May 2, 2025 • 36 mins
The digital workplace isn't just changing how we work—it's fundamentally altering how we communicate, learn, and connect. After spending years interviewing dozens of Millennial and Gen Z professionals, Dr. Craig Mattson uncovered surprising patterns in how people cope with the constant barrage of platforms, tools, and digital expectations.
While popular advice suggests digital minimalism as the solution, Mattson's research reveals a more nuanced reality. For most professionals, simply using fewer tools isn't an option. Instead, developing what he calls "digital flexibility" proves far more effective—the ability to navigate between different communication modes depending on the situation.
Whether you're leading remote teams, designing training programs, or simply trying to stay sane in your own digital workday, this conversation provides practical strategies for turning digital overwhelm into digital flexibility. Check out Dr. Mattson's book "Digital Overwhelm" and connect with him at themodeswitch.com to continue the conversation.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Dr Craig Mattson.
Welcome to the show, craig.
Dr. Craig Mattson (00:13):
Grateful to be here.
I love the whole image of atalent forge.
That's a cool metaphor.
I like to think of what's beingforged in this particular
moment.
Jay Johnson (00:24):
The most important resource of any organization the
people Right.
So let's get into this and I'dlove to audience to get to know
you a little bit.
How did you get into teaching?
Obviously a university position.
What's your experience andbackground, craig?
Dr. Craig Mattson (00:41):
Like most Americans.
If you ask me who I am, I'llprobably tell you my job, what I
do.
I'm a professor of mediaproduction, communication
related to marketing and othersimilar fields at Calvin
University in Grand Rapids,michigan.
But that's not who I am really.
I'm formed by many communitiesof people through my life who
(01:06):
have animated my work, inspiredmy work and shaped it.
I grew up in a family ofeducators, and so teaching and
you might say, talentdevelopment and mentoring has
always been a part of thehouseholds I've been in, and
that makes me eager to be inthis conversation with you, jay
holds I've been in and thatmakes me eager to be in this
(01:27):
conversation with you, Jay.
Jay Johnson (01:31):
I love that.
Craig, so we are neighbors,being in Battle Creek, about an
hour away from you.
And Calvin, what a greatuniversity.
So we also share a little bitof that interest in the
communication.
So my degrees were actually incommunication, public relations
and a number of other things.
How has your practice, studyand sort of background in that
space really helped you tobecome a mentor, or what has
(01:52):
that done for your engagement inbeing able to teach and train
other people?
Dr. Craig Mattson (01:59):
I think the most formative experience of the
last few years has been someresearch I've done, interviewing
dozens of Gen Z and millennialprofessionals and asking them in
the early 2020s, how are youdealing Like, how are you coping
with the intensities andpressures of the workplace?
I think when I was asking thosequestions I was assuming like
(02:21):
it was a brief temporary periodof intensity.
It hasn't really lightened up,so the workplace continues to be
really fraught for many, manyprofessionals today.
But talking with these folksfrom all over the country and
lots of different guilds andindustries, that has really
(02:41):
inspired me to think morecarefully about my own mentoring
work.
In a way, I feel mentored by myresearch participants, some of
whom were students from 20 yearsago.
But, yeah, what does mentoring,what does leadership, what does
talent development look like inworkplaces that are hybrid,
that are remote, that are oftenconducted in spaces like the one
(03:04):
you and I are in right now?
Yeah, so those are questionsthat really inspire me and I
think my research participantshave been my teacher in many
ways.
Jay Johnson (03:14):
I love that.
So I'm going to dig into thatresearch in a moment.
But how did it feel to behaving some of these
conversations with younger theyoung generations that are, you
know, just emerging into theworkspace?
What was that like for you?
Dr. Craig Mattson (03:30):
Well, there were many conversations that
were inspiring full stop.
I was like, wow, you havefigured out workarounds in some
crazy work situations, some verydifficult organizational
settings.
You figured it out, go you.
And so some of it was justinspiring, but some of it was
also disconcerting.
(03:51):
So I remember an interview whichI happened to be able to hold
in a coffee shop with a personwho worked in marketing in the
Chicagoland area, and I rememberher telling me over a cup of
coffee that, yeah, I don't thinkmy work has any meaning.
And I was like, whoa, what areyou talking about?
(04:12):
Like, work is like, that's whatwe do, and you know, as a
millennial, she had somequestions about that.
Institutions hadn't served heras well after the great
recession of 08 as they hadserved me before 08.
And so I think that wasdisconcerting.
That was surprising to me andsomething I had to like figure
(04:35):
out how to factor that into theways I would talk about
organizational development.
And some of the stories werejust sad, like they.
They they made me feel heavy.
Sometimes people are facingpressures and intensities in the
workplace that they shouldn'thave to it.
It should be better, we shouldbe doing better than we are, and
(04:57):
so some of the stories werewere um sobering to me as well
sobering to me as well, I canimagine.
Jay Johnson (05:07):
Can you give me an example of maybe one of the
stories that landed you?
Dr. Craig Mattson (05:09):
know in any of those categories for you so
inspiring?
I'll start there because that'sencouraging.
I'm thinking about a person whowas working in health care in
COVID, which, as you can imagine, was a particularly intense
time.
She was working in intake in, Ithink, an emergency room, so
(05:30):
it's got to be one of the mostdifficult spots on the planet at
that moment, and she talkedabout ways that she tried to
show compassion towards thepeople who were coming in.
That was hard and it took a lotof moral effort on her part.
She also had to deal with someof the limits of the physicians
(05:50):
that she was working under, soshe was kind of mediating.
She was working betweenphysicians who were stressed out
and patients who were scared orangry.
And that story of like showingcompassion, I you know I can
imagine her like looking atsomebody's cracked phone screen
like is my baby?
And she just takes a moment tolike talk with that person.
(06:11):
You know, somehow she figuredthat out and I found that really
inspiring.
I heard those stories repeatedlyabout people who, yeah, were in
situations where they wonderlike what's the point of this,
like what's the meaning in this?
But the last category was thosestories that sobered me and I
(06:33):
think some of those were stories.
This is going to sound like I'msort of ratcheting this up to
11 really fast, but like sexualharassment stories, people who
are dealing with unethicalbosses or supervisors and, yeah,
the situations that they asyoung professionals I mean there
(06:53):
were terrible situations forany age group of women,
professionals in particular I'mthinking of but yeah, especially
for someone you know, just sortof out of college facing this
kind of inequity and aggressionand disrespect, so that that was
certainly in that last categoryof like whoa this is.
This is hard, hard stuff peopleare dealing with.
Jay Johnson (07:16):
Yeah, and I definitely want to get to having
some conversations about howthat research might inform us as
HR people, as trainers andcoaches.
I want to go back to theinspirational story, because
I've done a lot of work in thathealthcare space and actually
was asked to develop abehavioral science focused
(07:37):
approach to managing burnout andsituations and it's interesting
to me that that communication,that compassion, that sort of
came through, because a lot ofpeople look at that and say,
okay, maybe it's compassionfatigue, but that's actually not
what the science teaches us.
Can you share with us a littlebit more about how did she or he
(08:00):
maybe demonstrate in that space, right, how did they
demonstrate that resilience tokind of keep coming back to the
wheel?
Did you have any conversationsthat revolved around that?
Dr. Craig Mattson (08:11):
Well, what I could glean from, you know,
talking with professionals likethis, this woman professional in
a ED during COVID.
It's not complicated stuff.
