February 28, 2025 • 43 mins
Many veterans face challenges when transitioning from military service to civilian jobs. In this enlightening episode of The Talent Forge, Jason Anderson, a veteran with years of corporate experience, unpacks the complexities behind these transitions. He sheds light on the common pitfalls that cause many veterans to struggle in their new roles, particularly due to the different expectations and cultures between military and corporate environments.
Tune in to discover actionable steps L&D professionals and employers can take to create successful onboarding experiences for veterans. This episode isn’t just about showcasing the achievements of veterans; it’s about recognizing the complexities of their journeys and ensuring they have the tools necessary to thrive.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development, and
today I am joined by a specialguest, Jason Anderson.
Welcome to the show, Jason.
Jason Anderson (00:12):
Thank you very much, Jay.
It's really nice to be with youand your audience.
Jay Johnson (00:16):
I am excited for this conversation.
Number one is because we aretalking about veterans and I
want to say thank you to everyveteran, including you and any
of your team.
But thank you so much for thework that you do to keep our
country safe and for ensuringthe freedoms that we all enjoy.
To even be doing something likethis podcast, so it's amazing
(00:37):
to do that.
But let's get the audience achance to know you a little bit
better, jason, tell me yourstory How'd you get into this
L&D space and a little bit aboutwhat you're kind of focused on.
Jason Anderson (00:49):
Sounds good, I appreciate it.
I will tell you, just as thetop line.
I did not get into the L&Dspace intentionally.
It rather kind of happened as abunch of circumstances.
So let me tell you my storyreal quick and then that will
kind of back end into anexplanation of how this all came
about.
So I was in the Air Force for atotal of 20 years.
I retired in 2014.
(01:10):
I finished my last six years atservice at the Pentagon.
So at the Pentagon I was sellinga bunch of defense equipment
and hardware to Japan.
Big backstory there, but we'llkeep it simple for now.
But during that time, of course, I would frequently meet with
defense contractors you know thebigger kind of aerospace
(01:31):
defense companies trying to comethrough me to talk to Japan.
So I got very acquainted withthat industry and as I was
getting ready to leave theservice and move back to Wyoming
, I had a network of friends whosaid, hey, we think you'd be
really good for this role.
So I ended up taking a rolewith Rockwell Collins, which was
like a smaller aerospacedefense company, headquartered
(01:51):
at that time in Cedar Rapids,iowa.
It was about a $6 billionannual revenue company, so it
was small in that particularindustry when you look at the
bigs.
But man, I love that company.
It was run like a smallbusiness.
Actually, the CEO then is nowthe CEO of Boeing, so it just
had some outstanding leaders inthe company.
(02:13):
It was absolutely fantastic.
So within that businessdevelopment role, I did that for
a year and then they targetedme for a higher role.
So I ended up getting promotedup several levels to executive
and then my family and I wereexpatriated to Tokyo and I ended
up being the managing directorof Japan, korea, taiwan for a
(02:33):
nice four-year stint.
So I ended up after thatstaying with the company a total
of nine years.
So with that as a backdrop, youraudience may or may not know,
but there's a rather largestruggle with people leaving the
military and ending up findingsuccess in employment,
specifically the private sector.
So I'm here to say on paper, Idid great, right On paper.
(02:58):
You know, I had a great jobwith a great company, I was
getting paid really well, Ienjoyed my roles, I enjoyed my
teams.
But here's the unfortunatereality that kind of underpins
our whole conversation here.
I was not ready to perform inany of those roles at all with
my background in the military,and I know that you have talked
(03:20):
with a bunch of your otherguests that I've listened to,
about a Marshall Goldsmith.
What got you there is not goingto get you here, and this is
the ultimate example of how,even though you can be a super
capable military person in themilitary environment, the
private sector environment isvastly different.
(03:41):
So therefore, training we thinkis needed, kind of across the
board, industry agnostic, tohelp that service member or that
veteran workforce really beoptimized and flourish in their
role.
Jay Johnson (03:53):
So it's so interesting, you know, and
there's a lot to unpack there,jason, and again thank you for
giving us that background andfor the service I want to, you
know, point out.
So there's an interestingconversation we had just
recently on the Talent Forgewith somebody named Susan
Hensley and she had worked inthe L&D function for an
(04:14):
organization that generally theytargeted hiring veterans.
Now I know that that's not thecase in a lot of places and I
have heard a number of differentthings.
So my brother is a former well,he's a veteran of the US Army.
He was a ranger specialist andthis was many, many years ago
(04:37):
and when he came back heactually ended up starting his
own business and kind ofnavigating that forward with
with and without some differentstruggles.
So, like I recognize thatthere's some big challenges in
that space.
She focused on bringing inveterans, partially because of
structure and systems and beingable to kind of be that go
(05:00):
getter.
But also we talked a little bitabout some of the challenges of
like how it was to sort of makethat transition.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout it's really nice to have
a conversation with somebodythat goes even deeper on that
Like, what was that transitionlike for you from military life,
military sort of direction, tonow civilian, corporate, private
(05:25):
sector, and how did thattransition feel?
Jason Anderson (05:31):
Great question and I will kind of go back to.
I have to give you a little bitof background on the framework
whereby people are leaving themilitary and entering employment
generally, but mostly privatesector, say the numbers.
So, recognizing there's aproblem, the government created
a program or record called theTransition Assistance Program
and it implemented it in 1991.
(05:52):
What's kind of interestingabout that implementation is
they just did it.
So it's kind of like dunk,here's your program and then you
know, with a big kind ofgovernment entity like that,
what typically happens is itsets a market.
And then you know, with a bigkind of government entity like
that, what typically happens isit sets a market and then, of
course, people jump into themarket.
You got service providers, yougot interagency, different parts
of the government, you gothigher education institutions,
(06:13):
you got employers, communities,right, so they were kind of
given the framework from whichto kind of create services.
Now, in retrospect I will tellyou, having done lots of
research, because thepre-veteran journey started way
back in 2015.
So, as context there, we did abunch of research and then
developed programs, but it tookquite a while to kind of figure
(06:34):
out.
The actual problem is the setup.
So when we talk aboutframeworks, what ended up
happening is, I'd like yourviewers to kind of visualize two
circles kind of next to oneanother.
One circle is the militaryenvironment, the other circle is
the private sector environment.
And if you go back to that 1991program or record, what they
(06:55):
basically did is took acommercial model off the shelf,
which is essentially network,build a resume and do a great
interview and you're going toget a job, and then they kind of
added translate skills, right.
So with those four things,that's kind of become the
framework to go hey, militaryperson, this is what you need to
do in order to be successful inthe private sector.
(07:15):
So from our analysis standpoint, if you go back to those two
circles I'm having you visualize, it basically implies to the
service member that they'resimilar or substantially similar
.
And, moreover, what happens thenfrom a behavior standpoint is
the service member hears thefollowing messages hey, you're
really talented and capable,you're going to make six figures
(07:37):
.
People are waiting for you.
The second you drop your papersto hire you.
So when they hear those kindsof messages, it's really
confusing from a behaviorstandpoint because it really
means do I need to change at all?
And if I needed to change?
What do I need to do?
And there's no roadmapwhatsoever for that.
So what ends up happening froma practical standpoint is each
(07:59):
service member tries to createtheir own model, and you can
imagine I don't know if youraudience is aware, but 200,000
people leave the military everyyear, so that's 200,000 models,
of which everybody has their ownindividual take on what they
should do.
So you can imagine that'schaotic, right, and it all stems
from the fact that theenvironments were set up to be
(08:21):
substantially similar, which ledto this behavior that we're
talking about.
Jay Johnson (08:25):
Jason, as you were saying that, and I was
visualizing these two circlesand immediately when you said
it's translatable, I had thislike mental image of a circle
and then all of a sudden, thatother circle turned into a
square or a triangle orsomething else.
So when we think about likebecause and let's, I don't want
(08:47):
to stereotype, so, but one ofthe things that we do think
about when we think about themilitary is we think about
discipline, we think aboutprocess, we think about
camaraderie, we think aboutpassion and just sort of like
fortitude and resilience andadaptability and everything else
which, when we take those termsand we apply them into the
corporate world, they make a lotof sense.
(09:08):
But you're saying it sounds tome like you're saying that
there's more to it than that.
There's something underlyingthat, a set of behaviors that
maybe work or function inside ofservice and not necessarily
translate perfectly to theoutside world, even if those
terms are the same.
Help us understand that alittle deeper.
Jason Anderson (09:30):
Excellent.
Thank you for that.
So the segue to that is I wantto tell you how we're fixing the
problem and then we'll kind ofgo into that exact problem that
you brought up.
