March 13, 2025 • 46 mins
What happens when a television journalist becomes an HR executive and discovers the transformative power of crayons?
Susan Hensley shares her transformative three-career act from television journalist to HR executive to art journaling coach, revealing how each career phase built valuable skills that enhanced her effectiveness as a leader. Her expertise in developing teams, navigating transitions, and using creative tools for personal growth offers powerful insights for talent development professionals.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today I have a special guestwith a lot of interesting
experience and background.
Welcome to the show, susanHensley.
Susan Hensley (00:14):
Thank you, Jay.
I am so happy to be here.
This is one of my favoritesubjects.
Jay Johnson (00:19):
All right.
Well, me too, and our audiencetoo.
So this is going to be reallygreat.
I want them to get to know youbecause you have got a lot of
really cool things going on,Everything from I'm not going to
steal your thunder.
Why don't you introduceyourself?
And then we are going to dig in, because I have so many things
to ask you and I think this isjust going to be a really
(00:40):
valuable conversation.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Susan Hensley (00:43):
Susan is just going to be a really valuable
conversation.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself, susan Sure.
So when I look back on mycareer I sort of see three acts
and I'm in the third.
There was a first career intelevision journalism.
I was an anchor person,reporter, ran newsrooms, did
that for about 11 years tillthat didn't fit.
Any of your listeners who workin HR do any recruiting know
(01:04):
when motivational fit stops youhave a person who could do it.
Their life doesn't fit, you geta big career switch.
I switched at that point,ironically, into a training and
development role at a globalcompany.
It was a really interestingcase of sort of networking and
leap of faith and really justjumped into that and did that,
(01:28):
moved up through the ranks.
I was ended as an HR executiveoverseeing all the centers of
excellence, including L&D.
Did that for about 23, 25 years.
Then I got into a lot ofexecutive and career coaching,
which then morphed intonavigating life transitions
(01:48):
coaching, because it all sort offits together, and with that I
personally was using a tool andI know your listeners get this
right.
It's one thing to teach andcoach.
It's another thing to reallyuse some of your tools, another
thing to really use some of yourtools.
I had started playing with artand art journaling, which is
(02:14):
about the process of expressionthrough art, not about making
art, so I feel like I need tojust start there every time.
This is not about showinganyone what you're making.
It's very similar to a writtendiary, but really using that
right hemisphere of your brainfor play, for curiosity, for
innovation, and I ended upwriting a book about it.
Now I teach workshops about itand it really fits nicely with
(02:36):
the coaching I do about lifetransitions.
Jay Johnson (02:40):
So that's me in a sort of a one minute snapshot
journalism, and so I have abackground in communications and
(03:04):
I actually studied publicrelations, crisis management,
media relations, and it'sactually really had an impact on
how I think about training, howI think about connecting with
an audience.
Let's take that transition.
So you move from Act One, whereyou're in that space, and you
move into talent development.
What were some of the thingsthat maybe you were able to
(03:25):
bring with you or sort oflessons that you had learned
from act one that really wentinto that act two?
Susan Hensley (03:33):
So it's a great, great question, because one of
the favorite things I like to dowith clients and in a
leadership development programwe rolled out, we had people do
their journey lines right it'sthat storytelling to understand
the peaks and valleys.
And one of the key things Ibrought with me from the years
(03:53):
in media was sort of that noexcuses mentality, right.
When you're on live television,you're just on live TV and no
one I will tell you, no audiencecares.
And it's where you get into thecrisis communications.
You are just working with whatyou have and so it's deep
accountability and it's alsowhat I think if you look at the
(04:14):
competencies that lay withinthat it is action, orientation,
orientation.
There's a real curiositydealing with ambiguity, you know
, and almost a strategic agilitythat goes into it.
And at the time I joined adevelopment team, we were
(04:35):
rolling out 360s and a wholecomp.
This was years ago in acompetency-based suite and I
found it so helpful in so muchof the coaching I was doing
where sometimes in organizationspeople want to say, if
everything is not perfect, Ican't.
If everything's not aligned, ifthis doesn't make sense, I
(04:57):
can't, I'm not accountable.
And as we were working on goalsetting.
I found some of the stories, ifyou will, because people respond
to stories and analogies aboutwhat certain experiences were
like.
It really resonated, no matterwho the audience was, whether it
was with an executive or lineunion employee.
(05:20):
That sense of the camera goeson live and someone throws a
snowball and hits you, which Iactually had happened.
But you need to work.
Honestly, it's a crazy, crazystory.
But you then start to work withwhere is your accountability in
that moment?
What are?
How do you manage your emotionsRight?
(05:41):
Surprise anger.
You know you want to go kill theteenager who thought that would
be so funny, but that's not myprimary accountability, right.
So you talk about it led to somany rich discussions about, you
know, staying focused, job athand, dealing with the surprise,
but not getting off track.
(06:01):
A little bit of a long story,but that was really very
interesting.
It took me a while, right, I'mgoing A little bit of a long
story, but that was really veryinteresting.
It took me a while, right, I'mgoing to be clear, there's
always that ramp up period whenyou go into a new job, but it
was really really helpful as wewere rolling out both 360s and a
competency-based performancemodel to help people, because
(06:23):
it's natural for people to pokeholes and explain all the
reasons why you can't to havethose kind of stories.
I was also at a company thathired a lot from the military.
I actually relied very heavilyon if I had people in the
audience who were veterans andhad served in the military,
because there is, at least atthe time, that sort of we have a
(06:46):
mission, a little bit approachand we're not going to get
sidetracked, and that helped aswe were working on really an
environment of excellence.
Jay Johnson (06:57):
You know it's interesting because strategic
agility, as you said, wassomething I was like it's got to
be.
You gotta be bringing someadaptability in there.
We had a conversation on thisshow, the talent forge with Dr
Esther Jackson and it was allabout like how training is
adaptable.
So I imagine that world from uh, you know the transition of who
(07:20):
knows what's coming next, youknow where's the next.
Uh, you know what's going tohappen in here.
I wasn't anticipating asnowball, that was definitely a
curve, but yeah.
So I think everybody sayseverybody has a player, mike
Tyson, everybody has a plan toget punched in the mouth or, I
guess, now hit with a snowball,according to Susan.
Susan Hensley (07:39):
Much more gentle yeah no, I love it.
Jay Johnson (07:42):
And then you know let's get into that space.
You were in the talentdevelopment space.
I'd like to learn a little bitmore about that.
So you had mentioned you hadworked with was it active
military more veterans or whatdid that look like and how was
that experience for you?
Susan Hensley (08:00):
So it was great.
It was a.
It was a very good hiring poolis what we found as a company.
So definitely no activemilitary right.
We're a private, large,multi-international company.
But we found in recruitingright Anyone who's ever run a
recruiting function, dependingon the jobs, as if you know,
(08:21):
your skill set.
For us there was a really goodpool of people coming out
through some of the bigrecruiting conferences that
support the veterans and wefound both on what I would call
line manufacturing jobs and thenin logistics supply chain right
.
Some of those employees justhad gotten some really really
(08:44):
great training that worked wellin our culture, right, if,
depending on where people'sworkforces are, you know,
finding the right talent withthe right values and mindset.
When you miss it setseverything back, but when you
can hit it and that wassomething I had discovered or
(09:06):
was encountering that I thought,oh, that's so, so interesting.
When we saw some of thecompetencies at least the people
we were hiring came with andhow well many of those
competencies applied to certainjobs we had.
Jay Johnson (09:20):
Now so, and we had a great conversation with Barb
Thompson, who's actually doinglike assessments in the existing
military and just somefantastic work with the active
military.
You know, one of the thingsthat we talked about is when we
think about, like the militarysort of we're going to call it
the mentality right Like, getthe job done, don't complain or
(09:41):
anything else, don't complain oranything else, and I'm assuming
that as they had transitionedinto being veterans and, you
know, out of active duty, didyou see a lot of that mentality
of just like sort of go getter,get the job done, follow, follow
the rules, and did that createany challenges?
Cause it's not just themilitary that carries that
mentality, it can also be somedifferent sort of personality.
(10:03):
You know types that really kindof lock into process, procedure
, precision.
What was your experience onthat?
Susan Hensley (10:12):
Like most things, there's an overuse of skills
that can occur, which createsthe dark side, if you will.
So in coaching, it's right whenthose skills that we just
talked about that theaccountability, get the job done
are applied appropriately andat different levels, you can
(10:33):
have it work better.
Where you would get some of thedark side is as people move
into leadership positions.
If they didn't have strongemotional intelligence, if the
mindset was overly hierarchical.
We were also a veryrelationship-based company and
we really, because it was acompany that had extremely high
(10:56):
engagement scores that we wantedto protect and long service
records, which we also wanted toprotect the coaching and
interventions, if you will, atcertain points, as leaders are
developing in terms ofunderstanding and valuing all
perspectives on a team how towork with, say, people who may
(11:18):
be overly analytical.