It's, in a way, what a friendof mine calls kindergarten
ethics.
It's being responsive toanother human being.
(08:31):
It involves listening, itinvolves speaking carefully and
slowly and without losing yourcontrol in situations that maybe
push you to lose your control.
So it wasn't anything supersophisticated, it's just that it
was being practicedconsistently, at least by these
reports.
(08:51):
It was being practicedconsistently in situations that,
wow, it would have been hard todo even that sort of basic
moral work of listening topeople, speaking kindly to
people, trying to see what theiractual need is.
But I did encounter people whoare experiencing burnout.
I remember a researchparticipant who I had known for
(09:12):
a long time and I kind ofcircled back and said, hey, I'm
doing this study, would you bewilling to talk with me?
This guy worked in healthinsurance and he began, you know
, I had always thought of him asthis sort of charismatic, you
know, really quick-witted,genuinely funny and talented guy
, and when he, you know, when wegot into this interview, he had
(09:35):
a hat on with a large bill andhe kind of kept that bill,
sometimes between his gaze andmine, like I couldn't figure it.
I couldn't read it, I couldn'tfigure out what was going on
there, but he was experiencingburnout, he was exhausted.
And he was exhausted as amid-level manager, top down and
bottom up, which is a reallyhard space to be in.
(09:57):
His administrators, he said,were regularly gaslighting and
he said the gaslighting isrampant at his company.
And then, yeah, as the team hewas leading, he was feeling
burned out on theirincomprehension of what he was
saying.
He was like why do I have torepeat this so often?
What's going on?
(10:18):
So that's one instance ofburnout that I remember pretty
clearly and it had markedphysical, you know, signs um in
in this guy's demeanor.
Jay Johnson (10:30):
Well, and it's interesting that you bring that
up, um, actually one of thecoaches that I work with, she
does a lot of work in burnout,her name's Francesca Amante, and
one of the things that she hasrelated is how burnout can often
feel like a concept of betrayalwhen somebody feels, betrayed.
You know, when we feel that sortof aspect of betrayal and I'm
(10:53):
thinking about the inspirationalstory as it compares to this
example here where maybe thatperson in the inspirational
story feels like they wereworking towards that higher
purpose helping other peoplethey knew the why, which means
that they were able to make thewhat and the how actually
function, Whereas, you know,this individual might have felt
(11:13):
that sense of betrayal from upor that sense of betrayal from
down, which then all of a suddencreates the conditions that our
emotions.
You know, we start to protectourselves, we start to turn
inward rather than outward, andturning outward, as it happens,
is one of the powerful antidotesthat we have for burnout.
It's getting away from internal.
(11:35):
So I just found it reallyinteresting, as you were talking
through that and you know andthinking about it, because the
other thing that I think aboutis you know whether you're in
the middle of covid or whetheryou're in the middle of some
kind of a health crisis.
There's still things that a lotof our organizations or HR
people have to think about, likecontinuing education units,
which I know are rampant inhealthcare and even in health
(11:57):
insurance or real estate or CPAsor whatever else, and I was
thinking about that aspect oflike.
Okay, when we know this andfrom your research, when we know
what these experiences exist,how can we motivate somebody to
say, yeah, I want to learn more,I want to dig in, I want to be
better tomorrow?
In this space where I'm feelingmiserable or I'm feeling
(12:19):
betrayed or I'm feeling whatever, can you speak to that at all?
Dr. Craig Mattson (12:22):
Craig, it's interesting.
As I said, I teach at CalvinUniversity and we were just
talking yesterday a small cohortof us of trying to develop some
better continuing education forprofessors who need to teach
adult learners, which might be adifferent demographic than what
they've mostly taught with whatwe call undergraduate learners.
(12:44):
They are also our adults, to beclear.
But yeah so, and motivation wasthe thing that came up, like we
can design these beautiful, youknow modules.
We can design asynchronousclasses, we can design materials
that are like well-produced andreally contain practical, uh,
strategies, but at the same time, like people are doing a lot,
(13:06):
people are, they have more to dothan they know what to do with,
and so to say, hey, here's thisamazing resource that will take
seven weeks.
That sounds daunting.
And so, yeah, I think, frankly,one of the means that came up
to motivate people.
We were just talking aboutmoney, like how does offering a
stipend support people in anorganization?
(13:28):
And somebody in the cohort andthe table brought up the point
that sometimes stipends justsort of disappear into your
paycheck and you don't feel likeyou got any fun money out of it
.
It's just like somehow onworkday somewhere.
So he was like, could we giveout a specific kind of gift card
.
You know that might be like oh,I get to do this.
You know it might be even lessmoney, but so I think sometimes
(13:51):
extrinsic motivators areimportant.
But, frankly, when peopleexperience something like
exhaustion or their own sense ofhow do I handle this, their own
sense of I don't feel competentfor what is in front of me,
(14:12):
that provides some intrinsicmotivation, and so I think some
kind of mixture of the two isprobably where we need to go.
There are always people whowant to grow, so you can like
find those folks, but then thereare people who are like no, I'm
good, I'm where I am and that'sall I got.
You know life for right now.
But, and for those people youmight need to do the more
(14:32):
extrinsic kind of motivation.
How's that sound to you, jay?
Like, how does that resonatewith your study and research?
Jay Johnson (14:38):
Yeah, it's actually really interesting.
We did a test at anorganization where we did a B
testing.
One of the things that we hadwas an incentive based program
where it was essentially theycould earn gift cards or they
could earn some kind offinancial value for every course
that they took or foreverything that they went into
the LMS or for every hour.
(14:58):
So we had to split up like that, where it was like, okay, we're
tracking the number of hours,but what we actually found to be
more effective and I can sharemore about this with you, this
is one of the big areas that I'mfocused on is learner
motivation.
What we actually found wasrandom dispersal of rewards.
(15:20):
Think of it almost like casinos, where they weren't expecting
it.
It wasn't an incentive based,but they would get a random gift
card because, hey, you know,you participated and and you've
won this X, y and Z gift card tocontinue forward.
So it was almost like that sortof pull the slot machine lever
(15:41):
and eventually something's goingto come out.
That seemed to actually have ahigher impact when it was
incentivized Exactly what yousaid it was.
Well, now this is part of myjob.
I'm incentivized to just do myjob and it just became something
of like okay, well, I can earnmore money, but they weren't
really there for the learning.
Whereas the others were engagedin the learning and that random
(16:04):
reward came back.
That was sort of thedopaminergic you know.
So, thank you, jay, know so,yeah, well, thank you Jay.
Dr. Craig Mattson (16:13):
That's super helpful.
I'll take that back to my groupand suggest that we use, you
know, more of a slot machineapproach to this and see what
comes out of it.
Jay Johnson (16:22):
Hey, learning gambling is, you know, probably
a positive reinforcer.
So well you know, craig, I'dlove to dig in a little deeper
too and start thinking what hasthis research taught you in
terms of some of these differentaspects?
You know, obviously we'vestarted to dig into some of that
(16:43):
motivation piece, but what aresome of the insights that you'd
be able to share from havingthese conversations that would
really benefit those HR people,those trainers, those coaches
out there that are looking toelevate their talent development
options.
Dr. Craig Mattson (16:57):
So I think you often learn what you should
have written in your book afterit's published, and that's
certainly been the case for me.
Something I wish I'd said justlike right up front like this is
the thing people here's why youshould buy this book.
Just like right up front, likethis is the thing people here's
why you should buy this book.
