February 13, 2025 • 37 mins
Join us as we welcome back Dr. Barb Thompson, a seasoned expert in the world of assessments. In this episode, we explore the importance of having a trained professional guide the interpretation of these assessments to harness their full potential and adapt to life's ever-changing landscape.
Additionally, our conversation shifts toward the pressing issue of burnout, particularly within high-performance teams, and how we challenge traditional notions of resilience and toughness, offering a fresh perspective on how intrinsic motivation can act as a safeguard against burnout.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
I am rejoined by special guestBarb Thompson, who had featured
on a show the last time.
Now, if you recall, Barb issomebody who is working with
some of the best and highestperforming teams in the world.
(00:22):
Welcome to the show, Barb.
Thanks for coming back.
Dr. Barb Thompson (00:27):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited about ourconversation today.
Jay Johnson (00:30):
So I wanted to have you back, because in the world
of training and talentdevelopment and even
organizational consulting, wesee a lot of assessments out
there Everything frompersonality assessments,
behavioral assessments, uniqueones, ones that we're all
familiar with, whether that'sDISC or Myers-Briggs and you are
(00:51):
an assessment expert andobviously do a lot of work with
assessing teams and being ableto better understand them.
I'd love to just give you freereign here.
Talk a little bit about yourassessment experience, share
with us a little some of yourinsights or some of your
(01:12):
direction, and we'll take theconversation from there, because
I know that everything comesout of this one is going to be
really useful to any of us thatare using assessments on a daily
.
Dr. Barb Thompson (01:23):
Sure.
So I think I'll just say thatmy experience with assessments
started in a clinical realm, andso initially I was trying to
learn about differentassessments in order to diagnose
people who felt like they hadsomething going on mentally or
(01:43):
emotionally that was out of thenorm for them.
And then, once I was introducedto more and more assessments in
the army, then I was able tolook at assessments a little bit
differently.
The first, I would say, kind ofresidency experience I had was
that of looking at brain injury,which I think makes sense if
(02:06):
you consider especially, youknow, being in the army and the
problems that we faced withinthe last 20 years in those
environments that we sent oursoldiers to.
So that required another robustset of assessments, learning
about them anyway.
And so then cognitivefunctioning right, I got that,
(02:29):
the tools that I needed toassess cognitive functioning.
So now you've got kind of likeemotional assessments, mental
health assessments, cognitivefunctioning assessments, you
know kind of tasks of dailyliving.
And then, whenever I went intothe world of operational
(02:50):
psychology, then assessmentsagain kind of opened up a new
arena for me in the in the realmof assessment selection for
high performing, high risk teamsand then beyond that personal
and professional development.
So in a nutshell, that's kindof my background with
assessments.
(03:10):
I've used them for a lot ofdifferent purposes and I think
that they are excellent tools.
Jay Johnson (03:16):
So I sensed just a little bit of they're excellent
tools.
What was the but that wasfollowing along beside that?
I kind of got this inclinationthat that may be coming next.
Dr. Barb Thompson (03:33):
So I just like, when real people are
paired along with the assessment, that are trained on the
assessment and how to reallyutilize the assessments, because
you know, as someone who's donethe work in creating a
research-backed assessment, thatthere goes a lot, goes into it,
(03:56):
and sometimes, when assessmentsare, you know, kind of emailed
out and take this, take that.
You know they can be harmless,it can be just for fun, but you
really want to be careful aboutthe way that, um, you introduce
a person to an assessment,because if I am learning, or I
feel like I'm learning,something that is true about
(04:18):
myself or I believe to be trueabout myself, that can have
certain consequences on the waythat I think, behave, or think,
believe and then behave.
And so for me, the hesitationis just that I think assessments
are best when paired withsomeone who's really familiar
with them.
Jay Johnson (04:34):
And I love that you bring that up.
One of my bigger challenges withassessments for many years and
I was certified in the NEO-PIR,which is one of the clinical
diagnostics for the big fivefactors in personality, as well
as a number of others here,there and wherever else and one
(04:57):
of the things that I thought wasreally interesting because a
lot of people they love to learnabout themselves or they love
to become self-aware, but thenthey sort of hold on to the
things that they end up gettingfrom these assessments.
So it's just like somebody goesand takes the DISC assessment
You're like oh well, I'm a highD and then immediately sort of
like starts to live thatidentity or just justify that
(05:21):
identity, even thoughbehaviorally maybe they could
make different choices.
But it's just like well, that'show I am, I scored a high D, so
now I'm just going to be directin every single thing that I
say and I think that that can beextraordinarily limiting.
So when you're talking aboutbeing paired with somebody to
(05:42):
sort of navigate that, what doesthat experience look like, barb
?
Dr. Barb Thompson (05:46):
Yeah, I don't think it's too complex.
I think that you have someoneon the end right that can say
okay, you took the you know 10,20, 30 minutes out of your own
time to take this assessment.
Now here's what we can learnfrom it.
And without that person on theother end, all of your questions
(06:07):
might not be answered by asimple report, or I've seen some
of these reports, and I knowyou have.
They can be really confusing,and so they can be.
Some of them use language thatis not language that we use
every day, and so there may bemisinterpretations or meaning
that's being missed or potentialthat's being missed or
(06:29):
something that you're justthinking flat out wrong about
when it comes to the assessment.
So I will say, too, that we doknow, especially from the
research with assessments likethe NEO, that reassessment is
nice, nice re-evaluation is nice, and I know probably all of our
(06:49):
listeners have gone throughdifferent phases of life where
we're early career, mid-career,late career, we're having
children or we're taking a kindof sabbatical.
All of these, we've lostsomeone close to us or something
close to us.
All of these big life events domake changes in us, and for
(07:11):
good reason.
You wouldn't want to staystatic right.
You learn and grow and youcontinue to do that throughout
your lifetime.
Have seen, you know, I'll givesomeone the same assessment they
had maybe five, six years priorand we'll learn new things.
We'll continue to learn howtheir environment, how their
experiences continue to shapethem and I think that carries a
(07:35):
lot of hope with it.
It may be that someone iscoming back because I know, you
know, we'll get into burnout,but because they're feeling
burned out or they're not in thebest place.
But a reevaluation, I think,still brings hope, because we
know that the brain is pliableand can continue to change with
(07:55):
the right resources and support.
Jay Johnson (08:14):
Staticity is something that I find to be
really interesting in relationto a lot of assessments, because
for so many of the assessments,we see something like looking
at the validity and reliabilityscales and the idea that, hey,
you know, if you take thisassessment and then six months
later you take the assessmentagain, you're going to have
virtually generally about thesame scores and it's like, but a
lot can happen in six months.
If you would have assessed mewith something let's call it
March 1st of 2020, and thenassessed me six months after of
(08:36):
being in isolation, you may havegotten a very, very different
set of results.
So how do we navigate somethinglike this?
Because, and and and as we usethis to kind of start digging
into burnout you know, we doknow, like Gabber Mate's
research, dr Mate's researchrecently has been talking about,
like hey, some of these issuesthat we're experiencing, such as
(08:58):
burnout, well, they're probablya result of some of the
different personality thingsthat we've been scripted with
when we were a kid and when wedeveloped, and you know, our
environment and so on and soforth.
