July 25, 2025 • 45 mins
What happens when a Broadway performer turns his theatrical training toward helping professionals find their authentic voice? In this captivating conversation with Jay Harris, we explore the powerful intersection of performing arts and professional communication that can transform how you show up in every setting.
Harris shares his journey from Dreamgirls and Wicked to executive coaching, revealing how the skills that made him successful on stage now help professionals overcome their greatest communication challenges. "I had to find my voice, my real voice, not my performance voice or my agreeable voice or my professional voice," Harris explains, highlighting a struggle many professionals face when trying to connect authentically.
For anyone who's ever struggled with presentation nerves, worried about being "too much" or "not enough," or simply wanted to communicate more effectively, this conversation offers both validation and practical techniques.
Connect with Jay Harris: https://www.linkedin.com/in/javarusharris/
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where, together, we are shapingthe future of training and
development.
Today, we have a special guestcoming to us from Atlanta,
georgia, jay Harris.
Welcome, jay, hello, hello,thank you for having me.
All right.
So I learned enough just in ourconnection that I was
definitely going to like you assoon as I saw your name.
(00:23):
We share a name, which isawesome, but we actually share
some similar backgrounds and I'dlove for the audience to get to
know you, jay, tell us how didyou get into training, coaching,
leadership?
I'd love to hear that story.
Jay Harris (00:34):
Yeah, yeah, thank you again for having me and,
again, lots of things in common,including our name.
But I'll tell you this, jay,that I remember working with an
organization that I was a partof before and I just started
kind of entering into theexecutive realm of things, and I
(00:55):
remember having a conversationwith a woman who I'll share her
name here it's Adrienne Massey,and she was over our learning
and development program at thatparticular company at that time
and she and I started having aconversation and I started
sharing a little bit of mybackground and I said, well,
what do you think if I getinvolved with trying to teach or
(01:17):
coach that particular modulethat you have?
And she said, yeah, let's giveit a try.
And I'm telling you, man, Ifell in love with you.
Man, I fell in love with it.
I fell in love with it becauseit's one of those things where
I've learned with coaching,where you're not giving them you
know the exact formula thatthey have to use.
This is the way to do it.
It's really helping people tapinto something that they already
(01:40):
have and something that theyalready possess, and I know how
valuable that's been for me andall the careers that I've been a
part of.
And so when I got a chance tojust see that transformation
happening, you know from myperspective as a coach I never
left and I don't plan on leaving.
Jay Johnson (01:58):
Okay, I love that.
So you know, and that's thething is, once you get a little
taste of the experience ofcoaching or training and really
helping elevate people, I dothink it's like.
Then it's like all right,when's my next?
Jay Harris (02:10):
when's my next coaching bump?
When's my next coaching bump?
Right?
Jay Johnson (02:14):
So let me ask you this question what kind of
pressure were you feeling whenyou had you had jumped in, you
had asked that question um toyour colleague, and they said
yes.
And then, at that point in time, it's like all right, not only
am I getting in front of people,not only am I going to have to,
you know, take this module, butyou're also doing it under the
(02:35):
wing of somebody whom obviouslyyou had some respect for.
So what was that pressure like?
Jay Harris (02:47):
I'll tell you the pressure it was, um, it was a
lot, because I'll say I like toframe it like this I was
experiencing with a lot of ourcoachees experience when they
come to us, you know, to talkabout developing themselves.
So one of the things that I wasfeeling right off, you know the
top, is I want to do a good job, I want to meet this
(03:08):
opportunity in the best way thatI possibly can.
So I definitely felt somepressure to get it right.
I'll be honest with you too.
I also had my own idea of whata facilitator or coach in this
realm should sound like, shouldbe like, and I had to find my
voice, my real voice, not myperformance voice or my
(03:34):
agreeable voice or myprofessional voice.
I had to really lean into beingmyself and finding my own path
and my own way of deliveringworkshops as well as delivering
coaching.
But I felt that pressure ofgetting it right.
So it took some time to get tothat point.
(03:55):
I also felt the pressure ofbeing able coach others in a way
that resonates with them.
You know, I think for a lot ofus, if we're being honest, we,
you know, we're assigned a coachor, let's say, you've been
tasked with doing a corporate,attending a corporate training.
(04:17):
Some people might say, ok, Iknow this is a corporate
training, I got to do this, it'sa mandate.
I'm going to, you know, sitthrough this, get through it,
get my credit and then I'm goingto go away.
And it's because youtraditionally have an
expectation of how it's going tobe and how relevant it will or
will not be for you as anindividual and who you are as a
person.
So for me, there was anotherexpectation of pressure of I
(04:41):
want this to land and I reallywant it to make a difference,
not just you know, not just itbe a.
We got to get through theagenda.
Jay Johnson (04:50):
I think we all feel that at different points in
time.
So thank you, thank you forsharing that.
I want to.
I want to zero in on somethingthat you had mentioned.
It's about finding your sort oflike coaching, training voice.
Here's my experience and I wantto know have you had anything
like this or anything else?
I have a voice, or like myauthentic voice, when I am
(05:14):
delivering on a keynote stage.
I feel like that's prettyconsistent with when I'm
training.
I feel like it's evenmoderately consistent when I'm
coaching, the moment I move intovideo work or writing.
It is like that is not.
It just doesn't.
It doesn't work, it doesn'tflow and I think the first time
(05:36):
I went to video I was like whatthe hell is wrong with me?
I've been speaking for 20 years.
I can't, I can't get a sentenceout.
I can't, it doesn't feel right.
I looked at the video.
I can't, I can't get a sentenceout.
I can't, it doesn't feel right.
I looked at the video.
I'm like who is?
Jay Harris (05:51):
this.
Have you had that experience orwhat do you think about that?
Of course, I think that so manyof us in general have that, but
especially when you're in, youknow this realm of of um, you
know delivering information, andwhen you're put in front of
that video or you turn therecord button on again, I think
we all default to.
I want to get this right, I wantto be credible, I want people
(06:12):
to believe me, I want to appearseasoned and like I know what
I'm doing, and so we kind ofdefault to that thinking of what
does a professional sound like?
Or what does a person who hasbeen speaking for years upon
years, or people that we look upto or we watch on our own
(06:36):
streaming platforms or YouTubeor what have you?
What do they sound like?
And so you kind of get intothat mode.
And so you kind of get intothat mode when you're in person
and I've noticed this for myself, I should say when I'm in
person on stage, I can see theaudience.
I get to kind of tailor what'shappening in my room based off
of whether they're receiving itor not.
(06:57):
And I'll tell you this I amoriginally from Savannah,
georgia.
So the longer the session goes,the more Southern accent kicks
in and the storytelling ramps upand I'm using colloquialisms
that people are falling in lovewith because I'm leaning into
being myself and, even thoughthey may not, it's not an
ongoing conversation theirreactions and the energy in the
(07:19):
room I feel like we're having aconversation and I feel like
we're building that trust as wego.
I feel like we're having aconversation and I feel like
we're building that trust as wego.
When you're on camera, all youhave is to assume how people
will receive you, and so you'reback into that mode of what you
think is presentable, what youthink looks seasoned, and so
I've had that same experience.
(07:39):
But I always tell myself I sayyou know what, I want to show up
as me.
There's plenty of speakers outthere in the world.
There are plenty of people thatdo what we do.
But it's actually when I showup as myself I told you earlier
I can be a little tastefullyunhinged, and all that means is
I can be a little crazy, and Ishow up with that.
(08:00):
And I see some people you knowcomments later.
They're like you know what withthat, and I see some people you
know comments later.
They're like you know what, I'ma little crazy and I get that,
or you being that vulnerableabout being intimidated for the
first time speaking in front ofa group, even though you know
you can do this.
That resonated with me becauseI felt the same way when when I
got up to speak.
So it's something about thatauthenticity that if you lean
(08:21):
into it, you're going to hit ahome run.
Jay Johnson (08:24):
And it's so.
Spot on, jay, because that'sexactly what I was doing was.
I was coming in and all of asudden, because the camera's
there, so it all of a suddenbecame Corporate Jay, which I
don't, I don't know CorporateJay, corporate.
Jay Harris (08:35):
Jay doesn't really exist.
I get it, I get it.
Jay Johnson (08:39):
But I realized and this is the funny thing is it
was simply something as easy, asthe camera doesn't laugh at my
jokes.
I always make the joke.
I measure my success, yeah, onhow much I have you laughing by
the time that we finish our.
You know talk, you knowtraining, whatever it is, the
camera doesn't laugh.
(08:59):
So I was failing.
Every time I get it yeah, I get, I get it Like oh, is that
funny?
Jay Harris (09:04):
Oh, let me redo that one.
No, I don't like that.
Let me do that.
No, I get it.
I absolutely get it.
A part of my tastefullyunhinged-ness that I talk about.
It is in my normalconversations, you know, with
folks, and I rely on humor a lotbecause it's just a part of my
personality, the it's just apart of my personality.
The thing is, is that my styleof humor is I am my audience of
(09:32):
my jokes.
Of course I consider who's outin the audience, but for the
most part I'm the audience.
So if it's funny to me, I canmess around and, as they say in
the South, I get tickled at myown self.
I can think something.
I'm like that was funny.
