July 11, 2025 • 41 mins
Take a deep dive into the philosophy that transforms daily habits into lifelong success with serial entrepreneur Jon Sabes. This conversation uncovers the power of "small, consistent efforts made upstream that lead to significant downstream effects" across all areas of life.
Jon shares his journey as a two-decade entrepreneur who's built multiple companies, gone public, and experienced both incredible success and massive challenges. Through these experiences, he's developed practical wisdom about what truly drives performance and happiness.
The conversation explores the true nature of happiness as a journey rather than a destination. Jon differentiates between hedonic pursuits (self-indulgent behaviors) versus virtuous activities that create ripples of positivity around you. His insights on delayed gratification will transform how you think about short-term versus long-term rewards: "When you're 70, and when you're 80, and God willing, when you're 90 or even 100... you want to be able to look back and say my life has been a dream."
Whether you're seeking personal growth, building a team, or simply trying to find more joy in daily life, John's approach to pursuing happiness through intentional daily practices will give you practical tools to implement immediately. Connect with Jon: https://jonsabes.com/
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
I am joined by special guestJon Sabes.
Welcome to the show, Jon.
Thanks, jay, great to be hereNow.
You have an incredible storyand I would love to tell it for
you.
But since you're here, Ifigured I'd ask you why don't
you introduce yourself to theaudience and tell them a little
(00:21):
bit about how you got into thistalent development space?
Jon Sabes (00:24):
the audience and tell them a little bit about how you
got into this talentdevelopment space.
Sure Well, I guess I'm a serialentrepreneur.
I've been kind of doingentrepreneurial stuff for almost
two decades now and builtseveral companies and had some
just incredible success and somemassive challenges, as every
entrepreneur really does, yeah.
(00:44):
So my journey's no exception tothe rule and I guess, yeah, I've
had the chance to lead teamsand develop teams and have teams
fall away from me and teamsfall in behind me, so it's
definitely such an incrediblepart of the journey.
(01:05):
So, yeah, my journey as aserial entrepreneur in financial
services over two decades I'vebuilt several companies, gone
public, been listed, had exits.
I've done a lot.
I'm always in the sort oflongevity space, financial
services space, which kind ofdeveloped this sort of again
this career into healthylongevity and financial services
(01:28):
, life insurance, annuities,financial products and services.
So that's kind of my specialty.
I also got into molecularbiomarkers of health and
longevity through that, with atech spinoff on that.
So I became sort of aself-learned expert in
epigenetic aging, uh, geneexpression and and how does this
(01:50):
uh beautiful body called,called the human, you know,
actually function?
Jay Johnson (01:55):
Oh, now you're speaking my language when we
start getting into the genetics,epigenetics and all the fun
stuff of uh, neurobiology andall those different impacts.
But one of the things thatreally attracted me to having
this conversation with you waspartially from your personal
philosophy.
I really loved when I read justan excerpt.
(02:16):
Success in life comes fromsmall, consistent efforts made
upstream that lead tosignificant downstream effects,
whether in health, wealth orpersonal fulfillment, and you
apply that through your dailylife through discipline regimen.
That includes journaling,strength training, healthy
eating and sauna.
I'm a big sauna fan myself.
(02:37):
I knew we'd get along andespecially, you know, in these
northern climates it's anecessity.
So I want to talk about thatfirst, if we can, Jon.
What do you mean by these small, consistent efforts made
upstream?
Jon Sabes (02:52):
Yeah, when we talk about small again, how do we
swallow the whale One bite at atime?
So how do we affect this dreamlife that we're all on our own
journey and we all want to buildthis beautiful life of our own
design.
And the way we're going to dothat, right, is only by small,
little increments of betterment,right.
(03:13):
And so if we attack our goalsand objectives in life in small
bits, right, you get there.
And so that's kind of this ideawhere I think too often we try,
we have these big dreams, thesebig goals, and we feel like we
so quickly can get disappointedin the progress, because it
(03:37):
takes a long time to accomplishbig things, and so it's much
easier to accomplish smallerthings.
And if you direct your thoughtsand your actions towards those
smaller things in these positivedirections, whether they be in
your business, in your mentalattitude, whether your own
health, what I like to say isyou increase the odds, you
(03:59):
increase the probability thatyou get where you want, and
that's where I'm writing to.
So it's these small actions,and you have to program your
subconscious so this stuffbecomes almost automatic in
these directional habits towardsbuilding a life of your dreams,
and that's kind of what I'mtalking about.
Jay Johnson (04:19):
And see, I love that because in so many cases,
especially in the field oftalent development, immediately
we, you know, all right, what dowe need to fix?
We need to fix communication,and communication can be, you
know, especially in the businessworld.
That is the Ironman whichyou've run five impressive, by
the way but like, that is theIronman.
(04:40):
And when we're developing atraining or when we're
developing some kind of learningopportunity, it seems to me
that we're always thinking aboutthe top of the mountain and
we're not thinking about thesteps that it takes to get to
the top of the mountain.
So let me ask you this questionAll of us have these large
ambitions, these large goals.
(05:01):
How are you able to essentiallykeep yourself focused on the
daily habits when you're lookingup at the top of the mountain?
It's got to be something thateverybody, when we experience it
, we look at our goals and justlike, oh my gosh, it's so far
off, retirement is so far off,communication is so far off.
(05:21):
How have you personally beenable to kind of keep yourself in
that present moment, to befocused on those smaller things
that are going to make along-term impact?
Jon Sabes (05:32):
Yeah, I think a couple of things to contribute
there.
First of all, I'm not asdisciplined as I might look.
I don't want to.
I have all the failings thatprobably every other listener
has out there as well.
So don't feel like you know,you need to have some sort of
super self-discipline toaccomplish these things.
(05:54):
You know you mentioned Ironmanand I have done five Ironman
triathlon events and I've alwayswas amazed by what we call the
midnight finishers.
You have to finish Ironman bymidnight and otherwise they cut
off.
They cut the finish off, and Iwas always amazed by these
bodies that would finish inIronman, where you just would
(06:16):
look at them like how could youpossibly?
You know you did, they justdon't look like they could do it
.
So my point, I guess, with thisis this is you can accomplish so
much more than you think youcan, and so how do you get
yourself in that rhythm andthat's what we're talking about,
sort of daily rhythm.
(06:36):
So one of the things that Icertainly have relied on over
the course of my career has beenjournaling, and specifically a
type of journaling, promptjournaling.
I developed this promptjournaling after I listened to
Tim Ferriss many, many years agotalking about the five-minute
journal.
I went to buy that journal.
It was about an inch and a halfthick and, you know, an eight
(06:57):
and a half by 11.
I traveled, you know, threedays a week, and so I developed
this little sort of a succinct,little prompt journal that would
sit in my breast pocket.
It would travel with me all thetime.
It had 30 entries a month'sworth, and so I really do
believe in this idea of promptjournaling, of journaling daily
thoughts, and what do you keepyour mind attuned to?
(07:18):
Because that's what you'regoing to attract in your life,
and so you need to keep thatconstantly.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times I write.
Well, I want to swim, run, liftand I want to do this, this and
this, and then I go the nextday.
I'm like, ah, shit, I didn'tget any of those, but that's
okay.
I got another chance to do itand it's okay.
So I'll say this, which is, Iwould really encourage folks to
(07:41):
do some form of promptjournaling.
It's not, it's a different typeof journaling and it really,
really it's my secret life hack.
The other thing is set yourenvironment up for so that the
default behavior becomes alittle bit easier, and by that
you know again, simple example Iwant to live healthier, I want
to eat better.
(08:01):
Well, if your pantry is full ofsalty, sugary foods, you really
can't fault yourself fromgetting in there and gorging
yourself out and watching thatyou're binging some Netflix and
this.
I mean come on.
So so you got to set thatenvironment up so that default
is just a little bit easier.
And that really goes to theworkplace too.
I know a lot of folks arelistening in the workplace.
(08:22):
I mean, you know, get rid ofthe candy in the in the fricking
shop, you know.
And you know, get rid of thesodas, you know.
I mean you can't blame anyonefor doing these things.
So so it's just again.
So two things, which is thatdaily habit and then setting up
your environment.
So the default the healthier,the better choice, whatever that
choice is is easier.
(08:43):
Make it easier for yourself,because we all have feelings in
our own self-discipline and weneed a little help.
Jay Johnson (08:51):
I love that you bring that up because I'll be
honest with you.
So I just recently had somefriends, you know from longtime
friends.