How do you leverage sort ofthis understanding of the brain
that we have, thisneuroplasticity that we can
shift, that we can change, butthe sort of I don't know, I'm
(09:22):
going to call it the scientificneed for validity and
reliability in the scales Likehow do you balance that, barb?
Dr. Barb Thompson (09:29):
Yeah.
So we had a rule when I waslast doing assessment and
selection that we wanted peopleto reapply, because we did
believe that people can change,especially given challenges that
are right outside of theirlimits.
You know that's motivating.
We'll talk about motivation inregards to burnout, but if it
(09:51):
had been more than a year beforea person returned to assessment
selection, we would give theentire battery again, just
because it is exciting thathumans continue to grow and
change.
And I just think that, becausewe are so complex, isn't it nice
?
Isn't it nice that we can'tjust be put into a box for one
(10:13):
time and you're in that box yourwhole life?
I certainly don't want to beput in a box.
I don't think anyone elsereally has that desire either.
Jay Johnson (10:23):
And it's that's one of the most inspirational
pieces I think that I found inmy research, because I may have
mentioned this before, but myresearch was me search.
I wanted to figure out why I wasdoing what I was doing.
You know, how could I navigate?
Am I stuck being the personthat I was at the age of 21, 25,
29, 30 and yesterday, you know,turning 43, and I look back and
(10:47):
I go the Jay Johnson of fiveyears ago is a very, very
different Jay Johnson than ishere today, and getting an
understanding of sort of whereI'm at on those cycles through
assessments has been powerful.
Now the question that I thinkthat I would have in relation to
the battery of differentassessments that are available
(11:12):
what gives you a good indicationof how to select the right
assessment for the rightsituation?
Whether that is, hey, I'mtrying to assess selection
criteria for you know we talkeda lot about high performance
teams in the last one selectioncriteria for this or what would
(11:32):
be some things that we wouldwant to look out to say, hey,
this is going to tell us animportant aspect about whatever
the situation is how do youdetermine which one to use?
Dr. Barb Thompson (11:42):
Yeah, a lot of times it's just remaining
curious with the person that'sin front of you and having the
conversations.
You know it's really difficulton your own, even as a
psychologist or a behavioralscientist.
When you are looking atyourself, it's like the lens is
just a little too close.
And so when you're having thoseconversations with people who
are maybe stuck in a certainsituation or desire more or are
(12:07):
having a problem, then I thinkit's really important to ask
good questions and to listen towhat they're saying and remain
curious.
I know my brain immediatelystarts to look for answers and
solutions as far as whatassessment can I give them to
find out more information?
But a lot of times it's reallyin a curious conversation,
(12:30):
asking good questions and thentrying to get down to the root
of the matter, and then you canlook at all kinds of different
assessments, some more kind ofvalid than others, once you know
what does this person reallywant or really need out of this
interaction?
I know that's really vague, butthat's where I like to start.
Jay Johnson (12:56):
Well, I think that's so smart, right, and we
teach trainers and coaches hey,you really need to be audience
focused.
And by asking the rightquestions or listening, we know
because one of the rightquestions, or listening, we know
because one of the things.
I think that's maybefrustrating and, as you
mentioned, yes, I have createdan assessment.
That is not the end all be alland it's not the only assessment
(13:17):
that we deploy, because thereare different situations that
require different assessmentsthat look at different things.
But I often see us get stuckand be like this is the one,
this is the one assessment thatrules them all.
Dr. Barb Thompson (13:30):
It's like, uh , you know, and and typically,
like you said, your research wasB research.
Like typically, when anassessment really hits, like it
gives us insight that we value,then that's the assessment we
love the most and we want toshare it with everyone and I
think you know there's goodnessin that.
There's also goodness inknowing that there's a variety
(13:51):
of assessments because there's avariety of needs.
Jay Johnson (13:55):
And I think that when we get a better
understanding of those things,it really does.
You know all of the differentangles in which we can look.
Human behavior is so complexand, to your point, sticking
somebody in a box and saying,well, here you are, this is what
you are, this is your script,is probably not just limiting
but can be really, reallydamaging.
So let's dig into burnout Now.
(14:17):
When we were talking the lasttime, you are working with some
of the highest performing teamsin the entire world and I think
there's so much misconceptionaround the space of burnout.
You know some people are likehow can I be burned out?
You know, am I just not strongenough?
Am I not tough enough?
Do I not have the rightmentality?
You know we see so much aboutbeing able to build this
(14:42):
resilience and this tough.
You know this tough mindset, etcetera.
Barb, talk to me as somebodywho's working with probably some
of the toughest of the toughwhat is your experience with
burnout?
Dr. Barb Thompson (15:00):
Everyone experiences burnout at some
point or another, and I agree,they are so capable, so bright,
so driven and yet sometimes theconditions and we'll talk about
specifically what thoseconditions are it's just the
perfect storm, right, and itleads to this kind of emotional
exhaustion, like another termfor burnout is depressive
(15:22):
anxiety disorder, like it's allof the yucky things that we
don't want.
Anxiety disorder, like it's allof the yucky things that we
don't want, you know, wrappedinto one.
But overall it's just thisfeeling of I don't know why, but
I'm exhausted.
Just the thought of my worktypically is how we are when we
talk about burnout is.
It just makes me tired, youknow, and it's like this chronic
(15:47):
fatigue that also shows up inthis type of anxiety, like this
dread or having trouble sleeping.
So it's a mixture of these kindof what we what we
traditionally would see asdepressive and anxious symptoms.
But there's there's more,there's more to it.
So when you look at selfdetermination theory, it is
(16:10):
talking about how humans aremotivated and typically, if an
environment allows for autonomy,so a person to feel like they
have some sense of control orchoice, if they feel there's a
sense of competence, so theyfeel effective in their behavior
or their tasks, or they evenmight feel a sense of mastery
(16:34):
over what they're doing duringthe day.
And, lastly, they feelrelatedness, so they feel a
sense of belonging or they feelconnected to, like, the mission
or the people that they're doingthat mission with.
That is what that's theenvironment we want, or the
people that they're doing thatmission with, that's the
environment we want.
Jay Johnson (16:51):
And, for a number of different reasons, that
triangle can get thrown off andeven in the best of the best,
and one of the things that Iheard you say there that I think
is really fascinating I'm gonnaask you to go into it.
You say there that I think isis really fascinating.
I'm going to ask you to go intoit is.
I was just listening to theHuberman lab and he was
(17:13):
interviewing Dr Carrion and itwas just they were talking about
post-traumatic stress, injuryand symptoms and how those
symptoms from post-traumaticstress you know, injury show up
versus from depression, and howthose show up, and from
heightened anxiety and fromsituations of burnout, et cetera
(17:35):
.
Like we can experience thesesymptoms.
How do we know that we're inburnout and not in depressive
anxiety disorder, for example,or how do we?
What is the distinguishingcharacteristic Cause?
It's almost just like I knowhow I'm feeling inside, but how
do I quantify that or what wouldI look at?