Right, who are the folks whoare going to frustrate that
mindset the most?
Folks who maybe get in ananalytical mindset, people who
are really good at pointing outproblems or challenges that need
to be surfaced Right.
There's a time and way.
So we came across the tool andI don't know if you've heard
(11:40):
this or your listeners it wasBelbin team assessments.
It was part of our Lean SixSigma rollout.
I was part of that and that,for the organization I was in,
was terrific because it was allbased on observable behaviors
people had of you and there werelike nine team roles and we did
a lot of work around why everyrole is valued, why we need to
(12:05):
balance teams, teams withguiding principles and a lot of
how we develop teams with veryspecific roles.
That ended up being a reallyhelpful tool that, as we rolled
out Lean Six Sigma to have whatdo high functioning, synergistic
(12:26):
teams look like and we had somereally good training and
partners.
And then most of us in HRbecame certified in the tool and
then really used it to helpestablish higher performing
teams.
Jay Johnson (12:41):
You know it's funny you said the tool and I was
like that sounds familiar.
Why does that sound familiar?
And as soon as you said SixSigma you know I've done work
with the industrial and systemsengineering at Wayne State
University and I was like that'swhere it came from, yep, all
right, so all right, let's talkabout that.
Though.
So you moved yourself up.
You joined this and you said itwas 23 years in this space.
(13:02):
So, from that place to anexecutive level, what were some
of the key aspects of yoursuccess?
From developing the people,obviously, you brought in the
agility.
You brought in some of thoseother aspects of being able to
be accountable to yourself.
But at the executive level, howshould our audience be thinking
(13:23):
about creating the conditionsfor success in an enterprise, in
an international organization?
Susan Hensley (13:31):
Yeah, because I think I had a helpful mindset I
didn't recognize at the timebecause I didn't come in
attached, deeply attached.
I got hired into organizationaldevelopment department and
doing this, and they saw how thecompetencies I had a brilliant
original boss would transferthat my competencies and
(13:51):
descriptors of what I did when Iran newsrooms would translate
to this current environment.
The company that I worked atwas very good and I think it's
some very skilled people atunderstanding the competencies
needed.
That had to be demonstratedversus exact experience, and
(14:12):
what I did when I got there isanytime.
I was asked to take on aspecial project, I said yes, I
would ask why, right, because itwouldn't be intuitive Led the
deployment of Lean Six Sigma.
And I do not consider myself ananalytical person.
My education is incommunications and social
(14:33):
science, right, and so I saidwhy.
And the answer I got was it wasabout change management and
leadership.
There were enough people withdeep statistical analysis I
could learn it, enough to getcertified and to do a project.
I worked with the sales force,not the manufacturing floor,
right?
So I got a break there.
(14:55):
For a person who's not deep instatistics, always better to go
work with the sales force, workon your people.
You know, leverage what broughtyou your people skills.
So I would take any role.
I did a finance supply chainrole in Asia.
Even so, because the companywas very willing to move people
(15:16):
to create really well-roundedleaders, I just took every
opportunity and I think notcoming from a narrow background
really helped me be very open tothese opportunities and made me
a more effective coach later.
Because it's like why do yousee that I could have an impact?
(15:39):
What is it you're wanting me tobring?
You know, I'm always reallyhonest.
I didn't have you know.
In a finance role, I had tobuild a really great finance
team and I had to humble myselfand say this I'm not a leader
who can do your job Right.
I can, at a high level,understand it, but which isn't
the ideal model.
Jay Johnson (16:00):
We sometimes like leaders who can go and do the
technical side if they have to.
Susan Hensley (16:06):
Yeah, and it was a real stretch and we were also
in Hong Kong.
I'd moved my family.
That was one of the harderrotations.
But once again, I kept askingbefore I moved halfway around
the world with the family and Iadvised people all this time why
?
And it was rebuild the team,Develop a stronger strategy
(16:26):
right, we're going to expect youto understand the financials
right, you can't not be thereand not understand it.
But we are going to allow thatas an allowable weakness because
of problem solving skills withports and customs and logistics,
and then an ability to build ateam so that when the expat me
(16:49):
in this case rolled back, we hada better local team than when
was there.
But very humbling and, I think,also important to get people to
take those sort of risks inorganizations, because that's
where you get growth right.
When you are on that edge ofdiscomfort not, you know, full
on meltdown, but you areuncomfortable every single day
(17:11):
you get a lot of learnings.
Jay Johnson (17:13):
There's so much in what you said that resonates
with me, you know, and I eventhink about it.
Number one is that our sharedbackground in communication.
My first hire was to theindustrial and systems
engineering department at WayneState University.
I I my claim to fame was Ideferred getting my
(17:33):
undergraduate degree for twoyears because of the math
proficiency examination andeverything else like that.
It was just like nah, just, I'mgood, I'm fine.
You know, I've learned a littlemath along the way but, to your
point, I was able to thrive inan engineering environment
because I was adaptable, becauseI was able to communicate,
because, you know, being able toleverage.
(17:55):
They made me project manager ofa $3 million national science
foundation grant for mathematicsin high schools and it was just
like.
So that adaptability, thatbeing able to kind of
communicate and connect withpeople, it's just, it's so
important.
But the other thing that yousaid that I think is super
interesting and I want to dig injust a little bit more.
(18:18):
As you were going through thisprocess and you're bouncing from
one place to another place, toa different project to a
different project, what you'regaining there is not just,
obviously, experience, butknowledge of the entire business
function and that's one of thethings that I really highly
promote to everybody in L&D islike don't get stuck in your
(18:40):
department, get out there andlearn what all these other
departments are actually doing.
Get in there, get your handsdirty.
Can you talk just a little bitabout what that did for you as a
learning leader or as anexecutive, to really get your
hand around all of thesedifferent experiences and all of
this different aspects of theorganization?
Susan Hensley (19:03):
Yeah, it's such a great question because I agree
with you.
Right, we're sitting here sortof in like violent agreement.
You're talking like yes, yes,because credibility.
I think sometimes in the worstcase scenario you know any
viewer ever saw the Office inthe worst case scenario, if you
(19:26):
are standing in front of a groupand you are trying to get them
to stretch, to try new things,to learn and how we approach
adult learning, the morecredibility you can have in the
business, the more stretch youhave gone through one.
It makes you empathetic.
(19:47):
You know how scary, how exposedyou can feel, how vulnerable,
and I think it's reallyimportant that people who are
doing learning development fullydemonstrate that sweet, if you
will, of human emotion, becausewe're asking people to learn
(20:09):
something new, to try and dosomething a different way to
expose.
Maybe they don't get it, maybethey're not doing it right the
first time, what's going tohappen if they don't grow right?
It's important to understandall those fears that lay under
this, versus having a personwant to say this is the flavor
(20:30):
of the month and I'm just goingto hunker down and ignore you,
and that's what I call the bigfear you don't.
And so, having done a number ofdifferent roles, having seen
the business from sort of theground up, not having always
done the jobs, but really havingseen how both horizontally
(20:51):
integrated this business was,that I was working, I was very
lucky created, I think, a littlebit of a bond or some empathy,
if you will, to try and create asafe environment to get people
to stretch when we were together.
Jay Johnson (21:10):
So powerful.
And thank you for going intothat, because I really do think
that the more that we have abroader experience, the more
that we can empathize with thosein the finance department, with
those in the supply chain, withthose in the production systems
, those in the legal, and all ofa sudden, when we get a bigger,
brighter picture of the wholeentity, it really gives us the
(21:34):
ability to serve each individualcomponent at a much stronger
level.
So I love that comment and Ithink it's a great takeaway for
our audience here Now as wetransition into Act 3, you move
out of that position, get intosome coaching and obviously take
that to a whole new level.
And part of that experience isalso bringing in.
(21:58):
And I want you to mention thetitle of your book so that way
we can let people into that.
But talk about because you said,art early on and I guarantee if
anybody's out there like me,I'm like all right, my art is
stick figures and anything.
You preface this.
You caught me right.
I mean you predicted mybehavior right then and there
you know, for those of us thatare not considered ourselves
(22:19):
artists, talk about what this is, what this tool, how's it
function and how do you deploythis in the coaching framework
to be able to help people reallykind of transform themselves?
Susan Hensley (22:31):
I'll give you a speck of the backstory because
of who your audience is.
At the time I got into this, Iwas overseeing all the centers
for excellence and one of thepeople who was on my team was
the head of learning anddevelopment and she had a side
hustle.
She's a fantastic artist andyou know we're standing around
as happens.
This was pre COVID, when wewere, you know, fully in the
(22:55):
office and rest of us are sayingyou know, I can barely draw a
smiley face.
