April 11, 2025 • 52 mins
Dr. Jennifer Nash takes us on a profound journey into what it truly means to lead with humanity in today's complex workplace. Drawing from her background in piano, dance, foreign languages, and eventually the automotive industry, she shares how these seemingly divergent paths converged to form her unique leadership philosophy.
Nash reveals the powerful concept behind her book "Be Human, Lead Human," explaining that authentic leadership begins with recognizing that people—not products or services—create organizational value. She articulates how organizations function best when viewed as spaces where people both work and evolve as human beings, rather than merely delivering output.
For talent development professionals, Nash offers fresh perspectives on how to incorporate personal passions into professional practice.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I have a special guest,Dr.
Jennifer Nash, who is aleadership consultant and an
award-winning and best-sellingauthor of the book Be Human,
lead Human.
Welcome to the show, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (00:18):
Thank you so much for having me, Jay.
I'm delighted to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:21):
All right.
So we heard a little bit aboutyou.
You're an author, you're aconsultant and I love the title
Be Human, lead Human.
So we're going to dig into thata little bit.
But let's let the audience getto know you a little bit better.
How did you make your way intothis space and into talent
development and into consultingand coaching?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (00:39):
You know, Jay , I really feel like I've been
doing this work my entire life.
I just didn't know, like, whatit was called or what the path
was to get there.
And so I think, like all of us,you know, we start out doing
the things that we love and,over time, like everything just
sort of comes together into thatpuzzle where it creates a space
where we're playing in thespace where we play to our
(01:00):
strengths and we're in flow.
And so for me, like I startedout my career in the automotive
industry, and one of the thingsthat helped me be very
successful there was my abilityto listen and observe, and so I
came from a background that youknow was more on the like art
side of the house.
So I have a background in pianoand dance and foreign languages
(01:22):
.
So going into the business worldfor me it was like going into
this strange universe wherepeople were speaking languages
that I didn't understand, and soI just really wanted to
understand that.
So I spent a lot of timeobserving and I spent a lot of
time listening, and that got meto a point where, at one point
in my career, I was working at afour motor company and I had a
(01:45):
leader at that time who was themost unique leader that I'd
never had before, and it reallystarted me thinking about you
know, how do we get people todevelop them in this way, where
they are so effective?
And so that took me on ajourney to like look at my MBA.
It took me on a journey to myPhD.
And then it took me on ajourney to my PhD, and then it
took me on a journey to write.
(02:05):
Be human, leave human to shareeverything that I had learned
and observed with as many peopleas I possibly can.
Jay Johnson (02:12):
That's an incredible story.
So I've actually done work withFord Motor Company and that
long story.
But it's so funny how you kindof like I love the way that you
framed it it's just like whatfelt comfortable, what got you
towards that flow.
When I was at Wayne StateUniversity we had a partnership
with Ford Motor Company for anengineering management master's
(02:33):
program and I was working onthat and at one point in time my
boss came to me and said hey,we're having this issue with,
like, international students andperformance and you study
behavior.
Can you check it out and seewhat's going on?
And I did this program and Iquickly learned from, like in
classroom observation and someinterviews, that there was this
cultural disconnect between theinternational students coming in
(02:57):
and the faculty at Wayne StateUniversity.
So I created a training programfor the students and onboarding
, and then I also created atraining program for the faculty
on cultural adaptability.
It was really successful.
All of a sudden, like, thestudents start performing and a
faculty member comes up to me,pats me on the back and says,
hey, you're pretty good at this,you should do this for a living
.
That's how I got into trade.
(03:19):
That is one I was like maybe Iwill.
Yeah, I understand, but but itdid.
It felt so natural and justfelt like the right space to be
in, and I love helping peopleand I love solving challenges.
So let's talk about a couple ofthings, and I want to go back to
(03:39):
the study of music, the studyof language and everything else,
because you do some differenttrainings that incorporate a lot
of that knowledge and a lot ofthat experience that you have.
But before we go there, I wantto dig in just a little bit in
your bio, in your book title andin even a number of the things
that I heard you say.
You reference human and itseems to me that you're a really
(04:03):
strong people person and youknow, in making that connection
and making that you know, be youknow even from the title of
your book, be Human, lead Human.
Let's dig into that.
I'd like to get to know you alittle bit more from that
perspective, and I'm sure theaudience would too.
Where does this interest orwhere does this sort of like
(04:24):
direction come from for you?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (04:28):
You mean like from a perspective of like.
Why is the human element keepcoming up to the forefront for
me?
Jay Johnson (04:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (04:35):
Yeah.
So I think there's a couplereasons.
I think one is you know how Igrew up and the things that were
prioritized in my first familyand the values that were there.
I think that has a big part todo with that.
I also think that as I wentthrough my education, you know,
(04:57):
there were certain things thatwould elevate that human element
and there were other thingsthat would sort of, you know,
decrease it, and I saw thathappen in the workplace as well.
It was almost like when I wentinto the business world I had to
leave part of myself at thedoor because it wasn't safe to
(05:18):
show the other talents andskills and capabilities that I
was bringing, because I feltvery vulnerable and it didn't
feel like it was a place where Icould share those things.
Yet those were the things thatreally helped me stand out and
be that outstanding performer,you know, because I had all
those different, unique skillsand abilities that most people
around me didn't have, and so Ithought a little bit differently
(05:41):
and it helped me change myperformance and I saw that that
wasn't the case, maybe, forpeople around me.
So when I would get feedbacklike, oh, you've just got to
have a thicker skin or, oh, youknow, um, you just need to get
out of your own way.
Um, you know, I would get a lotof feedback like that.
(06:03):
Or, you know, the team has justbeen waiting for you to like
catch up with them, like whereare you, you know?
So I would get a lot offeedback that sort of didn't
jive with me feeling safe tobring my whole self to work, and
so a lot of the people that Icoach now, you know, I hear that
reflected in different waysLike I'm not, I don't feel safe
(06:24):
at work, physically orpsychologically.
I don't feel, um, like I can bemy emotional self, right, I
don't feel like I can display myemotions, because if I display
them in a certain way, that I'mlooked at as being aggressive,
if I display them in a differentway, that I'm looked at as
being weak, and that dynamiccontinues in all these different
(06:49):
areas.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I hear most often
from the leaders that I coach isthat I have to be perfect, I
have to know all of the answers,I have to have all of the
answers, and I think, when itcomes to being a leader, you
know who we are as a leader haseverything to do with who we are
(07:09):
as a human being.
So if we can't be our humanselves when we show up and lean
into that leadership identity,then we're doing a disservice to
ourselves and we're doing adisservice to the people around
us and we're doing a disserviceto the world at large.
Jay Johnson (07:24):
Yeah, and I want to draw some parallels there, you
know, with our audience.
I guarantee there's somebodyout there that's listening right
now.
Whether you're a coach, whetheryou're a trainer, whether
you're the HR person in yourorganization, I guarantee that
they have felt that same stingof like oh my gosh, I have to
know everything.
I got to be perfect, I got todo this, you know, and, and what
(07:44):
a, what a difficult, you knowwhat a difficult experience to
sort of regulate Right, and wewonder why imposter syndrome is
constantly, you know, rising indifferent places.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou speak to is the
psychological safety and and andimmediately I kind of came to,
uh, I kind of came to that of,uh, you know, Dr Edmondson's
(08:05):
work and even of Dr Brown's work, Brene Brown, and that sort of
our ability to show up asourselves.
There's nothing more powerfulthan that, both for the
organization but also for theindividual who is, you know,
seeking to be valued and seenand heard.
(08:25):
So you came from a number youknow, Ford Motor Company, which
is a strong engineering andtechnical company and I've even
seen, you know, in your, in yourbio you also have worked with,
like IBM and Google, and and anumber of Boeing and a number of
other ones, and in thoseenvironments, especially the
manufacturing space, I've seenthat sort of I don't want to
(08:49):
call it the macho behavior,almost the yeah, put your head
down, get your work done, Don'tcomplain, Don't do anything,
Don't have feelings until youcheck out at 5 pm.
We know how damaging that is toboth the individuals, to
cultural, psychological safety.
What are some of the thingsthat maybe you did to overcome
(09:10):
some of that challenge, Jennifer, Because I think that that
would be really insightful forpeople that maybe are
experiencing the same thing.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (09:18):
Yeah, you know that's a great question and
the answering that makes mereally vulnerable.
You know, one of the firstthings I would say is that I
didn't realize the damage thatit was doing to me, because I
would always feel like when Iwent into work, when I first
started my career in thebusiness world, when I went into
work, I would literally feellike, okay, I'm getting dressed
(09:39):
and I am literally putting on myarmor, I'm putting on my suit,
because at the time I worked atEDS and so we had to wear
business professional dress,right, so men's hair could not
be below their collar, shoes hadto be shined, women had to wear
pantyhose.
I mean, it was a very you know,very hierarchical, very
militaristic kind of culture atthe time, and so to help protect
(10:03):
myself psychologically, I wouldthink, okay, I'm putting on my
suit, right, this is my armor,this is going to protect me
today, and I'd walk in the door.
Now I knew that when I wasthere, I got my first job there
because I spoke French, and so Iwas working with French
Canadian dealers and sorry, Ishould say automotive, french
(10:23):
Canadian automotive dealers andhelping them diagnose their
vehicles through the servicestalls that were in the
technician and the dealerships.
So, even though I wasn'tphysically on site with the
dealers, it was just somethingthat allowed me to change my
mindset of okay, this is theidentity I'm going to have here
(10:47):
at work.
This is me.
I get to bring in this part ofme, the foreign language part,
that loves that and interactingwith people and getting to know
them and learning who they areand learn their stories and then
help support them in solvingtheir problems.
And, at the same time, what Iwas evaluated on was how quickly
I was solving their problem onthe phone.
And so the time it would takeme to build the relationship
(11:10):
with that client or the customerand help them solve their
problem, and why I was so goodat what I did was exactly why I
was being evaluated negativelybecause I was taking too long in
building the relationship.
I wasn't approaching it from aan American business style of,
oh, let's just solve yourproblem long in building the
relationship.
I wasn't approaching it from anAmerican business style of oh,
let's just solve your problemand get off the phone.
That's not how it works in alot of other parts of the world.
(11:35):
And so there were these elementsthat always kept popping up and
reminding me that, even thoughI'm trying to be human and I'm
trying to connect with peopleand I'm trying to be human and
I'm trying to connect withpeople and I'm trying to build
those relationships, I wasconstantly getting messaging
that my KPIs were off.
So that was one of the waysthat I would try to counteract
that right.
I would try to spend more timeon the relationship building,
(11:58):
even though I was gettingknocked out on that from a
performance perspective.
Another way that I would that Iwould build into my work day to
help me, like, get grounded wasI always love being outside.
I love being outdoors.
I love being in nature we werejust talking about.
You know the fact that you liveon this beautiful lake and you
know how much I miss the treesand the freshwater lakes in
(12:20):
Michigan, and so I would alwaystry to just get outside on my
lunch hour and go for some kindof walk in nature, whatever I
could find around the businessbuilding.
