Richard Reid takes us on a fascinating journey from his classics degree and IT consulting days to his current role as a psychologist working with executives and organizations.
The discussion opens with a counterintuitive insight: being too polished in your presentation style can actually make people distrustful. Instead, Richard advocates for finding that sweet spot between authentic self-expression and professional delivery.
Whether you're looking to enhance your presence as a trainer, develop stronger connections with your team, or simply communicate more effectively, Richard's insights offer a refreshing blend of psychological depth and practical application. His emphasis on curiosity, authenticity, and psychological safety provides a framework for transforming not just how we present information, but how we connect with others on a fundamental human level.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are featuring RichardReid.
Welcome, richard.
Hi Jay, good to meet you, niceto meet you as well, and I'm
super excited about thisconversation.
You've got an incrediblebackstory and history.
Let's let the audience get toknow you just a little bit.
How did you find your way intothis talent development space?
Richard Reid (00:22):
Well, I actually started off in a funny kind of
way.
I did a degree in classics atuniversity, then fell into IT
and business consultancy andhated that and took a year out
and went traveling and ended upsharing a tent in Patagonia with
a psychiatrist from Wales.
You couldn't make this stuff up.
(00:43):
We started talking and he said Ithink you'd be a really good
psychologist.
So when I came back to the UK,I retrained and I've been doing
that now for about 20 years,first and foremost starting off
with one-to-one therapy and,over the years, moving more into
the corporate space, workingwith entrepreneurs, working with
organizations, really lookingat their culture, their
(01:05):
behaviors and how it is they canoptimize performance.
Jay Johnson (01:08):
Okay, so you moved from IT and you know probably
some sort of engineering there,to kind of human engineering.
What was that transition like,like what was going through your
mind?
Richard Reid (01:20):
during that time.
Well, the IT thing was really,for one, a better idea.
You know there's only so manythings you can do with a
classics degree, so I sort offell into that um.
But the part that I reallyenjoyed about it was, um, the
people aspect of it.
So I've never, despite workingin it for several years I'm not
really a techie.
I was always the guy who wouldbe the conduit between the
(01:41):
techies and the rest of theorganization.
So so for me it's always beenabout human interaction and
understanding what works, howyou can put people at ease, how
you can connect with what'simportant to people.
Jay Johnson (01:53):
That's incredible.
So that must have been a funtransition, but the background
in people and just sort ofhaving that passion I'm sure
really kind of facilitated thatway forward.
I want to dig into somethingthat I think is going to be so
useful for our audience here onthe Talent Forge and you talk
quite a bit about body language.
(02:15):
Now, as a trainer and as acoach, you're standing in front
of a room or, if it's virtual,you're sitting across, hopefully
not looking at a completelyblank screen, but maybe being
able to see some differentthings.
Let's start this conversationoff around body language.
Richard, what would you suggestfor those emerging trainers?
How might they be able tomanage that effectively, or what
(02:37):
are some tips or tactics thatyou might be able to share to
help them out?
Richard Reid (02:41):
Yeah, good question.
So I think first and foremostit's about self awareness, and a
lot of the time we do thingswithout thinking about it, and
if somebody sort of tapped youon the shoulder and said, why
did you just do that A lot oftime we wouldn't be able to
answer that.
So I think it's building thatself awareness and it's then you
can start to identify what arethe areas that you might want to
change in order to have themost impact, and I think it's
(03:04):
striking a balance.
I think if you're too polished,that can make people wary.
You know, I can think of lotsof British politicians, for
example, have had lots oftraining in this area and it
actually is counterintuitivebecause people don't trust it.
So it's not about eradicatingwho you are, but it's about sort
of polishing the edges ever soslightly.
Jay Johnson (03:24):
Isn't that so interesting, though?
Like being too smooth, or youknow, it's not human, it's not
human when we're too smooth.
Richard Reid (03:32):
So I'm all for improvement, but I think it
needs to be within the contextof who you, you genuinely are at
the heart of yourself, and ifand if it's not, people are very
, very good at looking throughthat and it actually diminishes
the amount of trust andconnection that people have with
you.
Jay Johnson (03:50):
I want to stick on something that you said about
that awareness.
I it's so important and yetit's seemingly so difficult.
I always mess with peoplewhenever I'm doing a you know a
presentation or anything likethat on compelling presentations
.
If I'm doing something, I'llask the audience.
I'll say, can you fold yourarms?
And you know all of them.
You know, obviously, we can allfold our arms.
(04:11):
Then I asked them to switchthem, and watching them switch
them is is like watching anewborn take its first step.
It's like they look at theirarms confused and it's just like
I'm like yep, they actuallyfold that way too.
You just don't do it and you'renot even aware of it too.
Let's dig into that just aminute, because I think that's
so important.
(04:31):
How can we improve our ownawareness you had mentioned you
know you tap somebody on ashoulder and say why'd you do
that?
How can we give ourselves thattap on the shoulder?
Richard Reid (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think the first thing is setting
the intention to do that beforeyou go into a situation.
Set the intention to noticemore of what you do, and I think
one thing that really helpswith that is slowing down.
You know, we do so many thingsin autopilot and at speed and
sometimes we've got to do that,but we do it by default a lot of
(05:03):
the time and that reallyaffects our interactions with
people, because we start towithout meaning to objectify
people, we don't see them inreal time, we don't pick up on
the nuances and, as aconsequence, we become very much
one tool for every job approach.
So that slowing down is reallyimportant because then you can
(05:24):
make more informed choices aboutwhat you choose to do in
response to what's happening.
So it's freshly baked theinteraction you're having are
freshly baked, rather thanthings that you are bringing by
default.
Jay Johnson (05:36):
You know, it's so interesting because I think
slowing down could help us in somany different ways, but it's
always as though we're floodedwith, you know, all these
signals and everything else.
Does our body language thensort of just kind of become a
little bit more autonomic?
You know, is it something that,because we think about the
movements, we have our skeletalmovements, our muscle movements
(05:57):
and you know where those areconnected inside of the brain?
And I know we're getting alittle deeper into the science
here but uh, you know, as westart to think about, um, just
generalized movement andmindfulness of that movement,
are we, are we sort of shiftinga little bit away from that
autonomic response?
Are we kind of literallycreating the conditions of being
(06:19):
present or more mindful thatway?
Richard Reid (06:22):
absolutely, and for me it comes down to the idea
of psychological safety.
So, generally speaking, peopleparticularly people who don't
know us they feel safer whenthey have more opportunity to
process what it is that we'redoing.
Uh, and particularly whenthere's a, there's a rhythm and
a pattern to it, and when we'reoperating at pace 10, things
tend to be more erratic.
(06:42):
Um, it's harder for people tokeep up with the flow of things,
so that's slowing down.
It's a great opportunity to bemore inclusive and also to adapt
to whatever the circumstancesmight be that are unfolding.
So we don't tend to do that allthat often.
It becomes very transactional,okay.
Jay Johnson (07:01):
So let me, let me shift this side again One more
time.
Here I'm now standing in frontof a room and I'm trying to set
my intention for being mindfulof my body language and now, all
of a sudden, I'm creating panic.
I'm like, oh my God, they'relooking at me, they're looking
at my face.
I got a smile.
I'm doing all of these crazythings to try to, you know, be
(07:23):
authentic but not be tooauthentic or overly polished.
How do we get out of our ownhead sometimes, because I know
that that can be a big thing.
We, right, we're, we are socialcreatures.
We look to other creatures, youknow, in our, in our species,
for cues and those types ofthings.
How can we make sure that we'renot overanalyzing but still
(07:46):
setting that intention in aproper, in an effective manner?
Richard Reid (07:52):
Yeah.
So I think we can setassumptions at the outset of
those interactions.
But I think we, you know, asyou've sort of pointed to there,
we have to check thoseassumptions as we progress
through that interaction.
But I think certainly we couldstart off by thinking about what
we think the audience needsfrom us, what the situation
needs from us, and then use thatto inform how it is that we use
(08:14):
our body language and the kindof energy and emotions that we
want to create.
And you see this quite a lotwhen people are giving
presentations that they're veryheavily caught up in the content
of what they're delivering butthey're making assumptions about
what is relevant to theaudience and assumptions about
what the audience will then takeaway from that information and
(08:37):
act on.
So we've got to think aboutwhat do we want to invest in
this interaction and what arethe action points that we want
people to take away and thatwill then inform how we then use
our body language, how we useour words, how we use our voice.
You know voice is often anunderestimated part of our
interaction.
You think about animals.
(08:58):
Animals don't necessarilyunderstand the words that we use
, but they understand the toneand the pitch and the pace and
the energy that's connected withthat, and it's exactly the same
with humans.