So where the current programrecord makes the service member
or implies that the systems aresimilar, what our program does
is make sure that they knowthey're drastically different
(09:50):
and, just to use a comparisonright, the three different
things we use as pillars areexistence, competition and the
need to make revenue.
So if you just do a simplecomparison of both of those
environments, they're arguablydiametrically opposed to one
another.
Environments.
They're arguably diametricallyopposed to one another.
So the way we explain this toservice members now who think
that the environments aresimilar, what we say is
(10:12):
basically jay, let's just say,you know, you were two years out
, or two years prior to leavingthe army, like your brother, and
I say hey, jay, guess what?
When you went into the army,they pulled you from the general
public, put you in a veryspecific operating environment
and they taught you how to thinkand make decisions in that very
(10:32):
specific environment.
Guess what, jay?
The private sector environmenthas completely different
parameters, based on what I wastelling you before competition,
existence, the need to makerevenue.
It requires completelydifferent thought models and
different behaviors.
Now there will be somecarryover, but we've assessed
that the carryover's about 40%max, so there's a 60% delta that
(10:55):
would require training to beoptimized for that.
Because when you kind of see thestatistics and I don't know if
your listeners are aware of it,but the stats been around since
a landmark study in 2014 byVetAdvisor and Syracuse
University that said 50% of thetransitioning service members
leave their first job within 12months and then 65% leave within
(11:16):
two years Huge turnover rates.
The reason why they're doingthat, going back to my
explanation, is if they thinkthat the environments are
substantially similar, they willthink they can seamlessly go
from one to the other, whichthey cannot, and what they end
up doing is not doing the duediligence to figure out what
industry and company they wantto go into.
So they pick the wrong industryand company and then, even if
(11:40):
they did pick the right industryand company, a la me, I'm not
sure how to perform in my role.
So there's actually quite a bitof dysfunction built into that
initial framework, because ifthe service member's confused or
not quite sure or is notoriented at all to the private
sector.
There's going to be someproblems in there that are just
kind of commonsensical.
(12:01):
Again, it's not the servicemember.
We are huge advocates,extremely educated, extremely
driven, all these differentthings but it was, if everyone
understands.
It was developed in themilitary environment for the
military environment.
It just makes sense that theyneed training in order to
channel that into a privatesector environment and we find
(12:22):
out, once they get training toorient them to that environment,
they do exceptionally well.
Jay Johnson (12:28):
This.
It makes so much intuitivesense.
I mean, like, even if we wereto take it out of the context of
the military, to kind of cointhe analogy here, sort of like
finish the thought, you know, tothe sales manager, to the sales
leader, and we expect thatsales manager or sales leader to
(12:57):
just walk into that position,perform admirably because you
were great at sales.
But it's a different mindset,it's a different skill set, it's
a different purpose, it's adifferent intention, it's a
different whole set of behaviors.
Different intention, it's adifferent whole set of behaviors
.
So, even in something like that,when you are in from a civilian
(13:17):
to a civilian, you know aindividual contributor to a
manager, I can see and and thankyou for bringing this up
because I do think that that's atotal gap in my own thinking,
let alone, you know, thethinking of an employer.
An employer is going to look atthis and say, well, they're
adaptable, they have all theseskills.
(13:37):
But, yeah, I can totally seethis.
So walk me through.
You're sharing with thatapplicant as they're going
through the process, thatveteran, you're sharing.
(13:58):
Hey, look, yeah, you've got 40%of the skill set for this job.
There's a 60% delta.
How do you essentially coachthem to better understand that
shift, that mindset shift, oreven that behavioral shift
that's needed.
Jason Anderson (14:06):
Perfect.
Let me take a tiny excursion totell you how we got to where we
are now.
So, going back to the earlystages of pre-veteran, we had to
figure out what the problem was, which we now know is the setup
, you know, the environmentalsetup, which then creates
thinking, decision-makingchallenges for the veteran
because they're not aware thatthe private sector is different
and need that training.
So leave that there.
(14:28):
There's an impact to theemployer too, right?
The employer has been toldcertain things about that
veteran employee, right, andwhen they're not performing at
that, they scratch their headsgoing, whoa, I was told
something completely different,you know.
So I want to explain that it'snot just the service member,
it's everything.
The service member touchesdownstream from that,
unfortunately, because weactually need to train the
(14:48):
service members.
So when we developed our firsttraining, what we wanted to do
is target people getting out ofthe military 18 months to three
years prior to that, because weknew that they had to make a
journey.
That is both mindset andorientation.
The private sector and thencareer exploration, because the
careers are different, even ifthe careers have similarities in
(15:10):
task or similarities that kindof feel similar.
The private sector is justtotally different operating
environment.
Let me give you a coupleexamples, like one a service
member.
I was a pilot, right.
So as a pilot, I couldn't givea rip.
Who made the airplane, who madethe radio?
Who made the transponder?
Who made whatever right?
(15:30):
I used it.
It was a tool.
Made the transponder, who madewhatever right?
I used it.
It was a tool.
And that's a mindset.
When you use a product as atool rather than understanding
the team that went into theproduct, the process that went
into the product, the supplychain, all the different kind of
contextual elements that makeit a business rather than just a
tool.
Do you know what I mean?
So when we started thistraining five years ago, we've
(15:53):
been deploying this individualtraining I was just telling you
about.
We went in with the thesis andthe thesis was proven to be true
.
So we've been executing thistraining for five years and have
very good insights now intowhat the gaps are that we just
talked about when the personleaves the military and goes
into the private sector.
The thing I was going to sharewith your audience while I
started off with hey, you knowI'm kind of new to learning and
(16:16):
development or talentdevelopment is because I've
always loved training, but thetraining we did for the
individual service member.
We understand now theconsequence if they don't get
that training before they leaveand they're already in an
employment environment.
Or you know, onboarding,pre-onboarding we're even
finding it be applicable toservice members or veteran
workforce, rather within twoyears, day to hire.
(16:38):
Why?
It's kind of like my situationwhere if I were to estimate how
long it took me to get up tospeed where I felt just
comfortable in the environment,I can say that now, right, it's
a thing.
It took me four years.
That's crazy that it took thatlong.
And think about all theopportunity.
Well, think about the stressthat I had to undergo because I
(16:59):
had to figure it out right,remember I told you that service
members leaving the militarycreate their own model.
Everybody, the veteranworkforce, is also creating
their own model to try to figureout what that private sector
environment's like and try todeploy tools.
Because they don't want to telltheir supervisor, they don't
want to tell their leader thatthey don't know what they're
(17:19):
doing.
And they don't know whatthey're doing because I remember
intensely as a businessdevelopment entry level
specialist, I kept telling mywife a year and I'm like I'm not
sure what I'm supposed to do.
No-transcript meaning howcompanies are organized, how
(18:00):
they make money and how the rolethey go into aids the
profit-making enterprise.
If you can give them thatframework, they go.
Oh that's it, and it justbecomes such an easier way to
bring your talents to bear inthe way the business wants you
to bring them to bear, not theway you think the business wants
to bring them to bear, if thatmakes sense.
Jay Johnson (18:22):
It does, and I can imagine how frustrating it would
be to be one year, two years,three years, four years into a
position and still not feel likeyou've actually got your
grounding and from a businessobjective.
One of the things that we talkabout on the show quite a bit is
the training function is tosupport the business objectives
(18:43):
and if it's not doing thatappropriately it's expensive.
It's expensive to have somebodythat's not up to speed within
90, 120, even 160 days.
It's expensive to the employeewho is pouring out emotional
(19:04):
resources, cognitive resourcesto try to find that fit, to try
to find that success.
So it is taxing on bothentities.
And it seems like what you'redoing with this workforce
readiness, workforce developmentis you're short-circuiting that
entire timeline and you'rereally getting somebody that's
(19:27):
you're doing it Now.
How does that work?
I want to get a littlelogistical here with you.
How does that work?
You're 18 months before they'releaving their deployment and I
think in a lot of cases do a lotof the vets know that they're
leaving their deployment in 18months?
Or are they, you know at thatpoint in time?
Because, not being military, Iwouldn't understand, I wouldn't
(19:50):
claim to have any understanding,but I do know.
At least a couple of the peoplethat I've talked to in those
spaces were like, yeah, I'm notsure if I'm going to continue,
I'm not sure if I'm going to dothis, I'm not sure if I'm here
and ultimately I don't want tosay it's a game time decision
for them.
At some point in time they makethat decision.
What does that decision processlook like?
Jason Anderson (20:23):
And how would a vet know to or you know future
vet know to?
Hey, maybe I should get intothis program.
Individual service member.
Getting them 18 months to threeyears is really like an
individual training programwhere we found them through
partnerships, like withassociations that have
constituencies that justrepresent that block of people,
and create partnerships withthem and then run them through
(20:45):
the program.
