April 25, 2025 • 36 mins
What if the leadership development initiatives you're pouring resources into aren't delivering measurable results? In this eye-opening conversation with Aaron Helton, leadership consultant and author, we uncover the science behind truly effective coaching and development programs—and it's all in the numbers.
The statistics are startling: people with accountability partners achieve their goals 86% of the time versus just 16% for those going it alone. That's a 70% difference that directly impacts your organization's bottom line. Aaron breaks down how replacing senior executives can cost up to 400% of their annual salary, transforming a modest investment in coaching into a massive ROI.
Drawing from his background in industrial organizational psychology and his personal experience as a professional on the autism spectrum, Aaron offers fresh perspectives on working with neurodivergent individuals. His approach centers on meeting people exactly where they are—a philosophy that transcends labels and leads to more inclusive, effective leadership.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Aaron Helton.
Welcome to the show, Aaron.
Hey, Jay, Happy to be here.
So, Aaron, you've got afantastic background and
something that I'm reallyexcited to dive into today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and how you got
(00:22):
into this talent developmentspace?
Aaron Helton (00:25):
Absolutely so.
I have a master's degree inindustrial organizational
psychology.
So some of you may be familiarwith that if you're from these
backgrounds.
For those who are not familiar,industrial organizational
psychology at an extremelysimplified version Some people
consider HR adjacent, butthere's some overlap.
But there are two separateentities Industrial
(00:45):
organizational psychology,industrial is the surveys and
statistical side, andorganizational is the people
side.
So I work in both theassessment and kind of
logistical adjustments ofcompanies or a little bit of
that assessment space.
But I mostly work in theorganizational space.
My official title is aleadership consultant and so I
(01:07):
work in executive coaching,leadership development in the
form of training and consultingas a whole with executives and
up to, I believe, middlemanagement and higher, more or
less.
So the organizational sidebeing that culture side.
So what I do is I transformcultures using those tools and
it is a bit of a case-by-casebasis which some of you may be
(01:29):
familiar with.
As for how I got into the role,honestly I'll be honest, it was
a little bit of luck and alittle bit of fate, I'll say so.
I got my degree with theintention originally to be a
statistician, so I was going towork specifically in statistical
spaces.
My dream when I was younger wasactually to be a people
(01:53):
metrician.
So I was going to work inpeople metrics, which is the
idea of turning things thatshouldn't be or couldn't at the
time, things that were abstractand couldn't be measured really,
and turning them into numbers,so like employee motivation how
do you measure that?
And I was going to make a bunchof surveys and things like that
and I still do that.
On the side, our companyactually has an engagement
survey I just developed myself.
(02:14):
But as I was shotgunning forjobs afterwards as you do after
college, saying I just need myfirst job, somebody give me a
chance I came across my currentboss, steve Anderson, from
Integrated Leadership Systems,and we just hit it off and he
said I'm looking for exactlywhat you've got.
And I said well, this is kindof more of the touchy-feely
(02:36):
coaching style.
And we just had a longconversation and he said take a
chance on me, I'll take a chanceon you.
So I did.
I moved five hours north and nowI'm here in Columbus Ohio and
that first month I had $200 tomy name after getting settled in
and it was pretty scary.
But three years later I'm doingwell and I've really fallen in
love with systemizing the ideaof the coaching process and the
(03:01):
development, and I'm actuallyI've just finished my manuscript
for a book I'll be looking topublish later this year.
Thank you very much.
It's on the framework of how tocreate breakthroughs, and so
I'm really excited to apply myspecific mindset in that
original statistical space andapply it to the people side
(03:24):
without sacrificing the heart ofhuman development.
So it's very exciting.
Jay Johnson (03:30):
That is some exciting stuff, Aaron, and, as
the audience probably hasalready figured out, I am
excited to have you here becauseone of the big things that
we're focusing on is measurement.
How are we measuring whetherour training programs are
actually leading to behavioralchange?
How do we know our coachingprograms are producing the
(03:50):
return on investment that peopleare putting into them?
So this is such a powerfulconversation and my background's
in behavioral psychology butnot from the organizational side
and not from the clinical sideI kind of danced in between
those two.
So let's dig into that questionfirst.
When you're looking at, say,measuring right In my background
(04:13):
, I speak for a living.
So the probability statistics,all those things were a little
scary to me when I walked intothem in the industrial and
systems engineering department,but I recognized how important
it is to measure differentaspects.
What are some of the thingsthat you think about as you
start to navigate some of thesemeasurement aspects?
(04:33):
Whether that's employeemotivation, whether that is
behavioral change or shifts orfunctions, what do you look at
and how can we maybe, astrainers, think about that and
look at that in our own programs?
Aaron Helton (04:47):
Absolutely so.
First and foremost, when Ithink of measurements, you know
we think of the organization asa whole, but the process really
comes down to the individual,one-on-one coaching.
So we have conversations likeyou and I are having where you
know, our process is based incognitive behavioral psychology.
So for those unfamiliar withthe ABCD model, a is an
(05:07):
activating event.
B is your belief system.
Around that event.
We use the example of a snake.
So if the A an activating eventis a snake, you might fight or
flight with your B your beliefsystem.
Your belief system says, hey, asnake is dangerous, it can kill
me.
I have to run away or fight it.
So your C consequent emotionwill be something that's
fear-based, which leads to thatfight or flight.
(05:28):
Your D is your dependentbehavior.
So how do you act in accordance?
So what we do with coaching iswe dig into that belief system,
that B, and say well, what ifyou were a gardener or if you
had knowledge of snakes and itwas a garden snake?
You're out in your garden andyou just saw a harmless snake
and you had knowledge of snakesand it was a garden snake.
You're out in your garden andyou just saw a harmless snake
and you had knowledge of it andso when you reframe your belief
(05:48):
system around it, a lot ofexecutives are finding this a
very helpful process and I willsay, as far as cognitive
behavioral psychology goes, Iknow it's 50-50, especially with
neurodiverse individuals.
So I just want to give a littlecaveat of we apply that in more
cognitively interested spaceslike business, but we do have
(06:09):
the flexibility of seeing thewhole person.
I'm not going to throw acognitive behavioral framework
on somebody that very obviouslyresonates more with somatic work
, for instance, but anyway,circled out all the way back
around with those one-on-oneconversations, there was a study
.
I'm not recalling it off thetop of my head, I just remember
the numbers, but it was withsome college students.
(06:31):
It might've been a Gallup, I'mnot sure.
It was about 10 years back, butthey looked at accountability
and goal achievement within ayear For the students that had
said, hey, I want to reach thisgoal and nothing else.
They just stated their intent.
A year later, 16% of them hadreached that goal.
However, those that had anaccountability partner, somebody
(06:53):
that continuously checked inwith them which we do with
coaching once a month theyachieved their goals 86% of the
time.
So that's already a 70%increase with hey, if you have
an employee that you're wantingto work with, just having a
coach one-on-one for one yearmakes them 70% more likely to
reach their goals.
That in and of itself for aculture, go ahead.
Jay Johnson (07:15):
That's actually also supported by the ICF, the
International CoachingFoundation which ends up
demonstrating like training byitself will get somebody maybe
23% of the way, but trainingcoupled with individual
accountability-based coachingcan get us up to that 85, 86%
mark.
(07:35):
So that's very, very consistent, aaron.
Aaron Helton (07:37):
Absolutely.
And then when you pull thatinformation, that's just from
the coaching side.
Then you look at the trainingas a whole.
So how we've measured it in thepast is just and honestly
anecdotal in some cases, becauseof the nature of human
development.
Sometimes you just feel it whenyou can communicate faster, you
know, you think of the speed oftrust by Stephen Covey and you
(07:59):
look at, you know, warrenBuffett making a handshake deal.