You know, over time we've lostconnection with the fact that
essentially we're sophisticatedanimals and we need to get back
to remembering that.
Jay Johnson (09:16):
Well, you know and I love that you say that,
because tone is one of thosethings where we know how
important it is If you've evergotten that text message that
just says okay, and how wepersonally read that tone,
that's a great way to get me togo from zero to 11 in like six
seconds because I read that.
But I do know a number offriends and colleagues where
(09:39):
it's just like yeah, okay, andthat's the tone that they
intended behind it, despite thefact that I misread it.
You know, when we're thinkingabout something like tone and
inflection, it's alwaysastounding to me and I want to
dig into you and your backgroundand your knowledge here.
We have the ability toinfluence other people's mood
(10:01):
affect and their entireexperience simply by monitoring
our tone and inflection.
We can get them really excitedif we get talking fast and bring
the tone up and we can put themto sleep with our tone going
low and slow.
So you know, as a trainer, as acoach, as somebody who's trying
(10:23):
to build influence with theaudience, what would be some of
your recommendations to reallykind of zero in on that sweet
spot of tone and inflection?
Richard Reid (10:34):
Yeah.
So first of all, I go back tothe point I made before what is
the purpose of your presentationor your training?
What is it that you're tryingto evoke in the audience and
that will then inform how it isthat you can use your voice?
One of the things thatsometimes gets in the way of
(10:55):
that is not just the speed thatwe speak at, but also the
complexity of the sentences thatwe use.
So a lot of the time we usevery long sentences that don't
naturally lend themselves toparticular emphasis in how we
use our voice.
So shorter sentences not onlymakes it easier to follow what
we're saying, but it also givesus more opportunity to choose
(11:17):
about how we say it.
And those shorter sentences arealso useful because we can have
the pause.
And the pause, for many people,feels like I'm not doing
anything, nothing's happening.
But the pause is so importantfor for a number of reasons
firstly, to draw breath, tothink about how we want to
present the next sentence, butalso in terms of audience
(11:39):
interaction yeah, if I'm talkingat you, I don't know how my
message is landing.
The pause is an opportunity forpeople to reflect on what I've
said, to make comments, askquestions, but also for me to
start to just gauge the energyand and the bodily responses of
other people pauses are alwaysthat scary thing for that
trainer.
Jay Johnson (11:58):
It's like why am I silence?
We are so uncomfortable withsilence.
Do you have any insight?
Is what is it about silencethat really just absolutely
makes people uncomfortable?
Richard Reid (12:12):
Yeah, I think silence is a leap of faith,
isn't it?
And if you think about thehuman brain, it's very geared
towards doing rather than being.
That's our natural place to be,towards doing rather than being
.
That's our natural place to be,and for many of us, we often
(12:34):
feel we need to prove ourexistence in interaction by
delivering something, and apause can feel quite passive,
but actually it adds atremendous amount of value.
If you're doing it all the time, that might be a little bit
strange, but now and again, usedin a deliberate way and that
might be a little bit strange,but now and again, used in a
deliberate way, it's immenselypowerful.
You know and I speak from theposition of, first and foremost,
being a therapist and so oftenthe biggest insights come when I
(12:55):
hold back.
Yeah, if I take people at theirfirst comment and move forward
with that, sometimes that works,but it often leaves a missed
opportunity behind.
Yeah, how often do we getpeople's full attention and
opportunities to really expressourselves?
Not very often, so people willoften say the first thing that
(13:17):
comes into their head withoutthen reflecting and having an
opportunity to qualify that.
So really, really important ifwe want to get those deeper
conversations.
Jay Johnson (13:26):
Huge.
So I am not a clinicaltherapist, but it is exactly
what I teach in negotiations, insales and everything else.
I want to really draw outsomething you said and I'm going
to borrow this and I will giveyou full credit for it Silence
is a leap of faith.
I don't know that I have heardthat more brilliantly stated.
(13:50):
Get that into a book, richard,because that is incredible.
Silence is a leap of faith andI love how you framed this with.
If we're really considerate, ifwe're empathetic to what our
audience needs, what they want,how they're interacting with us
and what message they need totake away from us.
That's going to influence howwe demonstrate our body language
(14:13):
, how we're going to demonstrateour tone and inflection and,
importantly, how we're going tobe comfortable with that silence
.
So powerful, so powerful.
(14:43):
All right.
So I have, you know, we have anumber of emotions and and I've
I've actually been doing a lotof research into emotional
intelligence, particularly likehow emotions are made.
So looking at the neurobiologyof emotions, so going a little
bit deeper than just the, say,standard Daniel Goleman, let's
read you know, emotion 2.0.
(15:05):
So really getting into thefundamental neuroscience of it,
and it is so fascinating howcomplex our, our, our emotional
systems are.
But let's, let's take it to theclassify, or even explain
(15:31):
emotion.
Richard Reid (15:34):
I think people really struggle.
They really struggle Men morethan women but people in general
struggle to express theiremotions or qualify their
emotions, and this is why theiremotions or qualify their
emotions.
And this is why this is anotherreason why the pause is really
important, because actually, Imay not know what I'm feeling or
I might need time to reflect onwhat I'm feeling.
(15:57):
And so often you think aboutour interactions with people.
They exist at a verysuperficial level.
If somebody asks me how are youdoing, they don't want to hear
about all my problems, they wantthe abridged version, they want
the polite version of what'sgoing on.
So, actually, when we do get anopportunity to really express
ourselves, we don't always takethat opportunity because we
(16:17):
think, well, surely you justwant a quick version of what's
going on.
So this is why pausing andsometimes reflecting back what
we think is going on for peopleis really, really important.
So, for example, when somebodysays something, maybe commenting
on the body language or theenergy that you experience when
they're saying that.
So, for example, you seemreally excited when you talk
about that, or you seem a bitworried when you're saying that.
(16:39):
So deepening that conversationis really important.
And again, a bit like what wewere just talking about in terms
of silence.
It's an opportunity to createsomething.
It's not me talking at you andyou talking to me.
We're creating something andbecause that's unscripted, that
can be very scary for people.
(16:59):
Most people feel comfortablewhen they know how the
conversation is going to go,what we're going to talk about,
what I can expect from you.
So to do that is really to tieinto the idea of leap of faith.
I don't know where thisconversation is going to go, but
we're going to see andsomething interesting and
exciting is going to come fromthat.
Jay Johnson (17:16):
I love what you said.
There, too, it seems that youare excited, and that's actually
something that I've beenworking with trainers on doing
is when they identify some kindof reaction from the body
language, from the crowd itseems, it sounds, it appears and
it could be any of those three.
But being able to label whatthey perceive and then dropping
(17:41):
silence to follow, that givesthe opportunity for the audience
to reflect, respond.
I noticed you know, I noticedyou really kind of reacted to
this.
It seems to me that you mightbe frustrated by this content,
or it seems to me I should spendmore time here and then gauging
a response.
So I really love that you drewthat out.
Now here's one of the thingsthat I've found across the
(18:05):
different research capacities isthat people are really bad at
nuancing the difference betweenwhat we would consider very
similar emotions, whichobviously have very different
impacts, so things like I'mhappy versus I'm content.
What does that mean?
How couldn't we as humansbecause when we think about the
(18:29):
emotion wheel and the complexitythat it extends out, extends
out, extends out what would besome of your best advice for
maybe learning the deeperaspects of some of those
emotions?
Obviously getting in there andhaving deeper conversations or
even trying to.
But what are some other waysthat we can really lean into
(18:50):
that emotional complexity?
Richard Reid (18:53):
Well, I think the emotional world that you've just
touched on is one of thosethings, because I think for most
of us, we have a very limitedvocabulary around emotions.
So actually exploring thosewords, trying to apply those
words to situations, is reallyimportant.
But again, you think about lifein general.
We're often socialized,particularly as men, not to
(19:16):
express our emotions, or life issimply so busy and so fast.
So I think it's also aboutcarving out time to explore
these things, and mindfulness isa great opportunity for that,
and it doesn't have to besitting down for an hour
completely removed from theworld.
One of the things that I oftentalk to people about is
transitions.
So I've just got off the phoneto a client.
(19:38):
I'm about to go into a meeting.
Even just taking 20 or 30seconds to take stock allows you
an opportunity to notice thosesmaller emerging emotions, and a
lot of the time we're okay atrecognizing the big emotions.
I'm really angry, I'm reallyexcited, but it's those subtle
emotions.
So, even if I can't label it,just knowing there's something,
(20:02):
there's something that feelsslightly out of kilter,
something about that lastconversation that I need to
reflect on, because when wedon't do that, some of these
things accumulate and you knowwe might get to the end of the
day and we don't feel great andwe can no longer ascribe those
reactions to any particularcircumstance.