Right, I do hearts.
My doodle is like a heart and asmiley face, which is true
today.
I want to just keep prefacingthat.
And she says you know what?
I'll have a few of you comeover on a Saturday.
I'll show you the color wheel,teach you just a few things.
It'll be fun.
You know cheese and crackers,maybe a glass of wine.
(23:16):
So about five of us head to herhouse, right, it was a very
collegial place.
I worked on Saturday it's twohours and she gave us some
paints and I had a little pieceof paper and she's explaining
the color wheel.
Well, I'm over there in thecorner just with my paints and I
truly ended up creating a brownmess.
I found out the reason itturned brown?
Because I was impatient.
I learned that later from aperson who knows art.
(23:38):
At the time it was like ooh,mystery, right.
But what I noticed and this iswhere all of the career coaching
and different things that HRprofessionals do is it was a
glimmer, it lit me up, it wasfun.
The inner critic was gone thattwo hours where I sat there just
playing with I think it waslike a maybe a purple and a blue
(24:02):
or whatever.
I actually took the soggylittle piece of paper home, I
hung it on the refrigerator andmy husband and son are like, wow
, what is this?
Because once again, it's like aRorschach test.
You know the block test and Ifollowed that.
I'm a huge fan of the bookDesigning your Life.
I don't know if anyone in theaudience you've heard of it.
(24:22):
So it was a glimmer and I'mcommitted to following those.
So I started to just play withart.
I had a younger child at homeso we had some crayons.
It's still in the house andI'll tell you right now that's
the key to keeping it playfuland to silencing your inner
critic.
I've been doing this seven,eight years.
(24:43):
I have not advanced veryintentionally beyond the art
supplies you find in a Target, aMichaels, a Walmart, the kids
section.
Because as an adult and I teachthis in my workshops when you
are holding a crayon you are nottaking yourself overly
seriously.
I have yet to meet an adultwho's got like a blue and pink
(25:04):
crayon and is like I am going tonail this right.
Instead, it silences the innercritic.
It opens us up to curiosity,right.
It opens us up to some play,and that is where you know, in
all the brain science, that'swhere the ideas, that much more
(25:27):
holistic, creative place comesthrough.
I started just playing at home,quite honestly, and I was
enjoying it, so I kept doing it,even just a few minutes, while
I was, you know, getting dinnerready, or I had a few colored
pens.
You know you're waiting in aschool pickup line.
You know in the car, instead oflike scrolling on my phone,
(25:51):
which you know still do want tofully own, that you know I can
go down the that rabbit holestarted to play with color
collage.
I love a Elmer's glue stick andthe pandemic hit a couple of
years later.
I really gaveled down on it andusing it to help process all
(26:12):
the emotions and everything thatwas happening.
At the time.
The job got insane, right,because we had a split workforce
.
Anyone who worked in HR duringthat period just knows how much
more difficult the job became,and really still is, because
anyone who's managing aworkforce who maybe doesn't want
(26:32):
to be in person, right.
Jay Johnson (26:34):
There's still some difficult decisions and
behaviors that are, yeah,absolutely.
Susan Hensley (27:04):
Yeah, absolutely using it.
As for me, I, you know, wasn'tsharing it but it did help me
clarify during that period thatyou know.
I said when COVID was over it'sso funny that I was going to
leave I had always planned onperhaps doing something else
about five years later than Idid and I realized I was as much
as I still love the company anddo consulting work for them and
work for a few years sort ofpart-time after that role at
(27:27):
that time and I gave 18 monthsnotice.
So I gave lots of notice juststopped fitting me and I was
really using the art journal andthat's where I recognized so
much of my coaching.
Although I still do a lot ofcareer and executive coaching,
the interest was much more inhelping people with a much more
(27:48):
holistic the whole person.
I think really good careerleadership executive coaches get
under that and understand thewhy the North Star for that
executive or that employee,because then it helps you align,
it helps them help you alignall the other behaviors.
But there's a really greatcertification program on
(28:11):
navigating transitions that Idid.
But it was the art journal thattook me on a different path
sooner than I thought and withgreater ease and curiosity I
became.
I think I used to give lipservice to the power of
curiosity.
You know, in Lean Six Sigma youlearn the five whys.
(28:33):
I think lots of people use thatright.
It's why, why, why, root causeanalysis yeah.
Yeah, that can sound right, veryleft brain, very linear, a bit
accusatory sometimes, whenyou're asking it sort of of
yourself like why does this feelgood?
Why am I enjoying it?
Why am I telling myself I needto keep doing this?
Is it a social construct?
(28:54):
Is it my deep need to try andbe perfect, to achieve?
And I resemble all those thingsright?
I still do a somewhat type Apersonality.
I love lists and plans, but Ineeded balance.
I think that's really what thepandemic helped me to see and
art journaling helped me to seeis I needed to balance, if you
(29:19):
will, these various aspects ofmy personality into a little
more joyful, curious,self-compassionate form.
Jay Johnson (29:28):
So I love this Susan and for many reasons.
Number one, as you said, myfavorite word balance, which is
something that I really try topromote, and in every aspect.
So during the pandemic I got aset of paints and I like
creativity, so I am actually avery creative person.
It does not come out very wellin music or in art or anything
(29:51):
else, but I painted the entirewall upstairs as a mural.
It was like this sort of likeenvironmental scene.
It wasn't great, but at onepoint in time my ex-wife had
come upstairs Ex-wife now at thetime just with my wife, and
looked at it and was just like,wow, you did that.
And I was like I wasn't proudof it, but it was something that
was just like.
It was cathartic.
(30:11):
I'm up there and I was justpainting and it really did kind
of feel like I was playing or Iwas sort of discovering or
anything else.
So I ended up doing a little bitof research on so my
background's in psychology andneuroscience as well as
communication, and I did some ofthe research.
There's incredible researchabout how impactful art therapy
(30:33):
can be for things like stress,anxiety, for even things where
people have like and I've neverhad shyness as one of the things
as my labels, but for somebodyexpressing themselves or being
more expressive about theiremotions, feelings, et cetera.
So I'm really digging whatyou're talking about here.
You're translating a lot ofthat really powerful science
(30:56):
into a concept of art journaling.
And I want to dig in on that ontwo different questions.
One, what does that look like Ifyou, if you were to even talk
about the process of it, of, ofstarting right?
Because I can imagine, I canimagine myself sitting there and
going what am I supposed todraw?
How do I do this Like, what amI thinking?
(31:17):
Or anything else?
That's a, that's a type, apersonality in me that would be
coming out.
And then the second question ishow do you overcome resistance?
Because I know and this is trueof any time play comes into
adult learning in any way, shapeor form.
You've got people oh, this issilly, this is dumb, and it is
that sort of ego protectivemeasure of, oh, I'm not going to
(31:40):
be, and in reality those arethe people that ended up having
the most fun once they get intoit.
So that's my two frames herethat I'd love for you to explore
a little bit.
Number one is what would youeven do to get started in some
space like this.
And then number two how did weovercome that resistance, that
imposter syndrome or that sortof that anti-child that we all
(32:02):
try to suppress at some point intime, god knows why?
Susan Hensley (32:06):
Okay One I love the fact that you did the mural.
Thank you so much for sharingthat, because everything I'm
about to tell you, with artjournaling, so much lower
barrier than painting a mural ona wall.
That is courageous, so good foryou, that's fantastic.
Uh, I'm going to answer thequestion by telling you an
(32:28):
opening exercise that I haveused at uh health spas and
wellness retreats, where peopleare are coming to to my talk.
You know labeled, you know howto use art to get in touch with
yourself, life transitions, andI've used in corporate settings.
So I'm just going to walk youthrough it, because it does both
things.
Have folks come in.
(32:49):
I may introduce a few concepts.
I give them all a piece ofpaper.
It's five by seven.
I pass around a bowl of crayonstape, say tape, two crayons,
okay, so this is what we'regoing to do.
I'm going to put on a song.
It's last three minutes.
During that three minutes,you're going to take your two
crayons and you are going tofill this piece of paper.
(33:12):
It's only five by seven, it'snot even eight by 10.
I don't care how you fill itScribble, doodle but that's the
exercise I've using.
Taylor, I spread them out.
So, particularly in thecorporate retreat.
I ended up being the first timeI did it.
I was the after lunch.
It was a strategic planningoffsite.
I'm after lunch and you knowall the hierarchies there, right
(33:35):
, it's executive VP down to likemaybe some directors, and so
people are really focused.
I'm like here's crayon.
So I made them spread out.
Everyone got their space,introduced, the concepts put on
shake it off, taylor Swift song.
I just played my Apple music tothree minutes.
Go Three minutes.
(33:55):
End.
Crayons down, don't show anyone.
Tell me how you feel, justshout it out and I'm just
writing on the board.