What I want to for today, though, the veteran workforce training
, is where I want to kind offocus my effort, because I want
to help the L&D folks out therewho want to help the P&L and
want to help performance withtheir employees, because I can
just tell you kind of employersat large are unaware this
(21:05):
problem exists at all.
They've been told right, and weall kind of know the disconnect
between TA and L&D, right.
I mean, ta wants to put peoplein seats, make sure they meet
their numbers.
L&d folks really want to helpthe productivity of the company,
right, so they're more tied tothe leaders.
So I want to focus on the L&Dfolks, because they might not be
(21:27):
recognizing the challenges thatthe service member has or the
veteran workforce the challengesthat the service member has or
the veteran workforce, forexample, when you bring someone
on and they haven't had thistraining that we're talking
about now.
Even if there is onboarding,that's more kind of a company
orientation here's our sites,here's our product line and
(21:50):
stuff like that.
They don't understand how thebusiness is generally organized,
how it functions, how it makesmoney, how the role they do
actually aids in thatprofit-making enterprise.
Because remember, as servicemembers like me just flying the
airplane, I didn't care how itworked, I didn't care about the
background.
You need to care about thebackground now.
You need to know where you fitinto the teams and stuff like
that to be effective.
And again, companies are justnot aware of this that we've
(22:12):
seen.
We haven't really seen thisproduct out there outside of
some like super high, like aBooz Allen or something like
that.
It's like 30, 35%.
You know veteran workforce aspart of their workforce.
Most are like high singledigits 7, 8% and they follow
federal guidelines if they'vegot federal contracts with the
government.
So if we focus on that and theyunderstand that they want to
(22:37):
help optimizing that veteranworkforce to flourish more.
And we talk a lot about leavingthe military and losing purpose
, right, losing my team and mytribe and stuff like that, what
really fixes that for the HRfolks that are listening is to
create a new company identityfor them that's meaningful to
them, meaning I know where I fitinto the organization, I know
(23:00):
what I'm doing has an impact andI know exactly what it does to
help the bottom line.
And when you kind of know that,you're like, oh, that's my
purpose right.
Another one that I'll kind ofdo as an example is in the
military.
I was a pilot.
Jay Johnson (23:14):
That's also before you jump into that.
That's also a great practicefor non-service people too.
So getting somebody to actuallyrecognize what value they bring
, how they're impacting both theend user but also the team
inside of place.
So I mean that is something totranslate, but it makes a lot of
sense of how important thatthat's important personified,
(23:38):
coming from one of those from aservice, you know, from a
veteran service environment, toan actual civil or corporate
environment.
Jason Anderson (23:46):
Let me give a few tools.
I know we're getting, we'regoing along on time here, but I
want to give a few tools to lookout so your L&D folks can look
at if you have a veteranworkforce and all.
So remember like I was a pilot,but at the end of the day,
every service member is ageneralist, meaning we do
whatever the unit needs at anygiven time.
(24:07):
So think about the consequencesto that.
Cognitively right.
What we've actually done iscreate heuristics that scream to
us that we're a generalist.
And then you take us andsupplant us into a private
sector environment whereeverything is very specifically
siloed into your role and youstart kind of wanting to do
other people's jobs and you kindof want to start kind of
(24:28):
driving other people's teams andstuff like that.
You have no idea you're doingit but you've never been trained
and no one's told you that andno one in the corporate world
has told you to look out forthat.
So that's just one example ofwhat they do.
One other example and that candisrupt teams.
(24:49):
One other example is when theytry to just try to figure out
their role.
Really what they're doing iswithout telling their boss that
they aren't really comfortabledoing what they're doing.
They're going to put a lot ofenergy into their job and the
business is going to look atthem and go, wow, they're
motivated, right?
Not knowing that what they'reall they're trying to do is
(25:09):
orient themselves in this crazyenvironment and they might knock
over some things and they might, you know, show some behaviors
that are a little bit.
You know.
It just makes sense.
This provides the context forwhat you're seeing and why and
it's just we're trying to makesure the businesses understand
you have a super capableemployee.
(25:30):
Once they're trained and theyfeel very familiar and
comfortable in that environment,they'll be a phenomenal
employee.
But there are going to be gapsand challenges and that is going
to turn into a dollar amountbecause, like what you were
talking about just a moment, jay, a moment ago, if you're not
comfortable and you stay theresix months, you're just going to
go right and you're going to goon to the next thing, so it's
(25:50):
going to become a cost in thatregard as well.
Jay Johnson (25:53):
So if I'm an L and D person in a business, Jason,
what are some of the questionsor conversations that I should
be having with some of myveteran workforce?
Jason Anderson (26:03):
If you were to just directly ask them how
comfortable do you feel doingyour job that simple?
Do you know who to askquestions to?
Do you understand how your rolehelps our company perform,
helps perform for the customer,helps deliver a product or
service?
I can almost universallyguarantee that they're going to
(26:24):
have problems answering thatquestion Just because, like I
mentioned before, we usedproducts.
We didn't create products anddeliver products.
We just use them as simpletools.
So again, it's not their fault.
Super smart and capable in thatenvironment, once they're
oriented to this new environment, go.
Oh, this makes a ton of sense.
I feel very comfortable, I canoperate much better, I can
(26:45):
operate much quicker, I'm muchmore efficient.
I can contribute because I knowhow to contribute.
So it's just, it's like havinga primer for understanding this
new environment instead ofhaving to figure it out for
yourself, which I think is hugeunderstanding this new
environment instead of having tofigure it out for yourself,
which I think is huge.
Jay Johnson (27:05):
Well, and I think that makes a lot of sense, and
the interesting thing is is Iwould ask any of our audience to
also put yourself in anempathetic standpoint, to think
about hey, if you had to now,all of a sudden, take the skill
sets that you have and applythem inside of the military,
what are things that youwouldn't be able to do or
wouldn't translate or be able tomanage?
(27:25):
And I think that that probablywill give them a little bit of
inspiration on huh, this isprobably a bigger issue.
So you brought up onboarding,and onboarding is obviously
something that, if I'm to beperfectly honest with you both,
for, quite frankly, onboardingsucks.
(27:47):
Most organizations don't do it.
Well, that's the reality.
Whether you're a service member, or whether you are somebody
who is coming into the job forthe first time, or whether
you've been in an industry, mostonboarding programs are
generally ineffective.
So if we're now thinking aboutthis in a more complex
environment of, hey, we've gotthese, we've acquired these
(28:09):
incredibly talented, highperformance potential, you know,
potential workforce, what aresome of the things that need to
happen early on to get thatlevel of comfortability or to
create at least the trust that Ican ask those questions or that
I feel confident in bringing,because obviously, from four
(28:32):
years in, there was some levelof confident, some level of
disconnect, of you feeling likeyou could go to your superior,
your manager, your supervisorand be like I don't know what
the hell I'm doing.
I need some guidance, like howdo we make that a comfortable
conversation?
Because you're right, it's nottheir fault and it's in many
(28:53):
cases.
I'm not even going to put theblame on a company owner or the
L&D team because it's a gap inunderstanding or awareness and
you're bringing visibility tothat.
So how do we navigate, creatingthe conditions for having more
comfortable conversations around?
Hey, we don't know what wedon't know.
Jason Anderson (29:14):
Great question.
So I agree with you.
Onboarding, we talk to a lot ofcompanies now.
A lot of companies havedownright almost abandoned it.
If it is there, it's not thatgood, and a lot of companies
we're just seeing kind of, youknow, discarding it or doing it
in a very lumpy manner.
Right, the really easiest wayto look at this is go, they're
(29:42):
moving from a militaryenvironment, super unique, into
a private sector environment.
So if there isn't an onboardingor the onboarding isn't
effective and doesn't addressthem specifically, they are
going to be disproportionatelyaffected by that.
For sure, right, rockwellCollins had an outstanding
onboarding program.
I still felt like I was in.
For sure, right, rockwellCollins had an outstanding
onboarding program.
(30:03):
I still felt like I was in adryer Right, I was just kind of
kind of floating around all overthe place because it was too
much information.
So what you got to get them isreally specific information to
orient them quickly and then putthem into onboarding, which is
why you know what we have is wespecialize in what I would call
micro training, right, becausewe've been doing it for five
(30:23):
years and we know exactly whatthe gaps are and how we can fill
them.
What we're doing now is we'reworking with companies before
like post-hire veterans.
We hold workshops that are twoto three hours long and we can
get a long way into the mindsetand private sector orientation
in that two to three hour longand we can get a long way into
the mindset and private sectororientation in that two to three
hour window.
And then at least when theyshow up to onboarding they go.
(30:45):
I have some idea of what'sgoing on here, right?
So that is a really good, easygap filler that gets them into
the same bucket as everyone else.