They came and visited me hereand we had a nice, you know kind
of guys weekend together andthey brought chips and they
brought you know all kinds ofgoodies and when they left I'm
(09:12):
like y'all have to take thesewith you.
And they're like we brought, webrought them, like no, you
you've got to take these withyou because if you leave them
here I'm going to eat them.
I don't buy that literallybecause I know that it's 10
o'clock at night.
I'm hungry.
Oh, there's this bag of cornchips just sitting right there.
(09:32):
I'm just going to, you know,I'll have a couple.
Yeah, right, so I want to getinto this environmental design a
little bit more.
But before I do that, so theprompt journaling when you're
practicing this, is it more oflike?
I'm just going to let my mind?
You know you've got a prompt.
(09:52):
Whatever those prompts are,could you give an example of
what maybe some of the promptsmight look like?
And then do you just letyourself free flow?
Do you have an intentionalityof like?
I'm going to look back at thissix months from now.
What does that experience looklike for you, Jon?
Jon Sabes (10:07):
Yeah, you know it's very simple, you know it's and
it's short.
I mean it's just it's a tinylittle booklet and you know the
daily things.
I just, you know there's acouple of reminders in the
morning whether I do thesethings or not.
It's not all that.
I'm make my bed, drink somewater, get 10 reps in, like
(10:28):
those are little check marks Icould make.
I mean, I love this story.
If you can't make your bed, ifyou and this is all about
self-care and your own place ofof of, really I'll call worship
you.
Where you live is where youpractice your life.
So self-care is the first stepin caring for others.
If your place is in shambles,then how can you expect others
to help others?
And so I really, you know, Iwalk the walk, I talk the talk,
(10:51):
you know, and I really will comedown hard on people who I can
sniff it out pretty quick ifthey're not.
So what's my top three thingsfor the day?
Just list three things realquick, what I want to do today.
That could be really simple.
It could be anything you want.
You know what are my goals forthat today would be great if
today I'm grateful for today, Iaffirm myself that what I'm
(11:16):
going to be a great father.
I'm going to be a great leader.
I'm going to, I'm going to killit at this client event.
I'm going to.
I'm going to really impartvalue to the people I'm training
.
Whatever that is, affirmsomething you want to
self-affirm before you do whatit is you do.
And then and then, really it'sa day of reflection, which is
you can marvel every day atsomething.
I was marveled by what, andtoday could have been better.
(11:40):
If right, there's all we alwayscould have been.
You don't have to beat yourselfup, but I could have said that
you've learned from today, oryeah?
yeah, I could have you know.
So it's just a reminder.
So it was very simple.
And then there's some littleremind me notes go to the store,
pick up my mulch, plant myperennials, whatever it is, you
know, and then at the end of 30days there's a 30 day reflection
(12:02):
and there's some quotes andthere's the preamble for the
constitution and and there'sinstructions.
So you know it's very simple,you know you.
Just really, you know it's bitesize, there's only a little
place to write.
So you can't ramble on and on,although some people my friends
who have used these startscribbling all over the thing.
It's your self coach, you know I.
I know we've we talked abouthaving coaches and being coaches
(12:24):
and a lot of us are coaches,but this is my self-coach.
So when I look at that, I'mlike, oh, there, he is telling
me to do this, yelling me, youknow.
I know I perform better when mycoach is yelling at me.
I know I.
When I look at that little, I'mlike, oh, yeah, I should have
done this, I could have donethat better.
That's just just self-coachingyourself to what I like to say.
Keep your mind attuned to thatwhich you want to bring into
(12:46):
your life, because if you don'tdo that, others are tuning your
mind to what they want, and soyou either focus your mind and
your actions toward your life,or you will be impacted and you
will be moved by others.
Jay Johnson (13:01):
So now you've turned this into the Pursuit of
Happiness prompt journal, whichI did receive a copy and thank
you for that and it's somethingthat I have started to do and
we'll put the link to that inthe show notes.
So if you are interested in thePursuit of Happiness prompt
journal, that's definitelysomething to kind of elevate
your daily habits which leads tothat long-term success.
(13:24):
Now one of the things that Iwant to chat about is this
environmental design.
Now, you've led teams, you'vehelped them and as a visionary
and as an entrepreneur, I knowsometimes and I see this a lot
in entrepreneurship, so Iactually teach entrepreneurship.
I've spoken at a number ofentrepreneurship conferences
about behaviors and one of thebig challenges seems to be that
(13:47):
a lot of times the founder, thecreator, the owner, ends up
having this like large,expansive, beautiful vision, and
in some cases it's very, it canbe very difficult or I've at
least seen it be very, verydifficult for them to have, um,
to really kind of get, I guess,the team to align to, to really
(14:12):
align and I'm not saying alittle align right, like yeah,
of course, oh, wow, this is agreat idea, yeah, this is
awesome, but to not necessarilyget to that depth.
So, when you're talking aboutenvironmental design and we're
thinking about leading a teamthat maybe is on the same page
maybe they're not fully on thesame page what are some of the
(14:33):
ways in which case you've usedenvironmental design to maybe
elevate your team and to elevatetheir ability to essentially
accomplish the mission, toelevate their ability to
essentially accomplish themission?
Jon Sabes (14:46):
Great question.
And I've had instances where,you know, the team was
absolutely, you know, we werelocked, and then I've had, I've
had instances where the teamfell away and, you know,
convinced the board I should befired.
It's like what you know, likeyou know, um, and it's a very
interesting question, I, I guessI would say, you know, from one
(15:12):
of the ways in which I believeI did it is, you know, and it is
sort of, as you mentioned, inpursuit of happiness, prompt
journal, we all want to be happyin life.
We, every single person, wantsto be happy in life.
It is just, it is, as BenjaminFranklin said, the thing we are
all in pursuit of, and so it'ssort of like foundational to our
(15:32):
country and the creation ofAmerica and creating this
ability, these inalienablerights to pursue happiness, and
so recognizing that everyonewants to be happy, recognizing
everyone wants to succeed, Ithink where I've succeeded the
most is when I've created anenvironment that speaks to that
(15:55):
and creates an environment whereI actually teach it, where I
actually communicate.
What are those principles uponwhich happiness is built and how
can you, as a member of thisteam, pursue and seek and
achieve your own happiness, andI think that's where, that's
where I've succeeded and whereI've failed.
I've, I don't think I've donethat as well.
You know so, when, when, whenthis entrepreneur, who's
(16:17):
mercurial and can be veryimpatient and sees things, and
why don't you guys doing thiswith a sense of urgency?
You know, I, I think, I think,if, if, if the team knows you
better and and knows that youare really teaching them how to
achieve their own goals in life,then then they'll, they'll come
(16:38):
along with you a little bitharder than maybe if, if you
don't.
Jay Johnson (16:44):
And I love that because I think that it's that
autonomy and that sort ofindependence that people feel
when they're pursuing maybe somekind of like higher level
function or some kind of higherlevel, something bigger than
themselves, something that'screating that legacy.
But if it's micromanaged or ifit's one of those situations
(17:10):
where it's like you must do X, yand Z this way, that's where I
often see that going off therails.
You know, from an environmentalperspective, one of the things
that I've always I've alwaysreally enjoyed is bringing into
some of the conversation of whatwould you like to, what do you
want out of this?
Because you know a lot ofpeople.
I think initially a paycheck,well, yeah, of course, but what
do you as an individual?
The paycheck will run outunless you're investing it and
(17:33):
obviously making their.
But what is it that you want?
And even you know finding someof those different spaces, or
you know kind of innovating waysto bring some of those desires
into the workplace.
Seemingly for me, at least withthe team that I have when they
tell me hey, I want to learnthis, all right, well, we're
going to start doing that.
Let's see what that looks likefor you, so kind of creating
(17:56):
that space for openness.
Now and I'm going to ask youthis, because I'm going to ask
you this as I perceive you as anexpert in this space what is
happiness to you?
How would you define space?
What is happiness to you?
How would you define it?
What does it look like?
And I know it might bedifferent for other people, but
I'd love to hear kind of yourperspective on that.
Jon Sabes (18:17):
I mean, I was happy.
This is.
I'll tell you what it's not.
It's not a destination, it'snot.
It's not hedonic pursuits sohedonic are just sort of
self-indulgent, narcissisticbehaviors.
Happiness is the journey, it'sthe experience and it's virtuous
.
You know, there are virtuousactivities that lead to everyone
(18:42):
getting more of what they want.
