March 28, 2025 • 37 mins
How do you turn mandatory corporate training from a dreaded box-checking exercise into an engaging experience that actually changes behavior? The answer lies in strategic storytelling.
In this eye-opening episode, Aleya Harris, a strategic storytelling consultant, reveals how the same storytelling frameworks used in marketing can revolutionize leadership development and corporate training. Drawing from her background as a marketing executive and entrepreneur, Aleya shares how she accidentally discovered the power of storytelling in building high-performing teams and authentic leadership.
Whether you're designing onboarding programs, leadership development initiatives, or mandatory compliance training, this episode offers practical strategies to engage participants as active heroes in their own learning journey rather than passive recipients of information.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
We've got a really specialguest here today, Aleya Harris.
Welcome to the show.
Aleya Harris (00:13):
Thank you so much for having me, Jay.
I am super happy to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:17):
Well, I am super happy for you to be here,
because I think the audience isgoing to take away some really
amazing concepts in relation tostorytelling and a number of
other things, so why don't weget the audience up to speed on
you?
How did you get into talentdevelopment?
What are you working on and youknow?
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Aleya Harris (00:37):
Absolutely so.
I am a self-proclaimedstrategic storytelling
consultant, so I help people usestories to reach the highest
versions of themselves and tobuild themselves up as better
leaders and better members of acollaborative culture.
So I got into that by accident.
So I was a marketer, marketingexecutive, entrepreneur and I've
(01:01):
always had a knack for buildinggood teams.
People that have worked for mecontinue to either follow me
from company to company or theyhave continued to want to be
mentored by me and when, I it'sa great sign, right, I know it's
better than me just saying I'mreally good at this and it's
(01:22):
like how do you know?
Because no one ever wants totalk to you ever again.
No, I promise people like myleadership style and so I
started asking, like well, in anon you know ego pumping way,
why, why is it that you like myleadership style?
And they said things well,you're authentic, you have great
(01:46):
energy, you make me feel like Ican do anything.
Um, and I feel motivated andsupported and I said, oh, that's
good, and I'm like how the heckdo I do that?
because I couldn't reallyarticulate how the how?
So I started paying attentionto myself as I was building
(02:07):
myself as a storytelling thoughtleader and I realized that, duh
, of course that's what I do.
I use storytelling frameworksto build people up, to help them
realize where they are in theirindividual stories, what the
general story is of what we'retrying to accomplish together,
what their role is, what thepitfalls are, how they can
(02:27):
overcome, giving them the toolsthey need to play their
proverbial dragons on theirhero's journey.
And in that process, I decidedto lean in and develop
frameworks that I use for notonly differentiation, but I
realize that something that youwould use as a storytelling
(02:50):
device to stand out from amarketing perspective or to
build trust in a salesperspective is the same type of
storytelling that you would useto help people understand why
you, as a human being, are notso different from them as a
human being, and what are thesame human things that we value
together and how can we go on ashared journey rather than
(03:13):
parallel journeys that neverintersect.
Jay Johnson (03:17):
I love that Aleya, and there's a couple of things
that I'm going to dig in.
Number one is some of thoseframeworks, but first of all,
the fact that you said I kind ofgot into this space on accident
.
I can't tell you how manyguests, and myself included, all
kind of found ourselves intothat talent development space by
accident.
But something that you know asyou bring up this concept of
(03:40):
storytelling my background beingin psychology, neuroscience and
looking at sort of like ourevolution as a species on this
planet we started with teachingand training literally through
storytelling.
I mean, this is how differentknowledge was passed along and
everything else.
So when we think about the HRand trainers and coaches that
(04:03):
are listening here, how do youessentially build your different
trainings or coachingopportunities?
How do you build that storyinto it?
Or how do you build thatstorytelling into it?
Aleya Harris (04:16):
The first thing that you need to do is to
realize that, as the storyarchitect and the story creator,
you are also part of the storybecause you are part of your
company.
So most people forget aboutthat as the first step and they
go in and they're like I'm fromcorporate and I'm here to help.
Right, awesome, thank you somuch.
(04:42):
It said nobody on the otherside of that speech.
Yeah, you're moving to think ofyourself as sitting in a circle
(05:04):
with everyone else, where yourstory also contributes to the
collective.
That means that you have to geta little bit vulnerable.
You have to be able to seeyourself as a fallible human who
has made mistakes, to learnfrom them, and because of that,
that is what makes you superqualified to get your team
(05:26):
through whatever challenge ishappening right now.
If you just approach theconversation as I am perfect,
this plan is perfect.
You have not co-created orcollaborated in this plan at all
, but I am going to shut downyour throat from on high.
I think that we know how thatends and it's not well.
Jay Johnson (05:48):
And I think we've seen that from a number of
organizations or organizationalcultures where it is sort of
like oh, now I'm going to ask aquestion here because I think in
some cases you do have apopulation of employees that
seem to be looking to theleadership for the vision, for
(06:10):
everything else like that, andsort of want that guidelines.
Can you talk about the conceptsof co-creation right, where the
leadership may feel obligatedto provide that vision, that
direction or whatever it is, andwhile the you know employee
base or the team or whomever mayfeel that it's the leadership's
(06:32):
responsibility, how do wecreate the conditions for
co-creation when each side isalready stepping into this sort
of role or this normativenarrative?
Aleya Harris (06:44):
Don't think of your role as a hierarchy role,
even though it is.
Think of your roles as skillsbase and what you all bring to
the table.
So, for example, the IvoryTower folks, probably you who
are listening to this podcastyou have a leadership role and
that means that you have whatmuch more in-depth view of
(07:06):
financials and a broader view ofthe business.
But you're not in theday-to-day and so for any wide
reaching plan to be successful,you need someone who has
in-depth knowledge of theday-to-day.
Well, guess what?
That's probably the team memberthat you're about to tell this
plan to.
So what you might do is fromsay, from where we are at our
(07:27):
financials are telling us thiswe're trying to move in this
direction.
Here's the overall vision, butwhat we need your thought in is
what would this look like on aday-to-day basis?
Can you help inform from whatyour skill set is?
Think about it this way Imagineyou all are Dumbledore and
you're talking to harry potter.
(07:48):
I don't know how well you knowharry potter, but at some point
in time they're walking aroundtrying to find these horcruxes
to kill.
He who must not be named.
And dumbledore needs help, andhe literally needs this stuff.
He needed help.
It wasn't like, you know, likeI have a toddler and'm like help
me in the kitchen, and it'sreally just to avoid her from
(08:08):
getting into whatever she'sgetting into in the living room,
like she's not actually helpingme.
He really needed support and sohe brought Harry with him to
help him out, to find a horcruxand do the things.
And then Dumbledore actuallyends up being wounded and Harry
was integral to that experience.
They were a partnership and ofcourse everyone knows that
(08:29):
Dumbledore was the most powerfulwizard in the world and Harry's
this like student, like that,was never in question.
But Dumbledore was wise enoughto check his ego and realize
that it's about a skill set andan experience and an exposure
conversation rather than ahierarchical one.
The same thing goes for thestorytelling.
Jay Johnson (08:51):
Yeah, and I like that approach because I mean it
is really kind of getting backinto that concepts of adult
learning and involving somebodyin that learning journey and
involving them into their ownstory, because while my story I
am the main character of my ownstory, everybody that's sitting
in that room is the maincharacter of their own story.