I believe the example they hadin the book was with the, I
think, the CEO of Walmart at thetime, something like that.
But they gave a handshake dealof like $4 billion because they
knew each other.
So well.
Jay Johnson (08:11):
They trusted each other.
Aaron Helton (08:12):
They trusted each other exactly.
And so you can see it in thespeed of work, you can see it in
your capacity as you gainstress management techniques and
the ability to regulateyourself better.
And then, additionally, you'llsee it just in general growth.
You see, year to year.
We've had hospitals, we'veworked with that.
You know, because of the natureof hospitals, a lot of times
(08:34):
they're sitting in the redbecause that's the nature of how
it's funded.
But some of them are makingprofit from our training and the
way that we've worked with themand the culture that we've
created in them.
And then, finally, a lot ofpeople don't think about the
scarcity in the sense of notwhat you're gaining in return on
investment, but what you're notlosing, and what I mean by that
is Talent.
(08:55):
T-l-n-t actually came out with astudy a few years back and it
showed rough estimates of whenyou have to replace an
entry-level employee.
It costs roughly 30% of theirsalary, and then mid-level, I
believe, was 150%, and then thesenior level it was 400%.
So if you pay me, let's justpull some basic numbers out.
(09:17):
Let's say it's $100.
Well, with businesses, let'smake it 1,000, right, you pay
$1,000 over 12 months.
That's $12,000 to protect,essentially to invest in an
executive, for instance, whomakes $100,000.
Well, that $12,000 investmentin the year just saved you
potentially $400,000, because wediscovered their motivations,
(09:40):
giving them protection fromburnout, things like that, in
addition to the training, thecoaching and all those aspects,
and so that's a level ofmeasurement as well.
Jay Johnson (09:50):
And that's so important because actually the
Society for Human ResourceManagement also kind of
quantifies.
You can frame it anywhere fromone to 3.5 times the salary to
actually replace, and that'severything from the acquisition
of talent to the onboarding oftalent, to the loss of knowledge
(10:14):
management, to anything else.
So I always, I always laughwhen I love that you're throwing
these statistics, these numbersout, because this is exactly
what I really try to pushtrainers and coaches to better
understand of.
Hey, if they're not willing topay for your training program,
there's two things that arehappening and you have to take
(10:34):
ownership Either, a, you havenot communicated the potential
impact of your training and howit is going to lead to those
types of numbers, or, b, you'venot been able to quantifiably
educate them in a way that theyunderstand what risks they are
currently at, especially withthe economic markets.
(10:55):
Even just the general workforceculture and belief systems that
people are walking into theworkspace are that that
investment of $1,000 a month forcoaching is minimal compared to
the potential risk of thatperson leaving that person
staying and not being engaged,creating behaviors that
(11:19):
ultimately collapse your culture, etc.
So I love that you brought thatup collapse your culture, et
cetera.
So I love that you brought thatup, aaron, I'm going to ask a
question that is kind of relatedto okay, so we've got these
individuals that are coaching.
How much do you allow thoseindividuals to essentially set
their own goals or set their ownmetrics, versus how much do you
(11:42):
kind of provide them someinsight or guidance on what type
of metrics they should belooking at?
Right, because I can thinkabout it and I as an individual,
I like to think that I'm fairlyintrospective.
I evaluate or reflect.
I get 360 reviews from my teamso that way I know where I'm at.
But there are some managersleaders that may not.
(12:02):
They may feel I feel like myteam trusts me, and then you
talk to the team and you findout no, sir or ma'am, you are
not trusted by your team.
In fact, they think you'reterrible.
So how do you navigate some ofthat space where maybe one of
the people that you're coachingis not as introspective as they
should be?
How do you guide them insetting those goals or their
(12:24):
parameters of the KPIs?
Aaron Helton (12:27):
So it depends a little bit case by case.
First off, is there's aresponsibility of the coach to
be the safe space for thisindividual to be challenged in.
The coaching space is ideally apsychologically safe space.
To then challenge your coacheeand say, hey, that's not
(12:48):
consistent with other thingsI've been hearing.
Second, we have the 360assessment.
We use the leadership circleprofile in ours, and so we see
reactive behaviors such ascontrolling, complying or
protecting, which is the fight,flight or flee, essentially.
And so when we look at thoseaspects, we can say, hey, here's
20 people.
This is the general informationthat they gave you relative to
(13:12):
your self-perception.
And then, lastly, depending onwhat level and at what space
we're in in the organization, ifI started a coaching agreement
with somebody that's on a PIP,for example, they may have given
me goals that led that persontowards the PIP and what they
need to work on.
Alternatively, I will check inwith their supervisor about
(13:34):
every three months, about everyquarter, and say here's how this
person is doing.
Or, during our training, we'llgive updates to the management
team or whoever's in charge ofthe training, and then the
executive team as well, to sayhere's how things are going
individually.
Are you seeing the changes thatwe're being told are happening
in coaching, and so really it'sa lot of communication at all
(13:56):
levels to make sure that thosegoals are being met.
And then, finally, every intakesession, even if I've been
given goals, I will make surethat the coachee sets their own
goals.
I may be able to a couplesessions in talk about hey,
here's some things that aregoing on that your boss has
asked me to work on.
(14:18):
And generally I don't get into athree to six month fast-paced
coaching situation.
In those instances I would say,hey, here are the things we have
to be working on.
But generally, since the earlystages of coaching are also
about building trust, I'm notgoing to come out the gate
personally there are definitelycoaches that do but I won't come
(14:40):
out of the gate saying here arethe things we have to work on.
It's who are you and who do youwant to become.
And when I coach, my personalphilosophy is and I tell
everyone, my clients, at the endof every session we have I have
one goal I want you to feelheard, I want you to feel
empowered, that's it.
So I will ask at the end of oursessions do you feel heard in
all the things you told me anddo you feel empowered to make
change?
Because one of the strengths ofcoaching is compared to therapy
(15:02):
, because a lot of people makethat comparison is that therapy
can focus a lot more on the pastand coaching can focus a lot
more on the future.
And again, case by case,there's variation, but in
general that's a bit of a binaryseparation from them.
Jay Johnson (15:17):
And I like that distinction because, to be
perfectly honest with you, Ireally don't do much one-on-one
coaching anymore.
I do groups, I do teams, I do alot of training et cetera,
facilitation.
But I got out of the one-to-onecoaching space in big part
because there seemed to be asort of connection um, that
(15:37):
people would utilize coaching inorder to replace therapy and
it's just like, okay, this isn't, we're digging into some stuff
that's probably better suitedfor a clinical therapist than it
would be for me and I woulddraw that boundary.
But I really love thedistinction that you created.
There is whether it's focusingon the past or focusing on
future efforts, solutions,growth, mindset, et cetera.
(16:00):
That's definitely a reallypowerful frame that you offered
there, aaron.
So I want to thank you for thatreally powerful frame that you
offered there, aaron.
So I want to thank you for that.
You know it's interesting to mein terms of the goals and the
goal setting, because, as atrainer, as a coach or even as
an HR person that's trying tomanage different sets of
behaviors, being able to reallydig in on that aspect of what
(16:22):
are we measuring here, what arewe looking at and what does
success look like for thatpractitioner.
It's going to be very, verydifferent across people, across
organizations.
I want to ask one other questionin this, and then I'm going to
kind of shift our gears just alittle bit here, aaron.
But one of the things that Ihave found whether it's from
coaching or whether it's fromengagements is having a sort of
(16:45):
cool down period.
So what I like to do, and whatI liked to do when I was doing
individual coaching, is I wouldhave essentially a time block,
whether that was four months,whether that was three months,
and then I would have a littlebit of a cool down time, and it
didn't have to be commensurate,it wasn't like 90 on 90 off or
anything.
It usually could be somethinglike 90 on 30 days off, 90 on 30
(17:07):
days off.