The book is called DigitalOverwhelm a mid-career guide for
coping at work, and what Iwished I'd said and I kind of
(17:24):
say it, but you know you don'tlike emphasize it enough ever it
seems to me is that a lot ofguidance that we're offered
today in regards to digitaloverwhelm tends to be get rid of
tech, get rid of tools,simplify, go analog and
basically digital minimalism,and I have a lot of respect for
(17:45):
this position.
It's put out by people like CalNewport and others like that.
I think it's good stuff.
Like simply asking ourselveswhat tools do I need for the
goals I have is wise, like gofor it.
But you know, many people don'thave a choice about the
platforms or the number ofplatforms that they're asked to
use at work.
They might be required to usedevices, maybe in excess of what
(18:10):
they actually want to use touse devices may be in excess of
what they actually want to use.
So my book really recommends,instead of digital minimalism,
it recommends digitalflexibility.
I noticed that as people weredealing with digital overwhelm,
they tended to use six differentcoping mechanisms, and because
I'm a communication scholar, Itended to see these through a
(18:31):
communicational lens and so Idescribed them as modes of
communication.
A really quick example of thiswould be when you're feeling
digitally overwhelmed say you'redoing a team project, some
people have an impulse to dealwith that overwhelm by sending
stuff.
So they like create a massive1900 word email and they send it
(18:53):
out to the team.
That'll fix everything and theyfeel a lot better.
But the team doesn't alwaysnecessarily feel better Right.
Other people, when they're facedwith digital overwhelm, may use
a mode of conversation.
So let's talk, let's gettogether in person or let's get
on a Zoom call, like you and Iare doing right now, jay.
Let's figure this out, just youand me.
(19:14):
That's also like it's got a lotgoing for it, but it doesn't
always work super well in a kindof collective or organizational
fashion.
Still, other people use a modethat I'll just call signaling,
kind of a less is more approach.
They will say likeorganizational communication is
kind of exhausting to me.
(19:34):
Right now I'm just going tosend very brief communications,
or maybe no communications atall.
It's kind of like the cameraoff approach to being in a Zoom
room.
So those are a few of the modesand I think being able to shift
among the modes they all havestrengths, they all have things
they're really good for, butrecognizing what's the gift and
(19:56):
then maybe also what's theburden of each of the modes is
something I felt like I learnedfrom talking to these 47 rising
professionals.
Jay Johnson (20:06):
Okay, Now that's interesting.
So let me back up for just amoment and maybe we can get
clear on what would it mean forme to feel sort of like
digitally exhausted, Like how dowe define that?
How do we know if we've maybefallen into that?
It's almost like digitalburnout to an extent.
(20:26):
Yeah, how would I know whatwould be my symptoms, what would
be the things?
Because I think a lot of a lotof the look, a lot of the
trainers, a lot of the coacheshere are using digital platforms
, whether it's Teams, the factthat I've had to learn Teams,
WebEx, Google Meets, Zoom and anumber of other platforms for
(20:48):
any of the keynotes and thingsI've done.
I'm exhausted just trying tomanage some of that knowledge,
let alone the tools that I woulduse every day.
So I'm thinking about it likewhat would be the markers to say
, hey, watch out, If youexperience this, you might be
seeing your teams, your people,your audience experiencing a
(21:08):
little of that sort of likedigital exhaustion.
What does that seem like?
Dr. Craig Mattson (21:13):
Well, let me try to offer my definition of
digital overwhelm and then I'lltalk about a few markers that
I've seen.
So I use Lake Michigan to thinkabout digital overwhelm.
So in a lake, like a really biglake, you have surface currents
and some of these can be quitedangerous riptides.
Some of them are just longshore currents that you can ride
(21:34):
your kayak with.
But in any case, those surfacecurrents for me are like
technological developments, likeyou said, all those platforms
that show up like suddenly youhave to be conversant in six
different video chat platforms.
People keep showing up withmore of these things and you're
like, okay, I guess, like thisperson is using that.
So I got to learn it and itkind of sometimes takes you in a
place you don't necessarilywant to go, but you got to go
(21:56):
there because it's strong and AIright now is is a riptide for
all of us.
It's carrying us along and wejust kind of got to swim with it
, keep our head above water asmuch as we can and figure out
how to ride this thing out.
But we also have in a lake youalso have upwelling currents,
and these I think of as like ouremotional responses to the tech
(22:20):
development and the accelerateddigital innovations that are
constantly showing up, and somepeople respond in ways that are
they're just enthusiastic aboutit.
They love tech development, theylove new tools, they love the
innovation and what this isgoing to enable me to do is so
cool.
(22:40):
Other people do feel kind ofmeh about it, like, oh great,
another tool, another platform,another set of passwords I got
to remember.
And then some people, you know,they get sad, like they get
tired, exhausted, burned out,and I think that's where maybe
your question is sort of takingus.
What are the indicators of that?
(23:03):
I would say that the indicatorsare very similar to
conventional burnout.
So, a, you have a sense ofexhaustion.
That's the most common.
I don't want to look at ascreen again for the rest of my
life.
Jay Johnson (23:19):
B you've been there before.
Dr. Craig Mattson (23:23):
Yeah, you've got a lot of episodes of the
Talent Forge out there, soyou've done your share of screen
time for sure.
But another indicator might besomething like I just don't feel
up for this.
Like I don't feel like I havethe talent or the skill that I
need to do this.
I feel inept or evenincompetent.
And sometimes boomers feel thatin these or Xers like me, they
(23:47):
feel that in these new digitalspaces, like I don't know if I
can keep up and I don't know ifI want to.
And then sometimes there's akind of cynicism that sets in,
where people are just like theyget nasty with each other.
We see a lot of this online andI think a great deal of that.
I mean, it's really repulsivewhen somebody hates on somebody
else online, but I think it'sprobably traceable to some kind
(24:09):
of digital exhaustion at somelevel.
So those are a few.
Jay Johnson (24:16):
Yeah, and I like that because you know, and even
to what you said about traceablebeing, you know some of that
cynicism being traceable toexhaustion.
I think that that's one of thethings that we see is, when
people are face to face, theytend to not have that same type
of vitriol and there's adifferent level of connection.
And I'm thinking about it interms of you know when I think
(24:40):
about, when I think aboutdigital training, digital
coaching, and you know whetheror not you know somebody is
comfortable being on the screen,or if this is their 37th
meeting in a day on a little boxwhere they're not seeing feet
or anything else.
Really, how much are they goingto learn, how much are they
going to actually be engaged oranything else?
(25:00):
They may experience thatoverwhelm because they've spent
their entire day looking at ascreen size that you know
roughly, put your fingerstogether and that's about it,
amongst a box of human beingsall being portrayed on TV.
So, when we think about thisdigital overwhelm and we
recognize that there's somedifferent modes of communication
(25:23):
that are coming out, or youknow, different patterns of
communication that we may seebecause of it, what can we take
away, as you know, sort of thoseHR, those trainers, those
coaches what can we take awayfrom this and how can we maybe
shift some of the things thatwe're doing to help our
audiences, to help our teams,make sure that they're
(25:43):
addressing this or evenovercoming it, or at least that
we're not adding to the digitaloverwhelm?
Dr. Craig Mattson (25:52):
A couple of ideas come to mind.
Every other chapter in my bookis called a mode switch workshop
.
So it's like a half chapter ofattempting to work through some
of these kind of tacticalapproaches that help you to, you
know, cope with digitalcommunication and its weird
pressures.