People are like what's wrong.
You know.
So it's just one of thosethings where, whether it lands
or not, if it feels, if it'sappropriate, it feels good to
you.
You know, sometimes it's thenot having the audience and
(09:55):
laughing at your own jokes thatI've seen that resonates with
folks.
So again, it's just thatauthenticity, I get it.
Jay Johnson (10:02):
I am.
I am guilty as charged on thatone one too, jay.
So, you know, let's talk aboutthis, though, because I think
it's kind of an interesting.
I think it's kind of aninteresting background where you
have a performance background.
You've been in theater, you'vebeen in productions, and you
know when people hear thatoftentimes they're like, okay,
(10:26):
so is your talk a performance?
Well, yes, but at the same timeit's an authentic performance,
like how do we?
What does that look like?
Because I do know that a lot oftrainers or coaches have at
least done something like improvor worked their way, and it's
really helpful.
We can get into that.
But how do you balance thatsort of performative J versus
(10:49):
the authentic J, and how do youmerge those things together?
Jay Harris (10:52):
Well, the first thing I want to say, number one,
that's a really good questionand I want to say that it took
some time to get to a space ofit not being a performance, for
many reasons that I won't Iwon't belabor our time.
However, I do want toacknowledge that it, as I
mentioned earlier, we all wantto do a good job and we all want
(11:14):
to deliver what insight,information, speaking according
to sometimes an invisible rubricof success that we've created
in our own head, or sometimesbased off of things we've saw on
.
You know, we've watched onYouTube, or maybe someone that
we really admire, that's awell-known speaker, things of
(11:34):
that nature.
So it took a moment to allowmyself to just be inspired by
those things and by those people, but to not take on their
rubric as my rubric.
How I resonate and land withpeople is unique to me and
unique to your listeners andviewers.
So I had to start with thatkind of a mental reframing, if
(11:57):
you will.
The other thing I want to sayabout the performance piece,
because I've gotten this frompeople that say well, jay, of
course you're going to do a goodjob, you're an actor or you've
been in.
You know all of these, you know, performances in theater, and
what I like to tell them is thatstudying performing arts and
(12:18):
studying improv and things ofthose, you know the artistic
sense of speaking, the artisticsense of speaking.
It wasn't a matter ofpretending.
Especially when we talk aboutimprov, a lot of the performing
arts world is helping you to getfamiliar with your instrument,
which is your body, your ownbody language, your facial
(12:39):
expressions, your voice, andit's all about helping you fine
tune what's already there.
And so I would say, for me itdoesn't feel like a performance
because in preparation, throughimprov and through those
productions, I've learned how tocompletely own my instrument,
(13:00):
which is me.
I know how you know my bodymoves and sways.
I'm not going to, I'm notplaying a character, so I'm not
going to hide my Southern accent.
I am, you know, I know me.
I'm pretty expressive, I loveto smile.
I can't help it sometimes.
And so, because I know that I'mgoing to leverage what's
already there and things likeimprov and being able to think
(13:24):
quickly on your feet, it's notlike it imports anyone else's
mind in your head, it's yourmind.
You're just fine-tuning it tolearn how to think strategically
and critically in a way thatyou're able to respond rather
than react off the cuff, as theysay, in acting.
But what that means is just inthe moment, so I don't have to
(13:44):
really balance it, because Ifocus being myself and
leveraging my instrument, whichis my body and my voice.
Jay Johnson (13:54):
That's pretty amazing and since you seem to be
incredibly humble about thisnow, I have mentioned in the
past on this show that I didtheater, but I did it in high
school and I was Conrad birdie.
But it's nothing compared towhat you have accomplished in
this space.
Dream girls on Broadway, wickedAtlanta Broadway I mean, that
(14:17):
is incredible and you know, Ican imagine, I can, I can just
imagine how you show up in aroom.
So that's pretty cool and I'mreally glad that we get to talk
about this.
So let me ask this question Ifyou were to tell all of the
audience why they need to getinto improv or even take a class
(14:37):
, or why they need to practicethis, I've already pulled one
takeaway Get familiar with yourbody, your style, your
instrument.
So I'm stealing that one youcan't use it again.
Jay Harris (14:49):
Why else?
Jay Johnson (14:52):
Why else I'm not getting to let you off easy here
.
Why else is that important?
Because I have found it reallyimpacted everything for me, so
I'd love to hear it from theexpert everything for me.
Jay Harris (15:05):
So I'd love to hear it from the expert.
Yeah Well, that's a really goodquestion to add to just getting
you know comfortable with yourown body and your own voice.
But something else that I wouldsay is it kind of it's actually
it supports learning your voiceand your body because it gets
you out of your head and intoyour body.
When you are doing improv, youdon't get a script and you're
(15:30):
not told what to do and where togo and how to say it.
And of course, you start off inyour head but after a while you
start to train your mind andyour way of thinking to be able
to be in the moment.
So improv is this idea of yesand so, whatever you say to me,
(15:50):
I can't, I'm accepting it andI'm adding to it.
Jay Johnson (15:53):
Would you like some ?
Would you like a Rice Krispiestreat?
No, oh God, that would behorrible Seen over.
Jay Harris (16:01):
Yeah, exactly so, and that's what we don't want.
So when you think about it,when you're improv and you think
about I've got to, I'm going tohave to go with the as the
punches are coming in, I got toroll with it.
What does that look like for me?
And you start to learn that,because there is no rubric in
front of you, you're going tohave to get out of your head and
(16:23):
into the moment.
You're going to have to get outof your head and into the
moment.
So you've got to be activelylistening to what that person's
saying so that you can havesomething of value to add,
something that makes senseroughly makes sense to keep the
narrative moving forward.
So it really does condition youto again get out of your head
and into your body and it allowsyou to get present and into the
(16:43):
moment.
So you're actively listening towhat they're saying.
You don't have an opinionbecause you don't know what
they're gonna say.
So you've gotta truly tune into being present and in the
moment.
The other thing I would say isit helps you expand your
expressive range.
Something I always say is we'veall been there I think most of
(17:04):
us have where you've gone to aconference, maybe not even a
conference, let's just scale itdown to your organization and
maybe the leader, thefacilitator of that meeting is
someone who comes in saying youknow, you know, we're pumped for
this new initiative, we'reexcited.
(17:25):
Yeah, you know yeah, I'veworked on a long time and I feel
it this is, this is it you gotme.
Yeah, you know.
And so it's like are youexcited?
Are we excited Is, are wepumped?
What is this?
So, when I talk aboutexpressive range, improv and and
just the performing arts pieceof this, it gives you, it equips
(17:49):
you with the ability to be ableto stretch.
You know how you show up and Ialways like to say it.
I like to say it's aligningwhat you say with how you say it
.
So sure, I just did an exampleof someone saying they're
excited, they're pumped for thisnew initiative.
But if I come in, I think abouthow do I look and how do I
sound when I'm excited aboutsomething, and I will share with
(18:12):
you that.
I just returned from the BeyonceCowboy Carter concert over the
weekend.
I will tell you, myexpressiveness in that audience
was not we're pumped, I wasphysically pumped.
I left with no voice and I wasexcited and I was charged.
You know the same thing ifyou're delivering something a
(18:35):
bit more critical, you don'twant to show up.
You know cavaliers, ifsomething is so, if it's not
important, you want to show thisis serious.
So I would say that the otherpiece of that is it helps you to
expand your expressive range.
So, leveraging your body beingin the moment and expanding your
expressive range.
So leveraging your body beingin the moment and expanding your
expressive range.
Jay Johnson (18:53):
I really love even thinking about that presence,
because that's actuallysomething I didn't consider as a
skill that's being honed bythat.
I'd always thought about the,the, you know, being able to
react, respond quickly, you know, without necessarily feeling
the okay temper, the emotion,and keep going.
So but that presence piece isreally powerful.
(19:14):
I guess that makes a lot ofsense while you coach on
executive presence and brand andpersonal identity.
Jay Harris (19:20):
So it seems like a great fit, I want to.
Jay Johnson (19:23):
I want to.
I want to dig in on one otherthing that I had heard you say
and I think that sometimes nowI'm going to tell you this I
work as a behavioral scientist.
I interact with neuroscientists, a lot of psychologists, and
most of the time they're not allthat expressive.
(19:44):
So I felt that, as you weresaying, and I think that
sometimes it's like wow, jay,you're like a data science nerd
that just gets really excitedand talks about this stuff, okay
, but anyways, I started mycareer coaching engineers on
communication and I feel like alot of times when I'm working
(20:06):
with someone that maybe they sayI just that I can't be that
expressive, I don't have that inme.
How do you help sort of likedraw, because we as humans all
have access to all of theseskills and ranges.
We just maybe are a littleafraid to explore them, maybe
it's a little nervousness.
So how do you help coachsomebody to sort of bring that
(20:30):
confidence out when maybe theydon't have the confidence or
they don't feel the confidenceinternally?
Jay Harris (20:36):
Yeah, that's a really good question and it's
something that comes up a lotwhere people again I mentioned
earlier that people say well,jay, you know you're into
performing arts, it's easy foryou.
And people have this idea thatpresence is something that
you're born with.
You either have it or you don't.
