saw, I just put a recentdevotion out on why did Jesus
need to die on the cross.
It was from that young man whoasked me that question and it
was so profound it bothered meand I came to a simple answer.
I want to say this first,before I really explain it.
It's like if I could talk tothat child again, I would say

(51:43):
Jesus needed to die on the crossbecause he wanted to show us
how beautiful God is.
That's a simple, childlikeanswer.
Now, from there you have tounpack it.
Now I would let that child askme well, how is that beautiful?
And then I can expand on that.
But it's a great answer becausewhat God was doing, what Jesus
was doing on that cross, hewasn't just dying for our sins,

(52:05):
it was a result of him, but hewas glorifying the Father.
We saw that in the scriptures.
He says he's doing this toglorify the Father fully.
And what do you have at thecross?
You have all of the attributesof God, the full character of
God on display simultaneously.
His justness, his mercy, hisgrace, his wrath is being poured

(52:27):
out, but his grace and hismercy is being poured out
simultaneously.
He's dealing with sin.
And then the beauty of this isand I want Christians to hear
this, because I've met so manypeople that are happy just to be
saved Like I'm saved, and thisis that non-seeking mindset I'm
saved and that's good enough.
I'm saved and this is thatnon-seeking mindset I'm saved
and that's good enough.

(52:47):
Jesus didn't save you from sinto be good enough.
He took you from the wrath ofGod, the full weight of it.
It's as far separated as youcan be.
And he didn't just save youfrom that.
He placed you on high, placedus with him in the heavenlies,
like we are enthroned with him.

(53:07):
We are co-heirs with Christ.
That's what it means to beplaced in Christ.
So he didn't just like put usin heaven, he made us like to
reign with him.
That should be notunderstandable.
In fact, I can't Like.
I can accept it, I believe it,but I sure as heck don't deserve
that.
You want to talk about what Idon't deserve, right?

(53:28):
Right, it was like.
No, it's like I deserve thatwrath way more than I deserve to
be seated on high with ChristLike you.
Who can picture that Right?
It's like taking the worstcriminal in the world out of
prison.
You murdered a million people.
Take this dude out, clean himup and make him Like who would

(53:52):
do—what Doesn't make sense?
No, but that's what God did andthat is where his glory really
shines through.
It's shown through in Christ,because Christ shone that
forward and this is where itshows through in us.
His glory reflects off of that.
We were that sinner and he tookus.
And his glory shines off of usin that grace and that mercy and

(54:14):
it pours out because we areundeserving.
So when the world looks at us,it's not like about fairness,
like you talked about.
This is about glory.
God's motive is his glory.
He's putting it on display andhe says we were created for his
glory.
Not he was lacking right.
We were created to radiate.
We were reflecting.

(54:35):
I said this just recently.
I have to share this light.
So where does color come from?
When you think of things inthis world and you look at your
shirt and your table and youlook at all these beautiful
colors, you can say what coloris that table, what color is
your shirt and people will saycolors and be like you know, but
are they?
If I turn the lights off, whatcolor are they?
Are they still that color?
In the dark?
They're only that color becausethe light is reflecting off of

(54:57):
them.
But it's not all the light Likejust go look this up.
It is a reflection of a part ofthe light spectrum.
All the color that we see inthis world is in the light
spectrum, not in the object.
That object absorbs the lightand only reflects certain colors
and that's what we see.
So we're seeing the reflectionof the light, not the color of

(55:18):
the object.
That color is inherently dark.
It has no color in and ofitself.
It reflects the glory.
That's what we do.
So when somebody sees somethingof God in us, they're seeing a
spectrum of it.
We are glorifying him and whatwe were meant to do is look like
Christ.