(17:57):
So maybe, if we talk about someof those different conditions
that you had mentioned, what,what distinguishes me feeling
burned out versus maybe I'm justanxious or stressed or sad or
what?
How do we, how do we getthrough that?
Dr. Barb Thompson (18:12):
So when we we did start to measure it,
because, you know, especiallyafter COVID I think COVID was it
was this crazy combination of,you know, an unknown fear.
So I think everyone was feelinga lack of control or lack of
sense of control and autonomy.
So that part of the triangle,that piece of the triangle, was
(18:33):
already kind of tipping in adirection we didn't want it to
Right.
And then, with certain mandatesNow I'm just saying this from a
human perspective, not apolitical one at all Right, like
, sometimes rules are put inplace to, you know, to keep
everyone safe.
But I'm just saying that,especially in high performing
(18:54):
teams, when these people havemore or less earned their
autonomy and their freedom, andthen blanket compliance is
required, no matter what, thatagain gets that triangle really
tipping in the wrong direction.
But we saw it symptomatically aspeople not enjoying their work
(19:21):
as much.
We saw their drive decrease.
And then I think what the worldsaw too, and we did too we were
not, it was, it was not absentwas this quiet, quitting.
So you would show up at where,typically in the morning, like
for my place of work, I mean,the gym is super loud, guys are
(19:43):
getting there early, they'reworking out hard.
You know they're ready to facethe day like it's quiet there's
no one here.
People are coming in late, notshowing up at all right, or
going home early, so those werethe type of symptoms.
And then just lack ofexcitement, lack of connection
while they're at work.
So if you're thinking toyourself, oh wait, that sounds,
I mean, maybe not exactly likeme, but a little bit like me
(20:04):
then those are typically thesymptoms of burnout.
And the way that we measurethat is not just that emotional
component of the feelingexhausted or tired or just like
when you think of work, it'sjust this fatigue you cannot
explain.
That's the emotional piece ofit, but it's also just like a
lack of empathy.
And then it's isolation fromfrom either the people you serve
(20:26):
or you know the people that youwork with, and then a lack of
feeling like you've achievedanything.
You're like you can't pinpointthe tasks you're doing connected
to something good.
Jay Johnson (20:42):
Right.
So that's really where and it'sso funny that you say this,
because every singleorganization that I've ever
consulted they think that quietquitting is just on them Like I
don't understand.
It's just, you know, we haveall of this, we have this quiet
and it's just like.
No, this is a phenomenon thatis extending well beyond and
it's almost like at some pointin time it's like okay, listen,
(21:04):
you're not alone.
I've worked with NASA, I'veworked with Nikon, I've worked
with Ford, I've worked with allof these other entities and
they're experiencing the exactsame thing that you are, because
it's human and guess what?
You employ humans.
So I'd love to hear I don'tlove to hear it, because it is
(21:24):
one of those things whereobviously you don't want any
organization, any entity to beexperiencing this, things where
obviously you don't want anyorganization, any entity to be
experiencing this.
But it is nice to know that,hey, even in somewhere like the
military or somewhere where wewould expect that you know the
toughest of the tough, and so onand so forth, that they still
have that experience, because itdoes, it does it kind of
humanizes it for all of us andobviously we all need to
(21:46):
overcome it, we all need to sortof, you know, maybe not look at
it as the enemy, but I like totell people what is burnout
telling you, right Like, if youpretend burnout is your friend,
what is it communicating to you?
And I want to go to one of thethings that you said
specifically.
Purpose is what I heard, rightLike that the work that I'm
(22:10):
doing has meaning, that it'scontributing at a level that is
meaningful not only to myself,but to my legacy, to my team, to
the organization, to themission, whatever that might be.
How is it, you know, how is itthat when we experience sort of
that purpose, or when we seeourselves aligned with that
(22:31):
purpose, that it almost gives usthis superhuman capacity to
work 16 hours and feel likewe're in flow, but when we don't
have that, we work for 16minutes and we're like I am done
.
How does that play out in ourbrain, barb?
Dr. Barb Thompson (22:53):
like I am done.
How does that play out in ourbrain, barb?
Yeah, it's, it's um.
So I know a lot of people talkabout, like, uh, carrots and
sticks.
As far as motivating people,you know, and and I'm sure many
people who listen to thispodcast have heard the terms
extrinsic motivation ormotivators, versus intrinsic
motivation or or motivators, andso it is a continuum.
Extrinsic, completely extrinsicmotivators are things that are
(23:14):
basically in your environmentand just there to either reward
or punish you.
Um, can they get you going?
Like, will a child clean hisroom if you threaten them with
taking away something?
They love?
Probably, but will they do itwell?
Will they love to do it?
(23:34):
Probably not, right, and I'mjust taking, because that's an
easy example, right?
Jay Johnson (23:40):
Have everything under the bed, so that way I can
get back to Xbox right.
Dr. Barb Thompson (23:43):
Totally.
Yeah, everything looks great,but don't open the closet.
Now.
A lot of companies, though,when they're under pressure,
like they were for COVID, orquite like all of these kind of
really grand, oh gosh, justsituations and and experiences
(24:04):
that we were having, as you know, a world together, um, they can
get desperate and they lean onthese extrinsic motivators like
punishment and rewards, and anduh, people just aren't motivated
long term by extrinsic rewards.
Um, it would be probably easierif we were, but our brains
brains are not, they don't workthat way.
Now, as you go further towardsthe intrinsic, um end of the
(24:30):
spectrum, these are things thatwe find true enjoyment and
satisfaction in, and, um, onestep below that, maybe, um,
maybe we don't find, you're like, how am I supposed to find work
that I'm naturally, you know,enjoying?
It is out there, you're.
I think your assessment canhelp people with kind of finding
(24:53):
out what drives them as anindividual and and kind of to
what degree.
But just under, that would bean alignment with what you
believe or value to be important.
And so, when we're talkingabout this feeling of exhaustion
, I like to just, in my head,have an arrow that leads right
(25:14):
to examination much of it.
The feeling is awful, it feelsterrible, it feels new and
different, but it's not the endand you can, things can change.
In other words, and with thatassessment or examination, I
(25:38):
would say, like when people cometo me and we've had a lot of
them, this happens frequentlywhen people leave the military
as well because that trianglewas perfectly in place people,
they love a mission they caredabout and something they'd been
doing for a really long time, sothey felt really effective and
competent.
In any case, giving someassessments, getting some
(26:00):
insight and then making a planare some simple, really simple
ways that we can all start tofight burnout.
In this case, I do believe thata values exercise we can talk
about.
There are assessments that lookat what type of tasks give you
(26:20):
joy and energy.
So I, I like those.
You can also have aconversation about the specific
tasks that people actually enjoydoing that maybe other
teammates don't like.
They might look at and say,like I hate using Excel.
You're like, oh, I love it,like when the numbers line up
and everything works out justlike that.
You know, I'm not one of thosepeople, so it's hard for me to
talk about that task.
(26:40):
Yeah, but there are people outthere?
Right, there are.
We are different in that waythat some tasks during a day
bring us joy and energy and someof them strain us.
I think it's important to learnabout those because that starts
to get you some of this insightinto what is intrinsically
motivating you versusextrinsically motivating you.