Actually, because they're not,even though people that are
non-military are going intoonboarding.
They're more familiar becausethey've not, even though people
that are non-military have aregoing into onboarding.
They're more familiar becausethey've been in and around the
(31:06):
private sector environment,unless you're coming right out
of high school or right out ofhigher ed, right, they just
there's.
There is a gap there justhaving some level of business
acumen for entry-level employeesanyway.
But what happens with themilitary folks?
Yes, some go to entry level butsome go to, you know, senior
individual contributor,intermediate individual
contributor, director.
I mean, it might be a titleonly, but they're considered a
(31:28):
very strong subject matterexpert for a very important
program or programs and theystill don't know how to quite
interact with the teams.
You know what I mean.
You could see where this is aproblem.
Let me I'll give you a greatexample.
We have a client it's anaerospace defense company and
they didn't know there was aproblem until we started kind of
talking to them and then whenwe gave them this lens of just a
(31:50):
few things I showed you,they're like oh, we're starting
to see this senior businessdevelopment individual right,
and he came from a veryimportant program within the
government and they put him in abusiness development position
First.
Business development is reallytough because military people
just the nature of the industryyou don't sell anything ever.
(32:12):
You can do relationship building, but there's a whole lot more
to BD than just relationshipbuilding.
So this poor guy struggled andhe just left the company right
in three months and he wasexpressing all these telltale
signs we tell you about justdiscomfort, disorientation, not
sure what to do, not who to ask,who to ask questions.
So I wanted to just show thatas an example.
(32:33):
It's real and if you startasking around it's a very
significant challenge but it canbe overcome pretty quick
because they are smart andcapable.
It's just they haven't beentold they're going in a new
environment and they haven'tbeen given a primer for how to
operate that effectively.
Jay Johnson (32:50):
It seems to me that you're well positioned, having
had a foot in the military andalso having had a foot and
experience in the private sector, to be able to kind of merge
this together.
Have you seen anything like aservice member to service member
type mentorship program orsomething for that ongoing
(33:14):
support or that ongoing learningright Like even beyond
onboarding or training, learningright Like even beyond
onboarding or training?
Are there any other things thatwe can be thinking about to
really kind of smooth thatpathway for success?
Jason Anderson (33:28):
It's a great question.
It's a complex question.
Remember, I go back to the 1991kind of framework that was set.
The results from that frameworkof the program or record has
not been good.
So you can imagine there's beena bunch of coaching businesses,
there's been a bunch of likementorship platforms and stuff
like that.
I'm a little conflicted on thatbecause, like what I told you
(33:49):
about going back 30, 40 years,everybody that's gone through
the service and to this day iscreating their own model.
So essentially we have 200,000per year mentors multiplied by
the number of years and they'veall had completely divergent
experiences.
So I don't know how much valuethere is in that.
(34:15):
To be honest, training whereyou can all become baselined in
what the private sector is, howit functions, how it makes money
, how you do that where, whatyou're going to do with your
role, that aids in that profitmaking there, thereby showing
purpose.
If we create, if we had thatbaseline man, if we had that
baseline, we would just be somuch better off because the
(34:35):
employer knows what to talk tothe veteran employee about,
mentors know what to talk about,because there's a consistent
framework that is really rootedin real private sector kind of
business focus rather than.
This was my personal experienceand it is valuable.
Don't get me wrong.
It's just you're going to ask10 people the same question.
You're going to get 10different answers.
Jay Johnson (34:57):
Yeah, so at what level?
And you had mentioned and Iwould just like to dig into this
a little bit more you had said,you know, in a two hour kind of
workshop or some kind of framelike that, you would be able to
help sort of navigate some ofthat divide.
What does that look like?
(35:17):
Like, what does that experiencelook like?
Is that really just kind of theum?
Is that kind of one of thosewhere it's like I don't want to
say just this is what to expect?
Like, where does that go, uh,in terms of kind of bringing
everybody and getting them onthe same page?
Jason Anderson (35:37):
Yep, and I appreciate you, jay, because
you're a brain guy, right?
I mean, I've listened to a fewof your things and I love your.
T plus F equals B, right?
So thoughts plus, I think,feelings equals behaviors.
Okay, so let me get right toyour question.
So there needs to be twodifferent types of training that
(35:59):
take place.
There needs to be what I wouldcall more or less an
intervention, where it's youneed this training, right, but
as you level, they're going tobe processing through this, but
that still gets them from a.
I have no idea what I'm doingto.
(36:26):
I know what my target is now,right, I know what.
I know what this environment is, even if I'm not comfortable in
it yet.
So that first two to three hourworkshop does that.
And then we have ongoingtraining on a quarterly basis in
order to reinforce these things.
It has more exercises becauseat the end of the day, I have to
.
The training has to get you tobegin first understanding
(36:48):
there's a new environment, soself-awareness.
And then the next piece is howdo I operate in this environment
?
And we use how you fit intoyour role in the organization to
operate in that environment,because then that opens up
aperture into?
What business processes am Igoing to be participating in?
What do I do on an activity ona daily basis, weekly basis,
monthly basis?
How does this flow into theannual operating plan, the
(37:11):
strategic and financial plan,gate processes, gate reviews,
right.
And once you know what you'redoing and how that aids in the
profit making with the businessprocess side, it's just like oh,
I have context, you know, it'sjust it feels so much better
because you're like I know whatI'm doing.
Jay Johnson (37:29):
This is great, you know.
So this is incredible, jason,and I really applaud you for
both the tenacity to kind ofdiscover this major gap quite
frankly I mean absolutely majorgap and to really recognize the
fact that you know when you getsomebody out there like Gallup,
looking at the you knowpromotional resistance, that
(37:52):
happens.
You know 50% of people promotedare seen as underperforming
within 50,.
You know within 18 months ofbeing promoted, underperforming
within 50,.
You know within 18 months ofbeing promoted.
And to hear that there is someof that same kind of concept
going on because of a lack ofunderstanding of those two
different worlds or the gapsbetween those two different
(38:12):
worlds, it must have really beenrewarding for you to kind of
get that aha moment.
Can you talk to me just alittle bit?
What was that like when youwere like, holy, this is
something that we can actuallyaddress, this is something that
we can make lives and businessesbetter by, you know, really
understanding this.
What was that moment like foryou?
Jason Anderson (38:35):
So it has been a moment long in the timeline,
right, because the first ahamoment?
It's been a series of ahamoments.
The first was really figuringout what the problem was, eureka
, you know, I figured it outmore or less in 2017, 2018, when
I was side hustling pre-veteranwith approval from my company,
by the way.
Then the next aha moment iswhen we actually developed a
(38:59):
courseware, right, and it workedand people really enjoyed it
and got a lot out of it.
But now that we understand theproblem and really how to
optimize people, no matter wherethey are, whether they're
getting out or already in aworkforce we know they need this
training, 100% right.
But what we're convinced of isthat the market has been set a
(39:21):
certain way, which means serviceor veteran employees don't know
they need this, so theystruggle.
Companies don't know they needthis, so they struggle.
So, as you can imagine, it'sequal parts, great opportunity
and great challenge, right?
A great opportunity is if wecan talk to your listeners and
they go.
That makes sense.
I want to try a free demo andwe're like sounds good, let's do
(39:44):
it.
Let's do a two to three hourworkshop and demo it with your
leaders, but once we start kindof getting people to understand
the problem and see the telltalesigns and then understand the
implications, both financial andfrom a human resources
standpoint.
We know that there's going tobe business there and impact the
individual in the business,both financial and from a human
resources standpoint.
We know that there's going tobe business there and impact the
individual in the businessright, but they just don't know
(40:05):
it's a problem yet.
So you could see greatopportunity.
But then there's greatchallenge because it's a
disruptor.
It is a completely disruptivebut very necessary training
program.
Well, jason, let's find out.
(40:32):
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how would
they do so?
Or, as you navigate on thewebsite, you'll see veteran
workforce training.
There's options in there tocontact us or even set up a demo
or set up a discovery call todo a demo.
We'd love to talk with yourlisteners in any industry.
We can kind of tell them thetelltale signs of what to look
(41:03):
for and then have a really easy,cost-effective solution.
Jay Johnson (41:04):
That's just going to make things work out better
for their business and betterfor their veteran employee
workforce.
So, audience, if you are in anorganization that is working or
hiring veterans, this is a greatresource and a great
opportunity to really get abetter understanding of how to
create the conditions forsuccess.
And I want to say thank you,jason, not only for your service
, but for the continuation ofsupporting that population and
(41:29):
for coming here and sharing thisinsight.
This is really really brilliantand, honestly, it's just
something that I don't think alot of people would naturally
think about, and you're reallydoing a nice job of surfacing
this and empowering both yourparticipants and your trainings,
but also the businesses andbetter understanding what this
gap is.
