January 30, 2025 • 51 mins
Rebecca Vickers, our esteemed guest and VP of Operations and Marketing, joins us to explore the transformative power of storytelling in talent development. Her journey is a testament to the importance of fostering a people-centered approach in the ever-evolving business environment.
In this episode, we dive into the nuances of maximizing training impact through strategic partnerships and effective communication. Rebecca sheds light on the art of guiding clients toward optimal decisions while maintaining empathy and transparency.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, my special guest isRebecca Vickers.
Welcome to the show, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, rebecca, you've got an interesting background
and you know one of the thingsthat when I saw it, when we
connected, I was like wow,you've got a VP of operations
and marketing at your name and Ithink this is going to be an
incredible conversation.
But why don't you tell ouraudience a little bit about
yourself and how you got intothis talent development space?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thank you for that.
You're so kind and I'm soexcited to be able to share
today.
You've got a wonderful audienceand I want to make sure that
they get as much value aspossible.
That they get as much value aspossible and that's something
that's always been important forme is how can I give value and
contribute to whatever business,whatever company I'm working
for, and that has led me througha variety of different roles in
(00:54):
my past and in present, andright now, I currently run and
lead a digital marketing agencyamongst fabulous leaders and
wonderful team members who areleaders in their own right, and
I've had the benefit and theprivilege of being able to
support them in their growthfrom startup phase to where
we're at currently which isstill a growth phase for us and
(01:17):
navigating those waters ofscalability right.
So it's operations, it'smarketing, it's really coming
down to how we train our teamand how we educate our clients
too, so you get a mixture ofboth that client customer
service and that internal teamdevelopment as well, and while I
oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Let me pause you.
I want you to keep going, butlet me pause you there.
I love what you just said aboutbeing able to not only train
your team, but to train thecustomer as well.
I'm going to dig into that injust a little bit.
So please continue with this.
But I think that's so importantfor not only the teams that you
(01:57):
know our audience.
Many of them are going to be inan organization.
They're going to be trainingthe employees, they're going to
be training the leaders, andthat's an essential part.
Please keep going, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I just wanted to draw that out real quick oh yeah,
absolutely, and I love talkingabout that too, because I
believe client education isequally important.
It's all is important, right,um, and that it comes back to
that philosophy of Kaizen that alot of leaders that I talk to
also hold, and I myself haveeven expanded my thoughts and
(02:28):
ideas on.
But how are we continuouslyimproving?
And so, for myself, leadershipis about elevating others and
how can I be a better leader inthe space?
And so it takes that training,it takes that development and
over time, over the years, I'vecome to these positions because
I've looked at how can I bettermyself, how can I learn more,
(02:50):
grow more.
I know I don't know everything.
It takes all minds and allpeople on the team, and we have
to be able to tap into not justour potential, but how do we
help highlight and grow otherpeople's potential?
But how do we help highlightand grow other people's
potential?
So, right now, what I'm doingeven though I do wear many hats
(03:12):
it's very much a multifacetedtype of approach to building
accountability within the team,helping to transform the team.
Where can we be iterative inwhat we're doing and develop
what we're currently doing tostrengthen our work, and where
can we be innovative and findnew ways of approaching problems
and challenges and growing andlearning together.
So ultimately, that's kind ofin sum what I'm doing from a
(03:34):
maybe more philosophical, biggeroverview approach.
But then also rolling upsleeves and being alongside of
team members is really importantto me as a leader, because we
can grow together, we can learnthings together, and leadership
is not simply I'm going to standabove you on a pedestal and
(03:55):
point and tell you where to go,but, hey, I'm going to be behind
you, supporting you and helping, guide you as you need, but I'm
also going to leverage yourskillset, your strengths and
learn from you at the same timetoo.
So that's a large part of whatI love doing in my role and what
I really appreciate as thedevelopment side of that.
(04:16):
My journey has been a very richbackground of studying and
starting out in classics andtheater and really loving story
and storytelling, and that'sprobably where some of that
humanistic, people-centeredapproach comes from too, because
at the heart of greatleadership and training is
(04:37):
recognizing that you're trainingpeople and we're not training
robots, and we might call themor refer to them as employees or
team members or colleagues,what you will.
They're also people and so wehave to remember that and from
my experience there and workingin arts, marketing and other
industries like real estate andgetting to know how other
(04:57):
businesses operate, all the waythrough I've been studying,
learning and growing.
I've been studying, learning andgrowing and I've had wonderful
opportunities with wonderfulleaders and mentors who have
guided me in their expertise andgiven passed on a lot of
knowledge and great examples ofwhat it means to train, what it
means to be a great marketer,how to build systems that can
support the work that you'redoing, support your team and
(05:21):
build a culture around growthyour team and build a culture
around growth.
Because, jay, I really believeand I hope maybe this resonates
with your audience but if westart with our leaders, we start
as ourselves and starts with us.
If we build that culture ofgrowth and of curiosity and
collaboration and leaning intothe discomfort of change, which
(05:46):
is constant, as we're told rightAlways, if we lean into that
and recognize that we're goingto change, life around us is
going to change, but we canchange for the better when we're
proactive with how we approachchange happening around us in
the world externally, with howwe want to change ourselves and
(06:08):
improve, and so I take that as aconstant through line, through
my background and experience.
And now to present, helpingother team members.
We've got some really fabulousmanagers and leaders on our team
who have been going throughthat transition from doer to
leader influencer.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And we're going to dig into that for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That transition, that mindset shift that's required,
is something that is absolutelyparamount for any organization.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, oh, I wholeheartedly agree.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Now, one of the things that you said is this
theater background which, by theway, you are looking at the
Conrad Birdie of his high schoolmusical way way back in the day
.
I share a theater backgroundwith you on that, a little bit
more than that.
But theater, you know, when youbring theater into some of this
and there's a lot to unpack inwhat you said there but when you
bring theater or storytellinginto some of this training or
(07:15):
into some of this sort oftransformational approach that
you're having with your leaders,your team and your leaders,
your team and your organization,what impact do you see that
having on the people'sengagement or having on how they
essentially, how they show upto some of these opportunities
that you're providing?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's a great question.
I love it because it buildsconnection.
When you share a story, you'reable to better connect with a
person because you are creatingsomething emotional in them, and
I think, when it comes totraining into leadership, a good
story can and might start withyou expressing or describing a
(07:59):
time where you failed, you wereembarrassed, you made a mistake.
You can choose how vulnerableyou want to be in that moment,
but when you show how human youare and how you learn from an
experience and grown via thepower, the mode of storytelling,
then people are going toconnect with that story.
(08:20):
They're going to understandbetter the context, why what
you're sharing is important, andthey're going to remember it a
whole lot better than if Isimply give you a list of
instructions or an Ikea stylebooklet.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Go do this, go do that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It's going to have more meaning, value and then
expressing the impact as well.
So connection, it's memorable.
It's also entertaining.
One of our values at FMO Mediais to entertain, to educate,
empower, entertain and execute.
In all of those wonderful wordsis an active, emotional and
(09:01):
very powerful thought andapproach to how we can really
help our team members live fullyand work fully together in a
way that gives people agency.
They need to do their job well.
And the same thing, I'll add,because I know this is important
too, we want to chat about itclients, how are you educating,
(09:23):
how are you empowering yourclients?
We don't want work to be boring,right?
I hope we don't want work to beboring, I shouldn't assume, but
we want to have some kind ofengaging, positive experience.
I won't necessarily say fun,because it might not always be
fun.