But I think for HRprofessionals, for people doing
(26:13):
training and development inorganizations, one thing is to
practice compassion for thepeople who are in these spaces.
They're constantly weird, likeright now, as I talk to you, I'm
not looking in your eyes.
In order to appear like I'mlooking in your eyes, I have to
look at my little green dot onmy webcam, right, and that's
just a strange kind ofalienating.
(26:35):
I get used to it, right, butit's sort of alienating to be
communicating with another humanin that sort of detached way.
That's only one example.
There are lots of examples ofways that it's a little bit, it
could be depersonalizing.
So just showing compassiontowards people and recognizing
that it's a lot, I think thatwill get HR folks a long ways.
(26:57):
I'll stop there for a moment.
What's that making you think of?
Jay Johnson (27:06):
You know when I think of it.
Well, and it's even funnybecause, as you were talking
about, like, the advent ofdifferent platforms or different
aspects, I started to thinkabout all the platforms that
I've just been like, okay, I'mnot going to be an early adopter
.
I used to be an early adopteron most things and I'm like I'm
not going to be an early adopterbecause I don't know if this is
going to be around.
And one of the tech pieces thatI found that I actually really
like is it is a dropdown camerathat actually situates right
(27:31):
where the person's face is andit's just this little dot.
So looking at the camera isactually right on your face and
you can move your screen aroundand everything else, because I
want I am a body language personLike that was one of my first
trainings, craig is nonverbalcommunication.
So the tone that being able tohear the different tonal
inflections, being able to seefacial expressions, eyes light
(27:53):
up, the way people move forwardor backwards that was really,
really important for me when wegot into this digital space.
So the very fact that, yeah,you know, and there's, there's a
lot of great there's.
Unfortunately, I am on a lot ofthe different platforms for
business purposes, but you know,there's a great Instagram reel
of people like, as they'relooking at themselves as opposed
(28:15):
to looking at their person thatthey're communicating with, or
they're looking at a screenthat's their email and it's not.
You know all of those differentjokes.
But yeah, I mean it reallylands with me to think about.
All right, let's becompassionate about what is this
person doing?
How is this?
How are their eyes doing?
Are they?
Are they losing ocular visionfrom, you know, staring at
(28:37):
screens or whatever else?
Having some of that compassionis important at screens or
whatever else.
Dr. Craig Mattson (28:43):
Having some of that compassion is important.
I think, too, to haveorganizationally, to have some
meta talk about the tools we'reusing is really helpful.
So my book is kind of likedoing meta talk.
It's like about the talk, sothinking about the tools we're
using in a meeting and askingthe people who are participating
at how is this, what is thisenabling you to do, what does it
keep you from doing, what is itdisabling you from doing?
(29:07):
And just that kind of.
I think people need medialiteracy today just to become
more conversant and not justtreat tools like a means of
transferring messages, like atin can with a thread between
and then another tin can.
There's a lot of stuff to thinkthrough and so I think, as
teams, doing that collectivelyis good.
(29:28):
And then I also think it'simportant to agree on some norms
.
You know that might pertain towhat you do with your camera.
It might pertain to what you'redoing with other devices, to
what you do with your camera.
It might pertain to what you'redoing with other devices.
(29:49):
Or is it okay, for instance, toin a meeting, a remote meeting,
say to say, am I needed rightnow?
And Jurian Kammer he wrote abook called Unblocked and he
talks about just kind of beingtransparent and accountable with
the people running the meeting.
Like, am I needed right now?
If I'm not needed right now, Imight go and shift over to this
task.
I'll be easily accessible but Ido need to respond to this
(30:10):
email right now.
So I think that kind ofnorm-setting expectation,
accountability, transparencyabout what we're doing, so
people aren't capturing us likegoing cross-eyed because we're
looking at so many differentplatforms at the same time.
Jay Johnson (30:25):
Or completely tuning out, you know, to your
point, is what's the value ofkeeping somebody in a meeting?
That's maybe the meeting's notrelevant, maybe it's not.
This is actually something thatI've spent a lot of energy and
time on is like how can wecreate the conditions of
effective meetings?
And what I'm hearing you say ifI might be able to infer this
that's even more important tohave conversations about that.
(30:48):
I think so In the digital space.
So I love that you said havingconversations about the
conversations, and I reallyliked that takeaway about like,
hey, what is working for you,what's not working for you?
Where is this accelerating you?
Where is this disabling you?
You know, in those types ofconversations, what should we be
(31:08):
listening for?
Dr. Craig Mattson (31:12):
Oh, I like that question.
I think emotional attention isreally important when we're
asking those questions.
So you know an HR manager or atalent developer in an
organization or just a mid-levelmanager working with her team.
(31:35):
I think you want to payattention to the feelings, even
the feelings in the Zoom room.
We can usually feel thefeelings when we're in a
physical space pretty well ifwe're a little astute, but it
takes more work to attend tofeelings in digital spaces.
I remember at the beginning ofCOVID when I and my colleagues
(31:56):
would be like doing classesonline, maybe for more or less
the first time in ourprofessional experience.
I remember hearing peopleoffices away from me, how loudly
they spoke and it struck methat, wow, it takes a lot of
energy to be in a digital space.
It takes like an extra 37% orsomething of energy to be in
(32:21):
that space and that energybrings with it a lot of feelings
and so like trying to decodethose feelings, attend to them.
That's probably what I would bepaying attention to the most in
these conversations about like,about the conversations, like
you said.
Jay Johnson (32:37):
And I think it's such a great takeaway too,
because we sometimes forget tostop and pause and ask we get to
the tactical, we get to thepractical, we get to the
strategic, and we do tend to shyaway from the things of like
okay, but how does this make youfeel?
What are you, what is yourenergy level at the end of this
meeting, versus you know what isthe energy level before there?
(32:59):
And I think that there's somereally great applications of
thinking about how we design ourZoom trainings, how we design,
or you know, our onlinetrainings, or even some of our
LMS, where it's one way, orsynchronous or asynchronous, etc
.
Like in that design aspect, itcan be really important to be
thinking about what's theemotional content that the
(33:21):
participant is going to beexperiencing at each different
intersection of a training or ofa meeting or of whatever the
digital interaction is.
So I think that's reallypowerful.
Craig, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, first of
all, can you share the name ofthe book?
Where is it available?
How could they get access tothat?
(33:41):
And then also, if they wantedto get in touch with you, how
might they be able to do so?
Dr. Craig Mattson (33:46):
Yes, the book is called Digital Overwhelm and
my name again is Craig Mattson,so if you search for that on
any online bookstore, you'llfind it there.
I'm from Grand Rapids, so I'llplug Schuller Books, as they
have a nice online portal andyou could connect with it there.
And then there's this littlecompany, amazon.
They're doing pretty well thesedays and they can also probably
(34:07):
find it in their stacks.
If people want to connect withme, I'd be so pleased to do so
at themodeswitchcom.
So that's three words allscrunched together
themodeswitchcom, and there's aplace to connect with me by
email there or to find the yeah,the sort of writing that I do.
I do a bi-weekly newsletterabout work culture and I'd love
(34:30):
to have your listeners checkthat out.
Jay Johnson (34:33):
Awesome.
Yeah, Thank you, Craig, forsharing that and thank you for
the research on this.
You know, it's really importantthat we have sort of that
informed understanding of wherepeople are at and it.
You obviously did the legworkand put the energy and attention
into that space to really kindof create something that's
meaningful and valuable in ourworking time.
