June 27, 2025 • 51 mins
Have you ever achieved success but felt empty inside? Kyle McDowell's journey from corporate executive to leadership visionary offers a roadmap for anyone feeling disconnected in their professional life.
After spending decades climbing the corporate ladder, managing 30,000 employees, and multi-billion dollar P&Ls, Kyle found himself in a state of profound apathy. The turning point came with a shocking realization: what he had perceived as respect from his team was actually fear. This revelation sparked a transformational journey that would not only reshape his career but his entire approach to life.
For anyone responsible for developing talent or building organizational culture, Kyle's experience offers a powerful lesson: meaningful change doesn't come from lofty mission statements that look good on office walls. It comes from establishing simple, actionable principles that guide behavior, foster connection, and become part of everyday language. When we create environments where people truly connect with one another, results naturally follow.
Ready to transform your approach to leadership and workplace culture? Explore Kyle's bestselling book "Begin With We" and discover how starting with connection might be the key to unlocking both professional excellence and personal fulfillment. Connect with Kyle: https://kylemcdowellinc.com/
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today we have a really specialguest, kyle McDowell, and I want
to say welcome to the show,kyle.
Kyle McDowell (00:12):
Jay man, it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Jay Johnson (00:15):
Yeah, kyle.
Okay.
So, looking at your background,you have some amazing
experiences in everything fromyour speaking to your corporate
experience.
I'd love for the audience toget to know you just a little
bit.
Tell me your story.
How did you get into this kindof speaking, talent development,
workforce development, space.
Kyle McDowell (00:34):
Well, it was never the plan, so I would
venture to guess so often, sooften.
Jay Johnson (00:39):
Yeah, right, love it, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (00:42):
No surprise.
Right, we're out of the gatewith no surprises, man.
So I began my career I think sono differently than probably
every member of your audienceand that is a lot of optimism.
I brought a lot of energy andexcitement.
I was an eager beaver and Iwanted to take on as much as
possible and kind of grow andhave an impact.
I wanted to find fulfillmentand have an impact and I wanted
(01:05):
to do big things, and I stillremember that very first cubicle
I started at in a regional bank, and it's been about 30 years
ago.
I plotted my path throughcorporate America, like many of
us, and found myself in biggerand bigger roles and
responsibilities.
Know, ultimately, beforeexiting the corporate world in
2019 to write my book, I ledcollectively about 30,000
(01:30):
employees.
In my last two roles, I hadmulti-billion dollar P&Ls for
which I was responsible.
But for me, I think that iskind of superficial stuff,
because I think all of us setout to do.
We want to do big things, wewant to have an impact, we want
to, we want to find fulfillmentand, uh, I didn't have any of
(01:50):
those things.
The first 20 or so years of mycareer.
I had a lot of accomplishments,I checked a lot of boxes and,
from the outside, looking in,appeared to be some guy who, who
was, you know, reasonablysuccessful and had achieved a
lot of his goals, but what Ifelt inside was apathy.
It was probably around year 22,.
Maybe that I sensed so muchapathy and this overwhelming
(02:15):
question of is there a betterway?
That I had to look in themirror.
I had to do some really deep,deep self-reflection and that's
what kind of fueled what I'm nowcalling the second chapter of
my career, and I left corporateAmerica in 2019 to write my book
Begin With we.
It became a USA Today and WallStreet Journal bestseller, and
you mentioned my speaking, sonow that's most of my activity
(02:38):
is in.
My work is around speaking atlarge conferences or even
organizations to help them kindof not make the same mistakes
that I made, and use theseprinciples that I created and
that are the foundation for thebook to help create what I
coined as a culture ofexcellence, where there's a
strong sense of we.
We actually lean into eachother, we take care of each
(02:59):
other.
We we actually give a about oneanother, and it's a lot more
about relationships andconnection than it is results,
because if you have the former,the latter is going to come, and
that's what I found.
Jay Johnson (03:10):
Oh, I'm loving this , Okay.
So let me let me dig in and acouple of things here is.
First of all, you got out ofcorporate when getting was good
in 2019.
It was almost.
Maybe you had that predictivecapacity of like maybe I should
get out of here, but that'sawesome.
So here's my question.
You know, as somebody with mybehavioral science background, I
(03:32):
study emotions a lot.
Apathy is one of those emotionsthat I think a lot of people
have a very difficult timegrasping, and they may be,
because when we feel apathy, itcan lead to a number of things
it can lead to us feeling anger,it can lead to us feeling
frustrated, it can lead toburnout, it can lead to a number
of things, but and it can alsobe the inverse of that that all
(03:54):
of those can lead to apathy.
So here's my question for you,Kyle what was it that sort of
gave you an indication Like thisis apathy, this is I'm not
feeling fulfilled, I'm not, Idon't care, and obviously that's
not something that you wantedto be, but what was it that was
the signal to you?
That was like yeah, I'm in anapathetic state at the moment.
Kyle McDowell (04:17):
Yeah, man, where to begin?
For me, there were a couple ofthings that I just couldn't
avoid.
The first was my marriage.
My marriage was on the brink ofa divorce that ultimately came
to be, and certainly my workplayed a huge role in that
downfall.
I was on the road three, fournights a week for about a dozen
(04:39):
years and my work became myidentity and my work became my
identity.
I was the same, I carried thesame being for lack of a maybe
more scientific expressioninside and outside of work, and
everything I did was connectedto my work always on call,
always, and that was kind of thenature of the work that I did.
(05:00):
I was an operations guy.
We ran 24 hour operationsaround the globe, so you know,
that kind of comes with theterritory.
But when I realized the impactit was having on my personal
life not just my marriage, myrelationships with with other
loved ones were, were all beingcompromised.
My health was not good.
I didn't, I didn't, wasn't inshape, I didn't, I didn't.
There was always somethingwrong.
(05:23):
And one day I used to trainwith this guy and he said man, I
think stress is what's drivingyour illnesses, your aches, your
pains.
I think your back is largelyrelated to your stress.
And I said man, you're nuts,you're crazy, and it turned out
to be so.
And I tell you, jay, what isthe biggest gut punch of all is
(05:44):
when you become apathetic aboutthe very environments that you
created.
That's a wet blanket.
That really was an eye openerfor me.
So I started to ask a lot ofquestions like is there a better
way?
Am I the only one that feelsthis way?
And what iced it for me?
When you asked about the thingsthat put me in that position, I
think, ultimately, thesequestions forced me to ask my
(06:04):
conf.
You know the, the things thatput me in that position.
I think, ultimately, thesequestions forced me to ask my
confidants, people that I reallytrusted, those that have been
with me from multiple with atmultiple organizations.
I had surrounded myself byfolks that I really trusted and
and it turned out, what Ithought was respect was actually
fear.
They feared me.
And you know if you, if you,care at all about your brand and
(06:25):
your reputation and how peoplethink about you and what they
say about you at the dinnertable, cause, let's be honest,
if you're in any, any type ofposition of authority, and
oftentimes even not those thatyou work with they're talking
about you at the dinner table.
They're.
They're telling theirsignificant other what a jerk
you were that day.
Yeah, my boss, oh gosh yeah yeah, and it occurred to me when I
(06:47):
realized respect was not what Iwas feeling and it was more fear
, and one person even told methat directly.
That's when I started to playout kind of a legacy
conversation with myself.
It's like, dude, you've beendoing this 20 something years.
You've checked a lot of boxes.
You've you've accomplishedprobably more than you've ever
(07:08):
dreamt you would probably makingmore than you ever thought you
would.
Is this all there is?
Is there, is there?
Are you meant for more?
Is there something else intofuel?
And that's that.
That's what it compelled me toleave corporate america.
I was going to sit on the benchfor a little while while I
figured things out, uh, and workthrough my marriage which, as I
(07:30):
mentioned, didn't work out, andI made a promise to myself,
after all of these questions andanswers, that if I were to go
back into that fray, I wouldapproach it very, very
differently.
I didn't know what that meant.
I just knew needed, I needed adifferent recipe, because the
recipe I had I knew in and out,backwards and forward, and it
drove great results, but it alsodrove um the apathy.
(07:52):
And it drove it lackedconnection.
I didn't really connect withpeople the way that I could have
, or should have, didn't havethe impact I could ever should
have, and I just didn't want toend my career that way.
So I stepped away, and it onlylasted about 11 days.
I got a phone call asking wouldI be interested to take on a
role that was in need of a bitof a cultural transformation,
(08:12):
had about 15,000 employees, itwas a $7 billion program and it
was obvious to me very, veryearly on in the interview
process that this was what youwere asking for.
Are you really going to be thatguy?
Are you going to be the personthat whines about it, or are you
going to actually take whatyou've learned, hang on to some
of those good aspects and find adifferent way to have a
(08:34):
different set of outcomes thatleave you connected and a legacy
that you can be proud of.
I love that.
Yeah, man, I took the role andI guess the rest worked out
because it was that organization, where I created these
principles that have changed mylife, that compelled me to write
the book.
They're still in practice atthat organization.
I've deployed them at multipleorganizations since then.
(08:55):
It's just, but I have to sayall of that started with the
apathy that drove theself-reflection that caused me
to really test myself.
Are you going to keep your headdown and keep plugging along
like you did the last 20 years,like so many of us do, or are
you going to try to do somethingdifferent?
And I rolled those dice andit's worked out so far.
Jay Johnson (09:15):
I love it.
So let me and I want to getinto the connection, the culture
and your approach.
Before I go there, though Ithink it's important because and
you said it and I think it'sreally important to highlight
there's a lot of people that areprobably feeling that apathy,
that experience right now intheir workplace.
(09:35):
And for our audience who's, youknow, in the HR, talent
development, even managementroles, you know they have to
train them, they have to inspirethem.
They have to train them, theyhave to inspire them, they have
to engage them, they have tomotivate them.
And you know we'll probably diginto this deeper as we get into
the questions on connection oranything else.
But I want you to go back.
If you were you and thank youfor sharing that story and your
(09:59):
experiences vulnerably andopenly, appreciate that a lot.
If you were you back in thattime and somebody was putting
you into a training program andyou were the audience in that
training program, is theresomething that maybe would have
landed for you?
Is there something thatsomebody could have done that
would have maybe snapped you outof it for a minute?
(10:19):
Because when we're in thatapathetic state or when we're in
the you know, forget all thisand this doesn't matter, and not
feeling like in tune withourselves.
We tend to shut off learning.
We tend to shut off, you know,we tend to be cynical about
everything.
Oh great, another trainingexperience.
There's a lot of people thatare experiencing that right now
and I know that there's a lot oftrainers and coaches dealing
(10:41):
with that in the audience.
What might have aligned withyou, what would have landed with
you, what would have got yourattention if you were to go back
to that space and imagineyourself in the audience?
Kyle McDowell (10:55):
Jay, that is believe it or not.
That's a question I think abouta lot Because, if I'm being
completely transparent andhonest with you, if someone were
to have handed me my book in mytwenties, I wouldn't have read
it.
Yeah, just being honest, Iwouldn't have read it.
There's a lot of things.
Jay Johnson (11:13):
There's a lot of things that now Jay Johnson
would look back at Jay Johnsonand be like if you would only
listen to this that's the rub.
Kyle McDowell (11:21):
That's the rub.
That's the rub in my businesstoday is, is, is, and I can't
convince people.