Experience is very much a wordthat I draw on from my arts
(09:43):
background, my arts marketingbackground, that we're crafting
an experience, and this goes foryour clients and the experience
you're giving with your clientsand sharing with them.
This goes with your team andhow you're experiencing the
relationship, the dynamic, thework dynamic, and how they're
experiencing you, too, workdynamic, and how they're
(10:07):
experiencing you too.
And so how are we building thatculture back to culture again
where we can have reallymeaningful, engaging, positive
experiences, with the caveatthat we know life is not always
roses and sunny days.
We were going to navigate thosechallenges, but if we come with
that mindset of agility andlooking for solutions versus
(10:28):
problems which a lot of learningcan be how am I moving towards
a solution?
Then I think you're going tofind a healthier culture and
company atmosphere overall.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Well, and to piggyback on the storytelling
aspect, you know, one of thethings that we know and
understand is like the cycle ofthe hero's journey and the
transition from, you know, the17 point transition, from being
inspired or being engaged andthen finding ourselves not
having the confidence and thentaking the action and then never
(11:01):
going back, and then all of asudden we find ourselves emerged
out of this new world and I'mreally kind of short scripting
it based on time here butemerging from this new world
completely changed.
And I do think about thathero's journey a lot when we
think about training, becausethere's plenty of times when
content or ideas or even a shiftin culture kind of gets those,
(11:25):
you know, gets the audience orgets the leaders thinking to
themselves like I can't do this,I don't have the skills, I
don't have the knowledge, andit's usually a guide or a mentor
that's able to help them alongthat journey.
That ends up getting them tothe space of okay, there's no
going back from here Because, asyou mentioned, change is hard.
It's ever present, but it'shard.
Our brain is not wired for it.
(11:46):
So you know, we know fromneuroscience and psychology, our
brain is not wired for change,it wants status quo, it wants to
stay in a safe, non-risky typeventure, and learning and
training and change can beincredibly scary.
So we're going to get to the.
We're going to get to theclients and educating the
clients, because I think thatthat can be really important
(12:08):
when we start to think of maybewe're in an organization and our
leaders are actually ourclients.
They're the ones that areasking us for particular things
in the training, talentdevelopment space and we do need
to educate them as much as weneed to educate the participants
.
But I want to stick here forjust one moment, because I think
this storytelling is a reallypowerful concept in terms of
(12:30):
training and talent development.
As you're navigating and maybesharing the story of your
vulnerability, right, and you'retalking about how maybe you
struggled or how you came tothis point and, as you mentioned
, you have that choice of howvulnerable do you want to be, at
what place?
Cause I think this is wheresometimes it can be really
difficult for a trainer, a coachor an HR person.
(12:52):
Where do you draw the line onvulnerability Right, and and and
and?
Hear me out on this real quick.
When we think about it, it'slike, okay, well, maybe I'm
sharing something that, for me,is incredibly vulnerable and I
tell you that I had a yogurtbowl for breakfast and I'm like,
oh my gosh, I just let you intomy world and that that was
vulnerable.
(13:12):
And most people look at thatand be like that's nothing.
And then you have other peoplethat tell maybe a deep, uh
traumatic, story from theirchildhood and really go into
detail about some of thechallenges or barriers maybe
that they faced.
And you know, vulnerabilityseems to have this sort of
subjective quality of what'svulnerable to me may not be to
(13:34):
you.
How, as a storyteller, can wereally match, maybe, the energy
of the audience or how can wereally maximize the value of
demonstrating that vulnerabilitybut not taking it to the cliff
and going over by 15 feet?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so it doesn't get into TMI and we have our
team questioning our abilitiesas a leader.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, you're right, there is a subjective element to
it.
I think it also goes back towhat you were saying earlier,
that transformative quality ofstorytelling and how we're
showing the journey from point Ato point B.
And it's not a straight line,it's not a straight exponential
line.
There are going to be sometwists and turns to it.
(14:20):
There's going to be thatinciting incident, there's going
to be that climactic moment andthe denouement that leads us to
a resolution.
And so if you think aboutwhat's the purpose of sharing
this story, what's the impact,what's the transformation that I
hope my team receives from thisstory, and you understand the
(14:41):
goal and why you're sharing it,then you're thinking about the
receiver, the recipient of yourstory, and it's not about you,
and I think that's important.
We have to remember our audience.
Same thing goes for marketing,right, we have to remember that
our content is not meant for us,it's meant for our audience.
And, at the same time, we needto be mindful of our brand image
(15:03):
.
If you're thinking aboutmarketing, we need to be mindful
of our brand image.
If you're thinking aboutmarketing, we need to be mindful
of the perception that our teamis also going to get from us
too.
So it is a tricky road totravel, and there is a fine line
between I'm sharing too muchand I'm sharing just enough so
that you understand thechallenge that I overcame and
how I did it and how Iapproached it in a way that
(15:26):
shows you that I'm human.
But it's not crossing that lineof highlighting perhaps all of
the flaws and the trials and allthe thoughts that people might
not need to be privy to.
They really need to understandthat transformative nature, and
I think a good rule of thumbwould be if you don't feel like
(15:49):
you are comfortable sharingsomething publicly, you probably
shouldn't share it.
It's kind of my same rule ofthumb for putting something
online.
If you have any kind of doubtabout whether it's appropriate
to share this online or not, youprobably should not post it
online.
And I think the same thing goesfor what kind of story you're
sharing with your team.
The other thing, too, I wouldkeep in mind, no matter what
(16:12):
department you're in, but wouldyour HR department?
Would your boss?
would your colleagues feelembarrassed for you in a way
that's cringeworthy.
So that's where, you know, thesubjectivity comes into play.
It takes a little bit ofpractice.
I would maybe run your story bya trusted colleague or a friend
(16:36):
, or maybe spouse partner.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, and that would Second opinion definitely.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, and that's an opinion, definitely yeah.
You get some feedback.
So all of that to say there'ssome nuance to it.
General rule of thumb if that'snot something that you feel
confident in sharing, that isgoing to potentially cause some
maybe uncomfortable tensionwithin your team, then you
probably shouldn't share it.
So think of the team, think ofthe impact you want that story
(17:07):
to share.
Is it relevant to the trainingtoo?
I've been in situations wherepeople are sharing stories and
the story doesn't match Like.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
what the hell does this have to do with anything?
That we're talking about.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You really just wanted to tell me about your dog
, and that's great.
I love dogs, as you can see,but the story is probably not
relevant to learning aboutwhatever.
X, y or Z is that day, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, and I like what you said, it's a reoccurring
theme that we talk about here iskeeping the audience in mind.
As a trainer, as a coach, as aHR person, we often think about,
okay, how do I sound, how do Ilook, what does my slides look
like?
And it's really less about thatthan it's.
How is the audience perceivingme?
What is the audience feelingwhen I'm saying this?
(17:53):
What is the audience reading,or where's their attention drawn
when I'm creating whatever youknow visual representations of
my words?
So it's keeping that audiencein mind is certainly a
reoccurring theme and I thinkit's a great tip that you shared
.
There is kind of you know, thesecond opinion, but also just
making sure that we maintainfocus.
Now, this is where I'm going totransition us and I really want
(18:17):
to dig into this because Ithink it's so important.
Right, you had mentioned notonly training your team, but
also training your clients.
Now, whether you're in thetalent development space as an
external consultant, an externaltrainer, an external coach, or
if you're embedded inside of anorganizational talent
(18:37):
development wing, you haveclients and the clients for you
can look like yourorganizational leadership and
you know one of the things thatwe talk about here, and I'll
lean back into Jess Almley'sconversation that we had here on
the Talent Forge of moving fromorder taker to becoming a
(18:57):
strategic partner so important.