(34:54):
So I want to say thank you forthat and thank you for being on
the show.
Dr. Craig Mattson (34:57):
And I'll say keep doing good work, Jay.
This is a great podcast spacefor people in talent development
.
Jay Johnson (35:04):
Well, thank you, craig, and thank you, audience,
for tuning into this episode ofthe Talent Forge, where,
together, we are shaping thefuture of training and
development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Dr Craig Mattson.
Welcome to the show, craig.
Dr. Craig Mattson (00:13):
Grateful to be here.
I love the whole image of atalent forge.
That's a cool metaphor.
I like to think of what's beingforged in this particular
moment.
Jay Johnson (00:24):
The most important resource of any organization the
people Right.
So let's get into this and I'dlove to audience to get to know
you a little bit.
How did you get into teaching?
Obviously a university position.
What's your experience andbackground, craig?
Dr. Craig Mattson (00:41):
Like most Americans.
If you ask me who I am, I'llprobably tell you my job, what I
do.
I'm a professor of mediaproduction, communication
related to marketing and othersimilar fields at Calvin
University in Grand Rapids,michigan.
But that's not who I am really.
I'm formed by many communitiesof people through my life who
(01:06):
have animated my work, inspiredmy work and shaped it.
I grew up in a family ofeducators, and so teaching and
you might say, talentdevelopment and mentoring has
always been a part of thehouseholds I've been in, and
that makes me eager to be inthis conversation with you, jay
holds I've been in and thatmakes me eager to be in this
(01:27):
conversation with you, Jay.
Jay Johnson (01:31):
I love that.
Craig, so we are neighbors,being in Battle Creek, about an
hour away from you.
And Calvin, what a greatuniversity.
So we also share a little bitof that interest in the
communication.
So my degrees were actually incommunication, public relations
and a number of other things.
How has your practice, studyand sort of background in that
space really helped you tobecome a mentor, or what has
(01:52):
that done for your engagement inbeing able to teach and train
other people?
Dr. Craig Mattson (01:59):
I think the most formative experience of the
last few years has been someresearch I've done, interviewing
dozens of Gen Z and millennialprofessionals and asking them in
the early 2020s, how are youdealing Like, how are you coping
with the intensities andpressures of the workplace?
I think when I was asking thosequestions I was assuming like
(02:21):
it was a brief temporary periodof intensity.
It hasn't really lightened up,so the workplace continues to be
really fraught for many, manyprofessionals today.
But talking with these folksfrom all over the country and
lots of different guilds andindustries, that has really
(02:41):
inspired me to think morecarefully about my own mentoring
work.
In a way, I feel mentored by myresearch participants, some of
whom were students from 20 yearsago.
But, yeah, what does mentoring,what does leadership, what does
talent development look like inworkplaces that are hybrid,
that are remote, that are oftenconducted in spaces like the one
(03:04):
you and I are in right now?
Yeah, so those are questionsthat really inspire me and I
think my research participantshave been my teacher in many
ways.
Jay Johnson (03:14):
I love that.
So I'm going to dig into thatresearch in a moment.
But how did it feel to behaving some of these
conversations with younger theyoung generations that are, you
know, just emerging into theworkspace?
What was that like for you?
Dr. Craig Mattson (03:30):
Well, there were many conversations that
were inspiring full stop.
I was like, wow, you havefigured out workarounds in some
crazy work situations, some verydifficult organizational
settings.
You figured it out, go you.
And so some of it was justinspiring, but some of it was
also disconcerting.
(03:51):
So I remember an interview whichI happened to be able to hold
in a coffee shop with a personwho worked in marketing in the
Chicagoland area, and I rememberher telling me over a cup of
coffee that, yeah, I don't thinkmy work has any meaning.
And I was like, whoa, what areyou talking about?
(04:12):
Like, work is like, that's whatwe do, and you know, as a
millennial, she had somequestions about that.
Institutions hadn't served heras well after the great
recession of 08 as they hadserved me before 08.
And so I think that wasdisconcerting.
That was surprising to me andsomething I had to like figure
(04:35):
out how to factor that into theways I would talk about
organizational development.
And some of the stories werejust sad, like they.
They they made me feel heavy.
Sometimes people are facingpressures and intensities in the
workplace that they shouldn'thave to it.
It should be better, we shouldbe doing better than we are, and
(04:57):
so some of the stories werewere um sobering to me as well
sobering to me as well, I canimagine.
Jay Johnson (05:07):
Can you give me an example of maybe one of the
stories that landed you?
Dr. Craig Mattson (05:09):
know in any of those categories for you so
inspiring?
I'll start there because that'sencouraging.
I'm thinking about a person whowas working in health care in
COVID, which, as you can imagine, was a particularly intense
time.
She was working in intake in, Ithink, an emergency room, so
(05:30):
it's got to be one of the mostdifficult spots on the planet at
that moment, and she talkedabout ways that she tried to
show compassion towards thepeople who were coming in.
That was hard and it took a lotof moral effort on her part.
She also had to deal with someof the limits of the physicians
(05:50):
that she was working under, soshe was kind of mediating.
She was working betweenphysicians who were stressed out
and patients who were scared orangry.
And that story of like showingcompassion, I you know I can
imagine her like looking atsomebody's cracked phone screen
like is my baby?
And she just takes a moment tolike talk with that person.
(06:11):
You know, somehow she figuredthat out and I found that really
inspiring.
I heard those stories repeatedlyabout people who, yeah, were in
situations where they wonderlike what's the point of this,
like what's the meaning in this?
But the last category was thosestories that sobered me and I
(06:33):
think some of those were stories.
This is going to sound like I'msort of ratcheting this up to
11 really fast, but like sexualharassment stories, people who
are dealing with unethicalbosses or supervisors and, yeah,
the situations that they asyoung professionals I mean there
(06:53):
were terrible situations forany age group of women,
professionals in particular I'mthinking of but yeah, especially
for someone you know, just sortof out of college facing this
kind of inequity and aggressionand disrespect, so that that was
certainly in that last categoryof like whoa this is.
This is hard, hard stuff peopleare dealing with.
Jay Johnson (07:16):
Yeah, and I definitely want to get to having
some conversations about howthat research might inform us as
HR people, as trainers andcoaches.
I want to go back to theinspirational story, because
I've done a lot of work in thathealthcare space and actually
was asked to develop abehavioral science focused
(07:37):
approach to managing burnout andsituations and it's interesting
to me that that communication,that compassion, that sort of
came through, because a lot ofpeople look at that and say,
okay, maybe it's compassionfatigue, but that's actually not
what the science teaches us.
Can you share with us a littlebit more about how did she or he
(08:00):
maybe demonstrate in that space, right, how did they
demonstrate that resilience tokind of keep coming back to the
wheel?
Did you have any conversationsthat revolved around that?
Dr. Craig Mattson (08:11):
Well, what I could glean from, you know,
talking with professionals likethis, this woman professional in
a ED during COVID.
It's not complicated stuff.
It's, in a way, what a friendof mine calls kindergarten
ethics.
It's being responsive toanother human being.
(08:31):
It involves listening, itinvolves speaking carefully and
slowly and without losing yourcontrol in situations that maybe
push you to lose your control.
So it wasn't anything supersophisticated, it's just that it
was being practicedconsistently, at least by these
reports.
(08:51):
It was being practicedconsistently in situations that,
wow, it would have been hard todo even that sort of basic
moral work of listening topeople, speaking kindly to
people, trying to see what theiractual need is.