It's a place of abundance, it'snot a place of scarcity and
it's a place of freedom, because, like you said, everyone's
definition for happiness is justa little bit different.
But I would just say it's thejourney that we're on and I
would suggest that we're all onthat journey, whether we are
(19:05):
consciously aware of it or not.
And so sometimes and that's whyI don't micromanage people I, I
, I can sit.
I know you're on a journey to behappy, whether you know it or
not.
There's another, there's awhole nother story.
But I know that you've chosencoffee over tea, acdc over
Beethoven, a Ferrari over aCorvette, because these things
bring you happiness.
(19:26):
You are consistently makingchoices to bring more happiness
into your life.
So how can I help you do moreof that?
And by doing that, I'm going togive you in the employment
context, I'm giving you apaycheck, I'm creating
prosperity for you and yourfamily.
That is just an overridingrequirement, for happiness is to
(19:47):
have some level of prosperity.
I mean you mentioned as apaycheck.
But yeah, I'm providingprosperity and I'm creating an
opportunity for you to grow, notonly here, but way beyond here.
This won't be the last job youever have, but if I can teach
you skills, I can give you lifeskills, life-changing skills in
a place on which you can takefor the rest of your life and
(20:08):
add value while you're here,then I've done my job and that's
how I've gotten the bestperformance out of my teams,
when they know I'm doing that,and sometimes that's kind of
radical honesty, radicaltransparency, but just it is
what it is.
Jay Johnson (20:26):
It seems to me that there's a lot of wisdom in the
concept of the pursuit ofhappiness at that point in time,
rather than the destination ofhappiness.
So talk to me about this,because I know what some people
could be thinking.
All right, and I'm going to putthis in the context of the
Ironman there's no way I wouldfeel happy punishing my body day
(20:48):
in, day out to prepare forsomething like the Ironman
triathlon.
And I see people in some caseswhere, whatever their goal is,
the goal is what keeps themgoing, not the daily habits or
not the things that's gettingthem to that.
How do you balance thatmotivation of sort of staying
goal focused but also enjoyingthe journey of sometimes pain,
(21:12):
sometimes discomfort, because togrow we got to step outside of
our comfort zone.
So some people don't look atthat and say, well, that pursuit
, it's the end game that's goingto make me happy.
But how do you shift that?
How do you balance that?
And is there a balance betweenthat sort of pain during the
pursuit and the experience ofaccomplishing or even sometimes
(21:35):
failing?
What are your thoughts on that,Jon?
Jon Sabes (21:53):
gets to any goal, a meaningful goal, they quickly
find that it becomes very empty.
You know, and so it is thejourney.
And where there's pain, youknow life.
Unless you're the exception tothe rule and I like to speak to
most of us I know there'soutliers, but if you're like me,
you're going to have lots ofchallenges in your life.
You're going to have some painin your life.
I mean, it's just reallydifficult to get through life
without massive challenges andpain.
(22:15):
So that's just part of life andyou need to understand that
those are opportunities to growand to persevere.
The road continues beyond thismoment, this too will pass, and
so, like just understanding, Ithink Ironman, for me anyways,
was just a way to understandthat the road's going to
(22:36):
continue.
When it felt hard, when it feltI can't keep going, I why could
you know?
And just but just keep goingwith one foot in front of the
other, and I think, whether it'sa 5k or 10k or wherever you're
at in your own journey, I thinkthose are terrific opportunities
to kind of test that mentalresiliency of like this is hard,
(22:58):
but I'm just going to keepgoing and you will get to the
end of the 5k.
You will get to the end of the10k, you know.
And so when you learn that, itreally strengthens you in the
rest of your journey, becauseyou're going to face it, whether
it's in your professional life,your personal life, if you're
like me, all of the above, butthat's okay.
(23:20):
Again, it's this individualjourney we're on and you're well
served to test your, yourresiliency, and just to keep
going.
And, and once you achieve thegoal, you, you, you keep going,
you find a new one yeah, I lovethat.
Jay Johnson (23:37):
So, all right, let's kind of take this into the
realm a little bit of the realmof neuroscience and psychology
here.
Uh, I'm thinking, you know,when you read something like
Thinking Fast and Thinking Slowby Daniel Kahneman and Amos
Tversky.
We know that the brain has alot of cognitive shortcuts.
We have a number of differentways in which we have created
(24:00):
the conditions of bias, and oneof those biases is against or I
guess it would be more towardsinstant gratification, and I
think a lot of us live our livesin this space of instant
gratification, even though it'sprobably fairly well known now
that if I save money today, I'llhave way more later on down my
(24:23):
life.
But that's still a big thing.
So I'm going to put this in thecontext of wealth, prosperity,
essentially financial success,because I know that that's one
of the areas that you lead andcoach in.
So from a, let's just say, ageneralized, we know that kids
who are able to delaygratification for a number for
(24:44):
an extended period of timemeasure them out over the course
of their lives.
They are more successful.
They are then the person that'sgoing to take the dollar today
versus $10 10 weeks from now,and there's all kinds of
different algorithmic,behavioral economics behind.
You know how big is the rewardin the distance, how long is the
distance, and so on and soforth.
So, without getting into all ofthat complexity, how can we
(25:08):
better prepare ourselves toavoid the concept of instant
gratification and impulsiveness?
And journaling is obviously onething that we can do to be
satisfied in our daily life andhave gratitude for where we're
at now.
But let's be real.
If you tell me I'm going togive you $100 today or I'll give
(25:30):
you $200 a year from now, mostpeople are going to want the
$100 today, even though theother is a good bet.
What are your thoughts?
Jon Sabes (25:43):
Is that the marshmallow experiment, the kids
?
With the marshmallows.
That's the class.
It's's a great one.
Jay Johnson (25:48):
The kids who could delay not taking the marshmallow
I'll give you and for anybodythat doesn't know is I'll give
you one marshmallow right now.
Or, if you can wait, you'll gettwo marshmallows at a
significant you know, at a laterpoint in time.
And and they've measuredeverything from uh, in an hour,
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a day.
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a day.
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a week.
(26:10):
I'll give you two marshmallows,and the longer the distance,
the less likely that they'regoing to delay the gratification
, the larger the reward canimpact.
How you know how long they'rewilling to wait.
I'll give you 100 marshmallowsthree days from now.
Okay, well, I'm definitelygoing to take the hundred three
days from now than the one rightnow.
So there's all kinds ofpermutations on that, and
(26:33):
they've done that with differentexperiments too with money,
with investments and things, tosee how adults react to it.
And the reality is is most ofus are wired to take what we can
get today.
So how do we avoid that, or howdo we teach people to avoid
that?
Jon Sabes (26:49):
Yeah, I think the one way again.
I write a lot about this Again.
Longevity, financial partnersis my latest venture.
I'm in this whole longevityspace.
I've been here for a while.
I think the key is and you'vetouched on it is thinking
greater than self.
First of all, I mean you haveto think greater than self.
(27:09):
If you're not thinking greaterthan self, then why not?
Then why not take themarshmallow, then why not take
the hundred bucks, run over tothe liquor store and hit it?
I mean so you have to expandyour scope of sort of, your view
of the, the, it meaning it'sjust not me.
(27:30):
And even even though you maythink, well, it kind of still is
just me, isn't it?
Yes, but there are, when youtake, call it, negative steps,
you, you're causing pain onothers, you're, you're creating
what call waves of negativitywithin within your, within your
life, and so so one way, sort ofjust on a daily basis, is just,
(27:54):
just, we'll go back to thatvirtue versus hedonic behavior.
You know, opt for the virtuouschoice because it's going to,
it's going to create positiveripples around you.
But at the end of the day,right, it's this longevity, how
long we are on this planet, isthe most finite asset we have.
(28:14):
And when we are 70, and when weare 80, and, god willing, when
we're 90, or even 100, right,that's, I just covered 30, 40
plus years of life.
And and you really want to thinkof your older self, you know,
think of what you could do today, cause you're going to be that
older self Okay, god, you're,you're going to be some version
(28:38):
of that and when you're on yourdeathbed, you want to be able to
look back and say my life hasbeen a dream and you really, you
know, and that's a, that'swhere, where you want to be.
And so think about, maybe, that,even if it's just you, your
older self, I like to phrase itwhat would you tell your younger
self to do today?
You know so that when you metyour 80 or 90 year old self, he
(28:59):
or she gives you a big hug andgoes man, thanks for doing that,
because it made a differenceover here.