It's so powerful it's sopowerful and it would just help
me shift Right and it wouldremind me and ground me and
center me that this is still me,like I am still here, like my
whole being is still here, right, and that psychologically,
(12:42):
would help me.
And then I think the thirdthing that helped me was just
really understanding, like, howhard it was for me to try to be
two different people, right,that I'd have to be this
identity in this person at work,that I couldn't be my whole
self and I had to leave, youknow, part of that self outside
the door.
And that emotional labor oftrying to do that after a
(13:05):
certain point it just got to betoo much for me and so I decided
to look for a job in adifferent place where I could
bring, bring more of myself towork and that my different,
unique background wasn't viewedas maybe it was viewed as more
of a positive in that way.
Jay Johnson (13:22):
You know and thank you for thank you.
You for sharing that because Ithink it's so important for
people to hear it and I knowthat you know tapping into that
vulnerability.
I really appreciate you andhaving the courage to kind of
talk about some of those thingsbecause I don't think that
they're talked about enough.
You know, we know from theresearch in psychological
(13:42):
literature, let alone theneuroscientific literature,
about the impact, the impact onour brain it has when we have to
compartmentalize aspects of ouridentity or essentially shelter
them or hide them or suppressthem, and what that actually
does to our physical andemotional and even mental well
being.
And we know that it's, we knowthat it's devastating.
(14:03):
And yet this, these, thesepractices, in many cases still
exist in a number of differentworkplaces.
So kudos to you for being ableto navigate that, being able to
find that path.
So your book title is Be Human,lead Human, if you could.
What does it mean to lead human?
If you can help our audiencemaybe understand what are some
of the concepts of leading human.
(14:24):
So I are some of the conceptsof leading human.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (14:26):
So I think one of the concepts of leading
human first and foremost isbelieving that it's people that
create the value in theorganization.
So, in contrast to maybe theolder old school thinking that
it's products and services thatcreate value, leading human a
principle of that is that youbelieve that people create value
(14:48):
.
So if you don't have the people, you can't create the products,
you can't create the services,you can't create the strategy.
So starting with that is yourcore and then it goes out from
there.
So a second principle is whenyou lead human, you believe that
an organization is a placewhere people come to grow and
evolve, as well as they come towork and deliver output.
Jay Johnson (15:09):
I like that.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (15:10):
Yes, and that's in contrast to the old
school thinking, where peoplejust came to work, to work,
that's all they did and thenthey went home right, because
there were no other dimensionsto the person.
Jay Johnson (15:21):
It's a much more holistic way to actually look at
, because we spend a lot of ourlife and we know that we have
limited number of breaths thatwe get to take.
We spend a lot of those at workor in work, and to be able to
yeah, that's super powerful.
I really like that framing.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (15:36):
Yes, so that's the second one.
There's 10 of them, but thoseare the first two.
So when I talk about leadinghuman, it is a way to think
about and practice leadershipthat diverges the old school
command and control model andputs you into a place of being
more of a coach and facilitator,because the role of a leader is
(15:57):
actually evolving.
To be that coach andfacilitator and help people
understand how AI is impactingthem, how it impacts their role,
sort of be that translator forthem to see how can they use AI
to help them perform at theirbest and use more of their human
skills.
Right, what makes us human?
Ai is fantastic because it'sgoing to take all of that
(16:19):
administrabia, take over all ofthat, so we can spend our time
doing more of what makes ushuman that creativity, that
collaboration, that innovation,all of those things that you
know AI isn't necessarily goodat.
And I think there's a piecearound like that leading human,
which it's also this idea of.
(16:39):
You can make mistakes, right,it's okay to make a mistake.
It's okay to not knoweverything.
It's not realistic to knoweverything at this point,
because things are changing soquickly.
You can't know everything.
And so, as a leader, when youadopt that mindset and you
accept the fact that I can'tknow everything, and it's okay
(17:01):
to not know everything, and it'salso okay to make mistakes,
because we're human, we'refallible.
That gives everyone else aroundyou the permission and the role
they see, that role modelbehavior, to also be human
themselves.
So that's what I mean by leadhuman, be human, be human, lead
(17:22):
human.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
That makes a lot of sense.
You know, and it's interestingthat you talk about sort of the
shift for leaders.
You know, and a lot of and alot of what.
And help me understand, andmaybe you've seen this in your
space.
You know, when we look atsomething like the leadership
function and I'm not even justtalking about executive
leadership, I mean like firstlevel managers we see a lot of
(17:44):
people getting moved intoleadership positions, usually
because they were great atperforming, they did something
awesome.
They get bumped up and then theyrealize and then within like I
think it's a study that sayslike within 18 months they're
seen as underperforming.
And part of it is is thedifference in skill set, right
To manage a group of peopleversus being an individual
(18:06):
contributor obviously verydifferent.
If you're seeing this sort ofemerging trend of leaders
becoming more coaches, morefacilitators, those are
obviously very different skills,as our audience on this podcast
is going to know, because a lotof them are facilitators,
coaches, trainers.
Cast is going to know, becausea lot of them are facilitators,
coaches, trainers.
Have you seen two questionshere?
(18:27):
Have you seen either a littlebit of resistance from
leadership?
Do they see that as their sortof pathway to the future?
And then the second question ishow can we, as talent
development professionals,prepare leaders to essentially
do what we're good at usually,you know, coaching, training,
facilitating, etc.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (18:47):
Yeah.
So I think the first part ofthat question is really around
how leaders are thinking aboutthe role of a leader.
How do they identify that?
And if that identity isshifting and changing, then what
does it mean for them as aperson?
What does it mean for them as ahuman?
How is their identity shiftingand changing?
And what I'm finding with theclients I'm working with is that
(19:10):
they're not comfortable, likewe're not comfortable with
change.
For the most part, they want togo back to status quo.
They want to go back to whatthey know, and what they know is
command and control, becausethat's what they observed, it's
what they learned, it's whatthey mimicked, it's what they
role modeled, and there aren'tthat many other examples for
them to see that are divergent.
Jay Johnson (19:30):
Do you think it's also on some level and I've seen
this before in some and maybenot all, but some leaders, I
think, go back to that commandand control because it seems
easier, right, Like it's just,like.
No, just do what I say and thenI don't have to explain, I
don't have to justify, I don'thave to give information, I
(19:52):
don't have to go through therigmarole of collaboration, it's
just get it done.
And I, going back to what wewere talking about earlier, I
think there are someorganizations that still reward
that kind of behavior.
But you know, from that, fromthat perspective, is that sort
of the resistance, you know, thepiece to the resistance of no,
I just want to get this donebecause I can do it fast, as
opposed to putting the effort inof collaborating, communicating
(20:14):
, connecting, or is it somethingelse?
That's sort of creating thatresistance?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (20:19):
I think there's a couple of things that
create that resistance.
I think, first and foremost,our performance systems and
organizations are broken.
So when we look at how weevaluate and reward people for
their performance, we typicallyask them right now, these days,
to collaborate in teams, but weevaluate them individually.
So that's a disconnect rightthere, number one.
So there is no incentive inmost organizations for people to
(20:43):
operate differently, honestly,for lack of a better term.
Jay Johnson (20:47):
We need the old report card that says does not
play well in the sand withothers.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (20:53):
Exactly exactly Like if you look at
anybody's report card these days.
Is there anything on thereabout how well do you coach, how
well do you facilitate?
How well do you help yourpeople collaborate?
How well do you solve problemsas a team?
Like there's nothing on there.
It's typically all individual.
So that's the first thing.
I think the second thing isaround.
(21:14):
It's scary to do something newand when you don't have the
tools in your toolbox to eventry something new and you don't
have any resources around you tohelp guide you and advise you,
when you're try something newand you don't have any resources
around you to help guide youand advise you when you're
trying something new, it's ascary place and organizations
will eject outliers.
So if you're in a system andyou're operating differently
(21:37):
from what that system knows is astatus quo or the default,
you're going to get out.
You're going to get.
You're going to get ejectedfrom the system.
That's number two, and I thinknumber three is there is still a
mindset of well, this is howwe've always done it.
Jay Johnson (21:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (21:57):
So this is how we've always done it and it
seems to be working, then whywould we change?
So I think it's a combinationof, like the external drivers,
the internal motivators and thismindset shift that needs to
take place.
Jay Johnson (22:14):
And that makes a lot of sense, right, like when
we think about change and itsimpact on us.
Human beings do not loveuncertainty, and ultimately,
it's usually some kind ofuncertainty that brings us back
to the status quo because of thecomfortability and because, hey
, I can predict this and ourancient, ancient brain is going
if I can predict it, I cansurvive it.
(22:35):
If I can't predict it, well,who knows?
It's all up in the air, so Ican see that being a heavy piece
of resistance.
So how do we get leaders tosort of take this role of
getting, hey, you know what?
This is the future, this isgoing to help you, this is going
to help your culture, this isgoing to take us forward Because
, again, some of our audience isin that sort of coaching space
(22:56):
of working with these leaders.
How do we get them to buy intothis and to be good at it?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (23:01):
Right?
So I'm going to tell you a verybrief story that I tell in the
book, and it's it has as itslever for motivating people into
why they should do this as aquantitative outcome.
Right, because what mostorganizations are looking at is
the bottom line.
For motivating people into whythey should do this as a
quantitative outcome right,because what most organizations
are looking at is the bottomline.
So if it doesn't impact thebottom line, they're not
interested.
And most organizations arestill operating that way, right?
(23:24):
So when I was at Ford, I wasworking in a certain department
and the economy was pretty badat the time and our department
decided that they would have aappreciation day for employees
to try to boost morale and boostengagement.
And so they bought some ofthese paper plates and they put
them on tables in the main floor, in the main hallway, and they
(23:46):
invited everyone to come downand fill out a paper plate.
And they wanted it to be aplate of appreciation.
So they wanted you to write anote to someone else about what
you appreciated about them andgive it to them.
I'm like great, I think this isfantastic.
So I go down there and I'mthinking about who am I going to
write my plate to, and at thetime Ford had just celebrated
its 100th anniversary and BillFord had stepped down from the
(24:11):
CEO role and he had brought inAlan Mulally to run the company.
And Alan had his hands fullbecause things were not doing so
well.
The company had just lost $17billion and we were basically
trying to stay afloat.
So I thought, you know, I'mgoing to write my plate to Alan
because he could probably use ahug right now.
He's got a pretty tough jobgoing on and he probably doesn't
(24:33):
have, you know, very manypeople that he can talk to about
it, because it's pretty lonelyup at that top of the house.
So I wrote my plate to him andI said you know, dear alan, you
know, thank you for being thischange that we needed to see.
You know to so we can surviveanother hundred years.
So I decorated this plate withsome superman stickers and I
stuck it in an inner officeenvelope and I, like, know, use
that twine to make the littlefigure.
(24:54):
And then I stuck theconfidential sticker over that
and I addressed it to World TechOrders and, you know, sent it
off and so and I didn't think ofanything else on it.
So a couple of weeks later, Iget this voice message and
actually no.
So I get sorry.
