What separates truly exceptional performers from the merely talented? According to mental performance coach Gary Chupik, it's not motivation, talent, or even discipline—it's self-leadership.
Drawing from his extensive work with professional athletes and high-performing executives, Chupik challenges conventional thinking about performance psychology. While most focus on fixing weaknesses, he advocates for a strength-based approach that identifies what's working well and replicates it. This shift in perspective—from the "training room" of mental health to the "gym" of mental performance—reveals hidden reservoirs of potential in even the most accomplished individuals.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today I have a special guest,gary Chupik.
Welcome to the show, gary.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So you know, when we hadconnected and I got to take a
little bit of look at yourbackground, I was so impressed
and I really felt like this isgoing to be a great conversation
(00:23):
.
And before we get into that,can you help us, help us
understand, gary?
How did you get into this spaceand you know really what's your
passion with talent developmentand people development.
Gary Chupik (00:35):
Yeah, so as a mental performance coach, it's
really interesting.
So a lot of people don'tunderstand the difference
between a sports psychologistand a mental performance coach.
A sports psychologist would besomeone who is a psychologist,
so they have the label and havethe licensure and then they add
a little performance stuff onthe end.
So 80 to 90% of their educationreally is psychology, which
(00:56):
really discovers maladaptivethoughts and behaviors in their
clients.
But a mental performance coachlooks at what's right with
people and then we try andreplicate that and share that
with others.
So it's, it's, it's I kind ofcall it all gas, no brakes.
And so a mental performancecoach, think of someone who,
let's say, you're walkingthrough the the which is a true
(01:17):
story, by the way but let's sayyou're walking through a
professional football franchiseand you're walking in the
hallways and you see thetraining room.
So I call that mental healthand mental wellness, but you
walk through the gym and that'swhat I call mental performance.
And so I think there's I thinka lot of people really get, you
know, an incomplete view ofmental performance and mental
health.
I think mental health is onlypart A, I think mental
(01:39):
performance is part B, and yougot to be able to get stronger.
So I think if we can helppeople get stronger, they can
avoid perhaps the training roomwith getting bruised up and
bandaged up and don't get mewrong, there's definitely a need
for that.
However, I think we sellourselves short and leave a lot
of performance on the table whenwe don't really get into the
gym and get stronger.
Jay Johnson (01:59):
Okay, so I love that distinction and I love that
background.
Now you've worked with a lot ofhigh performance athletes,
professionals, all over in anumber of different sports.
Talk to me what is the processfor mental performance training
and like what does that looklike?
Gary Chupik (02:15):
Well, I don't know about you, but you know I've
never really baked a chocolatecake before.
I've tried, maybe a couple oftimes, to do something that
resembled the chocolate cake,but it hasn't been successful.
But one thing I do know that ifyou're going to bake a
chocolate cake, that there's asequence to the ingredients,
mixing the ingredients, and Ithink in a lot of ways a lot of
(02:36):
people have all the rightingredients but they haven't
learned how to sequence themproperly to get an intended
outcome, and so we minimizesequence.
And it's one of the things thatchat GPT really is not
sufficient at.
You can get all the rightanswers, but if you don't
sequence it properly you're notgoing to get the intended result
.
So I think helping peopleunderstand that there is a
(02:57):
sequence to mental performanceand for me personally in the way
that I present my material, isthat the holy grail of all
mental performance is notmotivation, it's self-leadership
.
In other words, you don't haveto be motivated to lead yourself
well.
So if people depend onmotivation, it kind of wanes up
and down, and even for mesometimes it wanes up and down,
(03:18):
but if I'm disciplined enoughand I'm sort of leading myself
really well, motivation reallyisn't part of the equation.
I remember talking to adefensive tackle, starting
defensive tackle in the NFL, andI said how important is
motivation to you?
And he said, at my level it'snot.
And I think most professionalathletes would do that.
In fact, a couple of years agoI attended a mental performance
(03:42):
conference where they had justsort of outstanding speakers who
worked with the highestathletes in the world and we I
don't even know if the wordmotivation was ever, ever
uttered for like two straightdays.
Jay Johnson (03:55):
So it's actually Motivations I mean.
To that regard.
Motivation is unsustainable.
It's so expensive to the brain,like just the very act of
willpower, and motivation istaxing and a number of different
studies.
Everything from the legalsystem, like our decisions at
the end of the day or ourmotivations to do things at the
(04:15):
end of the day significantlydrop because of the energy that
it takes and the energy that weexpend.
So I love that you're bringingthat up.
Motivation is probably not.
But talk to me a little bit.
Dig deeper on, you know, digdeeper on the other side of that
.
So that leadership, thatself-leadership, what does that
look like?
Is that discipline?
Is that routine?
Is that habits?
Is that?
What is that?
Gary Chupik (04:37):
Yeah, that's an outstanding question.
I think for me it really stemsfrom an understanding of how I
build my own self-leadershipnumber one and then how I sort
of expand that to reach otherpeople groups.
So, for example, I havesomething that I teach called
the leadership pyramid, and thebottom of the pyramid is
self-leadership.
The next level is coupleleadership, and I don't mean
(04:57):
romantically, I just mean thatyou're able to coach or mentor
or be an example to somebodyelse, and if you can do that
well, then you can do groupleadership and if you do that
well you can do area ordepartment leadership and
finally you can doorganizational leadership.
But what it does is it sort ofgives a pathway for a lot of
people to figure out how topromote themselves.
(05:17):
And I don't mean like sociallypromote themselves, I just mean,
yeah, there's a lot ofopportunities.
If you live your life well andyou self-lead, then you're going
to get opportunities to lead inorganizations.
And the thing I think the secretsauce with this self-leadership
thing is that it never endsLike you have to continually
keep that blade sharp and assoon as you start compromising
(05:40):
your self-leadership, that'swhen organizations start to
crumble, and that's primarilybecause of the leadership of the
primary leader, like, forexample, here in Seattle.
It's Boeing.
I'm not afraid to say thatBoeing has terrible leadership,
who passes on responsibility forthings that go wrong, and so
when your leadership at the verytop doesn't go well, the entire
business suffers, and Boeing isa clear example of that.
(06:03):
Not to bash anybody, but Idon't mind being honest.
So yeah, no one's pluckingBoeing executives because of
their leadership.
You know they're taking Amazon.
They're plucking Amazon.
They're plucking Costco,they're plucking Expedia.
They're plucking all thesegreat companies here in the
Seattle area, but Boeing's notone of them.
But Boeing's not one of them.
Jay Johnson (06:22):
Well, it's interesting as soon as you said
that sort of triangle ofleadership I really thought of,
like Maslow's needs hierarchy,right, and that base level, that
structural level of we need tohave our physiological needs
before we move into the nextlevel of safety and then the
next level of belonging, etc.
So from that base level, thatself-leadership, I can see that
(06:43):
being the structure becausethat's going to influence how
you show up at every other levelof that triangle.
So I really like that.
So so, gary, when we'rethinking about self-leadership
and and let's use the world ofhigh performance athletes right
now, what are some of the bigthings that you look at as sort
(07:03):
of gaps?
Where do, where do some of theyou know?
Because, obviously in you'reworking with high performance
athletes and I want to thinkabout it this way they've gotten
to where they've gotten there.
Obviously, a lot of theirbehaviors, a lot of their
leadership has gotten them thisfar, and that can be raw talent,
that can be motivation, thatcan be willpower.
They've gotten to this space.
(07:26):
So, in their minds at least,the way that the brain works is
generally well.
If it's worked for me before, Iwant to do it again.
So now we're we're taking themto a new level, like you said,
hitting the gas and moving themeven beyond what they can
imagine.
How do we identify the gaps?
And then also, how do we coachto that brain going hey, this is
(07:47):
this is actually, this is nextlevel.
This is how you get to thatnext level.
Gary Chupik (07:53):
Yeah, it's a really great question because a lot of
players don't understand thepower of domain management.
So, you're right, they'll.
They'll reach the peak of theirphysical ability and they have
a lot of talent and they developtheir skill.
And there's something I callthe ideal athlete.
There's 12 different categoriesthere's probably more, but
those are probably the big onesand what we're looking for is
(08:14):
gaps.
And so actually, I created amental performance assessment
that I can share with yourlisteners later and give them a
discount code.
But I'm trying to find not justwhat you're good at and what
you're bad at, but I'm reallyfocused on the gaps.
And so let's say, you're 70%good at self-confidence.
Well, you have a 30% gap.
There's a lot of gain here tobe embraced, and so if you'll
(08:38):
just sort of focus on the gaps,you're going to be a lot better
off.
So I think a lot of the forprofessional athletes.
I think you know over are thedays where you could be just
excellent at one thing, but atrain wreck and all the other
things, all the differentdomains of your life, are really
important.
So, for example, when we see anathlete really struggling on
(08:58):
the surface of the or theplaying surface, we can sort of
take a guess that they'restruggling in all the different
domains of their life, orspecific domains of their life,
for example, their marriage.
There's no other relationshipin that athlete's life that is
going to promote or help theirperformance or hurt their
performance more than theirspouse, and so helping them
(09:19):
focus on the different domainsof their life is incredibly
important.
So I like to think of, likefinding these hidden reservoirs
of performance, and a marriagerelationship or significant
other relationship could be oneof those, those, those
reservoirs or treasures ofperformance.
So sometimes you got to gosearching for it.
Other times it's just themindset, like, for example, pete
(09:40):
Carroll, coach of the Seahawksand apparently now coach of the
Raiders.
He said to me one time thatGary, the best always want to
get better.
They don't stop and they'realways looking for a competitive
edge.
And we tend to think that youhave to be sick to want to get
better or this person needscoaching because they're not
doing very well.
Well, there's certainly timeswhere I can help an athlete
that's not doing very well.
(10:00):
I can help them.
But, man, is it ever fun totake someone who's just all gas
and like how do I be better, howdo I do this?
How do I do that?
One of my favorite stories toshare is about a guy who was a
businessman in Las Vegas and wewere sitting down our second
coaching session ever and wewere in his office and we were
(10:20):
about 10 minutes into a coachingsession and he said, hey, can
we just stop for a second andcan you leave my office please?
And I was.
I was like I don't know why,what's going on?
Like I didn't know if I saidanything to offend him or what.
So I went out glass wall, sitoutside in the lobby and about
10 or 15 minutes he waves me andafter he's on the phone and on
his computer and I walked backin and he says, gary, you just
(10:42):
made me $1.2 million.
And he said, at $100,000,you're a good deal.
And I was just like what Areyou kidding me?
Like what did you do?
And this guy was so interestedin inspired action it's not just
action, it's inspired action.