And we want to get as close tointrinsic as we can because
(27:03):
that's what is like rocket fuelfor your motivation and it lasts
.
You know it's long termmotivation, and so a values
exercise would be just underkind of those tasks that give
you joint energy.
And then, ultimately, you dowant to learn about what drives
you, as you know, a human being,to learn about what drives you
as a human being, if you want tokind of keep the long view on.
(27:33):
I don't ever want to feel likeburnout, this burnout again,
right, and so what can I learnthat's really going to make a
difference in the way that Iapproach my environment or learn
from my environment, or evenadjust my environment, which I
did try to make.
I usually try to makeadjustments in the environment
first, like get the insight,let's see what we can do to
adjust your environment.
Maybe bring in some of theleadership, because wouldn't it
(27:53):
be nice to know that yourleaders know that triangle
autonomy, competence andrelatedness Because many times,
especially in smallerorganizations or on smaller
teams, they can be that missinglink, like for when people
aren't feeling a personalachievement or they're not
(28:14):
feeling that their tasks havepurpose right, or they're not
feeling like they have choiceabout what they do during the
day or when they do it.
Leaders can really get involvedin that way if they have this
education and make theenvironment a little bit more
flexible.
It is more complex that way,but hopefully it also leads to
more intrinsically motivatedpeople, which has endless
(28:37):
benefits.
Jay Johnson (28:38):
Well, and it's so interesting because I think that
you really bring in some greatinsight there and I think that
this is something that everytrainer, every coach can really
take away.
Oftentimes the extrinsicmotivators are necessary but not
sufficient for motivation.
Right Like I can't underpay youfor the rest of your life and
(29:00):
expect you to stay in this jobor anything else like that.
I can't you know, I can't giveyou unlimited PTO at the cost of
you know something else.
So these are necessary.
There's almost like a litmus ofand I know that there's some
pretty good literature thattalks about like, at certain
thresholds, that's as much joyor motivation that you're going
(29:21):
to get out of differentextrinsic type motivation tools,
carrots and sticks and thenyou're going to have resistance,
resentment, disengagement oranything else before you get
into you know, even somethinglike quiet quitting.
But that intrinsic side ofthings Now you know you had
mentioned the assessment that wedo, the behavioral elements one
(29:42):
.
One of the things that we foundand this was across a couple of
different studies is thatpeople that tend to have a
strong drive to bond were at ahigher propensity for
experiencing burnout andburnout-related symptoms.
Now, when we sat down and didsome interviewing with them now,
some of them were in thehealthcare space.
(30:03):
We know that the drive to bondis very, very prominent in
healthcare.
It's very, very prominent ineducation, particularly
frontline teachers.
One of the things that wasreally fascinating and when we
did a content analysis of theinterview and sort of like,
looked at the language used, itwas almost uniform.
Not only were they carryingaround their own emotions, but
(30:24):
they were carrying around theemotions of their team.
They were getting down onthemselves, feeling shame or
guilt that they weren't doingenough to bring other people up,
et cetera.
So when we think aboutsomething like burnout, what's
your experience maybe inthinking about?
because that relatedness, thatconnectedness, that we have if
we feel disconnected, thatobviously can drive different
(30:47):
burnout symptoms.
But is it possible that that'sa two-way street, Like if we
feel overly connected, that wealmost like absorb the other
exhaustion or the other energythat's around us?
What do you think on that?
Dr. Barb Thompson (31:00):
You know, I love that.
I didn't know that you had donethat research.
But I think what that pointsout is that when people have a
really high drive forconnectedness or relatedness,
you know, automatically theytake on this role of like I'm,
I'm the caretaker, I'm themotivator, and so what they have
(31:22):
now is a double edged sword.
When other people are feelingdown, they feel like their
personal achievement has gonedown too Right.
So that's two out of the threeof you know what we know to be
kind of like thatself-determination theory, that
they're not feeling competent intheir role to bring people
alongside or motivate or makethem feel good.
(31:43):
So that's kind of my take on it.
Jay Johnson (31:48):
Well, that makes a lot of sense, because let's
think about healthcare in a timeof COVID, when there was no
solution or when there was noopportunity.
I mean, we saw burnout scalesjust massively increase.
It's like, okay, well, now I'mnot competent in my job because
I can't solve this crisis.
And now I'm looking around andI'm seeing all of these other
people who so I think it'ssomething like 72% of frontline
(32:11):
nurses that have taken thebehavioral elements assessment
show water, the drive to bond,primary element.
So I mean you're talking almostthree, three, you know three
fourths Teachers actually hirefrontline teachers 78% of them
show.
So you're talking about twoindustries that definitely have
(32:32):
talked about experience burnout.
I didn't think about it'sbrilliant what you just said and
kind of gave me some insights.
I didn't think about themfeeling like I'm not successful
in what I'm doing, becauseteachers were having that same
struggle during COVID, like howcan I teach, how can I actually
connect with students, how can Ido this?
So it's not just therelatability, but it could also
(32:53):
be that sort of I'm not winningin my position either, or I'm
not being effective in thatposition.
Oh, that's insightful, allright.
So, barb, I know that we don'thave too much time here what are
some of the ways that you wouldencourage or help people make
that shift necessary to maybeget them on the right track for
(33:16):
reducing their burnout orburnout related symptoms?
Dr. Barb Thompson (33:19):
Yeah, I would say that some of them.
I'll just highlight them.
I think we've talked about allthe practical kind of tips that
I would give, but the first isjust to normalize that even
people at the very highestlevels, the bravest, strongest
people in the world, they havebeen burned out right.
They have felt burnout, justlike you.
So I think that's reallyimportant and cannot be
(33:41):
understated, that this is not ayou problem, this is just a
problem right?
Secondly, we know that one ofthe really important pieces to
motivation is relatedness.
So my advice would be no matterhow smart you are and how
driven you are, this is not aproblem you want to do alone,
(34:02):
because that's just not smart.
In this case, part of whathelps us feel motivated is that
connection and relatedness, andso when you're trying to solve
this problem, you need toinvolve other people.
And then, thirdly, I would saythat you and I have outlined
some tools that I know peoplewill try to Google on their own,
but it'd be great if you could,when you're involving people,
(34:25):
just involve people that know orhave experience, and I think
that your time will not bewasted.
So, examination, include otherpeople, take an assessment or
two to get some insight and thenmake a plan, just like you
would make a plan for somethingelse, and we know that these
(34:45):
things work.
Jay Johnson (34:47):
Such incredible insight, and thank you again,
barb, for coming back on theshow.
I think this was something soimportant to talk about because
we as trainers, as coaches andorganizational leaders feel it,
but so do our teams and thepeople that are sitting across
from us, and we know the impactof burnout on learning, on
growing, on effectiveness in theworkplace, so your insights
(35:11):
have been so incredibly powerfulhere today.
I just want to say thank youagain for being here with us.
Dr. Barb Thompson (35:17):
Thank you.
I am really excited for peopleto hear this conversation and
hopefully they'll have morequestions for you to just keep
diving into.
I think that it is a reallyimportant topic and we shouldn't
stop talking about it justbecause in the mass media we're
not talking about it as much aswe were in 2022.