You know, and you will bereliant on others, you will have
less energy, you will be frail,and so think about even
yourself and think about howyou'll impact others in that, in
, in, in that phase of life, andmaybe that will make those
(29:21):
healthier, better choices alittle bit more, less painful,
and because you can, you can see.
It's just about you now and howyou're going to feel and how
the people you love are going tofeel about you.
Jay Johnson (29:33):
Well, I think that really I mean that lands for me
and resonates right Mostorganizations.
One of the things that theywant to do is hey, this is how
your behavior contributes to theoverall good.
You know whether that's yourmission, vision, values, or you
know how your?
You know whether that's yourmission, vision, values, or you
know how your.
You know work on a daily basisends up impacting the end
consumer.
(29:54):
So this is something that weteach in organizational
development too is yourbehaviors, at that sort of micro
level, end up having a macroeffect that's much larger than
what it is.
So, keeping that in mind cankind of say hey, you know, even
though I'm just pushing thisbutton, by pushing this button,
that's actually savingsomebody's life at the other end
(30:16):
of this.
You know production line orwhatever else that is.
So that really lands and thatmakes a lot of sense, as we're
trying to.
You know what are some of thebig challenges that you've
experienced in helping peoplesee that long term, like what
are some of the blocks orbarriers that maybe have come up
as a resistance point to?
Yeah, Jon, I mean that allmakes sense, but I got to watch
(30:39):
out for number one, because Isee a lot of watching out for
number one nowadays, especiallywith workforce engagements and
everything else.
So how, what are some of thosebarriers and what have you done
to maybe overcome those amongstyour teams?
Jon Sabes (30:56):
That's a big challenge, um, and and it's
that's a really hard thing toget people to look past.
Uh, looking out for themselves,only themselves.
Um Gosh, I don't know that Ihave a solve for you right here
on this podcast, but I guess youknow it's really.
It's look, when you take careof yourself, you're even I'll go
back to this when you take careof yourself, when you, when you
(31:19):
do self-care versus self-harm,when you work really hard at
your job and do it really well,even though it's just for you,
because you want to get that job, you want to get that promotion
, you're, you're contributing tothe organization in a
phenomenal sort of way.
So, as long as you're not doingit, I would say with negativity
, and you're beating.
You know you're doing things.
(31:41):
I'll use this hedonic sort ofyou know analogy in you know
you're backstabbing, it's fine,I'm fine with someone throwing
it down and working their assoff and and and being like yeah,
I'm getting that job, sorry.
So you know like I hate that asan entrepreneur, I hate
organizations who you know willsay you know, he's working too
(32:02):
hard, right, he's making me lookbad, like.
That to me, is just like oh myGod, that sort of organization
is the one I'm just like.
So so I think I think it's OK,you know, to to be.
It's about me, it's all about me, it's about my prosperity, but
I'd also say it's about myhealth.
It's about my mental health andit's about the mental health of
(32:23):
those that I'm around.
So it's not OK to do that andcreate harm.
You know or not.
You know, click a wire orsomething that causes some
product to have a malfunction,and you know.
So it's within that context.
But I say, go for it, man, justgo, go for it.
It is about you, you know.
But you can do that in a waythat is creating positive
(32:47):
positivity around everything youdo.
So that's.
I don't think those two thingsneed to be, you know, at odds.
I think people misunderstandthat because they get in these
organizations Well, he's workingtoo hard and he's competing too
hard.
We're like, well, that's kindof what it's about, you know, at
the end of the day, well, and Ilike that.
Jay Johnson (33:08):
And I think what I'm hearing inside of that
message is do it for you, butalso be a decent human while
you're doing it, it's no harm.
But at the same time, sort oflike when I see selfishness or I
(33:29):
see a lot of this sort of likeI'm just in it for me type thing
I think it's because of some ofthat, I really don't care about
what impact I'm having oneverybody else around me.
So if I'm going to draw thatinsight out of you, it's more of
a balance.
It's like, yeah, do it for you,but recognize that by doing it
for you, you're also should becontributing to everybody else
(33:52):
around you, and I think thatgoes to your abundance mentality
thought.
Jon Sabes (33:55):
Yeah, if you're doing , look, no one likes a dirty
player on us.
You know, use a sport analogyno one, no one, likes that dirty
player on the team, right?
But everyone loves a MichaelJordan, you know they, even
though he's so hard to deal with.
And if he's a, if you're a highperformer, I mean you just got
to acknowledge performance, youknow, and but but don't be dirty
(34:16):
about it, don't be mean.
There's no reason to be mean.
Being mean is, is not a goodthing, you know.
Don't, don't allow your mind toto go there.
Jay Johnson (34:26):
So, Jon, I would ask this if, if, in the concept
of scarcity and abundance, whenwe start to think about it, I
think most people want to be inthat mindset of abundance, but
then all of a sudden we start toget that tinge of but if Jon
wins, then that means I'm goingto lose.
Or if you get this promotionand I'm not going to get this
(34:48):
promotion, how do you help coachpeople sort of away from that
perspective?
Jon Sabes (34:55):
Yeah, that's again, that's a tough one.
I mean you just have torecognize that we live in just
an incredible abundant world.
I mean, if you're in the UnitedStates and you're working here
or North America, I mean youhave so much abundance.
It is ridiculous, okay, youhave so much opportunity.
It is ridiculous.
(35:16):
And so I would say, if youfeeling that way, that's more
about you.
You know, if that person gotthe promotion, I mean let's
hopefully they they really diddeserve it because they were the
Michael Jordan.
It was clear they there was thelaw of contrast.
They were the ones who did it.
They sacrificed their weekendsor this or that.
They gave it all.
So I mean you just got tounderstand that.
(35:40):
You know and resolve that if youwant more, if you want that,
you're going to have to givemore.
You know life's a series oftrade-offs and maybe you want it
but you're not willing to dowhat it takes to get it.
Or maybe you're just creatingyourself up for the next
opportunity.
Maybe that wasn't the rightthing.
So so again, this goes back tothe road always continues.
(36:03):
This is not probably going tobe the last job you ever have.
So you have these opportunitiesto learn, to set yourself up
for success.
And and I just, I'm a big, youknow, you know work like hell.
You know, just, you gotta giveit and I don't care what job
you're doing.
There is so much opportunityand creativity.
And to you know, I like to say,it's just, you know, the, the,
(36:26):
the, the.
The cleanliness of your officereflects in the in, in the mind
of your customer.
I mean, you know, just cleanthe office, just do it, not
because anyone asked you, justdo it because it looks better.
You know, I mean, so there'sjust so much to do and and I
guess it's it's.
Maybe people don't want to hearthat, but that's what, that's
what the real world takes.
Jay Johnson (36:46):
No, I love that Cause.
I think it's that shift into agrowth mindset rather than a
fixed mindset.
Right, it's hey, if I didn'tget this, what could I have done
differently?
What can I learn from thisexperience?
How will I get it the next timethat this comes around and
really kind of thinking aboutwhat are my next steps?
Because, you're right, I've hadthe fortunate privilege to
(37:07):
travel to about 39 differentcountries and when you talk
about opportunities, especiallyin North America, they are
abundant.
There's definitelyopportunities no one's stuck
where they're at but it doesrequire a growth mindset to try
to see those opportunities orsee how I could fit in the
future, even if I'm not thereright at this moment.
(37:29):
Jon, this has been a reallyinsightful conversation.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you and hear more
about the things that you'redoing, or into some of the
different products, how wouldthey reach out to?
Jon Sabes (37:40):
you?
Sure, jay, it's Jon, Jon.
I'm on all the social mediaplatforms.
You can engage with me there.
My book is healthy, wealthylongevity talks about health and
longevity and what does aginglook like, and it also talks
about prosperity and being anentrepreneur and working and
(38:03):
then self-mastery.
So if these things you know,you want to learn more, I highly
encourage you to pick up thebook it's on Amazon and engage
with me, however.
However, the prompt journalsare on my website and um love to
come back, jay.
Do it for 30, 60 days.
Let's see.
Let's see how it worked.
Jay Johnson (38:22):
I love it.
So I uh, I will definitely betaking that up and uh can
committing to that.
So I'm making that commitmentright here, right now, on the
Talent Forge, Jon, and we'll seewhere we land.
But I just want to say thankyou, because it's always
refreshing to have aconversation with somebody that
(38:42):
has that sort of growthmentality, that sort of forward
thinking where are we going toland and what are we going to
learn along the way?