(55:39):
Christ perfectly reflected thefull light spectrum of God's
glory.
We reflect a fraction of it,but we are being sanctified from
one glory to another and whenwe are seated in heaven with him
, we will reflect the full gloryof God.
It doesn't radiate from us, itradiates off of us.
How beautiful is that?
And that points to what Paulsaid, that all creation

(56:01):
proclaims the glory of God.
I feel like, no matter where youlook, you see that.
So to sum up this question theassurance of my salvation is
this One if you aren't worriedabout it, you're probably not
saved.
You don't even care, you don'teven care, you don't even care.
So stop worrying about what youcan't worry about.
And if you are worried about itand you want to be saved, you

(56:23):
probably are because you desireit.
So now the question is, and Ithink 1 John not the Gospel of
John, but the first epistle ofJohn really talks about the
assurance of salvation.
He talks about love.
It's the epistle of love andeverything.
That's what we're looking for.
Have you been changed?
Talk about Nicodemus.
You talk about being born again.
What is different about you?

(56:44):
What sound are you makingdifferent?
Are you praising God?
Are you studying the word?
Are you loving people?
Different?
Did you give up the drugs?
Did you give up the weed?
Did you give up the alcohol?
Did you give up the pornography?
Like, are you fighting thesethings?
It's not that you're perfect,but you don't like it on you
anymore.
You want the filth off and thenthe rest of your life you're

(57:06):
going to learn that you can'tget it off.
It's there on you, but you'rechanged.
You have a desire.
You're no longer living in itand for it, yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:14):
I think the way I always put it when I'm talking
to a lot of young folks is whenthey want to know, like, what's
the evidence of my salvation,that I'm really saved?
I said the biggest evidence Iknow for myself was sin wasn't
comfortable anymore.
It wasn't something I couldjust do and it was comfortable.

(57:35):
It became uncomfortable for me.
I would still do it, but Ididn't like it.
It wasn't comfortable.
Your desires change, right, likeyou said, you become a new
creation and you desire to honorGod and when you displease God
and you sin, it grieves youbecause you're grieving the
spirit of God within you.
So it's a total transformation.

(57:57):
God gave us a new heart.
Right, we're new creatures.
Before we were sinners bynature, lived 100% that way.
We were enslaved to it.
He made us new.
Now we desire the things of Godand we grow right and it's just
a constant battle and that'show you know you're saved.
Because you're constantlybattling it.
You give in, you hate it, yourepent.

(58:18):
You say God, I'm not doing thatanymore.
Five days later you did itagain.
Whatever, that's basically whatit is.
But there's a fight.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
There's a war now, and Colossians 3 says set your
minds on the things that areabove, not on the things that
are on earth.
And then verse three goes on tosay for you have died and your
life is hidden with Christ inGod.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
You know.

Speaker 3 (58:38):
So we sit here and again kind of points back to
what I was saying earlier.
We sit here and we focus somuch on the wrong and we focus
so much on our own strength andI'm actually I just spoke on
this at Underground recently butwe cannot lean on our own
strength because we will alwaysdisappoint ourselves.
And then we put thatdisappointment not within

(59:00):
ourselves, we actually put thatdisappointment in God and we say
, oh God, I disappointed you, Idisappointed you, you're not
disappointing him, you'redisappointing yourself.
Um and so trying to do it inour own strength, we're always
going to fail, we're alwaysgoing to not meet that standard.

Speaker 2 (59:10):
But if we allow ourselves to just shift our
focus, shift our mindset ontowhat God has for us and how God
is changing our life.
If we allow ourselves to justshift our focus, shift our
mindset onto what God has for usand how God is changing our
life, if we set our mind on thethings above, we will be hidden
in Christ.
Yeah, this is a phrase I justcame up with yesterday.
It's a phrase that's out there.