Jason Anderson (41:49):
So thank you for being here with us today,
really appreciate you letting metalk to you and your audience,
Jay.
Thank you so much.
Jay Johnson (41:56):
Well, and thank you , audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we're shaping the future
of training and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development, and
today I am joined by a specialguest, Jason Anderson.
Welcome to the show, Jason.
Jason Anderson (00:12):
Thank you very much, Jay.
It's really nice to be with youand your audience.
Jay Johnson (00:16):
I am excited for this conversation.
Number one is because we aretalking about veterans and I
want to say thank you to everyveteran, including you and any
of your team.
But thank you so much for thework that you do to keep our
country safe and for ensuringthe freedoms that we all enjoy.
To even be doing something likethis podcast, so it's amazing
(00:37):
to do that.
But let's get the audience achance to know you a little bit
better, jason, tell me yourstory How'd you get into this
L&D space and a little bit aboutwhat you're kind of focused on.
Jason Anderson (00:49):
Sounds good, I appreciate it.
I will tell you, just as thetop line.
I did not get into the L&Dspace intentionally.
It rather kind of happened as abunch of circumstances.
So let me tell you my storyreal quick and then that will
kind of back end into anexplanation of how this all came
about.
So I was in the Air Force for atotal of 20 years.
I retired in 2014.
(01:10):
I finished my last six years atservice at the Pentagon.
So at the Pentagon I was sellinga bunch of defense equipment
and hardware to Japan.
Big backstory there, but we'llkeep it simple for now.
But during that time, of course, I would frequently meet with
defense contractors you know thebigger kind of aerospace
(01:31):
defense companies trying to comethrough me to talk to Japan.
So I got very acquainted withthat industry and as I was
getting ready to leave theservice and move back to Wyoming
, I had a network of friends whosaid, hey, we think you'd be
really good for this role.
So I ended up taking a rolewith Rockwell Collins, which was
like a smaller aerospacedefense company, headquartered
(01:51):
at that time in Cedar Rapids,iowa.
It was about a $6 billionannual revenue company, so it
was small in that particularindustry when you look at the
bigs.
But man, I love that company.
It was run like a smallbusiness.
Actually, the CEO then is nowthe CEO of Boeing, so it just
had some outstanding leaders inthe company.
(02:13):
It was absolutely fantastic.
So within that businessdevelopment role, I did that for
a year and then they targetedme for a higher role.
So I ended up getting promotedup several levels to executive
and then my family and I wereexpatriated to Tokyo and I ended
up being the managing directorof Japan, korea, taiwan for a
(02:33):
nice four-year stint.
So I ended up after thatstaying with the company a total
of nine years.
So with that as a backdrop, youraudience may or may not know,
but there's a rather largestruggle with people leaving the
military and ending up findingsuccess in employment,
specifically the private sector.
So I'm here to say on paper, Idid great, right On paper.
(02:58):
You know, I had a great jobwith a great company, I was
getting paid really well, Ienjoyed my roles, I enjoyed my
teams.
But here's the unfortunatereality that kind of underpins
our whole conversation here.
I was not ready to perform inany of those roles at all with
my background in the military,and I know that you have talked
(03:20):
with a bunch of your otherguests that I've listened to,
about a Marshall Goldsmith.
What got you there is not goingto get you here, and this is
the ultimate example of how,even though you can be a super
capable military person in themilitary environment, the
private sector environment isvastly different.
(03:41):
So therefore, training we thinkis needed, kind of across the
board, industry agnostic, tohelp that service member or that
veteran workforce really beoptimized and flourish in their
role.
Jay Johnson (03:53):
So it's so interesting, you know, and
there's a lot to unpack there,jason, and again thank you for
giving us that background andfor the service I want to, you
know, point out.
So there's an interestingconversation we had just
recently on the Talent Forgewith somebody named Susan
Hensley and she had worked inthe L&D function for an
(04:14):
organization that generally theytargeted hiring veterans.
Now I know that that's not thecase in a lot of places and I
have heard a number of differentthings.
So my brother is a former well,he's a veteran of the US Army.
He was a ranger specialist andthis was many, many years ago
(04:37):
and when he came back heactually ended up starting his
own business and kind ofnavigating that forward with
with and without some differentstruggles.
So, like I recognize thatthere's some big challenges in
that space.
She focused on bringing inveterans, partially because of
structure and systems and beingable to kind of be that go
(05:00):
getter.
But also we talked a little bitabout some of the challenges of
like how it was to sort of makethat transition.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout it's really nice to have
a conversation with somebodythat goes even deeper on that
Like, what was that transitionlike for you from military life,
military sort of direction, tonow civilian, corporate, private
(05:25):
sector, and how did thattransition feel?
Jason Anderson (05:31):
Great question and I will kind of go back to.
I have to give you a little bitof background on the framework
whereby people are leaving themilitary and entering employment
generally, but mostly privatesector, say the numbers.
So, recognizing there's aproblem, the government created
a program or record called theTransition Assistance Program
and it implemented it in 1991.
(05:52):
What's kind of interestingabout that implementation is
they just did it.
So it's kind of like dunk,here's your program and then you
know, with a big kind ofgovernment entity like that,
what typically happens is itsets a market.
And then you know, with a bigkind of government entity like
that, what typically happens isit sets a market and then, of
course, people jump into themarket.
You got service providers, yougot interagency, different parts
of the government, you gothigher education institutions,
(06:13):
you got employers, communities,right, so they were kind of
given the framework from whichto kind of create services.
Now, in retrospect I will tellyou, having done lots of
research, because thepre-veteran journey started way
back in 2015.
So, as context there, we did abunch of research and then
developed programs, but it tookquite a while to kind of figure
(06:34):
out.
The actual problem is the setup.
So when we talk aboutframeworks, what ended up
happening is, I'd like yourviewers to kind of visualize two
circles kind of next to oneanother.
One circle is the militaryenvironment, the other circle is
the private sector environment.
And if you go back to that 1991program or record, what they
(06:55):
basically did is took acommercial model off the shelf,
which is essentially network,build a resume and do a great
interview and you're going toget a job, and then they kind of
added translate skills, right.
So with those four things,that's kind of become the
framework to go hey, militaryperson, this is what you need to
do in order to be successful inthe private sector.
(07:15):
So from our analysis standpoint, if you go back to those two
circles I'm having you visualize, it basically implies to the
service member that they'resimilar or substantially similar
.
And, moreover, what happens thenfrom a behavior standpoint is
the service member hears thefollowing messages hey, you're
really talented and capable,you're going to make six figures
(07:37):
.
People are waiting for you.
The second you drop your papersto hire you.
So when they hear those kindsof messages, it's really
confusing from a behaviorstandpoint because it really
means do I need to change at all?
And if I needed to change?
What do I need to do?
And there's no roadmapwhatsoever for that.
So what ends up happening froma practical standpoint is each
(07:59):
service member tries to createtheir own model, and you can
imagine I don't know if youraudience is aware, but 200,000
people leave the military everyyear, so that's 200,000 models,
of which everybody has their ownindividual take on what they
should do.
So you can imagine that'schaotic, right, and it all stems
from the fact that theenvironments were set up to be
(08:21):
substantially similar, which ledto this behavior that we're
talking about.
Jay Johnson (08:25):
Jason, as you were saying that, and I was
visualizing these two circlesand immediately when you said
it's translatable, I had thislike mental image of a circle
and then all of a sudden, thatother circle turned into a
square or a triangle orsomething else.
So when we think about likebecause and let's, I don't want
(08:47):
to stereotype, so, but one ofthe things that we do think
about when we think about themilitary is we think about
discipline, we think aboutprocess, we think about
camaraderie, we think aboutpassion and just sort of like
fortitude and resilience andadaptability and everything else
which, when we take those termsand we apply them into the
corporate world, they make a lotof sense.
(09:08):
But you're saying it sounds tome like you're saying that
there's more to it than that.
There's something underlyingthat, a set of behaviors that
maybe work or function inside ofservice and not necessarily
translate perfectly to theoutside world, even if those
terms are the same.
Help us understand that alittle deeper.
Jason Anderson (09:30):
Excellent.
Thank you for that.
So the segue to that is I wantto tell you how we're fixing the
problem and then we'll kind ofgo into that exact problem that
you brought up.
So where the current programrecord makes the service member
or implies that the systems aresimilar, what our program does
is make sure that they knowthey're drastically different
(09:50):
and, just to use a comparisonright, the three different
things we use as pillars areexistence, competition and the
need to make revenue.
So if you just do a simplecomparison of both of those
environments, they're arguablydiametrically opposed to one
another.
Environments.
They're arguably diametricallyopposed to one another.