(09:13):
So them sitting there and sortof just getting told something
versus them actively engaging orbeing involved in the
co-creation of the knowledgeseems to be a really powerful
way for us to do that.
Now I want to dig back intosomething that you said a little
bit ago about the authenticityand the vulnerability, because I
think this is something that'soften scary for a trainer or for
(09:36):
a coach or even for an HRperson to say I've been there or
I've experienced that and Ifailed right, like sometimes a
trainer or whomever that's putat the front of the room or even
a leader.
The expectation is all this youknow we put all this pressure
on ourselves that we need toknow everything, we need to feel
everything.
We can't look like we're.
You know that we don't belongthere.
(09:58):
Imposter syndrome starts toplay into the equation and it
blocks us from really gettinginto that vulnerable space.
How might we be able tonavigate that more effectively?
Aleya.
Aleya Harris (10:09):
The first thing that I want you to ask yourself
is what is your role truly?
You've told yourself, and fedinto the popular belief, that
you are the sage on stage.
You're the one who needs tohave all of the answers.
You put together the PowerPointand the workshop materials and
so you must know everything.
(10:30):
And I posit to you that that'sactually not your role.
Your role is to deliver anoutcome.
An outcome is that they learnsomething, their behaviors
change, they've had a mentalparadigm shift.
That's what you're trying todeliver.
And in order to best deliverthat outcome, people need to
(10:51):
participate in their owntransformation.
They cannot do that if theyfeel like the transformation's
already done for them andthey're just sitting there, eyes
glazed over, wondering whenlunch is happening.
That's what happens when youhave a sage on stage saying I
know everything in here, justtake notes and do this.
They need to explore, they needto understand that this is a
(11:14):
road that has been traveledbefore, so that they can feel
like you know what you're doing.
And it is the pitfalls thatgive you the credibility.
If someone says to you we'regoing to implement a new
performance management systemI've implemented 10 performance
management systems before, neverhad a problem, you're like,
(11:36):
okay, that makes me feel great.
But in the back of your mindyou're also like but what if we
have a problem?
What if something goes wrong?
That relatable factor yeah,they've never done problems
before, They've only doneperfection before.
So if we have a problem,they're not going to know what
(11:58):
to do.
Jay Johnson (11:59):
Right Now.
How do we balance that, though?
Because we don't want to comein and be like I have done 10
performance management thingsand I screwed up every single
one of them.
They're going to go, you'reright.
So we know that's.
You know.
We know that that is obviouslynot how we want to show up or
how we want to perform.
We know that we don't want tobe the sage on stage.
(12:20):
How do we, how do we navigatethat balance, that delicate
balance of I share enough, butnot too much, or I'm sharing the
right kind of vulnerabilities,and not telling you all about a
particular aspect that maybe isnot related to this.
Um, and I'm going to dig backinto the results thing, cause,
that's obviously something Ireally, really put forward, but
(12:43):
let's navigate this.
How do we fine tune that spaceof vulnerability for it to be
the appropriate space?
Aleya Harris (12:50):
You share a story of vulnerability because you are
wanting to connect theirproblems to your passion and
experience.
You share a crisis story toarticulate a path forward.
It's either a common crisis,one that they're feeling, one
that they're experiencing, orone that you see in their new
(13:11):
future, or one that you'retrying to get them to avoid.
You see them heading for atrain wreck and you're trying to
reroute the tracks.
The purpose is not to justshare willy-nilly.
That's why I call myself astrategic storytelling
consultant, because it's allasking yourself what is the
(13:33):
reason for sharing this story?
What am I trying to get them tounderstand, believe or know
that they don't know now, sothat they again can participate
in their own transformation?
Where are they stuck, or whereare they about to get stuck, and
how can me telling a story helpthem understand that they're
(13:55):
not alone, that this stickingpoint is totally overcomable,
and I am the perfect person totell them how to overcome it.
And here are the three steps toovercome it.
This is what we're going to do,yeah.
Jay Johnson (14:07):
Well, and I like it because you brought it back to
the area that I was going totalk about the results, right,
the outcomes.
What outcomes are we actuallygoing for?
How are we measuring thoseoutcomes, what do they look like
, and really making sure thatthe vulnerability matches there,
that it's not just a story forstory's sake, but there's
actually a purpose behind thestory.
So something that we often pushhere is knowledge without
(14:31):
action is a failed training asfar as I'm concerned, because if
you're not actually changingthe behaviors towards a business
outcome, you're not gettingresults and you're a luxury and
not a necessity which all innecessity right, so let's talk
about that.
How do we relate storytelling tothe actual results focused
(14:53):
strategies that a business wants?
You know, a business comes inand says Aleya, I need you to
put together a communicationstraining because our team's not
great at customer service orwhatever else it is.
How do we approach that from astorytelling slash, design,
development, implementation.
Can you walk us through alittle bit of that process?
Aleya Harris (15:14):
Absolutely.
First, you need to know whatthe story is.
Story is a sense makingmaking,clarification and
emotion-driving device.
It's the way that our brainsalready work and it allows us to
understand concepts andinternalize them and match them
with our current emotions, whichcauses movement.
(15:35):
That's what motivation is.
So the reason why you're usingstory in the first place is
because you are trying to dowhat you said create some
movement, create some change,get people off their butts and
doing something in the firstplace.
And the way I like to do thatis through my story-driven
leadership framework.
(15:56):
It often happens where there arepeople are disconnected or they
have a lack of self-awarenessand they have challenges in
bringing people either togetheror bringing people on board to
an idea in the generalpopulation don't understand what
(16:21):
it means for their life, andthen they don't understand how
to follow the breadcrumbs fromwhere they are now to where
you're trying to get them to go.
So the first thing I like to dois to get real and to have a
moment of recognition of wherewe are, what the current
narratives are that we'retelling ourselves and we're
saying collectively,intentionally or unintentionally
(16:41):
, and what our biases are for oragainst action.
So this involves things likeexcavating current stories,
mapping biases to currentbeliefs and behaviors and
revealing how those personalexperiences are shaping the
world that we're in.
So we have those aha moments ofoh my goodness, no wonder why
(17:05):
we're stuck, no wonder why thisis not going to work, no wonder
why we are here, because we'redoing all of these things and
we're telling ourselves thesestories.
Jay Johnson (17:16):
Can I give an example of I think and help me
understand if I'm wrong, but Ithink during COVID, right, and
as CEO of my company, I've got ateam of 14 amazing, amazing,
awesome individuals.
A lot of times and this wassomething that I would say in my
leadership journey or myleadership cycle, I would often
(17:38):
be the problem solver, the chiefproblem solver, right Like so
it would be oh, let's do this,let's come up with this and
everything else.
During COVID I mean, it was sonovel and things that occurred
it was one of those where Ithink my team kind of expected
like, okay, what's the vision?
And this was my approach.
I, literally in our all teamsmeeting, I said, okay, I know
(18:00):
that in the past it's been oneof those hey, what's the
direction, what's the vision,jay?
And usually I've had some kindof idea.
But, team, I'm going to beperfectly honest with you, I
have absolutely no clue, rightright, I'm just as lost in this
space as you are.
So this today is not going to be.