Do you find that there's anysort of sweet spot for the
cadence of coaching, giving acool off period, or do you go,
you know, essentially 365, allthe way through, meeting once a
week?
What does that look like foryou and what is some of the
things that maybe you've takenaway from that sort of intensity
of the programs?
Aaron Helton (17:29):
That's a great question, jay, honestly.
So our process is the standardcoaching is twice a month, every
two weeks, and then naturally,life happens, you know, if we
need to reschedule.
Actually, earlier today Irescheduled a client.
I wasn't able to see them twoweeks out, so we scheduled three
weeks out, simple enough.
And for those that are in thetraining program, because we
(17:49):
have once a month workshops,then we have once a month
coaching as well, and so when wehave those different cadences,
either of those really work Forthe twice a month, those
individuals tend to be moreenthused, from what I've seen,
because we meet more often,they're getting more insight,
they're asking more questionsand our relationship is building
a little faster.
(18:10):
For those that meet monthly,however, the advantage is there
is advantage to not being asquickly close to a person.
Not every coaching relationshiphas to be extremely close and
trusting.
Ideally they will be and therewill always, hopefully for any
sort of good relationship, be alevel of trust.
Do not disregard or warp mywords.
(18:33):
In that way, however, when yousee them once a month, it's a
lot easier to say, hey, how havethings been?
Okay, that's great, let's getto work, essentially.
And then for those that you seetwice a month, the conversation
can be a lot more relaxed, theinsights could be less formal
and for some individuals thatworks a lot better.
(18:53):
So it really does depend caseby case.
And also I check in with myclients often and I say what am
I doing that I could be doingmore of, or what am I not doing
that you'd like to see me do?
Should I challenge you more?
You know I share a lot ofpersonal stories because that
helps to frame things inperspective.
But also it helps to createthat relationship building.
(19:14):
It feels a lot moreconversational, a lot more
natural and it feels lesspreachy when it's a parable.
You know, when it's a story,some clients don't resonate with
that.
They say can you make me abullet point list of what I need
to just start doing?
I said okay, but we're going tomake it together.
You know I'll want to say mystory.
But if they say I would like tohear less stories, okay.
So if there's a coach that'sfinding trouble in that cadence,
(19:34):
if you are a listener that'shaving trouble finding that
cadence or you want somethinglike that, first and foremost go
at your own pace and set itfrom there and then adjust for
the clients.
There will be natural days ofhey, it's summer's coming up, I
can't do this month or I'll beon vacation.
Can we push it back anotherweek and a half?
And then when they come backfrom vacation that's when
(19:55):
they're stressed out becausethey just came back from
vacation you say perfect, thisis exactly when you need a coach
, right, right.
But ultimately it comes down tomy favorite phrase, and the
wonderful catchphrase of anymental health or corporate
practitioner, I believe, is itdepends, it's our catchphrase,
really individual that we'reworking with.
Jay Johnson (20:23):
It's got to be comfortable, it's got to be
something that makes you knowlogistical sense, and so I think
that's a.
I think that's great guidance.
Thank you, aaron.
So let me switch gears herereal quick.
You had brought something upearlier in our conversation and
I want to create a little spacefor you to maybe share your
experience and your thoughts onworking with neurodiverse
(20:44):
populations, and I'm just goingto leave that a little bit open
and share with us any of yourinsights and your experiences
that you feel comfortable with.
How might we be able to thinkabout this in a more effective
and inclusive way as we deliverour coaching or training and our
HR programs?
What might we be able to do tobe more inclusive to a
(21:06):
neurodivergent population?
Aaron Helton (21:09):
Absolutely Well.
First and foremost, using anyof my own examples is, I would
say, a little unfair, right,because I am one individual who
is autistic.
I am autistic, but I'm alsowhat is previously known as high
functioning, but I call it highmasking, because using the
(21:32):
language of high or lowfunctioning can be disparaging
for certain groups, and I don'tthink they've came up with quite
new language yet, so I believeit's level one.
Jay Johnson (21:39):
I like high masking , yeah, yeah.
Aaron Helton (21:42):
So I spend a lot of social energy to show up as I
am now, but of course, we allhave our gremlin mode or our
goblin outfit we put on at home,put on our pajamas, grab our
jar of peanut butter and justwatch our shows, right, or, to
some degree, something like that.
You have a little, you know.
I have colored lights andthings that I turn off the large
(22:03):
light in the room and, just,you know, have a nice calmer,
dimmer environment.
So we all have the tools thatwe need when it comes to
accommodating individuals.
That's what it comes down to.
That's it Accommodate theindividual.
We spend a lot of energy on howcan we create more of a blank
(22:26):
or blank or blank aroundaccommodation.
It's how can we empower thisspecific group.
And, at the end of the day, oneof the most powerful tools we
have is when we're with anotherhuman being.
Just be with another humanbeing.
As I mentioned, my whole goalwhen I'm with a client is I want
you to feel heard and I wantyou to feel empowered.
And I'll ask somebody whetherthey're neurodivergent or not.
Do you feel heard?
And I'll ask somebody whetherthey're neurodivergent or not.
(22:51):
Do you feel heard?
And there'll be someindividuals with.
You know, I had a client andthey were so trying to think of
how to say it in kind of aconsiderate way to make sure
everything's, you know,anonymous, et cetera.
But I had this client and theywere dealing with imposter
syndrome and so they could talkabout oh, you know, it's tough
to deal with this, this, this.
I'm also younger, I'm also this.
(23:14):
And I sat there and I justlooked at them and I said you're
also a black female doctor, youunderstand that right?
And she just starts crying onthe spot.
She says I feel so seen, likeyeah, because that's your whole
person.
You are a whole person.
It's not just I'm young, orit's not just I just started my
job, or it's not just becauseI'm a minority, it's your
multiple, different things thatall culminate into your identity
.
And at the end of that session,did you feel heard?
(23:34):
Absolutely.
Do you feel empowered to makesome change together?
Absolutely.
And so with a neurodivergentindividual, I'll hear them.
I've talked with clients orpeople that come up after
speeches and all sorts of people, and they'll come up and say
well, here's my neurodivergentexperience.
I say that's interesting, it'sdifferent from mine.
Tell me about how you grew upwith blank blank, blank, because
(23:56):
this was my experience andwe'll just connect as people.
There's no framework or systemthat can simplify the complexity
of being a human being.
So, at the end of the day, thevery first thing that you should
do when you sit down withanother human being, and the
very core of what you do, shouldbe sit with that human being.
(24:17):
So, if they prefer, hey, I'mjust going to be cameras off and
I just need to do a phone call,or I'll have my camera off, but
it means a lot to see youreacting.
It's like, okay, a little weird, a little awkward, but that's
okay, because it's what willmake you feel safer here.
And then one day I might say,hey, would you be able to turn
your camera on, but maybe keepthe lights off?
Does that feel good?
It's like, yeah, because I wantto be able to see you too.
(24:38):
Is that something we could workon together?
Absolutely.
Or they might say I'm justreally not comfortable with it.
Okay, there's no, like that'snot a positive or negative
interaction, that's justdeepening our relationship.
Because if they say no, I getto respect their boundaries and
if they say yes, we get to moveinto that discomfort together
(24:58):
and grow.
If that's one of their goals isI want to be more present
online when I have team meetingsthen that's something that I
would push them to do, but ifit's not, then it's not.
So it would really just comedown to that case by case what
are you working on, who are youand who do you want to be, and
how can I help you get there?
Jay Johnson (25:17):
by seeing the entire person that you are.
Well.
Thank you for sharing that,aaron, and for sharing your
perspective on that.
I think it's really importantto understand that and I really
liked the frame that you said,and I don't want to, I don't
want to paraphrase it this, youknow four seconds after, but it
was basically there is no systemthat will manage the complexity
of human beings, and that's sotrue in so many levels is.