(35:38):
I think it's still a problem.
So thanks for having me.
Jay Johnson (35:41):
Thank you, barb, and we'll look forward to
talking again, hopefully soon,here on the Talent Forge, where
we are shaping the future oftraining and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
I am rejoined by special guestBarb Thompson, who had featured
on a show the last time.
Now, if you recall, Barb issomebody who is working with
some of the best and highestperforming teams in the world.
(00:22):
Welcome to the show, Barb.
Thanks for coming back.
Dr. Barb Thompson (00:27):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited about ourconversation today.
Jay Johnson (00:30):
So I wanted to have you back, because in the world
of training and talentdevelopment and even
organizational consulting, wesee a lot of assessments out
there Everything frompersonality assessments,
behavioral assessments, uniqueones, ones that we're all
familiar with, whether that'sDISC or Myers-Briggs and you are
(00:51):
an assessment expert andobviously do a lot of work with
assessing teams and being ableto better understand them.
I'd love to just give you freereign here.
Talk a little bit about yourassessment experience, share
with us a little some of yourinsights or some of your
(01:12):
direction, and we'll take theconversation from there, because
I know that everything comesout of this one is going to be
really useful to any of us thatare using assessments on a daily
.
Dr. Barb Thompson (01:23):
Sure.
So I think I'll just say thatmy experience with assessments
started in a clinical realm, andso initially I was trying to
learn about differentassessments in order to diagnose
people who felt like they hadsomething going on mentally or
(01:43):
emotionally that was out of thenorm for them.
And then, once I was introducedto more and more assessments in
the army, then I was able tolook at assessments a little bit
differently.
The first, I would say, kind ofresidency experience I had was
that of looking at brain injury,which I think makes sense if
(02:06):
you consider especially, youknow, being in the army and the
problems that we faced withinthe last 20 years in those
environments that we sent oursoldiers to.
So that required another robustset of assessments, learning
about them anyway.
And so then cognitivefunctioning right, I got that,
(02:29):
the tools that I needed toassess cognitive functioning.
So now you've got kind of likeemotional assessments, mental
health assessments, cognitivefunctioning assessments, you
know kind of tasks of dailyliving.
And then, whenever I went intothe world of operational
(02:50):
psychology, then assessmentsagain kind of opened up a new
arena for me in the in the realmof assessment selection for
high performing, high risk teamsand then beyond that personal
and professional development.
So in a nutshell, that's kindof my background with
assessments.
(03:10):
I've used them for a lot ofdifferent purposes and I think
that they are excellent tools.
Jay Johnson (03:16):
So I sensed just a little bit of they're excellent
tools.
What was the but that wasfollowing along beside that?
I kind of got this inclinationthat that may be coming next.
Dr. Barb Thompson (03:33):
So I just like, when real people are
paired along with the assessment, that are trained on the
assessment and how to reallyutilize the assessments, because
you know, as someone who's donethe work in creating a
research-backed assessment, thatthere goes a lot, goes into it,
(03:56):
and sometimes, when assessmentsare, you know, kind of emailed
out and take this, take that.
You know they can be harmless,it can be just for fun, but you
really want to be careful aboutthe way that, um, you introduce
a person to an assessment,because if I am learning, or I
feel like I'm learning,something that is true about
(04:18):
myself or I believe to be trueabout myself, that can have
certain consequences on the waythat I think, behave, or think,
believe and then behave.
And so for me, the hesitationis just that I think assessments
are best when paired withsomeone who's really familiar
with them.
Jay Johnson (04:34):
And I love that you bring that up.
One of my bigger challenges withassessments for many years and
I was certified in the NEO-PIR,which is one of the clinical
diagnostics for the big fivefactors in personality, as well
as a number of others here,there and wherever else and one
(04:57):
of the things that I thought wasreally interesting because a
lot of people they love to learnabout themselves or they love
to become self-aware, but thenthey sort of hold on to the
things that they end up gettingfrom these assessments.
So it's just like somebody goesand takes the DISC assessment
You're like oh well, I'm a highD and then immediately sort of
like starts to live thatidentity or just justify that
(05:21):
identity, even thoughbehaviorally maybe they could
make different choices.
But it's just like well, that'show I am, I scored a high D, so
now I'm just going to be directin every single thing that I
say and I think that that can beextraordinarily limiting.
So when you're talking aboutbeing paired with somebody to
(05:42):
sort of navigate that, what doesthat experience look like, barb
?
Dr. Barb Thompson (05:46):
Yeah, I don't think it's too complex.
I think that you have someoneon the end right that can say
okay, you took the you know 10,20, 30 minutes out of your own
time to take this assessment.
Now here's what we can learnfrom it.
And without that person on theother end, all of your questions
(06:07):
might not be answered by asimple report, or I've seen some
of these reports, and I knowyou have.
They can be really confusing,and so they can be.
Some of them use language thatis not language that we use
every day, and so there may bemisinterpretations or meaning
that's being missed or potentialthat's being missed or
(06:29):
something that you're justthinking flat out wrong about
when it comes to the assessment.
So I will say, too, that we doknow, especially from the
research with assessments likethe NEO, that reassessment is
nice, nice re-evaluation is nice, and I know probably all of our
(06:49):
listeners have gone throughdifferent phases of life where
we're early career, mid-career,late career, we're having
children or we're taking a kindof sabbatical.
All of these, we've lostsomeone close to us or something
close to us.
All of these big life events domake changes in us, and for
(07:11):
good reason.
You wouldn't want to staystatic right.
You learn and grow and youcontinue to do that throughout
your lifetime.
Have seen, you know, I'll givesomeone the same assessment they
had maybe five, six years priorand we'll learn new things.
We'll continue to learn howtheir environment, how their
experiences continue to shapethem and I think that carries a
(07:35):
lot of hope with it.
It may be that someone iscoming back because I know, you
know, we'll get into burnout,but because they're feeling
burned out or they're not in thebest place.
But a reevaluation, I think,still brings hope, because we
know that the brain is pliableand can continue to change with
(07:55):
the right resources and support.
Jay Johnson (08:14):
Staticity is something that I find to be
really interesting in relationto a lot of assessments, because
for so many of the assessments,we see something like looking
at the validity and reliabilityscales and the idea that, hey,
you know, if you take thisassessment and then six months
later you take the assessmentagain, you're going to have
virtually generally about thesame scores and it's like, but a
lot can happen in six months.
If you would have assessed mewith something let's call it
March 1st of 2020, and thenassessed me six months after of
(08:36):
being in isolation, you may havegotten a very, very different
set of results.
So how do we navigate somethinglike this?
Because, and and and as we usethis to kind of start digging
into burnout you know, we doknow, like Gabber Mate's
research, dr Mate's researchrecently has been talking about,
like hey, some of these issuesthat we're experiencing, such as
(08:58):
burnout, well, they're probablya result of some of the
different personality thingsthat we've been scripted with
when we were a kid and when wedeveloped, and you know, our
environment and so on and soforth.
How do you leverage sort ofthis understanding of the brain
that we have, thisneuroplasticity that we can
shift, that we can change, butthe sort of I don't know, I'm
(09:22):
going to call it the scientificneed for validity and
reliability in the scales Likehow do you balance that, barb?