Because I think in a lot ofcases we become so destination
focused that we forget about allof the incredible experience
and learning opportunitiesthrough the pursuit of whatever
it is the pursuit of goals,pursuit of happiness or pursuit
(39:03):
of the Ironman Wow, it's stillimpressive to me.
So I just want to say thank youfor coming on and sharing your
perspective and giving us someinsights into that space.
Jon Sabes (39:12):
Thanks, jay, great to be here.
Love the podcast, appreciateyou.
Jay Johnson (39:16):
Thank you and thank you, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the Talent Forge, where together we're shaping
the future of training anddevelopment.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
I am joined by special guestJon Sabes.
Welcome to the show, Jon.
Thanks, jay, great to be hereNow.
You have an incredible storyand I would love to tell it for
you.
But since you're here, Ifigured I'd ask you why don't
you introduce yourself to theaudience and tell them a little
(00:21):
bit about how you got into thistalent development space?
Jon Sabes (00:24):
the audience and tell them a little bit about how you
got into this talentdevelopment space.
Sure Well, I guess I'm a serialentrepreneur.
I've been kind of doingentrepreneurial stuff for almost
two decades now and builtseveral companies and had some
just incredible success and somemassive challenges, as every
entrepreneur really does, yeah.
(00:44):
So my journey's no exception tothe rule and I guess, yeah, I've
had the chance to lead teamsand develop teams and have teams
fall away from me and teamsfall in behind me, so it's
definitely such an incrediblepart of the journey.
(01:05):
So, yeah, my journey as aserial entrepreneur in financial
services over two decades I'vebuilt several companies, gone
public, been listed, had exits.
I've done a lot.
I'm always in the sort oflongevity space, financial
services space, which kind ofdeveloped this sort of again
this career into healthylongevity and financial services
(01:28):
, life insurance, annuities,financial products and services.
So that's kind of my specialty.
I also got into molecularbiomarkers of health and
longevity through that, with atech spinoff on that.
So I became sort of aself-learned expert in
epigenetic aging, uh, geneexpression and and how does this
(01:50):
uh beautiful body called,called the human, you know,
actually function?
Jay Johnson (01:55):
Oh, now you're speaking my language when we
start getting into the genetics,epigenetics and all the fun
stuff of uh, neurobiology andall those different impacts.
But one of the things thatreally attracted me to having
this conversation with you waspartially from your personal
philosophy.
I really loved when I read justan excerpt.
(02:16):
Success in life comes fromsmall, consistent efforts made
upstream that lead tosignificant downstream effects,
whether in health, wealth orpersonal fulfillment, and you
apply that through your dailylife through discipline regimen.
That includes journaling,strength training, healthy
eating and sauna.
I'm a big sauna fan myself.
(02:37):
I knew we'd get along andespecially, you know, in these
northern climates it's anecessity.
So I want to talk about thatfirst, if we can, Jon.
What do you mean by these small, consistent efforts made
upstream?
Jon Sabes (02:52):
Yeah, when we talk about small again, how do we
swallow the whale One bite at atime?
So how do we affect this dreamlife that we're all on our own
journey and we all want to buildthis beautiful life of our own
design.
And the way we're going to dothat, right, is only by small,
little increments of betterment,right.
(03:13):
And so if we attack our goalsand objectives in life in small
bits, right, you get there.
And so that's kind of this ideawhere I think too often we try,
we have these big dreams, thesebig goals, and we feel like we
so quickly can get disappointedin the progress, because it
(03:37):
takes a long time to accomplishbig things, and so it's much
easier to accomplish smallerthings.
And if you direct your thoughtsand your actions towards those
smaller things in these positivedirections, whether they be in
your business, in your mentalattitude, whether your own
health, what I like to say isyou increase the odds, you
(03:59):
increase the probability thatyou get where you want, and
that's where I'm writing to.
So it's these small actions,and you have to program your
subconscious so this stuffbecomes almost automatic in
these directional habits towardsbuilding a life of your dreams,
and that's kind of what I'mtalking about.
Jay Johnson (04:19):
And see, I love that because in so many cases,
especially in the field oftalent development, immediately
we, you know, all right, what dowe need to fix?
We need to fix communication,and communication can be, you
know, especially in the businessworld.
That is the Ironman whichyou've run five impressive, by
the way but like, that is theIronman.
(04:40):
And when we're developing atraining or when we're
developing some kind of learningopportunity, it seems to me
that we're always thinking aboutthe top of the mountain and
we're not thinking about thesteps that it takes to get to
the top of the mountain.
So let me ask you this questionAll of us have these large
ambitions, these large goals.
(05:01):
How are you able to essentiallykeep yourself focused on the
daily habits when you're lookingup at the top of the mountain?
It's got to be something thateverybody, when we experience it
, we look at our goals and justlike, oh my gosh, it's so far
off, retirement is so far off,communication is so far off.
(05:21):
How have you personally beenable to kind of keep yourself in
that present moment, to befocused on those smaller things
that are going to make along-term impact?
Jon Sabes (05:32):
Yeah, I think a couple of things to contribute
there.
First of all, I'm not asdisciplined as I might look.
I don't want to.
I have all the failings thatprobably every other listener
has out there as well.
So don't feel like you know,you need to have some sort of
super self-discipline toaccomplish these things.
(05:54):
You know you mentioned Ironmanand I have done five Ironman
triathlon events and I've alwayswas amazed by what we call the
midnight finishers.
You have to finish Ironman bymidnight and otherwise they cut
off.
They cut the finish off, and Iwas always amazed by these
bodies that would finish inIronman, where you just would
(06:16):
look at them like how could youpossibly?
You know you did, they justdon't look like they could do it
.
So my point, I guess, with thisis this is you can accomplish so
much more than you think youcan, and so how do you get
yourself in that rhythm andthat's what we're talking about,
sort of daily rhythm.
(06:36):
So one of the things that Icertainly have relied on over
the course of my career has beenjournaling, and specifically a
type of journaling, promptjournaling.
I developed this promptjournaling after I listened to
Tim Ferriss many, many years agotalking about the five-minute
journal.
I went to buy that journal.
It was about an inch and a halfthick and, you know, an eight
(06:57):
and a half by 11.
I traveled, you know, threedays a week, and so I developed
this little sort of a succinct,little prompt journal that would
sit in my breast pocket.
It would travel with me all thetime.
It had 30 entries a month'sworth, and so I really do
believe in this idea of promptjournaling, of journaling daily
thoughts, and what do you keepyour mind attuned to?
(07:18):
Because that's what you'regoing to attract in your life,
and so you need to keep thatconstantly.
I mean, I can't tell you howmany times I write.
Well, I want to swim, run, liftand I want to do this, this and
this, and then I go the nextday.
I'm like, ah, shit, I didn'tget any of those, but that's
okay.
I got another chance to do itand it's okay.
So I'll say this, which is, Iwould really encourage folks to
(07:41):
do some form of promptjournaling.
It's not, it's a different typeof journaling and it really,
really it's my secret life hack.
The other thing is set yourenvironment up for so that the
default behavior becomes alittle bit easier, and by that
you know again, simple example Iwant to live healthier, I want
to eat better.
(08:01):
Well, if your pantry is full ofsalty, sugary foods, you really
can't fault yourself fromgetting in there and gorging
yourself out and watching thatyou're binging some Netflix and
this.
I mean come on.
So so you got to set thatenvironment up so that default
is just a little bit easier.
And that really goes to theworkplace too.
I know a lot of folks arelistening in the workplace.
(08:22):
I mean, you know, get rid ofthe candy in the in the fricking
shop, you know.
And you know, get rid of thesodas, you know.
I mean you can't blame anyonefor doing these things.
So so it's just again.
So two things, which is thatdaily habit and then setting up
your environment.
So the default the healthier,the better choice, whatever that
choice is is easier.
(08:43):
Make it easier for yourself,because we all have feelings in
our own self-discipline and weneed a little help.
Jay Johnson (08:51):
I love that you bring that up because I'll be
honest with you.
So I just recently had somefriends, you know from longtime
friends.
They came and visited me hereand we had a nice, you know kind
of guys weekend together andthey brought chips and they
brought you know all kinds ofgoodies and when they left I'm
(09:12):
like y'all have to take thesewith you.
And they're like we brought, webrought them, like no, you
you've got to take these withyou because if you leave them
here I'm going to eat them.
I don't buy that literallybecause I know that it's 10
o'clock at night.
I'm hungry.
Oh, there's this bag of cornchips just sitting right there.
(09:32):
I'm just going to, you know,I'll have a couple.