Jay Johnson (20:22):
So trying to do some of this in real time, even
if it's just those 20, 30 secondtransitions, is a great
opportunity to connect with thatin more detail I love that, you
know, because a lot of timeswhen we think about doing, uh,
deep emotional work, or whenwe're even thinking about, you
know, shifting some kind ofmindset, it's it's always we
(20:43):
look at that and it's it's thetop of mount everest, right,
like it's, like my gosh, that'sso much work we got to do that.
I love that you brought that to20 or 30 seconds of reflection,
because anybody can do that.
We can literally do that rightbefore we get onto the call.
It's something that's soaccessible and if it's easy from
my behavioral science side, ifit's easy, people will do it.
Richard Reid (21:10):
If it's not easy, they're going to do everything
they can to not do it Exactly.
I work with lots of busy execsand they haven't got time to do
all these big things.
Even if they're stressed, theycome for you with stress.
That's stressful for them tohave to implement new strategies
.
So 20 or 30 seconds is not abig ask.
It's an opportunity, as we said, to connect with your emotions
and even if you can't managethose emotions fully in that
moment, if you're aware thatthey exist, you can at least be
(21:31):
more measured in your nextinteraction.
Because one of the things thatoften happens is we have
emotional leakage, so we takethings from one experience into
another experience where theymay not be applicable or helpful
or helpful.
So at least knowing it's theremeans you know.
If you're angry from the lastconversation.
Jay Johnson (21:48):
Noticing that might mean you take extra steps to
make sure that doesn't spillinto the next conversation,
slowing down you know I'venaturally done that and didn't
realize that I was doing that,because there's been points in
times where I've gotten reallyfrustrated.
You know, maybe maybe I got acall from uh, maybe I got a call
from a family member orsomething Just set me off to a
real frustration.
(22:09):
I'm like, okay, in 30 secondsI'm jumping on and this didn't
actually happen today but youknow, in 30 seconds I'm jumping
on to a podcast with RichardReed.
I cannot bring that into here.
Let me just acknowledge it, setthis aside.
Cannot bring that into here.
Let me just acknowledge it, setthis aside.
(22:30):
In the next 30 to 40 minutesI'll come back to this and I'll
process it at that point in time.
And literally that 30 secondsof saying I'm acknowledging you
emotion, you exist, you arecertainly something that's
affecting me, but I can't letyou affect me in my work right
this minute.
But I am going to come back toyou and it does.
For some reason it really feelslike I've set that on the shelf
(22:52):
.
It knows I'm coming back, soit's not nagging me, it's not
frustrating me.
And then all of a sudden, I canstep into whatever the next
piece is in my more natural sortof authentic self.
And then, sure enough, as soonas it finishes I get back, I
grab that off the shelf.
I'm like, oh, I'm frustratedagain.
Richard Reid (23:12):
But there's a process around it, and I think
this is really interestingbecause for me, one of the
things about the brain is thatit's a bit like a small child.
It wants what it wants rightnow.
And if you can set that rhythmwhere you say, look, I hear you,
you can set that rhythm whereyou say, look, I hear you, you
can have that ice cream, but youhave your ice cream when you've
done your homework.
Delaying that that process, notignoring the process, delaying
(23:33):
the process when you do thatconsistently, the brain starts
to trust, it knows that it'sgoing to get that attention that
it needs at some point, and soit relax, it doesn't feel it's
got to be front of mind all thetime.
Jay Johnson (23:48):
And I do tend to find that when I come back to
whatever that emotion is, itfeels less hot, it feels less
intense, even if I was really,really frustrated.
If I'm able to kind of set thataside, acknowledge it, put it
away for a minute, when I comeback to it I really do feel as
though I'm coming back to itwith a little bit more logic.
Maybe and don't get me wrongthere's times where it's like,
(24:10):
yeah, right, I'm, I'm, I'm backinto this emotion and I'm
feeling it, but it just doesn'tfeel quite as intense as it may
have when I first put it on theshelf.
Is that a normal reaction?
Richard Reid (24:27):
Absolutely.
So.
You mentioned that, umDanielman earlier.
You know this is kind of danielgoldman territory really and
and um, um and and danielcanneman as well.
So this idea of, uh, you know,system one and and system two,
so slowing down, it's a bit likethe pause when I don't act on
an impulse straight away, Ishift to a different part of
part of the brain and get a verydifferent response, you know.
So, even if there's somethingthat I do need to address, I'll
(24:50):
do it in a way which is like tobe more constructive, more
inclusive and not have to spendlots of time picking up the
pieces afterwards.
And I think this is often oneof the problems that you know,
when we've got that emotionalleakage and we don't recognize
it or do something to toacknowledge it, it causes
problems in the next, nextinteraction.
It rolls into other things.
So the the pause is massivelyimportant.
(25:11):
Again, it feels so obvious thatthat a lot of time we don't do
it, and for me it's often thereally obvious things which are
are the things we need to do.
Jay Johnson (25:21):
We need to do them more consistently yeah, I love
how he framed that as sort ofthe low road and the high road
of how we manage, because thatis one of those things where it
had kind of stuck in my brain of, okay, am I taking the low road
right now, Am I taking the highroad right now?
Which one do I want?
How do I want to show up inthis moment and kind of taking
(25:42):
that pause, just like you said,gives that momentary reflection
of, okay, I need to be at mybest in this next meeting.
This can be handled at adifferent time and brings back
that sort of cognitive, rationalcerebral cortex function of
okay, I probably don't need tothrow this plate across the room
at this moment in time.
(26:04):
We've all been there, right.
So, as a trainer and as a coach, for our audience's sake, when
we're thinking about being ableto better understand emotions,
if you're coaching, it's prettyclear where this can be really
powerful, right, being able tounderstand and maybe call out
some of the emotions that you'reseeing in the person that
you're coaching.
In a training room, it might bea little bit more different to
(26:27):
nuance each person's individualemotion because they're going to
all experience that from theirown personal lens, from their
own personal experiences, fromtheir own personal traumas, et
cetera.
What would be maybe a thoughtprocess for me, Richard?
How might I, as a trainer, ifI've got a group of 20 people?
How might I, as a trainer, ifI've got a group of 20 people
and I'm seeing, obviously, abarrage of different emotions?
(26:49):
Or and maybe they're you knowyou, obviously I make a joke and
everybody kind of laughs andgiggles.
The one person over theredoesn't, so maybe they're not
having a great time or whatever.
How do I manage mass emotionsin a world where I'm standing on
a stage or I'm standing infront of a room?
Richard Reid (27:13):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a.
It's a really tricky one andobviously it's not practical to
go around everybody individually.
But one of the things that Ioften use in those situations is
when I'm getting the sense thatthere might be an emotion, or
when we've just done somethingthat might be quite um,
provocative or thoughtprovokingfor people.
Um, I will often get them insmaller groups and get them to
share their experience withinthose smaller groups and even if
we're then not directly feedingthat back into what we do,
(27:37):
often that helps people to umprocess what's going on for them
, um, because they've gotsomebody to bounce it off.
When we get a um a person tobounce something off, it helps
us to connect with our emotionmore.
Yeah, and then it might be thatduring the breaks or the
intervals or the smaller groupexercise, I might go around
those groups and just get asense, check of what's going on
(27:59):
for people.
It's really mobilizing thosesmaller groups within the group.
Jay Johnson (28:05):
And that's brilliant, because what you're
essentially doing jigsawing thatout.
So that way you've got smallgroup, small group, small group
and then obviously being able tobring that back, you can
probably get a reasonablesynthesis of the entire room.
So when you find yourself andI've seen this, so I'll share
just a little backstory on thisOne of the trainings that I've
(28:27):
done in the past is on influenceand how to create the
conditions of influence.
Leaning heavily into DrCialdini's work and even looking
at things like social proof,which in Cialdini's work one of
the things he references is theimpact of and just for the
audience, I am going to use sortof a sensitive topic area here
(28:52):
on suicide.
So if that is something thattriggers you, please give me
just a moment.
I want to give you a second tokind of acknowledge that.
But in Cialdini's work he talksabout how social proof can
actually create the conditionsfor normalizing behaviors such
as suicide.
When we see a celebrity in thepaper or when we see somebody
(29:14):
else.
You know that.
We know that we identify withor connect with when we see that
occur, that that can create theconditions for other people
having those types of ideations.
Now, when I talk about influence, and I talk about the dangers
of influence and the power ofinfluence in social.