And so he took that inspiredaction in that moment and he was
(11:05):
like he couldn't wait for thesession to be over, he just
acted right away.
And those are the kind ofathletes you love to work with,
because, like even RussellWilson would talk to Trevor Mo
help.
Well, of course not.
Russell just wanted to staysharp, and so I think one of the
(11:26):
misconceptions of coaching isthat you have to be sick to, you
know, to want to, to get better, and it's just not the truth.
Jay Johnson (11:33):
And let me dig in on that, because there's and
this is what I have found in mycorporate executives CEO type
coaching and and even down theline, if I am assigned somebody
who's underperforming as theircoach.
So if an organization reachesout and says, hey, this person's
(11:53):
really underperforming, wethink they're better, we want
them to get better, et cetera,et cetera, et cetera.
Versus if that person is,either that person could be
underperforming or that personcould be high performance.
If they individually come to mebecause they want to get better
, that's a big, big difference.
(12:13):
So you know, I and I guaranteethe coaches or the trainers or
anybody else have experiencedthis where, hey, we need you to
go fix this problem, or hey,this.
Where, hey, we need you to gofix this problem, or hey, we
want you to go accelerate thisadvantage.
And we rarely, at least in thecorporate world, rarely get the
go accelerate this advantage.
(12:35):
So talk to me, gary, because yousaid you've done both sides,
you've helped the athletes thatare maybe underperforming or
you've been assigned.
Or somebody said, hey, you gotto go get coaching because
you're sucking right now, versusyou've worked with those
athletes that are like Gary, I'mat the top of my game, but the
top can get bigger.
How do you approach those twodifferent mediums?
(12:57):
Because it's it's in.
In my experience it'scompletely different.
It's a completely differentgame.
Gary Chupik (13:04):
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, the people who want toget better, you can just give
them crumbs and they'll justgobble them up and they will
like, magnify, and you know,there's an exponential sense of
their growth when they takesomething that they really like
and they just go for it, versussomeone maybe with a fixed
mindset, maybe someone who youknow, like you said, versus
someone maybe with a fixedmindset, maybe someone who you
(13:25):
know, like you said, sort of thecoaching is being forced on
them somehow.
That's, I think that's whereyour, my skill really comes
through is how do we motivatesomeone who's not motivated or
inspire someone who's notinspired, and and that's that's
quite a challenge.
And what I find is it's reallyinteresting.
And what I find is, you knowSimon Sinek.
He wrote a book called you knowStart With why, but I think
(13:48):
there's a step that he's missing.
And again, this is a PeteCarroll quote, so I can't claim
it as my own, but he said youknow, start with why, but finish
with who, or end with who, andsomehow we've got to be able to
touch the head and the heart.
So the head is your clarity,the heart is your conviction,
and so the people who are reallyinspired and already going for
(14:11):
it.
They've made the electricalconnection between their head
and their heart, but somehowthat underperforming employee or
athlete hasn't made theconnection between head and
heart, and I feel like that'sone of the areas that we can tap
into, is like there's notenough clarity for them, and so
feel like that's one of theareas that we can tap into, is
like there's not enough clarityfor them, and so, because
there's not enough clarity, theycan procrastinate, because
procrastination is not theproblem.
(14:32):
Procrastination is a symptom,symptom of the problem.
Agreed, so for me it's likeokay, well, so either they're
not clear about something orthey don't have enough
conviction about something, butoftentimes the who is their
conviction, like that's wheretheir passion is.
So, for example, I was workingwith a player in the NFL and he
was saying Gary, just make metwo tenths of a second faster.
(14:53):
Can you make me two tenths of asecond faster?
I've done all the kinetictraining I can do, but what
about my mind?
I haven't tapped into that yetand I said well, what would two
tenths of a second do for you?
Well, that would make give memore tackles and more sacks and
more hurries.
And what would that do for you?
Well, that would put me in thepro bowl.
And what would that do for you?
Well, that would, you know, getme my next big contract.
And I finally I said, well, whata little bit of a treasure hunt
(15:16):
for some people that maybe thatare underperforming.
It's like, well, how do I, howdo I tap into something that
actually sort of lights theirfire a little bit?
And and sometimes that's achallenge, and sometimes there
are people that are pretty stonecold about that and there are
(15:36):
other people who are who you cansort of reach and sort of crack
open that shell a little bitand you can find that.
So sometimes it's a matter ofyeah, I like to think of myself
as a cocoon cutter.
You know, like in Lord of theRings, when Samwise is looking
(15:57):
for Frodo and he finds him, andhe sort of opens that cocoon to
find out that Frodo, he's living, but he's not really alive, and
I think a lot of people areliving but they're not alive.
Jay Johnson (16:05):
Well, and I like what you said there because I
think about it in terms of, youknow, adding the who at the end
of why.
Because a lot of people, evenwhen you're developing, like, an
organizational mission, visionor whatever else, or
establishing organizationalpurpose, they'll talk about the
why but they don't talk aboutthe who and how it impacts not
only the individual that'sworking there, but the end user
(16:26):
or the person that's benefitingfrom the service or so on and so
forth, and that human factor,that humanization of it, can
really be motivating.
We do way more for other people, especially if we like those
other people, than sometimes wedo for ourselves.
You know, somebody else goes totheir doctor's appointment, but
make time for ourselves,absolutely yeah.
Gary Chupik (16:46):
Yeah, well, I got it.
I have a really powerful story.
That that just a really shortone.
I was going to work with thepresident of the Houston Texans
of the NFL and we had beentalking and his name is Jamie
Roots and Jamie, we've beentalking, so I do something
called the game plan for life,which is how to live a high
performance lifestyle, and Ihave a playbook for the mind.
(17:06):
You know, that is sort ofcommon sense, that's my mental
performance stuff.
But Jamie was going to take thehigh performance lifestyle
piece and so he was flying meout to Houston three months
before, two months before, onemonth before we were all we were
talking and we were connectingon voicemail and phone calls and
text messages.
And you know, then it was threeweeks, two weeks and one week,
(17:29):
and for some reason he wasn'treturning my text messages or
phone calls.
A week before we were going towork together, and so I kept on
trying to connect with him andeventually I called his
executive assistant and she saidyou didn't hear and I said no,
and and she had said that Jamiehad taken his own, and I said no
, and she had said that Jamiehad taken his own life.
And I thought to myself I mean,it really affected me.
(17:51):
I mean I do a business, justlike yourself, and we help
people become their very bestand whatever.
But sometimes this stuff is amatter of life and death.
And you would think, you know,you're CEO of the year, you're
the president of an NFLfranchise, you know there's
nowhere really higher to go, insome senses, in the sports world
(18:12):
, and you could have everything.
And I don't know all thereasons why he took his life,
but I did talk to the family alittle bit.
But in the end you just neverknow how someone's doing.
You never know.
And so I think when we talkabout coaching or we talk about
wellness or we talk about mentalhealth or mental performance,
this stuff really is life anddeath.
And until that hits you and Ireally deeply, until we realize
(18:35):
how serious it is that we do,man, maybe we kind of like view
this as not so serious, or maybethis is, you know, maybe this
is sort of an add-on, or maybethis is sort of just like
helping somebody tweak theirability.
No, no, no, some of this stuffis life and death and we need to
take it seriously every time.
Jay Johnson (18:53):
Well, thank you for sharing that story and that's
absolutely tragic, but it doesdemonstrate, you know, it
doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter whether youare perceived as successful or
perceived as a high profile,perceived as having a perfect
life or anything else like that.
We really don't always knowwhat's going on inside of
somebody else's brain, theirfeelings, their emotions, and
(19:14):
you know I love that the workthat you're doing is not the
holistic aspect.
That's something that I thinkis so important and it's
something that I want.
If you're listening to thispodcast and you're a trainer and
maybe you're a leadershiptrainer, maybe you're a
communications trainer, maybeyou are a conflict mediator,
whatever it is be thinking aboutthat sort of holistic strategy,
(19:36):
like it's not just aboutconflict in the workplace.
That person probably has someunderlying issues, challenges,
maybe burnout, maybe emotionaltraumas at home or whatever else
that's feeding it.
So I want to hear from you onthis, gary, because one of the
(19:56):
things that we've heard is theconcepts of work-life balance,
and then we hear it as work-lifeintegration, and then we hear
it as well there is no suchthing as work-life balance,
because you know, you can't justcompartmentalize every aspect
of the individual humanexperience into these little
neat boxes.
I'd love to hear your kind ofperspective on that, because I
do know that.
(20:17):
You know every third article istalking about how to create
work-life balance and work-lifehappiness, and so on and so
forth.
What are your thoughts on that?
Gary Chupik (20:27):
Yeah, that's actually a complicated question
to answer, in my view, becausethere's like one of the
distinctions that it makes methink of is like there are some
people who like to spend theeight hours of their day
investing in what's very, verymeaningful to them, and then in
the evenings, in their time away, that's when they feel like
they come alive and do some ofthe things that make them happy.
(20:49):
There are other people whodon't mind eight hours of the
day working in a factory andtying shoelaces I mean, they
don't mind the mundane and thenthey enjoy the evening.
Or it's the other way around,right?
They want to just feelpassionate about what they do
all day long and then in theevening, just kind of relax and
do nothing.
So it kind of depends on yourwiring a little bit, and so when
(21:11):
we talk about work-life balance, there are so many people all
over the map that that you knowthat's really important to them,
that work-life balance will.
Yeah, in some respects itdepends how you, what kind of a
person you are.
I, on the other hand, I like tofind meaning in my work during
the day, and so I don't, I don't, I don't do work-life balance
(21:32):
very well, like I just thinkit's all fun and it's all
enjoyable and and I so I don'tmind working until six or 7 PM
or waking up at 345 in themorning, like I usually do I
just really really enjoy that alot, you know, and so I don't
know.
I think the whole, the wholething is a little bit overrated
and blown out of proportion.
But I think tapping into howyou're wired and your identity
(21:55):
is far more important.
So if you really enjoy workinghard and of course we just know
that there are seasonsthroughout the year where we're
going to work hard, but I alwayssay what goes up must come down
it's like a ball in gravity.
If you're going to expend a lotof energy for a while, you're
going to have to figure out ways.
In sort of an oscillating kindof way, you're going to have to
figure out how to sort of comedown for that.
(22:15):
Even if you feel like you'repretty good, like you've got a
lot of energy, you still need tofind ways to replenish that
type of energy.
So so yeah, I just think it's adifficult question to answer
and it probably depends more onpeople's sense of identity and
what they do and what they getenergy from than just sort of a
blanket statement for everyone.