So the way we explain this toservice members now who think
that the environments aresimilar, what we say is
(10:12):
basically jay, let's just say,you know, you were two years out
, or two years prior to leavingthe army, like your brother, and
I say hey, jay, guess what?
When you went into the army,they pulled you from the general
public, put you in a veryspecific operating environment
and they taught you how to thinkand make decisions in that very
(10:32):
specific environment.
Guess what, jay?
The private sector environmenthas completely different
parameters, based on what I wastelling you before competition,
existence, the need to makerevenue.
It requires completelydifferent thought models and
different behaviors.
Now there will be somecarryover, but we've assessed
that the carryover's about 40%max, so there's a 60% delta that
(10:55):
would require training to beoptimized for that.
Because when you kind of see thestatistics and I don't know if
your listeners are aware of it,but the stats been around since
a landmark study in 2014 byVetAdvisor and Syracuse
University that said 50% of thetransitioning service members
leave their first job within 12months and then 65% leave within
(11:16):
two years Huge turnover rates.
The reason why they're doingthat, going back to my
explanation, is if they thinkthat the environments are
substantially similar, they willthink they can seamlessly go
from one to the other, whichthey cannot, and what they end
up doing is not doing the duediligence to figure out what
industry and company they wantto go into.
So they pick the wrong industryand company and then, even if
(11:40):
they did pick the right industryand company, a la me, I'm not
sure how to perform in my role.
So there's actually quite a bitof dysfunction built into that
initial framework, because ifthe service member's confused or
not quite sure or is notoriented at all to the private
sector.
There's going to be someproblems in there that are just
kind of commonsensical.
(12:01):
Again, it's not the servicemember.
We are huge advocates,extremely educated, extremely
driven, all these differentthings but it was, if everyone
understands.
It was developed in themilitary environment for the
military environment.
It just makes sense that theyneed training in order to
channel that into a privatesector environment and we find
(12:22):
out, once they get training toorient them to that environment,
they do exceptionally well.
Jay Johnson (12:28):
This.
It makes so much intuitivesense.
I mean, like, even if we wereto take it out of the context of
the military, to kind of cointhe analogy here, sort of like
finish the thought, you know, tothe sales manager, to the sales
leader, and we expect thatsales manager or sales leader to
(12:57):
just walk into that position,perform admirably because you
were great at sales.
But it's a different mindset,it's a different skill set, it's
a different purpose, it's adifferent intention, it's a
different whole set of behaviors.
Different intention, it's adifferent whole set of behaviors
.
So, even in something like that,when you are in from a civilian
(13:17):
to a civilian, you know aindividual contributor to a
manager, I can see and and thankyou for bringing this up
because I do think that that's atotal gap in my own thinking,
let alone, you know, thethinking of an employer.
An employer is going to look atthis and say, well, they're
adaptable, they have all theseskills.
(13:37):
But, yeah, I can totally seethis.
So walk me through.
You're sharing with thatapplicant as they're going
through the process, thatveteran, you're sharing.
(13:58):
Hey, look, yeah, you've got 40%of the skill set for this job.
There's a 60% delta.
How do you essentially coachthem to better understand that
shift, that mindset shift, oreven that behavioral shift
that's needed.
Jason Anderson (14:06):
Perfect.
Let me take a tiny excursion totell you how we got to where we
are now.
So, going back to the earlystages of pre-veteran, we had to
figure out what the problem was, which we now know is the setup
, you know, the environmentalsetup, which then creates
thinking, decision-makingchallenges for the veteran
because they're not aware thatthe private sector is different
and need that training.
So leave that there.
(14:28):
There's an impact to theemployer too, right?
The employer has been toldcertain things about that
veteran employee, right, andwhen they're not performing at
that, they scratch their headsgoing, whoa, I was told
something completely different,you know.
So I want to explain that it'snot just the service member,
it's everything.
The service member touchesdownstream from that,
unfortunately, because weactually need to train the
(14:48):
service members.
So when we developed our firsttraining, what we wanted to do
is target people getting out ofthe military 18 months to three
years prior to that, because weknew that they had to make a
journey.
That is both mindset andorientation.
The private sector and thencareer exploration, because the
careers are different, even ifthe careers have similarities in
(15:10):
task or similarities that kindof feel similar.
The private sector is justtotally different operating
environment.
Let me give you a coupleexamples, like one a service
member.
I was a pilot, right.
So as a pilot, I couldn't givea rip.
Who made the airplane, who madethe radio?
Who made the transponder?
Who made whatever right?
(15:30):
I used it.
It was a tool.
Made the transponder, who madewhatever right?
I used it.
It was a tool.
And that's a mindset.
When you use a product as atool rather than understanding
the team that went into theproduct, the process that went
into the product, the supplychain, all the different kind of
contextual elements that makeit a business rather than just a
tool.
Do you know what I mean?
So when we started thistraining five years ago, we've
(15:53):
been deploying this individualtraining I was just telling you
about.
We went in with the thesis andthe thesis was proven to be true
.
So we've been executing thistraining for five years and have
very good insights now intowhat the gaps are that we just
talked about when the personleaves the military and goes
into the private sector.
The thing I was going to sharewith your audience while I
started off with hey, you knowI'm kind of new to learning and
(16:16):
development or talentdevelopment is because I've
always loved training, but thetraining we did for the
individual service member.
We understand now theconsequence if they don't get
that training before they leaveand they're already in an
employment environment.
Or you know, onboarding,pre-onboarding we're even
finding it be applicable toservice members or veteran
workforce, rather within twoyears, day to hire.
(16:38):
Why?
It's kind of like my situationwhere if I were to estimate how
long it took me to get up tospeed where I felt just
comfortable in the environment,I can say that now, right, it's
a thing.
It took me four years.
That's crazy that it took thatlong.
And think about all theopportunity.
Well, think about the stressthat I had to undergo because I
(16:59):
had to figure it out right,remember I told you that service
members leaving the militarycreate their own model.
Everybody, the veteranworkforce, is also creating
their own model to try to figureout what that private sector
environment's like and try todeploy tools.
Because they don't want to telltheir supervisor, they don't
want to tell their leader thatthey don't know what they're
(17:19):
doing.
And they don't know whatthey're doing because I remember
intensely as a businessdevelopment entry level
specialist, I kept telling mywife a year and I'm like I'm not
sure what I'm supposed to do.
No-transcript meaning howcompanies are organized, how
(18:00):
they make money and how the rolethey go into aids the
profit-making enterprise.
If you can give them thatframework, they go.
Oh that's it, and it justbecomes such an easier way to
bring your talents to bear inthe way the business wants you
to bring them to bear, not theway you think the business wants
to bring them to bear, if thatmakes sense.
Jay Johnson (18:22):
It does, and I can imagine how frustrating it would
be to be one year, two years,three years, four years into a
position and still not feel likeyou've actually got your
grounding and from a businessobjective.
One of the things that we talkabout on the show quite a bit is
the training function is tosupport the business objectives
(18:43):
and if it's not doing thatappropriately it's expensive.
It's expensive to have somebodythat's not up to speed within
90, 120, even 160 days.
It's expensive to the employeewho is pouring out emotional
(19:04):
resources, cognitive resourcesto try to find that fit, to try
to find that success.
So it is taxing on bothentities.
And it seems like what you'redoing with this workforce
readiness, workforce developmentis you're short-circuiting that
entire timeline and you'rereally getting somebody that's
(19:27):
you're doing it Now.
How does that work?
I want to get a littlelogistical here with you.
How does that work?
You're 18 months before they'releaving their deployment and I
think in a lot of cases do a lotof the vets know that they're
leaving their deployment in 18months?
Or are they, you know at thatpoint in time?
Because, not being military, Iwouldn't understand, I wouldn't
(19:50):
claim to have any understanding,but I do know.
At least a couple of the peoplethat I've talked to in those
spaces were like, yeah, I'm notsure if I'm going to continue,
I'm not sure if I'm going to dothis, I'm not sure if I'm here
and ultimately I don't want tosay it's a game time decision
for them.
At some point in time they makethat decision.
What does that decision processlook like?
Jason Anderson (20:23):
And how would a vet know to or you know future
vet know to?
Hey, maybe I should get intothis program.
Individual service member.
Getting them 18 months to threeyears is really like an
individual training programwhere we found them through
partnerships, like withassociations that have
constituencies that justrepresent that block of people,
and create partnerships withthem and then run them through
(20:45):
the program.
What I want to for today, though, the veteran workforce training
, is where I want to kind offocus my effort, because I want
to help the L&D folks out therewho want to help the P&L and
want to help performance withtheir employees, because I can
just tell you kind of employersat large are unaware this
(21:05):
problem exists at all.
They've been told right, and weall kind of know the disconnect
between TA and L&D, right.