Dr. Barb Thompson (09:29):
Yeah.
So we had a rule when I waslast doing assessment and
selection that we wanted peopleto reapply, because we did
believe that people can change,especially given challenges that
are right outside of theirlimits.
You know that's motivating.
We'll talk about motivation inregards to burnout, but if it
(09:51):
had been more than a year beforea person returned to assessment
selection, we would give theentire battery again, just
because it is exciting thathumans continue to grow and
change.
And I just think that, becausewe are so complex, isn't it nice
?
Isn't it nice that we can'tjust be put into a box for one
(10:13):
time and you're in that box yourwhole life?
I certainly don't want to beput in a box.
I don't think anyone elsereally has that desire either.
Jay Johnson (10:23):
And it's that's one of the most inspirational
pieces I think that I found inmy research, because I may have
mentioned this before, but myresearch was me search.
I wanted to figure out why I wasdoing what I was doing.
You know, how could I navigate?
Am I stuck being the personthat I was at the age of 21, 25,
29, 30 and yesterday, you know,turning 43, and I look back and
(10:47):
I go the Jay Johnson of fiveyears ago is a very, very
different Jay Johnson than ishere today, and getting an
understanding of sort of whereI'm at on those cycles through
assessments has been powerful.
Now the question that I thinkthat I would have in relation to
the battery of differentassessments that are available
(11:12):
what gives you a good indicationof how to select the right
assessment for the rightsituation?
Whether that is, hey, I'mtrying to assess selection
criteria for you know we talkeda lot about high performance
teams in the last one selectioncriteria for this or what would
(11:32):
be some things that we wouldwant to look out to say, hey,
this is going to tell us animportant aspect about whatever
the situation is how do youdetermine which one to use?
Dr. Barb Thompson (11:42):
Yeah, a lot of times it's just remaining
curious with the person that'sin front of you and having the
conversations.
You know it's really difficulton your own, even as a
psychologist or a behavioralscientist.
When you are looking atyourself, it's like the lens is
just a little too close.
And so when you're having thoseconversations with people who
are maybe stuck in a certainsituation or desire more or are
(12:07):
having a problem, then I thinkit's really important to ask
good questions and to listen towhat they're saying and remain
curious.
I know my brain immediatelystarts to look for answers and
solutions as far as whatassessment can I give them to
find out more information?
But a lot of times it's reallyin a curious conversation,
(12:30):
asking good questions and thentrying to get down to the root
of the matter, and then you canlook at all kinds of different
assessments, some more kind ofvalid than others, once you know
what does this person reallywant or really need out of this
interaction?
I know that's really vague, butthat's where I like to start.
Jay Johnson (12:56):
Well, I think that's so smart, right, and we
teach trainers and coaches hey,you really need to be audience
focused.
And by asking the rightquestions or listening, we know
because one of the rightquestions, or listening, we know
because one of the things.
I think that's maybefrustrating and, as you
mentioned, yes, I have createdan assessment.
That is not the end all be alland it's not the only assessment
(13:17):
that we deploy, because thereare different situations that
require different assessmentsthat look at different things.
But I often see us get stuckand be like this is the one,
this is the one assessment thatrules them all.
Dr. Barb Thompson (13:30):
It's like, uh , you know, and and typically,
like you said, your research wasB research.
Like typically, when anassessment really hits, like it
gives us insight that we value,then that's the assessment we
love the most and we want toshare it with everyone and I
think you know there's goodnessin that.
There's also goodness inknowing that there's a variety
(13:51):
of assessments because there's avariety of needs.
Jay Johnson (13:55):
And I think that when we get a better
understanding of those things,it really does.
You know all of the differentangles in which we can look.
Human behavior is so complexand, to your point, sticking
somebody in a box and saying,well, here you are, this is what
you are, this is your script,is probably not just limiting
but can be really, reallydamaging.
So let's dig into burnout Now.
(14:17):
When we were talking the lasttime, you are working with some
of the highest performing teamsin the entire world and I think
there's so much misconceptionaround the space of burnout.
You know some people are likehow can I be burned out?
You know, am I just not strongenough?
Am I not tough enough?
Do I not have the rightmentality?
You know we see so much aboutbeing able to build this
(14:42):
resilience and this tough.
You know this tough mindset, etcetera.
Barb, talk to me as somebodywho's working with probably some
of the toughest of the toughwhat is your experience with
burnout?
Dr. Barb Thompson (15:00):
Everyone experiences burnout at some
point or another, and I agree,they are so capable, so bright,
so driven and yet sometimes theconditions and we'll talk about
specifically what thoseconditions are it's just the
perfect storm, right, and itleads to this kind of emotional
exhaustion, like another termfor burnout is depressive
(15:22):
anxiety disorder, like it's allof the yucky things that we
don't want.
Anxiety disorder, like it's allof the yucky things that we
don't want, you know, wrappedinto one.
But overall it's just thisfeeling of I don't know why, but
I'm exhausted.
Just the thought of my worktypically is how we are when we
talk about burnout is.
It just makes me tired, youknow, and it's like this chronic
(15:47):
fatigue that also shows up inthis type of anxiety, like this
dread or having trouble sleeping.
So it's a mixture of these kindof what we what we
traditionally would see asdepressive and anxious symptoms.
But there's there's more,there's more to it.
So when you look at selfdetermination theory, it is
(16:10):
talking about how humans aremotivated and typically, if an
environment allows for autonomy,so a person to feel like they
have some sense of control orchoice, if they feel there's a
sense of competence, so theyfeel effective in their behavior
or their tasks, or they evenmight feel a sense of mastery
(16:34):
over what they're doing duringthe day.
And, lastly, they feelrelatedness, so they feel a
sense of belonging or they feelconnected to, like, the mission
or the people that they're doingthat mission with.
That is what that's theenvironment we want, or the
people that they're doing thatmission with, that's the
environment we want.
Jay Johnson (16:51):
And, for a number of different reasons, that
triangle can get thrown off andeven in the best of the best,
and one of the things that Iheard you say there that I think
is really fascinating I'm gonnaask you to go into it.
You say there that I think isis really fascinating.
I'm going to ask you to go intoit is.
I was just listening to theHuberman lab and he was
(17:13):
interviewing Dr Carrion and itwas just they were talking about
post-traumatic stress, injuryand symptoms and how those
symptoms from post-traumaticstress you know, injury show up
versus from depression, and howthose show up, and from
heightened anxiety and fromsituations of burnout, et cetera
(17:35):
.
Like we can experience thesesymptoms.
How do we know that we're inburnout and not in depressive
anxiety disorder, for example,or how do we?
What is the distinguishingcharacteristic Cause?
It's almost just like I knowhow I'm feeling inside, but how
do I quantify that or what wouldI look at?
(17:57):
So maybe, if we talk about someof those different conditions
that you had mentioned, what,what distinguishes me feeling
burned out versus maybe I'm justanxious or stressed or sad or
what?
How do we, how do we getthrough that?
Dr. Barb Thompson (18:12):
So when we we did start to measure it,
because, you know, especiallyafter COVID I think COVID was it
was this crazy combination of,you know, an unknown fear.