I can just share experiencesand stories.
But if I were able to convincepeople, it would be to convince
them that there is a better way.
There is a better way.
I the reason why so?
To answer your questiondirectly.
(11:41):
Is there something that wouldhave resonated or kind of kind
of snapped me into gear?
The short answer is no.
I'm not proud of that answer,but it's the truth.
And it's no because I was aproduct of my environment.
I led in a way that I sawothers lead and that, in those
days, was a very differentapproach to leadership.
Today, I'm happy to say that.
But it there's this cycle thathappens in almost every
(12:03):
organization and I'll boil itdown to the most simplest of
scenarios.
It's, let's just say, I'm on ateam of 10 and my boss gets
promoted, and now my boss isresponsible for choosing their
backfill.
So I apply, I go through theinterview process.
There's something inherentinside of us that says I need to
(12:26):
endear myself to this personmaking this hiring decision.
Well, what's the best way to dothat?
Well, I should behave similar tothem.
So I'm going to start to takeon the same characteristics and
leadership traits that I loathedin them, because I think it
will endear me to them to get methis job.
And if it works, what do youthink I'm going to do next?
The same bad behavior?
I'm going to continue to.
So that's what I did, and therewere a couple of leaders I
(12:49):
should call them bossesthroughout my kind of growth and
kind of coming up in thecorporate world that I'm very
grateful for having worked with,but I'm not grateful for the
leadership style that they Idon't want to say instilled,
because that implies that I hadno responsibility in it.
I had responsibility in it,clearly, but, um, I'm grateful
(13:09):
for those opportunities andworking with them, because it
taught me how to get stuff done,but it didn't tell me.
It didn't tell me or show methe way to get it done.
That inspired people to want todo it, to continue to want to
do it, to reach for more, to dobetter, to not settle.
So that's, you know, the shortanswer is no, and the rub for me
(13:31):
today, in my work today, istrying to get people to
understand that the way that yousee things today doesn't
necessarily mean it's the waythat it has to be forever.
It requires making a choice, itrequires some self-reflection,
it requires doing things thatyou may not have been
comfortable doing historicallyand for me, I was not open to
those things because, as Imentioned, I was quote unquote
successful.
(13:51):
I was, at every 18 months, 24months, I would find myself in
bigger and bigger roles.
So why change that recipe?
It's hard to refute that untilthe benefit of age and wisdom
benefit of age and wisdom Um, Ihave a lot of age and a little
bit of wisdom to say thatthere's a better way, and I've,
you know, I I think, if we'regoing to work as much as we all
(14:13):
work, it needs to be the mostimpactful work we can make and
have.
Jay Johnson (14:16):
Yeah, you know, when you're talking about that
driver or that, that measure ofsuccess and the way that we end
up measuring success in a lot oforganizations is bottom line or
promotion or quote unquotewinning.
And a lot of the work that I dois on our biological drives and
while that satisfies our driveto acquire, it misses out on a
(14:39):
lot of other things such as ourdrive to learn, our drive to
bond and our drive to defend,and I think that's where we're
going.
Next is the drive to connectand bond with each other.
So it seems to me and correctme if I'm speaking out of turn
it seems to me that as you wentthrough this stage of sort of
navigating how you're feeling inthis environment, how you're
(15:03):
feeling about yourself, howyou're feeling about your role
and not feeling fulfilled itseems to me that it was almost a
longing for deeper connectionand or relationships with people
.
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Kyle McDowell (15:18):
First of all, the premise of the question is so
enlightening to me because youessentially described me.
I checked those boxes and wasnot able to connect those that
you closed with the question.
You know with the connectionand you know how it makes me
feel.
By the way, you wouldn't catchme having a conversation about
(15:42):
feelings.
Jay Johnson (15:43):
Sure.
Kyle McDowell (15:43):
The first dozen or two decades.
Jay Johnson (15:47):
Kyle, I'm a former junior hockey player and mixed
martial artist, a competitivedebater and excessively driven
to win.
I feel you and I've had tolearn the other side to feel
more connected.
Kyle McDowell (16:02):
Okay, so let me turn it back to you.
Was that a conscious shift foryou?
Was there an epiphany?
Was there a moment that yousaid this ain't it, I've got to.
I need to find a different path.
Jay Johnson (16:12):
Yeah, it really was , and I'm I'm I'm almost betting
that we're very similar on this.
For me, research was about mesearch.
I was trying to figure out whydo I keep finding myself in the
same positions, making the samebad decisions, doing the same
things, alienating people, andso on and so forth.
So when I say I empathize, Iauthentically, in this case,
(16:38):
recognize and see a lot of that,and that's why I really
appreciate you being able tokind of communicate this,
because this is something that Ifind to be really valuable.
Uh, the turning point is onebad decision where it was just
like what am I doing?
Why do I keep doing?
Kyle McDowell (16:53):
this bad, how bad , how, jay what's that bad how?
Jay Johnson (16:57):
usually was yeah, usually it was the destruction
of some kind of relationship,and not I don't mean like
partners, I don't mean like aspousal or anything else like
that, I mean like businessrelationship, friend
relationship, colleague,coworker or whatever else.
And it was just like and partof it was is my drive to win.
It was win at the cost ofpretty much anything.
(17:20):
That really served me well whenI was in hockey, it really
served me well when I was inmixed martial arts, but it
wasn't serving me well in myhappiness or my gratitude for
life or the relationships that Iwas building around me.
Kyle McDowell (17:33):
What do you think you missed out on as a result?
Jay Johnson (17:36):
You know it's interesting.
I don't, I will say, and I wantto.
I want to pose that question toyou too, because I find it to
be a really interesting question.
I believe that every singlething that I had gone through,
every experience, has led me tokind of break through to where
I'm at today, and I think that,absent those experiences, I
(17:56):
might still be doing the samething.
So I don't want to.
I don't particularly look at itas what did I miss out on?
Uh, when I was in that positionand when I started to make that
decision to study behavioralscience, it was what am I
missing out on in the future?
And it really was a futureforward of how can I fix this in
moving forward, I didn't reallylook back as much, don't get me
(18:18):
wrong.
I reflected on the patterns ofbehaviors, but it wasn't a
question of, okay, I'm going tolament and regret and do all of
these other things for a historythat is lost.
It was much more about hey, I'ma young enough person that I
can figure this out.
I feel like I'm smart enough, Ifeel like I've got enough
energy to do so.
What does my future look like?
(18:39):
And that's really right.
Do you feel like, from yourperspective, do you feel like
there was things that weremissed, or is it, you know, was
it something that wasmotivational behind that for you
?
Kyle McDowell (18:49):
Clearly, for me, the thing missed was connection,
and I don't mean to speak innebular terms.
Here's what I mean.
On one hand, I can count thenumber of connections people
that I would.
I can pick up the phone rightnow and call and say, hey, I
want to bounce an idea off you.
On one hand, or less than onehand, I could count the number
(19:11):
of people that would fit thatcategory from the first 20 years
of my career.
The last decade, I still haveone-on-ones with people I
haven't worked with in five, six, seven years.
Jay Johnson (19:22):
That's awesome.
Kyle McDowell (19:23):
Right and I I think it illustrates the point
of what I missed out on, andthat is those connections that
are not just means to an end,they're genuine bonds.
I genuinely care about you andyour success and how I might be
able to help that, and in turn,I hope that you might have some
(19:45):
nuggets of wisdom to drop on meoccasionally, or at least tell
me that I'm full of it, someoneI can call and say, kyle,
they'll break it down for me.
So connection, I think, is theprimary loss for me.
Um, because you know, I'm still, I'm still able to deliver, um,
I think, incredibly strongresults.
(20:05):
It's just, it's just how I get.
There is a very, very differentapproach than than years past.
Jay Johnson (20:11):
Okay Now, and that makes sense, I think you know,
from the connection side, I'mvery fortunate that I have had
people who have been with mefrom early on and continued on
my journey.
Um, partially because in myefforts to win I also do have
sort of an undying and this iswhat I've had to more cultivate
(20:35):
an undying loyalty to team, andI'm going to credit my hockey
days for that.
It's like nope, team first,I'll step back or whatever else,
as long as we're winning.
So I had that and Idemonstrated that loyalty, but
not without impact sometimes oflike hey, I was a tyrant in some
(20:56):
cases.
You know I was a.
Why are you not working 16hours a day?
I can work 16 hours a day, whatthe hell's wrong with you?
And in sort of that, in sort ofthat experience, I found myself
just being angry and frustratedand damaging some of that trust
and things like that.
But it was always one of thosewhere they knew I had their back
but I could still be a realasshole.
Kyle McDowell (21:18):
If that makes sense, yeah, absolutely, well
said.
Jay Johnson (21:21):
Yeah, let's talk about connection.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Kyle McDowell (21:25):
Well, I'm just going to say the similarities
and the way that you express youknow your path, uh, that they
are.
There's a strong overlap thereand I don't at all claim myself
or proclaim to be any type ofbehavioral expert.
The way that you are so hearingyou describe it and the way you
articulate it is very differentthan the way I would have, but
(21:47):
it resonates in such a way thatI see the overlap.
It's really, I think it'sreally powerful, so I'm grateful
.
Jay Johnson (21:56):
I'm grateful for you breaking it down that way,
sincerely.
I'm I'm grateful to have afriend that's experienced some
of the things.
It's amazing.
So, all right, let's talk aboutconnection, because you've
created systems and obviouslyinstalled that when you had
taken that role, you know, 11days after you had left
corporate to really kind ofcreate connection, meaning and
impact, and have even written abook about it, which I'm always
impressed with any author.
(22:16):
I've been writing a book for 10years and I'm still on page
whatever, but that's a journeyfor another story.
But you took this sort ofinternal desire, maybe this lack
, maybe this gap, and you turnedit into something beautiful.
That's helped, you know,organization shift.
(22:37):
Let's talk about that.
What in that hunt forconnection?
What did that look like for you?
Kyle McDowell (22:45):
For me it was a, it was a genuine epiphany.
So I took the role and Iallowed 30, maybe 60 days to
elapse and, you know, I I was atleast aware enough to know that
I needed this team more thanthey needed me.
For some context, the fellowthat had the role before me, I
think, was dismissed and believethe woman before him might've
(23:09):
also been let go.
So they had seen people comeand go in this role and it's
probably worth noting my directreports.
They had an average tenure ofabout 12 years, so they had
forgotten more about their rolesthan I knew because I was new.
But it was clear to me alsothat of my seven or eight I
don't know six, seven, eightdirect reports who managed
(23:30):
really large functions hundreds,if not thousands, of people
there was not, there was not areal sense of team, not that
they didn't care about eachother, but it was.
If one group was winning andthe other group was, another
group was not quote, unquotewinning.
The winning side, the winningteam did not wreck.
Recognize that on the macro, wewere not winning.
(23:52):
If, if, if, a group inside ofthis team is not winning, then
we're not winning as a group.
So, yeah, right, exactly, um,so it was probably uh, 45, 60
days into the role.
I asked for the top 45 or 60leaders of this 15,000 person
organization to come togetherand it would be my chance to
(24:13):
kind of share my expectations ofthe team.
But I also wanted to be reallyclear.
These would be theirexpectations of me, which is an
approach that I had neverconsidered.
My ego wouldn't allow me totake that approach.