(25:48):
You mentioned identity andthere's some really incredible
studies of you know one of thestudies, I believe what it did
was it took women and wereactually testing their efficacy
in mathematics, and you know,there's a stereotype, or there's
this downplay of women inmathematics or women in
technical sciences, et cetera,and one of the things that this
study actually did was tochallenge the identity concept,
(26:09):
and how they did that was theytook three different groups of
women, putting them into astandardized test against three
different groups of men to see,you know, did men actually
outperform them?
And in the group where therewas no intervention, the men did
end up outperforming them.
However, with the twointerventions, the gap closed
(26:29):
and actually it was pretty muchequal and those interventions
were as simple as they asked thewomen before they took the
assessment or before they tookthe standardized test.
You know, okay, well, youidentify as a female.
What else do you identify as?
And they said well, I identifyas a big sister.
I identify as a college student.
And they really worked on thisconcept of identity and drew out
(26:52):
all of these other identitiesthat these people were holding.
And those groups that wentthrough those interventions that
were really kind of likebroadening their concepts of
identity ended up performing atthe exact same levels, if not
outperforming, the men that weretaking that same standardized
test.
(27:13):
And I thought that was such aninteresting study because it
really does have an impact.
So I'm going to frame this intoa little bit of a conversation
around the neurodivergenceconcept, the identification of
feeling neurodivergent or havinga neurodivergent, you know,
frame, does that limit, doesthat become a, you know, the
(27:38):
sole marker?
How have you navigated thosequestions of identity in that
space?
And I think this could bereally powerful for both the
trainers and coaches and HRpeople out there, but even other
people that are listening thatmay frame their identity as a
single source, like I am atrainer, okay, but what else are
you right?
So, even taking this to thatlarger context.
(28:00):
I guess the question is is howdo you manage that question of
identity in this space?
Aaron Helton (28:06):
Ready for the catchphrase it depends.
But that's an excellentquestion, because when you think
of identity, we really do tendto identify ourselves as one
thing, especially those like ourjob.
You've seen in the rates ofsuicide in men when they lose
their job.
You know the rates of suicidein like men when they lose their
(28:28):
job.
You know when they lose theiridentity as well.
I'm not masculine because Idon't have a job, or I'm not the
protector, or even in this likemale loneliness epidemic that's
being talked about, which youknow, that's a whole separate
thing I'll talk about.
But you know, it's kind ofself-created in the sense of
that need for connection, forintimacy to be seen right and
(28:52):
when it comes to looking at allthese different aspects of your
identity, it empowers you.
That's it.
When you feel seen, you areempowered.
And I used that word a momentago intimacy, and I forgot where
I heard it.
It was either a podcast orthere's a quote somewhere.
I'm sure it's been said acouple of different ways, but I
heard this said as intimacy isinto me, you see, or into you, I
see, you know.
(29:12):
Intimacy into me, you see, andI loved that and it stuck with
me in the sense of how can I seeyou more?
You know people confuseintimacy and this is a slight
tangent but people confuseintimacy with physical or sexual
gratification.
It's like no intimacy.
Is you and I right now having aconversation about things we
connect with?
That is intimate in a way, andso when you are able to prop
(29:35):
yourself up with differentidentities and give yourself
space in all those aspects likeI talk a lot when I do speeches,
I love the Renaissance fairwhen I stand up.
I love it Awesome we might haveto talk after this, and when I
(30:11):
stand up I love it Awesome.
We might have to talk afterthis, but I say you know I'm not
going to put on a suit of armoror my.
There was a misconception I hadfor a long time which was to be
my whole self.
To be authentic means I have tobe my whole self all the time,
and that was my misconception.
I believe that authenticity ishaving space in your whole life
for all of your parts.
You don't have to be thegoofball in a serious meeting to
(30:33):
still know that you are a goofy, funny person outside of it.
And so having space for allthose different zones Like, if I
want to be a Renaissance Fairtheater kid, I go do that in
those spaces.
I don't need to bring that intothe meetings, however.
I might have a funky shirt onthat I like and that's an aspect
of it, and so that's where Ifind my balance and my
authenticity.
(30:54):
So when taking that all the wayback to that question of
identity and I'll actuallyreference that male loneliness
epidemic in the sense of menneed to create more community
with each other, you knowbecause you see the studies from
back in the day of you knowagain, using just the
traditional model because thatwas what was studied but a
husband and a wife.
(31:14):
Statistically, if the husbandpasses away first, the wife is
not going to pass away veryquickly after, because generally
the social constructs of womenand femme presenting individuals
is community.
They have community, they havehobbies, they have identities
outside of husband, whereas theindividuals that were you know,
(31:35):
the husbands if they had losttheir spouse, they lose that
idea of like.
Well, who's like taking care ofme?
You know they're my, for lackof a better term and you'll very
clearly see my thoughts onthings.
But you know your emotionalsupport animal, essentially, in
some past marriages and againsome extremes I know there's a
lot more healthy individuals now, but that's how it was propped
(31:57):
up was a woman, was basically aman's emotional support animal.
So when a wife passed away, theman shortly followed.
And so when you look at thatidea of identity, cultivating
more than just one thing is notonly necessary for evolution in
the sense of like fulfillment,it's also necessary just to
(32:18):
survive.
If you put all your eggs in onebasket emotionally, then you're
putting all your eggs in onebasket emotionally.
So when it comes to youridentity, make sure that you
give yourself the grace to beeverything that you are and, as
a coach, make sure that you areseeing the whole person.
Just something I do talk aboutin my book towards the end as
well.
Jay Johnson (32:38):
It's such a powerful insight and very
accurate along the science.
We are social animals and thatsocial connection that we have
is often based on differentframes of our identity.
You know I have a social groupof former debaters when I was on
the debate team and hockeyplayers and this and that and
the other thing, and you know,leaning into those different
(33:00):
social networks it is.
It's a construction ofdifferent aspects of our
internal states, our internalbeings and how we perceive
ourselves.
And I think it was Kierkegaardthat said if you label me, you
negate me.
And I really do kind of I lovethat frame because we are more
than just one thing.
We are complex, complex,sentient, conscious beings and
(33:25):
there is more than just the oneaspect that we might be looking
at or might be feeling aboutourselves.
So exploring that and digginginto that is a really powerful
exercise.
Aaron Helton (33:36):
Absolutely.
And if I may apply that also toemotions, that's something I
talk about all the time ispeople sit there and say, well,
I am angry.
It's like, well, no, you'refeeling anger right now, you
know.
Separating that whole identitybecause that happens often too
is people paint themselves as asingular thing, moment to moment
as well.
Or well, I'm just the boss, Ihave to be the hammer here.
(33:57):
It's like, no, you don't.
Your perception, your beliefsystem, going back to that, is
that, as a manager, you have tobe the tough guy.
No, you don't.
And so those are the type ofthings that we can challenge.
So, ultimately, coaching isjust leading and guiding
individuals towards seeing moreof themselves and the context
around them.
It's just more.
Jay Johnson (34:17):
Helping them to challenge those belief systems.
Exactly Beautiful, Aaron.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
If the audience wanted to getin touch with you to learn more,
how might they be able to do so?
Aaron Helton (34:28):
Absolutely.
You can find me on LinkedIn,aaron Helton.
You can also find the websitefor Integrated Leadership System
.
I believe in the description,both of those links should be
there.
The Integrated LeadershipSystem's website is
integratedleadercom.
And then you can find me onLinkedIn, aaron Helton.
And then, additionally,depending on when this comes out
(34:49):
and the timeline for publishing, you should be able to find my
book the Path to PermissionChanneling Energy into
Life-Changing Breakthroughs byAaron Helton.