But part of that becoming astrategic partner is also
educating that leadership.
So it's not just about trainingthe people in the room, it's
also about training the peoplethat are requesting your
services or requesting yourexpertise.
Let's get an understanding.
(19:21):
When you mentioned this,obviously it resonated.
It hit with me.
Talk to me about this.
What does it mean to train yourclient as much as it means to
train your leadership?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So, jay, I'm glad you mentioned your other episode.
I didn't actually get to hearit, but I love that somebody
else is talking about this andencouraging this too.
About this and encouraging thisto the idea of not being an
order taker, because it issomething that we constantly
talk about at FMO that I hold asreally important to keep in
(19:52):
mind.
When you're working with aclient, you are their partner
and you want to be strategic,and we don't want to simply take
a request and fulfill itwithout helping guide the client
towards the best possibledecision for them.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So when I ask you for a giant yellow flyer with 16
different colors and 900 wordsin 2.5, you're not just going to
hand that over to me.
Come on, I'm the client though.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I know Well, our job as project managers and as those
team members is to satisfyrequirements and needs right,
and we want the clients to behappy.
And that's where the conflictcomes in.
Jay, I would love to get youthat poster.
How about we look at this otheroption here, too, because I
wonder if maybe this will helpyour brand image develop the
(20:46):
consistency, the cohesion andthe familiarity that we're
looking for.
How about this other option?
Here's why maybe this one herewhile it's a fun idea, it might
not be the most effective foryou.
I know we're being concise herefor the sake of time for you,
that's, you know.
I know we're being concise herefor sake of time, but that's
(21:07):
how I would try to steer thatconversation towards what's the
best option for the client thatis still going to satisfy
requirements and needs, that isstill going to satisfy them and
make them feel really good aboutworking together.
That isn't simply a okay, gotit.
Good, you'll have that on yourdesk by Monday.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
There's three things that you did there, rebecca,
that I think are brilliant, andI want to draw attention to them
for our audience.
The first thing is youvalidated me.
You didn't tell me no.
You said, wow, cool, that's a,that's a neat idea.
And you did it.
And I didn't feel like you werebeing condescending.
It was authentic, like oh, wow,yeah, I'd love to do that for
(21:49):
you.
Then, second, you offered me analternative to consider.
You didn't say, but let's lookat this.
You didn't give a.
But you didn't give a.
We're not doing that.
You literally said I'd like tobring this into the space for
you to evaluate alongside ofthis option.
And then the third thing thatyou did was you reminded me that
(22:11):
you, that you're on my team andyou know I want to make sure
that your brand and that we havethis and that we're on the same
team and that we're you knowthat this is going to bring you
value.
You did that so succinctly, inless than like two sentences.
I didn't want to lose that,because that is gold and that's
exactly what we've been pushingfor, like don't just be the
(22:35):
order taker, don't just accept,let's validate, let's offer an
alternative and let's have aconversation about it, so I
didn't want to cut you off.
But, wow, just absolutelybrilliant there, rebecca, I
loved that.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you flatter me.
I'm glad you did, though, jay,because I love to give examples
and scenarios, and you summarizethat beautifully, those three
points, and understand where I'mcoming from too.
I love how you said it.
I didn't say no, and that'ssomething that I love to train
the team on is how do we say yesto a client even though we're
trying to steer them in a betterdirection, and not have to say
(23:12):
no, because no can be a very, itcan be a very stalling, or it
is a negative word, but it cancome across in a way that feels
very much like a roadblock to aclient, and they're going to put
up their guard.
They're going to feelpotentially a little defensive
if we tell them no outright, andthis is where the mindset shift
(23:35):
between I'm a problem stacker,as I call it.
Somebody just stacks problemsno, can't do that, not sure, I'm
stuck.
And a problem solver orsolution years, as I also like
to call it.
Somebody just stacks problemsno, can't do that, not sure, I'm
stuck.
And a problem solver, orsolutioneers, as I also like to
call it.
How are you a solution?
Here?
We're always looking for thebest possible approach for the
best possible outcome, and whenyou truly care about the outcome
(23:57):
for your clients and you wantto do right by them and you want
them to succeed.
Same thing with our teammembers, right?
We realize that they're peopleand we all have that desire for
success and achievement andgrowth.
How can we set them up in thebest way possible?
And it wouldn't be right, itwould not be serving them if we
(24:20):
simply say yes to every singlerequest, because their request,
while well-intentioned and maybea fun idea your poster could be
a great idea, jay, and maybe wefind some way to compromise.
But maybe we find some way tocompromise and make that poster
fun, but do it in a way that'sgoing to be effective and
(24:42):
attract the right kind ofattention, right, and so in that
compromise we're collaboratingand we're working together.
But if I were to simply say,yeah, sure, Jay, I can get that
to you, I'm not doing you aservice.
I'm actually taking valuabletime that you are paying for and
I'm distributing it towardssomething that is probably not
(25:05):
going to be in your bestinterest.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Not going to yield the outcome that we want.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Exactly, and you don't know necessarily.
You're not necessarily awarethat that's the case.
So I, who should know better Isay should, but that's a
nebulous word.
I say should, but that's anebulous word I, who might know
better, will be able to serveyou better if I'm able to
(25:30):
educate you as to why that mightnot produce the best outcome.
And here are some otheralternatives that we can do for
you.
So we don't have to say no andhit that roadblock, but we can
say let's look at this asstrategic partners to your
phrase and point, so that we canhead in the right direction
together.
(25:51):
And so that's how I like toapproach it, and I love that
we're in sync and so many otherpeople are aligned with that too
, because at the end of the day,hopefully, we all want that
growth for our clients, and ittakes time to build up that
rapport.
I truly feel like if you startwith that mindset of educating
not condescending, which youpicked up on, but educating and
(26:15):
assuming that your client is thesmartest person in the room, if
you assume that the otherperson is the smartest person in
the room and they know way morethan you they certainly know
more about their business thanyou, then you can approach that
suggestion with a humility, witha deference to the knowledge
that they have, but with anunderstanding that, hey, I want
(26:36):
to help you, and so let me sharesome info that might help you,
as the client, make a decisionwith me, your partner.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
See, and I really like that because and I want to
go one level deeper, at leastone level deeper on this and
part of it is is, you know, froma trainer's perspective, or
maybe if you're just startingout as your freelance training
and you get a call from a clientthat says we need blank
training, and immediately you'relike I don't.
Client that says we need blanktraining, and immediately you're
like I don't think that's goingto fix the problem Sometimes,
(27:09):
is that entry-level freelance orentry-level coach?
It is very, very scary and itcan be exceptionally difficult
to feel like what is pushingback right, like okay, let's,
let's hold there, let's thinkabout that.
That sounds like a great idea,but maybe this is something else
that could also work too, right?
So it's a little scary fromthat outside consultant that
(27:32):
maybe has clients, but from aleadership or from an internal
practitioner, whether they're inHR, whether they're on the
talent development team, in manycases that exchange is
occurring with your singlesource of income.
It is your leader, your boss,this is your career, this is
(27:54):
your long-term.
It's not necessarily just afreelance.
But now I'm saying, okay, thisleader.
And from our behavioral elementsassessment we know that a lot
of executive leadership tend tohave very strong opinions, very
strong drives and generallymakes decisions much quicker
(28:16):
than, say, somebody in themarketing or the talent
development space, which is muchmore about learning and bonding
, collaborating, et cetera.