(59:30):
I didn't invent this, it's justmy words to it.
We are not perfected in what wedo.
We are perfected in what hedoes.
In what we do, we are perfectedin what he does, and that's the
beauty of it is what God isdoing.
Why do we continue to sin?
Our assurance comes from thisnot in what we do, but in what
he's doing, and that's where ourjoy comes from.
We see him do good despite oursin.
So why does he leave us in thestate of sinful, in our sinful

(59:51):
nature, here in this world?
Well, it's the sanctification.
But he's glorifying himself.
He's showing how he is not justonce and for all overcome sin,
but he is continually overcomingsin.
So he did overcome sin once andfor all, but we are the
evidence of that.
It's already overcome, soyou've already been forgiven,
and the evidence is it plays outin your life, you sin, and this

(01:00:14):
is why Paul says don't sin sothat grace may abound.
Right, he said that'sridiculous, basically, I think,
because you're going to sinanyway.
It's going to happen withoutyou trying.
So just let that be enough.
Don't force it, you don't needto, and God will get the glory

(01:00:34):
for it.
That's why Paul says threetimes in Ephesians, chapter one,
to the praise of his gloriousgrace.
Like our role is praising him,our worship, our exaltation to
him for the grace he pours out,which brings him the glory.
And I think it's such abeautiful picture and it really
we're going to wrap it up withthis fourth question, which is
it really comes off.
The last one, it's theclarifying belief.

(01:01:02):
This listener says sometimes Iwonder, do I actually believe in
Jesus or do I just agree withstuff about him?
Like how do I know if I'vereally surrendered or if I'm
just saying the right things?
Again, we've kind of coveredthat in the heart issue, but
again, again, we've kind ofcovered that in the heart issue,
but again, I think it deservesa little extra clarity because
people struggle with this.
There's a lot of fakers outthere.
It is possible to believe.

(01:01:24):
Tell me if I'm wrong.
What do you think, donnie, onthis?
Is it possible to believe,basically have head knowledge to
know that God is real, he iswho he is?
I know, historically speaking,the evidence supports it.
Jesus is who he is.
I know, historically speaking,the evidence supports it.
Jesus is who he is.
I believe he raised from thedead.
Does that save me?
Is that enough?
Is head knowledge enough forsalvation?

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
No, because salvation is not based on you and what
you do.
It's based on what.

Speaker 1 (01:01:48):
God does.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
That's right.
So my own effort is never goingto work.
And if I think that, listen towhat the scripture says in
Romans, chapter 10, that if youbelieve in your heart right,
that God has raised him from thedead, confess with your mouth
right, thou shalt be saved,because with the heart man
believes unto righteousness.
Write this.
But when you look back inJeremiah, chapter 17, what does
the scripture say about man'sheart?

(01:02:09):
It says it's desperately wicked, right, deceitful above all
things.
Who can know it Right?
So you're telling me that whenthe gospel is preached and I
believe it am I believing it inthat heart that you just said is
desperately wicked anddeceitful above all things?

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:02:26):
Right.
So I'm trusting in that heartto say did I really believe?

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
No, that's not how it works and I think that's why
people get confused about theirown salvation.
I remember I struggled thefirst year.
I didn't know if I was saved.
I spent a whole year of askingChrist to come into my heart a
whole year because I never hadsome miraculous experience and I
struggled with it.

Speaker 4 (01:02:44):
Yeah, because it's not what you do, right?
Did I really believe?
Well, my heart is deceitful.
God, you just told me that inJeremiah, but now you're telling
me to believe in my heart.
How am I supposed to believe ina heart, with my heart that you
say is deceitful anddesperately wicked?
Well, the point is, god has togive me a new heart, right.
He has to regenerate me, right.
And when he does that, then I'mable to believe.

(01:03:05):
Right, that's what it says inEzekiel.
He says I will take your heartof stone and give you a heart of
flesh, right, and then you willbelieve, and then you will walk
in my ways.