But I like to think aboutpresence from the perspective of
(20:58):
you being present, you havingthe ability to reach out, build
relationships, being expressive,as I mentioned earlier, and
there's a component of being theself-knowing piece.
So when I think about beingpresent, that's being flexible
enough to handle the unexpectedin the moment.
When I think about reaching out, again, that's building
(21:21):
relationships through trust andcredibility and connection
through empathy and emotionaland situational awareness.
I mentioned early expressiveness, that's aligning what you say
with how you say it.
And then the self-knowing piece.
That kind of lends itself backto understanding your own voice,
your own body.
If you have an accent, sure youcan speak slower.
(21:42):
Make sure that peopleunderstand what you're saying,
but don't let it be a barrier.
If that's a part of who you areand that is a part of your
genetic makeup, it's okay.
Let's lean into it, let's useit.
If you know that you are aperson who relies on humor, find
a way to leverage it wheneveryou are speaking you know those
different categories to helppeople realize that we're not
(22:14):
looking at something that you'reborn with or not, okay, that's
fine.
If you think it's somethingthat I have, that you don't have
, that's fine, okay.
Thank you for that.
But let's look at these mindsetyeah, right, right, that's fine,
but let's just look at thesecategories and let's just see
what happens.
So when we talk about beingpresent, you know, I start to
run people through thesedifferent exercises of one,
(22:35):
telling me a time of when theyfelt that they were most present
in a work situation, and thentimes where they feel like
they're not present, where theystart to get into their head and
start to second guessthemselves and things of that
nature.
So I start to learn more abouthow that person views presence
and we start to find, you know,what are the triggers for you or
(22:58):
the things that make younervous.
You did a great job when youwere talking to your colleagues,
but as soon as the HR personwalked in, you froze up.
Or as soon as the directorwalked in, or your CEO walked in
rightfully so I noticed thatyour voice started to sound a
little bit different than whatI've heard it before.
So we start recognizing whenare the moments where I am most
(23:19):
present, when I am not.
I talk about the reaching outpiece, and this all lends itself
, by the way, to expandingexpressiveness.
I'm going to bring this home.
When we talk about reaching out, people will say, hey, how are
you?
Oh, I'm great, oh, that'sawesome.
All right, so let's jump intothis meeting or whatever it is,
(23:41):
but I say being intentional.
I'm not asking you to put onperformance and do anything
crazy or what have you.
I say take some of thatintentional time during that
check-in, your conversation inthe hallway or on that Zoom call
to really connect with people,and that means sharing a little
bit more about yourself.
So we role play, getting alittle bit comfortable, sharing
(24:01):
something personal aboutyourself that's appropriate, of
course and licensing the otherperson to share something
personal about themselves.
Now you're having a naturalconversation.
You've noticed you guys havegone from.
Hello, john, it's nice to meetyou too.
John, you're crazy, okay.
Jay Johnson (24:17):
So funny.
Jay Harris (24:18):
You know, you start, the naturalness of it starts to
show up through you buildingthat connection.
So we're not thinking about howexpressive can I be right now.
All we've thought about is howpresent can I be and what line
or what thread can I find toconnect with this person in a
real way?
And when you set the stage inthat way, you find yourself
(24:41):
getting comfortable, disarmingthe conversation, disarming the
room in a way that you're ableto be more of yourself, that
you're able to be more ofyourself.
People are feeling morecomfortable being themselves and
the expressiveness starts toblend itself into the
conversation, to the interaction, and it starts to show up
naturally.
(25:02):
I will say, one of the ways thatwe fine tune that is through
some role-playing and I'll saylet me see you recite this line
for me, this business line, andwe have an important matter to
discuss.
Let me see you say that in a way, that one line, as if you were
really excited about something.
And so when I go to you and Isay, jay, we have an important
(25:26):
matter to discuss, it's exciting.
That's something there like oh,I want to know what this is
versus if it's something that'smore constructive feedback or
maybe there is a warning of somesort or some type of
consequence, then that looks alittle bit different.
You know, I have to say, john,we have an important matter to
discuss, you know, and it's justaligning what you say with how
(25:50):
you say it.
So it's kind of like a pathforward.
You set the stage by beingpresent, create that path of
connection and then think abouthow do I want this person or
these people to feel by the endof this conversation or by the
end of this presentation, whatit is, and lean into what that
looks like.
And that's where we start.
Jay Johnson (26:09):
I would say, lean into what that looks like and
that's where we start.
I would say let's body languageis such body language tone.
inflection is such an importantpart of our trust building, and
I really like how you tappedinto supporting people and
navigating their way to creatingvulnerability loops.
I mean essentially.
So I'm going to go back to aquestion on this before we
finish, about how do we know isenough to share or too much to
(26:32):
share, cause I've seen bothsides of that.
But I did want to stick withone other thing, and it was so
funny because, as you weretalking, it reminded me of a
faculty member who I had gone toa number of of their courses.
Actually, it was probably thenumber one faculty member that I
went to dry as a bone, butwicked, smart, I mean just
(26:56):
brilliant.
I loved the content, but therewas points in times that I felt
like I was going to fall asleepat nine 30 in the morning and
then something strange happened.
All right, another faculty whoI happened to be good friends
with was having a birthday party.
That faculty member was friendswith this faculty member.
Wow, and we happen to be at auh backyard barbecue with the
(27:20):
fire.
The dry, boring faculty membermay have been one of the
funniest people on the planet.
Yes, and like I'm looking andI'm, I'm in stitches the whole
night.
I'm crying, I'm laughing sohard and I'm looking and I'm
like who are you?
Yeah, and why are you notbringing?
(27:40):
this right into your classroom,yeah, and, and it was so
interesting and it was just thatit was that level of being
comfortable being yourself.
Yes, and that was what he said.
He was just like I just youknow it's it's a strange
audience, and so I know thatthere's people in our audience
here today, jay, that areprobably experiencing a little
(28:01):
bit of that.
Like I can't, I can't be myself, I can't bring that fireside
personality out into that spaceside personality out into that
space.
I got to imagine I've beenasked a lot of times you do get
nervous when you're speaking andat this point in time, for the
most part, no flashback to tidex2018 and they were like, jay,
(28:21):
you've got five minutes beforeyou're on.
I was like, oh, that's whatthat feels like.
Yes, I do.
I do still get nervous insomething.
Right, how do you manage yournerves?
Because there's, there's got tobe something along the way.
Whether it's, whether it'swicked, I do still get nervous
in something right.
Jay Harris (28:36):
How do you manage your nerves?
Jay Johnson (28:37):
Because there's got to be something along the way,
whether it's Wicked Broadway oreven a coaching.
How do you manage those nerves?
How do you pull back on that?
Jay Harris (28:51):
Yeah, that's a very real common human experience to
get nervous whenever there'ssomething on the line for you,
whether it's just to win youraudience over, or whether it's a
presentation to show progresson an initiative or a project
that you're working on.
Whenever there's something onthe line for us, even if it's
just our reputation, which is abig deal, nerves happen.
You know, and it's verypractical.
The first thing I do is Inotice, I do what I like to call
(29:12):
a body scan, is my heart'sracing or I start to feel that
(29:35):
anxiety.
It's very practical.
This is a very practical method.
It's not rocket science, but itis a little bit of behavioral
science and it's simply take adeep breath.
You got to ground yourself inthe moment and take that deep
breath.
And I tell people a real deepbreath, one from your diaphragm,
(29:56):
not one of those, okay, youknow, and you lock it all in
right there.
That's not a deep breath.
It's taking a deep breath,allowing your diaphragm to
contract and expand and reallystart to calm your nerves,
because what you're experiencingis your amygdala doing its
thing, that fight, flight or,you know, freeze response
(30:19):
happening, and the way to calmthat down is you've got to take
that deep breath in the momentand crown yourself.
And I tell people, if you'redelivering something in person
on your way up to the stage,find those opportunistic moments
for you to take that deepbreath.
If it's walking up to the stagebefore you, the mic cuts on or
you grab the mic or you getready to go, do that.
(30:41):
Or if it's right before you logon to that Zoom meeting, do
that.
Even if you're in a meeting, youopen a conversation, I say
create an opportunity to get theaudience involved right away.
So if I say you know, jay, Iappreciate you for bringing me
on today, I'm excited.
Now, tell me a little bit aboutwhere you're located, and you
know, tell me more about yourrole and position.
I want to understand that alittle bit about where you're
(31:03):
located, and you know, tell memore about your role and
position.
I want to understand that alittle bit more.
One, it gets you talking andinvolved.
Two, it gives me some time tobreathe and it gives me some
time to relax into theconversation.
So that deep breath isdefinitely one the thing I
recommend to everyone.
The second thing I wanted tomention yeah, you're going to
(31:23):
say something.
Jay Johnson (31:24):
No, I'm just.
I could not agree more withthat, you know, and especially
the diaphragm breath.
One of the other biologicalthings that that actually does
is it creates additional spacein and around the heart, it
relieves some of the pressureoff of that, which can actually
have a really powerful impact ofcalming the body down and
(31:44):
putting us back into theparasympathetic.
So awesome, that's how I havesomething to steal from you.
There you go, steal it, take it.
Jay Harris (31:52):
My own research.
So, no, that's good, but itsupports that idea of just
relaxing yourself and gettingback into the moment.