Here's what we're going to doin our vision.
Here's today is going to be.
(18:20):
Helped me come up with someideas of how we're going to
navigate this forward together.
And so like, in that moment Iknew that the story was Jay's
going to have an answer, ormaybe Jay has an answer, or he's
got an idea or a direction.
But shifting that story,calling that story out, is that
kind of what you're speaking tohere, or is there a different
(18:42):
way that that could have beenapproached?
What are your thoughts on that,aliyah?
Aleya Harris (18:45):
I think that you did a great job approaching that
, and that's part of it, butthat's almost just like the
beginning of it, because then itwould go deeper in.
Well, what are you team membersthinking now?
What is a story you're tellingyourself about the current COVID
situation?
That it's impossible I alwaysuse fairytale analogies because
(19:06):
people can understand them thatthe dragon is unslayable, that
this is not a journey worthgoing on.
What do you think?
And then you hear the stories,probably write them down.
Do some group sharing?
Oh, okay, Now that we'reunderstanding where we are,
maybe we pull some themes out.
This is where we are.
Will this current thoughtprocess help us solve this
(19:30):
problem?
And if it won't, what part ofthis do we need to replace with
a better story?
And then how do we go aboutdoing that?
So if we're like COVID isunsolvable problem, let's just
close the doors now and saveourselves headache right, Like
let's say that that's what cameout.
Hopefully that wasn't, butlet's say that we're going home.
(19:52):
And then this is where you'relike when do I lead and when do
I not lead?
This is when you, jay, you comein and you say, well, so we're
not going to do that.
What my vision is that theultimate goal, the ultimate
reward here if the night goes onthis quest is for us to make
the same amount of profit thisyear as last year.
(20:15):
That is my challenge to you.
That's like at the beginning ofthe fairy tale when the good
fairy says here's your quest,young grasshopper, whatever.
So then you're like so now wehave a disconnect.
How do we match this?
Your story is this.
The story that we need to tellis that we can do this and this
(20:36):
is a solvable challenge.
So how do we make that story up?
This is a solvable challenge.
I feel confident about this.
We deserve to make results,regardless of what's happening
in the world.
We are fully resourced.
How do we break that down?
Using a story structure to seewhat we are missing in our
current mentality.
(20:57):
That needs to match our futurestory so we can get the results
that we're after.
Jay Johnson (21:02):
Okay.
Aleya Harris (21:02):
Does that?
Jay Johnson (21:03):
make sense?
Yeah, absolutely, so, all right, so now I've got a better
picture of this this sort ofentry, entry space.
You were continuing on with thestory.
So once the once the leaderidentifies the stories, looks at
that sort of identifies wherethe actual outcome or what the
end result ultimately is.
Where do we go from there,Alaya?
Aleya Harris (21:24):
Then it's time to get clear.
Then you're like okay, we'regoing to adapt, get our shifted
perspective and challenge thosecurrent narratives and explore
the what-if scenarios to uncovernew possibilities.
Then we're also going toclarify so we're going to
transform and shift thosenarratives into actionable,
value-driven narratives.
(21:46):
So you would go through likewell, it's a very different
thing to say we're going to makethe same profit as last year.
There's no, that's aclose-ended statement.
You're like all right, boss,well, I guess I'll get on that
(22:10):
Versus.
What if we made the same profitas last year?
What would that take?
What if we felt super empoweredright now?
What would that look like?
What if COVID lasts forever andsocial distancing never ends?
What would that look like?
And you invite curiosity as aclarification device.
What you're trying to do is tocircumvent the fear, the
(22:32):
stagnation, the limiting beliefsthat us as humans hold hold.
Often, when we come together,we treat humans as widgets or
robots, rather than actual humanbeings who have emotions and
thought processes that go intothese very professional sounding
big boy and girl documents thatwe create, when, in reality, to
(22:54):
get change actually to happen,you have to treat people as
humans.
And so when you have those whatif scenarios and there's
clarification scenarios you getthe team to begin to see and
question where they are andimagine for themselves a better
vision which, coincidentally,shock and awe will most likely
(23:17):
align with the one that youalready gave them.
But this is what I'm tellingyou.
It's about them participatingin the story as a collective
hero.
Think like robin hood and hismerry men, or like gladys knight
and the pips, or like beyonceand destiny's child.
Like it's everyone togetheryou're beyonce in this scenario.
(23:38):
By the way, jane needs child.
Like it's everyone togetherYou're Beyonce in this scenario.
By the way.
Jay, everyone, you're verywelcome.
Highest praise I can giveanybody.
I take that You're moving as acollective because they came
into this retreat scenariomeeting as 10-ish individuals.
Your job is to get them to cometogether as a team with a
(24:00):
shared perspective, moving inthe same direction, creating a
story that is transformingtowards success and away from
failure.
So then, the third step is youget connected.
So you've gotten real, you'vegotten clear, and then you get
connected, and this is when youget to evolve.
You've gotten clear on what thenarrative needs to be, where
(24:21):
you're going.
Start implementing storysessions in your all-hands
meeting you have, maybe in yoursales meetings you have okay,
let's do a sales pipeline reviewand then also let's tell the
(24:46):
story of how we would have donethis before and how now we're
doing it differently becausewe're participating in a new
narrative and you provide storystructure snippets to everyday
things that they're alreadydoing.
This is lifted and lovinglycollaborated with the atomic
(25:08):
habit habit methodology.
If you've ever read atomichabits, right, right.
Jay Johnson (25:14):
For those of you paying attention at home, read
Atomic Habits.
James Clear is the author.
It's an incredible book.
Yep, incredible book.
Aleya Harris (25:22):
And one of the things that he mentions in that
book is the best way to create anew habit is to attach it to
something that you already aredoing.
You're already having all handsmeeting.
Why not add 10 minutes forstorytelling?
Why not structure the meetingdifferently?
(25:43):
That relates now to your newnarrative, where you talk about
in the beginning, and it's everymeeting.
These are the new problemswe're trying to solve.
This is the narrative we'retrying to tell.
How have you helped today?
Right, have someone else comeon and talk about what they've
done that supported this newnarrative?
That's how we create change.
(26:05):
That's how we build intentionalculture, because culture is
built whether you areintentional about it or not.
So let's build it intentionallyand you then are building also
better leaders, because, inorder to have someone telling a
story, guess what has to happenon the other side?
Someone listening to the storyand that's one of the things
(26:27):
that leaders don't do enough of,in my opinion is listening,
because like you said, we'relistening to the stories that
are surrounding them, becausethey feel like what you said I
have to have all the answers, soI can't listen.
I got to talk, just likeeverybody's grandmama said.
Jay Johnson (26:40):
You got two ears in the organization and you know
if I'm in the leadershipposition and I'm trying to
create this co-created,co-created vision of what if and
(27:01):
really kind of looking towardsthis direction.
Let's say that and I alwayspick on poor security trainings
right, like the one thateverybody has to go to no one
has a choice, no one wants to bethere.
They're clicking through orthey're, you know a lot of times
.
They're online now, so you justhit the button as fast as you
possibly can and then you okay,let's, let's talk about that,
(27:23):
because every organization hassome level of security training,
whatever that is.
That could be safety, thatcould be something that it's the
vegetables Sometimes you got toeat them.