Jay Johnson (22:33):
Yeah, I love that.
You know, for me I'm veryfortunate because I'm in the
same boat.
I can work 16 hours a day andit doesn't feel like work.
I love what I'm doing becauseI'm either researching, learning
, interacting, looking atbehavior and all that fun stuff.
So for me it's just super easy.
But I think for me it has alwaysbeen.
(22:55):
I'm confident that I could makemoney anywhere.
I could go and work in acompany, I could go be a CEO
somewhere else.
But it has always been lessabout the money for me than it
is the enjoyable experience andtrying to find mastery.
So being self-aware in thatregard I think has helped.
So you know, when I think aboutlike work-life integration, my
life and my work is veryintegrated.
(23:17):
When I'm working, I'm happy.
When I'm off of work, I'm alsohappy.
So it's like you know.
So I'm very fortunate in that.
But I really like what you saidabout the wiring aspect,
because there are some peoplewho say, no, I don't love work,
but I go to work for five youknow my eight hours a day to get
the paycheck that affords methe opportunity to do X, y and Z
and if you're happy andsatisfied doing that, by all
(23:40):
means.
Gary Chupik (23:40):
but yeah, yeah, agreed, you know one of the
things that I need to circleback on is you were talking
about like, essentially likewhat is at the core, and I
talked about self leadership.
But if you take the nextconcentric circle, so if that's
at the center, if that's thebullseye, the next concentric
circle is developing thedisciplines and habits.
And a lot of people sort ofviscerally react to the word
(24:03):
habit, and it's either like youlove it or you don't, or even
the word discipline you love itor you don't.
But in those cases where peoplestruggle with that word, I just
like to use the word rhythms,like what are the rhythms that
always put you in the bestposition to succeed?
And if you can invest in thoserhythms and have those rhythms
in your life, then you'reprobably going to be in a much
(24:23):
better position to be able tosucceed.
Because in the sports world wesay, listen, you can throw the
perfect pitch and it get hit fora home run, right.
So you can never control anoutcome, but you can always put
yourself in the best position tosucceed.
And so what are the rhythms ordisciplines or habits that you
can invest in in your life thatputs you in the best position to
succeed, that you can invest inin your life.
That puts you in the bestposition to succeed.
(24:44):
And I think if you just investin those you can have a sort of
an optimistic view of life.
I'm not much into positivity.
I have sort of a little bit ofan ax to grind with positivity.
But optimism is a far betterresponse than positivity and
optimism.
And for this reason optimismalways requires a reason for you
to be optimistic.
(25:05):
Positivity you don't need areason to be positive, you can
just sort of feel it or be it.
But even that wanes kind oflike motivation.
But if somebody says thatthey're optimistic, I can always
ask well, what reasons do youhave to be optimistic?
And if you can give yourselfreasons to be optimistic that
you can be successful doingsomething, as you mentioned,
(25:25):
like you could go be a CEO inanother company or you could,
you know, be in charge of thisor start your own business or
work in this industry, why?
Because you've sort of built upthis track record and convince
yourself with proof and withevidence that you can do
something.
So you've given yourself areason to be optimistic that you
can do things.
So I'll take an optimisticathlete over a positive athlete
seven days out of the week.
Jay Johnson (25:49):
It seems like that also goes a little bit back to
what you had talked aboutearlier in the self-confidence
realm, and what level ofself-confidence is If I believe
I can, then I can, and if Ibelieve I can't, then I'm also
right.
So it becomes one of those.
And that's not even to say thatthere's not naivety out there,
because there are some peopleand and you know, one of the
things that I've done a lot ofwork in is youth hockey, um, and
in youth hockey, at certainages, every parent and every kid
(26:11):
thinks that they're going tothe nhl and realistically,
statistically speaking, none ofthem are going to the nhl, um,
you know.
But with that being said, thereis that optimistic hope that
does drive some form of positivebehavior in some way, shape or
form.
I do think it's important to berealistic and self-confident.
How do you balance that, gary?
(26:33):
How would you help an athlete?
You know, if the athlete comesto you and says I don't want to
get 0.2 extra seconds, give metwo extra seconds off the line,
and you know it's just like Idon't think that's going to
happen.
How do you balance that spaceof giving somebody that
optimistic, goal, focused hopeof achieving what they want to
achieve, but then also temperingthat just a little bit to say
(26:56):
is that really?
Is that really feasible, isthat possible?
Gary Chupik (27:00):
Yeah, funny.
You should mention that.
I do have a hockey athlete inCanada that I'm working with
right now, a junior hockeyplayer who was on the fourth
line, even though he's a firstline talent.
He has the ability to do that,and so he got demoted to the
fourth line, to the third line,to the second line, to the first
(27:26):
line, and then leading his teamin in scoring in the playoffs
was exceptionally rewarding forme working with him, however, so
there's something called theillusion of choice, and the
illusion of choice is what a lotof athletes have about.
You know.
You talk about sort of like,maybe an over exaggeration or an
idealistic distortion of howgood that hockey player is, and
(27:47):
and.
So one of the things I'd like totalk about is the illusion of
choice.
So, listen, I don't know if youguys have cheesecake factories
where you are, but have you everseen that menu?
It's huge, right?
There's so many choices on thatmenu.
So I say, listen, if you wantto be average, you've got lots
of choices on that menu,literally hundreds.
If you want to be really goodat nutrition, you have a lot
(28:12):
fewer choices.
If you wanted to be an elite,outstanding, excellent eater,
you don't have any choice.
There's only a couple choicesthat you have on that menu, and
so I call it the illusion ofchoice, because what we have are
players who have an outcome intheir mind, but their actions
and their behaviors and theirrhythms and their habits and
(28:34):
their disciplines don't matchthe outcome that they're looking
for.
And so, yeah, yeah, if you wantto be average, you've got lots
of choices, but if you want tobe elite, you don't have many
choices.
And so what if your disciplines, habits and behaviors matched
the ambition that you have?
And that's where you reallyneed to start.
(28:55):
And so I remember working withanother Canadian athlete here
recently who was a long-distancerunner, and he was running a
race and he finished in 13th outof a hundred, which, and he was
an underage, and I was likewell, that's pretty impressive,
you know.
But let me just ask you aquestion In the week before your
race, the biggest race of yourlife that you want to get a
scholarship for, you know, on ascale of one to a hundred,
(29:19):
because there's a hundreddifferent people racing what
place would you have givenyourself if there was an eating
contest, a nutrition contest?
And he said, well, I probablywould have finished in like 64th
.
Jay Johnson (29:30):
Interesting.
Gary Chupik (29:31):
And when it comes to your sleep, what place would
you have finished?
And no, probably about 25th,you know.
When it comes to your trainingand being, you know, like
working really hard at that,what place would you?
Maybe seventh or eighth?
I'm like, okay, so the factthat you finished, you know,
18th or 13th or whatever it was,that's pretty good, because
what you're telling me is youprepped for finishing about 35th
(29:51):
or 40th, so you should bereally proud of yourself that
you finished that well.
But could you imagine what youcould have done had you have
trained like you want it to bein top 10?
Because you probably would havebeen in top 10, if you would
have trained for it and itfashioned your life in the
different domains of your lifefor that.
So, yeah, there's a lot of,especially when it comes to
youth hockey.
Yeah, there's a lot ofaspirations and ambitions, but
(30:18):
we have to make sure that ourkids are realistic about
matching their effort with whatthey want to see happen.
Jay Johnson (30:20):
I want to go back again and highlight the
importance of something that yousaid.
You know, when you think aboutwhether you're on a field or
whether you're on a team, yourperformance is modified by a
number of things how well you'regetting sleep, how well you're
eating, how well you're training, how well you're a CEO.
(30:41):
And you are looking and this istrue.
So audience of this, youraudiences are only going to be
as good at exacting the skillsthat you're training them to as
they are in the rest of theirlife and they are with building
out their own internal routines,rhythms, habits, et cetera.
(31:01):
So it's so important, Gary, andI really love the way that you
framed that, because I think andI can imagine, you know, that a
light bulb would have had tohave gone off when you asked
that question.
If this was a nutrition race,where would you have placed?
And that moment, because Iguarantee, when he had that
(31:22):
giant hamburger and a double fryand a shake a week ago, he
probably was like, ah, it's mycheat day.
Yeah, right, you know but acheat day is an option and
exactly.
Gary Chupik (31:35):
But what's really remarkable too is that, you know
, over the course of the last Iwould say, two or three years,
the group of people that I workwith has shifted, so primarily
it was athletes, and now I wouldsay, like I'm like just being
honest about who I work with,50% now are business owners and
50% athletes, and I thinkthere's a lot of crossover
(31:58):
between sports and business.
One of the unique things aboutbusiness people is that they
don't play twice a week.
They don't play three times aweek, even for a professional
athlete that plays maybe two orthree times a week.
There's practices.
Businessmen and business peopledon't get practices.
They play five to six to sevendays a week and their lack of
(32:21):
replenishment to be able toperform at a high level is one
of the most crucial things, andwe know that sleep.
Factually, we know that sleepis the number one performance
enhancing drug in the world, andso to get that proper sleep is
crucial.
We don't, we don't know anathlete in the sports psych
world that works better off twohours sleep than seven.
We just don't know one.
You know and actually there'sbeen studies done because I love
(32:43):
to read research papers there'sactual studies done that talk
about the difference between,let's say, four-hour sleep and
eight-hour sleep, and in everysingle measurable category,
every single one, the eight-hoursleep will outperform the
four-hour sleep, every singletime.
Strength, agility, injuryprevention, decision-making,
(33:07):
decision-making, emotionalregulation, fast twitch muscle
movement.
I can go on and on, and there'sno comparison.
And so I remember walking on afootball field with a head coach
of a pro team and he said howdo you know, all things being
equal, how do I beat this otherteam, this playoff game, same
record.
You know it's going to be areal dog fight.
(33:28):
And I told him to sleep betterthan the other team and he'll
win.
And he laughed at me and I was.
I'm like I don't know whyyou're laughing.
I'm completely serious.
If you, if sports and footballis a game of you know
milliseconds and inches, thenyeah, that's probably going to
help you win and it'll push yourteam over the edge to beating
(33:48):
the other team.
And they did.
Jay Johnson (33:50):
I'm so glad that you brought that up.
So my background neuroscience,psychology, communication,
behavioral science and one of myabsolute favorite podcasts to
listen to is Andrew Huberman andthe Huberman lab, and I loved
it the one day that he broke itdown.
He said listen if you want to,if you want to have a better
life, if you want to have ahappier life, a more successful
(34:10):
life, the first thing that youcan do to improve that is get
more sleep.