Silly, playful.
How did it go by so fast?
Totally different, right, and Imean without fail.
When I do this exercise, thoseare the words free, giggly, and
(34:22):
then we debrief it morethoroughly.
It's like how does your bodyfeel right now?
What's your breathing?
Right?
So I try and get themsomatically to focus on what's
really going on.
Then I will step way back andintroduce the whys.
Right, the exercise works foryour audience because it's
constrained exercise.
(34:43):
There is, once again, very hardfor adults who only have two
crayons and three minutes andare not going to show it to
anyone.
Like anyone who wants to throwit away, throw it away.
No one throws it away.
People save it.
Some people give it to meafterwards Like I just want you
to have this, like oh, I mean, Ilove that, it's really
(35:04):
interesting.
I will say, if you want to wadit up and throw it away, right,
that was for you.
That was a somatic play breakthat was completely sanctioned.
I have been blown away.
I did an online training thatgoes with the book about this
but that highly constrained.
(35:25):
You've got music.
It doesn't have to be that song.
If you look at your music onyour phone there's either three
or four minute songs.
I would keep it as short.
I'd keep it upbeat, becausethat really helps people.
So those are the reasons.
I'm hoping that demonstrationof the exercise sort of answers
your questions.
Jay Johnson (35:45):
It does, because it seems to me and obviously not
being an expert in this space,but it seems to me what you've
done is you've lowered thebarrier by giving the permission
, you've reduced the complexityof the exercise because you only
have two crayons and there'snot all that much you're going
to be able to do.
Complexity of the exercisebecause you only have two
crayons and there's not all thatmuch you're going to be able to
do.
You have given a guideline offill this and it's small, so it
(36:07):
seems like, okay, I've got threeminutes to fill this, I can do
that.
That's an easy task and thebrain probably lets go of some
of its sort of barriers.
There's a really great professorat Wayne State University,
actually Dr Pradeep Sapori, whoended up studying and I worked
(36:30):
with him.
He was one of my graduateadvisors at the time, but I'd
worked with him on the conceptsof play and the impact that it
has on relationships, creativity, communication, and one of the
things that we found was couplesthat play together stay
together.
So the fact that you're doingthis inside of an executive
boardroom really makes a lot ofsense, because not only is it an
individualized task where it'ssafe and they don't have to do
(36:51):
it, but on some level they'restill playing together, aren't
they?
Susan Hensley (36:56):
Yeah, we talk about because after right after
sort of an opening exercise, ifyou will talk about the whys
right, people right, these areexecutives want to understand
what's happened.
We talk about the inner critic.
I use research that I found toyour point.
In the last few years or before, there's been some great, great
work.
I referenced both in my book.
I got really lucky.
(37:16):
There's a terrific book outright now called your Brain on
Art that explains both what wefeel when we create and it can
also include music, dance, right, it's like with big AR and I'm
you know I'm talking aboutsomething on a page but also
what happens in our brains whenwe observe it and listen to it
and take it in, and it's justfor the mental health challenges
(37:40):
we are facing as a society, sohelpful.
So I try and introduce the whybecause executives want that.
And then we start talking aboutthe inner critic and the fact
that most people and these arepeople who are in a boardroom,
right Stop being creative.
They got messages, researchshows by about eight or nine.
(38:01):
So I really ask people to goback to about five, four and
five and be your own proudparent, right, depending on your
folks, they're maybe puttingstuff on the refrigerator and
you're admiring thatfive-year-old artist work.
That's inadvertently what I did.
I tried to really disaggregatemy own experience with that mess
(38:23):
that brown sort of soggy messputting it on my refrigerator
following the glimmer.
I tried to pull that apart,understand the science or
research, and then the book issort of done by chapters it's
not a workbook and then some ofthe research, the online
training and the workshops.
(38:44):
I do sort of really lay out thehow-to.
And we talk so much about theinner critic and can you let
that inner critic go for fiveminutes or 10 minutes?
Right, it's a short period.
It's almost honoring.
You keep me safe and you helpme a lot.
You push me to be my best.
I don't need this.
This is just play, and anyonewho's ever observed kids, little
(39:06):
kids, on a playground, theyhave no trouble Like uh-uh, this
is my swing.
And I joke with adults,executives, like when you were a
kid, how'd you say to anotherkid you don't come.
That's what you're going to doto your inner critic before I
launch them into you know theirnext exercise, because they're
(39:28):
you know, by the time we hit thenext exercise, they're ready
for me, right?
Their inner critics gettingready and the fight of this,
even though they're having fundsabout to begin.
So that's where I really tryand do work around talking to
that inner critic, acknowledgingit, asking it to stand aside,
that this is safe play right,this is not exposure, it's not
(39:50):
dangerous.
Jay Johnson (39:51):
So you've used this inside of that space.
Obviously, you've used this foryour own personal
transformation, personaldevelopment, and you wrote a
book about it.
And can you tell us a littlebit about the book and what the
audience would expect when theygo get this, because I've
already put it into my queue?
So let's talk about art andsanity and go ahead and give the
(40:15):
full title.
Susan Hensley (40:17):
Okay.
So it's called Art for yourSanity.
The subtitle is really how artjournaling can manage chaos and
unleash joy.
And that's a really personalsubtitle because that's what it
did for me during the pandemic,during the life transition Book
is.
It's a simple, straightforwardbook.
You can get it anywhere.
(40:37):
You buy books, right?
Amazon is also an e-version,but I tried to really lay out it
in segments the case for playand why.
The case for how it's a safecontainer for challenging
emotions.
We talked about sort of thatspace of art therapy.
And then the inner wisdom andwithin that I have personal
(40:58):
stories.
I published which I neverthought I'd do my art journal
pages to show some of them.
The extremely low barrier.
It looks like a kindergartnerdid it?
It still does.
I mean there's one where I'vegot this little face screaming.
I was extremely upset and it's,you know, a little emoji type
face is screaming.
It's like the famous paintingthe Scream.
(41:19):
It's like shame, rage and allthese slashes which at the time
I felt.
You go back and look at thatand you have huge compassion to
the person who was experiencingthat level of emotion.
But it's safe, it's on the page, it's dried.
I mean even the act of turninga page is such a good reminder
(41:40):
for how we are not our emotions.
They are temporary.
We are resilient.
We can process these in aconstructive way.
It's not we don't feel themright.
We feel them but we process andwork with them in a creative,
constructive way and then youquite literally can turn the
page.
You can go back and revisit andremember how difficult that day
(42:04):
was in your life or that period.
So the book sort of goes throughthat, as does online training
that I've done and workshops.
But that's the premise of itand I did it because in my
coaching practice I wasone-on-one saying to clients,
along with different tools, givethis a try.
(42:24):
And I recognized a moreefficient way to try and put it
out in the world was to write ashort book.
You know, on the websitethere's a PDF, a free PDF, of
like how to get started.
Like I said, there's videos,the training, because it is so
low barrier that if it strikes achord, you know we're all
(42:47):
different and different thingshit us differently.
I would love for people to tryit right.
I've given an exercise here.
Just go do that right.
You don't need to buy the book.
If you're curious, do thatthree minute exercise I
described and just see how youfeel.
Run your own internal audit anddebrief and see if maybe this
hits a chord for you.
Jay Johnson (43:09):
Susan, this has been incredible because I you
know when, whenever you're in atraining room or in a coaching
space, you know, bringing play,bringing fun into it, can have a
huge impact on memory, can havea huge impact on and even what
you said there was so important,because a lot of times, if
we're having that emotionalmoment, words may be escaping us
, our cognitive capacity is down, but that doesn't mean that our
(43:31):
emotions cannot be translated,and I really like that frame of
being able to turn the page,being able to express it, put it
out there, solidify it, justrecognize it, that emotional
impact as an appearance.
And now I'm going to flip thepage and I'm going to have a
different emotional impact or adifferent appearance, you know.
So I really, really appreciatewhat you've been able to share
(43:52):
with the audience today andthere's some incredible
takeaways.
If they wanted to get in touchwith you, how might they do so?
Susan Hensley (43:59):
At easiest ways.
My website, it's justsusan-hensleycom and there's a
contact me.
I get all those you know.
Just drop me a note.
Jay Johnson (44:08):
Beautiful, so we'll make sure that that's in the
show notes.
Susan, I can't thank you enough.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation,
everything from act one all theway to the crescendo of act
three and being able to betterunderstand your pathway and how
you've brought those experiencesalong, but really the impact of
being able to play and beingable to silence that inner
(44:30):
critic in a way that'smeaningful.
I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for what you'veshared with the audience here
today.
Susan Hensley (44:36):
Oh, thank you.
I love what you're doing withthis podcast and your message
and all of your background.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
I really appreciate you havingme as a guest.
Thank you.