So I think everyone was feelinga lack of control or lack of
sense of control and autonomy.
So that part of the triangle,that piece of the triangle, was
(18:33):
already kind of tipping in adirection we didn't want it to
Right.
And then, with certain mandatesNow I'm just saying this from a
human perspective, not apolitical one at all Right, like
, sometimes rules are put inplace to, you know, to keep
everyone safe.
But I'm just saying that,especially in high performing
(18:54):
teams, when these people havemore or less earned their
autonomy and their freedom, andthen blanket compliance is
required, no matter what, thatagain gets that triangle really
tipping in the wrong direction.
But we saw it symptomatically aspeople not enjoying their work
(19:21):
as much.
We saw their drive decrease.
And then I think what the worldsaw too, and we did too we were
not, it was, it was not absentwas this quiet, quitting.
So you would show up at where,typically in the morning, like
for my place of work, I mean,the gym is super loud, guys are
(19:43):
getting there early, they'reworking out hard.
You know they're ready to facethe day like it's quiet there's
no one here.
People are coming in late, notshowing up at all right, or
going home early, so those werethe type of symptoms.
And then just lack ofexcitement, lack of connection
while they're at work.
So if you're thinking toyourself, oh wait, that sounds,
I mean, maybe not exactly likeme, but a little bit like me
(20:04):
then those are typically thesymptoms of burnout.
And the way that we measurethat is not just that emotional
component of the feelingexhausted or tired or just like
when you think of work, it'sjust this fatigue you cannot
explain.
That's the emotional piece ofit, but it's also just like a
lack of empathy.
And then it's isolation fromfrom either the people you serve
(20:26):
or you know the people that youwork with, and then a lack of
feeling like you've achievedanything.
You're like you can't pinpointthe tasks you're doing connected
to something good.
Jay Johnson (20:42):
Right.
So that's really where and it'sso funny that you say this,
because every singleorganization that I've ever
consulted they think that quietquitting is just on them Like I
don't understand.
It's just, you know, we haveall of this, we have this quiet
and it's just like.
No, this is a phenomenon thatis extending well beyond and
it's almost like at some pointin time it's like okay, listen,
(21:04):
you're not alone.
I've worked with NASA, I'veworked with Nikon, I've worked
with Ford, I've worked with allof these other entities and
they're experiencing the exactsame thing that you are, because
it's human and guess what?
You employ humans.
So I'd love to hear I don'tlove to hear it, because it is
(21:24):
one of those things whereobviously you don't want any
organization, any entity to beexperiencing this, things where
obviously you don't want anyorganization, any entity to be
experiencing this.
But it is nice to know that,hey, even in somewhere like the
military or somewhere where wewould expect that you know the
toughest of the tough, and so onand so forth, that they still
have that experience, because itdoes, it does it kind of
humanizes it for all of us andobviously we all need to
(21:46):
overcome it, we all need to sortof, you know, maybe not look at
it as the enemy, but I like totell people what is burnout
telling you, right Like, if youpretend burnout is your friend,
what is it communicating to you?
And I want to go to one of thethings that you said
specifically.
Purpose is what I heard, rightLike that the work that I'm
(22:10):
doing has meaning, that it'scontributing at a level that is
meaningful not only to myself,but to my legacy, to my team, to
the organization, to themission, whatever that might be.
How is it, you know, how is itthat when we experience sort of
that purpose, or when we seeourselves aligned with that
(22:31):
purpose, that it almost gives usthis superhuman capacity to
work 16 hours and feel likewe're in flow, but when we don't
have that, we work for 16minutes and we're like I am done
.
How does that play out in ourbrain, barb?
Dr. Barb Thompson (22:53):
like I am done.
How does that play out in ourbrain, barb?
Yeah, it's, it's um.
So I know a lot of people talkabout, like, uh, carrots and
sticks.
As far as motivating people,you know, and and I'm sure many
people who listen to thispodcast have heard the terms
extrinsic motivation ormotivators, versus intrinsic
motivation or or motivators, andso it is a continuum.
Extrinsic, completely extrinsicmotivators are things that are
(23:14):
basically in your environmentand just there to either reward
or punish you.
Um, can they get you going?
Like, will a child clean hisroom if you threaten them with
taking away something?
They love?
Probably, but will they do itwell?
Will they love to do it?
(23:34):
Probably not, right, and I'mjust taking, because that's an
easy example, right?
Jay Johnson (23:40):
Have everything under the bed, so that way I can
get back to Xbox right.
Dr. Barb Thompson (23:43):
Totally.
Yeah, everything looks great,but don't open the closet.
Now.
A lot of companies, though,when they're under pressure,
like they were for COVID, orquite like all of these kind of
really grand, oh gosh, justsituations and and experiences
(24:04):
that we were having, as you know, a world together, um, they can
get desperate and they lean onthese extrinsic motivators like
punishment and rewards, and anduh, people just aren't motivated
long term by extrinsic rewards.
Um, it would be probably easierif we were, but our brains
brains are not, they don't workthat way.
Now, as you go further towardsthe intrinsic, um end of the
(24:30):
spectrum, these are things thatwe find true enjoyment and
satisfaction in, and, um, onestep below that, maybe, um,
maybe we don't find, you're like, how am I supposed to find work
that I'm naturally, you know,enjoying?
It is out there, you're.
I think your assessment canhelp people with kind of finding
(24:53):
out what drives them as anindividual and and kind of to
what degree.
But just under, that would bean alignment with what you
believe or value to be important.
And so, when we're talkingabout this feeling of exhaustion
, I like to just, in my head,have an arrow that leads right
(25:14):
to examination much of it.
The feeling is awful, it feelsterrible, it feels new and
different, but it's not the endand you can, things can change.
In other words, and with thatassessment or examination, I
(25:38):
would say, like when people cometo me and we've had a lot of
them, this happens frequentlywhen people leave the military
as well because that trianglewas perfectly in place people,
they love a mission they caredabout and something they'd been
doing for a really long time, sothey felt really effective and
competent.
In any case, giving someassessments, getting some
(26:00):
insight and then making a planare some simple, really simple
ways that we can all start tofight burnout.
In this case, I do believe thata values exercise we can talk
about.
There are assessments that lookat what type of tasks give you
(26:20):
joy and energy.
So I, I like those.
You can also have aconversation about the specific
tasks that people actually enjoydoing that maybe other
teammates don't like.
They might look at and say,like I hate using Excel.
You're like, oh, I love it,like when the numbers line up
and everything works out justlike that.
You know, I'm not one of thosepeople, so it's hard for me to
talk about that task.
(26:40):
Yeah, but there are people outthere?
Right, there are.
We are different in that waythat some tasks during a day
bring us joy and energy and someof them strain us.
I think it's important to learnabout those because that starts
to get you some of this insightinto what is intrinsically
motivating you versusextrinsically motivating you.
And we want to get as close tointrinsic as we can because
(27:03):
that's what is like rocket fuelfor your motivation and it lasts
.
You know it's long termmotivation, and so a values
exercise would be just underkind of those tasks that give
you joint energy.