Aleya Harris (27:34):
You got to do it that it's the vegetables.
Jay Johnson (27:36):
sometimes you got to eat them, you got to do it.
Nobody's really looking for it.
It's not the dessert course.
How can we utilize, maybe, thisframework, this story framework
, to make some of those types ofthings where it's almost the
mundane or the um, you know, thenecessary but not exciting type
ventures?
How might we be able toincorporate this concept into
(27:57):
that?
Aleya Harris (27:59):
Jay, I will tell you.
Story makes everything sexy, sochallenge accepted.
Thank you very much.
The first thing you have to askyourself before you even get
into story structure is whyshould anybody care about this
thing?
Right and not?
Why should they care?
Because they're good Cause I'ma company man, like you know,
not in that sense.
But why should they?
(28:20):
Why should Sarah care?
Why should Jack care?
Why should they care asindividuals?
Jay Johnson (28:25):
Yeah.
Aleya Harris (28:26):
Start from that place and then build the story
from there.
So let's say that you're justlike a normal I don't know ad
agency, like you, don't.
You're not like doinggovernment secret stuff, where
it's like ultimate tip topsecurity, but like normal
security, like you got a badgein and out, yep Right, and
you're trying to figure out,okay, why should Sarah care
(28:48):
about using her badge properlyand checking in guests properly
and all of that stuff?
Well, sarah should care becauseall of her stuff could get
stolen from her desk.
Sarah should care because then,if we are in a lockdown, she
might not be able to get to herfamily on time.
Sarah should care because ifthey steal her computer, all of
(29:11):
the work that's on it, that herproject that she's been working
on for three months, is now gone.
That's why Sarah should care,and we often don't think about
why Sarah and individual careshould care.
We say things like as a goodsteward of company resources,
you too should use.
Jay Johnson (29:28):
You know what I?
Aleya Harris (29:29):
mean Like and everyone's like don't put the
company at risk.
Jay Johnson (29:34):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Aleya Harris (29:37):
Don't put Sarah at risk, and I know that we don't
often like to think of peoplelike this, but everyone's a
narcissist with short attentionspans.
That's how I talk to everyonewhen I'm developing something,
because although everyone,especially you, know you have
great intentions and maybe theydo love your company, would do
anything for your company.
They believe your companycolors the end of the day,
(29:58):
everyone is still makingdecisions based on themselves.
If they have to decide betweenyour company or taking care of
their aging parent that needsfull-time care, guess who's
gonna win?
It is not your company, it'snot and it and it shouldn't be.
And if it is, I have someserious questions right.
Jay Johnson (30:20):
Right, we have.
We have different stories totell at that point.
Aleya Harris (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, something's going on there, that
little funky donkey.
So that's the first place thatyou just need to be in the
headspace of before you evenstart telling the story.
Then you go through theframework, you think about okay,
what is the moment where I needher to recognize the current
narrative?
Let's talk about Sarah, becausewhen I develop things, I like
(30:43):
to have one person in my mind.
It's probably an archetypeperson, but one person in my
mind, sarah, the advertisingaccount director, who is super
busy but a lot of high valuework that she's doing.
Jay Johnson (30:57):
Going back to those marketing days with the buyer
persona, aren't we Aleya?
Aleya Harris (31:01):
We are.
We are, and that is actuallybecause I mean I'm sorry I
probably should have saidspoiler alert to all these
listeners I am not an HRprofessional.
Did anybody get that?
I haven't been a marketer,however, for 15 years.
That's why I'm so good at this,because I don't think like an
HR professional.
I haven't been indoctrinatedwith you people.
(31:22):
I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.
I can actually be the one thatlooks at the Kool-Aid and be
like wasn't that supposed to bered?
It's kind of orange.
Did anybody notice that?
That's me.
And so I use multidisciplinaryways, from psychology to human
(31:43):
design, to marketing andstorytelling.
I apply it to HR.
So, yes, good eye Buyerpersonas Can't help it.
Can't help myself.
So you of sarah and you're likewhat is sarah currently telling
herself?
And I need sarah to do step oneget real with what that is and
(32:03):
have a recognition aha moment ofwhat exactly are her biases and
what is she saying now.
So that's the first part of thetraining to get sarah to
realize where.
So that's the first part of thetraining to get Sarah to
realize where she is at.
The first part of the trainingis not here is your badge.
Red badges mean this.
Green badges mean that Alwayslook out for the person behind
(32:27):
you Like come on man.
Jay Johnson (32:29):
It's about.
Aleya Harris (32:30):
Where are you at now and why is that helping or
hurting you as Sarah and also usas the company?
Then you get clear.
You want her to have thatshifted perspective.
You have what if?
Scenarios in the training.
What if you allowed someone totailgate behind you using their
badge?
That's not supposed to be there.
(32:50):
They come in and they stealyour computer there.
They come in and they stealyour computer.
They come in and they havemaybe come in on your badge and
they do something funky and itshows that you did it and you
have no way of proving that itwasn't you.
Yep, what?
What happened then, sarah?
And so now, all of a sudden,sarah sorry, my trainings get a
(33:12):
little flassy sometimes so thenthen you're getting Sarah to go.
Oh, oh, wait a minute, hold ona second.
This is actually important tome and the company and I should
be paying attention.
You're building in, buying, andthen you get them to clarify
and then you build it into thedaily ritual so it doesn't just
end when she gets thecertificate at the end of the
(33:36):
virtual training.
Right, you have maybe pop-upsafety checks or maybe you have
a.
I don't know if this isactually.
You can do this.
See, this is when my non-HRself comes in.
Maybe one day someone takesSarah's computer, like in HR
right, and you're like, noeverybody, someone took sarah's
(33:56):
computer.
Wow, could this have happened?
and you have like a, almost likea fire drill, basically safety
fire drill yep so you haveexperiences that embed it into
normal ways of working, orsometimes slightly abnormal, to
get it to be a lived experiencerather than just something
that's clicked through.
Jay Johnson (34:18):
Alayah, this is incredible and I love the
concepts here.
If our audience was going toget a hold of you, how would
they reach out to you?
Aleya Harris (34:26):
You would go to evolutioncollectivecom
evolutioncollectivecom and youwould click schedule a call and
we could talk all about it,because this is what I'm
passionate about is usingstorytelling to help people be
better, come together and bemore productive, so I'd love to
talk to you about that, ifthat's your cup of tea and this
(34:48):
is the reason that I love thisso much is because I think a lot
of times when we're in thatdesign phase, when we're in that
delivery phase, we often forgetabout the storytelling aspect.
Jay Johnson (34:57):
You know, it's like I've only got an hour, I've got
to deliver as much content oras much knowledge as I can and
I've got to really tell them whythey've got to do this.
And, in a bow at the sort ofthe end of the hour is, if we
really want to get somebody tochange their behavior, we've got
(35:19):
to get them to be a part of thestory, and the tactics I think
that you shared here today willreally help us do that.
Aleya Harris (35:26):
Yes, I know they will, cause they have.
I am fully confident and I wasso excited about it because what
if, what if people actuallyliked your trainings?
Jay Johnson (35:39):
What if that next security training was something
that shifted and saved your butt?
Aleya Harris (35:46):
What if?
What if?
Jay Johnson (35:48):
Well, I love it.
Thank you, Aleya.