That's obviously something thatcan bring the energy in a room
(29:36):
down, and my question for you iswhen we find ourselves getting
into some of that deeperterritory, or even if it's
really working with somebody andthem drawing their own personal
experiences, their traumas,their emotions out as a trainer
or a coach, how might we be ableto level that line?
Or should we?
(29:57):
You know, is it something thatwe want to try to bring them
back up and spike them, and oris it something that we want to
give them space to explore?
And obviously this is going tobe very contextual, based on the
situation.
But what are your thoughts onthat, richard?
Richard Reid (30:12):
Yeah, I think it does very much depend on what it
is you're trying to achievewith the exercise.
But I think, provided it'srelevant, then I think it is
important to give people time torecognise and adapt to whatever
it is that they're feeling and,if appropriate, to bring that
(30:32):
into the discussion.
But I think there needs to be alimit to it.
Particularly if it's sort oflow emotions, that can be quite
tiring, it can drag everybodydown and it might mean that you
sort of open things up that youcan't contain within that group
environment.
So I will sometimes let thosethings run for a little bit
within a session, but then if itfeels that actually this is
(30:54):
going to take us too much offtrack, then I might do something
to lift the mood.
One of the things that I oftenuse is the work of Amy Cuddy.
I don't know if you know thework of Amy Cuddy, yep.
(31:17):
So just a very brief exercise iswhere we get people to change
their body state, to hold thatbody state for a couple of
minutes as a way of putting someboundaries around what has gone
before, and and having having abit of a reset doesn't mean
that we're sweeping it under thecarpet, but we are containing
it.
Yeah, if you've got sort of agroup of, you know, 50 people,
100 people, it's very hard tomanage everybody's emotions.
So I think that's reallyimportant, but also to to put
some caveats around um the workthat you might be doing as well.
So, just as you've done amoment ago, just to give people
(31:38):
forewarning of what it is thatwe're about to do, so they can
make choices in terms of wherethey want to go within that
group setting, given that theymight not get that one-to-one
support that they need.
So really, really importantthat people have that in advance
so they can make those choices.
Jay Johnson (31:57):
That's some excellent advice there.
So you know when we think aboutbringing the human aspect into
the training and this is goingto be my overall general
question, right?
So this is my all right,richard, this is your chance.
What's on the top of your mindthat you would love to share
with a trainer, a coach, an HRprofessional?
(32:20):
What are some things that wereally need to be thinking?
If I was to say, could you giveus just a couple of your top
level tips, tactics, in whateverspace, whether it's in
emotional intelligence, whetherit's in the body language, tone,
inflection or somethingcompletely different, what are
your best tips and tactics thatour audience would be able to
kind of think about, reflectupon and take into their next
(32:44):
levels of talent development?
Richard Reid (32:46):
Yeah, yeah, I think the biggest thing for me
is psychological safety.
How is it that we can makepeople feel safe enough to
really acknowledge what it isthey need, what it is that
they're experiencing?
Because then you can have moreauthentic conversations.
And I think too often becausewe're we're not going into these
(33:06):
conversations having thoughtabout what we we want to achieve
, or maybe we're trying to betoo prescriptive in what we're
trying to do, we're not reallymeeting people as individuals.
We we're objectifying them, andthat tends to be most people's
experience of the world, so it'svery easy for us to play into
that narrative.
So I think slowing down,showing curiosity for people's
(33:30):
positions is really reallyimportant Understanding more
about where they're coming from,what's of primary importance
for them, before you start tooffer solutions.
And even if you know the answer, you know the solutions they
need.
How you position thosesolutions will determine whether
people buy into those and seethose as the right fit for them.
(33:51):
So understanding people's hopesand fears, understanding
people's idioms, use of language, all those sorts of things are
really really important if wewant to pitch our message in the
right way.
So, whether that's working inHR, whether that's in mental
health, whether that's intraining.
I may know why what I want todo is important, why it's
valuable, but it doesn'tnecessarily follow that other
(34:13):
people do.
So adapting the message to theaudience is really important and
that takes a degree of courageand, as I said before, a leap of
faith, because when you startto open things up, there are no
obvious rules.
Conversations can go in anumber of different directions
and most people find that quitescary.
So doing that in small ways andbuilding your confidence up
with it is really important.
(34:34):
You can hold that spacewherever the conversation might
go.
Jay Johnson (34:42):
That's brilliant.
You know it's interesting withpsychological safety and I'm
digging on this for just amoment.
It really feels likepsychological safety is very
much like trust, right, like ittakes a little while for you to
build it up and how quickly youcan lose it.
You know, when you're in one ofthose spaces and I've seen this
occur in a number of differentspaces where either you've got a
tense conversation in thefacilitation and somebody you
(35:05):
know, the manager shuts down oneof the employees in the middle
of that and all of a sudden youcan just sense the psychological
safety has been sucked out ofthat room.
Since the psychological safetyhas been sucked out of that room
, what would be?
How do we recover from that?
As a trainer, as a facilitator,as a coach?
(35:27):
What would be some ways thatwhen we see those violations of
authenticity or those violationsof somebody bringing themselves
in, feeling safe, putting itout there, and then all of a
sudden getting smacked down, notnecessarily by the trainer or
the facilitator but by somebodyelse in the space, how might we
be able to handle that in aprofessional, graceful,
courteous manner?
That maybe helps to start theprocess of rebuilding that
(35:49):
psychological safety?
Richard Reid (35:50):
Yeah, interesting question.
I think the tendency in thosesort of situations is people
recognize something's gone wrongand they tend to speed up and
they tend to do more and and, asa consequence, dig that hole
deeper in a lot of cases.
So I think it's again, it'sthis idea of slowing down,
pausing, so let's take stock ofwhere we are before we decide
(36:13):
where we're going to go next.
So that might be, you know,using skills like immediacy I
sense that you're feelingfrustrated at this point, or how
are you feeling at this pointlet's take a moment just to
reflect, and doing that meansthat we don't plow through
without recognizing somebody'semotions, and sometimes what we
(36:34):
might get back might beuncomfortable to hear, but it's
an opportunity to to reconnectand and to indicate to somebody
actually I we might have got offto a bad start, but I but I
care about what you're thinkingand I want to make sure that
this gives you what you need.
Yeah, and I think you know wecan all be clumsy in in our
interactions, but I think owningthat and and and showing that,
(36:58):
despite what we might have saidor done, that actually we
genuinely care is is really,really important.
So have the humility to be ableto acknowledge that.
If that, if that's the case,and I think that go.
That goes a long way, andactually it's.
It tends to be a rarity.
Most people plow on regardless,and that's most people's
experience the world.
So, pulling from that,acknowledging when there's a
(37:20):
difficulty, collaborating,showing curiosity, those are all
the skills that I think we needfor all kinds of interactions,
and they're not there enough ofthe time.
Jay Johnson (37:31):
You know it's so interesting.
You say that because you'reright A lot of us plow through
or we push past it because wewant to just get it in the rear
view mirror and we don't want todeal with it.
But that is going back to, Ithink, exactly what you said the
(37:58):
idea of having to manageemotions from others as well as
our own reactions to that isjust almost too much to bear.
But to hear you and I thinkthat this is such an excellent
tip that you've shared stay inthe space, take the leap of
faith.
I'm telling you, I really,really love that framing, that
silence is that leap of faith.
Take that leap of faith, engage, and what's going to come out
(38:18):
of that is probably going to befar more impactful, engaging and
meaningful to the audience thanpotentially our own fear of
what if I can't control thissituation or anything else.
Richard Reid (38:34):
Absolutely, you know.
I think you know in terms ofcoaching and particularly in
therapy.
So so my initial training intherapy was trauma therapy and
some of the stories that peopleused to bring you know.
Particularly in the early days,my reaction would be how, how
on earth do I deal with this?
This is just so outside ofanything I've ever heard before
and self-regulating.
(38:55):
Regulating my reaction to thatand holding that space and just
showing curiosity in the absenceof knowing what to do with it,
was actually more powerful,because you take the
conversation deeper and when youdo offer expertise, you're
doing it in a way which isentirely tailored to that
person's experience, and that'sso important.
You think about organizations,all the provisions that they
(39:19):
have in terms of mental healthsupport, all these kinds of
things.
It's the psychological safetywhich is the glue between all
those things.
Jay Johnson (39:25):
Brilliant.
Richard.
I was excited for thisconversation and it did not
disappoint.
You have given so much insightand some incredible tips and
tactics to the audience here atthe Talent Forge.
Richard Reid (39:40):
If our audience wanted to reach out to you and
connect.
How might they be able to get ahold of you?
Well, they're welcome to visitmy website, which is
richard-reidcom, or you canemail me it's richard at
pinnaclewellbeingservicescom.