Jay Johnson (34:59):
I like that title you got to let us know when
that's out.
We'll put out a message for you, because that'll be one that
I'm reading, aaron.
So thank you for joining ustoday on the show.
Aaron Helton (35:07):
Thanks, for having me.
I appreciate it and this was anamazing discussion.
Thank you, Jay.
Jay Johnson (35:11):
Yep and thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we are shaping the future
of training and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I am joined by specialguest Aaron Helton.
Welcome to the show, Aaron.
Hey, Jay, Happy to be here.
So, Aaron, you've got afantastic background and
something that I'm reallyexcited to dive into today.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and how you got
(00:22):
into this talent developmentspace?
Aaron Helton (00:25):
Absolutely so.
I have a master's degree inindustrial organizational
psychology.
So some of you may be familiarwith that if you're from these
backgrounds.
For those who are not familiar,industrial organizational
psychology at an extremelysimplified version Some people
consider HR adjacent, butthere's some overlap.
But there are two separateentities Industrial
(00:45):
organizational psychology,industrial is the surveys and
statistical side, andorganizational is the people
side.
So I work in both theassessment and kind of
logistical adjustments ofcompanies or a little bit of
that assessment space.
But I mostly work in theorganizational space.
My official title is aleadership consultant and so I
(01:07):
work in executive coaching,leadership development in the
form of training and consultingas a whole with executives and
up to, I believe, middlemanagement and higher, more or
less.
So the organizational sidebeing that culture side.
So what I do is I transformcultures using those tools and
it is a bit of a case-by-casebasis which some of you may be
(01:29):
familiar with.
As for how I got into the role,honestly I'll be honest, it was
a little bit of luck and alittle bit of fate, I'll say so.
I got my degree with theintention originally to be a
statistician, so I was going towork specifically in statistical
spaces.
My dream when I was younger wasactually to be a people
(01:53):
metrician.
So I was going to work inpeople metrics, which is the
idea of turning things thatshouldn't be or couldn't at the
time, things that were abstractand couldn't be measured really,
and turning them into numbers,so like employee motivation how
do you measure that?
And I was going to make a bunchof surveys and things like that
and I still do that.
On the side, our companyactually has an engagement
survey I just developed myself.
(02:14):
But as I was shotgunning forjobs afterwards as you do after
college, saying I just need myfirst job, somebody give me a
chance I came across my currentboss, steve Anderson, from
Integrated Leadership Systems,and we just hit it off and he
said I'm looking for exactlywhat you've got.
And I said well, this is kindof more of the touchy-feely
(02:36):
coaching style.
And we just had a longconversation and he said take a
chance on me, I'll take a chanceon you.
So I did.
I moved five hours north and nowI'm here in Columbus Ohio and
that first month I had $200 tomy name after getting settled in
and it was pretty scary.
But three years later I'm doingwell and I've really fallen in
love with systemizing the ideaof the coaching process and the
(03:01):
development, and I'm actuallyI've just finished my manuscript
for a book I'll be looking topublish later this year.
Thank you very much.
It's on the framework of how tocreate breakthroughs, and so
I'm really excited to apply myspecific mindset in that
original statistical space andapply it to the people side
(03:24):
without sacrificing the heart ofhuman development.
So it's very exciting.
Jay Johnson (03:30):
That is some exciting stuff, Aaron, and, as
the audience probably hasalready figured out, I am
excited to have you here becauseone of the big things that
we're focusing on is measurement.
How are we measuring whetherour training programs are
actually leading to behavioralchange?
How do we know our coachingprograms are producing the
(03:50):
return on investment that peopleare putting into them?
So this is such a powerfulconversation and my background's
in behavioral psychology butnot from the organizational side
and not from the clinical sideI kind of danced in between
those two.
So let's dig into that questionfirst.
When you're looking at, say,measuring right In my background
(04:13):
, I speak for a living.
So the probability statistics,all those things were a little
scary to me when I walked intothem in the industrial and
systems engineering department,but I recognized how important
it is to measure differentaspects.
What are some of the thingsthat you think about as you
start to navigate some of thesemeasurement aspects?
(04:33):
Whether that's employeemotivation, whether that is
behavioral change or shifts orfunctions, what do you look at
and how can we maybe, astrainers, think about that and
look at that in our own programs?
Aaron Helton (04:47):
Absolutely so.
First and foremost, when Ithink of measurements, you know
we think of the organization asa whole, but the process really
comes down to the individual,one-on-one coaching.
So we have conversations likeyou and I are having where you
know, our process is based incognitive behavioral psychology.
So for those unfamiliar withthe ABCD model, a is an
(05:07):
activating event.
B is your belief system.
Around that event.
We use the example of a snake.
So if the A an activating eventis a snake, you might fight or
flight with your B your beliefsystem.
Your belief system says, hey, asnake is dangerous, it can kill
me.
I have to run away or fight it.
So your C consequent emotionwill be something that's
fear-based, which leads to thatfight or flight.
(05:28):
Your D is your dependentbehavior.
So how do you act in accordance?
So what we do with coaching iswe dig into that belief system,
that B, and say well, what ifyou were a gardener or if you
had knowledge of snakes and itwas a garden snake?
You're out in your garden andyou just saw a harmless snake
and you had knowledge of snakesand it was a garden snake.
You're out in your garden andyou just saw a harmless snake
and you had knowledge of it andso when you reframe your belief
(05:48):
system around it, a lot ofexecutives are finding this a
very helpful process and I willsay, as far as cognitive
behavioral psychology goes, Iknow it's 50-50, especially with
neurodiverse individuals.
So I just want to give a littlecaveat of we apply that in more
cognitively interested spaceslike business, but we do have
(06:09):
the flexibility of seeing thewhole person.
I'm not going to throw acognitive behavioral framework
on somebody that very obviouslyresonates more with somatic work
, for instance, but anyway,circled out all the way back
around with those one-on-oneconversations, there was a study
.
I'm not recalling it off thetop of my head, I just remember
the numbers, but it was withsome college students.
(06:31):
It might've been a Gallup, I'mnot sure.
It was about 10 years back, butthey looked at accountability
and goal achievement within ayear For the students that had
said, hey, I want to reach thisgoal and nothing else.
They just stated their intent.
A year later, 16% of them hadreached that goal.
However, those that had anaccountability partner, somebody
(06:53):
that continuously checked inwith them which we do with
coaching once a month theyachieved their goals 86% of the
time.
So that's already a 70%increase with hey, if you have
an employee that you're wantingto work with, just having a
coach one-on-one for one yearmakes them 70% more likely to
reach their goals.
That in and of itself for aculture, go ahead.
Jay Johnson (07:15):
That's actually also supported by the ICF, the
International CoachingFoundation which ends up
demonstrating like training byitself will get somebody maybe
23% of the way, but trainingcoupled with individual
accountability-based coachingcan get us up to that 85, 86%
mark.
(07:35):
So that's very, very consistent, aaron.
Aaron Helton (07:37):
Absolutely.
And then when you pull thatinformation, that's just from
the coaching side.
Then you look at the trainingas a whole.
So how we've measured it in thepast is just and honestly
anecdotal in some cases, becauseof the nature of human
development.
Sometimes you just feel it whenyou can communicate faster, you
know, you think of the speed oftrust by Stephen Covey and you
(07:59):
look at, you know, warrenBuffett making a handshake deal.
I believe the example they hadin the book was with the, I
think, the CEO of Walmart at thetime, something like that.
But they gave a handshake dealof like $4 billion because they
knew each other.
So well.
Jay Johnson (08:11):
They trusted each other.
Aaron Helton (08:12):
They trusted each other exactly.
And so you can see it in thespeed of work, you can see it in
your capacity as you gainstress management techniques and
the ability to regulateyourself better.
And then, additionally, you'llsee it just in general growth.