The second thing is eat betterand the third thing is drink
more water.
And it's just like if everybodyjust started with those three
things they'd probably have we'dprobably have a hell of a lot
more productivity and, just youknow, interaction and engagement
.
So I love that.
(34:32):
Uh, gary, when we're looking at,when we're looking at somebody
who's stuck, you know and andmaybe we do, maybe we push them
to say, all right, we're goingto get you holistically looking
at some of these other aspectsof your life and everything else
like that, um, what, what?
I have seen and I've seen thisboth in so I played junior
(34:52):
hockey, I was an MMA fighter atone point in time, not
professionally in the octagon,but in the local area, et cetera
.
So I've always been a high, high, high compete person and
whenever I would find myselfsort of stuck it would really
impact that compete level andfor me and this is one of the
(35:14):
things that I noticed it wouldimpact it in a way where I was
just driven and I would drivemyself into exhaustion, into
burnout or any anything else,when in reality I probably
should have taken a step backand just went to sleep and got
myself healthier, so on and soforth.
So in working, whether it's inbusiness or anything else, a lot
(35:35):
of times when we're feelingstuck, it can either drive us
towards motivation or it cancompletely unmotivate us and
drop us towards depression.
How do you manage sort of thatdichotomy, because obviously
people are going to be different.
But what happens when you getthat sort of performer that just
is so driven that they're goingto drive themselves into the
(35:56):
ground?
How do you get them to backaway from that sort of internal
locus of intention?
Gary Chupik (36:01):
Yeah Well, they're committed to something, and we
have to figure out what they'recommitted to.
So maybe there's some type ofunconscious emotional commitment
, or it could be a mental one,we're not quite sure.
But that's why we have to do alittle bit of the digging.
But ultimately, what it ends upin is people get stuck between
A and B, between two things thatthey need to decide.
(36:22):
The word decision in Latinmeans to cut away, and so
they're unwilling to make adecision, cut something else
away, and so they try and juggleboth things, and only to find
out that you can't.
It'll exhaust you and burn youout, and so I think a lot of
people struggle with theindecision, and then they say
but they don't necessarilycommunicate it that way they
(36:44):
just sort of say, oh, I feelstuck, or I am stuck, or you
know something's not working.
Well, yeah, they probably have acommitment to something that's
under the surface, that theyhaven't communicated or may not
be aware of, and our job is tosort of uncover that, so helping
bring that to the surface andsaying well, what's really going
on beneath the surface?
What's the stuckness piece?
(37:06):
What are the decisions thatyou're facing in your life that
you just haven't chosen to cutaway, because there's a cost to
everything, and Thomas Sowellsaid this so well Nothing in
life is free, nothing.
Everything comes at a cost, andI think the exact wording is
everything is a trade-off.
I think that's the exactwording he used Everything is a
(37:27):
trade-off, so you can choosethis, but it means that you're
not going to have that and areyou okay with that?
And so I love that analogybecause it sets the expectations
really really well.
Like, am I?
Am I willing to give upsomething like a for b, because
I mean, I am going to have togive up something and I am going
to lose something, and you cangrieve that loss and that's okay
(37:47):
.
That's that's being human.
But at the same time, you'regoing to achieve whatever it is
that you want to achieve, and soare you willing to?
Are you willing to make thatdecision to do that?
And the truth of the matter is,is that sometimes that's a
journey, right, like we.
There's things like, for example, even in my own business,
there's some things that I haveto give up so that I can achieve
something else, and thosethings are painful because they
(38:09):
feel like, well, maybe that's mybaby and I've created it, or
maybe this is a way ofcommunicating or a way of being
or relating to people that I'vealways loved.
But in order for me to go tothe next level, I'm going to
have to evolve.
Not necessarily change, but I'mgoing to need to evolve a
little bit.
And how much do I want toevolve?
I guess that's the decisionthat we all need to make and,
just like you know, even for me,it's like in my business, just
(38:32):
to be raw, it's like, well, youknow, who am I going to have to
become in order to accomplishthis?
And sometimes I say no, I don'twant to become that, you know,
sure, and I have to be able tosay, you know, I'm just not
willing to go there.
You know, it's probably basedon my identity is probably not
(38:53):
who I want to be.
Jay Johnson (38:55):
You know I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull something out of
that because I was going to aska question.
You know, when we look at anathlete, when we look at
somebody that's a high performer, we often think, gosh, what
have they had to sacrifice toget there?
And I think you reframed itperfectly just with what you
just said is it's notnecessarily a sacrifice.
(39:15):
I mean it is, but it's atrade-off right.
Like I don't have to do this.
Sacrifice implies that there'sno other option.
You know the sacrifice play oranything else.
But I liked how you framed thatas a trade-off right.
Like, if I choose to put theenergy into this, that means I'm
choosing not to do somethingelse or put my energy somewhere
(39:38):
else, and that's a trade-off,not necessarily a sacrifice.
Is there anything else that youwould look at to kind of
reframe that concept ofsacrifice?
Because I think a lot of peoplein the way that our brain, we
don't like to lose out, we don'tlike to miss out on stuff, loss
aversion is a cognitive biasthat we all have.
That's really, really powerfulin our decision-making and our
(39:59):
behavior.
So is it appropriate to reallyjust think of it as a trade-off
or is there another way that youwould help frame that as well.
Is there another?
Gary Chupik (40:07):
way that you would help frame that as well.
Well, this digs deep intoidentity and for a lot of people
, they live out of theiridentity and I think when we can
do things like what I teach inmy sort of my business
philosophy in my business,whether it's sports or actual
business is I call itidentity-based performance.
And so if you're going tooperate out of your identity, I
(40:31):
don't think you can really evergo wrong.
If you're going to operate outof your identity because it's
going to be more natural to you,it's kind of what I call
focused, relaxed energy.
You know you're going to beable to do things that maybe
seem very, very difficult toother people, but for you it's
actually not that hard and soit's congruent.
It's congruent Exactly, yeah,yeah.
(40:51):
And so I kind of want to trustthat.
And there's an act of surrenderto trusting the way that you've
been made.
And I think when we cansurrender and trust that and say
, okay, well, I am what I am andthere's other things I wish I
was, but I'm not.
But then I think a lot of theworld can experience you living
(41:11):
out of the overflow of who youare, because it affects them in
a positive way.
And so, yeah, I mean, justrecently, I remember listening
to Khabib I don't know if yougot you're an MMA guy, right,
this guy's 24 and 0, right,khabib, and I mean he's just a
beast, no one's even come close,right, habib, and I mean he's
just a beast, no one's even comeclose.
He beat Conor McGregor recentlyas well, and it was just like
(41:33):
nothing to him.
And I remember him talkingabout this Mexican MMA fighter
coming to Kazakhstan.
I think it is, and no, was itKazakhstan?
I can't remember what countryhe's from, but he was like yeah,
you know, normally we don'tallow people to come train with
us.
There's this group of about 20MMA fighters there.
They're all incredible.
They have like one loss betweenlike eight of them.
(41:54):
It's ridiculous.
And so they somehow allowedthis one Mexican fighter to come
train with them.
And Mexican fighter, after acouple months, was ready to tap
out and he was just like I don'tknow how you guys do this.
And he said, well, I'm going togo home for Christmas.
(42:15):
And all the guys were just likewhat?
What?
You want to go home forChristmas?
Like what do you?
We don't understand.
Like, no, there's a differencebetween discipline and sacrifice
.
There are some players thatneed discipline.
There are some business peoplewho need discipline and need to
sort of figure that piece out,and then there are other players
who need to learn how tosacrifice.
It's that illusion of choice,like I'm going to sacrifice
eating everything on the menufor the that, just a couple of
(42:38):
things, and and so I don't thinkone is better than the other.
I just think that one of themis the right remedy at the right
time, whether it's disciplineor sacrifice.
And yeah, I think there's allsorts of ways to frame it Like
what do you want more?
Or you know, I mean there's alot of different ways to frame
it Like what's the trade-off?
(42:59):
Are you willing to do thetrade-off or not?
But I think, ultimately, if wecan move and live and decide who
we want to be and what we wantto do out of our identity, it's
probably a more stable, cleanburning fuel.
Jay Johnson (43:11):
It makes a lot of sense.
I mean, even somebody likeCharles Dewey talks about.
You know, if you want to changeyour behavior, identify with it
.
So instead of being somebody I,you know, I want to eat healthy
.
I am a person who eats healthy.
I want to exercise, I amsomeone who exercises every day,
and then that congruence of thebehavior really kind of goes.
(43:33):
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom in what you just said,
Gary.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
I'm sure that we could talk forhours here.
If the audience wanted to getin touch with you, how might
they be able to reach you?
Gary Chupik (43:45):
Yeah, well, primarily most of my clients are
on Instagram.
You know whether they'recoaches or business people.
So Instagram at Elite Mindsetand I'm the guy with the blue
dot so you can look for thatverified dot.
I'm also on LinkedIn and peoplecan Google me and find me all
over on Google, but primarilyInstagram is probably the number
one place.
Jay Johnson (44:04):
Gary, this has been an incredibly insightful
conversation and I know that theaudience, whoever they're
coaching, whoever they'retraining, whoever they're
representing in the HR function,they're dealing with mindsets
and they're dealing withmindsets that are all over.
They're dealing with identity,they're dealing with motivation,
they're dealing with discipline, routines, rhythms and all of
that.
There's so much great ideas,thoughts and tactics that came
(44:28):
from this conversation.
I just want to say thank youfor being here with us on the
Talent Forge today.
Gary Chupik (44:32):
Yeah, thank you for having me, and if I could give
a free gift to your listeners, Iwould love to do that.
So, I created a mentalperformance assessment.
I think it's the most thoroughassessment on the internet.
I don't say that lightly.
As a salesperson.
I actually know that it's themost thorough mental performance
assessment on the internetbecause I studied this stuff and
I'm nerd out about that kind ofstuff.
So it'sEliteMindsetAssessmentcom and
(44:55):
for your audience I'd love togive a free gift.
So if they type in ELITE withall capitals and the number 100,
they can take it for free.
It's anywhere between a $30 and$150 value and they can take it
for free.
So EL 100 and and that's.
They can figure out where youknow where the growth areas in
their mindset are and where theareas that are doing really well
(45:16):
.
Jay Johnson (45:17):
That's incredibly kind, gary, thank you.
So, audience, you heard thatall caps elite 100, go check it
out.
We'll make sure that that linkis in the show notes so that way
you can find it there.
We won't put the code in there,so it's only if you're
listening.
We want to get you out there.
But go give it a shot, let's.