Jay Johnson (39:51):
Well, thank you so much for joining us here today,
richard.
This has really been aninsightful conversation.
My pleasure, really enjoyed it.
And thank you, audience, fortuning into this episode of the
Talent Forge, where we areshaping the future of training
and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are featuring RichardReid.
Welcome, richard.
Hi Jay, good to meet you, niceto meet you as well, and I'm
super excited about thisconversation.
You've got an incrediblebackstory and history.
Let's let the audience get toknow you just a little bit.
How did you find your way intothis talent development space?
Richard Reid (00:22):
Well, I actually started off in a funny kind of
way.
I did a degree in classics atuniversity, then fell into IT
and business consultancy andhated that and took a year out
and went traveling and ended upsharing a tent in Patagonia with
a psychiatrist from Wales.
You couldn't make this stuff up.
(00:43):
We started talking and he said Ithink you'd be a really good
psychologist.
So when I came back to the UK,I retrained and I've been doing
that now for about 20 years,first and foremost starting off
with one-to-one therapy and,over the years, moving more into
the corporate space, workingwith entrepreneurs, working with
organizations, really lookingat their culture, their
(01:05):
behaviors and how it is they canoptimize performance.
Jay Johnson (01:08):
Okay, so you moved from IT and you know probably
some sort of engineering there,to kind of human engineering.
What was that transition like,like what was going through your
mind?
Richard Reid (01:20):
during that time.
Well, the IT thing was really,for one, a better idea.
You know there's only so manythings you can do with a
classics degree, so I sort offell into that um.
But the part that I reallyenjoyed about it was, um, the
people aspect of it.
So I've never, despite workingin it for several years I'm not
really a techie.
I was always the guy who wouldbe the conduit between the
(01:41):
techies and the rest of theorganization.
So so for me it's always beenabout human interaction and
understanding what works, howyou can put people at ease, how
you can connect with what'simportant to people.
Jay Johnson (01:53):
That's incredible.
So that must have been a funtransition, but the background
in people and just sort ofhaving that passion I'm sure
really kind of facilitated thatway forward.
I want to dig into somethingthat I think is going to be so
useful for our audience here onthe Talent Forge and you talk
quite a bit about body language.
(02:15):
Now, as a trainer and as acoach, you're standing in front
of a room or, if it's virtual,you're sitting across, hopefully
not looking at a completelyblank screen, but maybe being
able to see some differentthings.
Let's start this conversationoff around body language.
Richard, what would you suggestfor those emerging trainers?
How might they be able tomanage that effectively, or what
(02:37):
are some tips or tactics thatyou might be able to share to
help them out?
Richard Reid (02:41):
Yeah, good question.
So I think first and foremostit's about self awareness, and a
lot of the time we do thingswithout thinking about it, and
if somebody sort of tapped youon the shoulder and said, why
did you just do that A lot oftime we wouldn't be able to
answer that.
So I think it's building thatself awareness and it's then you
can start to identify what arethe areas that you might want to
change in order to have themost impact, and I think it's
(03:04):
striking a balance.
I think if you're too polished,that can make people wary.
You know, I can think of lotsof British politicians, for
example, have had lots oftraining in this area and it
actually is counterintuitivebecause people don't trust it.
So it's not about eradicatingwho you are, but it's about sort
of polishing the edges ever soslightly.
Jay Johnson (03:24):
Isn't that so interesting, though?
Like being too smooth, or youknow, it's not human, it's not
human when we're too smooth.
Richard Reid (03:32):
So I'm all for improvement, but I think it
needs to be within the contextof who you, you genuinely are at
the heart of yourself, and ifand if it's not, people are very
, very good at looking throughthat and it actually diminishes
the amount of trust andconnection that people have with
you.
Jay Johnson (03:50):
I want to stick on something that you said about
that awareness.
I it's so important and yetit's seemingly so difficult.
I always mess with peoplewhenever I'm doing a you know a
presentation or anything likethat on compelling presentations
.
If I'm doing something, I'llask the audience.
I'll say, can you fold yourarms?
And you know all of them.
You know, obviously, we can allfold our arms.
(04:11):
Then I asked them to switchthem, and watching them switch
them is is like watching anewborn take its first step.
It's like they look at theirarms confused and it's just like
I'm like yep, they actuallyfold that way too.
You just don't do it and you'renot even aware of it too.
Let's dig into that just aminute, because I think that's
so important.
(04:31):
How can we improve our ownawareness you had mentioned you
know you tap somebody on ashoulder and say why'd you do
that?
How can we give ourselves thattap on the shoulder?
Richard Reid (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, I think the first thing is setting
the intention to do that beforeyou go into a situation.
Set the intention to noticemore of what you do, and I think
one thing that really helpswith that is slowing down.
You know, we do so many thingsin autopilot and at speed and
sometimes we've got to do that,but we do it by default a lot of
(05:03):
the time and that reallyaffects our interactions with
people, because we start towithout meaning to objectify
people, we don't see them inreal time, we don't pick up on
the nuances and, as aconsequence, we become very much
one tool for every job approach.
So that slowing down is reallyimportant because then you can
(05:24):
make more informed choices aboutwhat you choose to do in
response to what's happening.
So it's freshly baked theinteraction you're having are
freshly baked, rather thanthings that you are bringing by
default.
Jay Johnson (05:36):
You know, it's so interesting because I think
slowing down could help us in somany different ways, but it's
always as though we're floodedwith, you know, all these
signals and everything else.
Does our body language thensort of just kind of become a
little bit more autonomic?
You know, is it something that,because we think about the
movements, we have our skeletalmovements, our muscle movements
(05:57):
and you know where those areconnected inside of the brain?
And I know we're getting alittle deeper into the science
here but uh, you know, as westart to think about, um, just
generalized movement andmindfulness of that movement,
are we, are we sort of shiftinga little bit away from that
autonomic response?
Are we kind of literallycreating the conditions of being
(06:19):
present or more mindful thatway?
Richard Reid (06:22):
absolutely, and for me it comes down to the idea
of psychological safety.
So, generally speaking, peopleparticularly people who don't
know us they feel safer whenthey have more opportunity to
process what it is that we'redoing.
Uh, and particularly whenthere's a, there's a rhythm and
a pattern to it, and when we'reoperating at pace 10, things
tend to be more erratic.
(06:42):
Um, it's harder for people tokeep up with the flow of things,
so that's slowing down.
It's a great opportunity to bemore inclusive and also to adapt
to whatever the circumstancesmight be that are unfolding.
So we don't tend to do that allthat often.
It becomes very transactional,okay.
Jay Johnson (07:01):
So let me, let me shift this side again One more
time.
Here I'm now standing in frontof a room and I'm trying to set
my intention for being mindfulof my body language and now, all
of a sudden, I'm creating panic.
I'm like, oh my God, they'relooking at me, they're looking
at my face.
I got a smile.
I'm doing all of these crazythings to try to, you know, be
(07:23):
authentic but not be tooauthentic or overly polished.
How do we get out of our ownhead sometimes, because I know
that that can be a big thing.
We, right, we're, we are socialcreatures.
We look to other creatures, youknow, in our, in our species,
for cues and those types ofthings.
How can we make sure that we'renot overanalyzing but still
(07:46):
setting that intention in aproper, in an effective manner?
Richard Reid (07:52):
Yeah.
So I think we can setassumptions at the outset of
those interactions.
But I think we, you know, asyou've sort of pointed to there,
we have to check thoseassumptions as we progress
through that interaction.
But I think certainly we couldstart off by thinking about what
we think the audience needsfrom us, what the situation
needs from us, and then use thatto inform how it is that we use
(08:14):
our body language and the kindof energy and emotions that we
want to create.
And you see this quite a lotwhen people are giving
presentations that they're veryheavily caught up in the content
of what they're delivering butthey're making assumptions about
what is relevant to theaudience and assumptions about
what the audience will then takeaway from that information and
(08:37):
act on.
So we've got to think aboutwhat do we want to invest in
this interaction and what arethe action points that we want
people to take away and thatwill then inform how we then use
our body language, how we useour words, how we use our voice.
You know voice is often anunderestimated part of our
interaction.
You think about animals.
(08:58):
Animals don't necessarilyunderstand the words that we use
, but they understand the toneand the pitch and the pace and
the energy that's connected withthat, and it's exactly the same
with humans.
You know, over time we've lostconnection with the fact that
essentially we're sophisticatedanimals and we need to get back
to remembering that.
Jay Johnson (09:16):
Well, you know and I love that you say that,
because tone is one of thosethings where we know how
important it is If you've evergotten that text message that
just says okay, and how wepersonally read that tone,
that's a great way to get me togo from zero to 11 in like six
seconds because I read that.