I get this voice message andit's like my boss's boss's boss
(25:16):
asking me to come down to theiroffice.
And I'm like, oh boy, you know,because at this time, like bad
right, the economy is really badand everyone has boxes under
their desk because they don'tknow if they're going to be let
go that day.
So I get this message and I'mlike, oh, this isn't really what
I wanted to hear.
So I like, you know, I havethis pit in my stomach, you know
.
So I'm walking down to thisboss's office and, um, there,
(25:38):
when I get there, there's around table in the middle of the
room.
In the middle of the tablethere was an inner office
envelope and there's like threeor four leaders standing around
the table.
And, jay, I looked at thatoffice envelope and I knew
exactly what it was and it wasopen.
And one of the leaders says youknow, we, um, you know, we
(26:00):
understand this is from you.
And I'm like, yes, it is.
And they're like we can't getthis to Alan.
I said, well, what do you mean?
You can't get it to Alan?
Like, did interoffice, did welet the interoffice mail people
go, like I know things are tough, but like you know what, why
not?
And they said, well, we just,you know, we don't think it's
appropriate.
So we're going to ask you totake it back.
(26:20):
And I was not happy about that,to say the least.
Yeah, and so I said, okay, well, on one hand I didn't lose my
job, so I guess that's good, buton the other hand, like they're
basically telling me that myvoice doesn't matter, and I'm
really not happy about that.
So I I I said nothing else.
(26:43):
I took it back.
I walked out of their office.
I walked straight out to my car.
I got in my car and went overto world headquarters, went up
to the 12th floor.
Alan wasn't in, so I asked hisadmin if she could please give
him this envelope when he gotback and she said, sure, no
problem.
And so I walked.
But, you know, I went back downthe 12 stairs, walked back to
my car and went back to my desk.
Jay Johnson (27:00):
Good for you.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (27:02):
Yeah.
And so a couple weeks later,you know, I'm like I get this
voicemail on my phone and it'sactually Alan and he's telling
me how much this plate ofappreciation meant to him.
And then he has a tear in hiseye because it just moved him so
much.
And I am shocked because here'sthis guy who's trying to save
the company.
I'm this people leader far downthe ladder that he has never
(27:24):
even met, and yet he takes thetime to thank me for doing
something that I did for him.
This was amazing to me.
This is 16 years that I've beenworking at this point in
business and this is the firsttime that I saw a leader who
acted this way.
Jay Johnson (27:42):
It's such a powerful story.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (27:44):
I couldn't believe it.
And so, and it continues, andso a couple of weeks later, I
get an interoffice envelope inthe mail and it's stuffed full
of stuff.
And so I opened it up andthere's all this sports swag in
it.
And, and so I opened it up andthere's all this Ford swag in it
.
And the best part about it isthat there's this letter,
handwritten letter, in thisenvelope and it says, dear
Jennifer, and it has a heartaround the Jennifer.
And it says, you know justwhatever his message was.
(28:06):
And then it said you know, alan, and I just I sat back in my
chair and I just started cryingbecause this was the first time
that, like, I felt seen and Ifelt that I mattered in an
organization, and it was aleader like Alan who took the
time to make me feel that way.
(28:29):
And I just really wanted tounderstand why are there not
more leaders like this?
Why do we not have more leadersthat take a couple seconds out
of their day or a couple minutesout of their day to do these
simple gestures that help peoplefeel that they matter and that
what they do makes a difference,and that it wasn't just the
output that I could deliver forFord Motor Company.
(28:50):
That mattered it was that I wasa human being who had all these
different facets to me, and hetook the time to recognize that
and see that, and that was thecatalyst for me to go back and
finish my MBA.
It was the catalyst for me togo back and do my PhD and study
what makes outstanding leadersdifferentiated from average
(29:11):
leaders, and it was the catalystfor me to write this book and
share everything that I learnedabout how can leaders rethink
what they think about leadershipand what that looks like.
And so when you look at Alan'stenure at Ford Motor Company, at
the end of his tenure the stockprice had gone up 1,837%.
(29:31):
His employee engagement rateshad gone from 40% to 93%.
Now it takes very little timeto do what he did, and yet he
managed to change the entireculture at Ford Motor Company by
just simply being more humanand leading human, and he got
(29:52):
those kinds of top and bottomline results.
So I would ask all of the HRpeople that's listening to this
and all of the coaches andfacilitators if you can get
those kinds of results, whywould you not want to follow a
leadership approach like thisthat optimizes performance?
And if they can do it at FordMotor Company in an organization
(30:13):
that was so hierarchical and sotop down from a leadership
style, it should be possible inmany other organizations.
Jay Johnson (30:23):
There's so much power in what you just said.
And I'm thinking about itbecause when I first started
doing work with Ford, it was2003.
And I actually had theopportunity to meet with Alan
multiple times and every singletime I'm like I'm standing here
in front of the CEO and he knowsmy name, and he says my name
(30:46):
and he asks me what my thoughtwas when we were doing some
consulting projects through theuniversity inside of there, and
he's like well, what, what doyou think, jay?
And I'm like I just got askedby the CEO, my opinion I am, you
know, this is in God, this isliterally I'm, I'm, I'm a 20
something year old and I'm likewhy are you even asking me the
like I was in awe and the, theentire, the entire
(31:10):
implementation of the one Fordduring that time, and to your
point, the a skip level meeting,going just one above your boss
at that point in time, was ahell worthy trespass, you know.
So I I can imagine like thelooks on your boss's boss's boss
face when, when it's like whatdo you?
This is like the ultimate skip,right.
(31:33):
I am so impressed that you hadthe, the, the strength, the
courage, the tenacity to say no,I'm going to drive this down,
I'm going to drop it off andeverything and I don't.
I wouldn't claim to know himwell or anything like that, but
anytime that I had interactedwith him I would have bet bottom
dollar that he would haveappreciated that gesture.
Just so to hear you confirmthat really honestly warms my
(31:55):
heart.
But yeah, what an incrediblestory, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (32:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you know I share thatstory.
You know, not to toot my ownhorn, but to show that like this
is not soft and fluffy.
This is not woo-woo, this isnot kumbaya.
This is an actual approach toleadership that changes
performance dramatically.
And in this era where thingsare so competitive right, we're
(32:23):
in this world and ai is justcoming the differentiator is how
we can help people interactwith one another, collaborate
with one another, work,collaborate with one another,
work together effectively anddeliver that outstanding
performance.
And it doesn't take a lot oftime, it doesn't take a lot of
extras, it just takes having thework and shifting the mindset
(32:47):
that we're going to do thistogether.
And here's how we're going tooperate together and here's how
we're going to interact together.
And, as you know, from that oneforward, we had our behaviors
on that card.
Jay Johnson (32:58):
On the card.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (32:59):
Exactly what was expected, and if you didn't
adhere to that, then everyoneelse in the room would hold you
accountable to that.
Jay Johnson (33:08):
And correct your behavior.
A self-correcting culture whichis so powerful.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (33:13):
Exactly self-correcting culture which is
so powerful, exactly so.
I invite people listening Ifthere is any any interest in
driving performance that exceedstoday's performance to take a
look at this book.
Take a look at Alan's story.
It's, it's it's in manydifferent places, right, but I
talk about it in the book aswell and learn.
(33:35):
You know how can you shift theculture.
Because that's what Alan did heshifted the culture, he shifted
the behaviors and hedemonstrated what it looks like
to be a leader who coaches andfacilitates to deliver that
performance.
Jay Johnson (33:49):
It's the difference between going to work and
executing tasks and going towork and elevating moments right
, like bringing people anexperience, and if you're doing
that for the people at work, itgenerally translates to your
customers, it generallytranslates to your suppliers.
It's a ripple effect, right?
And I want to go back.
You said something a littleways back about how you were
(34:12):
performing and how it didn'tmatch up with the KPIs, and I
have experienced the same thingin working with physicians and
I've gotten to work with somereally really high level, high
level healthcare organizationseverybody from Johns Hopkins to
University of Michigan HealthSystems and it's always
fascinating to me.
So one of my backgrounds or oneof my degrees is in health
(34:34):
communication and I studied theconcept of narrative medicine.
And what they did was theyevaluated the difference between
a doctor, a physician, a nurseor whomever who spent more time
on average with their patientsthan the others.
Well, the KPIs is you got tomake sure that you're touching
(34:54):
everybody or that you're gettingenough people through the door,
and so on and so forth.
And when they shifted the ideaof okay is the KPI how many
people you see per day?
Or the health outcomes of thepeople that you see each day,
bar none, those that took thetime to build the relationship,
the connection, to betterunderstand, not only were they
(35:15):
getting more information, theywere getting the information
faster.
And they were.
You know, people were opening upquicker and they were giving,
so they were literally matchingpace with the colleagues.
That was just like what's wrong, your elbow hurts.
Take two of these.
Call me in the morning Next,and you, they were literally
matching pace with that, maybejust a little bit slower, but
(35:35):
not even significantly orstatistically significantly, but
their health outcomes wereleagues away from their patients
to somebody else's.
So it's just, it's so importantand I love that you're bringing
that to this space.
You know, building thoseconnections, creating those
connections and really workingto focus on creating a culture
(36:00):
and environment where people arefelt and seen.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (36:03):
Yeah, and you know the thing, the thing that
I notice so often is that wehave so much focus in
organizations on building thosetechnical skills right, the
functional expertise, and that'stable stakes.
We need that.
That has to be there.
But what often gets omitted ornot even addressed is these
human and relational skills thatmake all the difference in
(36:25):
combination with those technicalskills.
You know, I've created amasterclass that offers you know
, coaches and organizations andfacilitators the opportunity to
help them elevate those skillsright.
We need that upskilling todayto help people gain both the
technical expertise and thehuman and relational pieces so
(36:45):
they can be so effective in thatway.
Jay Johnson (36:50):
I want to dig, you know, and I want to be mindful
of our time here.
But I do want to dig intosomething else.
You know you had mentionedearlier on um, you know an
interest in the arts and inmusic and you know sort of like
the the beautiful culturalthings of life and you've
brought some of that into yourwork and into your space.
You incorporate it into yourcoaching, your training, um,
(37:11):
talk to me, what does that looklike for you and how do you
bring those sort of unique?
Because not everybody brings.
You know, everybody has adifferent set of interests or
backgrounds or qualities andsometimes we don't feel
comfortable bringing that into aspace.
You know, like I don't bring myhockey, you know background
into a space.
Sometimes that could maybe Italk about it.
(37:31):
I'll tell a few stories.
But, you know, help usunderstand.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (37:34):
You look like Wayne Gretzky a little bit.
Jay Johnson (37:37):
That's super kind.
I certainly didn't play likehim.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (37:42):
I'm a big Wayne Gretzky fan, by the way.
Jay Johnson (37:44):
Me too, me too.
So, how do you, how do youincorporate that to bring that
sort of piece of you into thespace, and how would you advise
maybe some of our people thathave some unique characteristics
or some unique aspects of theiridentity?
How would you encourage them tobring theirs out to that space
as well?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (38:05):
So I think, first and foremost, you want to
be comfortable with bringingthat out, because it's sharing a
very personal side of you thatotherwise you wouldn't show
people.