But I did encounter people whoare experiencing burnout.
I remember a researchparticipant who I had known for
(09:12):
a long time and I kind ofcircled back and said, hey, I'm
doing this study, would you bewilling to talk with me?
This guy worked in healthinsurance and he began, you know
, I had always thought of him asthis sort of charismatic, you
know, really quick-witted,genuinely funny and talented guy
, and when he, you know, when wegot into this interview, he had
(09:35):
a hat on with a large bill andhe kind of kept that bill,
sometimes between his gaze andmine, like I couldn't figure it.
I couldn't read it, I couldn'tfigure out what was going on
there, but he was experiencingburnout, he was exhausted.
And he was exhausted as amid-level manager, top down and
bottom up, which is a reallyhard space to be in.
(09:57):
His administrators, he said,were regularly gaslighting and
he said the gaslighting isrampant at his company.
And then, yeah, as the team hewas leading, he was feeling
burned out on theirincomprehension of what he was
saying.
He was like why do I have torepeat this so often?
What's going on?
(10:18):
So that's one instance ofburnout that I remember pretty
clearly and it had markedphysical, you know, signs um in
in this guy's demeanor.
Jay Johnson (10:30):
Well, and it's interesting that you bring that
up, um, actually one of thecoaches that I work with, she
does a lot of work in burnout,her name's Francesca Amante, and
one of the things that she hasrelated is how burnout can often
feel like a concept of betrayalwhen somebody feels, betrayed.
You know, when we feel that sortof aspect of betrayal and I'm
(10:53):
thinking about the inspirationalstory as it compares to this
example here where maybe thatperson in the inspirational
story feels like they wereworking towards that higher
purpose helping other peoplethey knew the why, which means
that they were able to make thewhat and the how actually
function, Whereas, you know,this individual might have felt
(11:13):
that sense of betrayal from upor that sense of betrayal from
down, which then all of a suddencreates the conditions that our
emotions.
You know, we start to protectourselves, we start to turn
inward rather than outward, andturning outward, as it happens,
is one of the powerful antidotesthat we have for burnout.
It's getting away from internal.
(11:35):
So I just found it reallyinteresting, as you were talking
through that and you know andthinking about it, because the
other thing that I think aboutis you know whether you're in
the middle of covid or whetheryou're in the middle of some
kind of a health crisis.
There's still things that a lotof our organizations or HR
people have to think about, likecontinuing education units,
which I know are rampant inhealthcare and even in health
(11:57):
insurance or real estate or CPAsor whatever else, and I was
thinking about that aspect oflike.
Okay, when we know this andfrom your research, when we know
what these experiences exist,how can we motivate somebody to
say, yeah, I want to learn more,I want to dig in, I want to be
better tomorrow?
In this space where I'm feelingmiserable or I'm feeling
(12:19):
betrayed or I'm feeling whatever, can you speak to that at all?
Dr. Craig Mattson (12:22):
Craig, it's interesting.
As I said, I teach at CalvinUniversity and we were just
talking yesterday a small cohortof us of trying to develop some
better continuing education forprofessors who need to teach
adult learners, which might be adifferent demographic than what
they've mostly taught with whatwe call undergraduate learners.
(12:44):
They are also our adults, to beclear.
But yeah so, and motivation wasthe thing that came up, like we
can design these beautiful, youknow modules.
We can design asynchronousclasses, we can design materials
that are like well-produced andreally contain practical, uh,
strategies, but at the same time, like people are doing a lot,
(13:06):
people are, they have more to dothan they know what to do with,
and so to say, hey, here's thisamazing resource that will take
seven weeks.
That sounds daunting.
And so, yeah, I think, frankly,one of the means that came up
to motivate people.
We were just talking aboutmoney, like how does offering a
stipend support people in anorganization?
(13:28):
And somebody in the cohort andthe table brought up the point
that sometimes stipends justsort of disappear into your
paycheck and you don't feel likeyou got any fun money out of it
.
It's just like somehow onworkday somewhere.
So he was like, could we giveout a specific kind of gift card
.
You know that might be like oh,I get to do this.
You know it might be even lessmoney, but so I think sometimes
(13:51):
extrinsic motivators areimportant.
But, frankly, when peopleexperience something like
exhaustion or their own sense ofhow do I handle this, their own
sense of I don't feel competentfor what is in front of me,
(14:12):
that provides some intrinsicmotivation, and so I think some
kind of mixture of the two isprobably where we need to go.
There are always people whowant to grow, so you can like
find those folks, but then thereare people who are like no, I'm
good, I'm where I am and that'sall I got.
You know life for right now.
But, and for those people youmight need to do the more
(14:32):
extrinsic kind of motivation.
How's that sound to you, jay?
Like, how does that resonatewith your study and research?
Jay Johnson (14:38):
Yeah, it's actually really interesting.
We did a test at anorganization where we did a B
testing.
One of the things that we hadwas an incentive based program
where it was essentially theycould earn gift cards or they
could earn some kind offinancial value for every course
that they took or foreverything that they went into
the LMS or for every hour.
(14:58):
So we had to split up like that, where it was like, okay, we're
tracking the number of hours,but what we actually found to be
more effective and I can sharemore about this with you, this
is one of the big areas that I'mfocused on is learner
motivation.
What we actually found wasrandom dispersal of rewards.
(15:20):
Think of it almost like casinos, where they weren't expecting
it.
It wasn't an incentive based,but they would get a random gift
card because, hey, you know,you participated and and you've
won this X, y and Z gift card tocontinue forward.
So it was almost like that sortof pull the slot machine lever
(15:41):
and eventually something's goingto come out.
That seemed to actually have ahigher impact when it was
incentivized Exactly what yousaid it was.
Well, now this is part of myjob.
I'm incentivized to just do myjob and it just became something
of like okay, well, I can earnmore money, but they weren't
really there for the learning.
Whereas the others were engagedin the learning and that random
(16:04):
reward came back.
That was sort of thedopaminergic you know.
So, thank you, jay, know so,yeah, well, thank you Jay.
Dr. Craig Mattson (16:13):
That's super helpful.
I'll take that back to my groupand suggest that we use, you
know, more of a slot machineapproach to this and see what
comes out of it.
Jay Johnson (16:22):
Hey, learning gambling is, you know, probably
a positive reinforcer.
So well you know, craig, I'dlove to dig in a little deeper
too and start thinking what hasthis research taught you in
terms of some of these differentaspects?
You know, obviously we'vestarted to dig into some of that
(16:43):
motivation piece, but what aresome of the insights that you'd
be able to share from havingthese conversations that would
really benefit those HR people,those trainers, those coaches
out there that are looking toelevate their talent development
options.
Dr. Craig Mattson (16:57):
So I think you often learn what you should
have written in your book afterit's published, and that's
certainly been the case for me.
Something I wish I'd said justlike right up front like this is
the thing people here's why youshould buy this book.
Just like right up front, likethis is the thing people here's
why you should buy this book.
The book is called DigitalOverwhelm a mid-career guide for
coping at work, and what Iwished I'd said and I kind of
(17:24):
say it, but you know you don'tlike emphasize it enough ever it
seems to me is that a lot ofguidance that we're offered
today in regards to digitaloverwhelm tends to be get rid of
tech, get rid of tools,simplify, go analog and
basically digital minimalism,and I have a lot of respect for
(17:45):
this position.