But I do know a number offriends and colleagues where
(09:39):
it's just like yeah, okay, andthat's the tone that they
intended behind it, despite thefact that I misread it.
You know, when we're thinkingabout something like tone and
inflection, it's alwaysastounding to me and I want to
dig into you and your backgroundand your knowledge here.
We have the ability toinfluence other people's mood
(10:01):
affect and their entireexperience simply by monitoring
our tone and inflection.
We can get them really excitedif we get talking fast and bring
the tone up and we can put themto sleep with our tone going
low and slow.
So you know, as a trainer, as acoach, as somebody who's trying
(10:23):
to build influence with theaudience, what would be some of
your recommendations to reallykind of zero in on that sweet
spot of tone and inflection?
Richard Reid (10:34):
Yeah.
So first of all, I go back tothe point I made before what is
the purpose of your presentationor your training?
What is it that you're tryingto evoke in the audience and
that will then inform how it isthat you can use your voice?
One of the things thatsometimes gets in the way of
(10:55):
that is not just the speed thatwe speak at, but also the
complexity of the sentences thatwe use.
So a lot of the time we usevery long sentences that don't
naturally lend themselves toparticular emphasis in how we
use our voice.
So shorter sentences not onlymakes it easier to follow what
we're saying, but it also givesus more opportunity to choose
(11:17):
about how we say it.
And those shorter sentences arealso useful because we can have
the pause.
And the pause, for many people,feels like I'm not doing
anything, nothing's happening.
But the pause is so importantfor for a number of reasons
firstly, to draw breath, tothink about how we want to
present the next sentence, butalso in terms of audience
(11:39):
interaction yeah, if I'm talkingat you, I don't know how my
message is landing.
The pause is an opportunity forpeople to reflect on what I've
said, to make comments, askquestions, but also for me to
start to just gauge the energyand and the bodily responses of
other people pauses are alwaysthat scary thing for that
trainer.
Jay Johnson (11:58):
It's like why am I silence?
We are so uncomfortable withsilence.
Do you have any insight?
Is what is it about silencethat really just absolutely
makes people uncomfortable?
Richard Reid (12:12):
Yeah, I think silence is a leap of faith,
isn't it?
And if you think about thehuman brain, it's very geared
towards doing rather than being.
That's our natural place to be,towards doing rather than being
.
That's our natural place to be,and for many of us, we often
(12:34):
feel we need to prove ourexistence in interaction by
delivering something, and apause can feel quite passive,
but actually it adds atremendous amount of value.
If you're doing it all the time, that might be a little bit
strange, but now and again, usedin a deliberate way and that
might be a little bit strange,but now and again, used in a
deliberate way, it's immenselypowerful.
You know and I speak from theposition of, first and foremost,
being a therapist and so oftenthe biggest insights come when I
(12:55):
hold back.
Yeah, if I take people at theirfirst comment and move forward
with that, sometimes that works,but it often leaves a missed
opportunity behind.
Yeah, how often do we getpeople's full attention and
opportunities to really expressourselves?
Not very often, so people willoften say the first thing that
(13:17):
comes into their head withoutthen reflecting and having an
opportunity to qualify that.
So really, really important ifwe want to get those deeper
conversations.
Jay Johnson (13:26):
Huge.
So I am not a clinicaltherapist, but it is exactly
what I teach in negotiations, insales and everything else.
I want to really draw outsomething you said and I'm going
to borrow this and I will giveyou full credit for it Silence
is a leap of faith.
I don't know that I have heardthat more brilliantly stated.
(13:50):
Get that into a book, richard,because that is incredible.
Silence is a leap of faith andI love how you framed this with.
If we're really considerate, ifwe're empathetic to what our
audience needs, what they want,how they're interacting with us
and what message they need totake away from us.
That's going to influence howwe demonstrate our body language
(14:13):
, how we're going to demonstrateour tone and inflection and,
importantly, how we're going tobe comfortable with that silence
.
So powerful, so powerful.
(14:43):
All right.
So I have, you know, we have anumber of emotions and and I've
I've actually been doing a lotof research into emotional
intelligence, particularly likehow emotions are made.
So looking at the neurobiologyof emotions, so going a little
bit deeper than just the, say,standard Daniel Goleman, let's
read you know, emotion 2.0.
(15:05):
So really getting into thefundamental neuroscience of it,
and it is so fascinating howcomplex our, our, our emotional
systems are.
But let's, let's take it to theclassify, or even explain
(15:31):
emotion.
Richard Reid (15:34):
I think people really struggle.
They really struggle Men morethan women but people in general
struggle to express theiremotions or qualify their
emotions, and this is why theiremotions or qualify their
emotions.
And this is why this is anotherreason why the pause is really
important, because actually, Imay not know what I'm feeling or
I might need time to reflect onwhat I'm feeling.
(15:57):
And so often you think aboutour interactions with people.
They exist at a verysuperficial level.
If somebody asks me how are youdoing, they don't want to hear
about all my problems, they wantthe abridged version, they want
the polite version of what'sgoing on.
So, actually, when we do get anopportunity to really express
ourselves, we don't always takethat opportunity because we
(16:17):
think, well, surely you justwant a quick version of what's
going on.
So this is why pausing andsometimes reflecting back what
we think is going on for peopleis really, really important.
So, for example, when somebodysays something, maybe commenting
on the body language or theenergy that you experience when
they're saying that.
So, for example, you seemreally excited when you talk
about that, or you seem a bitworried when you're saying that.
(16:39):
So deepening that conversationis really important.
And again, a bit like what wewere just talking about in terms
of silence.
It's an opportunity to createsomething.
It's not me talking at you andyou talking to me.
We're creating something andbecause that's unscripted, that
can be very scary for people.
(16:59):
Most people feel comfortablewhen they know how the
conversation is going to go,what we're going to talk about,
what I can expect from you.
So to do that is really to tieinto the idea of leap of faith.
I don't know where thisconversation is going to go, but
we're going to see andsomething interesting and
exciting is going to come fromthat.
Jay Johnson (17:16):
I love what you said.
There, too, it seems that youare excited, and that's actually
something that I've beenworking with trainers on doing
is when they identify some kindof reaction from the body
language, from the crowd itseems, it sounds, it appears and
it could be any of those three.
But being able to label whatthey perceive and then dropping
(17:41):
silence to follow, that givesthe opportunity for the audience
to reflect, respond.
I noticed you know, I noticedyou really kind of reacted to
this.
It seems to me that you mightbe frustrated by this content,
or it seems to me I should spendmore time here and then gauging
a response.
So I really love that you drewthat out.
Now here's one of the thingsthat I've found across the
(18:05):
different research capacities isthat people are really bad at
nuancing the difference betweenwhat we would consider very
similar emotions, whichobviously have very different
impacts, so things like I'mhappy versus I'm content.
What does that mean?
How couldn't we as humansbecause when we think about the
(18:29):
emotion wheel and the complexitythat it extends out, extends
out, extends out what would besome of your best advice for
maybe learning the deeperaspects of some of those
emotions?
Obviously getting in there andhaving deeper conversations or
even trying to.
But what are some other waysthat we can really lean into
(18:50):
that emotional complexity?
Richard Reid (18:53):
Well, I think the emotional world that you've just
touched on is one of thosethings, because I think for most
of us, we have a very limitedvocabulary around emotions.
So actually exploring thosewords, trying to apply those
words to situations, is reallyimportant.
But again, you think about lifein general.
We're often socialized,particularly as men, not to
(19:16):
express our emotions, or life issimply so busy and so fast.
So I think it's also aboutcarving out time to explore
these things, and mindfulness isa great opportunity for that,
and it doesn't have to besitting down for an hour
completely removed from theworld.
One of the things that I oftentalk to people about is
transitions.
So I've just got off the phoneto a client.
(19:38):
I'm about to go into a meeting.
Even just taking 20 or 30seconds to take stock allows you
an opportunity to notice thosesmaller emerging emotions, and a
lot of the time we're okay atrecognizing the big emotions.
I'm really angry, I'm reallyexcited, but it's those subtle
emotions.
So, even if I can't label it,just knowing there's something,
(20:02):
there's something that feelsslightly out of kilter,
something about that lastconversation that I need to
reflect on, because when wedon't do that, some of these
things accumulate and you knowwe might get to the end of the
day and we don't feel great andwe can no longer ascribe those
reactions to any particularcircumstance.