I mean, ta wants to put peoplein seats, make sure they meet
their numbers.
L&d folks really want to helpthe productivity of the company,
right, so they're more tied tothe leaders.
So I want to focus on the L&Dfolks, because they might not be
(21:27):
recognizing the challenges thatthe service member has or the
veteran workforce the challengesthat the service member has or
the veteran workforce, forexample, when you bring someone
on and they haven't had thistraining that we're talking
about now.
Even if there is onboarding,that's more kind of a company
orientation here's our sites,here's our product line and
(21:50):
stuff like that.
They don't understand how thebusiness is generally organized,
how it functions, how it makesmoney, how the role they do
actually aids in thatprofit-making enterprise.
Because remember, as servicemembers like me just flying the
airplane, I didn't care how itworked, I didn't care about the
background.
You need to care about thebackground now.
You need to know where you fitinto the teams and stuff like
that to be effective.
And again, companies are justnot aware of this that we've
(22:12):
seen.
We haven't really seen thisproduct out there outside of
some like super high, like aBooz Allen or something like
that.
It's like 30, 35%.
You know veteran workforce aspart of their workforce.
Most are like high singledigits 7, 8% and they follow
federal guidelines if they'vegot federal contracts with the
government.
So if we focus on that and theyunderstand that they want to
(22:37):
help optimizing that veteranworkforce to flourish more.
And we talk a lot about leavingthe military and losing purpose
, right, losing my team and mytribe and stuff like that, what
really fixes that for the HRfolks that are listening is to
create a new company identityfor them that's meaningful to
them, meaning I know where I fitinto the organization, I know
(23:00):
what I'm doing has an impact andI know exactly what it does to
help the bottom line.
And when you kind of know that,you're like, oh, that's my
purpose right.
Another one that I'll kind ofdo as an example is in the
military.
I was a pilot.
Jay Johnson (23:14):
That's also before you jump into that.
That's also a great practicefor non-service people too.
So getting somebody to actuallyrecognize what value they bring
, how they're impacting both theend user but also the team
inside of place.
So I mean that is something totranslate, but it makes a lot of
sense of how important thatthat's important personified,
(23:38):
coming from one of those from aservice, you know, from a
veteran service environment, toan actual civil or corporate
environment.
Jason Anderson (23:46):
Let me give a few tools.
I know we're getting, we'regoing along on time here, but I
want to give a few tools to lookout so your L&D folks can look
at if you have a veteranworkforce and all.
So remember like I was a pilot,but at the end of the day,
every service member is ageneralist, meaning we do
whatever the unit needs at anygiven time.
(24:07):
So think about the consequencesto that.
Cognitively right.
What we've actually done iscreate heuristics that scream to
us that we're a generalist.
And then you take us andsupplant us into a private
sector environment whereeverything is very specifically
siloed into your role and youstart kind of wanting to do
other people's jobs and you kindof want to start kind of
(24:28):
driving other people's teams andstuff like that.
You have no idea you're doingit but you've never been trained
and no one's told you that andno one in the corporate world
has told you to look out forthat.
So that's just one example ofwhat they do.
One other example and that candisrupt teams.
(24:49):
One other example is when theytry to just try to figure out
their role.
Really what they're doing iswithout telling their boss that
they aren't really comfortabledoing what they're doing.
They're going to put a lot ofenergy into their job and the
business is going to look atthem and go, wow, they're
motivated, right?
Not knowing that what they'reall they're trying to do is
(25:09):
orient themselves in this crazyenvironment and they might knock
over some things and they might, you know, show some behaviors
that are a little bit.
You know.
It just makes sense.
This provides the context forwhat you're seeing and why and
it's just we're trying to makesure the businesses understand
you have a super capableemployee.
(25:30):
Once they're trained and theyfeel very familiar and
comfortable in that environment,they'll be a phenomenal
employee.
But there are going to be gapsand challenges and that is going
to turn into a dollar amountbecause, like what you were
talking about just a moment, jay, a moment ago, if you're not
comfortable and you stay theresix months, you're just going to
go right and you're going to goon to the next thing, so it's
(25:50):
going to become a cost in thatregard as well.
Jay Johnson (25:53):
So if I'm an L and D person in a business, Jason,
what are some of the questionsor conversations that I should
be having with some of myveteran workforce?
Jason Anderson (26:03):
If you were to just directly ask them how
comfortable do you feel doingyour job that simple?
Do you know who to askquestions to?
Do you understand how your rolehelps our company perform,
helps perform for the customer,helps deliver a product or
service?
I can almost universallyguarantee that they're going to
(26:24):
have problems answering thatquestion Just because, like I
mentioned before, we usedproducts.
We didn't create products anddeliver products.
We just use them as simpletools.
So again, it's not their fault.
Super smart and capable in thatenvironment, once they're
oriented to this new environment, go.
Oh, this makes a ton of sense.
I feel very comfortable, I canoperate much better, I can
(26:45):
operate much quicker, I'm muchmore efficient.
I can contribute because I knowhow to contribute.
So it's just, it's like havinga primer for understanding this
new environment instead ofhaving to figure it out for
yourself, which I think is hugeunderstanding this new
environment instead of having tofigure it out for yourself,
which I think is huge.
Jay Johnson (27:05):
Well, and I think that makes a lot of sense, and
the interesting thing is is Iwould ask any of our audience to
also put yourself in anempathetic standpoint, to think
about hey, if you had to now,all of a sudden, take the skill
sets that you have and applythem inside of the military,
what are things that youwouldn't be able to do or
wouldn't translate or be able tomanage?
(27:25):
And I think that that probablywill give them a little bit of
inspiration on huh, this isprobably a bigger issue.
So you brought up onboarding,and onboarding is obviously
something that, if I'm to beperfectly honest with you both,
for, quite frankly, onboardingsucks.
(27:47):
Most organizations don't do it.
Well, that's the reality.
Whether you're a service member, or whether you are somebody
who is coming into the job forthe first time, or whether
you've been in an industry, mostonboarding programs are
generally ineffective.
So if we're now thinking aboutthis in a more complex
environment of, hey, we've gotthese, we've acquired these
(28:09):
incredibly talented, highperformance potential, you know,
potential workforce, what aresome of the things that need to
happen early on to get thatlevel of comfortability or to
create at least the trust that Ican ask those questions or that
I feel confident in bringing,because obviously, from four
(28:32):
years in, there was some levelof confident, some level of
disconnect, of you feeling likeyou could go to your superior,
your manager, your supervisorand be like I don't know what
the hell I'm doing.
I need some guidance, like howdo we make that a comfortable
conversation?
Because you're right, it's nottheir fault and it's in many
(28:53):
cases.
I'm not even going to put theblame on a company owner or the
L&D team because it's a gap inunderstanding or awareness and
you're bringing visibility tothat.
So how do we navigate, creatingthe conditions for having more
comfortable conversations around?
Hey, we don't know what wedon't know.
Jason Anderson (29:14):
Great question.
So I agree with you.
Onboarding, we talk to a lot ofcompanies now.
A lot of companies havedownright almost abandoned it.
If it is there, it's not thatgood, and a lot of companies
we're just seeing kind of, youknow, discarding it or doing it
in a very lumpy manner.
Right, the really easiest wayto look at this is go, they're
(29:42):
moving from a militaryenvironment, super unique, into
a private sector environment.
So if there isn't an onboardingor the onboarding isn't
effective and doesn't addressthem specifically, they are
going to be disproportionatelyaffected by that.
For sure, right, rockwellCollins had an outstanding
onboarding program.
I still felt like I was in.
For sure, right, rockwellCollins had an outstanding
onboarding program.
(30:03):
I still felt like I was in adryer Right, I was just kind of
kind of floating around all overthe place because it was too
much information.
So what you got to get them isreally specific information to
orient them quickly and then putthem into onboarding, which is
why you know what we have is wespecialize in what I would call
micro training, right, becausewe've been doing it for five
(30:23):
years and we know exactly whatthe gaps are and how we can fill
them.
What we're doing now is we'reworking with companies before
like post-hire veterans.
We hold workshops that are twoto three hours long and we can
get a long way into the mindsetand private sector orientation
in that two to three hour longand we can get a long way into
the mindset and private sectororientation in that two to three
hour window.
And then at least when theyshow up to onboarding they go.
(30:45):
I have some idea of what'sgoing on here, right?
So that is a really good, easygap filler that gets them into
the same bucket as everyone else.
Actually, because they're not,even though people that are
non-military are going intoonboarding.
They're more familiar becausethey've not, even though people
that are non-military have aregoing into onboarding.
They're more familiar becausethey've been in and around the
(31:06):
private sector environment,unless you're coming right out
of high school or right out ofhigher ed, right, they just
there's.