So, jay, the night before I wasto be on stage in front of this
group of leaders, I wasfreaking terrified.
I was in my hotel room.
I had no idea what I was goingto say.
I just knew the recipe of oldwas not the recipe I wanted to
(24:38):
bring to this organization,because I took the role
understanding that I could leadin a different way and I was
asked to lead a transformation.
So it was probably aroundmidnight that night that I'd
started.
We had a dinner earlier in theevening and I was still wearing
that day suit.
I had my laptop open.
I said I got to put some slidestogether and this epiphany that
(25:00):
hit me was this is your chance.
You're leading a massiveorganization If you want to have
the impact that you brought,the desire to have an impact
that you brought with you 30years ago or 20 something years
ago.
Now's the time to have animpact that you brought with you
30 years ago or 20 somethingyears ago.
Now's the time.
You've gotten the green light.
You've been told this is inneed, but how are you going to
do it?
So then I just started to replayboth really positive scenarios,
(25:22):
but also those scenarios thatleft me feeling less than whole
feeling, as if I was just kindof a means to an end or I was a
transaction for my boss.
Boss is, and I'm not a supercreative person, so I just
started typing in.
An hour or two elapsed and I'mstaring at my laptop with 10
sentences, that's it, and eachof them uh at the time, and
(25:44):
still do begin with the word we,and these were going to be.
I called them our, our, ourguiding principles.
I didn't, I didn't have 10sentences that began with we, so
I called them the 10 we's.
These are our guidingprinciples.
I didn't even know what thedefinition of a principle
technically was, but I sharedthem with the team the next
morning and I opened up with Idon't care what our clients
think, I don't care aboutanything other than what's
(26:07):
happening behind this curtain,because it was obvious to me
that this organization does areally fine job of of orienting
the new hire into the fold right.
Here's your job, here's whatyou do here, the X's and O's,
the SOPs like here's, here's.
You know, this goes before thatvery, very um, I thought
sophisticated on the trainingand learning side of things, but
(26:30):
there was not guidelines orexpectations, very clear
expectations set for behavior,how we treat one another behind
the curtain.
And I was convinced that if wecould be high functioning behind
the curtain and really, reallybe a team, lean into this
concept of we which hit me thenight before, the results would
come, but we would do it in away that recognizes each other's
contributions, we would carefor one another and we would
(26:51):
collectively win, not justindividual silos.
And it worked.
I shared the 10 wheeze the nextmorning and fast forward a
handful of years later.
Those principles they've madetheir way into that company's
performance evaluations.
They had the 10 wheeze awards,they created all kinds of swag.
I still wear my 10 wheezebracelet from many, many, many,
(27:13):
many years ago.
Um, and what ha?
And I think the reason why ittook off so quickly there is.
There was a recognition that weknow our business, we're really
good at the fundamentals of ourbusiness, but no one's ever
said, hey, we're going to pickeach other up, we're going to
own our mistakes, we're going tosay what we're going to do and
then we do it.
(27:34):
These 10 principles.
No one has ever been thatexplicit.
We've got these values on awall that no one can recite, but
no one has been explicit enoughto say, first of all hey, boss,
this is how we're going to holdyou accountable.
And I remember like it wasyesterday.
I literally said if you guyssee me behaving contrary to any
one of these principles, I wantyou to grab me by the ear and
say dude, you're being ahypocrite.
(27:55):
I said it just like that.
Some did, some didn't.
But that was the beginning of avery different leadership
approach for me and, by the way,parenthetically.
Five years later there weremembers of that team that
reached out to me.
I was with another firm alreadythat reached out to say when's
your book coming?
And I said I'm not writing abook.
(28:17):
What are you talking about?
I'm not an author.
He said okay, you're the guythat said this is who you are.
You changed this $7 billionprogram.
Do you have something more inyou?
Is there more for you?
They thought that they thoughtI had more in me, and it was
that reason why I started towrite the book, because other
people had changed theirexistence in terms of their
(28:37):
ability to be a good teammate, agood leader.
But then I started to hearstories about how it was
changing, how they behaveoutside of work, and I thought
this is, this is where I have togo, and now it's my purpose to
continue to evangelize theseprinciples the 10 wheeze.
Jay Johnson (28:53):
We're going to get into that.
But I want to go back tosomething that you said and
thank you for sharing that.
What I'm looking at here is I'mimagining Kyle sitting in the
hotel room in the day before hisbusiness suit and you're
sitting there and you're lookingat blank page syndrome.
You're trying to hack out whatit is that you're going to talk
about, and I got to imagine thatsome level, some level of
(29:14):
temptation, starts to creep backin, because you're recently
fresh off of your other you know11 days or whatever it was from
your previous and on some levelthere had to be the temptation
of well, this worked really wellfor me 30 years ago.
How did you temper thattemptation?
(29:34):
Because a lot's on the line,lot at stake, and one of the
things that human beings tend todo when there is a high risk
calculation or anything else isgo back to whatever they've
survived on before.
I mean, that's a natural partof the way our brain is
constructed.
So you had to feel a little bitof that temptation.
What was the tipping point?
(29:55):
To say no, I'm not going to goback into that pattern of
behavior.
Kyle McDowell (30:00):
Love this question.
The tension or the potential ofsliding back into that approach
didn't happen immediately.
I would say half the room wasreally excited and optimistic.
I would say a quarter was kindof cautiously optimistic.
There was a quarter-ish thatwere obstinate.
(30:23):
They're just like this guy's,full of it.
It's never going to work.
Jay Johnson (30:25):
This is BS.
This is all emotions, this isall the things.
Kyle McDowell (30:29):
One guy accused me of plagiarizing.
He asked for my presentationbecause he wanted to check the
file properties to see if Icreated the PowerPoint.
I'm great buddies since then.
But yeah, he admitted to that.
The, the, the, the.
I was tempted to backslide andI think it's probably a fair way
of describing it.
It when my adoption of my ownprinciples was tested and there
(30:56):
was a scenario that I rememberlike it was yesterday.
So one of the principles wenumber eight is we challenge
each other.
The following principle is weembrace challenge.
My temptation to use mybusiness card instead of the
principles that I had documentedand subscribed to and and was
evangelizing, came when I waschallenged um a woman on the
(31:22):
team, um brilliant woman, whenyou say use your business card.
Jay Johnson (31:27):
I'm assuming and presuming that it's like no, I'm
the boss now, just get youryour ass, because I said so.
Right, yeah, right.
Because I said so Just wantedto make sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (31:35):
Yeah, because I said so.
This is not a democracy.
I'm the leader and this is thedecision I'm making, which is
not, you know, I wouldn't saytwo 300 people, ish and um, she
was responsible for all of ourcontract work, which is a really
big role.
She was, she's, a brilliantwoman.
(31:58):
Um, I was still learning.
I said, hey, um, julia, sheknows I tell this story.
Hey, julia, can you send me theX, y, z workbook Because I want
to dig into some of the Excelworkbooks.
I want to dig into some of theformulas because I'm a data nerd
.
If I can dive in and see howthis affects that, I would be
smarter for my little bit ofhomework.
And Julia sent me a screenshot.
(32:22):
Well, if you ever use Excel,you know a screenshot is not
super helpful because you can'tfollow references, you don't
know how things are calculated.
So I said, julia, maybe it wasa mistake.
Julia, can you just send me theworkbook please?
I need the whole workbook.
I want to check references,different tabs and so on.
She sends me a workbook now butit only has one tab in.
It Didn't have the other tabsthat were referencing data
elsewhere.
And this is the point that I'veso vividly recall saying all
(32:43):
right, dude, your principles areone thing, the standards that
you've established are one thing, but now you've got someone
who's, for whatever reason, andI think this moment, this
scenario, had such an outsizedimpact on my and unexpected
impact on my ability for theseprinciples to take hold.
(33:06):
Because, as you know, I wasbeing watched and am I the guy
evangelizing these principlesand kind of preaching them but
not living them, creating thisleadership gap which I have seen
all too many times, We've allseen all too many times, and I'm
just one of those guys at thispoint.
Or am I gonna take my ownmedicine?
For whatever reason, I took myown medicine and I just
(33:29):
continued to kind of coddle insome ways.
Julia, please, this is what Ineed.
I didn't react the way I wantedto.
I think it's worth sharing.
She, please, this is what Ineed.
Didn't react the way I wantedto.
I think it's worth sharing.
She is one of those people thatI still have regular
one-on-ones with, multiple yearslater, although at the time and
she'll say this out loud we didnot see eye to eye, we didn't,
we didn't like each other, butnow she's one of my closest
confidants that I just cherishthat relationship.
(33:52):
But that was the, that was thesentinel moment.
I realized you can't just talkabout it.
As a matter of fact, nobodycares what you say.
They're watching you, they carehow you act, they'll follow
your behavior, not what you say.
And that was a.
That was a real pivotal momentin my journey, cause I used to
lead with ego and now I wasleading with a more kind of
empathetic approach.
(34:13):
Why was she challenging me inthe way that she was?
Why was she being difficult?
Well, because she had beenburned by people in my position
previously.
I came to find so.
So that was the biggest momentfor me, and there are certainly
other instances, probably lessimpactful, that I learned to.
To respond rather than react isprobably the best way I would
describe it.
Jay Johnson (34:33):
I love how you framed that, because we've and
every single human being goesthrough this process of where we
have a thought, we have afeeling and we have a choice to
make, and that's literally froma behavioral.
That's why I studied behaviorand not something else was my
core philosophy is our behavioris the only choice that we have.
(34:54):
You're going to have feelings,You're going to have thoughts,
more than likely.
In that moment, Julia wasobstinate and there was that
sort of thought process of likewhy is this person doing this?
or you know, and all of thoseother feelings that come with it
frustration, anger, et cetera.
But you made a choice and it'sin those choices that drives our
(35:15):
success and failure.
And I love that the 10 wheezeare the sort of guiding North
Star light to how you're makingchoices.
So I don't want to pay lipservice to them, but I know that
we don't have that much time tomaybe go through all of them,
so I'm going to encourage ouraudience to buy your book.
Take a look at it, but let'stalk about it.
So this connection piece, thisstarting with we not even
(35:38):
necessarily with why, butstarting with we we're all in
this together.
What is you know?
As you navigated theseprinciples?
What are some of the thingsthat you started to see in terms
of outcomes when people said,hey, we got to this, we space.
What did you see in thatorganizational shift?
Kyle McDowell (35:58):
Yeah, so the first thing.
So I have to admit, the firstseveral months after introducing
them, there was a fair amountof fear that I was being
pandered to.
Like you know, the more senioryou are, the funnier your jokes
somehow are, the more timepeople want to spend, right?
That's just how it works.
(36:19):
So I was a little concerned.
There was some brown nosingfrankly going on, so I didn't
push them and I told the team.
I said I don't care if these 10become 11 or become 8 or 7, but
this is what you can expectfrom me.
I hope you follow along with meand we all adopt these
principles.
This is the standard that I'mgonna hold myself accountable to
(36:40):
and I'm going to.
I'm going to hold you similarly, but you don't have to
subscribe to them.
Just know that these are thethings.
These are our standards.
Um, I would.
I started to see signage pop up.
So we had lots of locationsaround the country.
I started to see signage thatwas, again, not quite convinced
it wasn't pandering to the newguy but where it really became
palpable and profound and I'lluse the same example of we
(37:03):
number eight.