Jay Johnson (20:22):
So trying to do some of this in real time, even
if it's just those 20, 30 secondtransitions, is a great
opportunity to connect with thatin more detail I love that, you
know, because a lot of timeswhen we think about doing, uh,
deep emotional work, or whenwe're even thinking about, you
know, shifting some kind ofmindset, it's it's always we
(20:43):
look at that and it's it's thetop of mount everest, right,
like it's, like my gosh, that'sso much work we got to do that.
I love that you brought that to20 or 30 seconds of reflection,
because anybody can do that.
We can literally do that rightbefore we get onto the call.
It's something that's soaccessible and if it's easy from
my behavioral science side, ifit's easy, people will do it.
Richard Reid (21:10):
If it's not easy, they're going to do everything
they can to not do it Exactly.
I work with lots of busy execsand they haven't got time to do
all these big things.
Even if they're stressed, theycome for you with stress.
That's stressful for them tohave to implement new strategies
.
So 20 or 30 seconds is not abig ask.
It's an opportunity, as we said, to connect with your emotions
and even if you can't managethose emotions fully in that
moment, if you're aware thatthey exist, you can at least be
(21:31):
more measured in your nextinteraction.
Because one of the things thatoften happens is we have
emotional leakage, so we takethings from one experience into
another experience where theymay not be applicable or helpful
or helpful.
So at least knowing it's theremeans you know.
If you're angry from the lastconversation.
Jay Johnson (21:48):
Noticing that might mean you take extra steps to
make sure that doesn't spillinto the next conversation,
slowing down you know I'venaturally done that and didn't
realize that I was doing that,because there's been points in
times where I've gotten reallyfrustrated.
You know, maybe maybe I got acall from uh, maybe I got a call
from a family member orsomething Just set me off to a
real frustration.
(22:09):
I'm like, okay, in 30 secondsI'm jumping on and this didn't
actually happen today but youknow, in 30 seconds I'm jumping
on to a podcast with RichardReed.
I cannot bring that into here.
Let me just acknowledge it, setthis aside.
Cannot bring that into here.
Let me just acknowledge it, setthis aside.
(22:30):
In the next 30 to 40 minutesI'll come back to this and I'll
process it at that point in time.
And literally that 30 secondsof saying I'm acknowledging you
emotion, you exist, you arecertainly something that's
affecting me, but I can't letyou affect me in my work right
this minute.
But I am going to come back toyou and it does.
For some reason it really feelslike I've set that on the shelf
(22:52):
.
It knows I'm coming back, soit's not nagging me, it's not
frustrating me.
And then all of a sudden, I canstep into whatever the next
piece is in my more natural sortof authentic self.
And then, sure enough, as soonas it finishes I get back, I
grab that off the shelf.
I'm like, oh, I'm frustratedagain.
Richard Reid (23:12):
But there's a process around it, and I think
this is really interestingbecause for me, one of the
things about the brain is thatit's a bit like a small child.
It wants what it wants rightnow.
And if you can set that rhythmwhere you say, look, I hear you,
you can set that rhythm whereyou say, look, I hear you, you
can have that ice cream, but youhave your ice cream when you've
done your homework.
Delaying that that process, notignoring the process, delaying
(23:33):
the process when you do thatconsistently, the brain starts
to trust, it knows that it'sgoing to get that attention that
it needs at some point, and soit relax, it doesn't feel it's
got to be front of mind all thetime.
Jay Johnson (23:48):
And I do tend to find that when I come back to
whatever that emotion is, itfeels less hot, it feels less
intense, even if I was really,really frustrated.
If I'm able to kind of set thataside, acknowledge it, put it
away for a minute, when I comeback to it I really do feel as
though I'm coming back to itwith a little bit more logic.
Maybe and don't get me wrongthere's times where it's like,
(24:10):
yeah, right, I'm, I'm, I'm backinto this emotion and I'm
feeling it, but it just doesn'tfeel quite as intense as it may
have when I first put it on theshelf.
Is that a normal reaction?
Richard Reid (24:27):
Absolutely.
So.
You mentioned that, umDanielman earlier.
You know this is kind of danielgoldman territory really and
and um, um and and danielcanneman as well.
So this idea of, uh, you know,system one and and system two,
so slowing down, it's a bit likethe pause when I don't act on
an impulse straight away, Ishift to a different part of
part of the brain and get a verydifferent response, you know.
So, even if there's somethingthat I do need to address, I'll
(24:50):
do it in a way which is like tobe more constructive, more
inclusive and not have to spendlots of time picking up the
pieces afterwards.
And I think this is often oneof the problems that you know,
when we've got that emotionalleakage and we don't recognize
it or do something to toacknowledge it, it causes
problems in the next, nextinteraction.
It rolls into other things.
So the the pause is massivelyimportant.
(25:11):
Again, it feels so obvious thatthat a lot of time we don't do
it, and for me it's often thereally obvious things which are
are the things we need to do.
Jay Johnson (25:21):
We need to do them more consistently yeah, I love
how he framed that as sort ofthe low road and the high road
of how we manage, because thatis one of those things where it
had kind of stuck in my brain of, okay, am I taking the low road
right now, Am I taking the highroad right now?
Which one do I want?
How do I want to show up inthis moment and kind of taking
(25:42):
that pause, just like you said,gives that momentary reflection
of, okay, I need to be at mybest in this next meeting.
This can be handled at adifferent time and brings back
that sort of cognitive, rationalcerebral cortex function of
okay, I probably don't need tothrow this plate across the room
at this moment in time.
(26:04):
We've all been there, right.
So, as a trainer and as a coach, for our audience's sake, when
we're thinking about being ableto better understand emotions,
if you're coaching, it's prettyclear where this can be really
powerful, right, being able tounderstand and maybe call out
some of the emotions that you'reseeing in the person that
you're coaching.
In a training room, it might bea little bit more different to
(26:27):
nuance each person's individualemotion because they're going to
all experience that from theirown personal lens, from their
own personal experiences, fromtheir own personal traumas, et
cetera.
What would be maybe a thoughtprocess for me, Richard?
How might I, as a trainer, ifI've got a group of 20 people?
How might I, as a trainer, ifI've got a group of 20 people
and I'm seeing, obviously, abarrage of different emotions?
(26:49):
Or and maybe they're you knowyou, obviously I make a joke and
everybody kind of laughs andgiggles.
The one person over theredoesn't, so maybe they're not
having a great time or whatever.
How do I manage mass emotionsin a world where I'm standing on
a stage or I'm standing infront of a room?
Richard Reid (27:13):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's a.
It's a really tricky one andobviously it's not practical to
go around everybody individually.
But one of the things that Ioften use in those situations is
when I'm getting the sense thatthere might be an emotion, or
when we've just done somethingthat might be quite um,
provocative or thoughtprovokingfor people.
Um, I will often get them insmaller groups and get them to
share their experience withinthose smaller groups and even if
we're then not directly feedingthat back into what we do,
(27:37):
often that helps people to umprocess what's going on for them
, um, because they've gotsomebody to bounce it off.
When we get a um a person tobounce something off, it helps
us to connect with our emotionmore.
Yeah, and then it might be thatduring the breaks or the
intervals or the smaller groupexercise, I might go around
those groups and just get asense, check of what's going on
(27:59):
for people.
It's really mobilizing thosesmaller groups within the group.
Jay Johnson (28:05):
And that's brilliant, because what you're
essentially doing jigsawing thatout.
So that way you've got smallgroup, small group, small group
and then obviously being able tobring that back, you can
probably get a reasonablesynthesis of the entire room.
So when you find yourself andI've seen this, so I'll share
just a little backstory on thisOne of the trainings that I've
(28:27):
done in the past is on influenceand how to create the
conditions of influence.
Leaning heavily into DrCialdini's work and even looking
at things like social proof,which in Cialdini's work one of
the things he references is theimpact of and just for the
audience, I am going to use sortof a sensitive topic area here
(28:52):
on suicide.
So if that is something thattriggers you, please give me
just a moment.
I want to give you a second tokind of acknowledge that.
But in Cialdini's work he talksabout how social proof can
actually create the conditionsfor normalizing behaviors such
as suicide.
When we see a celebrity in thepaper or when we see somebody
(29:14):
else.
You know that.
We know that we identify withor connect with when we see that
occur, that that can create theconditions for other people
having those types of ideations.
Now, when I talk about influence, and I talk about the dangers
of influence and the power ofinfluence in social.
That's obviously something thatcan bring the energy in a room
(29:36):
down, and my question for you iswhen we find ourselves getting
into some of that deeperterritory, or even if it's
really working with somebody andthem drawing their own personal
experiences, their traumas,their emotions out as a trainer
or a coach, how might we be ableto level that line?
Or should we?