And then, ultimately, you dowant to learn about what drives
you, as you know, a human being,to learn about what drives you
as a human being, if you want tokind of keep the long view on.
(27:33):
I don't ever want to feel likeburnout, this burnout again,
right, and so what can I learnthat's really going to make a
difference in the way that Iapproach my environment or learn
from my environment, or evenadjust my environment, which I
did try to make.
I usually try to makeadjustments in the environment
first, like get the insight,let's see what we can do to
adjust your environment.
Maybe bring in some of theleadership, because wouldn't it
(27:53):
be nice to know that yourleaders know that triangle
autonomy, competence andrelatedness Because many times,
especially in smallerorganizations or on smaller
teams, they can be that missinglink, like for when people
aren't feeling a personalachievement or they're not
(28:14):
feeling that their tasks havepurpose right, or they're not
feeling like they have choiceabout what they do during the
day or when they do it.
Leaders can really get involvedin that way if they have this
education and make theenvironment a little bit more
flexible.
It is more complex that way,but hopefully it also leads to
more intrinsically motivatedpeople, which has endless
(28:37):
benefits.
Jay Johnson (28:38):
Well, and it's so interesting because I think that
you really bring in some greatinsight there and I think that
this is something that everytrainer, every coach can really
take away.
Oftentimes the extrinsicmotivators are necessary but not
sufficient for motivation.
Right Like I can't underpay youfor the rest of your life and
(29:00):
expect you to stay in this jobor anything else like that.
I can't you know, I can't giveyou unlimited PTO at the cost of
you know something else.
So these are necessary.
There's almost like a litmus ofand I know that there's some
pretty good literature thattalks about like, at certain
thresholds, that's as much joyor motivation that you're going
(29:21):
to get out of differentextrinsic type motivation tools,
carrots and sticks and thenyou're going to have resistance,
resentment, disengagement oranything else before you get
into you know, even somethinglike quiet quitting.
But that intrinsic side ofthings Now you know you had
mentioned the assessment that wedo, the behavioral elements one
(29:42):
.
One of the things that we foundand this was across a couple of
different studies is thatpeople that tend to have a
strong drive to bond were at ahigher propensity for
experiencing burnout andburnout-related symptoms.
Now, when we sat down and didsome interviewing with them now,
some of them were in thehealthcare space.
(30:03):
We know that the drive to bondis very, very prominent in
healthcare.
It's very, very prominent ineducation, particularly
frontline teachers.
One of the things that wasreally fascinating and when we
did a content analysis of theinterview and sort of like,
looked at the language used, itwas almost uniform.
Not only were they carryingaround their own emotions, but
(30:24):
they were carrying around theemotions of their team.
They were getting down onthemselves, feeling shame or
guilt that they weren't doingenough to bring other people up,
et cetera.
So when we think aboutsomething like burnout, what's
your experience maybe inthinking about?
because that relatedness, thatconnectedness, that we have if
we feel disconnected, thatobviously can drive different
(30:47):
burnout symptoms.
But is it possible that that'sa two-way street, Like if we
feel overly connected, that wealmost like absorb the other
exhaustion or the other energythat's around us?
What do you think on that?
Dr. Barb Thompson (31:00):
You know, I love that.
I didn't know that you had donethat research.
But I think what that pointsout is that when people have a
really high drive forconnectedness or relatedness,
you know, automatically theytake on this role of like I'm,
I'm the caretaker, I'm themotivator, and so what they have
(31:22):
now is a double edged sword.
When other people are feelingdown, they feel like their
personal achievement has gonedown too Right.
So that's two out of the threeof you know what we know to be
kind of like thatself-determination theory, that
they're not feeling competent intheir role to bring people
alongside or motivate or makethem feel good.
(31:43):
So that's kind of my take on it.
Jay Johnson (31:48):
Well, that makes a lot of sense, because let's
think about healthcare in a timeof COVID, when there was no
solution or when there was noopportunity.
I mean, we saw burnout scalesjust massively increase.
It's like, okay, well, now I'mnot competent in my job because
I can't solve this crisis.
And now I'm looking around andI'm seeing all of these other
people who so I think it'ssomething like 72% of frontline
(32:11):
nurses that have taken thebehavioral elements assessment
show water, the drive to bond,primary element.
So I mean you're talking almostthree, three, you know three
fourths Teachers actually hirefrontline teachers 78% of them
show.
So you're talking about twoindustries that definitely have
(32:32):
talked about experience burnout.
I didn't think about it'sbrilliant what you just said and
kind of gave me some insights.
I didn't think about themfeeling like I'm not successful
in what I'm doing, becauseteachers were having that same
struggle during COVID, like howcan I teach, how can I actually
connect with students, how can Ido this?
So it's not just therelatability, but it could also
(32:53):
be that sort of I'm not winningin my position either, or I'm
not being effective in thatposition.
Oh, that's insightful, allright.
So, barb, I know that we don'thave too much time here what are
some of the ways that you wouldencourage or help people make
that shift necessary to maybeget them on the right track for
(33:16):
reducing their burnout orburnout related symptoms?
Dr. Barb Thompson (33:19):
Yeah, I would say that some of them.
I'll just highlight them.
I think we've talked about allthe practical kind of tips that
I would give, but the first isjust to normalize that even
people at the very highestlevels, the bravest, strongest
people in the world, they havebeen burned out right.
They have felt burnout, justlike you.
So I think that's reallyimportant and cannot be
(33:41):
understated, that this is not ayou problem, this is just a
problem right?
Secondly, we know that one ofthe really important pieces to
motivation is relatedness.
So my advice would be no matterhow smart you are and how
driven you are, this is not aproblem you want to do alone,
(34:02):
because that's just not smart.
In this case, part of whathelps us feel motivated is that
connection and relatedness, andso when you're trying to solve
this problem, you need toinvolve other people.
And then, thirdly, I would saythat you and I have outlined
some tools that I know peoplewill try to Google on their own,
but it'd be great if you could,when you're involving people,
(34:25):
just involve people that know orhave experience, and I think
that your time will not bewasted.
So, examination, include otherpeople, take an assessment or
two to get some insight and thenmake a plan, just like you
would make a plan for somethingelse, and we know that these
(34:45):
things work.
Jay Johnson (34:47):
Such incredible insight, and thank you again,
barb, for coming back on theshow.
I think this was something soimportant to talk about because
we as trainers, as coaches andorganizational leaders feel it,
but so do our teams and thepeople that are sitting across
from us, and we know the impactof burnout on learning, on
growing, on effectiveness in theworkplace, so your insights
(35:11):
have been so incredibly powerfulhere today.
I just want to say thank youagain for being here with us.
Dr. Barb Thompson (35:17):
Thank you.
I am really excited for peopleto hear this conversation and
hopefully they'll have morequestions for you to just keep
diving into.
I think that it is a reallyimportant topic and we shouldn't
stop talking about it justbecause in the mass media we're
not talking about it as much aswe were in 2022.
(35:38):
I think it's still a problem.
So thanks for having me.
Jay Johnson (35:41):
Thank you, barb, and we'll look forward to
talking again, hopefully soon,here on the Talent Forge, where
we are shaping the future oftraining and development.
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