Speaker 3 (01:03:14):
He's doing the work he will cause you to, that's
right, yeah, and I think thatthe actual root cause of that
question to come up with a lotof people is the am I good
enough?
That whole question stems fromthe belief of am I good enough
to be saved, rather than am Iactually saved?
That's the root behind thequestion and, again, that's

(01:03:35):
putting it on us, that's puttingour salvation upon ourselves.
So what I would just say, to ayoung adult especially, is allow
God to work in your life in theway that he wants to work and
what that is.
He will lead you.
Continue praying, continue tobe in his word, continue to
figure out the truth of who Godis in your life and follow it

(01:03:58):
Like just full heartedly seekafter it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I think.
Um, to close it up so there'stwo scriptures I would share is
the talk about the headknowledge is James 2, 19.
You're probably familiar withthis, donnie Brock, you probably
are too.
It says even the demons believe.
And they shudder right.
They have the head knowledge,they know who he is, but they're
not submitted to him.
So what we're looking for toanybody out there, if you want
the absolute assurance thatyou're a believer, that you are

(01:04:23):
saved beyond the shadow of adoubt, it's not the head
knowledge that does it.
It has to be converted, andJesus says this in Luke 9, 23,.
If anyone would come after me,this is how you're going to know
, he says, if you're comingafter me, if you want to know
that you're coming after me, lethim deny himself and take up
his cross daily and follow me.

(01:04:43):
Don't just suffer for Christone time and be like whew, I got
it out of the way, I'm good.
He says daily, every single day, you wake up out of bed, pick
up the cross and carry it allday long.
You're going to suffer forChrist.
That doesn't make sense.
An unregenerated person willnot do that.
They won't.

(01:05:04):
They'll have the head knowledge, and we see these Christians
all the time.
You're going to go to church,speaking to everybody.
Now you're going to go tochurch this Sunday.
You're going to start lookingaround and be like how many
there are?
Just pew warmers.
They're just there checking off.
I'm here today, but they don'tgo the rest of the week ever
doing anything for Jesus.
They won't say his name, theywon't pray at a meal, they won't

(01:05:25):
pray at night, they won't readtheir Bible, none of this stuff.
I've had people leave theirBible at church and I thought
about calling them.
I was like, let me see if Idon't call them, how long did it
go?
And I've had people literallyshow up next Sunday with a new
Bible in their hand.
I'm like, oh, oh, I left it atchurch.
Huh, that's where your Bible'sat.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
I think really sorry quick to interject this, but I
think that a big question a lotof people would have is,
especially as an adult or a newbeliever.
I think that a big question alot of people would have is like
, especially as an adult or anew believer, I think it would
be.
What does that mean?
To pick up my cross daily, um,and to, kind of, you know, give
some some emphasis to that.
What was the cross meant to do?
Um, it was to meant to doeverything that we had discussed
earlier, but it was to crucifythe flesh.

(01:06:10):
So, as we walk through ourdaily um, you know, picking up
of our cross, the entirety ofthat message is to deny your
flesh, crucify the flesh, getrid of it, don't indulge in it.
And again there's grace.
There's going to be momentswhere you sin.
There's going to be momentswhere that happens, but thank
God for the mercy that he has onus.

(01:06:30):
But that is what picking upyour cross means is to deny the
flesh and crucify it with Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:06:36):
I will say this and I'm not saying that Jesus is
imperfect, I'm definitely notsaying this but I want to show
the example of God's grace atwork in Jesus.
Jesus dropped the cross.
He didn't have the strength tocarry it all the way and he got
help.
The Roman soldiers made agentleman help him pick up the
cross and carry it so that hecould get it there.
Grace, we have that same graceon us.

(01:06:59):
We can't carry it.
The reality is it's a burdenthat's too much for anybody to
bear and we get the help of theHoly Spirit to carry that.
This is why we're called to goto church and to fellowship with
one another.
People are like I don't needchurch, I got God, I fellowship
with God.
And when I hunt or when I golfor whatever I do on Sunday other
than church, people want tojustify that.