Let's learn about our.
You know I am an assessmentsperson.
I've not taken it, but Iguarantee you I'm going to check
(45:39):
it out, gary.
So again, thank you for thekind offer and for being here
today.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today I have a special guest,gary Chupik.
Welcome to the show, gary.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
So you know, when we hadconnected and I got to take a
little bit of look at yourbackground, I was so impressed
and I really felt like this isgoing to be a great conversation
(00:23):
.
And before we get into that,can you help us, help us
understand, gary?
How did you get into this spaceand you know really what's your
passion with talent developmentand people development.
Gary Chupik (00:35):
Yeah, so as a mental performance coach, it's
really interesting.
So a lot of people don'tunderstand the difference
between a sports psychologistand a mental performance coach.
A sports psychologist would besomeone who is a psychologist,
so they have the label and havethe licensure and then they add
a little performance stuff onthe end.
So 80 to 90% of their educationreally is psychology, which
(00:56):
really discovers maladaptivethoughts and behaviors in their
clients.
But a mental performance coachlooks at what's right with
people and then we try andreplicate that and share that
with others.
So it's, it's, it's I kind ofcall it all gas, no brakes.
And so a mental performancecoach, think of someone who,
let's say, you're walkingthrough the the which is a true
(01:17):
story, by the way but let's sayyou're walking through a
professional football franchiseand you're walking in the
hallways and you see thetraining room.
So I call that mental healthand mental wellness, but you
walk through the gym and that'swhat I call mental performance.
And so I think there's I thinka lot of people really get, you
know, an incomplete view ofmental performance and mental
health.
I think mental health is onlypart A, I think mental
(01:39):
performance is part B, and yougot to be able to get stronger.
So I think if we can helppeople get stronger, they can
avoid perhaps the training roomwith getting bruised up and
bandaged up and don't get mewrong, there's definitely a need
for that.
However, I think we sellourselves short and leave a lot
of performance on the table whenwe don't really get into the
gym and get stronger.
Jay Johnson (01:59):
Okay, so I love that distinction and I love that
background.
Now you've worked with a lot ofhigh performance athletes,
professionals, all over in anumber of different sports.
Talk to me what is the processfor mental performance training
and like what does that looklike?
Gary Chupik (02:15):
Well, I don't know about you, but you know I've
never really baked a chocolatecake before.
I've tried, maybe a couple oftimes, to do something that
resembled the chocolate cake,but it hasn't been successful.
But one thing I do know that ifyou're going to bake a
chocolate cake, that there's asequence to the ingredients,
mixing the ingredients, and Ithink in a lot of ways a lot of
(02:36):
people have all the rightingredients but they haven't
learned how to sequence themproperly to get an intended
outcome, and so we minimizesequence.
And it's one of the things thatchat GPT really is not
sufficient at.
You can get all the rightanswers, but if you don't
sequence it properly you're notgoing to get the intended result
.
So I think helping peopleunderstand that there is a
(02:57):
sequence to mental performanceand for me personally in the way
that I present my material, isthat the holy grail of all
mental performance is notmotivation, it's self-leadership
.
In other words, you don't haveto be motivated to lead yourself
well.
So if people depend onmotivation, it kind of wanes up
and down, and even for mesometimes it wanes up and down,
(03:18):
but if I'm disciplined enoughand I'm sort of leading myself
really well, motivation reallyisn't part of the equation.
I remember talking to adefensive tackle, starting
defensive tackle in the NFL, andI said how important is
motivation to you?
And he said, at my level it'snot.
And I think most professionalathletes would do that.
In fact, a couple of years agoI attended a mental performance
(03:42):
conference where they had justsort of outstanding speakers who
worked with the highestathletes in the world and we I
don't even know if the wordmotivation was ever, ever
uttered for like two straightdays.
Jay Johnson (03:55):
So it's actually Motivations I mean.
To that regard.
Motivation is unsustainable.
It's so expensive to the brain,like just the very act of
willpower, and motivation istaxing and a number of different
studies.
Everything from the legalsystem, like our decisions at
the end of the day or ourmotivations to do things at the
(04:15):
end of the day significantlydrop because of the energy that
it takes and the energy that weexpend.
So I love that you're bringingthat up.
Motivation is probably not.
But talk to me a little bit.
Dig deeper on, you know, digdeeper on the other side of that
.
So that leadership, thatself-leadership, what does that
look like?
Is that discipline?
Is that routine?
Is that habits?
Is that?
What is that?
Gary Chupik (04:37):
Yeah, that's an outstanding question.
I think for me it really stemsfrom an understanding of how I
build my own self-leadershipnumber one and then how I sort
of expand that to reach otherpeople groups.
So, for example, I havesomething that I teach called
the leadership pyramid, and thebottom of the pyramid is
self-leadership.
The next level is coupleleadership, and I don't mean
(04:57):
romantically, I just mean thatyou're able to coach or mentor
or be an example to somebodyelse, and if you can do that
well, then you can do groupleadership and if you do that
well you can do area ordepartment leadership and
finally you can doorganizational leadership.
But what it does is it sort ofgives a pathway for a lot of
people to figure out how topromote themselves.
(05:17):
And I don't mean like sociallypromote themselves, I just mean,
yeah, there's a lot ofopportunities.
If you live your life well andyou self-lead, then you're going
to get opportunities to lead inorganizations.
And the thing I think the secretsauce with this self-leadership
thing is that it never endsLike you have to continually
keep that blade sharp and assoon as you start compromising
(05:40):
your self-leadership, that'swhen organizations start to
crumble, and that's primarilybecause of the leadership of the
primary leader, like, forexample, here in Seattle.
It's Boeing.
I'm not afraid to say thatBoeing has terrible leadership,
who passes on responsibility forthings that go wrong, and so
when your leadership at the verytop doesn't go well, the entire
business suffers, and Boeing isa clear example of that.
(06:03):
Not to bash anybody, but Idon't mind being honest.
So yeah, no one's pluckingBoeing executives because of
their leadership.
You know they're taking Amazon.
They're plucking Amazon.
They're plucking Costco,they're plucking Expedia.
They're plucking all thesegreat companies here in the
Seattle area, but Boeing's notone of them.
But Boeing's not one of them.
Jay Johnson (06:22):
Well, it's interesting as soon as you said
that sort of triangle ofleadership I really thought of,
like Maslow's needs hierarchy,right, and that base level, that
structural level of we need tohave our physiological needs
before we move into the nextlevel of safety and then the
next level of belonging, etc.
So from that base level, thatself-leadership, I can see that
(06:43):
being the structure becausethat's going to influence how
you show up at every other levelof that triangle.
So I really like that.
So so, gary, when we'rethinking about self-leadership
and and let's use the world ofhigh performance athletes right
now, what are some of the bigthings that you look at as sort
(07:03):
of gaps?
Where do, where do some of theyou know?
Because, obviously in you'reworking with high performance
athletes and I want to thinkabout it this way they've gotten
to where they've gotten there.
Obviously, a lot of theirbehaviors, a lot of their
leadership has gotten them thisfar, and that can be raw talent,
that can be motivation, thatcan be willpower.
They've gotten to this space.
(07:26):
So, in their minds at least,the way that the brain works is
generally well.
If it's worked for me before, Iwant to do it again.
So now we're we're taking themto a new level, like you said,
hitting the gas and moving themeven beyond what they can
imagine.
How do we identify the gaps?
And then also, how do we coachto that brain going hey, this is
(07:47):
this is actually, this is nextlevel.
This is how you get to thatnext level.
Gary Chupik (07:53):
Yeah, it's a really great question because a lot of
players don't understand thepower of domain management.
So, you're right, they'll.
They'll reach the peak of theirphysical ability and they have
a lot of talent and they developtheir skill.
And there's something I callthe ideal athlete.
There's 12 different categoriesthere's probably more, but
those are probably the big onesand what we're looking for is
(08:14):
gaps.
And so actually, I created amental performance assessment
that I can share with yourlisteners later and give them a
discount code.
But I'm trying to find not justwhat you're good at and what
you're bad at, but I'm reallyfocused on the gaps.
And so let's say, you're 70%good at self-confidence.
Well, you have a 30% gap.
There's a lot of gain here tobe embraced, and so if you'll
(08:38):
just sort of focus on the gaps,you're going to be a lot better
off.
So I think a lot of the forprofessional athletes.
I think you know over are thedays where you could be just
excellent at one thing, but atrain wreck and all the other
things, all the differentdomains of your life, are really
important.
So, for example, when we see anathlete really struggling on
(08:58):
the surface of the or theplaying surface, we can sort of
take a guess that they'restruggling in all the different
domains of their life, orspecific domains of their life,
for example, their marriage.
There's no other relationshipin that athlete's life that is
going to promote or help theirperformance or hurt their
performance more than theirspouse, and so helping them
(09:19):
focus on the different domainsof their life is incredibly
important.
So I like to think of, likefinding these hidden reservoirs
of performance, and a marriagerelationship or significant
other relationship could be oneof those, those, those
reservoirs or treasures ofperformance.
So sometimes you got to gosearching for it.
Other times it's just themindset, like, for example, pete
(09:40):
Carroll, coach of the Seahawksand apparently now coach of the
Raiders.
He said to me one time thatGary, the best always want to
get better.
They don't stop and they'realways looking for a competitive
edge.
And we tend to think that youhave to be sick to want to get
better or this person needscoaching because they're not
doing very well.
Well, there's certainly timeswhere I can help an athlete
that's not doing very well.
(10:00):
I can help them.
But, man, is it ever fun totake someone who's just all gas
and like how do I be better, howdo I do this?
How do I do that?
One of my favorite stories toshare is about a guy who was a
businessman in Las Vegas and wewere sitting down our second
coaching session ever and wewere in his office and we were
(10:20):
about 10 minutes into a coachingsession and he said, hey, can
we just stop for a second andcan you leave my office please?
And I was.
I was like I don't know why,what's going on?
Like I didn't know if I saidanything to offend him or what.
So I went out glass wall, sitoutside in the lobby and about
10 or 15 minutes he waves me andafter he's on the phone and on
his computer and I walked backin and he says, gary, you just
(10:42):
made me $1.2 million.
And he said, at $100,000,you're a good deal.
And I was just like what Areyou kidding me?
Like what did you do?
And this guy was so interestedin inspired action it's not just
action, it's inspired action.
And so he took that inspiredaction in that moment and he was
(11:05):
like he couldn't wait for thesession to be over, he just
acted right away.
And those are the kind ofathletes you love to work with,
because, like even RussellWilson would talk to Trevor Mo
help.
Well, of course not.