Jay Johnson (44:46):
Thank you, susan, and thank you, audience, for
tuning into this episode of theTalent Forge, where we are
shaping the future of trainingand development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today I have a special guestwith a lot of interesting
experience and background.
Welcome to the show, susanHensley.
Susan Hensley (00:14):
Thank you, Jay.
I am so happy to be here.
This is one of my favoritesubjects.
Jay Johnson (00:19):
All right.
Well, me too, and our audiencetoo.
So this is going to be reallygreat.
I want them to get to know youbecause you have got a lot of
really cool things going on,Everything from I'm not going to
steal your thunder.
Why don't you introduceyourself?
And then we are going to dig in, because I have so many things
to ask you and I think this isjust going to be a really
(00:40):
valuable conversation.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Susan Hensley (00:43):
Susan is just going to be a really valuable
conversation.
So tell us a little bit aboutyourself, susan Sure.
So when I look back on mycareer I sort of see three acts
and I'm in the third.
There was a first career intelevision journalism.
I was an anchor person,reporter, ran newsrooms, did
that for about 11 years tillthat didn't fit.
Any of your listeners who workin HR do any recruiting know
(01:04):
when motivational fit stops youhave a person who could do it.
Their life doesn't fit, you geta big career switch.
I switched at that point,ironically, into a training and
development role at a globalcompany.
It was a really interestingcase of sort of networking and
leap of faith and really justjumped into that and did that,
(01:28):
moved up through the ranks.
I was ended as an HR executiveoverseeing all the centers of
excellence, including L&D.
Did that for about 23, 25 years.
Then I got into a lot ofexecutive and career coaching,
which then morphed intonavigating life transitions
(01:48):
coaching, because it all sort offits together, and with that I
personally was using a tool andI know your listeners get this
right.
It's one thing to teach andcoach.
It's another thing to reallyuse some of your tools, another
thing to really use some of yourtools.
I had started playing with artand art journaling, which is
(02:14):
about the process of expressionthrough art, not about making
art, so I feel like I need tojust start there every time.
This is not about showinganyone what you're making.
It's very similar to a writtendiary, but really using that
right hemisphere of your brainfor play, for curiosity, for
innovation, and I ended upwriting a book about it.
Now I teach workshops about itand it really fits nicely with
(02:36):
the coaching I do about lifetransitions.
Jay Johnson (02:40):
So that's me in a sort of a one minute snapshot
journalism, and so I have abackground in communications and
(03:04):
I actually studied publicrelations, crisis management,
media relations, and it'sactually really had an impact on
how I think about training, howI think about connecting with
an audience.
Let's take that transition.
So you move from Act One, whereyou're in that space, and you
move into talent development.
What were some of the thingsthat maybe you were able to
(03:25):
bring with you or sort oflessons that you had learned
from act one that really wentinto that act two?
Susan Hensley (03:33):
So it's a great, great question, because one of
the favorite things I like to dowith clients and in a
leadership development programwe rolled out, we had people do
their journey lines right it'sthat storytelling to understand
the peaks and valleys.
And one of the key things Ibrought with me from the years
(03:53):
in media was sort of that noexcuses mentality, right.
When you're on live television,you're just on live TV and no
one I will tell you, no audiencecares.
And it's where you get into thecrisis communications.
You are just working with whatyou have and so it's deep
accountability and it's alsowhat I think if you look at the
(04:14):
competencies that lay withinthat it is action, orientation,
orientation.
There's a real curiositydealing with ambiguity, you know
, and almost a strategic agilitythat goes into it.
And at the time I joined adevelopment team, we were
(04:35):
rolling out 360s and a wholecomp.
This was years ago in acompetency-based suite and I
found it so helpful in so muchof the coaching I was doing
where sometimes in organizationspeople want to say, if
everything is not perfect, Ican't.
If everything's not aligned, ifthis doesn't make sense, I
(04:57):
can't, I'm not accountable.
And as we were working on goalsetting.
I found some of the stories, ifyou will, because people respond
to stories and analogies aboutwhat certain experiences were
like.
It really resonated, no matterwho the audience was, whether it
was with an executive or lineunion employee.
(05:20):
That sense of the camera goeson live and someone throws a
snowball and hits you, which Iactually had happened.
But you need to work.
Honestly, it's a crazy, crazystory.
But you then start to work withwhere is your accountability in
that moment?
What are?
How do you manage your emotionsRight?
(05:41):
Surprise anger.
You know you want to go kill theteenager who thought that would
be so funny, but that's not myprimary accountability, right.
So you talk about it led to somany rich discussions about, you
know, staying focused, job athand, dealing with the surprise,
but not getting off track.
(06:01):
A little bit of a long story,but that was really very
interesting.
It took me a while, right, I'mgoing A little bit of a long
story, but that was really veryinteresting.
It took me a while, right, I'mgoing to be clear, there's
always that ramp up period whenyou go into a new job, but it
was really really helpful as wewere rolling out both 360s and a
competency-based performancemodel to help people, because
(06:23):
it's natural for people to pokeholes and explain all the
reasons why you can't to havethose kind of stories.
I was also at a company thathired a lot from the military.
I actually relied very heavilyon if I had people in the
audience who were veterans andhad served in the military,
because there is, at least atthe time, that sort of we have a
(06:46):
mission, a little bit approachand we're not going to get
sidetracked, and that helped aswe were working on really an
environment of excellence.
Jay Johnson (06:57):
You know it's interesting because strategic
agility, as you said, wassomething I was like it's got to
be.
You gotta be bringing someadaptability in there.
We had a conversation on thisshow, the talent forge with Dr
Esther Jackson and it was allabout like how training is
adaptable.
So I imagine that world from uh, you know the transition of who
(07:20):
knows what's coming next, youknow where's the next.
Uh, you know what's going tohappen in here.
I wasn't anticipating asnowball, that was definitely a
curve, but yeah.
So I think everybody sayseverybody has a player, mike
Tyson, everybody has a plan toget punched in the mouth or, I
guess, now hit with a snowball,according to Susan.
Susan Hensley (07:39):
Much more gentle yeah no, I love it.
Jay Johnson (07:42):
And then you know let's get into that space.
You were in the talentdevelopment space.
I'd like to learn a little bitmore about that.
So you had mentioned you hadworked with was it active
military more veterans or whatdid that look like and how was
that experience for you?
Susan Hensley (08:00):
So it was great.
It was a.
It was a very good hiring poolis what we found as a company.
So definitely no activemilitary right.
We're a private, large,multi-international company.
But we found in recruitingright Anyone who's ever run a
recruiting function, dependingon the jobs, as if you know,
(08:21):
your skill set.
For us there was a really goodpool of people coming out
through some of the bigrecruiting conferences that
support the veterans and wefound both on what I would call
line manufacturing jobs and thenin logistics supply chain right
.
Some of those employees justhad gotten some really really
(08:44):
great training that worked wellin our culture, right, if,
depending on where people'sworkforces are, you know,
finding the right talent withthe right values and mindset.
When you miss it setseverything back, but when you
can hit it and that wassomething I had discovered or
(09:06):
was encountering that I thought,oh, that's so, so interesting.
When we saw some of thecompetencies at least the people
we were hiring came with andhow well many of those
competencies applied to certainjobs we had.
Jay Johnson (09:20):
Now so, and we had a great conversation with Barb
Thompson, who's actually doinglike assessments in the existing
military and just somefantastic work with the active
military.
You know, one of the thingsthat we talked about is when we
think about, like the militarysort of we're going to call it
the mentality right Like, getthe job done, don't complain or
(09:41):
anything else, don't complain oranything else, and I'm assuming
that as they had transitionedinto being veterans and, you
know, out of active duty, didyou see a lot of that mentality
of just like sort of go getter,get the job done, follow, follow
the rules, and did that createany challenges?
Cause it's not just themilitary that carries that
mentality, it can also be somedifferent sort of personality.
(10:03):
You know types that really kindof lock into process, procedure
, precision.
What was your experience onthat?
Susan Hensley (10:12):
Like most things, there's an overuse of skills
that can occur, which createsthe dark side, if you will.
So in coaching, it's right whenthose skills that we just
talked about that theaccountability, get the job done
are applied appropriately andat different levels, you can
(10:33):
have it work better.
Where you would get some of thedark side is as people move
into leadership positions.
If they didn't have strongemotional intelligence, if the
mindset was overly hierarchical.
We were also a veryrelationship-based company and
we really, because it was acompany that had extremely high
(10:56):
engagement scores that we wantedto protect and long service
records, which we also wanted toprotect the coaching and
interventions, if you will, atcertain points, as leaders are
developing in terms ofunderstanding and valuing all
perspectives on a team how towork with, say, people who may
(11:18):
be overly analytical.
Right, who are the folks whoare going to frustrate that
mindset the most?