The second thing I was going tomention especially hearing the
story about your colleague isstorytelling.
Especially when you'redelivering data, numbers and
things that can sound put us tosleep at 9.30 in the morning,
(32:15):
even though we just woke up, weshould be excited is find a way
to incorporate storytelling and,whether it's a personal story
or a metaphor type of story thatyou can weave the data into to
make it interesting andpalatable for any audience.
I say is definitely gonna be oneof your I start to say one of
(32:40):
your best friends when it comesto delivering information,
especially dry data.
There's a study from the LondonBusiness School where they say
that people retain 65 to 70percent more information when
it's woven into stories, versus5 to 10 percent whenever it is
(33:01):
just dry data and numbers andreports.
And so I would say leveragestorytelling.
When your colleague was aroundthat fireside chat, it's because
he one felt more comfortable,but he's also just sharing
stories.
There's no rubric once again.
So I say, find thoseopportunities where you can
(33:22):
weave what you have to say intoa story that is relatable to
folks and to people of anyaudience.
I want to add a note to that, tosay In terms of you know, of
course you want to be thoughtfulabout the time that you spend
when you're sharing your story,but just again, be yourself as a
(33:43):
southerner.
We tell stories.
They can go on and on, and onand on, and I'm actually I'm
still telling a story from 10years ago.
I should be finished thisafternoon.
But, with that being said, oneof the things I like that we do
when we talk about storytellingis finding a way to be strategic
with your storytelling so thatit doesn't have to take forever
(34:05):
but it can be impactful andengaging and still win your
audience over and you get toimplement some of your own
personality, which naturallyshows up whenever you enter.
Weave a story into anyconversation.
So I would.
Those are the top two things Iwould say for the sake of our
conversation taking that deepbreath and leverage storytelling
(34:26):
where you can.
Jay Johnson (34:28):
Yeah, that's really powerful and storytelling is
one of those things really welldocumented in the andragogical
sciences about human learningand it's really something that
does it's like memory recallseven six times faster on things
where there's a visual component, and usually the story is what
creates the visual capacity forit, cause we imagine ourselves,
(34:51):
we see ourselves in the story sobeautifully stated.
All right.
So I want to ask this kind offinal question and I'm going to
context.
I'm going to put this intocontext because, with you doing
the kind of coaching that you'redoing for presence and brand,
you know, one of the things thatyou said earlier was about
(35:11):
reputation and you know we fearour reputation being damaged.
And, interestingly, there'sreally really good cognitive
neuroscience studies done onthis exact same thing and what
they kind of call it is a socialdeath.
All right, so we fear a socialdeath.
Nearly the same parts of thebrain light up exactly when we
(35:33):
are experiencing something likea social death.
And to clarify this, imagineyou're a junior lawyer walking
in and two senior partners in alaw firm just shred your
document and you shred yourbrief and all of a sudden you
feel this social death, thisanxiety that comes from it
(35:54):
because you're going to getkicked out of the tribe.
You failed, you let down yourelders, et cetera.
I mean, this goes back way waydeep into our human cognition
and biology.
Okay, so, whenever we want tostep into this this is where I'm
relating it to the question Iwanted to ask you Whenever we
step into vulnerability, we arerisking social death.
(36:17):
And if we know that the brainlights up the same ways when
we're worried or anxious aboutthe physical death, like an
actual, like biological death,how do we know when being too
open is too open, or how do weknow what's the right you know?
How do we I know, you knowwhere I'm going with this how do
(36:38):
we ensure that we're not overvulnerable but not holding so
much back that we're notcreating the connections that we
need to create?
Jay Harris (36:47):
Yeah, that's a really good question and really
quickly, I want to say twothings I thought about when you
talked to, when you wereexplaining this idea of a social
death, and how that works forus internally.
It's interesting.
As they say, we are our ownworst critics, so I tell people
this all the time.
I promise you you're an awesomeperson, but no one is thinking
(37:10):
about you more than you'rethinking about yourself.
Jay Johnson (37:12):
It's facts.
Jay Harris (37:13):
And because you are the one living in your own head,
and so people forget aboutthings more often than you
realize.
I recently thought aboutsomething that happened to me
years ago in grade school and Ithought this was yesterday and I
thought, oh, why did I do that?
No one's thinking about what Idid in the third grade but me.
(37:34):
So, number one, I'll start bysaying no one's thinking about
you as much as you're thinkingabout yourself, and so, as
important as our reputation isto us, a lot of times the stakes
aren't as high as we feel thatthey are.
However, as it pertains toknowing when you overshare or
(37:57):
when you need to share a bitmore, that lends itself back to
what I mentioned earlier aboutbeing present in the moment.
By being both, it allows you tobe both emotionally aware and
situationally aware.
It's one of those things wherewe have to get in the habit of
training and fine-tuningourselves to know if you have a
(38:19):
relationship with the people inthe room.
Rely on that.
You know their communicationstyle.
You know a little bit aboutwhere they the room.
Rely on that.
You know their communicationstyle.
You know a little bit aboutwhere they're from, or even just
from stories that they'veshared with you about maybe
television shows that they likeor pop culture.
You know a little bit aboutthem and so you have a degree of
insight about how you caninteract with that person and
(38:41):
types of things you can share.
Interact with that person andtypes of things you can share.
If you don't know the people,you want to pay attention to how
they're responding to thingsthat you've already said, maybe
in just your opening hello, myname is or thinking about what
you've heard them say in theroom.
Maybe you've walked in the rooma little bit before and just
kind of listened to some oftheir conversations.
(39:01):
So I have to say that while Ithink it's important to be
yourself and be vulnerable andnot to get too caught up in your
head about being judged, youalso want to pay attention to
what's happening in the room,because that informs you know
what types of conversationswould be appropriate for you
know where you are, and sothat's the headline answer I
(39:23):
would say is to one where youare, and so that's that's the
headline answer I would say isto one.
If you know the people,leverage your relationship with
them and what you know aboutthem already.
But to the other thing would berecognized in the room what
people are saying and howthey're responding to you and
how they're responding to eachother, and that will inform you
know how far can I go.
Jay Johnson (39:44):
Yeah, whenever I am , I like that.
No, I was just, I really likedthat.
Jay Harris (39:49):
Yeah, I was going to say that whenever I'm
facilitating in a room with agroup of people and I start by
asking them questions like youknow, what are your
communication?
What would you say is yourcommunication strength and what
would you say is yourcommunication challenge?
I want you to think about thisand I want you to share that
(40:12):
with me, share it with others.
But then I want you to, afteryou've shared what your
challenge is, just outright.
I want you to share what yourchallenge is, but using a
metaphor.
From this I start, and when Ihear people's metaphors, some
people might say oh well, youknow, my communication challenge
is you know, sometimes I gettoo caught up in my head
(40:37):
whenever I am, you know, tryingto present.
So it's kind of like a hamsteron a wheel that's going round
and round and round and that'swhat's happening to me.
Other people might say I getnervous and I basically think
(40:58):
about myself falling from acliff in the Grand Canyon and by
the time I get to the groundI'm going to be eaten by an
alligator.
So I start to pick up on thebreadth and the expansion of how
creative some people arethinking and just getting a
better, helping myself get thisarsenal of information from
(41:21):
these folks about okay, I'mstarting to understand how you
think creatively versus if Ijust come in and say, okay, I
want everyone to get up on theirfeet.
We're going to do some improv.
Right off the gate they're like, no thanks, that's not what I
do.
But if I'm able to position itin a way where they're giving me
real information but wrappingit in something that's visual, I
(41:42):
start to get an understandingof the way they think creatively
and then it gives me anopportunity to kind of build on
that.
That's brilliant.
Jay Johnson (41:53):
So trainers, coaches out there, don't just
jump into the improv Just jumpin.
Ask the questions that'll helpthem sort of step into it in a
really powerful way.
I love it.
Jay, I knew this conversationwas gonna be awesome and you
definitely delivered.
So if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, how would
they reach out to you?
Jay Harris (42:12):
Yeah, so I would say a few ways.
One I would love to connectwith, especially a lot of the
other coaches and facilitatorsand trainers, hr professionals
that are watching find me onLinkedIn and there you'll see my
full name, which is Javaris,and that's
J-A-V-I-R-I-S-H-A-R-I-S.
But also I'm going to providesome ways for people to connect
(42:35):
with me via email, because a lotof us face some of the same
challenges, some of the samequestions and a lot of times it
takes a peer or someone who'salready in that.
In the same, you've been tasked.
We want you to build a learningdevelopment program for VP plus
go.
Well, who are you going to talkto about that?
I want to be able to help youwith that, so you can connect
(42:58):
with me via email as well.
At the letter, jharris ataerial group A-R-I-E I e l
groupcom and we'll make surethat's in the show notes.
Jay Johnson (43:07):
Jay, I want to say thank you.
This has been an awesomeconversation, I would say, with
a fellow thespian.
But I am not of that level.
Uh, I can say that whensomebody's like, yeah, I did
improv once back in college, Ican say that, but I can't say
that to you.
But I've gotten to learn, butit is uh, I'll.
I'll say a, a fellow theaterenthusiast.
(43:27):
How's that?
I like that.
Jay Harris (43:29):
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Jay Johnson (43:31):
You have.