You see, year to year.
We've had hospitals, we'veworked with that.
You know, because of the natureof hospitals, a lot of times
(08:34):
they're sitting in the redbecause that's the nature of how
it's funded.
But some of them are makingprofit from our training and the
way that we've worked with themand the culture that we've
created in them.
And then, finally, a lot ofpeople don't think about the
scarcity in the sense of notwhat you're gaining in return on
investment, but what you're notlosing, and what I mean by that
is Talent.
(08:55):
T-l-n-t actually came out with astudy a few years back and it
showed rough estimates of whenyou have to replace an
entry-level employee.
It costs roughly 30% of theirsalary, and then mid-level, I
believe, was 150%, and then thesenior level it was 400%.
So if you pay me, let's justpull some basic numbers out.
(09:17):
Let's say it's $100.
Well, with businesses, let'smake it 1,000, right, you pay
$1,000 over 12 months.
That's $12,000 to protect,essentially to invest in an
executive, for instance, whomakes $100,000.
Well, that $12,000 investmentin the year just saved you
potentially $400,000, because wediscovered their motivations,
(09:40):
giving them protection fromburnout, things like that, in
addition to the training, thecoaching and all those aspects,
and so that's a level ofmeasurement as well.
Jay Johnson (09:50):
And that's so important because actually the
Society for Human ResourceManagement also kind of
quantifies.
You can frame it anywhere fromone to 3.5 times the salary to
actually replace, and that'severything from the acquisition
of talent to the onboarding oftalent, to the loss of knowledge
(10:14):
management, to anything else.
So I always, I always laughwhen I love that you're throwing
these statistics, these numbersout, because this is exactly
what I really try to pushtrainers and coaches to better
understand of.
Hey, if they're not willing topay for your training program,
there's two things that arehappening and you have to take
(10:34):
ownership Either, a, you havenot communicated the potential
impact of your training and howit is going to lead to those
types of numbers, or, b, you'venot been able to quantifiably
educate them in a way that theyunderstand what risks they are
currently at, especially withthe economic markets.
(10:55):
Even just the general workforceculture and belief systems that
people are walking into theworkspace are that that
investment of $1,000 a month forcoaching is minimal compared to
the potential risk of thatperson leaving that person
staying and not being engaged,creating behaviors that
(11:19):
ultimately collapse your culture, etc.
So I love that you brought thatup collapse your culture, et
cetera.
So I love that you brought thatup, aaron, I'm going to ask a
question that is kind of relatedto okay, so we've got these
individuals that are coaching.
How much do you allow thoseindividuals to essentially set
their own goals or set their ownmetrics, versus how much do you
(11:42):
kind of provide them someinsight or guidance on what type
of metrics they should belooking at?
Right, because I can thinkabout it and I as an individual,
I like to think that I'm fairlyintrospective.
I evaluate or reflect.
I get 360 reviews from my teamso that way I know where I'm at.
But there are some managersleaders that may not.
(12:02):
They may feel I feel like myteam trusts me, and then you
talk to the team and you findout no, sir or ma'am, you are
not trusted by your team.
In fact, they think you'reterrible.
So how do you navigate some ofthat space where maybe one of
the people that you're coachingis not as introspective as they
should be?
How do you guide them insetting those goals or their
(12:24):
parameters of the KPIs?
Aaron Helton (12:27):
So it depends a little bit case by case.
First off, is there's aresponsibility of the coach to
be the safe space for thisindividual to be challenged in.
The coaching space is ideally apsychologically safe space.
To then challenge your coacheeand say, hey, that's not
(12:48):
consistent with other thingsI've been hearing.
Second, we have the 360assessment.
We use the leadership circleprofile in ours, and so we see
reactive behaviors such ascontrolling, complying or
protecting, which is the fight,flight or flee, essentially.
And so when we look at thoseaspects, we can say, hey, here's
20 people.
This is the general informationthat they gave you relative to
(13:12):
your self-perception.
And then, lastly, depending onwhat level and at what space
we're in in the organization, ifI started a coaching agreement
with somebody that's on a PIP,for example, they may have given
me goals that led that persontowards the PIP and what they
need to work on.
Alternatively, I will check inwith their supervisor about
(13:34):
every three months, about everyquarter, and say here's how this
person is doing.
Or, during our training, we'llgive updates to the management
team or whoever's in charge ofthe training, and then the
executive team as well, to sayhere's how things are going
individually.
Are you seeing the changes thatwe're being told are happening
in coaching, and so really it'sa lot of communication at all
(13:56):
levels to make sure that thosegoals are being met.
And then, finally, every intakesession, even if I've been
given goals, I will make surethat the coachee sets their own
goals.
I may be able to a couplesessions in talk about hey,
here's some things that aregoing on that your boss has
asked me to work on.
(14:18):
And generally I don't get into athree to six month fast-paced
coaching situation.
In those instances I would say,hey, here are the things we have
to be working on.
But generally, since the earlystages of coaching are also
about building trust, I'm notgoing to come out the gate
personally there are definitelycoaches that do but I won't come
(14:40):
out of the gate saying here arethe things we have to work on.
It's who are you and who do youwant to become.
And when I coach, my personalphilosophy is and I tell
everyone, my clients, at the endof every session we have I have
one goal I want you to feelheard, I want you to feel
empowered, that's it.
So I will ask at the end of oursessions do you feel heard in
all the things you told me anddo you feel empowered to make
change?
Because one of the strengths ofcoaching is compared to therapy
(15:02):
, because a lot of people makethat comparison is that therapy
can focus a lot more on the pastand coaching can focus a lot
more on the future.
And again, case by case,there's variation, but in
general that's a bit of a binaryseparation from them.
Jay Johnson (15:17):
And I like that distinction because, to be
perfectly honest with you, Ireally don't do much one-on-one
coaching anymore.
I do groups, I do teams, I do alot of training et cetera,
facilitation.
But I got out of the one-to-onecoaching space in big part
because there seemed to be asort of connection um, that
(15:37):
people would utilize coaching inorder to replace therapy and
it's just like, okay, this isn't, we're digging into some stuff
that's probably better suitedfor a clinical therapist than it
would be for me and I woulddraw that boundary.
But I really love thedistinction that you created.
There is whether it's focusingon the past or focusing on
future efforts, solutions,growth, mindset, et cetera.
(16:00):
That's definitely a reallypowerful frame that you offered
there, aaron.
So I want to thank you for thatreally powerful frame that you
offered there, aaron.
So I want to thank you for that.
You know it's interesting to mein terms of the goals and the
goal setting, because, as atrainer, as a coach or even as
an HR person that's trying tomanage different sets of
behaviors, being able to reallydig in on that aspect of what
(16:22):
are we measuring here, what arewe looking at and what does
success look like for thatpractitioner.
It's going to be very, verydifferent across people, across
organizations.
I want to ask one other questionin this, and then I'm going to
kind of shift our gears just alittle bit here, aaron.
But one of the things that Ihave found whether it's from
coaching or whether it's fromengagements is having a sort of
(16:45):
cool down period.
So what I like to do, and whatI liked to do when I was doing
individual coaching, is I wouldhave essentially a time block,
whether that was four months,whether that was three months,
and then I would have a littlebit of a cool down time, and it
didn't have to be commensurate,it wasn't like 90 on 90 off or
anything.
It usually could be somethinglike 90 on 30 days off, 90 on 30
(17:07):
days off.
Do you find that there's anysort of sweet spot for the
cadence of coaching, giving acool off period, or do you go,
you know, essentially 365, allthe way through, meeting once a
week?
What does that look like foryou and what is some of the
things that maybe you've takenaway from that sort of intensity
of the programs?
Aaron Helton (17:29):
That's a great question, jay, honestly.
So our process is the standardcoaching is twice a month, every
two weeks, and then naturally,life happens, you know, if we
need to reschedule.