So you get this directive andnow, at this point in time,
maybe there wasn't that space tohave a conversation right then,
and there Maybe there's.
You know, maybe when you didget that directive, the leader
(28:37):
was upset about something,saying hey, fix this, get this
done, and maybe that momentwasn't the right moment.
How can we go back to that?
How can we create space whenmaybe the space wasn't created
for us or there wasn't theopportunity, we weren't invited
to give our opinion, but it wasmore of that sort of directive
(28:58):
and now recognizing it can bereally scary.
What are your thoughts on that,rebecca?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
This is a great scenario and I'm going to share
some ways that you couldapproach it.
It also brings to mind which wemight want to touch on too, how
you as the trainer, the coach,the guide, can also learn in the
process, because so manythoughts come to mind when you
(29:27):
talk about how the person makingthe request whether it is an
external or internal client theymight not know the actual
problem that they have and theymight not understand the root
problem, but be looking at thesymptom of something.
And so they are quick and Iabsolutely agree.
(29:51):
A lot of us in those roles werevery quick to make a decision
and think we got all the answers.
We have to remember that wedon't know what we don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
And it's oftentimes the people who are, we'll call
it, boots on the ground, thefolks who are in it, executing,
doing the work.
They might have additionalinformation.
At the very least, they'regoing to have a different
perspective on what thechallenges are.
And you, as that coach, guide,trainer, whatever your
(30:25):
responsibility is in thedevelopment space, this can be a
great moment for us to askquestions and get to the heart
of what the person mightactually be looking for.
This is something that I applyto individuals, you can apply to
groups, you can apply to yourexternal clients, you can apply
to your executive team, yourcolleagues, of course, doing so
(30:48):
in a way that's respectful andappropriate, right, but asking
the how questions and the whatquestions before you necessarily
ask the why questions so thatwe're not putting people
immediately on the defensive.
Well, why do you need that kindof training?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Tell me a little bit more.
What's going on with the teamthat brings this training to top
priority for you?
How can I best support yourteam in this training, or what
(31:25):
are you observing or noticingthat I can find a way to
navigate through my training andaddress for the team that needs
that support, if you start?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
great framed questions.
I really like those.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Well, I love it's hard, right, it's hard for us to
think of them in the moment,but I love having questions that
I know can help get to the rootcause, prepped and ready, when
I run into those roadblocks of,hey, we need this or do this or
I want you to.
Hey, we need this or do this orI want you to.
(31:55):
And I think you know going backto culture again, I'm probably
going to sound like a brokenrecord, but if you develop a
culture of curiosity, your wholeteam is going to be curious
with you and they're going tolook for that deeper insight and
info gathering so thateverybody can make the best
decision.
Because, jay, I feel likepeople make bad decisions for
(32:18):
usually two reasons One is theydon't have the info that they
need to make a good decision andtwo, they're not motivated to
make a good decision.
And we could talk about how youmotivate people.
That's probably a whole othertopic in and of itself, but the
info part is so crucial becauseif we give people the benefit of
the doubt we all want to makegood decisions, right Then how
(32:41):
do we make sure we're givingthem the best info to make the
best decision, whether I'm aleader requesting a training and
even though I'm a leaderdeveloping, I have other leaders
that I work with who I requesttrainings from, and I have to
make sure that I'm asking theright questions and they are
open and feel comfortable askingme questions to get to the
(33:04):
heart of what is reallyimportant, what's really going
to be impactful and a good useof our time.
Because the other thing too,jay, especially in the agency
world, but any business, we'reso busy, right?
We're recording this now duringThanksgiving holiday week.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
It's a short for everybody.
Happy Thanksgiving, everyoneHappy.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Thanksgiving yeah, I cleared the calendar of any
meeting that was not going toproduce an efficient and
effective result for us withinthis week, because I need to be
so mindful of everybody's time.
And so, if we also think oftraining as the time that it
takes to invest in someone, andnot treating that lightly, but
(33:45):
really thinking, how are wemaximizing and optimizing this
training so that people can takewhat we're teaching them and
then go off and apply it?
Because when you don't apply oryou can't apply and this is,
for the audience, rhetoricalbecause you can't answer, but I
would love to maybe see commentsfrom this what have you
(34:08):
experienced, or when have youexperienced a time where you've
been asked to learn something,or you went off to learn
something and you immediatelyforgot it because you didn't use
it and apply it, and it wasn'trelevant.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And Rebecca, I can tell you that the data on this
and the science on this, theforgetting curve tells us that
if we don't use it within, if wedon't use it or access it
within two days, 70% of thelearning is gone.
Within two weeks, it's 90% ofthe learning is gone.
And, from the other perspective, generally less than 23% of
(34:43):
people that are participating ina training will actually take a
behavioral action related tothat training, which is.
Those are abysmal stats, butthose are the ones that are
pretty, pretty widespreadthroughout the industry.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Those are amazing and also, I believe it, too Amazing
in the sense that it reallydoes make you consider how am I
structuring this training?
Is it accessible for everybody?
In this training, too, I loveto include any kind of
workshopping or activity,definitely have a takeaway or
action items following atraining and I know we're diving
(35:22):
into a little bit more of thatside of things and further away
from your original question, butI do encourage everybody.
How are we taking our time andusing it wisely and investing it
towards the actual problem witha more practical, relevant
solution?
Because, to your point, noteverybody is going to absorb it
(35:45):
and I would be curious what'sthe difference between a
training that is extremelyrelevant and timely and
impactful versus a training thatisn't relevant and people don't
connect with and doesn'taddress the root challenge or
problem or the type of growth?
Because we can look at it fromthe positive side too where do
(36:07):
we need to enhance and supportthe team?
If it doesn't address thosethings, then are those stats
even lower and more shocking tous?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
It wouldn't surprise me at all.
I think you hit the nail on thehead when you said the
difference between the symptomsand the root cause, right, like
a lot of times, if we're sittingin the leadership seat, we're
suffering the symptoms but notnecessarily throw this training
at it.
It's almost like you go to thedoctor's office and they don't
(36:36):
know your exact diagnosis.
So they're like here, takeamoxicillin for several days,
give me a call and let me knowif that worked or not, and it's
just like okay.
Five days later it's just likethat didn't work.
Okay, come back in, we're goingto give you a steroid.
Now.
That didn't work, okay, let'stry something else.
And it's just trial and errorwhich, quite frankly, is
expensive and true in medical,true in marketing, I'm sure,
(36:58):
true in training and everywhereelse.
It's expensive, it takes a lotof time and there's a lot of
sunk costs that occur along thatway.
So that question of managingthe symptom or getting to that
root cause, there's twoadditional questions.
I love the questions that yousaid.
Two additional ones I like touse myself.
(37:19):
One is what behaviors are youseeing that tell you that this
is a problem?
And I really try to get them tofocus on the observable
behaviors, because thatoftentimes gives me some insight
.
And then the second one is Itotally steal, uh, brene Brown,
and I know it comes from scrumlanguage, but what does done
look like?
(37:39):
What are the outcomes that youwant from this, and do we think
that this type of a training isgoing to get us to those
outcomes?
So I wanted to kind of add ontothat I I really really
appreciate that symptom versusroot cause, and sometimes we
think the symptom is the rootcause, even though it's probably
(38:00):
not so, rebecca, I want to askone more question in this space
because I think this is probably, if I was to rate the biggest
challenges in talent developmenttoday, it is.