You have given some great ideasand some great tactics and I
really appreciate you taking thetime to be here with us on the
talent forge.
Jay Harris (43:37):
Of course, thank you so much Equally enjoyed our
conversation.
I knew I would also and justthank you so much for having me
had a great time.
Jay Johnson (43:47):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where, together, we are shaping
the future of training anddevelopment.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where, together, we are shapingthe future of training and
development.
Today, we have a special guestcoming to us from Atlanta,
georgia, jay Harris.
Welcome, jay, hello, hello,thank you for having me.
All right.
So I learned enough just in ourconnection that I was
definitely going to like you assoon as I saw your name.
(00:23):
We share a name, which isawesome, but we actually share
some similar backgrounds and I'dlove for the audience to get to
know you, jay, tell us how didyou get into training, coaching,
leadership?
I'd love to hear that story.
Jay Harris (00:34):
Yeah, yeah, thank you again for having me and,
again, lots of things in common,including our name.
But I'll tell you this, jay,that I remember working with an
organization that I was a partof before and I just started
kind of entering into theexecutive realm of things, and I
(00:55):
remember having a conversationwith a woman who I'll share her
name here it's Adrienne Massey,and she was over our learning
and development program at thatparticular company at that time
and she and I started having aconversation and I started
sharing a little bit of mybackground and I said, well,
what do you think if I getinvolved with trying to teach or
(01:17):
coach that particular modulethat you have?
And she said, yeah, let's giveit a try.
And I'm telling you, man, Ifell in love with you.
Man, I fell in love with it.
I fell in love with it becauseit's one of those things where
I've learned with coaching,where you're not giving them you
know the exact formula thatthey have to use.
This is the way to do it.
It's really helping people tapinto something that they already
(01:40):
have and something that theyalready possess, and I know how
valuable that's been for me andall the careers that I've been a
part of.
And so when I got a chance tojust see that transformation
happening, you know from myperspective as a coach I never
left and I don't plan on leaving.
Jay Johnson (01:58):
Okay, I love that.
So you know, and that's thething is, once you get a little
taste of the experience ofcoaching or training and really
helping elevate people, I dothink it's like.
Then it's like all right,when's my next?
Jay Harris (02:10):
when's my next coaching bump?
When's my next coaching bump?
Right?
Jay Johnson (02:14):
So let me ask you this question what kind of
pressure were you feeling whenyou had you had jumped in, you
had asked that question um toyour colleague, and they said
yes.
And then, at that point in time, it's like all right, not only
am I getting in front of people,not only am I going to have to,
you know, take this module, butyou're also doing it under the
(02:35):
wing of somebody whom obviouslyyou had some respect for.
So what was that pressure like?
Jay Harris (02:47):
I'll tell you the pressure it was, um, it was a
lot, because I'll say I like toframe it like this I was
experiencing with a lot of ourcoachees experience when they
come to us, you know, to talkabout developing themselves.
So one of the things that I wasfeeling right off, you know the
top, is I want to do a good job, I want to meet this
(03:08):
opportunity in the best way thatI possibly can.
So I definitely felt somepressure to get it right.
I'll be honest with you too.
I also had my own idea of whata facilitator or coach in this
realm should sound like, shouldbe like, and I had to find my
voice, my real voice, not myperformance voice or my
(03:34):
agreeable voice or myprofessional voice.
I had to really lean into beingmyself and finding my own path
and my own way of deliveringworkshops as well as delivering
coaching.
But I felt that pressure ofgetting it right.
So it took some time to get tothat point.
(03:55):
I also felt the pressure ofbeing able coach others in a way
that resonates with them.
You know, I think for a lot ofus, if we're being honest, we,
you know, we're assigned a coachor, let's say, you've been
tasked with doing a corporate,attending a corporate training.
(04:17):
Some people might say, ok, Iknow this is a corporate
training, I got to do this, it'sa mandate.
I'm going to, you know, sitthrough this, get through it,
get my credit and then I'm goingto go away.
And it's because youtraditionally have an
expectation of how it's going tobe and how relevant it will or
will not be for you as anindividual and who you are as a
person.
So for me, there was anotherexpectation of pressure of I
(04:41):
want this to land and I reallywant it to make a difference,
not just you know, not just itbe a.
We got to get through theagenda.
Jay Johnson (04:50):
I think we all feel that at different points in
time.
So thank you, thank you forsharing that.
I want to.
I want to zero in on somethingthat you had mentioned.
It's about finding your sort oflike coaching, training voice.
Here's my experience and I wantto know have you had anything
like this or anything else?
I have a voice, or like myauthentic voice, when I am
(05:14):
delivering on a keynote stage.
I feel like that's prettyconsistent with when I'm
training.
I feel like it's evenmoderately consistent when I'm
coaching, the moment I move intovideo work or writing.
It is like that is not.
It just doesn't.
It doesn't work, it doesn'tflow and I think the first time
(05:36):
I went to video I was like whatthe hell is wrong with me?
I've been speaking for 20 years.
I can't, I can't get a sentenceout.
I can't, it doesn't feel right.
I looked at the video.
I can't, I can't get a sentenceout.
I can't, it doesn't feel right.
I looked at the video.
I'm like who is?
Jay Harris (05:51):
this.
Have you had that experience orwhat do you think about that?
Of course, I think that so manyof us in general have that, but
especially when you're in, youknow this realm of of um, you
know delivering information, andwhen you're put in front of
that video or you turn therecord button on again, I think
we all default to.
I want to get this right, I wantto be credible, I want people
(06:12):
to believe me, I want to appearseasoned and like I know what
I'm doing, and so we kind ofdefault to that thinking of what
does a professional sound like?
Or what does a person who hasbeen speaking for years upon
years, or people that we look upto or we watch on our own
(06:36):
streaming platforms or YouTubeor what have you?
What do they sound like?
And so you kind of get intothat mode.
And so you kind of get intothat mode when you're in person
and I've noticed this for myself, I should say when I'm in
person on stage, I can see theaudience.
I get to kind of tailor what'shappening in my room based off
of whether they're receiving itor not.
(06:57):
And I'll tell you this I amoriginally from Savannah,
georgia.
So the longer the session goes,the more Southern accent kicks
in and the storytelling ramps upand I'm using colloquialisms
that people are falling in lovewith because I'm leaning into
being myself and, even thoughthey may not, it's not an
ongoing conversation theirreactions and the energy in the
(07:19):
room I feel like we're having aconversation and I feel like
we're building that trust as wego.
I feel like we're having aconversation and I feel like
we're building that trust as wego.
When you're on camera, all youhave is to assume how people
will receive you, and so you'reback into that mode of what you
think is presentable, what youthink looks seasoned, and so
I've had that same experience.
(07:39):
But I always tell myself I sayyou know what, I want to show up
as me.
There's plenty of speakers outthere in the world.
There are plenty of people thatdo what we do.
But it's actually when I showup as myself I told you earlier
I can be a little tastefullyunhinged, and all that means is
I can be a little crazy, and Ishow up with that.
(08:00):
And I see some people you knowcomments later.
They're like you know what withthat, and I see some people you
know comments later.
They're like you know what, I'ma little crazy and I get that,
or you being that vulnerableabout being intimidated for the
first time speaking in front ofa group, even though you know
you can do this.
That resonated with me becauseI felt the same way when when I
got up to speak.
So it's something about thatauthenticity that if you lean
(08:21):
into it, you're going to hit ahome run.
Jay Johnson (08:24):
And it's so.
Spot on, jay, because that'sexactly what I was doing was.
I was coming in and all of asudden, because the camera's
there, so it all of a suddenbecame Corporate Jay, which I
don't, I don't know CorporateJay, corporate.
Jay Harris (08:35):
Jay doesn't really exist.
I get it, I get it.
Jay Johnson (08:39):
But I realized and this is the funny thing is it
was simply something as easy, asthe camera doesn't laugh at my
jokes.
I always make the joke.
I measure my success, yeah, onhow much I have you laughing by
the time that we finish our.
You know talk, you knowtraining, whatever it is, the
camera doesn't laugh.
(08:59):
So I was failing.
Every time I get it yeah, I get, I get it Like oh, is that
funny?
Jay Harris (09:04):
Oh, let me redo that one.
No, I don't like that.
Let me do that.
No, I get it.
I absolutely get it.
A part of my tastefullyunhinged-ness that I talk about.
It is in my normalconversations, you know, with
folks, and I rely on humor a lotbecause it's just a part of my
personality, the it's just apart of my personality.
The thing is, is that my styleof humor is I am my audience of
(09:32):
my jokes.
Of course I consider who's outin the audience, but for the
most part I'm the audience.
So if it's funny to me, I canmess around and, as they say in
the South, I get tickled at myown self.
I can think something.
I'm like that was funny.
People are like what's wrong.
You know.
So it's just one of thosethings where, whether it lands
or not, if it feels, if it'sappropriate, it feels good to
you.
You know, sometimes it's thenot having the audience and
(09:55):
laughing at your own jokes thatI've seen that resonates with
folks.
So again, it's just thatauthenticity, I get it.
Jay Johnson (10:02):
I am.
I am guilty as charged on thatone one too, jay.