Folks who maybe get in ananalytical mindset, people who
are really good at pointing outproblems or challenges that need
to be surfaced Right.
There's a time and way.
So we came across the tool andI don't know if you've heard
(11:40):
this or your listeners it wasBelbin team assessments.
It was part of our Lean SixSigma rollout.
I was part of that and that,for the organization I was in,
was terrific because it was allbased on observable behaviors
people had of you and there werelike nine team roles and we did
a lot of work around why everyrole is valued, why we need to
(12:05):
balance teams, teams withguiding principles and a lot of
how we develop teams with veryspecific roles.
That ended up being a reallyhelpful tool that, as we rolled
out Lean Six Sigma to have whatdo high functioning, synergistic
(12:26):
teams look like and we had somereally good training and
partners.
And then most of us in HRbecame certified in the tool and
then really used it to helpestablish higher performing
teams.
Jay Johnson (12:41):
You know it's funny you said the tool and I was
like that sounds familiar.
Why does that sound familiar?
And as soon as you said SixSigma you know I've done work
with the industrial and systemsengineering at Wayne State
University and I was like that'swhere it came from, yep, all
right, so all right, let's talkabout that.
Though.
So you moved yourself up.
You joined this and you said itwas 23 years in this space.
(13:02):
So, from that place to anexecutive level, what were some
of the key aspects of yoursuccess?
From developing the people,obviously, you brought in the
agility.
You brought in some of thoseother aspects of being able to
be accountable to yourself.
But at the executive level, howshould our audience be thinking
(13:23):
about creating the conditionsfor success in an enterprise, in
an international organization?
Susan Hensley (13:31):
Yeah, because I think I had a helpful mindset I
didn't recognize at the timebecause I didn't come in
attached, deeply attached.
I got hired into organizationaldevelopment department and
doing this, and they saw how thecompetencies I had a brilliant
original boss would transferthat my competencies and
(13:51):
descriptors of what I did when Iran newsrooms would translate
to this current environment.
The company that I worked atwas very good and I think it's
some very skilled people atunderstanding the competencies
needed.
That had to be demonstratedversus exact experience, and
(14:12):
what I did when I got there isanytime.
I was asked to take on aspecial project, I said yes, I
would ask why, right, because itwouldn't be intuitive Led the
deployment of Lean Six Sigma.
And I do not consider myself ananalytical person.
My education is incommunications and social
(14:33):
science, right, and so I saidwhy.
And the answer I got was it wasabout change management and
leadership.
There were enough people withdeep statistical analysis I
could learn it, enough to getcertified and to do a project.
I worked with the sales force,not the manufacturing floor,
right?
So I got a break there.
(14:55):
For a person who's not deep instatistics, always better to go
work with the sales force, workon your people.
You know, leverage what broughtyou your people skills.
So I would take any role.
I did a finance supply chainrole in Asia.
Even so, because the companywas very willing to move people
(15:16):
to create really well-roundedleaders, I just took every
opportunity and I think notcoming from a narrow background
really helped me be very open tothese opportunities and made me
a more effective coach later.
Because it's like why do yousee that I could have an impact?
(15:39):
What is it you're wanting me tobring?
You know, I'm always reallyhonest.
I didn't have you know.
In a finance role, I had tobuild a really great finance
team and I had to humble myselfand say this I'm not a leader
who can do your job Right.
I can, at a high level,understand it, but which isn't
the ideal model.
Jay Johnson (16:00):
We sometimes like leaders who can go and do the
technical side if they have to.
Susan Hensley (16:06):
Yeah, and it was a real stretch and we were also
in Hong Kong.
I'd moved my family.
That was one of the harderrotations.
But once again, I kept askingbefore I moved halfway around
the world with the family and Iadvised people all this time why
?
And it was rebuild the team,Develop a stronger strategy
(16:26):
right, we're going to expect youto understand the financials
right, you can't not be thereand not understand it.
But we are going to allow thatas an allowable weakness because
of problem solving skills withports and customs and logistics,
and then an ability to build ateam so that when the expat me
(16:49):
in this case rolled back, we hada better local team than when
was there.
But very humbling and, I think,also important to get people to
take those sort of risks inorganizations, because that's
where you get growth right.
When you are on that edge ofdiscomfort not, you know, full
on meltdown, but you areuncomfortable every single day
(17:11):
you get a lot of learnings.
Jay Johnson (17:13):
There's so much in what you said that resonates
with me, you know, and I eventhink about it.
Number one is that our sharedbackground in communication.
My first hire was to theindustrial and systems
engineering department at WayneState University.
I I my claim to fame was Ideferred getting my
(17:33):
undergraduate degree for twoyears because of the math
proficiency examination andeverything else like that.
It was just like nah, just, I'mgood, I'm fine.
You know, I've learned a littlemath along the way but, to your
point, I was able to thrive inan engineering environment
because I was adaptable, becauseI was able to communicate,
because, you know, being able toleverage.
(17:55):
They made me project manager ofa $3 million national science
foundation grant for mathematicsin high schools and it was just
like.
So that adaptability, thatbeing able to kind of
communicate and connect withpeople, it's just, it's so
important.
But the other thing that yousaid that I think is super
interesting and I want to dig injust a little bit more.
(18:18):
As you were going through thisprocess and you're bouncing from
one place to another place, toa different project to a
different project, what you'regaining there is not just,
obviously, experience, butknowledge of the entire business
function and that's one of thethings that I really highly
promote to everybody in L&D islike don't get stuck in your
(18:40):
department, get out there andlearn what all these other
departments are actually doing.
Get in there, get your handsdirty.
Can you talk just a little bitabout what that did for you as a
learning leader or as anexecutive, to really get your
hand around all of thesedifferent experiences and all of
this different aspects of theorganization?
Susan Hensley (19:03):
Yeah, it's such a great question because I agree
with you.
Right, we're sitting here sortof in like violent agreement.
You're talking like yes, yes,because credibility.
I think sometimes in the worstcase scenario you know any
viewer ever saw the Office inthe worst case scenario, if you
(19:26):
are standing in front of a groupand you are trying to get them
to stretch, to try new things,to learn and how we approach
adult learning, the morecredibility you can have in the
business, the more stretch youhave gone through one.
It makes you empathetic.
(19:47):
You know how scary, how exposedyou can feel, how vulnerable,
and I think it's reallyimportant that people who are
doing learning development fullydemonstrate that sweet, if you
will, of human emotion, becausewe're asking people to learn
(20:09):
something new, to try and dosomething a different way to
expose.
Maybe they don't get it, maybethey're not doing it right the
first time, what's going tohappen if they don't grow right?
It's important to understandall those fears that lay under
this, versus having a personwant to say this is the flavor
(20:30):
of the month and I'm just goingto hunker down and ignore you,
and that's what I call the bigfear you don't.
And so, having done a number ofdifferent roles, having seen
the business from sort of theground up, not having always
done the jobs, but really havingseen how both horizontally
(20:51):
integrated this business was,that I was working, I was very
lucky created, I think, a littlebit of a bond or some empathy,
if you will, to try and create asafe environment to get people
to stretch when we were together.
Jay Johnson (21:10):
So powerful.
And thank you for going intothat, because I really do think
that the more that we have abroader experience, the more
that we can empathize with thosein the finance department, with
those in the supply chain, withthose in the production systems
, those in the legal, and all ofa sudden, when we get a bigger,
brighter picture of the wholeentity, it really gives us the
(21:34):
ability to serve each individualcomponent at a much stronger
level.
So I love that comment and Ithink it's a great takeaway for
our audience here Now as wetransition into Act 3, you move
out of that position, get intosome coaching and obviously take
that to a whole new level.
And part of that experience isalso bringing in.
(21:58):
And I want you to mention thetitle of your book so that way
we can let people into that.
But talk about because you said,art early on and I guarantee if
anybody's out there like me,I'm like all right, my art is
stick figures and anything.
You preface this.
You caught me right.
I mean you predicted mybehavior right then and there
you know, for those of us thatare not considered ourselves
(22:19):
artists, talk about what this is, what this tool, how's it
function and how do you deploythis in the coaching framework
to be able to help people reallykind of transform themselves?
Susan Hensley (22:31):
I'll give you a speck of the backstory because
of who your audience is.
At the time I got into this, Iwas overseeing all the centers
for excellence and one of thepeople who was on my team was
the head of learning anddevelopment and she had a side
hustle.
She's a fantastic artist andyou know we're standing around
as happens.
This was pre COVID, when wewere, you know, fully in the
(22:55):
office and rest of us are sayingyou know, I can barely draw a
smiley face.
Right, I do hearts.
My doodle is like a heart and asmiley face, which is true
today.
I want to just keep prefacingthat.
And she says you know what?
I'll have a few of you comeover on a Saturday.