Yeah, so that has to be therefirst and foremost.
And it took a while for me to um, you know, for I think you're
talking about the dance example,right?
So I I offer a course called um, you know, leadership through
(38:25):
ballroom dance, and it's fororganizations and individuals
who are very forward in theirthinking.
Um, because it requires a verydifferent mindset to walk into a
dance studio and say thatyou're going to dance with
someone and learn leadershipthat way.
So I love to dance.
I've actually been dancingsince I was three years old.
(38:46):
I started out in ballet.
My mom and dad put me in balletclasses and then I did tap and
jazz and toe and all of thosethings, and then, as an adult, I
discovered ballroom dance, andso it was just a way for me to
continue connecting with my body, with my brain, Because so
often in the work that I do it'sjust a brain kind of thing, but
(39:08):
your brain is not your bodytaxi.
So I found a way to combine thetwo and do something in doing
what I love and helping peoplethink a little bit differently
about leadership.
Because, you know, do you wantto go to a class where you're
going to sit there and, like,have a seminar on, like you know
, the different theories ofleadership, or do you actually
want to go listen to some greatmusic and, like, dance around a
(39:30):
store and learn leadership thatway?
So it's just a different way tothink about it.
Um, that is actually how Idecided to integrate it, and I
don't know of many people who dothat, and so it's just a unique
differentiator for me.
And you know, I I get somepeople who are interested in
that every once in a while and,um, you know, it's really fun, I
love.
That's one of the favoriteclasses that I teach, actually.
Jay Johnson (39:57):
I absolutely love that.
So I've just startedincorporating one of like my
kind of backgrounds, which Ididn't really talk about out
there.
I like to do survival trips.
So you know we talked a littlebit about the outdoors.
I will go into the woods fivedays, seven days, 10 days, no
food, no water, and just survive.
It's not pretty, it's not clean,it's not always, you know,
sometimes it's successful.
Sometimes it's not pretty, it'snot clean, it's not always, you
know it's, sometimes it'ssuccessful, sometimes it's not
(40:17):
successful.
But I have always found thatthat really helps me build my
resilience, my grit, my criticalthinking, my problem solving.
And just this past year was thefirst time that I had a couple
of people that I had done someconsulting for and they said can
we do that with you?
Can you teach us?
So it wasn't just aboutteaching the survival skills or
(40:39):
the nature, you know,understanding nature but it's
also about sort of like gettinginto the right headspace,
getting into the right mentality, being able to not panic when
something doesn't go your way orwhen maybe you haven't had any
food for three days, and it'sjust like okay.
I'm starting to get real hungrynow.
So I I just started to bringthat into this.
I've been doing this for adecade and this is the first
(41:01):
time this year that I actuallybrought a little piece of that
out and and shared it, and itwas incredible.
It was such an incredibleexperience.
So, how do how do you?
And and I love that you broughtthat up but, like, be
comfortable with it, because, ifyou know, if it is something,
because I didn't ever want totell somebody, yeah, I go into
the woods because and live therefor you know, 10 days and
they're going to probably thinklike, okay, are you a hermit
(41:23):
crab?
Like what are you doing?
You know, what are you doingwith your like health?
What are you eating?
Well, frogs, worms, whatever Ican find.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (41:39):
You know, I've I've trained at NASA and I
also go and live off of bugs forfive days.
Jay Johnson (41:40):
Right Like there's a disconnect.
It feels like there's adisconnect.
Hardcore but you know, so, likeit was always something that I
kind of guarded, and for me itwas because I didn't, oh, no,
yeah.
So, jennifer, the question thatI have is it took me a long time
(42:01):
to be comfortable in being ableto share that out and, sort of
like, bring that part of myidentity forward.
Do you have any recommendationsor thoughts of how can we be
more comfortable taking thatfirst chance or maybe leaning
into being vulnerable in a spacethat we're not 100% certain of?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (42:25):
Yeah.
So I think it's a greatquestion and I think one of the
things that first comes to mindfor me is there needs to be that
level of trust right.
There needs to be that trustbetween you and the client, or
you and the people that aregoing to be receiving this
training that you know for somemay be really out of the box and
it may be really out of theircomfort zone.
So, having that safe space,first of all, where you know you
(42:45):
can bring this and it won't berejected right, because we're
all afraid of rejection and thatit will be received with an
open mindset, and that there'sthat trust there that you're
bringing them something that youbelieve will be beneficial for
them and help them get to wherethey want to be.
Jay Johnson (43:06):
You know, I love that because it's as true in
that space as it is in any otherspace.
At that point in time, rightLike, we have to have that trust
.
We have to have that open sortof like agreement with each
other, like, hey, I'm going togive a little of me, you're
going to give a little bit ofyou, and we're going to meet and
something beautiful is going tooccur.
(43:27):
Now I happened, and in mystudies of neuroscience it's
really interesting.
I have actually studied acouple of the different articles
that had come out about theimpact of dance on the human
brain and I thought it wasfascinating.
It's actually a really healthypractice for us to do Like if
(43:49):
there's something with oxytocinthat comes in from the social
bonding aspect of it, somethingfrom the dopaminergic drive that
comes from, like, the movementand everything else.
But a lot of people are afraidto dance.
How do you get somebody?
And I think this hasapplicability in a lot of spaces
.
When we're taught something orwhen we're engaging in some form
(44:11):
of training, sometimes we havesome resistance to it.
We're going to look silly, thisisn't going to work, and our
brain comes into place andstarts putting these barriers up
.
How do you get people to maybeovercome some of those barriers
in a really fun way, like whenwe're teaching through dance?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (44:27):
Yeah, so you know, one of the first things I
like to tell is you know thestory of, you know, my husband,
like he always likes to say,like he has two left feet.
Well, he started dance lessonsand now he's realized he does
have a right foot and a leftfoot.
He's fortunate enough to haveboth of his feet, and so I share
that, because it takes somecourage and vulnerability for
(44:49):
someone to go into a space wherethey don't know anything.
They're very uncomfortable,everything is unfamiliar and yet
everything is so new andexciting and there's something
to be learned there.
And so having that beginner'smindset, first and foremost, I
think, is a way to help peopleget over that discomfort that,
(45:09):
hey, you know what.
You're not going to be the bestdancer in the world when you set
out on the floor this veryfirst time, and that's okay.
We're not expecting that, right, and you shouldn't be expecting
that of yourself either.
How can you expect to beperfect at this?
You know, because that's whatwe all want to be right.
(45:31):
We all want to be great andperfect at it when you've never
done it before.
That's not realistic.
So, taking away some of thosehelping people, take away some
of the expectations that theyput on themselves and that
pressure that they put onthemselves, and just allow them
to be in that space where theycan discover and play and learn,
just like when they were kids.
No one expected you to beperfect at anything when you
were a kid.
You just got to be experiencingand living and being naturally
(45:54):
curious about things and thewhole world just opened up to
you in that way because youdidn't have any limits on
yourself.
So I see you know, dance in ina way as an opportunity for
people to step into thisdifferent version of themselves
that maybe they don't even knowexisted.
Jay Johnson (46:13):
I love that.
So I I've been listening to DrPaul Conti, who's famous
psychologist, exceptional atwhat he does, and he talks about
that.
He's just, like you know, sooften, so often we criticize
ourselves.
But if we were to think aboutit and, like you know, talking
about it from the frame of shameand guilt and affect, et cetera
(46:35):
, if we were to think about likethat 12 year old version of us,
or even that six year oldversion of us that's just
starting to learn how to dance,are we going to be like you suck
, you're terrible, you're awful,and you know.
But we do that to ourselves asadults.
We just we, we expect like ohmy gosh, I'm shameful because
how bad I am at this.
(46:55):
But you know, give, giving alittle grace, being a little
kind, recognizing this is a big,beautiful world full of big
beautiful experiences, and toget to those experiences, we
just got to take that first stepand maybe be a little kind to
ourselves.
So what I hear you saying,jennifer, is there's hope for me
.
You know a former hockey player, former mixed martial artist
(47:18):
that also probably has a littlebit of two left feet on a dance
floor.
There's hope for me, then.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (47:23):
I think there is hope for everyone, and if
you already know how to iceskate because you play hockey,
you are going to be fine on thedance floor.
Just pretend that you don'thave the blades on your feet.
Jay Johnson (47:33):
So maybe I'll give it a shot.
You know I really love thisbecause I think it's so
applicable in so many ways.
So, you know, from our audienceperspective, our ability to
bring our authentic self in issomething so important that we
can really leverage our ownpersonal, unique experiences to
(47:53):
deliver some kind of knowledgeor skill or something in a
unique and sort of well, I guessauthentic way.
And getting people on board isprobably very much the way that
we got on board to it when wefirst started out in that space.
So helping them navigate thatinternal voice, that shame, that
(48:16):
guilt, that fear, might just bewhat gets them to actually take
action from the training.
So, jennifer, as we wrap uphere, I want to ask you, you
know, if you were to get, if youwere to go back and give
yourself, give your, your, yourbeginning trainer self, a piece
of advice, what advice wouldthat be?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (48:50):
advice would that be?
Um, I would say that if I hadto go back to that person, I was
back.
Then.
I would say it's okay to nothave all the answers and it's
okay to tell people you don'tknow, but you'll find out.
Or is there somebody in theroom that could help me, because
I don't know everything andmaybe there's the collective
wisdom here that can help usfigure that out together.
(49:12):
I think that's the advice Iwould give myself, because back
then I was just my gosh.
I'm up there in front of allthese people.
They're seeing me as the expert.
I have to know everything, likeand, and that was just so
unrealistic and it placed somuch pressure on me and it made
it not fun in that way.
You know, I was doing thatbecause I love doing that, not
because I felt like, oh, I haveto know everything, and that was
(49:33):
an immense amount of pressureon me.
That was unrealistic.
So I think that's the advice Iwould give myself.
I think that's the advice.
Jay Johnson (49:40):
I would give myself .
I think that's incredibleadvice.
So thank you again for comingback to the Talent Force to
finish this conversation, and Ireally think that this is such a
powerful conversation for ouraudience and just all of the
tips and tactics that you'vebeen able to share, everything
from that vulnerability to beingthat authentic self, so
(50:01):
powerful.
So thank you, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:03):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, jay.
I hope this was helpful foryour audience, and it's just
been a pleasure to talk with you.
I really enjoyed ourconversations.
Jay Johnson (50:12):
Now, if our audience wanted to get in touch
with you, where might they beable to contact you?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:17):
Yeah, so if they want to learn more, they
can go to my website.
That's drjennifernashcom.
That's drjennifernashcom, andthey can also find me over on
LinkedIn.
Jay Johnson (50:28):
Awesome.
Well, we'll make sure thatthat's in the show notes and
again, thank you so much forbeing here with me.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:35):
Oh, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it and youknow, for any organizations that
might be listening, I do have aLeadership Through Ballroom
Dance workshop, so if they'relooking at something cutting
edge for 2025, I am happy totalk about that with them.