Yeah, right, so I want to getinto this environmental design a
little bit more.
But before I do that, so theprompt journaling when you're
practicing this, is it more oflike?
I'm just going to let my mind?
You know you've got a prompt.
(09:52):
Whatever those prompts are,could you give an example of
what maybe some of the promptsmight look like?
And then do you just letyourself free flow?
Do you have an intentionalityof like?
I'm going to look back at thissix months from now.
What does that experience looklike for you, Jon?
Jon Sabes (10:07):
Yeah, you know it's very simple, you know it's and
it's short.
I mean it's just it's a tinylittle booklet and you know the
daily things.
I just, you know there's acouple of reminders in the
morning whether I do thesethings or not.
It's not all that.
I'm make my bed, drink somewater, get 10 reps in, like
(10:28):
those are little check marks Icould make.
I mean, I love this story.
If you can't make your bed, ifyou and this is all about
self-care and your own place ofof of, really I'll call worship
you.
Where you live is where youpractice your life.
So self-care is the first stepin caring for others.
If your place is in shambles,then how can you expect others
to help others?
And so I really, you know, Iwalk the walk, I talk the talk,
(10:51):
you know, and I really will comedown hard on people who I can
sniff it out pretty quick ifthey're not.
So what's my top three thingsfor the day?
Just list three things realquick, what I want to do today.
That could be really simple.
It could be anything you want.
You know what are my goals forthat today would be great if
today I'm grateful for today, Iaffirm myself that what I'm
(11:16):
going to be a great father.
I'm going to be a great leader.
I'm going to, I'm going to killit at this client event.
I'm going to.
I'm going to really impartvalue to the people I'm training
.
Whatever that is, affirmsomething you want to
self-affirm before you do whatit is you do.
And then and then, really it'sa day of reflection, which is
you can marvel every day atsomething.
I was marveled by what, andtoday could have been better.
(11:40):
If right, there's all we alwayscould have been.
You don't have to beat yourselfup, but I could have said that
you've learned from today, oryeah?
yeah, I could have you know.
So it's just a reminder.
So it was very simple.
And then there's some littleremind me notes go to the store,
pick up my mulch, plant myperennials, whatever it is, you
know, and then at the end of 30days there's a 30 day reflection
(12:02):
and there's some quotes andthere's the preamble for the
constitution and and there'sinstructions.
So you know it's very simple,you know you.
Just really, you know it's bitesize, there's only a little
place to write.
So you can't ramble on and on,although some people my friends
who have used these startscribbling all over the thing.
It's your self coach, you know I.
I know we've we talked abouthaving coaches and being coaches
(12:24):
and a lot of us are coaches,but this is my self-coach.
So when I look at that, I'mlike, oh, there, he is telling
me to do this, yelling me, youknow.
I know I perform better when mycoach is yelling at me.
I know I.
When I look at that little, I'mlike, oh, yeah, I should have
done this, I could have donethat better.
That's just just self-coachingyourself to what I like to say.
Keep your mind attuned to thatwhich you want to bring into
(12:46):
your life, because if you don'tdo that, others are tuning your
mind to what they want, and soyou either focus your mind and
your actions toward your life,or you will be impacted and you
will be moved by others.
Jay Johnson (13:01):
So now you've turned this into the Pursuit of
Happiness prompt journal, whichI did receive a copy and thank
you for that and it's somethingthat I have started to do and
we'll put the link to that inthe show notes.
So if you are interested in thePursuit of Happiness prompt
journal, that's definitelysomething to kind of elevate
your daily habits which leads tothat long-term success.
(13:24):
Now one of the things that Iwant to chat about is this
environmental design.
Now, you've led teams, you'vehelped them and as a visionary
and as an entrepreneur, I knowsometimes and I see this a lot
in entrepreneurship, so Iactually teach entrepreneurship.
I've spoken at a number ofentrepreneurship conferences
about behaviors and one of thebig challenges seems to be that
(13:47):
a lot of times the founder, thecreator, the owner, ends up
having this like large,expansive, beautiful vision, and
in some cases it's very, it canbe very difficult or I've at
least seen it be very, verydifficult for them to have, um,
to really kind of get, I guess,the team to align to, to really
(14:12):
align and I'm not saying alittle align right, like yeah,
of course, oh, wow, this is agreat idea, yeah, this is
awesome, but to not necessarilyget to that depth.
So, when you're talking aboutenvironmental design and we're
thinking about leading a teamthat maybe is on the same page
maybe they're not fully on thesame page what are some of the
(14:33):
ways in which case you've usedenvironmental design to maybe
elevate your team and to elevatetheir ability to essentially
accomplish the mission, toelevate their ability to
essentially accomplish themission?
Jon Sabes (14:46):
Great question.
And I've had instances where,you know, the team was
absolutely, you know, we werelocked, and then I've had, I've
had instances where the teamfell away and, you know,
convinced the board I should befired.
It's like what you know, likeyou know, um, and it's a very
interesting question, I, I guessI would say, you know, from one
(15:12):
of the ways in which I believeI did it is, you know, and it is
sort of, as you mentioned, inpursuit of happiness, prompt
journal, we all want to be happyin life.
We, every single person, wantsto be happy in life.
It is just, it is, as BenjaminFranklin said, the thing we are
all in pursuit of, and so it'ssort of like foundational to our
(15:32):
country and the creation ofAmerica and creating this
ability, these inalienablerights to pursue happiness, and
so recognizing that everyonewants to be happy, recognizing
everyone wants to succeed, Ithink where I've succeeded the
most is when I've created anenvironment that speaks to that
(15:55):
and creates an environment whereI actually teach it, where I
actually communicate.
What are those principles uponwhich happiness is built and how
can you, as a member of thisteam, pursue and seek and
achieve your own happiness, andI think that's where, that's
where I've succeeded and whereI've failed.
I've, I don't think I've donethat as well.
You know so, when, when, whenthis entrepreneur, who's
(16:17):
mercurial and can be veryimpatient and sees things, and
why don't you guys doing thiswith a sense of urgency?
You know, I, I think, I think,if, if, if the team knows you
better and and knows that youare really teaching them how to
achieve their own goals in life,then then they'll, they'll come
(16:38):
along with you a little bitharder than maybe if, if you
don't.
Jay Johnson (16:44):
And I love that because I think that it's that
autonomy and that sort ofindependence that people feel
when they're pursuing maybe somekind of like higher level
function or some kind of higherlevel, something bigger than
themselves, something that'screating that legacy.
But if it's micromanaged or ifit's one of those situations
(17:10):
where it's like you must do X, yand Z this way, that's where I
often see that going off therails.
You know, from an environmentalperspective, one of the things
that I've always I've alwaysreally enjoyed is bringing into
some of the conversation of whatwould you like to, what do you
want out of this?
Because you know a lot ofpeople.
I think initially a paycheck,well, yeah, of course, but what
do you as an individual?
The paycheck will run outunless you're investing it and
(17:33):
obviously making their.
But what is it that you want?
And even you know finding someof those different spaces, or
you know kind of innovating waysto bring some of those desires
into the workplace.
Seemingly for me, at least withthe team that I have when they
tell me hey, I want to learnthis, all right, well, we're
going to start doing that.
Let's see what that looks likefor you, so kind of creating
(17:56):
that space for openness.
Now and I'm going to ask youthis, because I'm going to ask
you this as I perceive you as anexpert in this space what is
happiness to you?
How would you define space?
What is happiness to you?
How would you define it?
What does it look like?
And I know it might bedifferent for other people, but
I'd love to hear kind of yourperspective on that.
Jon Sabes (18:17):
I mean, I was happy.
This is.
I'll tell you what it's not.
It's not a destination, it'snot.
It's not hedonic pursuits sohedonic are just sort of
self-indulgent, narcissisticbehaviors.
Happiness is the journey, it'sthe experience and it's virtuous
.
You know, there are virtuousactivities that lead to everyone
(18:42):
getting more of what they want.
It's a place of abundance, it'snot a place of scarcity and
it's a place of freedom, because, like you said, everyone's
definition for happiness is justa little bit different.
But I would just say it's thejourney that we're on and I
would suggest that we're all onthat journey, whether we are
(19:05):
consciously aware of it or not.
And so sometimes and that's whyI don't micromanage people I, I
, I can sit.
I know you're on a journey to behappy, whether you know it or
not.
There's another, there's awhole nother story.
But I know that you've chosencoffee over tea, acdc over
Beethoven, a Ferrari over aCorvette, because these things
bring you happiness.