(29:57):
You know, is it something thatwe want to try to bring them
back up and spike them, and oris it something that we want to
give them space to explore?
And obviously this is going tobe very contextual, based on the
situation.
But what are your thoughts onthat, richard?
Richard Reid (30:12):
Yeah, I think it does very much depend on what it
is you're trying to achievewith the exercise.
But I think, provided it'srelevant, then I think it is
important to give people time torecognise and adapt to whatever
it is that they're feeling and,if appropriate, to bring that
(30:32):
into the discussion.
But I think there needs to be alimit to it.
Particularly if it's sort oflow emotions, that can be quite
tiring, it can drag everybodydown and it might mean that you
sort of open things up that youcan't contain within that group
environment.
So I will sometimes let thosethings run for a little bit
within a session, but then if itfeels that actually this is
(30:54):
going to take us too much offtrack, then I might do something
to lift the mood.
One of the things that I oftenuse is the work of Amy Cuddy.
I don't know if you know thework of Amy Cuddy, yep.
(31:17):
So just a very brief exercise iswhere we get people to change
their body state, to hold thatbody state for a couple of
minutes as a way of putting someboundaries around what has gone
before, and and having having abit of a reset doesn't mean
that we're sweeping it under thecarpet, but we are containing
it.
Yeah, if you've got sort of agroup of, you know, 50 people,
100 people, it's very hard tomanage everybody's emotions.
So I think that's reallyimportant, but also to to put
some caveats around um the workthat you might be doing as well.
So, just as you've done amoment ago, just to give people
(31:38):
forewarning of what it is thatwe're about to do, so they can
make choices in terms of wherethey want to go within that
group setting, given that theymight not get that one-to-one
support that they need.
So really, really importantthat people have that in advance
so they can make those choices.
Jay Johnson (31:57):
That's some excellent advice there.
So you know when we think aboutbringing the human aspect into
the training and this is goingto be my overall general
question, right?
So this is my all right,richard, this is your chance.
What's on the top of your mindthat you would love to share
with a trainer, a coach, an HRprofessional?
(32:20):
What are some things that wereally need to be thinking?
If I was to say, could you giveus just a couple of your top
level tips, tactics, in whateverspace, whether it's in
emotional intelligence, whetherit's in the body language, tone,
inflection or somethingcompletely different, what are
your best tips and tactics thatour audience would be able to
kind of think about, reflectupon and take into their next
(32:44):
levels of talent development?
Richard Reid (32:46):
Yeah, yeah, I think the biggest thing for me
is psychological safety.
How is it that we can makepeople feel safe enough to
really acknowledge what it isthey need, what it is that
they're experiencing?
Because then you can have moreauthentic conversations.
And I think too often becausewe're we're not going into these
(33:06):
conversations having thoughtabout what we we want to achieve
, or maybe we're trying to betoo prescriptive in what we're
trying to do, we're not reallymeeting people as individuals.
We we're objectifying them, andthat tends to be most people's
experience of the world, so it'svery easy for us to play into
that narrative.
So I think slowing down,showing curiosity for people's
(33:30):
positions is really reallyimportant Understanding more
about where they're coming from,what's of primary importance
for them, before you start tooffer solutions.
And even if you know the answer, you know the solutions they
need.
How you position thosesolutions will determine whether
people buy into those and seethose as the right fit for them.
(33:51):
So understanding people's hopesand fears, understanding
people's idioms, use of language, all those sorts of things are
really really important if wewant to pitch our message in the
right way.
So, whether that's working inHR, whether that's in mental
health, whether that's intraining.
I may know why what I want todo is important, why it's
valuable, but it doesn'tnecessarily follow that other
(34:13):
people do.
So adapting the message to theaudience is really important and
that takes a degree of courageand, as I said before, a leap of
faith, because when you startto open things up, there are no
obvious rules.
Conversations can go in anumber of different directions
and most people find that quitescary.
So doing that in small ways andbuilding your confidence up
with it is really important.
(34:34):
You can hold that spacewherever the conversation might
go.
Jay Johnson (34:42):
That's brilliant.
You know it's interesting withpsychological safety and I'm
digging on this for just amoment.
It really feels likepsychological safety is very
much like trust, right, like ittakes a little while for you to
build it up and how quickly youcan lose it.
You know, when you're in one ofthose spaces and I've seen this
occur in a number of differentspaces where either you've got a
tense conversation in thefacilitation and somebody you
(35:05):
know, the manager shuts down oneof the employees in the middle
of that and all of a sudden youcan just sense the psychological
safety has been sucked out ofthat room.
Since the psychological safetyhas been sucked out of that room
, what would be?
How do we recover from that?
As a trainer, as a facilitator,as a coach?
(35:27):
What would be some ways thatwhen we see those violations of
authenticity or those violationsof somebody bringing themselves
in, feeling safe, putting itout there, and then all of a
sudden getting smacked down, notnecessarily by the trainer or
the facilitator but by somebodyelse in the space, how might we
be able to handle that in aprofessional, graceful,
courteous manner?
That maybe helps to start theprocess of rebuilding that
(35:49):
psychological safety?
Richard Reid (35:50):
Yeah, interesting question.
I think the tendency in thosesort of situations is people
recognize something's gone wrongand they tend to speed up and
they tend to do more and and, asa consequence, dig that hole
deeper in a lot of cases.
So I think it's again, it'sthis idea of slowing down,
pausing, so let's take stock ofwhere we are before we decide
(36:13):
where we're going to go next.
So that might be, you know,using skills like immediacy I
sense that you're feelingfrustrated at this point, or how
are you feeling at this pointlet's take a moment just to
reflect, and doing that meansthat we don't plow through
without recognizing somebody'semotions, and sometimes what we
(36:34):
might get back might beuncomfortable to hear, but it's
an opportunity to to reconnectand and to indicate to somebody
actually I we might have got offto a bad start, but I but I
care about what you're thinkingand I want to make sure that
this gives you what you need.
Yeah, and I think you know wecan all be clumsy in in our
interactions, but I think owningthat and and and showing that,
(36:58):
despite what we might have saidor done, that actually we
genuinely care is is really,really important.
So have the humility to be ableto acknowledge that.
If that, if that's the case,and I think that go.
That goes a long way, andactually it's.
It tends to be a rarity.
Most people plow on regardless,and that's most people's
experience the world.
So, pulling from that,acknowledging when there's a
(37:20):
difficulty, collaborating,showing curiosity, those are all
the skills that I think we needfor all kinds of interactions,
and they're not there enough ofthe time.
Jay Johnson (37:31):
You know it's so interesting.
You say that because you'reright A lot of us plow through
or we push past it because wewant to just get it in the rear
view mirror and we don't want todeal with it.
But that is going back to, Ithink, exactly what you said the
(37:58):
idea of having to manageemotions from others as well as
our own reactions to that isjust almost too much to bear.
But to hear you and I thinkthat this is such an excellent
tip that you've shared stay inthe space, take the leap of
faith.
I'm telling you, I really,really love that framing, that
silence is that leap of faith.
Take that leap of faith, engage, and what's going to come out
(38:18):
of that is probably going to befar more impactful, engaging and
meaningful to the audience thanpotentially our own fear of
what if I can't control thissituation or anything else.
Richard Reid (38:34):
Absolutely, you know.
I think you know in terms ofcoaching and particularly in
therapy.
So so my initial training intherapy was trauma therapy and
some of the stories that peopleused to bring you know.
Particularly in the early days,my reaction would be how, how
on earth do I deal with this?
This is just so outside ofanything I've ever heard before
and self-regulating.
(38:55):
Regulating my reaction to thatand holding that space and just
showing curiosity in the absenceof knowing what to do with it,
was actually more powerful,because you take the
conversation deeper and when youdo offer expertise, you're
doing it in a way which isentirely tailored to that
person's experience, and that'sso important.
You think about organizations,all the provisions that they
(39:19):
have in terms of mental healthsupport, all these kinds of
things.
It's the psychological safetywhich is the glue between all
those things.
Jay Johnson (39:25):
Brilliant.
Richard.
I was excited for thisconversation and it did not
disappoint.
You have given so much insightand some incredible tips and
tactics to the audience here atthe Talent Forge.
Richard Reid (39:40):
If our audience wanted to reach out to you and
connect.
How might they be able to get ahold of you?
Well, they're welcome to visitmy website, which is
richard-reidcom, or you canemail me it's richard at
pinnaclewellbeingservicescom.
Jay Johnson (39:51):
Well, thank you so much for joining us here today,
richard.
This has really been aninsightful conversation.
My pleasure, really enjoyed it.
And thank you, audience, fortuning into this episode of the
Talent Forge, where we areshaping the future of training
and development.
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