We challenge each other is staffmeetings, which are
historically in mostorganizations, most environments
, they're readouts.
The boss is at the end of thetable.
We go around the table peoplegiving their KPI updates or
whatever's going on in theirworld, we break, we move on.
Well, when you say thatchallenge is not an option, it's
an obligation, but it has to bedone diplomatically and it
(37:25):
needs to have an element of dataor experience.
That's the rule.
It's not your opinion.
My staff meeting started toturn into conversations where
Lori would be on one end of thetable and she would go through
her readout.
Julia would hear something thatdidn't quite pass her sniff
test because she's been with theorganization a long time, she
knows people, that knows peopleand that know people and she's
(37:46):
she knows this business.
So now she's obligated to saywell, hang on a second.
Lori, in a meeting yesterday,so-and-so, said this or you
picked the scenario.
But my point is is we haveconversations now.
It's not just readouts and whatI would do occasionally.
So in an organization this size, you have to pick your battles,
you have to pick where youspend your time and hopefully
(38:08):
you pick the right paths, theright avenues.
But there were times, admittedly, I would dial in to a call.
This is way before COVID.
So video wasn't as prominent,it's almost all voice.
You know teleconference Um, Iwould dial in and not announce
myself.
And what was so heartwarming andreally profound and that's when
I knew the brown nosing wasless of a thing and it was more
(38:29):
authentic was I would hearpeople say, well, listen, hey,
we challenge each other, right.
And then they would bring up acontrary point and and someone
would say, well, yeah, well, weembrace challenge.
Or hey, we do the right thing.
So before we land on an answeror a solution here, the problem
we're trying to solve, let's notforget we do the right thing,
right, guys.
So I would hear it played backin vernacular and it became part
(38:51):
of our DNA man, and it wassomething that you couldn't go
more than probably 20 minutes inany meeting without someone
interjecting one of theprinciples as kind of our true
North Star this is how we'regoing to behave, because we've
all subscribed to that.
So for me, seeing it was onething, but hearing it,
especially when I wasn't in theroom technically, was probably
the most impactful moment whereI realized something bigger than
(39:13):
me is happening here and we gotto embrace this.
Jay Johnson (39:16):
Well, and I think one of the things that it seems
to me and again without havingbeen there, but it seems to me
one of the things that you didwas you normalized a language
around a value system and astructured value system, that
North Star, because I thinkthat's where a lot of
organizations fail in developingtheir cultures.
They have these high levelvalues purpose meaning that
(39:39):
literally does not translateinto a short slogan of we
embrace challenge that I canremember.
I can't remember what it is.
If it's just like we organizeourselves so that way, we bring
innovation at every turn and dothis in order to facilitate the
best customer relation who givesus.
(39:59):
We embrace it right so it soundsto me like you really developed
a language that was around youyou you had mentioned.
It became a part of thevernacular.
But when we do that, that'sreally what cements it.
If I can communicate it, thenit's real.
If I can't explain it, whatdoes that mean?
Kyle McDowell (40:17):
Man, again you.
You have described my work in away better than I do.
You're right, I've never lookedat it as normalizing dialogue
or normalizing our communication, but that's exactly what
happened and your connection toso.
I worked for a company thatI'll leave the name of the
company out.
The mission statement washelping consumers on their paths
(40:39):
to better health Beautiful.
No one's going to disagree thatI want to be a part of that.
Clean, perfect, right.
Except it doesn't compel me towork a bit harder.
It doesn't compel me to workany more collaboratively.
It doesn't compel me to focuson outcomes over activity.
That's what the principles do.
They enable those loftystatements, most of which people
(41:02):
cannot even recite.
They enable them in a way thatis actionable and it's a
currency, almost.
It's a currency that, no matterif you're the newest intern or
the most tenured leader on theprogram, you have the ability
not just the ability.
You're obligated to spend thatcurrency.
And your observation is spot on.
(41:26):
It created normal words andphrases and dialogue that you
wouldn't have heard otherwise,because we made the choice to
use them as part of our being,of who we are.
Jay Johnson (41:31):
That was kind of you to say.
It's something that I'vebelieved for a long time and we
see it backed up by science.
If it's easy, people will do it.
If it's hard, they're going totry to find an easier pathway.
You made a very complex conceptof values and identity inside
(41:55):
of an organization, of valuesand identity inside of an
organization super easy,manageable and something that
everybody can say, hey, yeah,you know, if we all buy into
this 10 wheeze, that's going tocreate an environment that I'd
like to work in.
Kyle McDowell (42:08):
Yep, yep, yep.
But, jay, can I challengesomething you just said?
Man, sure, I would love to swapout your use of the word easy
for simple.
Jay Johnson (42:19):
Sure, I'll accept that.
Kyle McDowell (42:21):
Because I think I'm the first to admit the
principles are incredibly simple, but they're not easy because
of the conversation we just had.
Right, when things are good,man, it's easy to say, yeah, we
do the right thing.
We challenge each other.
That's easy when things aretough To live it is a different
question, they're still simple.
Jay Johnson (42:41):
Yep.
Kyle McDowell (42:42):
But it's not easy .
So that's you know.
That's the only thing I wouldsay.
I would not disagree, but justmaybe amend, if you're okay with
it 100%.
Jay Johnson (42:49):
I think that's a great amendment and probably
more in line with what I meantthan what I said.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, so, kyle, in the eventthat, in the event that let's
kind of fast forward and justfor a time sake here and I would
love to have you back, cause Ithink that there's a number of
things that I'd love to godeeper in Likewise Fast forward.
(43:13):
We've implemented this and Iwant to go back to the origin
story.
We've implemented this.
You said, eventually, you hadmoved on to a different firm,
etc.
How were you feeling?
Because there had to be somelevel of that gap that you
experienced when you were in thecorporate side of things to
where, all of a sudden, you'vemade this transition, you've
(43:33):
started to see thingsdifferently and now you've
emerged from the other side ofthe hero's journey, the story,
the whatever else You've comeout, changed.
How did that feel for you?
Kyle McDowell (43:46):
Changed my life, Jay.
Changed my life.
It started as a change,exclusively in my work world,
exclusively in my work world.
But then I realized so it's onething to say that these are the
standards that you holdyourself accountable to in the
workplace and it's another thingto say and if I don't live
(44:08):
these in front of you guys oryou see me behaving contrary to
them, call me a hypocrite.
But I wasn't.
For many years I was notcarrying those same standards
and principles to my personallife.
And there was an epiphanymoment there as well, where I
realized okay, you're not beinga hypocrite in the workplace,
but a hypocrite is still ahypocrite.
So if you're not committed todoing the right thing and it's a
(44:30):
silly example, but I caughtmyself leaving the shopping cart
in the parking spot next to meinstead of returning it to the
little corral thing or back tothe grocery store.
I'm pulling away and I see mygrocery cart in the rear view.
It's like a movie.
I'm pulling away and I can seethe grocery cart slowly rolling
backwards and I go, youhypocrite.
So I whipped my truck into aparking spot and took it back
(44:53):
and I've never left a grocerycart not where it belongs ever
since then and took it back andI've never left a grocery cart
not where it belongs ever sincethen.
But the change, my life part,comes when I realize when we set
our, when we set a series ofstandards, I don't care if it's
one.
Ideally it's more than that.
But as a human being, when weset our, when we set a series of
standards that we're going tohold ourselves accountable to,
we're going to, we'll stumble,we won't get it right all the
(45:14):
time, but how do you ever, howdo you achieve, how do you reach
goals?
How, how are you exceptional inanything without establishing
the standards of your behaviorthat are required to achieve
that excellence?
It's almost, it's.
It's almost nonsensical to me,but I never looked at it that
way.
My work Kyle and the out ofwork Kyle were two different
(45:35):
beings.
I just happened to spend a lotmore time on the work side, so
it was a predominant characterthat you would meet.
But I am just so vehementlyconvinced now that the more
authentic we are in theworkplace in other words, we're
not that different from insideto outside of work I get it,
there are, you know, there aredecorum things and we can't, you
know foul language and thingsbut the more authentic I can be
(46:04):
inside, outside of work andeverywhere in between, the more
trustworthy I am and the morenaturally and loyally
followership will arrive.
So it changed my life.
And there was one final momentand then I'll just shut up and
listen is I gave a talk at Audi.
It's been well over a year now.
We're at the Q&A portion of thetalk and this is what really
hit home and was the final kindof straw for me to say this is
(46:28):
who you are, not just a workthing.
Q&a at the end, fella stands up, raises his hand, stands up,
big, big former division onefootball player, bald head, mr,
clean looking guy, reallyintimidating guy.
I'm like, oh shit, where's hegoing?
He?
Jay Johnson (46:44):
thinks I'm full of it.
Kyle McDowell (46:46):
He says in front of a group of like 70 executives
at Audi, he says this bookchanged my life.
Love hearing that he said, butmaybe not for the reasons.
You think these principles havechanged how I'm raising my
children, dude, I teared up.
I teared up in front of 70strangers.
Um, there was a stool behindthe podium at which I delivered
(47:08):
part of my speech.
I just sat back on the stooland I said I got nothing.
You guys, I'm.
I think my work here is doneand that was a really powerful,
important moment to me becauseit realized we set our own
ceilings as well, and I was.
I set out on this mission tochange the workplace and it's
now created this momentum thatI'm seeing and hearing from
readers that it's having similarimpacts in their personal lives
, which is just fuel to me, man,it keeps me going.
(47:31):
And when I say it changed mylife, I'm not.
There's no hyperbole there.
Jay Johnson (47:51):
It absolutely has changed my life or work-life
integration.
There is no two Kyles, there isno two Js.
You are a human being and youoperate in different
environments and contexts and,to try to put on, yes, there's
behaviors or social expectationsin different places, but you're
not a different person walkinginto those spaces.
Kyle McDowell (48:11):
Jay, why do we have two different vocabularies?
Unless you go home at the endof a long day and say hey, honey
, how'd you do on yourdeliverables today?
I think we could probably getinto the science of code
switching and the purpose behindit, but we might be in a long
conversation.
Our next gap you and I will dothis again, hopefully.
Jay Johnson (48:29):
Well, I would love to do this again and actually
dig into the 10 wheeze, becauseI think this is a really
powerful conversation and reallyinsightful.
You know, if you're thattrainer, if you're that coach
and you're sitting there andyou're wondering, hey, why are
things not necessarily easy forme in this L&D space right now
or in this talent managementspace, really be thinking about
(48:51):
that question of connection andI think that, kyle, you just did
such an incredible job settingthat standard of a North Star,
if we need to be connectedbefore we're actually going to
be fulfilled, happy, or whetheror not that check mark of
acquisition is going to actuallyhave meaning in our lives.
So I want to say thank you forthat.
Kyle McDowell (49:10):
It's my pleasure, thank you.
Jay Johnson (49:12):
Kyle, if our audience wanted to get in touch
with you, how would they reachout to you?
Kyle McDowell (49:16):
So I'm on essentially every social media
platform with the handle at KyleMcDowell Inc.
My website iskylemcdowellinccom as well.
The book is Begin With we.
It's available wherever booksare sold.
It seems like Amazon's probablythe easiest place to get it.