Jay Johnson (50:50):
That's incredible.
I'm going to be signing up forsomething here.
Thank you, jennifer, and thankyou, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the Talent Forge, where, together, we are
shaping the future of trainingand development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, I have a special guest,Dr.
Jennifer Nash, who is aleadership consultant and an
award-winning and best-sellingauthor of the book Be Human,
lead Human.
Welcome to the show, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (00:18):
Thank you so much for having me, Jay.
I'm delighted to be here.
Jay Johnson (00:21):
All right.
So we heard a little bit aboutyou.
You're an author, you're aconsultant and I love the title
Be Human, lead Human.
So we're going to dig into thata little bit.
But let's let the audience getto know you a little bit better.
How did you make your way intothis space and into talent
development and into consultingand coaching?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (00:39):
You know, Jay , I really feel like I've been
doing this work my entire life.
I just didn't know, like, whatit was called or what the path
was to get there.
And so I think, like all of us,you know, we start out doing
the things that we love and,over time, like everything just
sort of comes together into thatpuzzle where it creates a space
where we're playing in thespace where we play to our
(01:00):
strengths and we're in flow.
And so for me, like I startedout my career in the automotive
industry, and one of the thingsthat helped me be very
successful there was my abilityto listen and observe, and so I
came from a background that youknow was more on the like art
side of the house.
So I have a background in pianoand dance and foreign languages
(01:22):
.
So going into the business worldfor me it was like going into
this strange universe wherepeople were speaking languages
that I didn't understand, and soI just really wanted to
understand that.
So I spent a lot of timeobserving and I spent a lot of
time listening, and that got meto a point where, at one point
in my career, I was working at afour motor company and I had a
(01:45):
leader at that time who was themost unique leader that I'd
never had before, and it reallystarted me thinking about you
know, how do we get people todevelop them in this way, where
they are so effective?
And so that took me on ajourney to like look at my MBA.
It took me on a journey to myPhD.
And then it took me on ajourney to my PhD, and then it
took me on a journey to write.
(02:05):
Be human, leave human to shareeverything that I had learned
and observed with as many peopleas I possibly can.
Jay Johnson (02:12):
That's an incredible story.
So I've actually done work withFord Motor Company and that
long story.
But it's so funny how you kindof like I love the way that you
framed it it's just like whatfelt comfortable, what got you
towards that flow.
When I was at Wayne StateUniversity we had a partnership
with Ford Motor Company for anengineering management master's
(02:33):
program and I was working onthat and at one point in time my
boss came to me and said hey,we're having this issue with,
like, international students andperformance and you study
behavior.
Can you check it out and seewhat's going on?
And I did this program and Iquickly learned from, like in
classroom observation and someinterviews, that there was this
cultural disconnect between theinternational students coming in
(02:57):
and the faculty at Wayne StateUniversity.
So I created a training programfor the students and onboarding
, and then I also created atraining program for the faculty
on cultural adaptability.
It was really successful.
All of a sudden, like, thestudents start performing and a
faculty member comes up to me,pats me on the back and says,
hey, you're pretty good at this,you should do this for a living
.
That's how I got into trade.
(03:19):
That is one I was like maybe Iwill.
Yeah, I understand, but but itdid.
It felt so natural and justfelt like the right space to be
in, and I love helping peopleand I love solving challenges.
So let's talk about a couple ofthings, and I want to go back to
(03:39):
the study of music, the studyof language and everything else,
because you do some differenttrainings that incorporate a lot
of that knowledge and a lot ofthat experience that you have.
But before we go there, I wantto dig in just a little bit in
your bio, in your book title andin even a number of the things
that I heard you say.
You reference human and itseems to me that you're a really
(04:03):
strong people person and youknow, in making that connection
and making that you know, be youknow even from the title of
your book, be Human, lead Human.
Let's dig into that.
I'd like to get to know you alittle bit more from that
perspective, and I'm sure theaudience would too.
Where does this interest orwhere does this sort of like
(04:24):
direction come from for you?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (04:28):
You mean like from a perspective of like.
Why is the human element keepcoming up to the forefront for
me?
Jay Johnson (04:34):
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (04:35):
Yeah.
So I think there's a couplereasons.
I think one is you know how Igrew up and the things that were
prioritized in my first familyand the values that were there.
I think that has a big part todo with that.
I also think that as I wentthrough my education, you know,
(04:57):
there were certain things thatwould elevate that human element
and there were other thingsthat would sort of, you know,
decrease it, and I saw thathappen in the workplace as well.
It was almost like when I wentinto the business world I had to
leave part of myself at thedoor because it wasn't safe to
(05:18):
show the other talents andskills and capabilities that I
was bringing, because I feltvery vulnerable and it didn't
feel like it was a place where Icould share those things.
Yet those were the things thatreally helped me stand out and
be that outstanding performer,you know, because I had all
those different, unique skillsand abilities that most people
around me didn't have, and so Ithought a little bit differently
(05:41):
and it helped me change myperformance and I saw that that
wasn't the case, maybe, forpeople around me.
So when I would get feedbacklike, oh, you've just got to
have a thicker skin or, oh, youknow, um, you just need to get
out of your own way.
Um, you know, I would get a lotof feedback like that.
(06:03):
Or, you know, the team has justbeen waiting for you to like
catch up with them, like whereare you, you know?
So I would get a lot offeedback that sort of didn't
jive with me feeling safe tobring my whole self to work, and
so a lot of the people that Icoach now, you know, I hear that
reflected in different waysLike I'm not, I don't feel safe
(06:24):
at work, physically orpsychologically.
I don't feel, um, like I can bemy emotional self, right, I
don't feel like I can display myemotions, because if I display
them in a certain way, that I'mlooked at as being aggressive,
if I display them in a differentway, that I'm looked at as
being weak, and that dynamiccontinues in all these different
(06:49):
areas.
And so, you know, one of thethings that I hear most often
from the leaders that I coach isthat I have to be perfect, I
have to know all of the answers,I have to have all of the
answers, and I think, when itcomes to being a leader, you
know who we are as a leader haseverything to do with who we are
(07:09):
as a human being.
So if we can't be our humanselves when we show up and lean
into that leadership identity,then we're doing a disservice to
ourselves and we're doing adisservice to the people around
us and we're doing a disserviceto the world at large.
Jay Johnson (07:24):
Yeah, and I want to draw some parallels there, you
know, with our audience.
I guarantee there's somebodyout there that's listening right
now.
Whether you're a coach, whetheryou're a trainer, whether
you're the HR person in yourorganization, I guarantee that
they have felt that same stingof like oh my gosh, I have to
know everything.
I got to be perfect, I got todo this, you know, and, and what
(07:44):
a, what a difficult, you knowwhat a difficult experience to
sort of regulate Right, and wewonder why imposter syndrome is
constantly, you know, rising indifferent places.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou speak to is the
psychological safety and and andimmediately I kind of came to,
uh, I kind of came to that of,uh, you know, Dr Edmondson's
(08:05):
work and even of Dr Brown's work, Brene Brown, and that sort of
our ability to show up asourselves.
There's nothing more powerfulthan that, both for the
organization but also for theindividual who is, you know,
seeking to be valued and seenand heard.
(08:25):
So you came from a number youknow, Ford Motor Company, which
is a strong engineering andtechnical company and I've even
seen, you know, in your, in yourbio you also have worked with,
like IBM and Google, and and anumber of Boeing and a number of
other ones, and in thoseenvironments, especially the
manufacturing space, I've seenthat sort of I don't want to
(08:49):
call it the macho behavior,almost the yeah, put your head
down, get your work done, Don'tcomplain, Don't do anything,
Don't have feelings until youcheck out at 5 pm.
We know how damaging that is toboth the individuals, to
cultural, psychological safety.
What are some of the thingsthat maybe you did to overcome
(09:10):
some of that challenge, Jennifer, Because I think that that
would be really insightful forpeople that maybe are
experiencing the same thing.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (09:18):
Yeah, you know that's a great question and
the answering that makes mereally vulnerable.
You know, one of the firstthings I would say is that I
didn't realize the damage thatit was doing to me, because I
would always feel like when Iwent into work, when I first
started my career in thebusiness world, when I went into
work, I would literally feellike, okay, I'm getting dressed
(09:39):
and I am literally putting on myarmor, I'm putting on my suit,
because at the time I worked atEDS and so we had to wear
business professional dress,right, so men's hair could not
be below their collar, shoes hadto be shined, women had to wear
pantyhose.
I mean, it was a very you know,very hierarchical, very
militaristic kind of culture atthe time, and so to help protect
(10:03):
myself psychologically, I wouldthink, okay, I'm putting on my
suit, right, this is my armor,this is going to protect me
today, and I'd walk in the door.
Now I knew that when I wasthere, I got my first job there
because I spoke French, and so Iwas working with French
Canadian dealers and sorry, Ishould say automotive, french
(10:23):
Canadian automotive dealers andhelping them diagnose their
vehicles through the servicestalls that were in the
technician and the dealerships.
So, even though I wasn'tphysically on site with the
dealers, it was just somethingthat allowed me to change my
mindset of okay, this is theidentity I'm going to have here
(10:47):
at work.
This is me.
I get to bring in this part ofme, the foreign language part,
that loves that and interactingwith people and getting to know
them and learning who they areand learn their stories and then
help support them in solvingtheir problems.
And, at the same time, what Iwas evaluated on was how quickly
I was solving their problem onthe phone.
And so the time it would takeme to build the relationship
(11:10):
with that client or the customerand help them solve their
problem, and why I was so goodat what I did was exactly why I
was being evaluated negativelybecause I was taking too long in
building the relationship.
I wasn't approaching it from aan American business style of,
oh, let's just solve yourproblem long in building the
relationship.
I wasn't approaching it from anAmerican business style of oh,
let's just solve your problemand get off the phone.
That's not how it works in alot of other parts of the world.
(11:35):
And so there were these elementsthat always kept popping up and
reminding me that, even thoughI'm trying to be human and I'm
trying to connect with peopleand I'm trying to be human and
I'm trying to connect withpeople and I'm trying to build
those relationships, I wasconstantly getting messaging
that my KPIs were off.
So that was one of the waysthat I would try to counteract
that right.
I would try to spend more timeon the relationship building,
(11:58):
even though I was gettingknocked out on that from a
performance perspective.
Another way that I would that Iwould build into my work day to
help me, like, get grounded wasI always love being outside.
I love being outdoors.
I love being in nature we werejust talking about.
You know the fact that you liveon this beautiful lake and you
know how much I miss the treesand the freshwater lakes in
(12:20):
Michigan, and so I would alwaystry to just get outside on my
lunch hour and go for some kindof walk in nature, whatever I
could find around the businessbuilding.
It's so powerful it's sopowerful and it would just help
me shift Right and it wouldremind me and ground me and
center me that this is still me,like I am still here, like my
whole being is still here, right, and that psychologically,
(12:42):
would help me.
And then I think the thirdthing that helped me was just
really understanding, like, howhard it was for me to try to be
two different people, right,that I'd have to be this
identity in this person at work,that I couldn't be my whole
self and I had to leave, youknow, part of that self outside
the door.