There is a gap there justhaving some level of business
acumen for entry-level employeesanyway.
But what happens with themilitary folks?
Yes, some go to entry level butsome go to, you know, senior
individual contributor,intermediate individual
contributor, director.
I mean, it might be a titleonly, but they're considered a
(31:28):
very strong subject matterexpert for a very important
program or programs and theystill don't know how to quite
interact with the teams.
You know what I mean.
You could see where this is aproblem.
Let me I'll give you a greatexample.
We have a client it's anaerospace defense company and
they didn't know there was aproblem until we started kind of
talking to them and then whenwe gave them this lens of just a
(31:50):
few things I showed you,they're like oh, we're starting
to see this senior businessdevelopment individual right,
and he came from a veryimportant program within the
government and they put him in abusiness development position
First.
Business development is reallytough because military people
just the nature of the industryyou don't sell anything ever.
(32:12):
You can do relationship building, but there's a whole lot more
to BD than just relationshipbuilding.
So this poor guy struggled andhe just left the company right
in three months and he wasexpressing all these telltale
signs we tell you about justdiscomfort, disorientation, not
sure what to do, not who to ask,who to ask questions.
So I wanted to just show thatas an example.
(32:33):
It's real and if you startasking around it's a very
significant challenge but it canbe overcome pretty quick
because they are smart andcapable.
It's just they haven't beentold they're going in a new
environment and they haven'tbeen given a primer for how to
operate that effectively.
Jay Johnson (32:50):
It seems to me that you're well positioned, having
had a foot in the military andalso having had a foot and
experience in the private sector, to be able to kind of merge
this together.
Have you seen anything like aservice member to service member
type mentorship program orsomething for that ongoing
(33:14):
support or that ongoing learningright Like even beyond
onboarding or training, learningright Like even beyond
onboarding or training?
Are there any other things thatwe can be thinking about to
really kind of smooth thatpathway for success?
Jason Anderson (33:28):
It's a great question.
It's a complex question.
Remember, I go back to the 1991kind of framework that was set.
The results from that frameworkof the program or record has
not been good.
So you can imagine there's beena bunch of coaching businesses,
there's been a bunch of likementorship platforms and stuff
like that.
I'm a little conflicted on thatbecause, like what I told you
(33:49):
about going back 30, 40 years,everybody that's gone through
the service and to this day iscreating their own model.
So essentially we have 200,000per year mentors multiplied by
the number of years and they'veall had completely divergent
experiences.
So I don't know how much valuethere is in that.
(34:15):
To be honest, training whereyou can all become baselined in
what the private sector is, howit functions, how it makes money
, how you do that where, whatyou're going to do with your
role, that aids in that profitmaking there, thereby showing
purpose.
If we create, if we had thatbaseline man, if we had that
baseline, we would just be somuch better off because the
(34:35):
employer knows what to talk tothe veteran employee about,
mentors know what to talk about,because there's a consistent
framework that is really rootedin real private sector kind of
business focus rather than.
This was my personal experienceand it is valuable.
Don't get me wrong.
It's just you're going to ask10 people the same question.
You're going to get 10different answers.
Jay Johnson (34:57):
Yeah, so at what level?
And you had mentioned and Iwould just like to dig into this
a little bit more you had said,you know, in a two hour kind of
workshop or some kind of framelike that, you would be able to
help sort of navigate some ofthat divide.
What does that look like?
(35:17):
Like, what does that experiencelook like?
Is that really just kind of theum?
Is that kind of one of thosewhere it's like I don't want to
say just this is what to expect?
Like, where does that go, uh,in terms of kind of bringing
everybody and getting them onthe same page?
Jason Anderson (35:37):
Yep, and I appreciate you, jay, because
you're a brain guy, right?
I mean, I've listened to a fewof your things and I love your.
T plus F equals B, right?
So thoughts plus, I think,feelings equals behaviors.
Okay, so let me get right toyour question.
So there needs to be twodifferent types of training that
(35:59):
take place.
There needs to be what I wouldcall more or less an
intervention, where it's youneed this training, right, but
as you level, they're going tobe processing through this, but
that still gets them from a.
I have no idea what I'm doingto.
(36:26):
I know what my target is now,right, I know what.
I know what this environment is, even if I'm not comfortable in
it yet.
So that first two to three hourworkshop does that.
And then we have ongoingtraining on a quarterly basis in
order to reinforce these things.
It has more exercises becauseat the end of the day, I have to
.
The training has to get you tobegin first understanding
(36:48):
there's a new environment, soself-awareness.
And then the next piece is howdo I operate in this environment
?
And we use how you fit intoyour role in the organization to
operate in that environment,because then that opens up
aperture into?
What business processes am Igoing to be participating in?
What do I do on an activity ona daily basis, weekly basis,
monthly basis?
How does this flow into theannual operating plan, the
(37:11):
strategic and financial plan,gate processes, gate reviews,
right.
And once you know what you'redoing and how that aids in the
profit making with the businessprocess side, it's just like oh,
I have context, you know, it'sjust it feels so much better
because you're like I know whatI'm doing.
Jay Johnson (37:29):
This is great, you know.
So this is incredible, jason,and I really applaud you for
both the tenacity to kind ofdiscover this major gap quite
frankly I mean absolutely majorgap and to really recognize the
fact that you know when you getsomebody out there like Gallup,
looking at the you knowpromotional resistance, that
(37:52):
happens.
You know 50% of people promotedare seen as underperforming
within 50,.
You know within 18 months ofbeing promoted, underperforming
within 50,.
You know within 18 months ofbeing promoted.
And to hear that there is someof that same kind of concept
going on because of a lack ofunderstanding of those two
different worlds or the gapsbetween those two different
(38:12):
worlds, it must have really beenrewarding for you to kind of
get that aha moment.
Can you talk to me just alittle bit?
What was that like when youwere like, holy, this is
something that we can actuallyaddress, this is something that
we can make lives and businessesbetter by, you know, really
understanding this.
What was that moment like foryou?
Jason Anderson (38:35):
So it has been a moment long in the timeline,
right, because the first ahamoment?
It's been a series of ahamoments.
The first was really figuringout what the problem was, eureka
, you know, I figured it outmore or less in 2017, 2018, when
I was side hustling pre-veteranwith approval from my company,
by the way.
Then the next aha moment iswhen we actually developed a
(38:59):
courseware, right, and it workedand people really enjoyed it
and got a lot out of it.
But now that we understand theproblem and really how to
optimize people, no matter wherethey are, whether they're
getting out or already in aworkforce we know they need this
training, 100% right.
But what we're convinced of isthat the market has been set a
(39:21):
certain way, which means serviceor veteran employees don't know
they need this, so theystruggle.
Companies don't know they needthis, so they struggle.
So, as you can imagine, it'sequal parts, great opportunity
and great challenge, right?
A great opportunity is if wecan talk to your listeners and
they go.
That makes sense.
I want to try a free demo andwe're like sounds good, let's do
(39:44):
it.
Let's do a two to three hourworkshop and demo it with your
leaders, but once we start kindof getting people to understand
the problem and see the telltalesigns and then understand the
implications, both financial andfrom a human resources
standpoint.
We know that there's going tobe business there and impact the
individual in the business,both financial and from a human
resources standpoint.
We know that there's going tobe business there and impact the
individual in the businessright, but they just don't know
(40:05):
it's a problem yet.
So you could see greatopportunity.
But then there's greatchallenge because it's a
disruptor.
It is a completely disruptivebut very necessary training
program.
Well, jason, let's find out.
(40:32):
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how would
they do so?
Or, as you navigate on thewebsite, you'll see veteran
workforce training.
There's options in there tocontact us or even set up a demo
or set up a discovery call todo a demo.
We'd love to talk with yourlisteners in any industry.
We can kind of tell them thetelltale signs of what to look
(41:03):
for and then have a really easy,cost-effective solution.
Jay Johnson (41:04):
That's just going to make things work out better
for their business and betterfor their veteran employee
workforce.
So, audience, if you are in anorganization that is working or
hiring veterans, this is a greatresource and a great
opportunity to really get abetter understanding of how to
create the conditions forsuccess.
And I want to say thank you,jason, not only for your service
, but for the continuation ofsupporting that population and
(41:29):
for coming here and sharing thisinsight.
This is really really brilliantand, honestly, it's just
something that I don't think alot of people would naturally
think about, and you're reallydoing a nice job of surfacing
this and empowering both yourparticipants and your trainings,
but also the businesses andbetter understanding what this
gap is.
Jason Anderson (41:49):
So thank you for being here with us today,
really appreciate you letting metalk to you and your audience,
Jay.
Thank you so much.
Jay Johnson (41:56):
Well, and thank you , audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we're shaping the future
of training and development.
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