But listen, man, anytime I getan opportunity to share these
experiences and I never want tocome across that it's about me,
(49:40):
because it's not theseprinciples have taken on a life
of their own, and I'm just asteward kind of kind of helping
spread that word, and meetingfolks like you and having
conversations like this is theperfect way to do it, so I'm
eternally grateful, thank you.
Jay Johnson (49:54):
We're grateful for having you on the show and thank
you, kyle.
I look forward to our futureconversations and likewise,
thank you, audience, for tuninginto this episode of the talent
forge, where we are shaping thefuture of training and
development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today we have a really specialguest, kyle McDowell, and I want
to say welcome to the show,kyle.
Kyle McDowell (00:12):
Jay man, it's great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
Jay Johnson (00:15):
Yeah, kyle.
Okay.
So, looking at your background,you have some amazing
experiences in everything fromyour speaking to your corporate
experience.
I'd love for the audience toget to know you just a little
bit.
Tell me your story.
How did you get into this kindof speaking, talent development,
workforce development, space.
Kyle McDowell (00:34):
Well, it was never the plan, so I would
venture to guess so often, sooften.
Jay Johnson (00:39):
Yeah, right, love it, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (00:42):
No surprise.
Right, we're out of the gatewith no surprises, man.
So I began my career I think sono differently than probably
every member of your audienceand that is a lot of optimism.
I brought a lot of energy andexcitement.
I was an eager beaver and Iwanted to take on as much as
possible and kind of grow andhave an impact.
I wanted to find fulfillmentand have an impact and I wanted
(01:05):
to do big things, and I stillremember that very first cubicle
I started at in a regional bank, and it's been about 30 years
ago.
I plotted my path throughcorporate America, like many of
us, and found myself in biggerand bigger roles and
responsibilities.
Know, ultimately, beforeexiting the corporate world in
2019 to write my book, I ledcollectively about 30,000
(01:30):
employees.
In my last two roles, I hadmulti-billion dollar P&Ls for
which I was responsible.
But for me, I think that iskind of superficial stuff,
because I think all of us setout to do.
We want to do big things, wewant to have an impact, we want
to, we want to find fulfillmentand, uh, I didn't have any of
(01:50):
those things.
The first 20 or so years of mycareer.
I had a lot of accomplishments,I checked a lot of boxes and,
from the outside, looking in,appeared to be some guy who, who
was, you know, reasonablysuccessful and had achieved a
lot of his goals, but what Ifelt inside was apathy.
It was probably around year 22,.
Maybe that I sensed so muchapathy and this overwhelming
(02:15):
question of is there a betterway?
That I had to look in themirror.
I had to do some really deep,deep self-reflection and that's
what kind of fueled what I'm nowcalling the second chapter of
my career, and I left corporateAmerica in 2019 to write my book
Begin With we.
It became a USA Today and WallStreet Journal bestseller, and
you mentioned my speaking, sonow that's most of my activity
(02:38):
is in.
My work is around speaking atlarge conferences or even
organizations to help them kindof not make the same mistakes
that I made, and use theseprinciples that I created and
that are the foundation for thebook to help create what I
coined as a culture ofexcellence, where there's a
strong sense of we.
We actually lean into eachother, we take care of each
(02:59):
other.
We we actually give a about oneanother, and it's a lot more
about relationships andconnection than it is results,
because if you have the former,the latter is going to come, and
that's what I found.
Jay Johnson (03:10):
Oh, I'm loving this , Okay.
So let me let me dig in and acouple of things here is.
First of all, you got out ofcorporate when getting was good
in 2019.
It was almost.
Maybe you had that predictivecapacity of like maybe I should
get out of here, but that'sawesome.
So here's my question.
You know, as somebody with mybehavioral science background, I
(03:32):
study emotions a lot.
Apathy is one of those emotionsthat I think a lot of people
have a very difficult timegrasping, and they may be,
because when we feel apathy, itcan lead to a number of things
it can lead to us feeling anger,it can lead to us feeling
frustrated, it can lead toburnout, it can lead to a number
of things, but and it can alsobe the inverse of that that all
(03:54):
of those can lead to apathy.
So here's my question for you,Kyle what was it that sort of
gave you an indication Like thisis apathy, this is I'm not
feeling fulfilled, I'm not, Idon't care, and obviously that's
not something that you wantedto be, but what was it that was
the signal to you?
That was like yeah, I'm in anapathetic state at the moment.
Kyle McDowell (04:17):
Yeah, man, where to begin?
For me, there were a couple ofthings that I just couldn't
avoid.
The first was my marriage.
My marriage was on the brink ofa divorce that ultimately came
to be, and certainly my workplayed a huge role in that
downfall.
I was on the road three, fournights a week for about a dozen
(04:39):
years and my work became myidentity and my work became my
identity.
I was the same, I carried thesame being for lack of a maybe
more scientific expressioninside and outside of work, and
everything I did was connectedto my work always on call,
always, and that was kind of thenature of the work that I did.
(05:00):
I was an operations guy.
We ran 24 hour operationsaround the globe, so you know,
that kind of comes with theterritory.
But when I realized the impactit was having on my personal
life not just my marriage, myrelationships with with other
loved ones were, were all beingcompromised.
My health was not good.
I didn't, I didn't, wasn't inshape, I didn't, I didn't.
There was always somethingwrong.
(05:23):
And one day I used to trainwith this guy and he said man, I
think stress is what's drivingyour illnesses, your aches, your
pains.
I think your back is largelyrelated to your stress.
And I said man, you're nuts,you're crazy, and it turned out
to be so.
And I tell you, jay, what isthe biggest gut punch of all is
(05:44):
when you become apathetic aboutthe very environments that you
created.
That's a wet blanket.
That really was an eye openerfor me.
So I started to ask a lot ofquestions like is there a better
way?
Am I the only one that feelsthis way?
And what iced it for me?
When you asked about the thingsthat put me in that position, I
think, ultimately, thesequestions forced me to ask my
(06:04):
conf.
You know the, the things thatput me in that position.
I think, ultimately, thesequestions forced me to ask my
confidants, people that I reallytrusted, those that have been
with me from multiple with atmultiple organizations.
I had surrounded myself byfolks that I really trusted and
and it turned out, what Ithought was respect was actually
fear.
They feared me.
And you know if you, if you,care at all about your brand and
(06:25):
your reputation and how peoplethink about you and what they
say about you at the dinnertable, cause, let's be honest,
if you're in any, any type ofposition of authority, and
oftentimes even not those thatyou work with they're talking
about you at the dinner table.
They're.
They're telling theirsignificant other what a jerk
you were that day.
Yeah, my boss, oh gosh yeah yeah, and it occurred to me when I
(06:47):
realized respect was not what Iwas feeling and it was more fear
, and one person even told methat directly.
That's when I started to playout kind of a legacy
conversation with myself.
It's like, dude, you've beendoing this 20 something years.
You've checked a lot of boxes.
You've you've accomplishedprobably more than you've ever
(07:08):
dreamt you would probably makingmore than you ever thought you
would.
Is this all there is?
Is there, is there?
Are you meant for more?
Is there something else intofuel?
And that's that.
That's what it compelled me toleave corporate america.
I was going to sit on the benchfor a little while while I
figured things out, uh, and workthrough my marriage which, as I
(07:30):
mentioned, didn't work out, andI made a promise to myself,
after all of these questions andanswers, that if I were to go
back into that fray, I wouldapproach it very, very
differently.
I didn't know what that meant.
I just knew needed, I needed adifferent recipe, because the
recipe I had I knew in and out,backwards and forward, and it
drove great results, but it alsodrove um the apathy.
(07:52):
And it drove it lackedconnection.
I didn't really connect withpeople the way that I could have
, or should have, didn't havethe impact I could ever should
have, and I just didn't want toend my career that way.
So I stepped away, and it onlylasted about 11 days.
I got a phone call asking wouldI be interested to take on a
role that was in need of a bitof a cultural transformation,
(08:12):
had about 15,000 employees, itwas a $7 billion program and it
was obvious to me very, veryearly on in the interview
process that this was what youwere asking for.
Are you really going to be thatguy?
Are you going to be the personthat whines about it, or are you
going to actually take whatyou've learned, hang on to some
of those good aspects and find adifferent way to have a
(08:34):
different set of outcomes thatleave you connected and a legacy
that you can be proud of.
I love that.
Yeah, man, I took the role andI guess the rest worked out
because it was that organization, where I created these
principles that have changed mylife, that compelled me to write
the book.
They're still in practice atthat organization.
I've deployed them at multipleorganizations since then.
(08:55):
It's just, but I have to sayall of that started with the
apathy that drove theself-reflection that caused me
to really test myself.
Are you going to keep your headdown and keep plugging along
like you did the last 20 years,like so many of us do, or are
you going to try to do somethingdifferent?
And I rolled those dice andit's worked out so far.
Jay Johnson (09:15):
I love it.
So let me and I want to getinto the connection, the culture
and your approach.
Before I go there, though Ithink it's important because and
you said it and I think it'sreally important to highlight
there's a lot of people that areprobably feeling that apathy,
that experience right now intheir workplace.
(09:35):
And for our audience who's, youknow, in the HR, talent
development, even managementroles, you know they have to
train them, they have to inspirethem.
They have to train them, theyhave to inspire them, they have
to engage them, they have tomotivate them.
And you know we'll probably diginto this deeper as we get into
the questions on connection oranything else.
But I want you to go back.
If you were you and thank youfor sharing that story and your
(09:59):
experiences vulnerably andopenly, appreciate that a lot.
If you were you back in thattime and somebody was putting
you into a training program andyou were the audience in that
training program, is theresomething that maybe would have
landed for you?
Is there something thatsomebody could have done that
would have maybe snapped you outof it for a minute?
(10:19):
Because when we're in thatapathetic state or when we're in
the you know, forget all thisand this doesn't matter, and not
feeling like in tune withourselves.
We tend to shut off learning.
We tend to shut off, you know,we tend to be cynical about
everything.
Oh great, another trainingexperience.
There's a lot of people thatare experiencing that right now
and I know that there's a lot oftrainers and coaches dealing
(10:41):
with that in the audience.
What might have aligned withyou, what would have landed with
you, what would have got yourattention if you were to go back
to that space and imagineyourself in the audience?
Kyle McDowell (10:55):
Jay, that is believe it or not.
That's a question I think abouta lot Because, if I'm being
completely transparent andhonest with you, if someone were
to have handed me my book in mytwenties, I wouldn't have read
it.
Yeah, just being honest, Iwouldn't have read it.
There's a lot of things.
Jay Johnson (11:13):
There's a lot of things that now Jay Johnson
would look back at Jay Johnsonand be like if you would only
listen to this that's the rub.
Kyle McDowell (11:21):
That's the rub.
That's the rub in my businesstoday is, is, is, and I can't
convince people.
I can just share experiencesand stories.
But if I were able to convincepeople, it would be to convince
them that there is a better way.
There is a better way.
I the reason why so?
To answer your questiondirectly.
(11:41):
Is there something that wouldhave resonated or kind of kind
of snapped me into gear?
The short answer is no.
I'm not proud of that answer,but it's the truth.
And it's no because I was aproduct of my environment.
I led in a way that I sawothers lead and that, in those
days, was a very differentapproach to leadership.
Today, I'm happy to say that.
But it there's this cycle thathappens in almost every
(12:03):
organization and I'll boil itdown to the most simplest of
scenarios.