So, you know, let's talk aboutthis, though, because I think
it's kind of an interesting.
I think it's kind of aninteresting background where you
have a performance background.
You've been in theater, you'vebeen in productions, and you
know when people hear thatoftentimes they're like, okay,
(10:26):
so is your talk a performance?
Well, yes, but at the same timeit's an authentic performance,
like how do we?
What does that look like?
Because I do know that a lot oftrainers or coaches have at
least done something like improvor worked their way, and it's
really helpful.
We can get into that.
But how do you balance thatsort of performative J versus
(10:49):
the authentic J, and how do youmerge those things together?
Jay Harris (10:52):
Well, the first thing I want to say, number one,
that's a really good questionand I want to say that it took
some time to get to a space ofit not being a performance, for
many reasons that I won't Iwon't belabor our time.
However, I do want toacknowledge that it, as I
mentioned earlier, we all wantto do a good job and we all want
(11:14):
to deliver what insight,information, speaking according
to sometimes an invisible rubricof success that we've created
in our own head, or sometimesbased off of things we've saw on
.
You know, we've watched onYouTube, or maybe someone that
we really admire, that's awell-known speaker, things of
(11:34):
that nature.
So it took a moment to allowmyself to just be inspired by
those things and by those people, but to not take on their
rubric as my rubric.
How I resonate and land withpeople is unique to me and
unique to your listeners andviewers.
So I had to start with thatkind of a mental reframing, if
(11:57):
you will.
The other thing I want to sayabout the performance piece,
because I've gotten this frompeople that say well, jay, of
course you're going to do a goodjob, you're an actor or you've
been in.
You know all of these, you know, performances in theater, and
what I like to tell them is thatstudying performing arts and
(12:18):
studying improv and things ofthose, you know the artistic
sense of speaking, the artisticsense of speaking.
It wasn't a matter ofpretending.
Especially when we talk aboutimprov, a lot of the performing
arts world is helping you to getfamiliar with your instrument,
which is your body, your ownbody language, your facial
(12:39):
expressions, your voice, andit's all about helping you fine
tune what's already there.
And so I would say, for me itdoesn't feel like a performance
because in preparation, throughimprov and through those
productions, I've learned how tocompletely own my instrument,
(13:00):
which is me.
I know how you know my bodymoves and sways.
I'm not going to, I'm notplaying a character, so I'm not
going to hide my Southern accent.
I am, you know, I know me.
I'm pretty expressive, I loveto smile.
I can't help it sometimes.
And so, because I know that I'mgoing to leverage what's
already there and things likeimprov and being able to think
(13:24):
quickly on your feet, it's notlike it imports anyone else's
mind in your head, it's yourmind.
You're just fine-tuning it tolearn how to think strategically
and critically in a way thatyou're able to respond rather
than react off the cuff, as theysay, in acting.
But what that means is just inthe moment, so I don't have to
(13:44):
really balance it, because Ifocus being myself and
leveraging my instrument, whichis my body and my voice.
Jay Johnson (13:54):
That's pretty amazing and since you seem to be
incredibly humble about thisnow, I have mentioned in the
past on this show that I didtheater, but I did it in high
school and I was Conrad birdie.
But it's nothing compared towhat you have accomplished in
this space.
Dream girls on Broadway, wickedAtlanta Broadway I mean, that
(14:17):
is incredible and you know, Ican imagine, I can, I can just
imagine how you show up in aroom.
So that's pretty cool and I'mreally glad that we get to talk
about this.
So let me ask this question Ifyou were to tell all of the
audience why they need to getinto improv or even take a class
(14:37):
, or why they need to practicethis, I've already pulled one
takeaway Get familiar with yourbody, your style, your
instrument.
So I'm stealing that one youcan't use it again.
Jay Harris (14:49):
Why else?
Jay Johnson (14:52):
Why else I'm not getting to let you off easy here
.
Why else is that important?
Because I have found it reallyimpacted everything for me, so
I'd love to hear it from theexpert everything for me.
Jay Harris (15:05):
So I'd love to hear it from the expert.
Yeah Well, that's a really goodquestion to add to just getting
you know comfortable with yourown body and your own voice.
But something else that I wouldsay is it kind of it's actually
it supports learning your voiceand your body because it gets
you out of your head and intoyour body.
When you are doing improv, youdon't get a script and you're
(15:30):
not told what to do and where togo and how to say it.
And of course, you start off inyour head but after a while you
start to train your mind andyour way of thinking to be able
to be in the moment.
So improv is this idea of yesand so, whatever you say to me,
(15:50):
I can't, I'm accepting it andI'm adding to it.
Jay Johnson (15:53):
Would you like some ?
Would you like a Rice Krispiestreat?
No, oh God, that would behorrible Seen over.
Jay Harris (16:01):
Yeah, exactly so, and that's what we don't want.
So when you think about it,when you're improv and you think
about I've got to, I'm going tohave to go with the as the
punches are coming in, I got toroll with it.
What does that look like for me?
And you start to learn that,because there is no rubric in
front of you, you're going tohave to get out of your head and
(16:23):
into the moment.
You're going to have to get outof your head and into the
moment.
So you've got to be activelylistening to what that person's
saying so that you can havesomething of value to add,
something that makes senseroughly makes sense to keep the
narrative moving forward.
So it really does condition youto again get out of your head
and into your body and it allowsyou to get present and into the
(16:43):
moment.
So you're actively listening towhat they're saying.
You don't have an opinionbecause you don't know what
they're gonna say.
So you've gotta truly tune into being present and in the
moment.
The other thing I would say isit helps you expand your
expressive range.
Something I always say is we'veall been there I think most of
(17:04):
us have where you've gone to aconference, maybe not even a
conference, let's just scale itdown to your organization and
maybe the leader, thefacilitator of that meeting is
someone who comes in saying youknow, you know, we're pumped for
this new initiative, we'reexcited.
(17:25):
Yeah, you know yeah, I'veworked on a long time and I feel
it this is, this is it you gotme.
Yeah, you know.
And so it's like are youexcited?
Are we excited Is, are wepumped?
What is this?
So, when I talk aboutexpressive range, improv and and
just the performing arts pieceof this, it gives you, it equips
(17:49):
you with the ability to be ableto stretch.
You know how you show up and Ialways like to say it.
I like to say it's aligningwhat you say with how you say it
.
So sure, I just did an exampleof someone saying they're
excited, they're pumped for thisnew initiative.
But if I come in, I think abouthow do I look and how do I
sound when I'm excited aboutsomething, and I will share with
(18:12):
you that.
I just returned from the BeyonceCowboy Carter concert over the
weekend.
I will tell you, myexpressiveness in that audience
was not we're pumped, I wasphysically pumped.
I left with no voice and I wasexcited and I was charged.
You know the same thing ifyou're delivering something a
(18:35):
bit more critical, you don'twant to show up.
You know cavaliers, ifsomething is so, if it's not
important, you want to show thisis serious.
So I would say that the otherpiece of that is it helps you to
expand your expressive range.
So, leveraging your body beingin the moment and expanding your
expressive range.
So leveraging your body beingin the moment and expanding your
expressive range.
Jay Johnson (18:53):
I really love even thinking about that presence,
because that's actuallysomething I didn't consider as a
skill that's being honed bythat.
I'd always thought about the,the, you know, being able to
react, respond quickly, you know, without necessarily feeling
the okay temper, the emotion,and keep going.
So but that presence piece isreally powerful.
(19:14):
I guess that makes a lot ofsense while you coach on
executive presence and brand andpersonal identity.
Jay Harris (19:20):
So it seems like a great fit, I want to.
Jay Johnson (19:23):
I want to.
I want to dig in on one otherthing that I had heard you say
and I think that sometimes nowI'm going to tell you this I
work as a behavioral scientist.
I interact with neuroscientists, a lot of psychologists, and
most of the time they're not allthat expressive.
(19:44):
So I felt that, as you weresaying, and I think that
sometimes it's like wow, jay,you're like a data science nerd
that just gets really excitedand talks about this stuff, okay
, but anyways, I started mycareer coaching engineers on
communication and I feel like alot of times when I'm working
(20:06):
with someone that maybe they sayI just that I can't be that
expressive, I don't have that inme.
How do you help sort of likedraw, because we as humans all
have access to all of theseskills and ranges.
We just maybe are a littleafraid to explore them, maybe
it's a little nervousness.
So how do you help coachsomebody to sort of bring that
(20:30):
confidence out when maybe theydon't have the confidence or
they don't feel the confidenceinternally?
Jay Harris (20:36):
Yeah, that's a really good question and it's
something that comes up a lotwhere people again I mentioned
earlier that people say well,jay, you know you're into
performing arts, it's easy foryou.
And people have this idea thatpresence is something that
you're born with.
You either have it or you don't.
But I like to think aboutpresence from the perspective of
(20:58):
you being present, you havingthe ability to reach out, build
relationships, being expressive,as I mentioned earlier, and
there's a component of being theself-knowing piece.
So when I think about beingpresent, that's being flexible
enough to handle the unexpectedin the moment.
When I think about reaching out, again, that's building
(21:21):
relationships through trust andcredibility and connection
through empathy and emotionaland situational awareness.
I mentioned early expressiveness, that's aligning what you say
with how you say it.