It's put out by people like CalNewport and others like that.
I think it's good stuff.
Like simply asking ourselveswhat tools do I need for the
goals I have is wise, like gofor it.
But you know, many people don'thave a choice about the
platforms or the number ofplatforms that they're asked to
use at work.
They might be required to usedevices, maybe in excess of what
(18:10):
they actually want to use touse devices may be in excess of
what they actually want to use.
So my book really recommends,instead of digital minimalism,
it recommends digitalflexibility.
I noticed that as people weredealing with digital overwhelm,
they tended to use six differentcoping mechanisms, and because
I'm a communication scholar, Itended to see these through a
(18:31):
communicational lens and so Idescribed them as modes of
communication.
A really quick example of thiswould be when you're feeling
digitally overwhelmed say you'redoing a team project, some
people have an impulse to dealwith that overwhelm by sending
stuff.
So they like create a massive1900 word email and they send it
(18:53):
out to the team.
That'll fix everything and theyfeel a lot better.
But the team doesn't alwaysnecessarily feel better Right.
Other people, when they're facedwith digital overwhelm, may use
a mode of conversation.
So let's talk, let's gettogether in person or let's get
on a Zoom call, like you and Iare doing right now, jay.
Let's figure this out, just youand me.
(19:14):
That's also like it's got a lotgoing for it, but it doesn't
always work super well in a kindof collective or organizational
fashion.
Still, other people use a modethat I'll just call signaling,
kind of a less is more approach.
They will say likeorganizational communication is
kind of exhausting to me.
(19:34):
Right now I'm just going tosend very brief communications,
or maybe no communications atall.
It's kind of like the cameraoff approach to being in a Zoom
room.
So those are a few of the modesand I think being able to shift
among the modes they all havestrengths, they all have things
they're really good for, butrecognizing what's the gift and
(19:56):
then maybe also what's theburden of each of the modes is
something I felt like I learnedfrom talking to these 47 rising
professionals.
Jay Johnson (20:06):
Okay, Now that's interesting.
So let me back up for just amoment and maybe we can get
clear on what would it mean forme to feel sort of like
digitally exhausted, Like how dowe define that?
How do we know if we've maybefallen into that?
It's almost like digitalburnout to an extent.
(20:26):
Yeah, how would I know whatwould be my symptoms, what would
be the things?
Because I think a lot of a lotof the look, a lot of the
trainers, a lot of the coacheshere are using digital platforms
, whether it's Teams, the factthat I've had to learn Teams,
WebEx, Google Meets, Zoom and anumber of other platforms for
(20:48):
any of the keynotes and thingsI've done.
I'm exhausted just trying tomanage some of that knowledge,
let alone the tools that I woulduse every day.
So I'm thinking about it likewhat would be the markers to say
, hey, watch out, If youexperience this, you might be
seeing your teams, your people,your audience experiencing a
(21:08):
little of that sort of likedigital exhaustion.
What does that seem like?
Dr. Craig Mattson (21:13):
Well, let me try to offer my definition of
digital overwhelm and then I'lltalk about a few markers that
I've seen.
So I use Lake Michigan to thinkabout digital overwhelm.
So in a lake, like a really biglake, you have surface currents
and some of these can be quitedangerous riptides.
Some of them are just longshore currents that you can ride
(21:34):
your kayak with.
But in any case, those surfacecurrents for me are like
technological developments, likeyou said, all those platforms
that show up like suddenly youhave to be conversant in six
different video chat platforms.
People keep showing up withmore of these things and you're
like, okay, I guess, like thisperson is using that.
So I got to learn it and itkind of sometimes takes you in a
place you don't necessarilywant to go, but you got to go
(21:56):
there because it's strong and AIright now is is a riptide for
all of us.
It's carrying us along and wejust kind of got to swim with it
, keep our head above water asmuch as we can and figure out
how to ride this thing out.
But we also have in a lake youalso have upwelling currents,
and these I think of as like ouremotional responses to the tech
(22:20):
development and the accelerateddigital innovations that are
constantly showing up, and somepeople respond in ways that are
they're just enthusiastic aboutit.
They love tech development, theylove new tools, they love the
innovation and what this isgoing to enable me to do is so
cool.
(22:40):
Other people do feel kind ofmeh about it, like, oh great,
another tool, another platform,another set of passwords I got
to remember.
And then some people, you know,they get sad, like they get
tired, exhausted, burned out,and I think that's where maybe
your question is sort of takingus.
What are the indicators of that?
(23:03):
I would say that the indicatorsare very similar to
conventional burnout.
So, a, you have a sense ofexhaustion.
That's the most common.
I don't want to look at ascreen again for the rest of my
life.
Jay Johnson (23:19):
B you've been there before.
Dr. Craig Mattson (23:23):
Yeah, you've got a lot of episodes of the
Talent Forge out there, soyou've done your share of screen
time for sure.
But another indicator might besomething like I just don't feel
up for this.
Like I don't feel like I havethe talent or the skill that I
need to do this.
I feel inept or evenincompetent.
And sometimes boomers feel thatin these or Xers like me, they
(23:47):
feel that in these new digitalspaces, like I don't know if I
can keep up and I don't know ifI want to.
And then sometimes there's akind of cynicism that sets in,
where people are just like theyget nasty with each other.
We see a lot of this online andI think a great deal of that.
I mean, it's really repulsivewhen somebody hates on somebody
else online, but I think it'sprobably traceable to some kind
(24:09):
of digital exhaustion at somelevel.
So those are a few.
Jay Johnson (24:16):
Yeah, and I like that because you know, and even
to what you said about traceablebeing, you know some of that
cynicism being traceable toexhaustion.
I think that that's one of thethings that we see is, when
people are face to face, theytend to not have that same type
of vitriol and there's adifferent level of connection.
And I'm thinking about it interms of you know when I think
(24:40):
about, when I think aboutdigital training, digital
coaching, and you know whetheror not you know somebody is
comfortable being on the screen,or if this is their 37th
meeting in a day on a little boxwhere they're not seeing feet
or anything else.
Really, how much are they goingto learn, how much are they
going to actually be engaged oranything else?
(25:00):
They may experience thatoverwhelm because they've spent
their entire day looking at ascreen size that you know
roughly, put your fingerstogether and that's about it,
amongst a box of human beingsall being portrayed on TV.
So, when we think about thisdigital overwhelm and we
recognize that there's somedifferent modes of communication
(25:23):
that are coming out, or youknow, different patterns of
communication that we may seebecause of it, what can we take
away, as you know, sort of thoseHR, those trainers, those
coaches what can we take awayfrom this and how can we maybe
shift some of the things thatwe're doing to help our
audiences, to help our teams,make sure that they're
(25:43):
addressing this or evenovercoming it, or at least that
we're not adding to the digitaloverwhelm?
Dr. Craig Mattson (25:52):
A couple of ideas come to mind.
Every other chapter in my bookis called a mode switch workshop
.
So it's like a half chapter ofattempting to work through some
of these kind of tacticalapproaches that help you to, you
know, cope with digitalcommunication and its weird
pressures.
But I think for HRprofessionals, for people doing
(26:13):
training and development inorganizations, one thing is to
practice compassion for thepeople who are in these spaces.
They're constantly weird, likeright now, as I talk to you, I'm
not looking in your eyes.
In order to appear like I'mlooking in your eyes, I have to
look at my little green dot onmy webcam, right, and that's
just a strange kind ofalienating.