It's a disconnect between thetrainers, the coaches, the HR
practitioners and leadership,and leadership I'm using is sort
(38:23):
of synonymous with client,whoever it is, that's the
decision maker that's making thecalls on budget, that's making
the calls on hiring and firing,that's making the calls on
whether your contract's gettingextended or whether your
division's going to becompletely cut.
So I'm using those sort ofinterchangeably in this space
because I think it affects bothfreelancers as well as in
(38:46):
embedded trainers and talentdevelopment specialists.
So that is, I think, thebiggest challenge what do we do
when we get that leader and Ithink that this is a question
that's often difficult, and I'msure that you've seen this
before in the marketing spacewhen you get that leader, you
give that encouragement, youpush back gently, you guide and
(39:10):
at the end of the day, they justare not having it.
And and this was something thatwas brought up in a couple of
other conversations like thisLike we know that there's those
clients out there that are likeno, this is how I want it.
I want you to do it this way.
You know it's not going to beeffective.
You know that Jay's flyer sucks, uh, you know that this is not
(39:33):
going to produce the outcomes.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
How, how, what are some thoughts on handling that
type of a situation, when thatperson is so locked into their
own biases, beliefs, whatever itis, that they're just not
willing to give space fordialogue, collaboration,
strategic partnership, thinking?
What do you think on that?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
That's another great question and scenario.
I have run into that multipletimes in different ways and well
, there are two things that I'lltouch on.
I'll address the scenario first, and it goes back to that
education right, and if they'renot open to collaborating and
seeing different points of viewand different options, then
(40:21):
approaching it with theunderstanding that I hear you, I
understand what you're askingfor.
You might need to ask someadditional questions for extra
clarity in case the request isvague, but once you have that
understanding of what they'reasking for, I would then again
share what the outcome is thatyou expect to see from that and
(40:45):
be okay with them making thatdecision and sharing something
to the effect of hey, jay, Iunderstand what you're asking
for, I understand this isimportant to you and that you
are very passionate about thisyellow poster project.
So I want to make sure that wefulfill your needs and
(41:05):
requirements as best as possibleand in a way that makes you
satisfied and happy.
I do have those other ideasthat I'm more than happy to
re-evaluate with you if you sochoose.
I do want to clarify that if wego down this path, these are
the expected outcomes.
I could be very wrong at thesame time, because sometimes you
(41:29):
never know what could happen orwhat might change.
From what I've seen before withother clients, from other
experiences, this is the patternof result that I typically see
with a project like this.
As long as you are an agreementand this is, you're okay with it
, this outcome being thepotential outcome then I'm more
(41:52):
than happy to do everything inmy power to make this a
successful poster for you.
And if we need to pivot andchange our approach, then I'm
going to communicate as much aspossible throughout the progress
and you can come to me with asmuch feedback as you need, and
we can change if we and if youso choose.
(42:12):
I just want to be really clearon my experience and the pattern
that I see potentiallyhappening as a result.
And so if you break it down forthem, you acknowledge the
importance of the request, youhave an acknowledgement of what
they're asking for and that youhear and understand them and
give them that expectation, youhave a little bit of a buffer
(42:37):
for yourself.
You have that paper I wouldhave that paper trail for
yourself, too of outlining whatthey might expect and what's in
your power and capacity if yougo down that route and there are
varying degrees to which youcan do that.
A poster might be somethingless.
You might take a simplerapproach to that, a training,
(43:00):
where you're training, you know,20 people or more, or you're
coaching or mentoring a teammember to get them to a certain
point.
You might have to havelengthier discussions, but it
would go back to that educationand helping to guide the person
towards what they might expectfrom the decision that they're
making.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Rebecca, that actually might be one of my
favorite answers to thatquestion and again I'm going to
give you kind of the threethings that I pulled out of
there.
The first thing that you didwas you started with an
excessive not excessive in a badway an excessively great amount
of empathy and you validatedagain you saw them again to keep
(43:40):
that sort of defense mechanismfrom rearing up.
The second thing is I think youdid a really nice job of
demonstrating.
This is what I'm understanding.
This is what you want.
This is important.
These are the potentialconsequences.
So you again went back to yourconcept of here's all of the
(44:04):
information.
This is the patterns that I'veseen from these types of things.
We know that this is theoutcomes and I'm not certain
that these are going to line up.
But if this is, you now haveall the information.
I've given it to you.
Now it's time for you to makethat final decision and I'm
going to do everything I can toexecute.
And if they still are notmoving at that point in time,
sure, we've got to execute,we've got to follow and do what
(44:24):
it is, but at this point you'veempathized.
You gave them all of theinformation and you gave them
that last opportunity to reallysay is this what I want?
Was I making that decision onimpulse?
Was I making that decisionhastily?
I really love the way that youcommunicated that.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Well, thank you.
It takes a lot of practice andexperience to get to that point
too.
So I know it might not comeeasily for everybody, but I do
encourage everyone to practicehaving those difficult
conversations, because theybecome easier when you have that
empathetic and I like to thinkof it as empathy and
expectations You're outliningexpectations and then you're
(45:04):
approaching it empatheticallywith them and then the active
part is where you can havecompassion for who they are and
what they do and what they needfrom you, and you can be
compassionate in how you followup on that with them.
The other thing that I wantedto highlight from what you had
said in setting up the scenarioto Jay is the understanding of
(45:25):
transparency, and I'm going toborrow from Simon Sinek, who
says that transparency is aboutgiving context.
It's not about kind of back towhat we were saying earlier
about storytelling.
We don't have to let our wholeslip show.
We give context so that peopleunderstand the decisions that we
are making or that we arehoping that we will make
(45:46):
together.
And so if you're transparentand then proactive I love
proactive communication I thinkthat can be the most strategic
because you're getting ahead ofa potential problem or question
or the education that might beneeded, and you have the other
person, the recipient, in mind.
(46:07):
So it's not about you, but it'sabout how do I make sure that
that other person feels safe,feels informed, feels
comfortable in our conversationand their needs are prioritized
because I am here to serve them.
Whether we're serving our team,whether we're serving clients,
I take that servant leadershipapproach of how can I remove a
(46:30):
roadblock for you and not be theroadblock or the bottleneck for
you.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
And I've heard you say serving a couple of times.
I was going to ask you aboutserving leadership because I
kind of figured that that wassort of your frame.
Just hearing like this is how Ican serve you, bastard.
This is the cert.
You know, I am here servingyour interests and so you use
the vernacular in there.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Thank you.
I truly believe there aredifferent types and models of
leadership that we can use andtake on as needed.
It's certainly the situationalleadership also comes to mind
here the default that I findbeneficial very much for me.
I can only speak to personalexperience, but the default for
(47:15):
me is servant leadership,because if I am serving the
other person, then it's aboutwhat is best for them and their
needs, and I can then adaptmyself my leadership style, the
mode of training orcommunication, to make sure that
whatever I'm imparting to themand sharing with them is given
(47:36):
in a way that gives value andlifts them up versus tears them
down or makes them feel inferioror or or.
How can I make sure that I'msupporting that person in the
actions that I take, in thecommunication, communication
that I share, in the way that Igive and receive information to
and from them?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Rebecca, I think this has been an incredible
conversation and I really lovebringing in this operations and
the marketing experience to thissort of the transformation of
being out of the order takerbusiness and into that strategic
partner, and I really love thetactics and tips that you were
able to share with the audiencetoday.
(48:19):
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how might
they be able to reach out to you?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Absolutely so.