And that emotional labor oftrying to do that after a
(13:05):
certain point it just got to betoo much for me and so I decided
to look for a job in adifferent place where I could
bring, bring more of myself towork and that my different,
unique background wasn't viewedas maybe it was viewed as more
of a positive in that way.
Jay Johnson (13:22):
You know and thank you for thank you.
You for sharing that because Ithink it's so important for
people to hear it and I knowthat you know tapping into that
vulnerability.
I really appreciate you andhaving the courage to kind of
talk about some of those thingsbecause I don't think that
they're talked about enough.
You know, we know from theresearch in psychological
(13:42):
literature, let alone theneuroscientific literature,
about the impact, the impact onour brain it has when we have to
compartmentalize aspects of ouridentity or essentially shelter
them or hide them or suppressthem, and what that actually
does to our physical andemotional and even mental well
being.
And we know that it's, we knowthat it's devastating.
(14:03):
And yet this, these, thesepractices, in many cases still
exist in a number of differentworkplaces.
So kudos to you for being ableto navigate that, being able to
find that path.
So your book title is Be Human,lead Human, if you could.
What does it mean to lead human?
If you can help our audiencemaybe understand what are some
of the concepts of leading human.
(14:24):
So I are some of the conceptsof leading human.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (14:26):
So I think one of the concepts of leading
human first and foremost isbelieving that it's people that
create the value in theorganization.
So, in contrast to maybe theolder old school thinking that
it's products and services thatcreate value, leading human a
principle of that is that youbelieve that people create value
(14:48):
.
So if you don't have the people, you can't create the products,
you can't create the services,you can't create the strategy.
So starting with that is yourcore and then it goes out from
there.
So a second principle is whenyou lead human, you believe that
an organization is a placewhere people come to grow and
evolve, as well as they come towork and deliver output.
Jay Johnson (15:09):
I like that.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (15:10):
Yes, and that's in contrast to the old
school thinking, where peoplejust came to work, to work,
that's all they did and thenthey went home right, because
there were no other dimensionsto the person.
Jay Johnson (15:21):
It's a much more holistic way to actually look at
, because we spend a lot of ourlife and we know that we have
limited number of breaths thatwe get to take.
We spend a lot of those at workor in work, and to be able to
yeah, that's super powerful.
I really like that framing.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (15:36):
Yes, so that's the second one.
There's 10 of them, but thoseare the first two.
So when I talk about leadinghuman, it is a way to think
about and practice leadershipthat diverges the old school
command and control model andputs you into a place of being
more of a coach and facilitator,because the role of a leader is
(15:57):
actually evolving.
To be that coach andfacilitator and help people
understand how AI is impactingthem, how it impacts their role,
sort of be that translator forthem to see how can they use AI
to help them perform at theirbest and use more of their human
skills.
Right, what makes us human?
Ai is fantastic because it'sgoing to take all of that
(16:19):
administrabia, take over all ofthat, so we can spend our time
doing more of what makes ushuman that creativity, that
collaboration, that innovation,all of those things that you
know AI isn't necessarily goodat.
And I think there's a piecearound like that leading human,
which it's also this idea of.
(16:39):
You can make mistakes, right,it's okay to make a mistake.
It's okay to not knoweverything.
It's not realistic to knoweverything at this point,
because things are changing soquickly.
You can't know everything.
And so, as a leader, when youadopt that mindset and you
accept the fact that I can'tknow everything, and it's okay
(17:01):
to not know everything, and it'salso okay to make mistakes,
because we're human, we'refallible.
That gives everyone else aroundyou the permission and the role
they see, that role modelbehavior, to also be human
themselves.
So that's what I mean by leadhuman, be human, be human, lead
(17:22):
human.
Jay Johnson (17:23):
That makes a lot of sense.
You know, and it's interestingthat you talk about sort of the
shift for leaders.
You know, and a lot of and alot of what.
And help me understand, andmaybe you've seen this in your
space.
You know, when we look atsomething like the leadership
function and I'm not even justtalking about executive
leadership, I mean like firstlevel managers we see a lot of
(17:44):
people getting moved intoleadership positions, usually
because they were great atperforming, they did something
awesome.
They get bumped up and then theyrealize and then within like I
think it's a study that sayslike within 18 months they're
seen as underperforming.
And part of it is is thedifference in skill set, right
To manage a group of peopleversus being an individual
(18:06):
contributor obviously verydifferent.
If you're seeing this sort ofemerging trend of leaders
becoming more coaches, morefacilitators, those are
obviously very different skills,as our audience on this podcast
is going to know, because a lotof them are facilitators,
coaches, trainers.
Cast is going to know, becausea lot of them are facilitators,
coaches, trainers.
Have you seen two questionshere?
(18:27):
Have you seen either a littlebit of resistance from
leadership?
Do they see that as their sortof pathway to the future?
And then the second question ishow can we, as talent
development professionals,prepare leaders to essentially
do what we're good at usually,you know, coaching, training,
facilitating, etc.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (18:47):
Yeah.
So I think the first part ofthat question is really around
how leaders are thinking aboutthe role of a leader.
How do they identify that?
And if that identity isshifting and changing, then what
does it mean for them as aperson?
What does it mean for them as ahuman?
How is their identity shiftingand changing?
And what I'm finding with theclients I'm working with is that
(19:10):
they're not comfortable, likewe're not comfortable with
change.
For the most part, they want togo back to status quo.
They want to go back to whatthey know, and what they know is
command and control, becausethat's what they observed, it's
what they learned, it's whatthey mimicked, it's what they
role modeled, and there aren'tthat many other examples for
them to see that are divergent.
Jay Johnson (19:30):
Do you think it's also on some level and I've seen
this before in some and maybenot all, but some leaders, I
think, go back to that commandand control because it seems
easier, right, Like it's just,like.
No, just do what I say and thenI don't have to explain, I
don't have to justify, I don'thave to give information, I
(19:52):
don't have to go through therigmarole of collaboration, it's
just get it done.
And I, going back to what wewere talking about earlier, I
think there are someorganizations that still reward
that kind of behavior.
But you know, from that, fromthat perspective, is that sort
of the resistance, you know, thepiece to the resistance of no,
I just want to get this donebecause I can do it fast, as
opposed to putting the effort inof collaborating, communicating
(20:14):
, connecting, or is it somethingelse?
That's sort of creating thatresistance?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (20:19):
I think there's a couple of things that
create that resistance.
I think, first and foremost,our performance systems and
organizations are broken.
So when we look at how weevaluate and reward people for
their performance, we typicallyask them right now, these days,
to collaborate in teams, but weevaluate them individually.
So that's a disconnect rightthere, number one.
So there is no incentive inmost organizations for people to
(20:43):
operate differently, honestly,for lack of a better term.
Jay Johnson (20:47):
We need the old report card that says does not
play well in the sand withothers.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (20:53):
Exactly exactly Like if you look at
anybody's report card these days.
Is there anything on thereabout how well do you coach, how
well do you facilitate?
How well do you help yourpeople collaborate?
How well do you solve problemsas a team?
Like there's nothing on there.
It's typically all individual.
So that's the first thing.
I think the second thing isaround.
(21:14):
It's scary to do something newand when you don't have the
tools in your toolbox to eventry something new and you don't
have any resources around you tohelp guide you and advise you,
when you're try something newand you don't have any resources
around you to help guide youand advise you when you're
trying something new, it's ascary place and organizations
will eject outliers.
So if you're in a system andyou're operating differently
(21:37):
from what that system knows is astatus quo or the default,
you're going to get out.
You're going to get.
You're going to get ejectedfrom the system.
That's number two, and I thinknumber three is there is still a
mindset of well, this is howwe've always done it.
Jay Johnson (21:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (21:57):
So this is how we've always done it and it
seems to be working, then whywould we change?
So I think it's a combinationof, like the external drivers,
the internal motivators and thismindset shift that needs to
take place.
Jay Johnson (22:14):
And that makes a lot of sense, right, like when
we think about change and itsimpact on us.
Human beings do not loveuncertainty, and ultimately,
it's usually some kind ofuncertainty that brings us back
to the status quo because of thecomfortability and because, hey
, I can predict this and ourancient, ancient brain is going
if I can predict it, I cansurvive it.
(22:35):
If I can't predict it, well,who knows?
It's all up in the air, so Ican see that being a heavy piece
of resistance.
So how do we get leaders tosort of take this role of
getting, hey, you know what?
This is the future, this isgoing to help you, this is going
to help your culture, this isgoing to take us forward Because
, again, some of our audience isin that sort of coaching space
(22:56):
of working with these leaders.
How do we get them to buy intothis and to be good at it?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (23:01):
Right?
So I'm going to tell you a verybrief story that I tell in the
book, and it's it has as itslever for motivating people into
why they should do this as aquantitative outcome.
Right, because what mostorganizations are looking at is
the bottom line.
For motivating people into whythey should do this as a
quantitative outcome right,because what most organizations
are looking at is the bottomline.
So if it doesn't impact thebottom line, they're not
interested.
And most organizations arestill operating that way, right?
(23:24):
So when I was at Ford, I wasworking in a certain department
and the economy was pretty badat the time and our department
decided that they would have aappreciation day for employees
to try to boost morale and boostengagement.
And so they bought some ofthese paper plates and they put
them on tables in the main floor, in the main hallway, and they
(23:46):
invited everyone to come downand fill out a paper plate.
And they wanted it to be aplate of appreciation.
So they wanted you to write anote to someone else about what
you appreciated about them andgive it to them.
I'm like great, I think this isfantastic.
So I go down there and I'mthinking about who am I going to
write my plate to, and at thetime Ford had just celebrated
its 100th anniversary and BillFord had stepped down from the
(24:11):
CEO role and he had brought inAlan Mulally to run the company.
And Alan had his hands fullbecause things were not doing so
well.
The company had just lost $17billion and we were basically
trying to stay afloat.
So I thought, you know, I'mgoing to write my plate to Alan
because he could probably use ahug right now.
He's got a pretty tough jobgoing on and he probably doesn't
(24:33):
have, you know, very manypeople that he can talk to about
it, because it's pretty lonelyup at that top of the house.
So I wrote my plate to him andI said you know, dear alan, you
know, thank you for being thischange that we needed to see.
You know to so we can surviveanother hundred years.
So I decorated this plate withsome superman stickers and I
stuck it in an inner officeenvelope and I, like, know, use
that twine to make the littlefigure.
(24:54):
And then I stuck theconfidential sticker over that
and I addressed it to World TechOrders and, you know, sent it
off and so and I didn't think ofanything else on it.
So a couple of weeks later, Iget this voice message and
actually no.
So I get sorry.
I get this voice message andit's like my boss's boss's boss
(25:16):
asking me to come down to theiroffice.
And I'm like, oh boy, you know,because at this time, like bad
right, the economy is really badand everyone has boxes under
their desk because they don'tknow if they're going to be let
go that day.
So I get this message and I'mlike, oh, this isn't really what
I wanted to hear.