And then the self-knowing piece.
That kind of lends itself backto understanding your own voice,
your own body.
If you have an accent, sure youcan speak slower.
(21:42):
Make sure that peopleunderstand what you're saying,
but don't let it be a barrier.
If that's a part of who you areand that is a part of your
genetic makeup, it's okay.
Let's lean into it, let's useit.
If you know that you are aperson who relies on humor, find
a way to leverage it wheneveryou are speaking you know those
different categories to helppeople realize that we're not
(22:14):
looking at something that you'reborn with or not, okay, that's
fine.
If you think it's somethingthat I have, that you don't have
, that's fine, okay.
Thank you for that.
But let's look at these mindsetyeah, right, right, that's fine,
but let's just look at thesecategories and let's just see
what happens.
So when we talk about beingpresent, you know, I start to
run people through thesedifferent exercises of one,
(22:35):
telling me a time of when theyfelt that they were most present
in a work situation, and thentimes where they feel like
they're not present, where theystart to get into their head and
start to second guessthemselves and things of that
nature.
So I start to learn more abouthow that person views presence
and we start to find, you know,what are the triggers for you or
(22:58):
the things that make younervous.
You did a great job when youwere talking to your colleagues,
but as soon as the HR personwalked in, you froze up.
Or as soon as the directorwalked in, or your CEO walked in
rightfully so I noticed thatyour voice started to sound a
little bit different than whatI've heard it before.
So we start recognizing whenare the moments where I am most
(23:19):
present, when I am not.
I talk about the reaching outpiece, and this all lends itself
, by the way, to expandingexpressiveness.
I'm going to bring this home.
When we talk about reaching out, people will say, hey, how are
you?
Oh, I'm great, oh, that'sawesome.
All right, so let's jump intothis meeting or whatever it is,
(23:41):
but I say being intentional.
I'm not asking you to put onperformance and do anything
crazy or what have you.
I say take some of thatintentional time during that
check-in, your conversation inthe hallway or on that Zoom call
to really connect with people,and that means sharing a little
bit more about yourself.
So we role play, getting alittle bit comfortable, sharing
(24:01):
something personal aboutyourself that's appropriate, of
course and licensing the otherperson to share something
personal about themselves.
Now you're having a naturalconversation.
You've noticed you guys havegone from.
Hello, john, it's nice to meetyou too.
John, you're crazy, okay.
Jay Johnson (24:17):
So funny.
Jay Harris (24:18):
You know, you start, the naturalness of it starts to
show up through you buildingthat connection.
So we're not thinking about howexpressive can I be right now.
All we've thought about is howpresent can I be and what line
or what thread can I find toconnect with this person in a
real way?
And when you set the stage inthat way, you find yourself
(24:41):
getting comfortable, disarmingthe conversation, disarming the
room in a way that you're ableto be more of yourself, that
you're able to be more ofyourself.
People are feeling morecomfortable being themselves and
the expressiveness starts toblend itself into the
conversation, to the interaction, and it starts to show up
naturally.
(25:02):
I will say, one of the ways thatwe fine tune that is through
some role-playing and I'll saylet me see you recite this line
for me, this business line, andwe have an important matter to
discuss.
Let me see you say that in a way, that one line, as if you were
really excited about something.
And so when I go to you and Isay, jay, we have an important
(25:26):
matter to discuss, it's exciting.
That's something there like oh,I want to know what this is
versus if it's something that'smore constructive feedback or
maybe there is a warning of somesort or some type of
consequence, then that looks alittle bit different.
You know, I have to say, john,we have an important matter to
discuss, you know, and it's justaligning what you say with how
(25:50):
you say it.
So it's kind of like a pathforward.
You set the stage by beingpresent, create that path of
connection and then think abouthow do I want this person or
these people to feel by the endof this conversation or by the
end of this presentation, whatit is, and lean into what that
looks like.
And that's where we start.
Jay Johnson (26:09):
I would say, lean into what that looks like and
that's where we start.
I would say let's body languageis such body language tone.
inflection is such an importantpart of our trust building, and
I really like how you tappedinto supporting people and
navigating their way to creatingvulnerability loops.
I mean essentially.
So I'm going to go back to aquestion on this before we
finish, about how do we know isenough to share or too much to
(26:32):
share, cause I've seen bothsides of that.
But I did want to stick withone other thing, and it was so
funny because, as you weretalking, it reminded me of a
faculty member who I had gone toa number of of their courses.
Actually, it was probably thenumber one faculty member that I
went to dry as a bone, butwicked, smart, I mean just
(26:56):
brilliant.
I loved the content, but therewas points in times that I felt
like I was going to fall asleepat nine 30 in the morning and
then something strange happened.
All right, another faculty whoI happened to be good friends
with was having a birthday party.
That faculty member was friendswith this faculty member.
Wow, and we happen to be at auh backyard barbecue with the
(27:20):
fire.
The dry, boring faculty membermay have been one of the
funniest people on the planet.
Yes, and like I'm looking andI'm, I'm in stitches the whole
night.
I'm crying, I'm laughing sohard and I'm looking and I'm
like who are you?
Yeah, and why are you notbringing?
(27:40):
this right into your classroom,yeah, and, and it was so
interesting and it was just thatit was that level of being
comfortable being yourself.
Yes, and that was what he said.
He was just like I just youknow it's it's a strange
audience, and so I know thatthere's people in our audience
here today, jay, that areprobably experiencing a little
(28:01):
bit of that.
Like I can't, I can't be myself, I can't bring that fireside
personality out into that spaceside personality out into that
space.
I got to imagine I've beenasked a lot of times you do get
nervous when you're speaking andat this point in time, for the
most part, no flashback to tidex2018 and they were like, jay,
(28:21):
you've got five minutes beforeyou're on.
I was like, oh, that's whatthat feels like.
Yes, I do.
I do still get nervous insomething.
Right, how do you manage yournerves?
Because there's, there's got tobe something along the way.
Whether it's, whether it'swicked, I do still get nervous
in something right.
Jay Harris (28:36):
How do you manage your nerves?
Jay Johnson (28:37):
Because there's got to be something along the way,
whether it's Wicked Broadway oreven a coaching.
How do you manage those nerves?
How do you pull back on that?
Jay Harris (28:51):
Yeah, that's a very real common human experience to
get nervous whenever there'ssomething on the line for you,
whether it's just to win youraudience over, or whether it's a
presentation to show progresson an initiative or a project
that you're working on.
Whenever there's something onthe line for us, even if it's
just our reputation, which is abig deal, nerves happen.
You know, and it's verypractical.
The first thing I do is Inotice, I do what I like to call
(29:12):
a body scan, is my heart'sracing or I start to feel that
(29:35):
anxiety.
It's very practical.
This is a very practical method.
It's not rocket science, but itis a little bit of behavioral
science and it's simply take adeep breath.
You got to ground yourself inthe moment and take that deep
breath.
And I tell people a real deepbreath, one from your diaphragm,
(29:56):
not one of those, okay, youknow, and you lock it all in
right there.
That's not a deep breath.
It's taking a deep breath,allowing your diaphragm to
contract and expand and reallystart to calm your nerves,
because what you're experiencingis your amygdala doing its
thing, that fight, flight or,you know, freeze response
(30:19):
happening, and the way to calmthat down is you've got to take
that deep breath in the momentand crown yourself.
And I tell people, if you'redelivering something in person
on your way up to the stage,find those opportunistic moments
for you to take that deepbreath.
If it's walking up to the stagebefore you, the mic cuts on or
you grab the mic or you getready to go, do that.
(30:41):
Or if it's right before you logon to that Zoom meeting, do
that.
Even if you're in a meeting, youopen a conversation, I say
create an opportunity to get theaudience involved right away.
So if I say you know, jay, Iappreciate you for bringing me
on today, I'm excited.
Now, tell me a little bit aboutwhere you're located, and you
know, tell me more about yourrole and position.
I want to understand that alittle bit about where you're
(31:03):
located, and you know, tell memore about your role and
position.
I want to understand that alittle bit more.
One, it gets you talking andinvolved.
Two, it gives me some time tobreathe and it gives me some
time to relax into theconversation.
So that deep breath isdefinitely one the thing I
recommend to everyone.
The second thing I wanted tomention yeah, you're going to
(31:23):
say something.
Jay Johnson (31:24):
No, I'm just.
I could not agree more withthat, you know, and especially
the diaphragm breath.
One of the other biologicalthings that that actually does
is it creates additional spacein and around the heart, it
relieves some of the pressureoff of that, which can actually
have a really powerful impact ofcalming the body down and
(31:44):
putting us back into theparasympathetic.
So awesome, that's how I havesomething to steal from you.
There you go, steal it, take it.
Jay Harris (31:52):
My own research.
So, no, that's good, but itsupports that idea of just
relaxing yourself and gettingback into the moment.
The second thing I was going tomention especially hearing the
story about your colleague isstorytelling.
Especially when you'redelivering data, numbers and
things that can sound put us tosleep at 9.30 in the morning,
(32:15):
even though we just woke up, weshould be excited is find a way
to incorporate storytelling and,whether it's a personal story
or a metaphor type of story thatyou can weave the data into to
make it interesting andpalatable for any audience.