I really appreciate you beinghere and for sharing your wisdom
and your approach to this.
I think it was really, reallyhelpful and definitely something
for our audience to take away.
So thank you again.
Aleya Harris (36:02):
Thank you for having me, Jay.
Jay Johnson (36:04):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we are shaping the future
of training and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
We've got a really specialguest here today, Aleya Harris.
Welcome to the show.
Aleya Harris (00:13):
Thank you so much for having me, Jay.
I am super happy to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:17):
Well, I am super happy for you to be here,
because I think the audience isgoing to take away some really
amazing concepts in relation tostorytelling and a number of
other things, so why don't weget the audience up to speed on
you?
How did you get into talentdevelopment?
What are you working on and youknow?
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself.
Aleya Harris (00:37):
Absolutely so.
I am a self-proclaimedstrategic storytelling
consultant, so I help people usestories to reach the highest
versions of themselves and tobuild themselves up as better
leaders and better members of acollaborative culture.
So I got into that by accident.
So I was a marketer, marketingexecutive, entrepreneur and I've
(01:01):
always had a knack for buildinggood teams.
People that have worked for mecontinue to either follow me
from company to company or theyhave continued to want to be
mentored by me and when, I it'sa great sign, right, I know it's
better than me just saying I'mreally good at this and it's
(01:22):
like how do you know?
Because no one ever wants totalk to you ever again.
No, I promise people like myleadership style and so I
started asking, like well, in anon you know ego pumping way,
why, why is it that you like myleadership style?
And they said things well,you're authentic, you have great
(01:46):
energy, you make me feel like Ican do anything.
Um, and I feel motivated andsupported and I said, oh, that's
good, and I'm like how the heckdo I do that?
because I couldn't reallyarticulate how the how?
So I started paying attentionto myself as I was building
(02:07):
myself as a storytelling thoughtleader and I realized that, duh
, of course that's what I do.
I use storytelling frameworksto build people up, to help them
realize where they are in theirindividual stories, what the
general story is of what we'retrying to accomplish together,
what their role is, what thepitfalls are, how they can
(02:27):
overcome, giving them the toolsthey need to play their
proverbial dragons on theirhero's journey.
And in that process, I decidedto lean in and develop
frameworks that I use for notonly differentiation, but I
realize that something that youwould use as a storytelling
(02:50):
device to stand out from amarketing perspective or to
build trust in a salesperspective is the same type of
storytelling that you would useto help people understand why
you, as a human being, are notso different from them as a
human being, and what are thesame human things that we value
together and how can we go on ashared journey rather than
(03:13):
parallel journeys that neverintersect.
Jay Johnson (03:17):
I love that Aleya, and there's a couple of things
that I'm going to dig in.
Number one is some of thoseframeworks, but first of all,
the fact that you said I kind ofgot into this space on accident
.
I can't tell you how manyguests, and myself included, all
kind of found ourselves intothat talent development space by
accident.
But something that you know asyou bring up this concept of
(03:40):
storytelling my background beingin psychology, neuroscience and
looking at sort of like ourevolution as a species on this
planet we started with teachingand training literally through
storytelling.
I mean, this is how differentknowledge was passed along and
everything else.
So when we think about the HRand trainers and coaches that
(04:03):
are listening here, how do youessentially build your different
trainings or coachingopportunities?
How do you build that storyinto it?
Or how do you build thatstorytelling into it?
Aleya Harris (04:16):
The first thing that you need to do is to
realize that, as the storyarchitect and the story creator,
you are also part of the storybecause you are part of your
company.
So most people forget aboutthat as the first step and they
go in and they're like I'm fromcorporate and I'm here to help.
Right, awesome, thank you somuch.
(04:42):
It said nobody on the otherside of that speech.
Yeah, you're moving to think ofyourself as sitting in a circle
(05:04):
with everyone else, where yourstory also contributes to the
collective.
That means that you have to geta little bit vulnerable.
You have to be able to seeyourself as a fallible human who
has made mistakes, to learnfrom them, and because of that,
that is what makes you superqualified to get your team
(05:26):
through whatever challenge ishappening right now.
If you just approach theconversation as I am perfect,
this plan is perfect.
You have not co-created orcollaborated in this plan at all
, but I am going to shut downyour throat from on high.
I think that we know how thatends and it's not well.
Jay Johnson (05:48):
And I think we've seen that from a number of
organizations or organizationalcultures where it is sort of
like oh, now I'm going to ask aquestion here because I think in
some cases you do have apopulation of employees that
seem to be looking to theleadership for the vision, for
(06:10):
everything else like that, andsort of want that guidelines.
Can you talk about the conceptsof co-creation right, where the
leadership may feel obligatedto provide that vision, that
direction or whatever it is, andwhile the you know employee
base or the team or whomever mayfeel that it's the leadership's
(06:32):
responsibility, how do wecreate the conditions for
co-creation when each side isalready stepping into this sort
of role or this normativenarrative?
Aleya Harris (06:44):
Don't think of your role as a hierarchy role,
even though it is.
Think of your roles as skillsbase and what you all bring to
the table.
So, for example, the IvoryTower folks, probably you who
are listening to this podcastyou have a leadership role and
that means that you have whatmuch more in-depth view of
(07:06):
financials and a broader view ofthe business.
But you're not in theday-to-day and so for any wide
reaching plan to be successful,you need someone who has
in-depth knowledge of theday-to-day.
Well, guess what?
That's probably the team memberthat you're about to tell this
plan to.
So what you might do is fromsay, from where we are at our
(07:27):
financials are telling us thiswe're trying to move in this
direction.
Here's the overall vision, butwhat we need your thought in is
what would this look like on aday-to-day basis?
Can you help inform from whatyour skill set is?
Think about it this way Imagineyou all are Dumbledore and
you're talking to harry potter.
(07:48):
I don't know how well you knowharry potter, but at some point
in time they're walking aroundtrying to find these horcruxes
to kill.
He who must not be named.
And dumbledore needs help, andhe literally needs this stuff.
He needed help.
It wasn't like, you know, likeI have a toddler and'm like help
me in the kitchen, and it'sreally just to avoid her from
(08:08):
getting into whatever she'sgetting into in the living room,
like she's not actually helpingme.
He really needed support and sohe brought Harry with him to
help him out, to find a horcruxand do the things.
And then Dumbledore actuallyends up being wounded and Harry
was integral to that experience.
They were a partnership and ofcourse everyone knows that
(08:29):
Dumbledore was the most powerfulwizard in the world and Harry's
this like student, like that,was never in question.
But Dumbledore was wise enoughto check his ego and realize
that it's about a skill set andan experience and an exposure
conversation rather than ahierarchical one.
The same thing goes for thestorytelling.
Jay Johnson (08:51):
Yeah, and I like that approach because I mean it
is really kind of getting backinto that concepts of adult
learning and involving somebodyin that learning journey and
involving them into their ownstory, because while my story I
am the main character of my ownstory, everybody that's sitting
in that room is the maincharacter of their own story.
(09:13):
So them sitting there and sortof just getting told something
versus them actively engaging orbeing involved in the
co-creation of the knowledgeseems to be a really powerful
way for us to do that.