Actually, earlier today Irescheduled a client.
I wasn't able to see them twoweeks out, so we scheduled three
weeks out, simple enough.
And for those that are in thetraining program, because we
(17:49):
have once a month workshops,then we have once a month
coaching as well, and so when wehave those different cadences,
either of those really work Forthe twice a month, those
individuals tend to be moreenthused, from what I've seen,
because we meet more often,they're getting more insight,
they're asking more questionsand our relationship is building
a little faster.
(18:10):
For those that meet monthly,however, the advantage is there
is advantage to not being asquickly close to a person.
Not every coaching relationshiphas to be extremely close and
trusting.
Ideally they will be and therewill always, hopefully for any
sort of good relationship, be alevel of trust.
Do not disregard or warp mywords.
(18:33):
In that way, however, when yousee them once a month, it's a
lot easier to say, hey, how havethings been?
Okay, that's great, let's getto work, essentially.
And then for those that you seetwice a month, the conversation
can be a lot more relaxed, theinsights could be less formal
and for some individuals thatworks a lot better.
(18:53):
So it really does depend caseby case.
And also I check in with myclients often and I say what am
I doing that I could be doingmore of, or what am I not doing
that you'd like to see me do?
Should I challenge you more?
You know I share a lot ofpersonal stories because that
helps to frame things inperspective.
But also it helps to createthat relationship building.
(19:14):
It feels a lot moreconversational, a lot more
natural and it feels lesspreachy when it's a parable.
You know, when it's a story,some clients don't resonate with
that.
They say can you make me abullet point list of what I need
to just start doing?
I said okay, but we're going tomake it together.
You know I'll want to say mystory.
But if they say I would like tohear less stories, okay.
So if there's a coach that'sfinding trouble in that cadence,
(19:34):
if you are a listener that'shaving trouble finding that
cadence or you want somethinglike that, first and foremost go
at your own pace and set itfrom there and then adjust for
the clients.
There will be natural days ofhey, it's summer's coming up, I
can't do this month or I'll beon vacation.
Can we push it back anotherweek and a half?
And then when they come backfrom vacation that's when
(19:55):
they're stressed out becausethey just came back from
vacation you say perfect, thisis exactly when you need a coach
, right, right.
But ultimately it comes down tomy favorite phrase, and the
wonderful catchphrase of anymental health or corporate
practitioner, I believe, is itdepends, it's our catchphrase,
really individual that we'reworking with.
Jay Johnson (20:23):
It's got to be comfortable, it's got to be
something that makes you knowlogistical sense, and so I think
that's a.
I think that's great guidance.
Thank you, aaron.
So let me switch gears herereal quick.
You had brought something upearlier in our conversation and
I want to create a little spacefor you to maybe share your
experience and your thoughts onworking with neurodiverse
(20:44):
populations, and I'm just goingto leave that a little bit open
and share with us any of yourinsights and your experiences
that you feel comfortable with.
How might we be able to thinkabout this in a more effective
and inclusive way as we deliverour coaching or training and our
HR programs?
What might we be able to do tobe more inclusive to a
(21:06):
neurodivergent population?
Aaron Helton (21:09):
Absolutely Well.
First and foremost, using anyof my own examples is, I would
say, a little unfair, right,because I am one individual who
is autistic.
I am autistic, but I'm alsowhat is previously known as high
functioning, but I call it highmasking, because using the
(21:32):
language of high or lowfunctioning can be disparaging
for certain groups, and I don'tthink they've came up with quite
new language yet, so I believeit's level one.
Jay Johnson (21:39):
I like high masking , yeah, yeah.
Aaron Helton (21:42):
So I spend a lot of social energy to show up as I
am now, but of course, we allhave our gremlin mode or our
goblin outfit we put on at home,put on our pajamas, grab our
jar of peanut butter and justwatch our shows, right, or, to
some degree, something like that.
You have a little, you know.
I have colored lights andthings that I turn off the large
(22:03):
light in the room and, just,you know, have a nice calmer,
dimmer environment.
So we all have the tools thatwe need when it comes to
accommodating individuals.
That's what it comes down to.
That's it Accommodate theindividual.
We spend a lot of energy on howcan we create more of a blank
(22:26):
or blank or blank aroundaccommodation.
It's how can we empower thisspecific group.
And, at the end of the day, oneof the most powerful tools we
have is when we're with anotherhuman being.
Just be with another humanbeing.
As I mentioned, my whole goalwhen I'm with a client is I want
you to feel heard and I wantyou to feel empowered.
And I'll ask somebody whetherthey're neurodivergent or not.
Do you feel heard?
And I'll ask somebody whetherthey're neurodivergent or not.
(22:51):
Do you feel heard?
And there'll be someindividuals with.
You know, I had a client andthey were so trying to think of
how to say it in kind of aconsiderate way to make sure
everything's, you know,anonymous, et cetera.
But I had this client and theywere dealing with imposter
syndrome and so they could talkabout oh, you know, it's tough
to deal with this, this, this.
I'm also younger, I'm also this.
(23:14):
And I sat there and I justlooked at them and I said you're
also a black female doctor, youunderstand that right?
And she just starts crying onthe spot.
She says I feel so seen, likeyeah, because that's your whole
person.
You are a whole person.
It's not just I'm young, orit's not just I just started my
job, or it's not just becauseI'm a minority, it's your
multiple, different things thatall culminate into your identity
.
And at the end of that session,did you feel heard?
(23:34):
Absolutely.
Do you feel empowered to makesome change together?
Absolutely.
And so with a neurodivergentindividual, I'll hear them.
I've talked with clients orpeople that come up after
speeches and all sorts of people, and they'll come up and say
well, here's my neurodivergentexperience.
I say that's interesting, it'sdifferent from mine.
Tell me about how you grew upwith blank blank, blank, because
(23:56):
this was my experience andwe'll just connect as people.
There's no framework or systemthat can simplify the complexity
of being a human being.
So, at the end of the day, thevery first thing that you should
do when you sit down withanother human being, and the
very core of what you do, shouldbe sit with that human being.
(24:17):
So, if they prefer, hey, I'mjust going to be cameras off and
I just need to do a phone call,or I'll have my camera off, but
it means a lot to see youreacting.
It's like, okay, a little weird, a little awkward, but that's
okay, because it's what willmake you feel safer here.
And then one day I might say,hey, would you be able to turn
your camera on, but maybe keepthe lights off?
Does that feel good?
It's like, yeah, because I wantto be able to see you too.
(24:38):
Is that something we could workon together?
Absolutely.
Or they might say I'm justreally not comfortable with it.
Okay, there's no, like that'snot a positive or negative
interaction, that's justdeepening our relationship.
Because if they say no, I getto respect their boundaries and
if they say yes, we get to moveinto that discomfort together
(24:58):
and grow.
If that's one of their goals isI want to be more present
online when I have team meetingsthen that's something that I
would push them to do, but ifit's not, then it's not.
So it would really just comedown to that case by case what
are you working on, who are youand who do you want to be, and
how can I help you get there?
Jay Johnson (25:17):
by seeing the entire person that you are.
Well.
Thank you for sharing that,aaron, and for sharing your
perspective on that.
I think it's really importantto understand that and I really
liked the frame that you said,and I don't want to, I don't
want to paraphrase it this, youknow four seconds after, but it
was basically there is no systemthat will manage the complexity
of human beings, and that's sotrue in so many levels is.
(25:48):
You mentioned identity andthere's some really incredible
studies of you know one of thestudies, I believe what it did
was it took women and wereactually testing their efficacy
in mathematics, and you know,there's a stereotype, or there's
this downplay of women inmathematics or women in
technical sciences, et cetera,and one of the things that this
study actually did was tochallenge the identity concept,
(26:09):
and how they did that was theytook three different groups of
women, putting them into astandardized test against three
different groups of men to see,you know, did men actually
outperform them?