Russell just wanted to staysharp, and so I think one of the
(11:26):
misconceptions of coaching isthat you have to be sick to, you
know, to want to, to get better, and it's just not the truth.
Jay Johnson (11:33):
And let me dig in on that, because there's and
this is what I have found in mycorporate executives CEO type
coaching and and even down theline, if I am assigned somebody
who's underperforming as theircoach.
So if an organization reachesout and says, hey, this person's
(11:53):
really underperforming, wethink they're better, we want
them to get better, et cetera,et cetera, et cetera.
Versus if that person is,either that person could be
underperforming or that personcould be high performance.
If they individually come to mebecause they want to get better
, that's a big, big difference.
(12:13):
So you know, I and I guaranteethe coaches or the trainers or
anybody else have experiencedthis where, hey, we need you to
go fix this problem, or hey,this.
Where, hey, we need you to gofix this problem, or hey, we
want you to go accelerate thisadvantage.
And we rarely, at least in thecorporate world, rarely get the
go accelerate this advantage.
(12:35):
So talk to me, gary, because yousaid you've done both sides,
you've helped the athletes thatare maybe underperforming or
you've been assigned.
Or somebody said, hey, you gotto go get coaching because
you're sucking right now, versusyou've worked with those
athletes that are like Gary, I'mat the top of my game, but the
top can get bigger.
How do you approach those twodifferent mediums?
(12:57):
Because it's it's in.
In my experience it'scompletely different.
It's a completely differentgame.
Gary Chupik (13:04):
Yeah, very much so.
Yeah, the people who want toget better, you can just give
them crumbs and they'll justgobble them up and they will
like, magnify, and you know,there's an exponential sense of
their growth when they takesomething that they really like
and they just go for it, versussomeone maybe with a fixed
mindset, maybe someone who youknow, like you said, versus
someone maybe with a fixedmindset, maybe someone who you
(13:25):
know, like you said, sort of thecoaching is being forced on
them somehow.
That's, I think that's whereyour, my skill really comes
through is how do we motivatesomeone who's not motivated or
inspire someone who's notinspired, and and that's that's
quite a challenge.
And what I find is it's reallyinteresting.
And what I find is, you knowSimon Sinek.
He wrote a book called you knowStart With why, but I think
(13:48):
there's a step that he's missing.
And again, this is a PeteCarroll quote, so I can't claim
it as my own, but he said youknow, start with why, but finish
with who, or end with who, andsomehow we've got to be able to
touch the head and the heart.
So the head is your clarity,the heart is your conviction,
and so the people who are reallyinspired and already going for
(14:11):
it.
They've made the electricalconnection between their head
and their heart, but somehowthat underperforming employee or
athlete hasn't made theconnection between head and
heart, and I feel like that'sone of the areas that we can tap
into, is like there's notenough clarity for them, and so
feel like that's one of theareas that we can tap into, is
like there's not enough clarityfor them, and so, because
there's not enough clarity, theycan procrastinate, because
procrastination is not theproblem.
(14:32):
Procrastination is a symptom,symptom of the problem.
Agreed, so for me it's likeokay, well, so either they're
not clear about something orthey don't have enough
conviction about something, butoftentimes the who is their
conviction, like that's wheretheir passion is.
So, for example, I was workingwith a player in the NFL and he
was saying Gary, just make metwo tenths of a second faster.
(14:53):
Can you make me two tenths of asecond faster?
I've done all the kinetictraining I can do, but what
about my mind?
I haven't tapped into that yetand I said well, what would two
tenths of a second do for you?
Well, that would make give memore tackles and more sacks and
more hurries.
And what would that do for you?
Well, that would put me in thepro bowl.
And what would that do for you?
Well, that would, you know, getme my next big contract.
And I finally I said, well, whata little bit of a treasure hunt
(15:16):
for some people that maybe thatare underperforming.
It's like, well, how do I, howdo I tap into something that
actually sort of lights theirfire a little bit?
And and sometimes that's achallenge, and sometimes there
are people that are pretty stonecold about that and there are
(15:36):
other people who are who you cansort of reach and sort of crack
open that shell a little bitand you can find that.
So sometimes it's a matter ofyeah, I like to think of myself
as a cocoon cutter.
You know, like in Lord of theRings, when Samwise is looking
(15:57):
for Frodo and he finds him, andhe sort of opens that cocoon to
find out that Frodo, he's living, but he's not really alive, and
I think a lot of people areliving but they're not alive.
Jay Johnson (16:05):
Well, and I like what you said there because I
think about it in terms of, youknow, adding the who at the end
of why.
Because a lot of people, evenwhen you're developing, like, an
organizational mission, visionor whatever else, or
establishing organizationalpurpose, they'll talk about the
why but they don't talk aboutthe who and how it impacts not
only the individual that'sworking there, but the end user
(16:26):
or the person that's benefitingfrom the service or so on and so
forth, and that human factor,that humanization of it, can
really be motivating.
We do way more for other people, especially if we like those
other people, than sometimes wedo for ourselves.
You know, somebody else goes totheir doctor's appointment, but
make time for ourselves,absolutely yeah.
Gary Chupik (16:46):
Yeah, well, I got it.
I have a really powerful story.
That that just a really shortone.
I was going to work with thepresident of the Houston Texans
of the NFL and we had beentalking and his name is Jamie
Roots and Jamie, we've beentalking, so I do something
called the game plan for life,which is how to live a high
performance lifestyle, and Ihave a playbook for the mind.
(17:06):
You know, that is sort ofcommon sense, that's my mental
performance stuff.
But Jamie was going to take thehigh performance lifestyle
piece and so he was flying meout to Houston three months
before, two months before, onemonth before we were all we were
talking and we were connectingon voicemail and phone calls and
text messages.
And you know, then it was threeweeks, two weeks and one week,
(17:29):
and for some reason he wasn'treturning my text messages or
phone calls.
A week before we were going towork together, and so I kept on
trying to connect with him andeventually I called his
executive assistant and she saidyou didn't hear and I said no,
and and she had said that Jamiehad taken his own, and I said no
, and she had said that Jamiehad taken his own life.
And I thought to myself I mean,it really affected me.
(17:51):
I mean I do a business, justlike yourself, and we help
people become their very bestand whatever.
But sometimes this stuff is amatter of life and death.
And you would think, you know,you're CEO of the year, you're
the president of an NFLfranchise, you know there's
nowhere really higher to go, insome senses, in the sports world
(18:12):
, and you could have everything.
And I don't know all thereasons why he took his life,
but I did talk to the family alittle bit.
But in the end you just neverknow how someone's doing.
You never know.
And so I think when we talkabout coaching or we talk about
wellness or we talk about mentalhealth or mental performance,
this stuff really is life anddeath.
And until that hits you and Ireally deeply, until we realize
(18:35):
how serious it is that we do,man, maybe we kind of like view
this as not so serious, or maybethis is, you know, maybe this
is sort of an add-on, or maybethis is sort of just like
helping somebody tweak theirability.
No, no, no, some of this stuffis life and death and we need to
take it seriously every time.
Jay Johnson (18:53):
Well, thank you for sharing that story and that's
absolutely tragic, but it doesdemonstrate, you know, it
doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter whether youare perceived as successful or
perceived as a high profile,perceived as having a perfect
life or anything else like that.
We really don't always knowwhat's going on inside of
somebody else's brain, theirfeelings, their emotions, and
(19:14):
you know I love that the workthat you're doing is not the
holistic aspect.
That's something that I thinkis so important and it's
something that I want.
If you're listening to thispodcast and you're a trainer and
maybe you're a leadershiptrainer, maybe you're a
communications trainer, maybeyou are a conflict mediator,
whatever it is be thinking aboutthat sort of holistic strategy,
(19:36):
like it's not just aboutconflict in the workplace.
That person probably has someunderlying issues, challenges,
maybe burnout, maybe emotionaltraumas at home or whatever else
that's feeding it.
So I want to hear from you onthis, gary, because one of the
(19:56):
things that we've heard is theconcepts of work-life balance,
and then we hear it as work-lifeintegration, and then we hear
it as well there is no suchthing as work-life balance,
because you know, you can't justcompartmentalize every aspect
of the individual humanexperience into these little
neat boxes.
I'd love to hear your kind ofperspective on that, because I
do know that.
(20:17):
You know every third article istalking about how to create
work-life balance and work-lifehappiness, and so on and so
forth.
What are your thoughts on that?
Gary Chupik (20:27):
Yeah, that's actually a complicated question
to answer, in my view, becausethere's like one of the
distinctions that it makes methink of is like there are some
people who like to spend theeight hours of their day
investing in what's very, verymeaningful to them, and then in
the evenings, in their time away, that's when they feel like
they come alive and do some ofthe things that make them happy.
(20:49):
There are other people whodon't mind eight hours of the
day working in a factory andtying shoelaces I mean, they
don't mind the mundane and thenthey enjoy the evening.
Or it's the other way around,right?
They want to just feelpassionate about what they do
all day long and then in theevening, just kind of relax and
do nothing.
So it kind of depends on yourwiring a little bit, and so when
(21:11):
we talk about work-life balance, there are so many people all
over the map that that you knowthat's really important to them,
that work-life balance will.
Yeah, in some respects itdepends how you, what kind of a
person you are.
I, on the other hand, I like tofind meaning in my work during
the day, and so I don't, I don't, I don't do work-life balance
(21:32):
very well, like I just thinkit's all fun and it's all
enjoyable and and I so I don'tmind working until six or 7 PM
or waking up at 345 in themorning, like I usually do I
just really really enjoy that alot, you know, and so I don't
know.
I think the whole, the wholething is a little bit overrated
and blown out of proportion.
But I think tapping into howyou're wired and your identity
(21:55):
is far more important.
So if you really enjoy workinghard and of course we just know
that there are seasonsthroughout the year where we're
going to work hard, but I alwayssay what goes up must come down
it's like a ball in gravity.
If you're going to expend a lotof energy for a while, you're
going to have to figure out ways.
In sort of an oscillating kindof way, you're going to have to
figure out how to sort of comedown for that.
(22:15):
Even if you feel like you'repretty good, like you've got a
lot of energy, you still need tofind ways to replenish that
type of energy.
So so yeah, I just think it's adifficult question to answer
and it probably depends more onpeople's sense of identity and
what they do and what they getenergy from than just sort of a
blanket statement for everyone.
Jay Johnson (22:33):
Yeah, I love that.
You know, for me I'm veryfortunate because I'm in the
same boat.
I can work 16 hours a day andit doesn't feel like work.
I love what I'm doing becauseI'm either researching, learning
, interacting, looking atbehavior and all that fun stuff.