I love connecting with people.
On LinkedIn you can find me,Rebecca Curison Vickers.
I'm more than happy to connectwith others and share, give
whatever value that I can foranyone who might be in the space
and want some additionalpractical tips.
I also have a newer podcast out.
It's called Bad Bosses GreatLeaders.
(48:44):
We're there to highlight andfeature great leaders in the
space and how they're equippingtheir team and growing new
leaders beside them, and so youcan check that out on
greatleaderspodcastcom, and Ilove to be able to spread the
word so that we can really trulydevelop people who are reaching
their fullest potential andcreating better, healthier work
(49:06):
environments.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Love it.
We'll make sure that those arein the show notes, so go and
give a listen.
Obviously, leadership is one ofthe most important things that
we can be developing inourselves and in our teams, so I
want to say thank you, rebecca,for being here with us today,
for sharing your wisdom andexperience.
This has been an incredibleconversation and I'm just I'm so
grateful that you took the time, even in this busy week of a
(49:30):
holiday, to be here with us onthe Talent Forge.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Thank you so much, jay.
It's a week of gratitude, soI'm incredibly grateful to be
able to share my experience andhope that it will be practical
and valuable for others.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
I will extend that gratitude to you, the audience.
Thank you for tuning into thisepisode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingthe future of training and
development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today, my special guest isRebecca Vickers.
Welcome to the show, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Yeah, rebecca, you've got an interesting background
and you know one of the thingsthat when I saw it, when we
connected, I was like wow,you've got a VP of operations
and marketing at your name and Ithink this is going to be an
incredible conversation.
But why don't you tell ouraudience a little bit about
yourself and how you got intothis talent development space?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Thank you for that.
You're so kind and I'm soexcited to be able to share
today.
You've got a wonderful audienceand I want to make sure that
they get as much value aspossible.
That they get as much value aspossible and that's something
that's always been important forme is how can I give value and
contribute to whatever business,whatever company I'm working
for, and that has led me througha variety of different roles in
(00:54):
my past and in present, andright now, I currently run and
lead a digital marketing agencyamongst fabulous leaders and
wonderful team members who areleaders in their own right, and
I've had the benefit and theprivilege of being able to
support them in their growthfrom startup phase to where
we're at currently which isstill a growth phase for us and
(01:17):
navigating those waters ofscalability right.
So it's operations, it'smarketing, it's really coming
down to how we train our teamand how we educate our clients
too, so you get a mixture ofboth that client customer
service and that internal teamdevelopment as well, and while I
oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Let me pause you.
I want you to keep going, butlet me pause you there.
I love what you just said aboutbeing able to not only train
your team, but to train thecustomer as well.
I'm going to dig into that injust a little bit.
So please continue with this.
But I think that's so importantfor not only the teams that you
(01:57):
know our audience.
Many of them are going to be inan organization.
They're going to be trainingthe employees, they're going to
be training the leaders, andthat's an essential part.
Please keep going, Rebecca.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I just wanted to draw that out real quick oh yeah,
absolutely, and I love talkingabout that too, because I
believe client education isequally important.
It's all is important, right,um, and that it comes back to
that philosophy of Kaizen that alot of leaders that I talk to
also hold, and I myself haveeven expanded my thoughts and
(02:28):
ideas on.
But how are we continuouslyimproving?
And so, for myself, leadershipis about elevating others and
how can I be a better leader inthe space?
And so it takes that training,it takes that development and
over time, over the years, I'vecome to these positions because
I've looked at how can I bettermyself, how can I learn more,
(02:50):
grow more.
I know I don't know everything.
It takes all minds and allpeople on the team, and we have
to be able to tap into not justour potential, but how do we
help highlight and grow otherpeople's potential?
But how do we help highlightand grow other people's
potential?
So, right now, what I'm doingeven though I do wear many hats
(03:12):
it's very much a multifacetedtype of approach to building
accountability within the team,helping to transform the team.
Where can we be iterative inwhat we're doing and develop
what we're currently doing tostrengthen our work, and where
can we be innovative and findnew ways of approaching problems
and challenges and growing andlearning together.
So ultimately, that's kind ofin sum what I'm doing from a
(03:34):
maybe more philosophical, biggeroverview approach.
But then also rolling upsleeves and being alongside of
team members is really importantto me as a leader, because we
can grow together, we can learnthings together, and leadership
is not simply I'm going to standabove you on a pedestal and
(03:55):
point and tell you where to go,but, hey, I'm going to be behind
you, supporting you and helping, guide you as you need, but I'm
also going to leverage yourskillset, your strengths and
learn from you at the same timetoo.
So that's a large part of whatI love doing in my role and what
I really appreciate as thedevelopment side of that.
(04:16):
My journey has been a very richbackground of studying and
starting out in classics andtheater and really loving story
and storytelling, and that'sprobably where some of that
humanistic, people-centeredapproach comes from too, because
at the heart of greatleadership and training is
(04:37):
recognizing that you're trainingpeople and we're not training
robots, and we might call themor refer to them as employees or
team members or colleagues,what you will.
They're also people and so wehave to remember that and from
my experience there and workingin arts, marketing and other
industries like real estate andgetting to know how other
(04:57):
businesses operate, all the waythrough I've been studying,
learning and growing.
I've been studying, learning andgrowing and I've had wonderful
opportunities with wonderfulleaders and mentors who have
guided me in their expertise andgiven passed on a lot of
knowledge and great examples ofwhat it means to train, what it
means to be a great marketer,how to build systems that can
support the work that you'redoing, support your team and
(05:21):
build a culture around growthyour team and build a culture
around growth.
Because, jay, I really believeand I hope maybe this resonates
with your audience but if westart with our leaders, we start
as ourselves and starts with us.
If we build that culture ofgrowth and of curiosity and
collaboration and leaning intothe discomfort of change, which
(05:46):
is constant, as we're told rightAlways, if we lean into that
and recognize that we're goingto change, life around us is
going to change, but we canchange for the better when we're
proactive with how we approachchange happening around us in
the world externally, with howwe want to change ourselves and
(06:08):
improve, and so I take that as aconstant through line, through
my background and experience.
And now to present, helpingother team members.
We've got some really fabulousmanagers and leaders on our team
who have been going throughthat transition from doer to
leader influencer.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
And we're going to dig into that for sure.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
That transition, that mindset shift that's required,
is something that is absolutelyparamount for any organization.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, oh, I wholeheartedly agree.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Now, one of the things that you said is this
theater background which, by theway, you are looking at the
Conrad Birdie of his high schoolmusical way way back in the day
.
I share a theater backgroundwith you on that, a little bit
more than that.
But theater, you know, when youbring theater into some of this
and there's a lot to unpack inwhat you said there but when you
bring theater or storytellinginto some of this training or
(07:15):
into some of this sort oftransformational approach that
you're having with your leaders,your team and your leaders,
your team and your organization,what impact do you see that
having on the people'sengagement or having on how they
essentially, how they show upto some of these opportunities
that you're providing?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's a great question.
I love it because it buildsconnection.
When you share a story, you'reable to better connect with a
person because you are creatingsomething emotional in them, and
I think, when it comes totraining into leadership, a good
story can and might start withyou expressing or describing a
(07:59):
time where you failed, you wereembarrassed, you made a mistake.
You can choose how vulnerableyou want to be in that moment,
but when you show how human youare and how you learn from an
experience and grown via thepower, the mode of storytelling,
then people are going toconnect with that story.