I say is definitely gonna be oneof your I start to say one of
(32:40):
your best friends when it comesto delivering information,
especially dry data.
There's a study from the LondonBusiness School where they say
that people retain 65 to 70percent more information when
it's woven into stories, versus5 to 10 percent whenever it is
(33:01):
just dry data and numbers andreports.
And so I would say leveragestorytelling.
When your colleague was aroundthat fireside chat, it's because
he one felt more comfortable,but he's also just sharing
stories.
There's no rubric once again.
So I say, find thoseopportunities where you can
(33:22):
weave what you have to say intoa story that is relatable to
folks and to people of anyaudience.
I want to add a note to that, tosay In terms of you know, of
course you want to be thoughtfulabout the time that you spend
when you're sharing your story,but just again, be yourself as a
(33:43):
southerner.
We tell stories.
They can go on and on, and onand on, and I'm actually I'm
still telling a story from 10years ago.
I should be finished thisafternoon.
But, with that being said, oneof the things I like that we do
when we talk about storytellingis finding a way to be strategic
with your storytelling so thatit doesn't have to take forever
(34:05):
but it can be impactful andengaging and still win your
audience over and you get toimplement some of your own
personality, which naturallyshows up whenever you enter.
Weave a story into anyconversation.
So I would.
Those are the top two things Iwould say for the sake of our
conversation taking that deepbreath and leverage storytelling
(34:26):
where you can.
Jay Johnson (34:28):
Yeah, that's really powerful and storytelling is
one of those things really welldocumented in the andragogical
sciences about human learningand it's really something that
does it's like memory recallseven six times faster on things
where there's a visual component, and usually the story is what
creates the visual capacity forit, cause we imagine ourselves,
(34:51):
we see ourselves in the story sobeautifully stated.
All right.
So I want to ask this kind offinal question and I'm going to
context.
I'm going to put this intocontext because, with you doing
the kind of coaching that you'redoing for presence and brand,
you know, one of the things thatyou said earlier was about
(35:11):
reputation and you know we fearour reputation being damaged.
And, interestingly, there'sreally really good cognitive
neuroscience studies done onthis exact same thing and what
they kind of call it is a socialdeath.
All right, so we fear a socialdeath.
Nearly the same parts of thebrain light up exactly when we
(35:33):
are experiencing something likea social death.
And to clarify this, imagineyou're a junior lawyer walking
in and two senior partners in alaw firm just shred your
document and you shred yourbrief and all of a sudden you
feel this social death, thisanxiety that comes from it
(35:54):
because you're going to getkicked out of the tribe.
You failed, you let down yourelders, et cetera.
I mean, this goes back way waydeep into our human cognition
and biology.
Okay, so, whenever we want tostep into this this is where I'm
relating it to the question Iwanted to ask you Whenever we
step into vulnerability, we arerisking social death.
(36:17):
And if we know that the brainlights up the same ways when
we're worried or anxious aboutthe physical death, like an
actual, like biological death,how do we know when being too
open is too open, or how do weknow what's the right you know?
How do we I know, you knowwhere I'm going with this how do
(36:38):
we ensure that we're not overvulnerable but not holding so
much back that we're notcreating the connections that we
need to create?
Jay Harris (36:47):
Yeah, that's a really good question and really
quickly, I want to say twothings I thought about when you
talked to, when you wereexplaining this idea of a social
death, and how that works forus internally.
It's interesting.
As they say, we are our ownworst critics, so I tell people
this all the time.
I promise you you're an awesomeperson, but no one is thinking
(37:10):
about you more than you'rethinking about yourself.
Jay Johnson (37:12):
It's facts.
Jay Harris (37:13):
And because you are the one living in your own head,
and so people forget aboutthings more often than you
realize.
I recently thought aboutsomething that happened to me
years ago in grade school and Ithought this was yesterday and I
thought, oh, why did I do that?
No one's thinking about what Idid in the third grade but me.
(37:34):
So, number one, I'll start bysaying no one's thinking about
you as much as you're thinkingabout yourself, and so, as
important as our reputation isto us, a lot of times the stakes
aren't as high as we feel thatthey are.
However, as it pertains toknowing when you overshare or
(37:57):
when you need to share a bitmore, that lends itself back to
what I mentioned earlier aboutbeing present in the moment.
By being both, it allows you tobe both emotionally aware and
situationally aware.
It's one of those things wherewe have to get in the habit of
training and fine-tuningourselves to know if you have a
(38:19):
relationship with the people inthe room.
Rely on that.
You know their communicationstyle.
You know a little bit aboutwhere they the room.
Rely on that.
You know their communicationstyle.
You know a little bit aboutwhere they're from, or even just
from stories that they'veshared with you about maybe
television shows that they likeor pop culture.
You know a little bit aboutthem and so you have a degree of
insight about how you caninteract with that person and
(38:41):
types of things you can share.
Interact with that person andtypes of things you can share.
If you don't know the people,you want to pay attention to how
they're responding to thingsthat you've already said, maybe
in just your opening hello, myname is or thinking about what
you've heard them say in theroom.
Maybe you've walked in the rooma little bit before and just
kind of listened to some oftheir conversations.
(39:01):
So I have to say that while Ithink it's important to be
yourself and be vulnerable andnot to get too caught up in your
head about being judged, youalso want to pay attention to
what's happening in the room,because that informs you know
what types of conversationswould be appropriate for you
know where you are, and sothat's the headline answer I
(39:23):
would say is to one where youare, and so that's that's the
headline answer I would say isto one.
If you know the people,leverage your relationship with
them and what you know aboutthem already.
But to the other thing would berecognized in the room what
people are saying and howthey're responding to you and
how they're responding to eachother, and that will inform you
know how far can I go.
Jay Johnson (39:44):
Yeah, whenever I am , I like that.
No, I was just, I really likedthat.
Jay Harris (39:49):
Yeah, I was going to say that whenever I'm
facilitating in a room with agroup of people and I start by
asking them questions like youknow, what are your
communication?
What would you say is yourcommunication strength and what
would you say is yourcommunication challenge?
I want you to think about thisand I want you to share that
(40:12):
with me, share it with others.
But then I want you to, afteryou've shared what your
challenge is, just outright.
I want you to share what yourchallenge is, but using a
metaphor.
From this I start, and when Ihear people's metaphors, some
people might say oh well, youknow, my communication challenge
is you know, sometimes I gettoo caught up in my head
(40:37):
whenever I am, you know, tryingto present.
So it's kind of like a hamsteron a wheel that's going round
and round and round and that'swhat's happening to me.
Other people might say I getnervous and I basically think
(40:58):
about myself falling from acliff in the Grand Canyon and by
the time I get to the groundI'm going to be eaten by an
alligator.
So I start to pick up on thebreadth and the expansion of how
creative some people arethinking and just getting a
better, helping myself get thisarsenal of information from
(41:21):
these folks about okay, I'mstarting to understand how you
think creatively versus if Ijust come in and say, okay, I
want everyone to get up on theirfeet.
We're going to do some improv.
Right off the gate they're like, no thanks, that's not what I
do.
But if I'm able to position itin a way where they're giving me
real information but wrappingit in something that's visual, I
(41:42):
start to get an understandingof the way they think creatively
and then it gives me anopportunity to kind of build on
that.
That's brilliant.
Jay Johnson (41:53):
So trainers, coaches out there, don't just
jump into the improv Just jumpin.
Ask the questions that'll helpthem sort of step into it in a
really powerful way.
I love it.
Jay, I knew this conversationwas gonna be awesome and you
definitely delivered.
So if our audience wanted toget in touch with you, how would
they reach out to you?
Jay Harris (42:12):
Yeah, so I would say a few ways.
One I would love to connectwith, especially a lot of the
other coaches and facilitatorsand trainers, hr professionals
that are watching find me onLinkedIn and there you'll see my
full name, which is Javaris,and that's
J-A-V-I-R-I-S-H-A-R-I-S.
But also I'm going to providesome ways for people to connect
(42:35):
with me via email, because a lotof us face some of the same
challenges, some of the samequestions and a lot of times it
takes a peer or someone who'salready in that.
In the same, you've been tasked.
We want you to build a learningdevelopment program for VP plus
go.
Well, who are you going to talkto about that?
I want to be able to help youwith that, so you can connect
(42:58):
with me via email as well.
At the letter, jharris ataerial group A-R-I-E I e l
groupcom and we'll make surethat's in the show notes.
Jay Johnson (43:07):
Jay, I want to say thank you.
This has been an awesomeconversation, I would say, with
a fellow thespian.
But I am not of that level.
Uh, I can say that whensomebody's like, yeah, I did
improv once back in college, Ican say that, but I can't say
that to you.
But I've gotten to learn, butit is uh, I'll.
I'll say a, a fellow theaterenthusiast.
(43:27):
How's that?
I like that.
Jay Harris (43:29):
I like that.
I like that a lot.
Jay Johnson (43:31):
You have.
You have given some great ideasand some great tactics and I
really appreciate you taking thetime to be here with us on the
talent forge.
Jay Harris (43:37):
Of course, thank you so much Equally enjoyed our
conversation.
I knew I would also and justthank you so much for having me
had a great time.
Jay Johnson (43:47):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where, together, we are shaping
the future of training anddevelopment.
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