(26:35):
I get used to it, right, butit's sort of alienating to be
communicating with another humanin that sort of detached way.
That's only one example.
There are lots of examples ofways that it's a little bit, it
could be depersonalizing.
So just showing compassiontowards people and recognizing
that it's a lot, I think thatwill get HR folks a long ways.
(26:57):
I'll stop there for a moment.
What's that making you think of?
Jay Johnson (27:06):
You know when I think of it.
Well, and it's even funnybecause, as you were talking
about, like, the advent ofdifferent platforms or different
aspects, I started to thinkabout all the platforms that
I've just been like, okay, I'mnot going to be an early adopter
.
I used to be an early adopteron most things and I'm like I'm
not going to be an early adopterbecause I don't know if this is
going to be around.
And one of the tech pieces thatI found that I actually really
like is it is a dropdown camerathat actually situates right
(27:31):
where the person's face is andit's just this little dot.
So looking at the camera isactually right on your face and
you can move your screen aroundand everything else, because I
want I am a body language personLike that was one of my first
trainings, craig is nonverbalcommunication.
So the tone that being able tohear the different tonal
inflections, being able to seefacial expressions, eyes light
(27:53):
up, the way people move forwardor backwards that was really,
really important for me when wegot into this digital space.
So the very fact that, yeah,you know, and there's, there's a
lot of great there's.
Unfortunately, I am on a lot ofthe different platforms for
business purposes, but you know,there's a great Instagram reel
of people like, as they'relooking at themselves as opposed
(28:15):
to looking at their person thatthey're communicating with, or
they're looking at a screenthat's their email and it's not.
You know all of those differentjokes.
But yeah, I mean it reallylands with me to think about.
All right, let's becompassionate about what is this
person doing?
How is this?
How are their eyes doing?
Are they?
Are they losing ocular visionfrom, you know, staring at
(28:37):
screens or whatever else?
Having some of that compassionis important at screens or
whatever else.
Dr. Craig Mattson (28:43):
Having some of that compassion is important.
I think, too, to haveorganizationally, to have some
meta talk about the tools we'reusing is really helpful.
So my book is kind of likedoing meta talk.
It's like about the talk, sothinking about the tools we're
using in a meeting and askingthe people who are participating
at how is this, what is thisenabling you to do, what does it
keep you from doing, what is itdisabling you from doing?
(29:07):
And just that kind of.
I think people need medialiteracy today just to become
more conversant and not justtreat tools like a means of
transferring messages, like atin can with a thread between
and then another tin can.
There's a lot of stuff to thinkthrough and so I think, as
teams, doing that collectivelyis good.
(29:28):
And then I also think it'simportant to agree on some norms
.
You know that might pertain towhat you do with your camera.
It might pertain to what you'redoing with other devices, to
what you do with your camera.
It might pertain to what you'redoing with other devices.
(29:49):
Or is it okay, for instance, toin a meeting, a remote meeting,
say to say, am I needed rightnow?
And Jurian Kammer he wrote abook called Unblocked and he
talks about just kind of beingtransparent and accountable with
the people running the meeting.
Like, am I needed right now?
If I'm not needed right now, Imight go and shift over to this
task.
I'll be easily accessible but Ido need to respond to this
(30:10):
email right now.
So I think that kind ofnorm-setting expectation,
accountability, transparencyabout what we're doing, so
people aren't capturing us likegoing cross-eyed because we're
looking at so many differentplatforms at the same time.
Jay Johnson (30:25):
Or completely tuning out, you know, to your
point, is what's the value ofkeeping somebody in a meeting?
That's maybe the meeting's notrelevant, maybe it's not.
This is actually something thatI've spent a lot of energy and
time on is like how can wecreate the conditions of
effective meetings?
And what I'm hearing you say ifI might be able to infer this
that's even more important tohave conversations about that.
(30:48):
I think so In the digital space.
So I love that you said havingconversations about the
conversations, and I reallyliked that takeaway about like,
hey, what is working for you,what's not working for you?
Where is this accelerating you?
Where is this disabling you?
You know, in those types ofconversations, what should we be
(31:08):
listening for?
Dr. Craig Mattson (31:12):
Oh, I like that question.
I think emotional attention isreally important when we're
asking those questions.
So you know an HR manager or atalent developer in an
organization or just a mid-levelmanager working with her team.
(31:35):
I think you want to payattention to the feelings, even
the feelings in the Zoom room.
We can usually feel thefeelings when we're in a
physical space pretty well ifwe're a little astute, but it
takes more work to attend tofeelings in digital spaces.
I remember at the beginning ofCOVID when I and my colleagues
(31:56):
would be like doing classesonline, maybe for more or less
the first time in ourprofessional experience.
I remember hearing peopleoffices away from me, how loudly
they spoke and it struck methat, wow, it takes a lot of
energy to be in a digital space.
It takes like an extra 37% orsomething of energy to be in
(32:21):
that space and that energybrings with it a lot of feelings
and so like trying to decodethose feelings, attend to them.
That's probably what I would bepaying attention to the most in
these conversations about like,about the conversations, like
you said.
Jay Johnson (32:37):
And I think it's such a great takeaway too,
because we sometimes forget tostop and pause and ask we get to
the tactical, we get to thepractical, we get to the
strategic, and we do tend to shyaway from the things of like
okay, but how does this make youfeel?
What are you, what is yourenergy level at the end of this
meeting, versus you know what isthe energy level before there?
(32:59):
And I think that there's somereally great applications of
thinking about how we design ourZoom trainings, how we design,
or you know, our onlinetrainings, or even some of our
LMS, where it's one way, orsynchronous or asynchronous, etc
.
Like in that design aspect, itcan be really important to be
thinking about what's theemotional content that the
(33:21):
participant is going to beexperiencing at each different
intersection of a training or ofa meeting or of whatever the
digital interaction is.
So I think that's reallypowerful.
Craig, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, first of
all, can you share the name ofthe book?
Where is it available?
How could they get access tothat?
(33:41):
And then also, if they wantedto get in touch with you, how
might they be able to do so?
Dr. Craig Mattson (33:46):
Yes, the book is called Digital Overwhelm and
my name again is Craig Mattson,so if you search for that on
any online bookstore, you'llfind it there.
I'm from Grand Rapids, so I'llplug Schuller Books, as they
have a nice online portal andyou could connect with it there.
And then there's this littlecompany, amazon.
They're doing pretty well thesedays and they can also probably
(34:07):
find it in their stacks.
If people want to connect withme, I'd be so pleased to do so
at themodeswitchcom.
So that's three words allscrunched together
themodeswitchcom, and there's aplace to connect with me by
email there or to find the yeah,the sort of writing that I do.
I do a bi-weekly newsletterabout work culture and I'd love
(34:30):
to have your listeners checkthat out.
Jay Johnson (34:33):
Awesome.
Yeah, Thank you, Craig, forsharing that and thank you for
the research on this.
You know, it's really importantthat we have sort of that
informed understanding of wherepeople are at and it.
You obviously did the legworkand put the energy and attention
into that space to really kindof create something that's
meaningful and valuable in ourworking time.
(34:54):
So I want to say thank you forthat and thank you for being on
the show.
Dr. Craig Mattson (34:57):
And I'll say keep doing good work, Jay.
This is a great podcast spacefor people in talent development
.
Jay Johnson (35:04):
Well, thank you, craig, and thank you, audience,
for tuning into this episode ofthe Talent Forge, where,
together, we are shaping thefuture of training and
development.
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