And in the group where therewas no intervention, the men did
end up outperforming them.
However, with the twointerventions, the gap closed
(26:29):
and actually it was pretty muchequal and those interventions
were as simple as they asked thewomen before they took the
assessment or before they tookthe standardized test.
You know, okay, well, youidentify as a female.
What else do you identify as?
And they said well, I identifyas a big sister.
I identify as a college student.
And they really worked on thisconcept of identity and drew out
(26:52):
all of these other identitiesthat these people were holding.
And those groups that wentthrough those interventions that
were really kind of likebroadening their concepts of
identity ended up performing atthe exact same levels, if not
outperforming, the men that weretaking that same standardized
test.
(27:13):
And I thought that was such aninteresting study because it
really does have an impact.
So I'm going to frame this intoa little bit of a conversation
around the neurodivergenceconcept, the identification of
feeling neurodivergent or havinga neurodivergent, you know,
frame, does that limit, doesthat become a, you know, the
(27:38):
sole marker?
How have you navigated thosequestions of identity in that
space?
And I think this could bereally powerful for both the
trainers and coaches and HRpeople out there, but even other
people that are listening thatmay frame their identity as a
single source, like I am atrainer, okay, but what else are
you right?
So, even taking this to thatlarger context.
(28:00):
I guess the question is is howdo you manage that question of
identity in this space?
Aaron Helton (28:06):
Ready for the catchphrase it depends.
But that's an excellentquestion, because when you think
of identity, we really do tendto identify ourselves as one
thing, especially those like ourjob.
You've seen in the rates ofsuicide in men when they lose
their job.
You know the rates of suicidein like men when they lose their
(28:28):
job.
You know when they lose theiridentity as well.
I'm not masculine because Idon't have a job, or I'm not the
protector, or even in this likemale loneliness epidemic that's
being talked about, which youknow, that's a whole separate
thing I'll talk about.
But you know, it's kind ofself-created in the sense of
that need for connection, forintimacy to be seen right and
(28:52):
when it comes to looking at allthese different aspects of your
identity, it empowers you.
That's it.
When you feel seen, you areempowered.
And I used that word a momentago intimacy, and I forgot where
I heard it.
It was either a podcast orthere's a quote somewhere.
I'm sure it's been said acouple of different ways, but I
heard this said as intimacy isinto me, you see, or into you, I
see, you know.
(29:12):
Intimacy into me, you see, andI loved that and it stuck with
me in the sense of how can I seeyou more?
You know people confuseintimacy and this is a slight
tangent but people confuseintimacy with physical or sexual
gratification.
It's like no intimacy.
Is you and I right now having aconversation about things we
connect with?
That is intimate in a way, andso when you are able to prop
(29:35):
yourself up with differentidentities and give yourself
space in all those aspects likeI talk a lot when I do speeches,
I love the Renaissance fairwhen I stand up.
I love it Awesome we might haveto talk after this, and when I
(30:11):
stand up I love it Awesome.
We might have to talk afterthis, but I say you know I'm not
going to put on a suit of armoror my.
There was a misconception I hadfor a long time which was to be
my whole self.
To be authentic means I have tobe my whole self all the time,
and that was my misconception.
I believe that authenticity ishaving space in your whole life
for all of your parts.
You don't have to be thegoofball in a serious meeting to
(30:33):
still know that you are a goofy, funny person outside of it.
And so having space for allthose different zones Like, if I
want to be a Renaissance Fairtheater kid, I go do that in
those spaces.
I don't need to bring that intothe meetings, however.
I might have a funky shirt onthat I like and that's an aspect
of it, and so that's where Ifind my balance and my
authenticity.
(30:54):
So when taking that all the wayback to that question of
identity and I'll actuallyreference that male loneliness
epidemic in the sense of menneed to create more community
with each other, you knowbecause you see the studies from
back in the day of you knowagain, using just the
traditional model because thatwas what was studied but a
husband and a wife.
(31:14):
Statistically, if the husbandpasses away first, the wife is
not going to pass away veryquickly after, because generally
the social constructs of womenand femme presenting individuals
is community.
They have community, they havehobbies, they have identities
outside of husband, whereas theindividuals that were you know,
(31:35):
the husbands if they had losttheir spouse, they lose that
idea of like.
Well, who's like taking care ofme?
You know they're my, for lackof a better term and you'll very
clearly see my thoughts onthings.
But you know your emotionalsupport animal, essentially, in
some past marriages and againsome extremes I know there's a
lot more healthy individuals now, but that's how it was propped
(31:57):
up was a woman, was basically aman's emotional support animal.
So when a wife passed away, theman shortly followed.
And so when you look at thatidea of identity, cultivating
more than just one thing is notonly necessary for evolution in
the sense of like fulfillment,it's also necessary just to
(32:18):
survive.
If you put all your eggs in onebasket emotionally, then you're
putting all your eggs in onebasket emotionally.
So when it comes to youridentity, make sure that you
give yourself the grace to beeverything that you are and, as
a coach, make sure that you areseeing the whole person.
Just something I do talk aboutin my book towards the end as
well.
Jay Johnson (32:38):
It's such a powerful insight and very
accurate along the science.
We are social animals and thatsocial connection that we have
is often based on differentframes of our identity.
You know I have a social groupof former debaters when I was on
the debate team and hockeyplayers and this and that and
the other thing, and you know,leaning into those different
(33:00):
social networks it is.
It's a construction ofdifferent aspects of our
internal states, our internalbeings and how we perceive
ourselves.
And I think it was Kierkegaardthat said if you label me, you
negate me.
And I really do kind of I lovethat frame because we are more
than just one thing.
We are complex, complex,sentient, conscious beings and
(33:25):
there is more than just the oneaspect that we might be looking
at or might be feeling aboutourselves.
So exploring that and digginginto that is a really powerful
exercise.
Aaron Helton (33:36):
Absolutely.
And if I may apply that also toemotions, that's something I
talk about all the time ispeople sit there and say, well,
I am angry.
It's like, well, no, you'refeeling anger right now, you
know.
Separating that whole identitybecause that happens often too
is people paint themselves as asingular thing, moment to moment
as well.
Or well, I'm just the boss, Ihave to be the hammer here.
(33:57):
It's like, no, you don't.
Your perception, your beliefsystem, going back to that, is
that, as a manager, you have tobe the tough guy.
No, you don't.
And so those are the type ofthings that we can challenge.
So, ultimately, coaching isjust leading and guiding
individuals towards seeing moreof themselves and the context
around them.
It's just more.
Jay Johnson (34:17):
Helping them to challenge those belief systems.
Exactly Beautiful, Aaron.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
If the audience wanted to getin touch with you to learn more,
how might they be able to do so?
Aaron Helton (34:28):
Absolutely.
You can find me on LinkedIn,aaron Helton.
You can also find the websitefor Integrated Leadership System
.
I believe in the description,both of those links should be
there.
The Integrated LeadershipSystem's website is
integratedleadercom.
And then you can find me onLinkedIn, aaron Helton.
And then, additionally,depending on when this comes out
(34:49):
and the timeline for publishing, you should be able to find my
book the Path to PermissionChanneling Energy into
Life-Changing Breakthroughs byAaron Helton.
Jay Johnson (34:59):
I like that title you got to let us know when
that's out.
We'll put out a message for you, because that'll be one that
I'm reading, aaron.
So thank you for joining ustoday on the show.
Aaron Helton (35:07):
Thanks, for having me.
I appreciate it and this was anamazing discussion.
Thank you, Jay.
Jay Johnson (35:11):
Yep and thank you, audience, for tuning into this
episode of the Talent Forge,where we are shaping the future
of training and development.
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