(19:26):
You are consistently makingchoices to bring more happiness
into your life.
So how can I help you do moreof that?
And by doing that, I'm going togive you in the employment
context, I'm giving you apaycheck, I'm creating
prosperity for you and yourfamily.
That is just an overridingrequirement, for happiness is to
(19:47):
have some level of prosperity.
I mean you mentioned as apaycheck.
But yeah, I'm providingprosperity and I'm creating an
opportunity for you to grow, notonly here, but way beyond here.
This won't be the last job youever have, but if I can teach
you skills, I can give you lifeskills, life-changing skills in
a place on which you can takefor the rest of your life and
(20:08):
add value while you're here,then I've done my job and that's
how I've gotten the bestperformance out of my teams,
when they know I'm doing that,and sometimes that's kind of
radical honesty, radicaltransparency, but just it is
what it is.
Jay Johnson (20:26):
It seems to me that there's a lot of wisdom in the
concept of the pursuit ofhappiness at that point in time,
rather than the destination ofhappiness.
So talk to me about this,because I know what some people
could be thinking.
All right, and I'm going to putthis in the context of the
Ironman there's no way I wouldfeel happy punishing my body day
(20:48):
in, day out to prepare forsomething like the Ironman
triathlon.
And I see people in some caseswhere, whatever their goal is,
the goal is what keeps themgoing, not the daily habits or
not the things that's gettingthem to that.
How do you balance thatmotivation of sort of staying
goal focused but also enjoyingthe journey of sometimes pain,
(21:12):
sometimes discomfort, because togrow we got to step outside of
our comfort zone.
So some people don't look atthat and say, well, that pursuit
, it's the end game that's goingto make me happy.
But how do you shift that?
How do you balance that?
And is there a balance betweenthat sort of pain during the
pursuit and the experience ofaccomplishing or even sometimes
(21:35):
failing?
What are your thoughts on that,Jon?
Jon Sabes (21:53):
gets to any goal, a meaningful goal, they quickly
find that it becomes very empty.
You know, and so it is thejourney.
And where there's pain, youknow life.
Unless you're the exception tothe rule and I like to speak to
most of us I know there'soutliers, but if you're like me,
you're going to have lots ofchallenges in your life.
You're going to have some painin your life.
I mean, it's just reallydifficult to get through life
without massive challenges andpain.
(22:15):
So that's just part of life andyou need to understand that
those are opportunities to growand to persevere.
The road continues beyond thismoment, this too will pass, and
so, like just understanding, Ithink Ironman, for me anyways,
was just a way to understandthat the road's going to
(22:36):
continue.
When it felt hard, when it feltI can't keep going, I why could
you know?
And just but just keep goingwith one foot in front of the
other, and I think, whether it'sa 5k or 10k or wherever you're
at in your own journey, I thinkthose are terrific opportunities
to kind of test that mentalresiliency of like this is hard,
(22:58):
but I'm just going to keepgoing and you will get to the
end of the 5k.
You will get to the end of the10k, you know.
And so when you learn that, itreally strengthens you in the
rest of your journey, becauseyou're going to face it, whether
it's in your professional life,your personal life, if you're
like me, all of the above, butthat's okay.
(23:20):
Again, it's this individualjourney we're on and you're well
served to test your, yourresiliency, and just to keep
going.
And, and once you achieve thegoal, you, you, you keep going,
you find a new one yeah, I lovethat.
Jay Johnson (23:37):
So, all right, let's kind of take this into the
realm a little bit of the realmof neuroscience and psychology
here.
Uh, I'm thinking, you know,when you read something like
Thinking Fast and Thinking Slowby Daniel Kahneman and Amos
Tversky.
We know that the brain has alot of cognitive shortcuts.
We have a number of differentways in which we have created
(24:00):
the conditions of bias, and oneof those biases is against or I
guess it would be more towardsinstant gratification, and I
think a lot of us live our livesin this space of instant
gratification, even though it'sprobably fairly well known now
that if I save money today, I'llhave way more later on down my
(24:23):
life.
But that's still a big thing.
So I'm going to put this in thecontext of wealth, prosperity,
essentially financial success,because I know that that's one
of the areas that you lead andcoach in.
So from a, let's just say, ageneralized, we know that kids
who are able to delaygratification for a number for
(24:44):
an extended period of timemeasure them out over the course
of their lives.
They are more successful.
They are then the person that'sgoing to take the dollar today
versus $10 10 weeks from now,and there's all kinds of
different algorithmic,behavioral economics behind.
You know how big is the rewardin the distance, how long is the
distance, and so on and soforth.
So, without getting into all ofthat complexity, how can we
(25:08):
better prepare ourselves toavoid the concept of instant
gratification and impulsiveness?
And journaling is obviously onething that we can do to be
satisfied in our daily life andhave gratitude for where we're
at now.
But let's be real.
If you tell me I'm going togive you $100 today or I'll give
(25:30):
you $200 a year from now, mostpeople are going to want the
$100 today, even though theother is a good bet.
What are your thoughts?
Jon Sabes (25:43):
Is that the marshmallow experiment, the kids
?
With the marshmallows.
That's the class.
It's's a great one.
Jay Johnson (25:48):
The kids who could delay not taking the marshmallow
I'll give you and for anybodythat doesn't know is I'll give
you one marshmallow right now.
Or, if you can wait, you'll gettwo marshmallows at a
significant you know, at a laterpoint in time.
And and they've measuredeverything from uh, in an hour,
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a day.
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a day.
I'll give you two marshmallowsto a week.
(26:10):
I'll give you two marshmallows,and the longer the distance,
the less likely that they'regoing to delay the gratification
, the larger the reward canimpact.
How you know how long they'rewilling to wait.
I'll give you 100 marshmallowsthree days from now.
Okay, well, I'm definitelygoing to take the hundred three
days from now than the one rightnow.
So there's all kinds ofpermutations on that, and
(26:33):
they've done that with differentexperiments too with money,
with investments and things, tosee how adults react to it.
And the reality is is most ofus are wired to take what we can
get today.
So how do we avoid that, or howdo we teach people to avoid
that?
Jon Sabes (26:49):
Yeah, I think the one way again.
I write a lot about this Again.
Longevity, financial partnersis my latest venture.
I'm in this whole longevityspace.
I've been here for a while.
I think the key is and you'vetouched on it is thinking
greater than self.
First of all, I mean you haveto think greater than self.
(27:09):
If you're not thinking greaterthan self, then why not?
Then why not take themarshmallow, then why not take
the hundred bucks, run over tothe liquor store and hit it?
I mean so you have to expandyour scope of sort of, your view
of the, the, it meaning it'sjust not me.
(27:30):
And even even though you maythink, well, it kind of still is
just me, isn't it?
Yes, but there are, when youtake, call it, negative steps,
you, you're causing pain onothers, you're, you're creating
what call waves of negativitywithin within your, within your
life, and so so one way, sort ofjust on a daily basis, is just,
(27:54):
just, we'll go back to thatvirtue versus hedonic behavior.
You know, opt for the virtuouschoice because it's going to,
it's going to create positiveripples around you.
But at the end of the day,right, it's this longevity, how
long we are on this planet, isthe most finite asset we have.
(28:14):
And when we are 70, and when weare 80, and, god willing, when
we're 90, or even 100, right,that's, I just covered 30, 40
plus years of life.
And and you really want to thinkof your older self, you know,
think of what you could do today, cause you're going to be that
older self Okay, god, you're,you're going to be some version
(28:38):
of that and when you're on yourdeathbed, you want to be able to
look back and say my life hasbeen a dream and you really, you
know, and that's a, that'swhere, where you want to be.
And so think about, maybe, that,even if it's just you, your
older self, I like to phrase itwhat would you tell your younger
self to do today?
You know so that when you metyour 80 or 90 year old self, he
(28:59):
or she gives you a big hug andgoes man, thanks for doing that,
because it made a differenceover here.
You know, and you will bereliant on others, you will have
less energy, you will be frail,and so think about even
yourself and think about howyou'll impact others in that, in
, in, in that phase of life, andmaybe that will make those
(29:21):
healthier, better choices alittle bit more, less painful,
and because you can, you can see.
It's just about you now and howyou're going to feel and how
the people you love are going tofeel about you.
Jay Johnson (29:33):
Well, I think that really I mean that lands for me
and resonates right Mostorganizations.
One of the things that theywant to do is hey, this is how
your behavior contributes to theoverall good.
You know whether that's yourmission, vision, values, or you
know how your?