So for me it's just super easy.
But I think for me it has alwaysbeen.
(22:55):
I'm confident that I could makemoney anywhere.
I could go and work in acompany, I could go be a CEO
somewhere else.
But it has always been lessabout the money for me than it
is the enjoyable experience andtrying to find mastery.
So being self-aware in thatregard I think has helped.
So you know, when I think aboutlike work-life integration, my
life and my work is veryintegrated.
(23:17):
When I'm working, I'm happy.
When I'm off of work, I'm alsohappy.
So it's like you know.
So I'm very fortunate in that.
But I really like what you saidabout the wiring aspect,
because there are some peoplewho say, no, I don't love work,
but I go to work for five youknow my eight hours a day to get
the paycheck that affords methe opportunity to do X, y and Z
and if you're happy andsatisfied doing that, by all
(23:40):
means.
Gary Chupik (23:40):
but yeah, yeah, agreed, you know one of the
things that I need to circleback on is you were talking
about like, essentially likewhat is at the core, and I
talked about self leadership.
But if you take the nextconcentric circle, so if that's
at the center, if that's thebullseye, the next concentric
circle is developing thedisciplines and habits.
And a lot of people sort ofviscerally react to the word
(24:03):
habit, and it's either like youlove it or you don't, or even
the word discipline you love itor you don't.
But in those cases where peoplestruggle with that word, I just
like to use the word rhythms,like what are the rhythms that
always put you in the bestposition to succeed?
And if you can invest in thoserhythms and have those rhythms
in your life, then you'reprobably going to be in a much
(24:23):
better position to be able tosucceed.
Because in the sports world wesay, listen, you can throw the
perfect pitch and it get hit fora home run, right.
So you can never control anoutcome, but you can always put
yourself in the best position tosucceed.
And so what are the rhythms ordisciplines or habits that you
can invest in in your life thatputs you in the best position to
succeed, that you can invest inin your life.
That puts you in the bestposition to succeed.
(24:44):
And I think if you just investin those you can have a sort of
an optimistic view of life.
I'm not much into positivity.
I have sort of a little bit ofan ax to grind with positivity.
But optimism is a far betterresponse than positivity and
optimism.
And for this reason optimismalways requires a reason for you
to be optimistic.
(25:05):
Positivity you don't need areason to be positive, you can
just sort of feel it or be it.
But even that wanes kind oflike motivation.
But if somebody says thatthey're optimistic, I can always
ask well, what reasons do youhave to be optimistic?
And if you can give yourselfreasons to be optimistic that
you can be successful doingsomething, as you mentioned,
(25:25):
like you could go be a CEO inanother company or you could,
you know, be in charge of thisor start your own business or
work in this industry, why?
Because you've sort of built upthis track record and convince
yourself with proof and withevidence that you can do
something.
So you've given yourself areason to be optimistic that you
can do things.
So I'll take an optimisticathlete over a positive athlete
seven days out of the week.
Jay Johnson (25:49):
It seems like that also goes a little bit back to
what you had talked aboutearlier in the self-confidence
realm, and what level ofself-confidence is If I believe
I can, then I can, and if Ibelieve I can't, then I'm also
right.
So it becomes one of those.
And that's not even to say thatthere's not naivety out there,
because there are some peopleand and you know, one of the
things that I've done a lot ofwork in is youth hockey, um, and
in youth hockey, at certainages, every parent and every kid
(26:11):
thinks that they're going tothe nhl and realistically,
statistically speaking, none ofthem are going to the nhl, um,
you know.
But with that being said, thereis that optimistic hope that
does drive some form of positivebehavior in some way, shape or
form.
I do think it's important to berealistic and self-confident.
How do you balance that, gary?
(26:33):
How would you help an athlete?
You know, if the athlete comesto you and says I don't want to
get 0.2 extra seconds, give metwo extra seconds off the line,
and you know it's just like Idon't think that's going to
happen.
How do you balance that spaceof giving somebody that
optimistic, goal, focused hopeof achieving what they want to
achieve, but then also temperingthat just a little bit to say
(26:56):
is that really?
Is that really feasible, isthat possible?
Gary Chupik (27:00):
Yeah, funny.
You should mention that.
I do have a hockey athlete inCanada that I'm working with
right now, a junior hockeyplayer who was on the fourth
line, even though he's a firstline talent.
He has the ability to do that,and so he got demoted to the
fourth line, to the third line,to the second line, to the first
(27:26):
line, and then leading his teamin in scoring in the playoffs
was exceptionally rewarding forme working with him, however, so
there's something called theillusion of choice, and the
illusion of choice is what a lotof athletes have about.
You know.
You talk about sort of like,maybe an over exaggeration or an
idealistic distortion of howgood that hockey player is, and
(27:47):
and.
So one of the things I'd like totalk about is the illusion of
choice.
So, listen, I don't know if youguys have cheesecake factories
where you are, but have you everseen that menu?
It's huge, right?
There's so many choices on thatmenu.
So I say, listen, if you wantto be average, you've got lots
of choices on that menu,literally hundreds.
If you want to be really goodat nutrition, you have a lot
(28:12):
fewer choices.
If you wanted to be an elite,outstanding, excellent eater,
you don't have any choice.
There's only a couple choicesthat you have on that menu, and
so I call it the illusion ofchoice, because what we have are
players who have an outcome intheir mind, but their actions
and their behaviors and theirrhythms and their habits and
(28:34):
their disciplines don't matchthe outcome that they're looking
for.
And so, yeah, yeah, if you wantto be average, you've got lots
of choices, but if you want tobe elite, you don't have many
choices.
And so what if your disciplines, habits and behaviors matched
the ambition that you have?
And that's where you reallyneed to start.
(28:55):
And so I remember working withanother Canadian athlete here
recently who was a long-distancerunner, and he was running a
race and he finished in 13th outof a hundred, which, and he was
an underage, and I was likewell, that's pretty impressive,
you know.
But let me just ask you aquestion In the week before your
race, the biggest race of yourlife that you want to get a
scholarship for, you know, on ascale of one to a hundred,
(29:19):
because there's a hundreddifferent people racing what
place would you have givenyourself if there was an eating
contest, a nutrition contest?
And he said, well, I probablywould have finished in like 64th
.
Jay Johnson (29:30):
Interesting.
Gary Chupik (29:31):
And when it comes to your sleep, what place would
you have finished?
And no, probably about 25th,you know.
When it comes to your trainingand being, you know, like
working really hard at that,what place would you?
Maybe seventh or eighth?
I'm like, okay, so the factthat you finished, you know,
18th or 13th or whatever it was,that's pretty good, because
what you're telling me is youprepped for finishing about 35th
(29:51):
or 40th, so you should bereally proud of yourself that
you finished that well.
But could you imagine what youcould have done had you have
trained like you want it to bein top 10?
Because you probably would havebeen in top 10, if you would
have trained for it and itfashioned your life in the
different domains of your lifefor that.
So, yeah, there's a lot of,especially when it comes to
youth hockey.
Yeah, there's a lot ofaspirations and ambitions, but
(30:18):
we have to make sure that ourkids are realistic about
matching their effort with whatthey want to see happen.
Jay Johnson (30:20):
I want to go back again and highlight the
importance of something that yousaid.
You know, when you think aboutwhether you're on a field or
whether you're on a team, yourperformance is modified by a
number of things how well you'regetting sleep, how well you're
eating, how well you're training, how well you're a CEO.
(30:41):
And you are looking and this istrue.
So audience of this, youraudiences are only going to be
as good at exacting the skillsthat you're training them to as
they are in the rest of theirlife and they are with building
out their own internal routines,rhythms, habits, et cetera.
(31:01):
So it's so important, Gary, andI really love the way that you
framed that, because I think andI can imagine, you know, that a
light bulb would have had tohave gone off when you asked
that question.
If this was a nutrition race,where would you have placed?
And that moment, because Iguarantee, when he had that
(31:22):
giant hamburger and a double fryand a shake a week ago, he
probably was like, ah, it's mycheat day.
Yeah, right, you know but acheat day is an option and
exactly.
Gary Chupik (31:35):
But what's really remarkable too is that, you know
, over the course of the last Iwould say, two or three years,
the group of people that I workwith has shifted, so primarily
it was athletes, and now I wouldsay, like I'm like just being
honest about who I work with,50% now are business owners and
50% athletes, and I thinkthere's a lot of crossover
(31:58):
between sports and business.
One of the unique things aboutbusiness people is that they
don't play twice a week.
They don't play three times aweek, even for a professional
athlete that plays maybe two orthree times a week.
There's practices.
Businessmen and business peopledon't get practices.
They play five to six to sevendays a week and their lack of
(32:21):
replenishment to be able toperform at a high level is one
of the most crucial things, andwe know that sleep.
Factually, we know that sleepis the number one performance
enhancing drug in the world, andso to get that proper sleep is
crucial.
We don't, we don't know anathlete in the sports psych
world that works better off twohours sleep than seven.
We just don't know one.
You know and actually there'sbeen studies done because I love
(32:43):
to read research papers there'sactual studies done that talk
about the difference between,let's say, four-hour sleep and
eight-hour sleep, and in everysingle measurable category,
every single one, the eight-hoursleep will outperform the
four-hour sleep, every singletime.
Strength, agility, injuryprevention, decision-making,
(33:07):
decision-making, emotionalregulation, fast twitch muscle
movement.
I can go on and on, and there'sno comparison.
And so I remember walking on afootball field with a head coach
of a pro team and he said howdo you know, all things being
equal, how do I beat this otherteam, this playoff game, same
record.
You know it's going to be areal dog fight.
(33:28):
And I told him to sleep betterthan the other team and he'll
win.
And he laughed at me and I was.
I'm like I don't know whyyou're laughing.
I'm completely serious.
If you, if sports and footballis a game of you know
milliseconds and inches, thenyeah, that's probably going to
help you win and it'll push yourteam over the edge to beating
(33:48):
the other team.
And they did.
Jay Johnson (33:50):
I'm so glad that you brought that up.
So my background neuroscience,psychology, communication,
behavioral science and one of myabsolute favorite podcasts to
listen to is Andrew Huberman andthe Huberman lab, and I loved
it the one day that he broke itdown.
He said listen if you want to,if you want to have a better
life, if you want to have ahappier life, a more successful
(34:10):
life, the first thing that youcan do to improve that is get
more sleep.
The second thing is eat betterand the third thing is drink
more water.
And it's just like if everybodyjust started with those three
things they'd probably have we'dprobably have a hell of a lot
more productivity and, just youknow, interaction and engagement
.
So I love that.