Now I want to dig back intosomething that you said a little
bit ago about the authenticityand the vulnerability, because I
think this is something that'soften scary for a trainer or for
(09:36):
a coach or even for an HRperson to say I've been there or
I've experienced that and Ifailed right, like sometimes a
trainer or whomever that's putat the front of the room or even
a leader.
The expectation is all this youknow we put all this pressure
on ourselves that we need toknow everything, we need to feel
everything.
We can't look like we're.
You know that we don't belongthere.
(09:58):
Imposter syndrome starts toplay into the equation and it
blocks us from really gettinginto that vulnerable space.
How might we be able tonavigate that more effectively?
Aleya.
Aleya Harris (10:09):
The first thing that I want you to ask yourself
is what is your role truly?
You've told yourself, and fedinto the popular belief, that
you are the sage on stage.
You're the one who needs tohave all of the answers.
You put together the PowerPointand the workshop materials and
so you must know everything.
(10:30):
And I posit to you that that'sactually not your role.
Your role is to deliver anoutcome.
An outcome is that they learnsomething, their behaviors
change, they've had a mentalparadigm shift.
That's what you're trying todeliver.
And in order to best deliverthat outcome, people need to
(10:51):
participate in their owntransformation.
They cannot do that if theyfeel like the transformation's
already done for them andthey're just sitting there, eyes
glazed over, wondering whenlunch is happening.
That's what happens when youhave a sage on stage saying I
know everything in here, justtake notes and do this.
They need to explore, they needto understand that this is a
(11:14):
road that has been traveledbefore, so that they can feel
like you know what you're doing.
And it is the pitfalls thatgive you the credibility.
If someone says to you we'regoing to implement a new
performance management systemI've implemented 10 performance
management systems before, neverhad a problem, you're like,
(11:36):
okay, that makes me feel great.
But in the back of your mindyou're also like but what if we
have a problem?
What if something goes wrong?
That relatable factor yeah,they've never done problems
before, They've only doneperfection before.
So if we have a problem,they're not going to know what
(11:58):
to do.
Jay Johnson (11:59):
Right Now.
How do we balance that, though?
Because we don't want to comein and be like I have done 10
performance management thingsand I screwed up every single
one of them.
They're going to go, you'reright.
So we know that's.
You know.
We know that that is obviouslynot how we want to show up or
how we want to perform.
We know that we don't want tobe the sage on stage.
(12:20):
How do we, how do we navigatethat balance, that delicate
balance of I share enough, butnot too much, or I'm sharing the
right kind of vulnerabilities,and not telling you all about a
particular aspect that maybe isnot related to this.
Um, and I'm going to dig backinto the results thing, cause,
that's obviously something Ireally, really put forward, but
(12:43):
let's navigate this.
How do we fine tune that spaceof vulnerability for it to be
the appropriate space?
Aleya Harris (12:50):
You share a story of vulnerability because you are
wanting to connect theirproblems to your passion and
experience.
You share a crisis story toarticulate a path forward.
It's either a common crisis,one that they're feeling, one
that they're experiencing, orone that you see in their new
(13:11):
future, or one that you'retrying to get them to avoid.
You see them heading for atrain wreck and you're trying to
reroute the tracks.
The purpose is not to justshare willy-nilly.
That's why I call myself astrategic storytelling
consultant, because it's allasking yourself what is the
(13:33):
reason for sharing this story?
What am I trying to get them tounderstand, believe or know
that they don't know now, sothat they again can participate
in their own transformation?
Where are they stuck, or whereare they about to get stuck, and
how can me telling a story helpthem understand that they're
(13:55):
not alone, that this stickingpoint is totally overcomable,
and I am the perfect person totell them how to overcome it.
And here are the three steps toovercome it.
This is what we're going to do,yeah.
Jay Johnson (14:07):
Well, and I like it because you brought it back to
the area that I was going totalk about the results, right,
the outcomes.
What outcomes are we actuallygoing for?
How are we measuring thoseoutcomes, what do they look like
, and really making sure thatthe vulnerability matches there,
that it's not just a story forstory's sake, but there's
actually a purpose behind thestory.
So something that we often pushhere is knowledge without
(14:31):
action is a failed training asfar as I'm concerned, because if
you're not actually changingthe behaviors towards a business
outcome, you're not gettingresults and you're a luxury and
not a necessity which all innecessity right, so let's talk
about that.
How do we relate storytelling tothe actual results focused
(14:53):
strategies that a business wants?
You know, a business comes inand says Aleya, I need you to
put together a communicationstraining because our team's not
great at customer service orwhatever else it is.
How do we approach that from astorytelling slash, design,
development, implementation.
Can you walk us through alittle bit of that process?
Aleya Harris (15:14):
Absolutely.
First, you need to know whatthe story is.
Story is a sense makingmaking,clarification and
emotion-driving device.
It's the way that our brainsalready work and it allows us to
understand concepts andinternalize them and match them
with our current emotions, whichcauses movement.
(15:35):
That's what motivation is.
So the reason why you're usingstory in the first place is
because you are trying to dowhat you said create some
movement, create some change,get people off their butts and
doing something in the firstplace.
And the way I like to do thatis through my story-driven
leadership framework.
(15:56):
It often happens where there arepeople are disconnected or they
have a lack of self-awarenessand they have challenges in
bringing people either togetheror bringing people on board to
an idea in the generalpopulation don't understand what
(16:21):
it means for their life, andthen they don't understand how
to follow the breadcrumbs fromwhere they are now to where
you're trying to get them to go.
So the first thing I like to dois to get real and to have a
moment of recognition of wherewe are, what the current
narratives are that we'retelling ourselves and we're
saying collectively,intentionally or unintentionally
(16:41):
, and what our biases are for oragainst action.
So this involves things likeexcavating current stories,
mapping biases to currentbeliefs and behaviors and
revealing how those personalexperiences are shaping the
world that we're in.
So we have those aha moments ofoh my goodness, no wonder why
(17:05):
we're stuck, no wonder why thisis not going to work, no wonder
why we are here, because we'redoing all of these things and
we're telling ourselves thesestories.
Jay Johnson (17:16):
Can I give an example of I think and help me
understand if I'm wrong, but Ithink during COVID, right, and
as CEO of my company, I've got ateam of 14 amazing, amazing,
awesome individuals.
A lot of times and this wassomething that I would say in my
leadership journey or myleadership cycle, I would often
(17:38):
be the problem solver, the chiefproblem solver, right Like so
it would be oh, let's do this,let's come up with this and
everything else.
During COVID I mean, it was sonovel and things that occurred
it was one of those where Ithink my team kind of expected
like, okay, what's the vision?
And this was my approach.
I, literally in our all teamsmeeting, I said, okay, I know
(18:00):
that in the past it's been oneof those hey, what's the
direction, what's the vision,jay?
And usually I've had some kindof idea.
But, team, I'm going to beperfectly honest with you, I
have absolutely no clue, rightright, I'm just as lost in this
space as you are.
So this today is not going to be.
Here's what we're going to doin our vision.
Here's today is going to be.
(18:20):
Helped me come up with someideas of how we're going to
navigate this forward together.
And so like, in that moment Iknew that the story was Jay's
going to have an answer, ormaybe Jay has an answer, or he's
got an idea or a direction.
But shifting that story,calling that story out, is that
kind of what you're speaking tohere, or is there a different
(18:42):
way that that could have beenapproached?