It's, let's just say, I'm on ateam of 10 and my boss gets
promoted, and now my boss isresponsible for choosing their
backfill.
So I apply, I go through theinterview process.
There's something inherentinside of us that says I need to
(12:26):
endear myself to this personmaking this hiring decision.
Well, what's the best way to dothat?
Well, I should behave similar tothem.
So I'm going to start to takeon the same characteristics and
leadership traits that I loathedin them, because I think it
will endear me to them to get methis job.
And if it works, what do youthink I'm going to do next?
The same bad behavior?
I'm going to continue to.
So that's what I did, and therewere a couple of leaders I
(12:49):
should call them bossesthroughout my kind of growth and
kind of coming up in thecorporate world that I'm very
grateful for having worked with,but I'm not grateful for the
leadership style that they Idon't want to say instilled,
because that implies that I hadno responsibility in it.
I had responsibility in it,clearly, but, um, I'm grateful
(13:09):
for those opportunities andworking with them, because it
taught me how to get stuff done,but it didn't tell me.
It didn't tell me or show methe way to get it done.
That inspired people to want todo it, to continue to want to
do it, to reach for more, to dobetter, to not settle.
So that's, you know, the shortanswer is no, and the rub for me
(13:31):
today, in my work today, istrying to get people to
understand that the way that yousee things today doesn't
necessarily mean it's the waythat it has to be forever.
It requires making a choice, itrequires some self-reflection,
it requires doing things thatyou may not have been
comfortable doing historicallyand for me, I was not open to
those things because, as Imentioned, I was quote unquote
successful.
(13:51):
I was, at every 18 months, 24months, I would find myself in
bigger and bigger roles.
So why change that recipe?
It's hard to refute that untilthe benefit of age and wisdom
benefit of age and wisdom Um, Ihave a lot of age and a little
bit of wisdom to say thatthere's a better way, and I've,
you know, I I think, if we'regoing to work as much as we all
(14:13):
work, it needs to be the mostimpactful work we can make and
have.
Jay Johnson (14:16):
Yeah, you know, when you're talking about that
driver or that, that measure ofsuccess and the way that we end
up measuring success in a lot oforganizations is bottom line or
promotion or quote unquotewinning.
And a lot of the work that I dois on our biological drives and
while that satisfies our driveto acquire, it misses out on a
(14:39):
lot of other things such as ourdrive to learn, our drive to
bond and our drive to defend,and I think that's where we're
going.
Next is the drive to connectand bond with each other.
So it seems to me and correctme if I'm speaking out of turn
it seems to me that as you wentthrough this stage of sort of
navigating how you're feeling inthis environment, how you're
(15:03):
feeling about yourself, howyou're feeling about your role
and not feeling fulfilled itseems to me that it was almost a
longing for deeper connectionand or relationships with people
.
Can you talk about that alittle bit?
Kyle McDowell (15:18):
First of all, the premise of the question is so
enlightening to me because youessentially described me.
I checked those boxes and wasnot able to connect those that
you closed with the question.
You know with the connectionand you know how it makes me
feel.
By the way, you wouldn't catchme having a conversation about
(15:42):
feelings.
Jay Johnson (15:43):
Sure.
Kyle McDowell (15:43):
The first dozen or two decades.
Jay Johnson (15:47):
Kyle, I'm a former junior hockey player and mixed
martial artist, a competitivedebater and excessively driven
to win.
I feel you and I've had tolearn the other side to feel
more connected.
Kyle McDowell (16:02):
Okay, so let me turn it back to you.
Was that a conscious shift foryou?
Was there an epiphany?
Was there a moment that yousaid this ain't it, I've got to.
I need to find a different path.
Jay Johnson (16:12):
Yeah, it really was , and I'm I'm I'm almost betting
that we're very similar on this.
For me, research was about mesearch.
I was trying to figure out whydo I keep finding myself in the
same positions, making the samebad decisions, doing the same
things, alienating people, andso on and so forth.
So when I say I empathize, Iauthentically, in this case,
(16:38):
recognize and see a lot of that,and that's why I really
appreciate you being able tokind of communicate this,
because this is something that Ifind to be really valuable.
Uh, the turning point is onebad decision where it was just
like what am I doing?
Why do I keep doing?
Kyle McDowell (16:53):
this bad, how bad , how, jay what's that bad how?
Jay Johnson (16:57):
usually was yeah, usually it was the destruction
of some kind of relationship,and not I don't mean like
partners, I don't mean like aspousal or anything else like
that, I mean like businessrelationship, friend
relationship, colleague,coworker or whatever else.
And it was just like and partof it was is my drive to win.
It was win at the cost ofpretty much anything.
(17:20):
That really served me well whenI was in hockey, it really
served me well when I was inmixed martial arts, but it
wasn't serving me well in myhappiness or my gratitude for
life or the relationships that Iwas building around me.
Kyle McDowell (17:33):
What do you think you missed out on as a result?
Jay Johnson (17:36):
You know it's interesting.
I don't, I will say, and I wantto.
I want to pose that question toyou too, because I find it to
be a really interesting question.
I believe that every singlething that I had gone through,
every experience, has led me tokind of break through to where
I'm at today, and I think that,absent those experiences, I
(17:56):
might still be doing the samething.
So I don't want to.
I don't particularly look at itas what did I miss out on?
Uh, when I was in that positionand when I started to make that
decision to study behavioralscience, it was what am I
missing out on in the future?
And it really was a futureforward of how can I fix this in
moving forward, I didn't reallylook back as much, don't get me
(18:18):
wrong.
I reflected on the patterns ofbehaviors, but it wasn't a
question of, okay, I'm going tolament and regret and do all of
these other things for a historythat is lost.
It was much more about hey, I'ma young enough person that I
can figure this out.
I feel like I'm smart enough, Ifeel like I've got enough
energy to do so.
What does my future look like?
(18:39):
And that's really right.
Do you feel like, from yourperspective, do you feel like
there was things that weremissed, or is it, you know, was
it something that wasmotivational behind that for you
?
Kyle McDowell (18:49):
Clearly, for me, the thing missed was connection,
and I don't mean to speak innebular terms.
Here's what I mean.
On one hand, I can count thenumber of connections people
that I would.
I can pick up the phone rightnow and call and say, hey, I
want to bounce an idea off you.
On one hand, or less than onehand, I could count the number
(19:11):
of people that would fit thatcategory from the first 20 years
of my career.
The last decade, I still haveone-on-ones with people I
haven't worked with in five, six, seven years.
Jay Johnson (19:22):
That's awesome.
Kyle McDowell (19:23):
Right and I I think it illustrates the point
of what I missed out on, andthat is those connections that
are not just means to an end,they're genuine bonds.
I genuinely care about you andyour success and how I might be
able to help that, and in turn,I hope that you might have some
(19:45):
nuggets of wisdom to drop on meoccasionally, or at least tell
me that I'm full of it, someoneI can call and say, kyle,
they'll break it down for me.
So connection, I think, is theprimary loss for me.
Um, because you know, I'm still, I'm still able to deliver, um,
I think, incredibly strongresults.
(20:05):
It's just, it's just how I get.
There is a very, very differentapproach than than years past.
Jay Johnson (20:11):
Okay Now, and that makes sense, I think you know,
from the connection side, I'mvery fortunate that I have had
people who have been with mefrom early on and continued on
my journey.
Um, partially because in myefforts to win I also do have
sort of an undying and this iswhat I've had to more cultivate
(20:35):
an undying loyalty to team, andI'm going to credit my hockey
days for that.
It's like nope, team first,I'll step back or whatever else,
as long as we're winning.
So I had that and Idemonstrated that loyalty, but
not without impact sometimes oflike hey, I was a tyrant in some
(20:56):
cases.
You know I was a.
Why are you not working 16hours a day?
I can work 16 hours a day, whatthe hell's wrong with you?
And in sort of that, in sort ofthat experience, I found myself
just being angry and frustratedand damaging some of that trust
and things like that.
But it was always one of thosewhere they knew I had their back
but I could still be a realasshole.
Kyle McDowell (21:18):
If that makes sense, yeah, absolutely, well
said.
Jay Johnson (21:21):
Yeah, let's talk about connection.
Go ahead, go ahead.
Kyle McDowell (21:25):
Well, I'm just going to say the similarities
and the way that you express youknow your path, uh, that they
are.
There's a strong overlap thereand I don't at all claim myself
or proclaim to be any type ofbehavioral expert.
The way that you are so hearingyou describe it and the way you
articulate it is very differentthan the way I would have, but
(21:47):
it resonates in such a way thatI see the overlap.
It's really, I think it'sreally powerful, so I'm grateful
.
Jay Johnson (21:56):
I'm grateful for you breaking it down that way,
sincerely.
I'm I'm grateful to have afriend that's experienced some
of the things.
It's amazing.
So, all right, let's talk aboutconnection, because you've
created systems and obviouslyinstalled that when you had
taken that role, you know, 11days after you had left
corporate to really kind ofcreate connection, meaning and
impact, and have even written abook about it, which I'm always
impressed with any author.
(22:16):
I've been writing a book for 10years and I'm still on page
whatever, but that's a journeyfor another story.
But you took this sort ofinternal desire, maybe this lack
, maybe this gap, and you turnedit into something beautiful.
That's helped, you know,organization shift.
(22:37):
Let's talk about that.
What in that hunt forconnection?
What did that look like for you?
Kyle McDowell (22:45):
For me it was a, it was a genuine epiphany.
So I took the role and Iallowed 30, maybe 60 days to
elapse and, you know, I I was atleast aware enough to know that
I needed this team more thanthey needed me.
For some context, the fellowthat had the role before me, I
think, was dismissed and believethe woman before him might've
(23:09):
also been let go.
So they had seen people comeand go in this role and it's
probably worth noting my directreports.
They had an average tenure ofabout 12 years, so they had
forgotten more about their rolesthan I knew because I was new.
But it was clear to me alsothat of my seven or eight I
don't know six, seven, eightdirect reports who managed
(23:30):
really large functions hundreds,if not thousands, of people
there was not, there was not areal sense of team, not that
they didn't care about eachother, but it was.
If one group was winning andthe other group was, another
group was not quote, unquotewinning.
The winning side, the winningteam did not wreck.
Recognize that on the macro, wewere not winning.
(23:52):
If, if, if, a group inside ofthis team is not winning, then
we're not winning as a group.
So, yeah, right, exactly, um,so it was probably uh, 45, 60
days into the role.
I asked for the top 45 or 60leaders of this 15,000 person
organization to come togetherand it would be my chance to
(24:13):
kind of share my expectations ofthe team.
But I also wanted to be reallyclear.
These would be theirexpectations of me, which is an
approach that I had neverconsidered.
My ego wouldn't allow me totake that approach.
So, jay, the night before I wasto be on stage in front of this
group of leaders, I wasfreaking terrified.
I was in my hotel room.
I had no idea what I was goingto say.
I just knew the recipe of oldwas not the recipe I wanted to
(24:38):
bring to this organization,because I took the role
understanding that I could leadin a different way and I was
asked to lead a transformation.
So it was probably aroundmidnight that night that I'd
started.
We had a dinner earlier in theevening and I was still wearing
that day suit.
I had my laptop open.