(01:07:20):
But the reality is, jesus said,where two or three are gathered
in my name, I'm in the midst ofthem and we get help.
And we should get help from oneanother and our church's
fellowship family should behelping one another.
So, and again that's denyingself, right, I'm going to live
for Brock.
And again that's denying self,right, I'm going to live for
Brock.
I'm going to live for Donnie.
I'm going to live to help themin their suffering.
That's not natural to me.
The natural person would belike I'll wait for them to ask

(01:07:41):
and then maybe we'll see.
I might make an excuse not tohelp, or I can't, or this or
that, but a believer will go outof their way to deny themselves
and be like Brother Donnie, Iknow you're going through it
right now.
What can I do to help you?
And then you might say nothing,but I don't care, I'm helping
you anyway.
I'm going to do something toease your burden, to ease your
pain, and that's what we do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Yeah, and I was just going to say too, because like
it's not even just like acharacter embodiment of like the
spirit within us, like thespirit's going to call us to do
those things, we're alsocommanded to do those things.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
In.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
Philippians.
It says to put the interest ofothers above yourself.
You know so God is calling usand commanding us to, especially
in the fellowship of Christ.
Like put other people aboveyourself always, like that's how
you emulate Christ.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
And that's the heart right.
At the end of the day, it's notwhat you say or what you do,
because our sinful nature isgoing to come out of us, but
it's the intent behind it, andonly you know that, like many
people are going around fakingit pretty good.
I think there's a lot of thosepeople out there and if you get
close to them you start torecognize that they're usually
the people who don't let youclose to them.
They only want to put on a showto an extent, but you can't get

(01:08:46):
really close to them becausethe real them isn't what you and
I see.
That's the social media people,a lot of that out there.
They only want you to see thebest parts of them.
But the real, genuine believerswill show you the real them.
They're not perfect, they'remessed up.
You know they say the wrongthing, they do the wrong thing,
but the intent like theygenuinely sacrifice themselves

(01:09:07):
for people.
You know what I mean.
It's like that is how you wantto know you're a believer.
It's that genuine sacrifice.
Jesus said there's no greaterlove than somebody die for his
brother right, like for anotherperson.
And that's the point, thissacrifice.
Pick up your cross and followafter me.
So I think that's the assurance.
I think this was a greatdiscussion.
I think we've covered a lot.

(01:09:28):
We've been here for a minute.
I hope our listeners really gota lot out of this, and to our
listeners I would say againplease, this is why we need your
questions.
We want to discuss this withyou, we want to bring guest
speakers in and we want to diveinto these questions and we want
to help you understand thetruth of God's word so that you
can truly be set free, becauseJesus said if the Son has set
you free, you will be freeindeed, and that freedom is to

(01:09:50):
live in righteousness for theglory of God, so that you can
have the fullness of his joy.
There's no better freedom thanthat.
So, with that said, I'm goingto go ahead and close us in
prayer and we'll get out of here.
So, father God, thank you somuch for this time together with
my brothers.
It was such a joy to have thisconversation.
For our listeners, for thepeople out there who are
struggling with these things,struggling to know if they're

(01:10:12):
saved or not, I pray that youwould make it fully known to
them that you would revealyourself to them, that you would
transform their hearts to livefor you and to die for you.
That it's both.
You know to die is to gaineverything, but to live is for
Christ.
So, whether we live or die, wehave you either way, god, and I

(01:10:33):
love that promise.
I pray that our listeners wouldhear that, know that, believe
it and submit to it that theywould put themselves in
situations where they'reliterally sacrificing their
selves for somebody else, sothat they can know and have that
assurance that you are in themand working in them and, above
all, god, that you get the gloryand they get the joy.

(01:10:53):
We love you and we thank you,jesus, in your precious name.
Amen.
As always, I want to thank youfor joining us today, and I hope
this episode has helped youtake a step closer in your
relationship with Jesus and thatyou now have a deeper
understanding of just how muchGod loves you and wants you to
know him.
Every fourth episode we pauseto answer your questions, just

(01:11:15):
like we did today, so keep themcoming.
Use the text us link in theepisode description to share
what's on your heart.
Your input helps us to shapefuture episodes that speak
directly to your needs and helpyou grow in your faith.
It's our desire that thisministry be a tool to reach the
lost and equip the saints for alife that brings glory to God.
God bless, and we'll see younext time on the Takeaway.