What are your thoughts on that,aliyah?
Aleya Harris (18:45):
I think that you did a great job approaching that
, and that's part of it, butthat's almost just like the
beginning of it, because then itwould go deeper in.
Well, what are you team membersthinking now?
What is a story you're tellingyourself about the current COVID
situation?
That it's impossible I alwaysuse fairytale analogies because
(19:06):
people can understand them thatthe dragon is unslayable, that
this is not a journey worthgoing on.
What do you think?
And then you hear the stories,probably write them down.
Do some group sharing?
Oh, okay, Now that we'reunderstanding where we are,
maybe we pull some themes out.
This is where we are.
Will this current thoughtprocess help us solve this
(19:30):
problem?
And if it won't, what part ofthis do we need to replace with
a better story?
And then how do we go aboutdoing that?
So if we're like COVID isunsolvable problem, let's just
close the doors now and saveourselves headache right, Like
let's say that that's what cameout.
Hopefully that wasn't, butlet's say that we're going home.
(19:52):
And then this is where you'relike when do I lead and when do
I not lead?
This is when you, jay, you comein and you say, well, so we're
not going to do that.
What my vision is that theultimate goal, the ultimate
reward here if the night goes onthis quest is for us to make
the same amount of profit thisyear as last year.
(20:15):
That is my challenge to you.
That's like at the beginning ofthe fairy tale when the good
fairy says here's your quest,young grasshopper, whatever.
So then you're like so now wehave a disconnect.
How do we match this?
Your story is this.
The story that we need to tellis that we can do this and this
(20:36):
is a solvable challenge.
So how do we make that story up?
This is a solvable challenge.
I feel confident about this.
We deserve to make results,regardless of what's happening
in the world.
We are fully resourced.
How do we break that down?
Using a story structure to seewhat we are missing in our
current mentality.
(20:57):
That needs to match our futurestory so we can get the results
that we're after.
Jay Johnson (21:02):
Okay.
Aleya Harris (21:02):
Does that?
Jay Johnson (21:03):
make sense?
Yeah, absolutely, so, all right, so now I've got a better
picture of this this sort ofentry, entry space.
You were continuing on with thestory.
So once the once the leaderidentifies the stories, looks at
that sort of identifies wherethe actual outcome or what the
end result ultimately is.
Where do we go from there,Alaya?
Aleya Harris (21:24):
Then it's time to get clear.
Then you're like okay, we'regoing to adapt, get our shifted
perspective and challenge thosecurrent narratives and explore
the what-if scenarios to uncovernew possibilities.
Then we're also going toclarify so we're going to
transform and shift thosenarratives into actionable,
value-driven narratives.
(21:46):
So you would go through likewell, it's a very different
thing to say we're going to makethe same profit as last year.
There's no, that's aclose-ended statement.
You're like all right, boss,well, I guess I'll get on that
(22:10):
Versus.
What if we made the same profitas last year?
What would that take?
What if we felt super empoweredright now?
What would that look like?
What if COVID lasts forever andsocial distancing never ends?
What would that look like?
And you invite curiosity as aclarification device.
What you're trying to do is tocircumvent the fear, the
(22:32):
stagnation, the limiting beliefsthat us as humans hold hold.
Often, when we come together,we treat humans as widgets or
robots, rather than actual humanbeings who have emotions and
thought processes that go intothese very professional sounding
big boy and girl documents thatwe create, when, in reality, to
(22:54):
get change actually to happen,you have to treat people as
humans.
And so when you have those whatif scenarios and there's
clarification scenarios you getthe team to begin to see and
question where they are andimagine for themselves a better
vision which, coincidentally,shock and awe will most likely
(23:17):
align with the one that youalready gave them.
But this is what I'm tellingyou.
It's about them participatingin the story as a collective
hero.
Think like robin hood and hismerry men, or like gladys knight
and the pips, or like beyonceand destiny's child.
Like it's everyone togetheryou're beyonce in this scenario.
(23:38):
By the way, jane needs child.
Like it's everyone togetherYou're Beyonce in this scenario.
By the way.
Jay, everyone, you're verywelcome.
Highest praise I can giveanybody.
I take that You're moving as acollective because they came
into this retreat scenariomeeting as 10-ish individuals.
Your job is to get them to cometogether as a team with a
(24:00):
shared perspective, moving inthe same direction, creating a
story that is transformingtowards success and away from
failure.
So then, the third step is youget connected.
So you've gotten real, you'vegotten clear, and then you get
connected, and this is when youget to evolve.
You've gotten clear on what thenarrative needs to be, where
(24:21):
you're going.
Start implementing storysessions in your all-hands
meeting you have, maybe in yoursales meetings you have okay,
let's do a sales pipeline reviewand then also let's tell the
(24:46):
story of how we would have donethis before and how now we're
doing it differently becausewe're participating in a new
narrative and you provide storystructure snippets to everyday
things that they're alreadydoing.
This is lifted and lovinglycollaborated with the atomic
(25:08):
habit habit methodology.
If you've ever read atomichabits, right, right.
Jay Johnson (25:14):
For those of you paying attention at home, read
Atomic Habits.
James Clear is the author.
It's an incredible book.
Yep, incredible book.
Aleya Harris (25:22):
And one of the things that he mentions in that
book is the best way to create anew habit is to attach it to
something that you already aredoing.
You're already having all handsmeeting.
Why not add 10 minutes forstorytelling?
Why not structure the meetingdifferently?
(25:43):
That relates now to your newnarrative, where you talk about
in the beginning, and it's everymeeting.
These are the new problemswe're trying to solve.
This is the narrative we'retrying to tell.
How have you helped today?
Right, have someone else comeon and talk about what they've
done that supported this newnarrative?
That's how we create change.
(26:05):
That's how we build intentionalculture, because culture is
built whether you areintentional about it or not.
So let's build it intentionallyand you then are building also
better leaders, because, inorder to have someone telling a
story, guess what has to happenon the other side?
Someone listening to the storyand that's one of the things
(26:27):
that leaders don't do enough of,in my opinion is listening,
because like you said, we'relistening to the stories that
are surrounding them, becausethey feel like what you said I
have to have all the answers, soI can't listen.
I got to talk, just likeeverybody's grandmama said.
Jay Johnson (26:40):
You got two ears in the organization and you know
if I'm in the leadershipposition and I'm trying to
create this co-created,co-created vision of what if and
(27:01):
really kind of looking towardsthis direction.
Let's say that and I alwayspick on poor security trainings
right, like the one thateverybody has to go to no one
has a choice, no one wants to bethere.
They're clicking through orthey're, you know a lot of times
.
They're online now, so you justhit the button as fast as you
possibly can and then you okay,let's, let's talk about that,
(27:23):
because every organization hassome level of security training,
whatever that is.
That could be safety, thatcould be something that it's the
vegetables Sometimes you got toeat them.
Aleya Harris (27:34):
You got to do it that it's the vegetables.
Jay Johnson (27:36):
sometimes you got to eat them, you got to do it.
Nobody's really looking for it.
It's not the dessert course.
How can we utilize, maybe, thisframework, this story framework
, to make some of those types ofthings where it's almost the
mundane or the um, you know, thenecessary but not exciting type
ventures?