(34:32):
Uh, gary, when we're looking at,when we're looking at somebody
who's stuck, you know and andmaybe we do, maybe we push them
to say, all right, we're goingto get you holistically looking
at some of these other aspectsof your life and everything else
like that, um, what, what?
I have seen and I've seen thisboth in so I played junior
(34:52):
hockey, I was an MMA fighter atone point in time, not
professionally in the octagon,but in the local area, et cetera
.
So I've always been a high, high, high compete person and
whenever I would find myselfsort of stuck it would really
impact that compete level andfor me and this is one of the
(35:14):
things that I noticed it wouldimpact it in a way where I was
just driven and I would drivemyself into exhaustion, into
burnout or any anything else,when in reality I probably
should have taken a step backand just went to sleep and got
myself healthier, so on and soforth.
So in working, whether it's inbusiness or anything else, a lot
(35:35):
of times when we're feelingstuck, it can either drive us
towards motivation or it cancompletely unmotivate us and
drop us towards depression.
How do you manage sort of thatdichotomy, because obviously
people are going to be different.
But what happens when you getthat sort of performer that just
is so driven that they're goingto drive themselves into the
(35:56):
ground?
How do you get them to backaway from that sort of internal
locus of intention?
Gary Chupik (36:01):
Yeah Well, they're committed to something, and we
have to figure out what they'recommitted to.
So maybe there's some type ofunconscious emotional commitment
, or it could be a mental one,we're not quite sure.
But that's why we have to do alittle bit of the digging.
But ultimately, what it ends upin is people get stuck between
A and B, between two things thatthey need to decide.
(36:22):
The word decision in Latinmeans to cut away, and so
they're unwilling to make adecision, cut something else
away, and so they try and juggleboth things, and only to find
out that you can't.
It'll exhaust you and burn youout, and so I think a lot of
people struggle with theindecision, and then they say
but they don't necessarilycommunicate it that way they
(36:44):
just sort of say, oh, I feelstuck, or I am stuck, or you
know something's not working.
Well, yeah, they probably have acommitment to something that's
under the surface, that theyhaven't communicated or may not
be aware of, and our job is tosort of uncover that, so helping
bring that to the surface andsaying well, what's really going
on beneath the surface?
What's the stuckness piece?
(37:06):
What are the decisions thatyou're facing in your life that
you just haven't chosen to cutaway, because there's a cost to
everything, and Thomas Sowellsaid this so well Nothing in
life is free, nothing.
Everything comes at a cost, andI think the exact wording is
everything is a trade-off.
I think that's the exactwording he used Everything is a
(37:27):
trade-off, so you can choosethis, but it means that you're
not going to have that and areyou okay with that?
And so I love that analogybecause it sets the expectations
really really well.
Like, am I?
Am I willing to give upsomething like a for b, because
I mean, I am going to have togive up something and I am going
to lose something, and you cangrieve that loss and that's okay
(37:47):
.
That's that's being human.
But at the same time, you'regoing to achieve whatever it is
that you want to achieve, and soare you willing to?
Are you willing to make thatdecision to do that?
And the truth of the matter is,is that sometimes that's a
journey, right, like we.
There's things like, for example, even in my own business,
there's some things that I haveto give up so that I can achieve
something else, and thosethings are painful because they
(38:09):
feel like, well, maybe that's mybaby and I've created it, or
maybe this is a way ofcommunicating or a way of being
or relating to people that I'vealways loved.
But in order for me to go tothe next level, I'm going to
have to evolve.
Not necessarily change, but I'mgoing to need to evolve a
little bit.
And how much do I want toevolve?
I guess that's the decisionthat we all need to make and,
just like you know, even for me,it's like in my business, just
(38:32):
to be raw, it's like, well, youknow, who am I going to have to
become in order to accomplishthis?
And sometimes I say no, I don'twant to become that, you know,
sure, and I have to be able tosay, you know, I'm just not
willing to go there.
You know, it's probably basedon my identity is probably not
(38:53):
who I want to be.
Jay Johnson (38:55):
You know I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull something out of
that because I was going to aska question.
You know, when we look at anathlete, when we look at
somebody that's a high performer, we often think, gosh, what
have they had to sacrifice toget there?
And I think you reframed itperfectly just with what you
just said is it's notnecessarily a sacrifice.
(39:15):
I mean it is, but it's atrade-off right.
Like I don't have to do this.
Sacrifice implies that there'sno other option.
You know the sacrifice play oranything else.
But I liked how you framed thatas a trade-off right.
Like, if I choose to put theenergy into this, that means I'm
choosing not to do somethingelse or put my energy somewhere
(39:38):
else, and that's a trade-off,not necessarily a sacrifice.
Is there anything else that youwould look at to kind of
reframe that concept ofsacrifice?
Because I think a lot of peoplein the way that our brain, we
don't like to lose out, we don'tlike to miss out on stuff, loss
aversion is a cognitive biasthat we all have.
That's really, really powerfulin our decision-making and our
(39:59):
behavior.
So is it appropriate to reallyjust think of it as a trade-off
or is there another way that youwould help frame that as well.
Is there another?
Gary Chupik (40:07):
way that you would help frame that as well.
Well, this digs deep intoidentity and for a lot of people
, they live out of theiridentity and I think when we can
do things like what I teach inmy sort of my business
philosophy in my business,whether it's sports or actual
business is I call itidentity-based performance.
And so if you're going tooperate out of your identity, I
(40:31):
don't think you can really evergo wrong.
If you're going to operate outof your identity because it's
going to be more natural to you,it's kind of what I call
focused, relaxed energy.
You know you're going to beable to do things that maybe
seem very, very difficult toother people, but for you it's
actually not that hard and soit's congruent.
It's congruent Exactly, yeah,yeah.
(40:51):
And so I kind of want to trustthat.
And there's an act of surrenderto trusting the way that you've
been made.
And I think when we cansurrender and trust that and say
, okay, well, I am what I am andthere's other things I wish I
was, but I'm not.
But then I think a lot of theworld can experience you living
(41:11):
out of the overflow of who youare, because it affects them in
a positive way.
And so, yeah, I mean, justrecently, I remember listening
to Khabib I don't know if yougot you're an MMA guy, right,
this guy's 24 and 0, right,khabib, and I mean he's just a
beast, no one's even come close,right, habib, and I mean he's
just a beast, no one's even comeclose.
He beat Conor McGregor recentlyas well, and it was just like
(41:33):
nothing to him.
And I remember him talkingabout this Mexican MMA fighter
coming to Kazakhstan.
I think it is, and no, was itKazakhstan?
I can't remember what countryhe's from, but he was like yeah,
you know, normally we don'tallow people to come train with
us.
There's this group of about 20MMA fighters there.
They're all incredible.
They have like one loss betweenlike eight of them.
(41:54):
It's ridiculous.
And so they somehow allowedthis one Mexican fighter to come
train with them.
And Mexican fighter, after acouple months, was ready to tap
out and he was just like I don'tknow how you guys do this.
And he said, well, I'm going togo home for Christmas.
(42:15):
And all the guys were just likewhat?
What?
You want to go home forChristmas?
Like what do you?
We don't understand.
Like, no, there's a differencebetween discipline and sacrifice
.
There are some players thatneed discipline.
There are some business peoplewho need discipline and need to
sort of figure that piece out,and then there are other players
who need to learn how tosacrifice.
It's that illusion of choice,like I'm going to sacrifice
eating everything on the menufor the that, just a couple of
(42:38):
things, and and so I don't thinkone is better than the other.
I just think that one of themis the right remedy at the right
time, whether it's disciplineor sacrifice.
And yeah, I think there's allsorts of ways to frame it Like
what do you want more?
Or you know, I mean there's alot of different ways to frame
it Like what's the trade-off?
(42:59):
Are you willing to do thetrade-off or not?
But I think, ultimately, if wecan move and live and decide who
we want to be and what we wantto do out of our identity, it's
probably a more stable, cleanburning fuel.
Jay Johnson (43:11):
It makes a lot of sense.
I mean, even somebody likeCharles Dewey talks about.
You know, if you want to changeyour behavior, identify with it
.
So instead of being somebody I,you know, I want to eat healthy
.
I am a person who eats healthy.
I want to exercise, I amsomeone who exercises every day,
and then that congruence of thebehavior really kind of goes.
(43:33):
So I think there's a lot ofwisdom in what you just said,
Gary.
This has been an incredibleconversation.
I'm sure that we could talk forhours here.
If the audience wanted to getin touch with you, how might
they be able to reach you?
Gary Chupik (43:45):
Yeah, well, primarily most of my clients are
on Instagram.
You know whether they'recoaches or business people.
So Instagram at Elite Mindsetand I'm the guy with the blue
dot so you can look for thatverified dot.
I'm also on LinkedIn and peoplecan Google me and find me all
over on Google, but primarilyInstagram is probably the number
one place.
Jay Johnson (44:04):
Gary, this has been an incredibly insightful
conversation and I know that theaudience, whoever they're
coaching, whoever they'retraining, whoever they're
representing in the HR function,they're dealing with mindsets
and they're dealing withmindsets that are all over.
They're dealing with identity,they're dealing with motivation,
they're dealing with discipline, routines, rhythms and all of
that.
There's so much great ideas,thoughts and tactics that came
(44:28):
from this conversation.
I just want to say thank youfor being here with us on the
Talent Forge today.
Gary Chupik (44:32):
Yeah, thank you for having me, and if I could give
a free gift to your listeners, Iwould love to do that.
So, I created a mentalperformance assessment.
I think it's the most thoroughassessment on the internet.
I don't say that lightly.
As a salesperson.
I actually know that it's themost thorough mental performance
assessment on the internetbecause I studied this stuff and
I'm nerd out about that kind ofstuff.
So it'sEliteMindsetAssessmentcom and
(44:55):
for your audience I'd love togive a free gift.
So if they type in ELITE withall capitals and the number 100,
they can take it for free.
It's anywhere between a $30 and$150 value and they can take it
for free.
So EL 100 and and that's.
They can figure out where youknow where the growth areas in
their mindset are and where theareas that are doing really well
(45:16):
.
Jay Johnson (45:17):
That's incredibly kind, gary, thank you.
So, audience, you heard thatall caps elite 100, go check it
out.
We'll make sure that that linkis in the show notes so that way
you can find it there.
We won't put the code in there,so it's only if you're
listening.
We want to get you out there.
But go give it a shot, let's.
Let's learn about our.
You know I am an assessmentsperson.
I've not taken it, but Iguarantee you I'm going to check
(45:39):
it out, gary.
So again, thank you for thekind offer and for being here
today.
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