I said I got to put some slidestogether and this epiphany that
(25:00):
hit me was this is your chance.
You're leading a massiveorganization If you want to have
the impact that you brought,the desire to have an impact
that you brought with you 30years ago or 20 something years
ago.
Now's the time to have animpact that you brought with you
30 years ago or 20 somethingyears ago.
Now's the time.
You've gotten the green light.
You've been told this is inneed, but how are you going to
do it?
So then I just started to replayboth really positive scenarios,
(25:22):
but also those scenarios thatleft me feeling less than whole
feeling, as if I was just kindof a means to an end or I was a
transaction for my boss.
Boss is, and I'm not a supercreative person, so I just
started typing in.
An hour or two elapsed and I'mstaring at my laptop with 10
sentences, that's it, and eachof them uh at the time, and
(25:44):
still do begin with the word we,and these were going to be.
I called them our, our, ourguiding principles.
I didn't, I didn't have 10sentences that began with we, so
I called them the 10 we's.
These are our guidingprinciples.
I didn't even know what thedefinition of a principle
technically was, but I sharedthem with the team the next
morning and I opened up with Idon't care what our clients
think, I don't care aboutanything other than what's
(26:07):
happening behind this curtain,because it was obvious to me
that this organization does areally fine job of of orienting
the new hire into the fold right.
Here's your job, here's whatyou do here, the X's and O's,
the SOPs like here's, here's.
You know, this goes before thatvery, very um, I thought
sophisticated on the trainingand learning side of things, but
(26:30):
there was not guidelines orexpectations, very clear
expectations set for behavior,how we treat one another behind
the curtain.
And I was convinced that if wecould be high functioning behind
the curtain and really, reallybe a team, lean into this
concept of we which hit me thenight before, the results would
come, but we would do it in away that recognizes each other's
contributions, we would carefor one another and we would
(26:51):
collectively win, not justindividual silos.
And it worked.
I shared the 10 wheeze the nextmorning and fast forward a
handful of years later.
Those principles they've madetheir way into that company's
performance evaluations.
They had the 10 wheeze awards,they created all kinds of swag.
I still wear my 10 wheezebracelet from many, many, many,
(27:13):
many years ago.
Um, and what ha?
And I think the reason why ittook off so quickly there is.
There was a recognition that weknow our business, we're really
good at the fundamentals of ourbusiness, but no one's ever
said, hey, we're going to pickeach other up, we're going to
own our mistakes, we're going tosay what we're going to do and
then we do it.
(27:34):
These 10 principles.
No one has ever been thatexplicit.
We've got these values on awall that no one can recite, but
no one has been explicit enoughto say, first of all hey, boss,
this is how we're going to holdyou accountable.
And I remember like it wasyesterday.
I literally said if you guyssee me behaving contrary to any
one of these principles, I wantyou to grab me by the ear and
say dude, you're being ahypocrite.
(27:55):
I said it just like that.
Some did, some didn't.
But that was the beginning of avery different leadership
approach for me and, by the way,parenthetically.
Five years later there weremembers of that team that
reached out to me.
I was with another firm alreadythat reached out to say when's
your book coming?
And I said I'm not writing abook.
(28:17):
What are you talking about?
I'm not an author.
He said okay, you're the guythat said this is who you are.
You changed this $7 billionprogram.
Do you have something more inyou?
Is there more for you?
They thought that they thoughtI had more in me, and it was
that reason why I started towrite the book, because other
people had changed theirexistence in terms of their
(28:37):
ability to be a good teammate, agood leader.
But then I started to hearstories about how it was
changing, how they behaveoutside of work, and I thought
this is, this is where I have togo, and now it's my purpose to
continue to evangelize theseprinciples the 10 wheeze.
Jay Johnson (28:53):
We're going to get into that.
But I want to go back tosomething that you said and
thank you for sharing that.
What I'm looking at here is I'mimagining Kyle sitting in the
hotel room in the day before hisbusiness suit and you're
sitting there and you're lookingat blank page syndrome.
You're trying to hack out whatit is that you're going to talk
about, and I got to imagine thatsome level, some level of
(29:14):
temptation, starts to creep backin, because you're recently
fresh off of your other you know11 days or whatever it was from
your previous and on some levelthere had to be the temptation
of well, this worked really wellfor me 30 years ago.
How did you temper thattemptation?
(29:34):
Because a lot's on the line,lot at stake, and one of the
things that human beings tend todo when there is a high risk
calculation or anything else isgo back to whatever they've
survived on before.
I mean, that's a natural partof the way our brain is
constructed.
So you had to feel a little bitof that temptation.
What was the tipping point?
(29:55):
To say no, I'm not going to goback into that pattern of
behavior.
Kyle McDowell (30:00):
Love this question.
The tension or the potential ofsliding back into that approach
didn't happen immediately.
I would say half the room wasreally excited and optimistic.
I would say a quarter was kindof cautiously optimistic.
There was a quarter-ish thatwere obstinate.
(30:23):
They're just like this guy's,full of it.
It's never going to work.
Jay Johnson (30:25):
This is BS.
This is all emotions, this isall the things.
Kyle McDowell (30:29):
One guy accused me of plagiarizing.
He asked for my presentationbecause he wanted to check the
file properties to see if Icreated the PowerPoint.
I'm great buddies since then.
But yeah, he admitted to that.
The, the, the, the.
I was tempted to backslide andI think it's probably a fair way
of describing it.
It when my adoption of my ownprinciples was tested and there
(30:56):
was a scenario that I rememberlike it was yesterday.
So one of the principles wenumber eight is we challenge
each other.
The following principle is weembrace challenge.
My temptation to use mybusiness card instead of the
principles that I had documentedand subscribed to and and was
evangelizing, came when I waschallenged um a woman on the
(31:22):
team, um brilliant woman, whenyou say use your business card.
Jay Johnson (31:27):
I'm assuming and presuming that it's like no, I'm
the boss now, just get youryour ass, because I said so.
Right, yeah, right.
Because I said so Just wantedto make sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kyle McDowell (31:35):
Yeah, because I said so.
This is not a democracy.
I'm the leader and this is thedecision I'm making, which is
not, you know, I wouldn't saytwo 300 people, ish and um, she
was responsible for all of ourcontract work, which is a really
big role.
She was, she's, a brilliantwoman.
(31:58):
Um, I was still learning.
I said, hey, um, julia, sheknows I tell this story.
Hey, julia, can you send me theX, y, z workbook Because I want
to dig into some of the Excelworkbooks.
I want to dig into some of theformulas because I'm a data nerd
.
If I can dive in and see howthis affects that, I would be
smarter for my little bit ofhomework.
And Julia sent me a screenshot.
(32:22):
Well, if you ever use Excel,you know a screenshot is not
super helpful because you can'tfollow references, you don't
know how things are calculated.
So I said, julia, maybe it wasa mistake.
Julia, can you just send me theworkbook please?
I need the whole workbook.
I want to check references,different tabs and so on.
She sends me a workbook now butit only has one tab in.
It Didn't have the other tabsthat were referencing data
elsewhere.
And this is the point that I'veso vividly recall saying all
(32:43):
right, dude, your principles areone thing, the standards that
you've established are one thing, but now you've got someone
who's, for whatever reason, andI think this moment, this
scenario, had such an outsizedimpact on my and unexpected
impact on my ability for theseprinciples to take hold.
(33:06):
Because, as you know, I wasbeing watched and am I the guy
evangelizing these principlesand kind of preaching them but
not living them, creating thisleadership gap which I have seen
all too many times, We've allseen all too many times, and I'm
just one of those guys at thispoint.
Or am I gonna take my ownmedicine?
For whatever reason, I took myown medicine and I just
(33:29):
continued to kind of coddle insome ways.
Julia, please, this is what Ineed.
I didn't react the way I wantedto.
I think it's worth sharing.
She, please, this is what Ineed.
Didn't react the way I wantedto.
I think it's worth sharing.
She is one of those people thatI still have regular
one-on-ones with, multiple yearslater, although at the time and
she'll say this out loud we didnot see eye to eye, we didn't,
we didn't like each other, butnow she's one of my closest
confidants that I just cherishthat relationship.
(33:52):
But that was the, that was thesentinel moment.
I realized you can't just talkabout it.
As a matter of fact, nobodycares what you say.
They're watching you, they carehow you act, they'll follow
your behavior, not what you say.
And that was a.
That was a real pivotal momentin my journey, cause I used to
lead with ego and now I wasleading with a more kind of
empathetic approach.
(34:13):
Why was she challenging me inthe way that she was?
Why was she being difficult?
Well, because she had beenburned by people in my position
previously.
I came to find so.
So that was the biggest momentfor me, and there are certainly
other instances, probably lessimpactful, that I learned to.
To respond rather than react isprobably the best way I would
describe it.
Jay Johnson (34:33):
I love how you framed that, because we've and
every single human being goesthrough this process of where we
have a thought, we have afeeling and we have a choice to
make, and that's literally froma behavioral.
That's why I studied behaviorand not something else was my
core philosophy is our behavioris the only choice that we have.
(34:54):
You're going to have feelings,You're going to have thoughts,
more than likely.
In that moment, Julia wasobstinate and there was that
sort of thought process of likewhy is this person doing this?
or you know, and all of thoseother feelings that come with it
frustration, anger, et cetera.
But you made a choice and it'sin those choices that drives our
(35:15):
success and failure.
And I love that the 10 wheezeare the sort of guiding North
Star light to how you're makingchoices.
So I don't want to pay lipservice to them, but I know that
we don't have that much time tomaybe go through all of them,
so I'm going to encourage ouraudience to buy your book.
Take a look at it, but let'stalk about it.
So this connection piece, thisstarting with we not even
(35:38):
necessarily with why, butstarting with we we're all in
this together.
What is you know?
As you navigated theseprinciples?
What are some of the thingsthat you started to see in terms
of outcomes when people said,hey, we got to this, we space.
What did you see in thatorganizational shift?
Kyle McDowell (35:58):
Yeah, so the first thing.
So I have to admit, the firstseveral months after introducing
them, there was a fair amountof fear that I was being
pandered to.
Like you know, the more senioryou are, the funnier your jokes
somehow are, the more timepeople want to spend, right?
That's just how it works.
(36:19):
So I was a little concerned.
There was some brown nosingfrankly going on, so I didn't
push them and I told the team.
I said I don't care if these 10become 11 or become 8 or 7, but
this is what you can expectfrom me.
I hope you follow along with meand we all adopt these
principles.
This is the standard that I'mgonna hold myself accountable to
(36:40):
and I'm going to.
I'm going to hold you similarly, but you don't have to
subscribe to them.
Just know that these are thethings.
These are our standards.
Um, I would.
I started to see signage pop up.
So we had lots of locationsaround the country.
I started to see signage thatwas, again, not quite convinced
it wasn't pandering to the newguy but where it really became
palpable and profound and I'lluse the same example of we
(37:03):
number eight.
We challenge each other is staffmeetings, which are
historically in mostorganizations, most environments
, they're readouts.
The boss is at the end of thetable.
We go around the table peoplegiving their KPI updates or
whatever's going on in theirworld, we break, we move on.
Well, when you say thatchallenge is not an option, it's
an obligation, but it has to bedone diplomatically and it
(37:25):
needs to have an element of dataor experience.
That's the rule.
It's not your opinion.