(08:20):
They're going to understandbetter the context, why what
you're sharing is important, andthey're going to remember it a
whole lot better than if Isimply give you a list of
instructions or an Ikea stylebooklet.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Go do this, go do that.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
It's going to have more meaning, value and then
expressing the impact as well.
So connection, it's memorable.
It's also entertaining.
One of our values at FMO Mediais to entertain, to educate,
empower, entertain and execute.
In all of those wonderful wordsis an active, emotional and
(09:01):
very powerful thought andapproach to how we can really
help our team members live fullyand work fully together in a
way that gives people agency.
They need to do their job well.
And the same thing, I'll add,because I know this is important
too, we want to chat about itclients, how are you educating,
(09:23):
how are you empowering yourclients?
We don't want work to be boring,right?
I hope we don't want work to beboring, I shouldn't assume, but
we want to have some kind ofengaging, positive experience.
I won't necessarily say fun,because it might not always be
fun.
Experience is very much a wordthat I draw on from my arts
(09:43):
background, my arts marketingbackground, that we're crafting
an experience, and this goes foryour clients and the experience
you're giving with your clientsand sharing with them.
This goes with your team andhow you're experiencing the
relationship, the dynamic, thework dynamic, and how they're
experiencing you, too, workdynamic, and how they're
(10:07):
experiencing you too.
And so how are we building thatculture back to culture again
where we can have reallymeaningful, engaging, positive
experiences, with the caveatthat we know life is not always
roses and sunny days.
We were going to navigate thosechallenges, but if we come with
that mindset of agility andlooking for solutions versus
(10:28):
problems which a lot of learningcan be how am I moving towards
a solution?
Then I think you're going tofind a healthier culture and
company atmosphere overall.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Well, and to piggyback on the storytelling
aspect, you know, one of thethings that we know and
understand is like the cycle ofthe hero's journey and the
transition from, you know, the17 point transition, from being
inspired or being engaged andthen finding ourselves not
having the confidence and thentaking the action and then never
(11:01):
going back, and then all of asudden we find ourselves emerged
out of this new world and I'mreally kind of short scripting
it based on time here butemerging from this new world
completely changed.
And I do think about thathero's journey a lot when we
think about training, becausethere's plenty of times when
content or ideas or even a shiftin culture kind of gets those,
(11:25):
you know, gets the audience orgets the leaders thinking to
themselves like I can't do this,I don't have the skills, I
don't have the knowledge, andit's usually a guide or a mentor
that's able to help them alongthat journey.
That ends up getting them tothe space of okay, there's no
going back from here Because, asyou mentioned, change is hard.
It's ever present, but it'shard.
Our brain is not wired for it.
(11:46):
So you know, we know fromneuroscience and psychology, our
brain is not wired for change,it wants status quo, it wants to
stay in a safe, non-risky typeventure, and learning and
training and change can beincredibly scary.
So we're going to get to the.
We're going to get to theclients and educating the
clients, because I think thatthat can be really important
(12:08):
when we start to think of maybewe're in an organization and our
leaders are actually ourclients.
They're the ones that areasking us for particular things
in the training, talentdevelopment space and we do need
to educate them as much as weneed to educate the participants
.
But I want to stick here forjust one moment, because I think
this storytelling is a reallypowerful concept in terms of
(12:30):
training and talent development.
As you're navigating and maybesharing the story of your
vulnerability, right, and you'retalking about how maybe you
struggled or how you came tothis point and, as you mentioned
, you have that choice of howvulnerable do you want to be, at
what place?
Cause I think this is wheresometimes it can be really
difficult for a trainer, a coachor an HR person.
(12:52):
Where do you draw the line onvulnerability Right, and and and
and?
Hear me out on this real quick.
When we think about it, it'slike, okay, well, maybe I'm
sharing something that, for me,is incredibly vulnerable and I
tell you that I had a yogurtbowl for breakfast and I'm like,
oh my gosh, I just let you intomy world and that that was
vulnerable.
(13:12):
And most people look at thatand be like that's nothing.
And then you have other peoplethat tell maybe a deep, uh
traumatic, story from theirchildhood and really go into
detail about some of thechallenges or barriers maybe
that they faced.
And you know, vulnerabilityseems to have this sort of
subjective quality of what'svulnerable to me may not be to
(13:34):
you.
How, as a storyteller, can wereally match, maybe, the energy
of the audience or how can wereally maximize the value of
demonstrating that vulnerabilitybut not taking it to the cliff
and going over by 15 feet?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, so it doesn't get into TMI and we have our
team questioning our abilitiesas a leader.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah, you're right, there is a subjective element to
it.
I think it also goes back towhat you were saying earlier,
that transformative quality ofstorytelling and how we're
showing the journey from point Ato point B.
And it's not a straight line,it's not a straight exponential
line.
There are going to be sometwists and turns to it.
(14:20):
There's going to be thatinciting incident, there's going
to be that climactic moment andthe denouement that leads us to
a resolution.
And so if you think aboutwhat's the purpose of sharing
this story, what's the impact,what's the transformation that I
hope my team receives from thisstory, and you understand the
(14:41):
goal and why you're sharing it,then you're thinking about the
receiver, the recipient of yourstory, and it's not about you,
and I think that's important.
We have to remember our audience.
Same thing goes for marketing,right, we have to remember that
our content is not meant for us,it's meant for our audience.
And, at the same time, we needto be mindful of our brand image
(15:03):
.
If you're thinking aboutmarketing, we need to be mindful
of our brand image.
If you're thinking aboutmarketing, we need to be mindful
of the perception that our teamis also going to get from us
too.
So it is a tricky road totravel, and there is a fine line
between I'm sharing too muchand I'm sharing just enough so
that you understand thechallenge that I overcame and
how I did it and how Iapproached it in a way that
(15:26):
shows you that I'm human.
But it's not crossing that lineof highlighting perhaps all of
the flaws and the trials and allthe thoughts that people might
not need to be privy to.
They really need to understandthat transformative nature, and
I think a good rule of thumbwould be if you don't feel like
(15:49):
you are comfortable sharingsomething publicly, you probably
shouldn't share it.
It's kind of my same rule ofthumb for putting something
online.
If you have any kind of doubtabout whether it's appropriate
to share this online or not, youprobably should not post it
online.
And I think the same thing goesfor what kind of story you're
sharing with your team.
The other thing, too, I wouldkeep in mind, no matter what
(16:12):
department you're in, but wouldyour HR department?
Would your boss?
would your colleagues feelembarrassed for you in a way
that's cringeworthy.
So that's where, you know, thesubjectivity comes into play.
It takes a little bit ofpractice.
I would maybe run your story bya trusted colleague or a friend
(16:36):
, or maybe spouse partner.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, and that would Second opinion definitely.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, and that's an opinion, definitely yeah.
You get some feedback.
So all of that to say there'ssome nuance to it.
General rule of thumb if that'snot something that you feel
confident in sharing, that isgoing to potentially cause some
maybe uncomfortable tensionwithin your team, then you
probably shouldn't share it.
So think of the team, think ofthe impact you want that story
(17:07):
to share.
Is it relevant to the trainingtoo?
I've been in situations wherepeople are sharing stories and
the story doesn't match Like.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
what the hell does this have to do with anything?
That we're talking about.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
You really just wanted to tell me about your dog
, and that's great.
I love dogs, as you can see,but the story is probably not
relevant to learning aboutwhatever.
X, y or Z is that day, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Well, and I like what you said, it's a reoccurring
theme that we talk about here iskeeping the audience in mind.