How might we be able toincorporate this concept into
(27:57):
that?
Aleya Harris (27:59):
Jay, I will tell you.
Story makes everything sexy, sochallenge accepted.
Thank you very much.
The first thing you have to askyourself before you even get
into story structure is whyshould anybody care about this
thing?
Right and not?
Why should they care?
Because they're good Cause I'ma company man, like you know,
not in that sense.
But why should they?
(28:20):
Why should Sarah care?
Why should Jack care?
Why should they care asindividuals?
Jay Johnson (28:25):
Yeah.
Aleya Harris (28:26):
Start from that place and then build the story
from there.
So let's say that you're justlike a normal I don't know ad
agency, like you, don't.
You're not like doinggovernment secret stuff, where
it's like ultimate tip topsecurity, but like normal
security, like you got a badgein and out, yep Right, and
you're trying to figure out,okay, why should Sarah care
(28:48):
about using her badge properlyand checking in guests properly
and all of that stuff?
Well, sarah should care becauseall of her stuff could get
stolen from her desk.
Sarah should care because then,if we are in a lockdown, she
might not be able to get to herfamily on time.
Sarah should care because ifthey steal her computer, all of
(29:11):
the work that's on it, that herproject that she's been working
on for three months, is now gone.
That's why Sarah should care,and we often don't think about
why Sarah and individual careshould care.
We say things like as a goodsteward of company resources,
you too should use.
Jay Johnson (29:28):
You know what I?
Aleya Harris (29:29):
mean Like and everyone's like don't put the
company at risk.
Jay Johnson (29:34):
Yeah, exactly yeah.
Aleya Harris (29:37):
Don't put Sarah at risk, and I know that we don't
often like to think of peoplelike this, but everyone's a
narcissist with short attentionspans.
That's how I talk to everyonewhen I'm developing something,
because although everyone,especially you, know you have
great intentions and maybe theydo love your company, would do
anything for your company.
They believe your companycolors the end of the day,
(29:58):
everyone is still makingdecisions based on themselves.
If they have to decide betweenyour company or taking care of
their aging parent that needsfull-time care, guess who's
gonna win?
It is not your company, it'snot and it and it shouldn't be.
And if it is, I have someserious questions right.
Jay Johnson (30:20):
Right, we have.
We have different stories totell at that point.
Aleya Harris (30:23):
Yeah, yeah, something's going on there, that
little funky donkey.
So that's the first place thatyou just need to be in the
headspace of before you evenstart telling the story.
Then you go through theframework, you think about okay,
what is the moment where I needher to recognize the current
narrative?
Let's talk about Sarah, becausewhen I develop things, I like
(30:43):
to have one person in my mind.
It's probably an archetypeperson, but one person in my
mind, sarah, the advertisingaccount director, who is super
busy but a lot of high valuework that she's doing.
Jay Johnson (30:57):
Going back to those marketing days with the buyer
persona, aren't we Aleya?
Aleya Harris (31:01):
We are.
We are, and that is actuallybecause I mean I'm sorry I
probably should have saidspoiler alert to all these
listeners I am not an HRprofessional.
Did anybody get that?
I haven't been a marketer,however, for 15 years.
That's why I'm so good at this,because I don't think like an
HR professional.
I haven't been indoctrinatedwith you people.
(31:22):
I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.
I can actually be the one thatlooks at the Kool-Aid and be
like wasn't that supposed to bered?
It's kind of orange.
Did anybody notice that?
That's me.
And so I use multidisciplinaryways, from psychology to human
(31:43):
design, to marketing andstorytelling.
I apply it to HR.
So, yes, good eye Buyerpersonas Can't help it.
Can't help myself.
So you of sarah and you're likewhat is sarah currently telling
herself?
And I need sarah to do step oneget real with what that is and
(32:03):
have a recognition aha moment ofwhat exactly are her biases and
what is she saying now.
So that's the first part of thetraining to get sarah to
realize where.
So that's the first part of thetraining to get Sarah to
realize where she is at.
The first part of the trainingis not here is your badge.
Red badges mean this.
Green badges mean that Alwayslook out for the person behind
(32:27):
you Like come on man.
Jay Johnson (32:29):
It's about.
Aleya Harris (32:30):
Where are you at now and why is that helping or
hurting you as Sarah and also usas the company?
Then you get clear.
You want her to have thatshifted perspective.
You have what if?
Scenarios in the training.
What if you allowed someone totailgate behind you using their
badge?
That's not supposed to be there.
(32:50):
They come in and they stealyour computer there.
They come in and they stealyour computer.
They come in and they havemaybe come in on your badge and
they do something funky and itshows that you did it and you
have no way of proving that itwasn't you.
Yep, what?
What happened then, sarah?
And so now, all of a sudden,sarah sorry, my trainings get a
(33:12):
little flassy sometimes so thenthen you're getting Sarah to go.
Oh, oh, wait a minute, hold ona second.
This is actually important tome and the company and I should
be paying attention.
You're building in, buying, andthen you get them to clarify
and then you build it into thedaily ritual so it doesn't just
end when she gets thecertificate at the end of the
(33:36):
virtual training.
Right, you have maybe pop-upsafety checks or maybe you have
a.
I don't know if this isactually.
You can do this.
See, this is when my non-HRself comes in.
Maybe one day someone takesSarah's computer, like in HR
right, and you're like, noeverybody, someone took sarah's
(33:56):
computer.
Wow, could this have happened?
and you have like a, almost likea fire drill, basically safety
fire drill yep so you haveexperiences that embed it into
normal ways of working, orsometimes slightly abnormal, to
get it to be a lived experiencerather than just something
that's clicked through.
Jay Johnson (34:18):
Alayah, this is incredible and I love the
concepts here.
If our audience was going toget a hold of you, how would
they reach out to you?
Aleya Harris (34:26):
You would go to evolutioncollectivecom
evolutioncollectivecom and youwould click schedule a call and
we could talk all about it,because this is what I'm
passionate about is usingstorytelling to help people be
better, come together and bemore productive, so I'd love to
talk to you about that, ifthat's your cup of tea and this
(34:48):
is the reason that I love thisso much is because I think a lot
of times when we're in thatdesign phase, when we're in that
delivery phase, we often forgetabout the storytelling aspect.
Jay Johnson (34:57):
You know, it's like I've only got an hour, I've got
to deliver as much content oras much knowledge as I can and
I've got to really tell them whythey've got to do this.
And, in a bow at the sort ofthe end of the hour is, if we
really want to get somebody tochange their behavior, we've got
(35:19):
to get them to be a part of thestory, and the tactics I think
that you shared here today willreally help us do that.
Aleya Harris (35:26):
Yes, I know they will, cause they have.
I am fully confident and I wasso excited about it because what
if, what if people actuallyliked your trainings?
Jay Johnson (35:39):
What if that next security training was something
that shifted and saved your butt?
Aleya Harris (35:46):
What if?
What if?
Jay Johnson (35:48):
Well, I love it.
Thank you, Aleya.
I really appreciate you beinghere and for sharing your wisdom
and your approach to this.
I think it was really, reallyhelpful and definitely something
for our audience to take away.
So thank you again.
Aleya Harris (36:02):
Thank you for having me, Jay.
Jay Johnson (36:04):
And thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we are shaping the future
of training and development.
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