I'll show you the color wheel,teach you just a few things.
It'll be fun.
You know cheese and crackers,maybe a glass of wine.
(23:16):
So about five of us head to herhouse, right, it was a very
collegial place.
I worked on Saturday it's twohours and she gave us some
paints and I had a little pieceof paper and she's explaining
the color wheel.
Well, I'm over there in thecorner just with my paints and I
truly ended up creating a brownmess.
I found out the reason itturned brown?
Because I was impatient.
I learned that later from aperson who knows art.
(23:38):
At the time it was like ooh,mystery, right.
But what I noticed and this iswhere all of the career coaching
and different things that HRprofessionals do is it was a
glimmer, it lit me up, it wasfun.
The inner critic was gone thattwo hours where I sat there just
playing with I think it waslike a maybe a purple and a blue
(24:02):
or whatever.
I actually took the soggylittle piece of paper home, I
hung it on the refrigerator andmy husband and son are like, wow
, what is this?
Because once again, it's like aRorschach test.
You know the block test and Ifollowed that.
I'm a huge fan of the bookDesigning your Life.
I don't know if anyone in theaudience you've heard of it.
(24:22):
So it was a glimmer and I'mcommitted to following those.
So I started to just play withart.
I had a younger child at homeso we had some crayons.
It's still in the house andI'll tell you right now that's
the key to keeping it playfuland to silencing your inner
critic.
I've been doing this seven,eight years.
(24:43):
I have not advanced veryintentionally beyond the art
supplies you find in a Target, aMichaels, a Walmart, the kids
section.
Because as an adult and I teachthis in my workshops when you
are holding a crayon you are nottaking yourself overly
seriously.
I have yet to meet an adultwho's got like a blue and pink
(25:04):
crayon and is like I am going tonail this right.
Instead, it silences the innercritic.
It opens us up to curiosity,right.
It opens us up to some play,and that is where you know, in
all the brain science, that'swhere the ideas, that much more
(25:27):
holistic, creative place comesthrough.
I started just playing at home,quite honestly, and I was
enjoying it, so I kept doing it,even just a few minutes, while
I was, you know, getting dinnerready, or I had a few colored
pens.
You know you're waiting in aschool pickup line.
You know in the car, instead oflike scrolling on my phone,
(25:51):
which you know still do want tofully own, that you know I can
go down the that rabbit holestarted to play with color
collage.
I love a Elmer's glue stick andthe pandemic hit a couple of
years later.
I really gaveled down on it andusing it to help process all
(26:12):
the emotions and everything thatwas happening.
At the time.
The job got insane, right,because we had a split workforce
.
Anyone who worked in HR duringthat period just knows how much
more difficult the job became,and really still is, because
anyone who's managing aworkforce who maybe doesn't want
(26:32):
to be in person, right.
Jay Johnson (26:34):
There's still some difficult decisions and
behaviors that are, yeah,absolutely.
Susan Hensley (27:04):
Yeah, absolutely using it.
As for me, I, you know, wasn'tsharing it but it did help me
clarify during that period thatyou know.
I said when COVID was over it'sso funny that I was going to
leave I had always planned onperhaps doing something else
about five years later than Idid and I realized I was as much
as I still love the company anddo consulting work for them and
work for a few years sort ofpart-time after that role at
(27:27):
that time and I gave 18 monthsnotice.
So I gave lots of notice juststopped fitting me and I was
really using the art journal andthat's where I recognized so
much of my coaching.
Although I still do a lot ofcareer and executive coaching,
the interest was much more inhelping people with a much more
(27:48):
holistic the whole person.
I think really good careerleadership executive coaches get
under that and understand thewhy the North Star for that
executive or that employee,because then it helps you align,
it helps them help you alignall the other behaviors.
But there's a really greatcertification program on
(28:11):
navigating transitions that Idid.
But it was the art journal thattook me on a different path
sooner than I thought and withgreater ease and curiosity I
became.
I think I used to give lipservice to the power of
curiosity.
You know, in Lean Six Sigma youlearn the five whys.
(28:33):
I think lots of people use thatright.
It's why, why, why, root causeanalysis yeah.
Yeah, that can sound right, veryleft brain, very linear, a bit
accusatory sometimes, whenyou're asking it sort of of
yourself like why does this feelgood?
Why am I enjoying it?
Why am I telling myself I needto keep doing this?
Is it a social construct?
(28:54):
Is it my deep need to try andbe perfect, to achieve?
And I resemble all those thingsright?
I still do a somewhat type Apersonality.
I love lists and plans, but Ineeded balance.
I think that's really what thepandemic helped me to see and
art journaling helped me to seeis I needed to balance, if you
(29:19):
will, these various aspects ofmy personality into a little
more joyful, curious,self-compassionate form.
Jay Johnson (29:28):
So I love this Susan and for many reasons.
Number one, as you said, myfavorite word balance, which is
something that I really try topromote, and in every aspect.
So during the pandemic I got aset of paints and I like
creativity, so I am actually avery creative person.
It does not come out very wellin music or in art or anything
(29:51):
else, but I painted the entirewall upstairs as a mural.
It was like this sort of likeenvironmental scene.
It wasn't great, but at onepoint in time my ex-wife had
come upstairs Ex-wife now at thetime just with my wife, and
looked at it and was just like,wow, you did that.
And I was like I wasn't proudof it, but it was something that
was just like.
It was cathartic.
(30:11):
I'm up there and I was justpainting and it really did kind
of feel like I was playing or Iwas sort of discovering or
anything else.
So I ended up doing a little bitof research on so my
background's in psychology andneuroscience as well as
communication, and I did some ofthe research.
There's incredible researchabout how impactful art therapy
(30:33):
can be for things like stress,anxiety, for even things where
people have like and I've neverhad shyness as one of the things
as my labels, but for somebodyexpressing themselves or being
more expressive about theiremotions, feelings, et cetera.
So I'm really digging whatyou're talking about here.
You're translating a lot ofthat really powerful science
(30:56):
into a concept of art journaling.
And I want to dig in on that ontwo different questions.
One, what does that look like Ifyou, if you were to even talk
about the process of it, of, ofstarting right?
Because I can imagine, I canimagine myself sitting there and
going what am I supposed todraw?
How do I do this Like, what amI thinking?
(31:17):
Or anything else?
That's a, that's a type, apersonality in me that would be
coming out.
And then the second question ishow do you overcome resistance?
Because I know and this is trueof any time play comes into
adult learning in any way, shapeor form.
You've got people oh, this issilly, this is dumb, and it is
that sort of ego protectivemeasure of, oh, I'm not going to
(31:40):
be, and in reality those arethe people that ended up having
the most fun once they get intoit.
So that's my two frames herethat I'd love for you to explore
a little bit.
Number one is what would youeven do to get started in some
space like this.
And then number two how did weovercome that resistance, that
imposter syndrome or that sortof that anti-child that we all
(32:02):
try to suppress at some point intime, god knows why?
Susan Hensley (32:06):
Okay One I love the fact that you did the mural.
Thank you so much for sharingthat, because everything I'm
about to tell you, with artjournaling, so much lower
barrier than painting a mural ona wall.
That is courageous, so good foryou, that's fantastic.
Uh, I'm going to answer thequestion by telling you an
(32:28):
opening exercise that I haveused at uh health spas and
wellness retreats, where peopleare are coming to to my talk.
You know labeled, you know howto use art to get in touch with
yourself, life transitions, andI've used in corporate settings.
So I'm just going to walk youthrough it, because it does both
things.
Have folks come in.
(32:49):
I may introduce a few concepts.
I give them all a piece ofpaper.
It's five by seven.
I pass around a bowl of crayonstape, say tape, two crayons,
okay, so this is what we'regoing to do.
I'm going to put on a song.
It's last three minutes.
During that three minutes,you're going to take your two
crayons and you are going tofill this piece of paper.
(33:12):
It's only five by seven, it'snot even eight by 10.
I don't care how you fill itScribble, doodle but that's the
exercise I've using.
Taylor, I spread them out.
So, particularly in thecorporate retreat.
I ended up being the first timeI did it.
I was the after lunch.
It was a strategic planningoffsite.
I'm after lunch and you knowall the hierarchies there, right
(33:35):
, it's executive VP down to likemaybe some directors, and so
people are really focused.
I'm like here's crayon.
So I made them spread out.
Everyone got their space,introduced, the concepts put on
shake it off, taylor Swift song.
I just played my Apple music tothree minutes.
Go Three minutes.
(33:55):
End.
Crayons down, don't show anyone.
Tell me how you feel, justshout it out and I'm just
writing on the board.
Silly, playful.
How did it go by so fast?
Totally different, right, and Imean without fail.
When I do this exercise, thoseare the words free, giggly, and
(34:22):
then we debrief it morethoroughly.