My staff meeting started toturn into conversations where
Lori would be on one end of thetable and she would go through
her readout.
Julia would hear something thatdidn't quite pass her sniff
test because she's been with theorganization a long time, she
knows people, that knows peopleand that know people and she's
(37:46):
she knows this business.
So now she's obligated to saywell, hang on a second.
Lori, in a meeting yesterday,so-and-so, said this or you
picked the scenario.
But my point is is we haveconversations now.
It's not just readouts and whatI would do occasionally.
So in an organization this size, you have to pick your battles,
you have to pick where youspend your time and hopefully
(38:08):
you pick the right paths, theright avenues.
But there were times, admittedly, I would dial in to a call.
This is way before COVID.
So video wasn't as prominent,it's almost all voice.
You know teleconference Um, Iwould dial in and not announce
myself.
And what was so heartwarming andreally profound and that's when
I knew the brown nosing wasless of a thing and it was more
(38:29):
authentic was I would hearpeople say, well, listen, hey,
we challenge each other, right.
And then they would bring up acontrary point and and someone
would say, well, yeah, well, weembrace challenge.
Or hey, we do the right thing.
So before we land on an answeror a solution here, the problem
we're trying to solve, let's notforget we do the right thing,
right, guys.
So I would hear it played backin vernacular and it became part
(38:51):
of our DNA man, and it wassomething that you couldn't go
more than probably 20 minutes inany meeting without someone
interjecting one of theprinciples as kind of our true
North Star this is how we'regoing to behave, because we've
all subscribed to that.
So for me, seeing it was onething, but hearing it,
especially when I wasn't in theroom technically, was probably
the most impactful moment whereI realized something bigger than
(39:13):
me is happening here and we gotto embrace this.
Jay Johnson (39:16):
Well, and I think one of the things that it seems
to me and again without havingbeen there, but it seems to me
one of the things that you didwas you normalized a language
around a value system and astructured value system, that
North Star, because I thinkthat's where a lot of
organizations fail in developingtheir cultures.
They have these high levelvalues purpose meaning that
(39:39):
literally does not translateinto a short slogan of we
embrace challenge that I canremember.
I can't remember what it is.
If it's just like we organizeourselves so that way, we bring
innovation at every turn and dothis in order to facilitate the
best customer relation who givesus.
(39:59):
We embrace it right so it soundsto me like you really developed
a language that was around youyou you had mentioned.
It became a part of thevernacular.
But when we do that, that'sreally what cements it.
If I can communicate it, thenit's real.
If I can't explain it, whatdoes that mean?
Kyle McDowell (40:17):
Man, again you.
You have described my work in away better than I do.
You're right, I've never lookedat it as normalizing dialogue
or normalizing our communication, but that's exactly what
happened and your connection toso.
I worked for a company thatI'll leave the name of the
company out.
The mission statement washelping consumers on their paths
(40:39):
to better health Beautiful.
No one's going to disagree thatI want to be a part of that.
Clean, perfect, right.
Except it doesn't compel me towork a bit harder.
It doesn't compel me to workany more collaboratively.
It doesn't compel me to focuson outcomes over activity.
That's what the principles do.
They enable those loftystatements, most of which people
(41:02):
cannot even recite.
They enable them in a way thatis actionable and it's a
currency, almost.
It's a currency that, no matterif you're the newest intern or
the most tenured leader on theprogram, you have the ability
not just the ability.
You're obligated to spend thatcurrency.
And your observation is spot on.
(41:26):
It created normal words andphrases and dialogue that you
wouldn't have heard otherwise,because we made the choice to
use them as part of our being,of who we are.
Jay Johnson (41:31):
That was kind of you to say.
It's something that I'vebelieved for a long time and we
see it backed up by science.
If it's easy, people will do it.
If it's hard, they're going totry to find an easier pathway.
You made a very complex conceptof values and identity inside
(41:55):
of an organization, of valuesand identity inside of an
organization super easy,manageable and something that
everybody can say, hey, yeah,you know, if we all buy into
this 10 wheeze, that's going tocreate an environment that I'd
like to work in.
Kyle McDowell (42:08):
Yep, yep, yep.
But, jay, can I challengesomething you just said?
Man, sure, I would love to swapout your use of the word easy
for simple.
Jay Johnson (42:19):
Sure, I'll accept that.
Kyle McDowell (42:21):
Because I think I'm the first to admit the
principles are incredibly simple, but they're not easy because
of the conversation we just had.
Right, when things are good,man, it's easy to say, yeah, we
do the right thing.
We challenge each other.
That's easy when things aretough To live it is a different
question, they're still simple.
Jay Johnson (42:41):
Yep.
Kyle McDowell (42:42):
But it's not easy .
So that's you know.
That's the only thing I wouldsay.
I would not disagree, but justmaybe amend, if you're okay with
it 100%.
Jay Johnson (42:49):
I think that's a great amendment and probably
more in line with what I meantthan what I said.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, so, kyle, in the eventthat, in the event that let's
kind of fast forward and justfor a time sake here and I would
love to have you back, cause Ithink that there's a number of
things that I'd love to godeeper in Likewise Fast forward.
(43:13):
We've implemented this and Iwant to go back to the origin
story.
We've implemented this.
You said, eventually, you hadmoved on to a different firm,
etc.
How were you feeling?
Because there had to be somelevel of that gap that you
experienced when you were in thecorporate side of things to
where, all of a sudden, you'vemade this transition, you've
(43:33):
started to see thingsdifferently and now you've
emerged from the other side ofthe hero's journey, the story,
the whatever else You've comeout, changed.
How did that feel for you?
Kyle McDowell (43:46):
Changed my life, Jay.
Changed my life.
It started as a change,exclusively in my work world,
exclusively in my work world.
But then I realized so it's onething to say that these are the
standards that you holdyourself accountable to in the
workplace and it's another thingto say and if I don't live
(44:08):
these in front of you guys oryou see me behaving contrary to
them, call me a hypocrite.
But I wasn't.
For many years I was notcarrying those same standards
and principles to my personallife.
And there was an epiphanymoment there as well, where I
realized okay, you're not beinga hypocrite in the workplace,
but a hypocrite is still ahypocrite.
So if you're not committed todoing the right thing and it's a
(44:30):
silly example, but I caughtmyself leaving the shopping cart
in the parking spot next to meinstead of returning it to the
little corral thing or back tothe grocery store.
I'm pulling away and I see mygrocery cart in the rear view.
It's like a movie.
I'm pulling away and I can seethe grocery cart slowly rolling
backwards and I go, youhypocrite.
So I whipped my truck into aparking spot and took it back
(44:53):
and I've never left a grocerycart not where it belongs ever
since then and took it back andI've never left a grocery cart
not where it belongs ever sincethen.
But the change, my life part,comes when I realize when we set
our, when we set a series ofstandards, I don't care if it's
one.
Ideally it's more than that.
But as a human being, when weset our, when we set a series of
standards that we're going tohold ourselves accountable to,
we're going to, we'll stumble,we won't get it right all the
(45:14):
time, but how do you ever, howdo you achieve, how do you reach
goals?
How, how are you exceptional inanything without establishing
the standards of your behaviorthat are required to achieve
that excellence?
It's almost, it's.
It's almost nonsensical to me,but I never looked at it that
way.
My work Kyle and the out ofwork Kyle were two different
(45:35):
beings.
I just happened to spend a lotmore time on the work side, so
it was a predominant characterthat you would meet.
But I am just so vehementlyconvinced now that the more
authentic we are in theworkplace in other words, we're
not that different from insideto outside of work I get it,
there are, you know, there aredecorum things and we can't, you
know foul language and thingsbut the more authentic I can be
(46:04):
inside, outside of work andeverywhere in between, the more
trustworthy I am and the morenaturally and loyally
followership will arrive.
So it changed my life.
And there was one final momentand then I'll just shut up and
listen is I gave a talk at Audi.
It's been well over a year now.
We're at the Q&A portion of thetalk and this is what really
hit home and was the final kindof straw for me to say this is
(46:28):
who you are, not just a workthing.
Q&a at the end, fella stands up, raises his hand, stands up,
big, big former division onefootball player, bald head, mr,
clean looking guy, reallyintimidating guy.
I'm like, oh shit, where's hegoing?
He?
Jay Johnson (46:44):
thinks I'm full of it.
Kyle McDowell (46:46):
He says in front of a group of like 70 executives
at Audi, he says this bookchanged my life.
Love hearing that he said, butmaybe not for the reasons.
You think these principles havechanged how I'm raising my
children, dude, I teared up.
I teared up in front of 70strangers.
Um, there was a stool behindthe podium at which I delivered
(47:08):
part of my speech.
I just sat back on the stooland I said I got nothing.
You guys, I'm.
I think my work here is doneand that was a really powerful,
important moment to me becauseit realized we set our own
ceilings as well, and I was.
I set out on this mission tochange the workplace and it's
now created this momentum thatI'm seeing and hearing from
readers that it's having similarimpacts in their personal lives
, which is just fuel to me, man,it keeps me going.
(47:31):
And when I say it changed mylife, I'm not.
There's no hyperbole there.
Jay Johnson (47:51):
It absolutely has changed my life or work-life
integration.
There is no two Kyles, there isno two Js.
You are a human being and youoperate in different
environments and contexts and,to try to put on, yes, there's
behaviors or social expectationsin different places, but you're
not a different person walkinginto those spaces.
Kyle McDowell (48:11):
Jay, why do we have two different vocabularies?
Unless you go home at the endof a long day and say hey, honey
, how'd you do on yourdeliverables today?
I think we could probably getinto the science of code
switching and the purpose behindit, but we might be in a long
conversation.
Our next gap you and I will dothis again, hopefully.
Jay Johnson (48:29):
Well, I would love to do this again and actually
dig into the 10 wheeze, becauseI think this is a really
powerful conversation and reallyinsightful.
You know, if you're thattrainer, if you're that coach
and you're sitting there andyou're wondering, hey, why are
things not necessarily easy forme in this L&D space right now
or in this talent managementspace, really be thinking about
(48:51):
that question of connection andI think that, kyle, you just did
such an incredible job settingthat standard of a North Star,
if we need to be connectedbefore we're actually going to
be fulfilled, happy, or whetheror not that check mark of
acquisition is going to actuallyhave meaning in our lives.
So I want to say thank you forthat.
Kyle McDowell (49:10):
It's my pleasure, thank you.
Jay Johnson (49:12):
Kyle, if our audience wanted to get in touch
with you, how would they reachout to you?
Kyle McDowell (49:16):
So I'm on essentially every social media
platform with the handle at KyleMcDowell Inc.
My website iskylemcdowellinccom as well.
The book is Begin With we.
It's available wherever booksare sold.
It seems like Amazon's probablythe easiest place to get it.
But listen, man, anytime I getan opportunity to share these
experiences and I never want tocome across that it's about me,
(49:40):
because it's not theseprinciples have taken on a life
of their own, and I'm just asteward kind of kind of helping
spread that word, and meetingfolks like you and having
conversations like this is theperfect way to do it, so I'm
eternally grateful, thank you.
Jay Johnson (49:54):
We're grateful for having you on the show and thank
you, kyle.
I look forward to our futureconversations and likewise,
thank you, audience, for tuninginto this episode of the talent
forge, where we are shaping thefuture of training and
development.
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