You know whether that's yourmission, vision, values, or you
know how your.
You know work on a daily basisends up impacting the end
consumer.
(29:54):
So this is something that weteach in organizational
development too is yourbehaviors, at that sort of micro
level, end up having a macroeffect that's much larger than
what it is.
So, keeping that in mind cankind of say hey, you know, even
though I'm just pushing thisbutton, by pushing this button,
that's actually savingsomebody's life at the other end
(30:16):
of this.
You know production line orwhatever else that is.
So that really lands and thatmakes a lot of sense, as we're
trying to.
You know what are some of thebig challenges that you've
experienced in helping peoplesee that long term, like what
are some of the blocks orbarriers that maybe have come up
as a resistance point to?
Yeah, Jon, I mean that allmakes sense, but I got to watch
(30:39):
out for number one, because Isee a lot of watching out for
number one nowadays, especiallywith workforce engagements and
everything else.
So how, what are some of thosebarriers and what have you done
to maybe overcome those amongstyour teams?
Jon Sabes (30:56):
That's a big challenge, um, and and it's
that's a really hard thing toget people to look past.
Uh, looking out for themselves,only themselves.
Um Gosh, I don't know that Ihave a solve for you right here
on this podcast, but I guess youknow it's really.
It's look, when you take careof yourself, you're even I'll go
back to this when you take careof yourself, when you, when you
(31:19):
do self-care versus self-harm,when you work really hard at
your job and do it really well,even though it's just for you,
because you want to get that job, you want to get that promotion
, you're, you're contributing tothe organization in a
phenomenal sort of way.
So, as long as you're not doingit, I would say with negativity
, and you're beating.
You know you're doing things.
(31:41):
I'll use this hedonic sort ofyou know analogy in you know
you're backstabbing, it's fine,I'm fine with someone throwing
it down and working their assoff and and and being like yeah,
I'm getting that job, sorry.
So you know like I hate that asan entrepreneur, I hate
organizations who you know willsay you know, he's working too
(32:02):
hard, right, he's making me lookbad, like.
That to me, is just like oh myGod, that sort of organization
is the one I'm just like.
So so I think I think it's OK,you know, to to be.
It's about me, it's all about me, it's about my prosperity, but
I'd also say it's about myhealth.
It's about my mental health andit's about the mental health of
(32:23):
those that I'm around.
So it's not OK to do that andcreate harm.
You know or not.
You know, click a wire orsomething that causes some
product to have a malfunction,and you know.
So it's within that context.
But I say, go for it, man, justgo, go for it.
It is about you, you know.
But you can do that in a waythat is creating positive
(32:47):
positivity around everything youdo.
So that's.
I don't think those two thingsneed to be, you know, at odds.
I think people misunderstandthat because they get in these
organizations Well, he's workingtoo hard and he's competing too
hard.
We're like, well, that's kindof what it's about, you know, at
the end of the day, well, and Ilike that.
Jay Johnson (33:08):
And I think what I'm hearing inside of that
message is do it for you, butalso be a decent human while
you're doing it, it's no harm.
But at the same time, sort oflike when I see selfishness or I
(33:29):
see a lot of this sort of likeI'm just in it for me type thing
I think it's because of some ofthat, I really don't care about
what impact I'm having oneverybody else around me.
So if I'm going to draw thatinsight out of you, it's more of
a balance.
It's like, yeah, do it for you,but recognize that by doing it
for you, you're also should becontributing to everybody else
(33:52):
around you, and I think thatgoes to your abundance mentality
thought.
Jon Sabes (33:55):
Yeah, if you're doing , look, no one likes a dirty
player on us.
You know, use a sport analogyno one, no one, likes that dirty
player on the team, right?
But everyone loves a MichaelJordan, you know they, even
though he's so hard to deal with.
And if he's a, if you're a highperformer, I mean you just got
to acknowledge performance, youknow, and but but don't be dirty
(34:16):
about it, don't be mean.
There's no reason to be mean.
Being mean is, is not a goodthing, you know.
Don't, don't allow your mind toto go there.
Jay Johnson (34:26):
So, Jon, I would ask this if, if, in the concept
of scarcity and abundance, whenwe start to think about it, I
think most people want to be inthat mindset of abundance, but
then all of a sudden we start toget that tinge of but if Jon
wins, then that means I'm goingto lose.
Or if you get this promotionand I'm not going to get this
(34:48):
promotion, how do you help coachpeople sort of away from that
perspective?
Jon Sabes (34:55):
Yeah, that's again, that's a tough one.
I mean you just have torecognize that we live in just
an incredible abundant world.
I mean, if you're in the UnitedStates and you're working here
or North America, I mean youhave so much abundance.
It is ridiculous, okay, youhave so much opportunity.
It is ridiculous.
(35:16):
And so I would say, if youfeeling that way, that's more
about you.
You know, if that person gotthe promotion, I mean let's
hopefully they they really diddeserve it because they were the
Michael Jordan.
It was clear they there was thelaw of contrast.
They were the ones who did it.
They sacrificed their weekendsor this or that.
They gave it all.
So I mean you just got tounderstand that.
(35:40):
You know and resolve that if youwant more, if you want that,
you're going to have to givemore.
You know life's a series oftrade-offs and maybe you want it
but you're not willing to dowhat it takes to get it.
Or maybe you're just creatingyourself up for the next
opportunity.
Maybe that wasn't the rightthing.
So so again, this goes back tothe road always continues.
(36:03):
This is not probably going tobe the last job you ever have.
So you have these opportunitiesto learn, to set yourself up
for success.
And and I just, I'm a big, youknow, you know work like hell.
You know, just, you gotta giveit and I don't care what job
you're doing.
There is so much opportunityand creativity.
And to you know, I like to say,it's just, you know, the, the,
(36:26):
the, the.
The cleanliness of your officereflects in the in, in the mind
of your customer.
I mean, you know, just cleanthe office, just do it, not
because anyone asked you, justdo it because it looks better.
You know, I mean, so there'sjust so much to do and and I
guess it's it's.
Maybe people don't want to hearthat, but that's what, that's
what the real world takes.
Jay Johnson (36:46):
No, I love that Cause.
I think it's that shift into agrowth mindset rather than a
fixed mindset.
Right, it's hey, if I didn'tget this, what could I have done
differently?
What can I learn from thisexperience?
How will I get it the next timethat this comes around and
really kind of thinking aboutwhat are my next steps?
Because, you're right, I've hadthe fortunate privilege to
(37:07):
travel to about 39 differentcountries and when you talk
about opportunities, especiallyin North America, they are
abundant.
There's definitelyopportunities no one's stuck
where they're at but it doesrequire a growth mindset to try
to see those opportunities orsee how I could fit in the
future, even if I'm not thereright at this moment.
(37:29):
Jon, this has been a reallyinsightful conversation.
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you and hear more
about the things that you'redoing, or into some of the
different products, how wouldthey reach out to?
Jon Sabes (37:40):
you?
Sure, jay, it's Jon, Jon.
I'm on all the social mediaplatforms.
You can engage with me there.
My book is healthy, wealthylongevity talks about health and
longevity and what does aginglook like, and it also talks
about prosperity and being anentrepreneur and working and
(38:03):
then self-mastery.
So if these things you know,you want to learn more, I highly
encourage you to pick up thebook it's on Amazon and engage
with me, however.
However, the prompt journalsare on my website and um love to
come back, jay.
Do it for 30, 60 days.
Let's see.
Let's see how it worked.
Jay Johnson (38:22):
I love it.
So I uh, I will definitely betaking that up and uh can
committing to that.
So I'm making that commitmentright here, right now, on the
Talent Forge, Jon, and we'll seewhere we land.
But I just want to say thankyou, because it's always
refreshing to have aconversation with somebody that
(38:42):
has that sort of growthmentality, that sort of forward
thinking where are we going toland and what are we going to
learn along the way?
Because I think in a lot ofcases we become so destination
focused that we forget about allof the incredible experience
and learning opportunitiesthrough the pursuit of whatever
it is the pursuit of goals,pursuit of happiness or pursuit
(39:03):
of the Ironman Wow, it's stillimpressive to me.
So I just want to say thank youfor coming on and sharing your
perspective and giving us someinsights into that space.
Jon Sabes (39:12):
Thanks, jay, great to be here.
Love the podcast, appreciateyou.
Jay Johnson (39:16):
Thank you and thank you, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the Talent Forge, where together we're shaping
the future of training anddevelopment.
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