It's like how does your bodyfeel right now?
What's your breathing?
Right?
So I try and get themsomatically to focus on what's
really going on.
Then I will step way back andintroduce the whys.
Right, the exercise works foryour audience because it's
constrained exercise.
(34:43):
There is, once again, very hardfor adults who only have two
crayons and three minutes andare not going to show it to
anyone.
Like anyone who wants to throwit away, throw it away.
No one throws it away.
People save it.
Some people give it to meafterwards Like I just want you
to have this, like oh, I mean, Ilove that, it's really
(35:04):
interesting.
I will say, if you want to wadit up and throw it away, right,
that was for you.
That was a somatic play breakthat was completely sanctioned.
I have been blown away.
I did an online training thatgoes with the book about this
but that highly constrained.
(35:25):
You've got music.
It doesn't have to be that song.
If you look at your music onyour phone there's either three
or four minute songs.
I would keep it as short.
I'd keep it upbeat, becausethat really helps people.
So those are the reasons.
I'm hoping that demonstrationof the exercise sort of answers
your questions.
Jay Johnson (35:45):
It does, because it seems to me and obviously not
being an expert in this space,but it seems to me what you've
done is you've lowered thebarrier by giving the permission
, you've reduced the complexityof the exercise because you only
have two crayons and there'snot all that much you're going
to be able to do.
Complexity of the exercisebecause you only have two
crayons and there's not all thatmuch you're going to be able to
do.
You have given a guideline offill this and it's small, so it
(36:07):
seems like, okay, I've got threeminutes to fill this, I can do
that.
That's an easy task and thebrain probably lets go of some
of its sort of barriers.
There's a really great professorat Wayne State University,
actually Dr Pradeep Sapori, whoended up studying and I worked
(36:30):
with him.
He was one of my graduateadvisors at the time, but I'd
worked with him on the conceptsof play and the impact that it
has on relationships, creativity, communication, and one of the
things that we found was couplesthat play together stay
together.
So the fact that you're doingthis inside of an executive
boardroom really makes a lot ofsense, because not only is it an
individualized task where it'ssafe and they don't have to do
(36:51):
it, but on some level they'restill playing together, aren't
they?
Susan Hensley (36:56):
Yeah, we talk about because after right after
sort of an opening exercise, ifyou will talk about the whys
right, people right, these areexecutives want to understand
what's happened.
We talk about the inner critic.
I use research that I found toyour point.
In the last few years or before, there's been some great, great
work.
I referenced both in my book.
I got really lucky.
(37:16):
There's a terrific book outright now called your Brain on
Art that explains both what wefeel when we create and it can
also include music, dance, right, it's like with big AR and I'm
you know I'm talking aboutsomething on a page but also
what happens in our brains whenwe observe it and listen to it
and take it in, and it's justfor the mental health challenges
(37:40):
we are facing as a society, sohelpful.
So I try and introduce the whybecause executives want that.
And then we start talking aboutthe inner critic and the fact
that most people and these arepeople who are in a boardroom,
right Stop being creative.
They got messages, researchshows by about eight or nine.
(38:01):
So I really ask people to goback to about five, four and
five and be your own proudparent, right, depending on your
folks, they're maybe puttingstuff on the refrigerator and
you're admiring thatfive-year-old artist work.
That's inadvertently what I did.
I tried to really disaggregatemy own experience with that mess
(38:23):
that brown sort of soggy messputting it on my refrigerator
following the glimmer.
I tried to pull that apart,understand the science or
research, and then the book issort of done by chapters it's
not a workbook and then some ofthe research, the online
training and the workshops.
(38:44):
I do sort of really lay out thehow-to.
And we talk so much about theinner critic and can you let
that inner critic go for fiveminutes or 10 minutes?
Right, it's a short period.
It's almost honoring.
You keep me safe and you helpme a lot.
You push me to be my best.
I don't need this.
This is just play, and anyonewho's ever observed kids, little
(39:06):
kids, on a playground, theyhave no trouble Like uh-uh, this
is my swing.
And I joke with adults,executives, like when you were a
kid, how'd you say to anotherkid you don't come.
That's what you're going to doto your inner critic before I
launch them into you know theirnext exercise, because they're
(39:28):
you know, by the time we hit thenext exercise, they're ready
for me, right?
Their inner critics gettingready and the fight of this,
even though they're having fundsabout to begin.
So that's where I really tryand do work around talking to
that inner critic, acknowledgingit, asking it to stand aside,
that this is safe play right,this is not exposure, it's not
(39:50):
dangerous.
Jay Johnson (39:51):
So you've used this inside of that space.
Obviously, you've used this foryour own personal
transformation, personaldevelopment, and you wrote a
book about it.
And can you tell us a littlebit about the book and what the
audience would expect when theygo get this, because I've
already put it into my queue?
So let's talk about art andsanity and go ahead and give the
(40:15):
full title.
Susan Hensley (40:17):
Okay.
So it's called Art for yourSanity.
The subtitle is really how artjournaling can manage chaos and
unleash joy.
And that's a really personalsubtitle because that's what it
did for me during the pandemic,during the life transition Book
is.
It's a simple, straightforwardbook.
You can get it anywhere.
(40:37):
You buy books, right?
Amazon is also an e-version,but I tried to really lay out it
in segments the case for playand why.
The case for how it's a safecontainer for challenging
emotions.
We talked about sort of thatspace of art therapy.
And then the inner wisdom andwithin that I have personal
(40:58):
stories.
I published which I neverthought I'd do my art journal
pages to show some of them.
The extremely low barrier.
It looks like a kindergartnerdid it?
It still does.
I mean there's one where I'vegot this little face screaming.
I was extremely upset and it's,you know, a little emoji type
face is screaming.
It's like the famous paintingthe Scream.
(41:19):
It's like shame, rage and allthese slashes which at the time
I felt.
You go back and look at thatand you have huge compassion to
the person who was experiencingthat level of emotion.
But it's safe, it's on the page, it's dried.
I mean even the act of turninga page is such a good reminder
(41:40):
for how we are not our emotions.
They are temporary.
We are resilient.
We can process these in aconstructive way.
It's not we don't feel themright.
We feel them but we process andwork with them in a creative,
constructive way and then youquite literally can turn the
page.
You can go back and revisit andremember how difficult that day
(42:04):
was in your life or that period.
So the book sort of goes throughthat, as does online training
that I've done and workshops.
But that's the premise of itand I did it because in my
coaching practice I wasone-on-one saying to clients,
along with different tools, givethis a try.
(42:24):
And I recognized a moreefficient way to try and put it
out in the world was to write ashort book.
You know, on the websitethere's a PDF, a free PDF, of
like how to get started.
Like I said, there's videos,the training, because it is so
low barrier that if it strikes achord, you know we're all
(42:47):
different and different thingshit us differently.
I would love for people to tryit right.
I've given an exercise here.
Just go do that right.
You don't need to buy the book.
If you're curious, do thatthree minute exercise I
described and just see how youfeel.
Run your own internal audit anddebrief and see if maybe this
hits a chord for you.
Jay Johnson (43:09):
Susan, this has been incredible because I you
know when, whenever you're in atraining room or in a coaching
space, you know, bringing play,bringing fun into it, can have a
huge impact on memory, can havea huge impact on and even what
you said there was so important,because a lot of times, if
we're having that emotionalmoment, words may be escaping us
, our cognitive capacity is down, but that doesn't mean that our
(43:31):
emotions cannot be translated,and I really like that frame of
being able to turn the page,being able to express it, put it
out there, solidify it, justrecognize it, that emotional
impact as an appearance.
And now I'm going to flip thepage and I'm going to have a
different emotional impact or adifferent appearance, you know.
So I really, really appreciatewhat you've been able to share
(43:52):
with the audience today andthere's some incredible
takeaways.
If they wanted to get in touchwith you, how might they do so?
Susan Hensley (43:59):
At easiest ways.
My website, it's justsusan-hensleycom and there's a
contact me.
I get all those you know.
Just drop me a note.
Jay Johnson (44:08):
Beautiful, so we'll make sure that that's in the
show notes.
Susan, I can't thank you enough.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation,
everything from act one all theway to the crescendo of act
three and being able to betterunderstand your pathway and how
you've brought those experiencesalong, but really the impact of
being able to play and beingable to silence that inner
(44:30):
critic in a way that'smeaningful.
I just want to say thank you.
Thank you for what you'veshared with the audience here
today.
Susan Hensley (44:36):
Oh, thank you.
I love what you're doing withthis podcast and your message
and all of your background.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
I really appreciate you havingme as a guest.
Thank you.
Jay Johnson (44:46):
Thank you, susan, and thank you, audience, for
tuning into this episode of theTalent Forge, where we are
shaping the future of trainingand development.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.