So I like, you know, I havethis pit in my stomach, you know
.
So I'm walking down to thisboss's office and, um, there,
(25:38):
when I get there, there's around table in the middle of the
room.
In the middle of the tablethere was an inner office
envelope and there's like threeor four leaders standing around
the table.
And, jay, I looked at thatoffice envelope and I knew
exactly what it was and it wasopen.
And one of the leaders says youknow, we, um, you know, we
(26:00):
understand this is from you.
And I'm like, yes, it is.
And they're like we can't getthis to Alan.
I said, well, what do you mean?
You can't get it to Alan?
Like, did interoffice, did welet the interoffice mail people
go, like I know things are tough, but like you know what, why
not?
And they said, well, we just,you know, we don't think it's
appropriate.
So we're going to ask you totake it back.
(26:20):
And I was not happy about that,to say the least.
Yeah, and so I said, okay, well, on one hand I didn't lose my
job, so I guess that's good, buton the other hand, like they're
basically telling me that myvoice doesn't matter, and I'm
really not happy about that.
So I I I said nothing else.
(26:43):
I took it back.
I walked out of their office.
I walked straight out to my car.
I got in my car and went overto world headquarters, went up
to the 12th floor.
Alan wasn't in, so I asked hisadmin if she could please give
him this envelope when he gotback and she said, sure, no
problem.
And so I walked.
But, you know, I went back downthe 12 stairs, walked back to
my car and went back to my desk.
Jay Johnson (27:00):
Good for you.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (27:02):
Yeah.
And so a couple weeks later,you know, I'm like I get this
voicemail on my phone and it'sactually Alan and he's telling
me how much this plate ofappreciation meant to him.
And then he has a tear in hiseye because it just moved him so
much.
And I am shocked because here'sthis guy who's trying to save
the company.
I'm this people leader far downthe ladder that he has never
(27:24):
even met, and yet he takes thetime to thank me for doing
something that I did for him.
This was amazing to me.
This is 16 years that I've beenworking at this point in
business and this is the firsttime that I saw a leader who
acted this way.
Jay Johnson (27:42):
It's such a powerful story.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (27:44):
I couldn't believe it.
And so, and it continues, andso a couple of weeks later, I
get an interoffice envelope inthe mail and it's stuffed full
of stuff.
And so I opened it up andthere's all this sports swag in
it.
And, and so I opened it up andthere's all this Ford swag in it
.
And the best part about it isthat there's this letter,
handwritten letter, in thisenvelope and it says, dear
Jennifer, and it has a heartaround the Jennifer.
And it says, you know justwhatever his message was.
(28:06):
And then it said you know, alan, and I just I sat back in my
chair and I just started cryingbecause this was the first time
that, like, I felt seen and Ifelt that I mattered in an
organization, and it was aleader like Alan who took the
time to make me feel that way.
(28:29):
And I just really wanted tounderstand why are there not
more leaders like this?
Why do we not have more leadersthat take a couple seconds out
of their day or a couple minutesout of their day to do these
simple gestures that help peoplefeel that they matter and that
what they do makes a difference,and that it wasn't just the
output that I could deliver forFord Motor Company.
(28:50):
That mattered it was that I wasa human being who had all these
different facets to me, and hetook the time to recognize that
and see that, and that was thecatalyst for me to go back and
finish my MBA.
It was the catalyst for me togo back and do my PhD and study
what makes outstanding leadersdifferentiated from average
(29:11):
leaders, and it was the catalystfor me to write this book and
share everything that I learnedabout how can leaders rethink
what they think about leadershipand what that looks like.
And so when you look at Alan'stenure at Ford Motor Company, at
the end of his tenure the stockprice had gone up 1,837%.
(29:31):
His employee engagement rateshad gone from 40% to 93%.
Now it takes very little timeto do what he did, and yet he
managed to change the entireculture at Ford Motor Company by
just simply being more humanand leading human, and he got
(29:52):
those kinds of top and bottomline results.
So I would ask all of the HRpeople that's listening to this
and all of the coaches andfacilitators if you can get
those kinds of results, whywould you not want to follow a
leadership approach like thisthat optimizes performance?
And if they can do it at FordMotor Company in an organization
(30:13):
that was so hierarchical and sotop down from a leadership
style, it should be possible inmany other organizations.
Jay Johnson (30:23):
There's so much power in what you just said.
And I'm thinking about itbecause when I first started
doing work with Ford, it was2003.
And I actually had theopportunity to meet with Alan
multiple times and every singletime I'm like I'm standing here
in front of the CEO and he knowsmy name, and he says my name
(30:46):
and he asks me what my thoughtwas when we were doing some
consulting projects through theuniversity inside of there, and
he's like well, what, what doyou think, jay?
And I'm like I just got askedby the CEO, my opinion I am, you
know, this is in God, this isliterally I'm, I'm, I'm a 20
something year old and I'm likewhy are you even asking me the
like I was in awe and the, theentire, the entire
(31:10):
implementation of the one Fordduring that time, and to your
point, the a skip level meeting,going just one above your boss
at that point in time, was ahell worthy trespass, you know.
So I I can imagine like thelooks on your boss's boss's boss
face when, when it's like whatdo you?
This is like the ultimate skip,right.
(31:33):
I am so impressed that you hadthe, the, the strength, the
courage, the tenacity to say no,I'm going to drive this down,
I'm going to drop it off andeverything and I don't.
I wouldn't claim to know himwell or anything like that, but
anytime that I had interactedwith him I would have bet bottom
dollar that he would haveappreciated that gesture.
Just so to hear you confirmthat really honestly warms my
(31:55):
heart.
But yeah, what an incrediblestory, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (32:00):
Yeah, yeah.
And so you know I share thatstory.
You know, not to toot my ownhorn, but to show that like this
is not soft and fluffy.
This is not woo-woo, this isnot kumbaya.
This is an actual approach toleadership that changes
performance dramatically.
And in this era where thingsare so competitive right, we're
(32:23):
in this world and ai is justcoming the differentiator is how
we can help people interactwith one another, collaborate
with one another, work,collaborate with one another,
work together effectively anddeliver that outstanding
performance.
And it doesn't take a lot oftime, it doesn't take a lot of
extras, it just takes having thework and shifting the mindset
(32:47):
that we're going to do thistogether.
And here's how we're going tooperate together and here's how
we're going to interact together.
And, as you know, from that oneforward, we had our behaviors
on that card.
Jay Johnson (32:58):
On the card.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (32:59):
Exactly what was expected, and if you didn't
adhere to that, then everyoneelse in the room would hold you
accountable to that.
Jay Johnson (33:08):
And correct your behavior.
A self-correcting culture whichis so powerful.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (33:13):
Exactly self-correcting culture which is
so powerful, exactly so.
I invite people listening Ifthere is any any interest in
driving performance that exceedstoday's performance to take a
look at this book.
Take a look at Alan's story.
It's, it's it's in manydifferent places, right, but I
talk about it in the book aswell and learn.
(33:35):
You know how can you shift theculture.
Because that's what Alan did heshifted the culture, he shifted
the behaviors and hedemonstrated what it looks like
to be a leader who coaches andfacilitates to deliver that
performance.
Jay Johnson (33:49):
It's the difference between going to work and
executing tasks and going towork and elevating moments right
, like bringing people anexperience, and if you're doing
that for the people at work, itgenerally translates to your
customers, it generallytranslates to your suppliers.
It's a ripple effect, right?
And I want to go back.
You said something a littleways back about how you were
(34:12):
performing and how it didn'tmatch up with the KPIs, and I
have experienced the same thingin working with physicians and
I've gotten to work with somereally really high level, high
level healthcare organizationseverybody from Johns Hopkins to
University of Michigan HealthSystems and it's always
fascinating to me.
So one of my backgrounds or oneof my degrees is in health
(34:34):
communication and I studied theconcept of narrative medicine.
And what they did was theyevaluated the difference between
a doctor, a physician, a nurseor whomever who spent more time
on average with their patientsthan the others.
Well, the KPIs is you got tomake sure that you're touching
(34:54):
everybody or that you're gettingenough people through the door,
and so on and so forth.
And when they shifted the ideaof okay is the KPI how many
people you see per day?
Or the health outcomes of thepeople that you see each day,
bar none, those that took thetime to build the relationship,
the connection, to betterunderstand, not only were they
(35:15):
getting more information, theywere getting the information
faster.
And they were.
You know, people were opening upquicker and they were giving,
so they were literally matchingpace with the colleagues.
That was just like what's wrong, your elbow hurts.
Take two of these.
Call me in the morning Next,and you, they were literally
matching pace with that, maybejust a little bit slower, but
(35:35):
not even significantly orstatistically significantly, but
their health outcomes wereleagues away from their patients
to somebody else's.
So it's just, it's so importantand I love that you're bringing
that to this space.
You know, building thoseconnections, creating those
connections and really workingto focus on creating a culture
(36:00):
and environment where people arefelt and seen.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (36:03):
Yeah, and you know the thing, the thing that
I notice so often is that wehave so much focus in
organizations on building thosetechnical skills right, the
functional expertise, and that'stable stakes.
We need that.
That has to be there.
But what often gets omitted ornot even addressed is these
human and relational skills thatmake all the difference in
(36:25):
combination with those technicalskills.
You know, I've created amasterclass that offers you know
, coaches and organizations andfacilitators the opportunity to
help them elevate those skillsright.
We need that upskilling todayto help people gain both the
technical expertise and thehuman and relational pieces so
(36:45):
they can be so effective in thatway.
Jay Johnson (36:50):
I want to dig, you know, and I want to be mindful
of our time here.
But I do want to dig intosomething else.
You know you had mentionedearlier on um, you know an
interest in the arts and inmusic and you know sort of like
the the beautiful culturalthings of life and you've
brought some of that into yourwork and into your space.
You incorporate it into yourcoaching, your training, um,
(37:11):
talk to me, what does that looklike for you and how do you
bring those sort of unique?
Because not everybody brings.
You know, everybody has adifferent set of interests or
backgrounds or qualities andsometimes we don't feel
comfortable bringing that into aspace.
You know, like I don't bring myhockey, you know background
into a space.
Sometimes that could maybe Italk about it.
(37:31):
I'll tell a few stories.
But, you know, help usunderstand.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (37:34):
You look like Wayne Gretzky a little bit.
Jay Johnson (37:37):
That's super kind.
I certainly didn't play likehim.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (37:42):
I'm a big Wayne Gretzky fan, by the way.
Jay Johnson (37:44):
Me too, me too.
So, how do you, how do youincorporate that to bring that
sort of piece of you into thespace, and how would you advise
maybe some of our people thathave some unique characteristics
or some unique aspects of theiridentity?
How would you encourage them tobring theirs out to that space
as well?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (38:05):
So I think, first and foremost, you want to
be comfortable with bringingthat out, because it's sharing a
very personal side of you thatotherwise you wouldn't show
people.
Yeah, so that has to be therefirst and foremost.
And it took a while for me to um, you know, for I think you're
talking about the dance example,right?
So I I offer a course called um, you know, leadership through
(38:25):
ballroom dance, and it's fororganizations and individuals
who are very forward in theirthinking.
Um, because it requires a verydifferent mindset to walk into a
dance studio and say thatyou're going to dance with
someone and learn leadershipthat way.
So I love to dance.
I've actually been dancingsince I was three years old.
(38:46):
I started out in ballet.
My mom and dad put me in balletclasses and then I did tap and
jazz and toe and all of thosethings, and then, as an adult, I
discovered ballroom dance, andso it was just a way for me to
continue connecting with my body, with my brain, Because so
often in the work that I do it'sjust a brain kind of thing, but
(39:08):
your brain is not your bodytaxi.
So I found a way to combine thetwo and do something in doing
what I love and helping peoplethink a little bit differently
about leadership.
Because, you know, do you wantto go to a class where you're
going to sit there and, like,have a seminar on, like you know
, the different theories ofleadership, or do you actually
want to go listen to some greatmusic and, like, dance around a
(39:30):
store and learn leadership thatway?
So it's just a different way tothink about it.
Um, that is actually how Idecided to integrate it, and I
don't know of many people who dothat, and so it's just a unique
differentiator for me.
And you know, I I get somepeople who are interested in
that every once in a while and,um, you know, it's really fun, I
love.
That's one of the favoriteclasses that I teach, actually.
Jay Johnson (39:57):
I absolutely love that.
So I've just startedincorporating one of like my
kind of backgrounds, which Ididn't really talk about out
there.
I like to do survival trips.
So you know we talked a littlebit about the outdoors.
I will go into the woods fivedays, seven days, 10 days, no
food, no water, and just survive.
It's not pretty, it's not clean,it's not always, you know,
sometimes it's successful.
Sometimes it's not pretty, it'snot clean, it's not always, you
know it's, sometimes it'ssuccessful, sometimes it's not
(40:17):
successful.
But I have always found thatthat really helps me build my
resilience, my grit, my criticalthinking, my problem solving.
And just this past year was thefirst time that I had a couple
of people that I had done someconsulting for and they said can
we do that with you?
Can you teach us?
So it wasn't just aboutteaching the survival skills or
(40:39):
the nature, you know,understanding nature but it's
also about sort of like gettinginto the right headspace,
getting into the right mentality, being able to not panic when
something doesn't go your way orwhen maybe you haven't had any
food for three days, and it'sjust like okay.
I'm starting to get real hungrynow.
So I I just started to bringthat into this.
I've been doing this for adecade and this is the first
(41:01):
time this year that I actuallybrought a little piece of that
out and and shared it, and itwas incredible.
It was such an incredibleexperience.
So, how do how do you?
And and I love that you broughtthat up but, like, be
comfortable with it, because, ifyou know, if it is something,
because I didn't ever want totell somebody, yeah, I go into
the woods because and live therefor you know, 10 days and
they're going to probably thinklike, okay, are you a hermit
(41:23):
crab?
Like what are you doing?
You know, what are you doingwith your like health?
What are you eating?
Well, frogs, worms, whatever Ican find.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (41:39):
You know, I've I've trained at NASA and I
also go and live off of bugs forfive days.
Jay Johnson (41:40):
Right Like there's a disconnect.
It feels like there's adisconnect.
Hardcore but you know, so, likeit was always something that I
kind of guarded, and for me itwas because I didn't, oh, no,
yeah.
So, jennifer, the question thatI have is it took me a long time
(42:01):
to be comfortable in being ableto share that out and, sort of
like, bring that part of myidentity forward.
Do you have any recommendationsor thoughts of how can we be
more comfortable taking thatfirst chance or maybe leaning
into being vulnerable in a spacethat we're not 100% certain of?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (42:25):
Yeah.
So I think it's a greatquestion and I think one of the
things that first comes to mindfor me is there needs to be that
level of trust right.
There needs to be that trustbetween you and the client, or
you and the people that aregoing to be receiving this
training that you know for somemay be really out of the box and
it may be really out of theircomfort zone.
So, having that safe space,first of all, where you know you
(42:45):
can bring this and it won't berejected right, because we're
all afraid of rejection and thatit will be received with an
open mindset, and that there'sthat trust there that you're
bringing them something that youbelieve will be beneficial for
them and help them get to wherethey want to be.
Jay Johnson (43:06):
You know, I love that because it's as true in
that space as it is in any otherspace.
At that point in time, rightLike, we have to have that trust
.
We have to have that open sortof like agreement with each
other, like, hey, I'm going togive a little of me, you're
going to give a little bit ofyou, and we're going to meet and
something beautiful is going tooccur.
(43:27):
Now I happened, and in mystudies of neuroscience it's
really interesting.
I have actually studied acouple of the different articles
that had come out about theimpact of dance on the human
brain and I thought it wasfascinating.
It's actually a really healthypractice for us to do Like if
(43:49):
there's something with oxytocinthat comes in from the social
bonding aspect of it, somethingfrom the dopaminergic drive that
comes from, like, the movementand everything else.
But a lot of people are afraidto dance.
How do you get somebody?
And I think this hasapplicability in a lot of spaces
.
When we're taught something orwhen we're engaging in some form
(44:11):
of training, sometimes we havesome resistance to it.
We're going to look silly, thisisn't going to work, and our
brain comes into place andstarts putting these barriers up
.
How do you get people to maybeovercome some of those barriers
in a really fun way, like whenwe're teaching through dance?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (44:27):
Yeah, so you know, one of the first things I
like to tell is you know thestory of, you know, my husband,
like he always likes to say,like he has two left feet.
Well, he started dance lessonsand now he's realized he does
have a right foot and a leftfoot.
He's fortunate enough to haveboth of his feet, and so I share
that, because it takes somecourage and vulnerability for
(44:49):
someone to go into a space wherethey don't know anything.
They're very uncomfortable,everything is unfamiliar and yet
everything is so new andexciting and there's something
to be learned there.
And so having that beginner'smindset, first and foremost, I
think, is a way to help peopleget over that discomfort that,
(45:09):
hey, you know what.
You're not going to be the bestdancer in the world when you set
out on the floor this veryfirst time, and that's okay.
We're not expecting that, right, and you shouldn't be expecting
that of yourself either.
How can you expect to beperfect at this?
You know, because that's whatwe all want to be right.
(45:31):
We all want to be great andperfect at it when you've never
done it before.
That's not realistic.
So, taking away some of thosehelping people, take away some
of the expectations that theyput on themselves and that
pressure that they put onthemselves, and just allow them
to be in that space where theycan discover and play and learn,
just like when they were kids.
No one expected you to beperfect at anything when you
were a kid.
You just got to be experiencingand living and being naturally
(45:54):
curious about things and thewhole world just opened up to
you in that way because youdidn't have any limits on
yourself.
So I see you know, dance in ina way as an opportunity for
people to step into thisdifferent version of themselves
that maybe they don't even knowexisted.
Jay Johnson (46:13):
I love that.
So I I've been listening to DrPaul Conti, who's famous
psychologist, exceptional atwhat he does, and he talks about
that.
He's just, like you know, sooften, so often we criticize
ourselves.
But if we were to think aboutit and, like you know, talking
about it from the frame of shameand guilt and affect, et cetera
(46:35):
, if we were to think about likethat 12 year old version of us,
or even that six year oldversion of us that's just
starting to learn how to dance,are we going to be like you suck
, you're terrible, you're awful,and you know.
But we do that to ourselves asadults.
We just we, we expect like ohmy gosh, I'm shameful because
how bad I am at this.
(46:55):
But you know, give, giving alittle grace, being a little
kind, recognizing this is a big,beautiful world full of big
beautiful experiences, and toget to those experiences, we
just got to take that first stepand maybe be a little kind to
ourselves.
So what I hear you saying,jennifer, is there's hope for me
.
You know a former hockey player, former mixed martial artist
(47:18):
that also probably has a littlebit of two left feet on a dance
floor.
There's hope for me, then.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (47:23):
I think there is hope for everyone, and if
you already know how to iceskate because you play hockey,
you are going to be fine on thedance floor.
Just pretend that you don'thave the blades on your feet.
Jay Johnson (47:33):
So maybe I'll give it a shot.
You know I really love thisbecause I think it's so
applicable in so many ways.
So, you know, from our audienceperspective, our ability to
bring our authentic self in issomething so important that we
can really leverage our ownpersonal, unique experiences to
(47:53):
deliver some kind of knowledgeor skill or something in a
unique and sort of well, I guessauthentic way.
And getting people on board isprobably very much the way that
we got on board to it when wefirst started out in that space.
So helping them navigate thatinternal voice, that shame, that
(48:16):
guilt, that fear, might just bewhat gets them to actually take
action from the training.
So, jennifer, as we wrap uphere, I want to ask you, you
know, if you were to get, if youwere to go back and give
yourself, give your, your, yourbeginning trainer self, a piece
of advice, what advice wouldthat be?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (48:50):
advice would that be?
Um, I would say that if I hadto go back to that person, I was
back.
Then.
I would say it's okay to nothave all the answers and it's
okay to tell people you don'tknow, but you'll find out.
Or is there somebody in theroom that could help me, because
I don't know everything andmaybe there's the collective
wisdom here that can help usfigure that out together.
(49:12):
I think that's the advice Iwould give myself, because back
then I was just my gosh.
I'm up there in front of allthese people.
They're seeing me as the expert.
I have to know everything, likeand, and that was just so
unrealistic and it placed somuch pressure on me and it made
it not fun in that way.
You know, I was doing thatbecause I love doing that, not
because I felt like, oh, I haveto know everything, and that was
(49:33):
an immense amount of pressureon me.
That was unrealistic.
So I think that's the advice Iwould give myself.
I think that's the advice.
Jay Johnson (49:40):
I would give myself .
I think that's incredibleadvice.
So thank you again for comingback to the Talent Force to
finish this conversation, and Ireally think that this is such a
powerful conversation for ouraudience and just all of the
tips and tactics that you'vebeen able to share, everything
from that vulnerability to beingthat authentic self, so
(50:01):
powerful.
So thank you, jennifer.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:03):
Oh, thank you so much for having me, jay.
I hope this was helpful foryour audience, and it's just
been a pleasure to talk with you.
I really enjoyed ourconversations.
Jay Johnson (50:12):
Now, if our audience wanted to get in touch
with you, where might they beable to contact you?
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:17):
Yeah, so if they want to learn more, they
can go to my website.
That's drjennifernashcom.
That's drjennifernashcom, andthey can also find me over on
LinkedIn.
Jay Johnson (50:28):
Awesome.
Well, we'll make sure thatthat's in the show notes and
again, thank you so much forbeing here with me.
Dr. Jennifer Nash (50:35):
Oh, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it and youknow, for any organizations that
might be listening, I do have aLeadership Through Ballroom
Dance workshop, so if they'relooking at something cutting
edge for 2025, I am happy totalk about that with them.
Jay Johnson (50:50):
That's incredible.
I'm going to be signing up forsomething here.
Thank you, jennifer, and thankyou, audience, for tuning into
this episode of the Talent Forge, where, together, we are
shaping the future of trainingand development.
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