As a trainer, as a coach, as aHR person, we often think about,
okay, how do I sound, how do Ilook, what does my slides look
like?
And it's really less about thatthan it's.
How is the audience perceivingme?
What is the audience feelingwhen I'm saying this?
(17:53):
What is the audience reading,or where's their attention drawn
when I'm creating whatever youknow visual representations of
my words?
So it's keeping that audiencein mind is certainly a
reoccurring theme and I thinkit's a great tip that you shared
.
There is kind of you know, thesecond opinion, but also just
making sure that we maintainfocus.
Now, this is where I'm going totransition us and I really want
(18:17):
to dig into this because Ithink it's so important.
Right, you had mentioned notonly training your team, but
also training your clients.
Now, whether you're in thetalent development space as an
external consultant, an externaltrainer, an external coach, or
if you're embedded inside of anorganizational talent
(18:37):
development wing, you haveclients and the clients for you
can look like yourorganizational leadership and
you know one of the things thatwe talk about here, and I'll
lean back into Jess Almley'sconversation that we had here on
the Talent Forge of moving fromorder taker to becoming a
(18:57):
strategic partner so important.
But part of that becoming astrategic partner is also
educating that leadership.
So it's not just about trainingthe people in the room, it's
also about training the peoplethat are requesting your
services or requesting yourexpertise.
Let's get an understanding.
(19:21):
When you mentioned this,obviously it resonated.
It hit with me.
Talk to me about this.
What does it mean to train yourclient as much as it means to
train your leadership?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
So, jay, I'm glad you mentioned your other episode.
I didn't actually get to hearit, but I love that somebody
else is talking about this andencouraging this too.
About this and encouraging thisto the idea of not being an
order taker, because it issomething that we constantly
talk about at FMO that I hold asreally important to keep in
(19:52):
mind.
When you're working with aclient, you are their partner
and you want to be strategic,and we don't want to simply take
a request and fulfill itwithout helping guide the client
towards the best possibledecision for them.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So when I ask you for a giant yellow flyer with 16
different colors and 900 wordsin 2.5, you're not just going to
hand that over to me.
Come on, I'm the client though.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I know Well, our job as project managers and as those
team members is to satisfyrequirements and needs right,
and we want the clients to behappy.
And that's where the conflictcomes in.
Jay, I would love to get youthat poster.
How about we look at this otheroption here, too, because I
wonder if maybe this will helpyour brand image develop the
(20:46):
consistency, the cohesion andthe familiarity that we're
looking for.
How about this other option?
Here's why maybe this one herewhile it's a fun idea, it might
not be the most effective foryou.
I know we're being concise herefor the sake of time for you,
that's, you know.
I know we're being concise herefor sake of time, but that's
(21:07):
how I would try to steer thatconversation towards what's the
best option for the client thatis still going to satisfy
requirements and needs, that isstill going to satisfy them and
make them feel really good aboutworking together.
That isn't simply a okay, gotit.
Good, you'll have that on yourdesk by Monday.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
There's three things that you did there, rebecca,
that I think are brilliant, andI want to draw attention to them
for our audience.
The first thing is youvalidated me.
You didn't tell me no.
You said, wow, cool, that's a,that's a neat idea.
And you did it.
And I didn't feel like you werebeing condescending.
It was authentic, like oh, wow,yeah, I'd love to do that for
(21:49):
you.
Then, second, you offered me analternative to consider.
You didn't say, but let's lookat this.
You didn't give a.
But you didn't give a.
We're not doing that.
You literally said I'd like tobring this into the space for
you to evaluate alongside ofthis option.
And then the third thing thatyou did was you reminded me that
(22:11):
you, that you're on my team andyou know I want to make sure
that your brand and that we havethis and that we're on the same
team and that we're you knowthat this is going to bring you
value.
You did that so succinctly, inless than like two sentences.
I didn't want to lose that,because that is gold and that's
exactly what we've been pushingfor, like don't just be the
(22:35):
order taker, don't just accept,let's validate, let's offer an
alternative and let's have aconversation about it, so I
didn't want to cut you off.
But, wow, just absolutelybrilliant there, rebecca, I
loved that.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Well, you flatter me.
I'm glad you did, though, jay,because I love to give examples
and scenarios, and you summarizethat beautifully, those three
points, and understand where I'mcoming from too.
I love how you said it.
I didn't say no, and that'ssomething that I love to train
the team on is how do we say yesto a client even though we're
trying to steer them in a betterdirection, and not have to say
(23:12):
no, because no can be a very, itcan be a very stalling, or it
is a negative word, but it cancome across in a way that feels
very much like a roadblock to aclient, and they're going to put
up their guard.
They're going to feelpotentially a little defensive
if we tell them no outright, andthis is where the mindset shift
(23:35):
between I'm a problem stacker,as I call it.
Somebody just stacks problemsno, can't do that, not sure, I'm
stuck.
And a problem solver orsolution years, as I also like
to call it.
Somebody just stacks problemsno, can't do that, not sure, I'm
stuck.
And a problem solver, orsolutioneers, as I also like to
call it.
How are you a solution?
Here?
We're always looking for thebest possible approach for the
best possible outcome, and whenyou truly care about the outcome
(23:57):
for your clients and you wantto do right by them and you want
them to succeed.
Same thing with our teammembers, right?
We realize that they're peopleand we all have that desire for
success and achievement andgrowth.
How can we set them up in thebest way possible?
And it wouldn't be right, itwould not be serving them if we
(24:20):
simply say yes to every singlerequest, because their request,
while well-intentioned and maybea fun idea your poster could be
a great idea, jay, and maybe wefind some way to compromise.
But maybe we find some way tocompromise and make that poster
fun, but do it in a way that'sgoing to be effective and
(24:42):
attract the right kind ofattention, right, and so in that
compromise we're collaboratingand we're working together.
But if I were to simply say,yeah, sure, Jay, I can get that
to you, I'm not doing you aservice.
I'm actually taking valuabletime that you are paying for and
I'm distributing it towardssomething that is probably not
(25:05):
going to be in your bestinterest.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Not going to yield the outcome that we want.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Exactly, and you don't know necessarily.
You're not necessarily awarethat that's the case.
So I, who should know better Isay should, but that's a
nebulous word.
I say should, but that's anebulous word I, who might know
better, will be able to serveyou better if I'm able to
(25:30):
educate you as to why that mightnot produce the best outcome.
And here are some otheralternatives that we can do for
you.
So we don't have to say no andhit that roadblock, but we can
say let's look at this asstrategic partners to your
phrase and point, so that we canhead in the right direction
together.
(25:51):
And so that's how I like toapproach it, and I love that
we're in sync and so many otherpeople are aligned with that too
, because at the end of the day,hopefully, we all want that
growth for our clients, and ittakes time to build up that
rapport.
I truly feel like if you startwith that mindset of educating
not condescending, which youpicked up on, but educating and
(26:15):
assuming that your client is thesmartest person in the room, if
you assume that the otherperson is the smartest person in
the room and they know way morethan you they certainly know
more about their business thanyou, then you can approach that
suggestion with a humility, witha deference to the knowledge
that they have, but with anunderstanding that, hey, I want
(26:36):
to help you, and so let me sharesome info that might help you,
as the client, make a decisionwith me, your partner.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
See, and I really like that because and I want to
go one level deeper, at leastone level deeper on this and
part of it is is, you know, froma trainer's perspective, or
maybe if you're just startingout as your freelance training
and you get a call from a clientthat says we need blank
training, and immediately you'relike I don't.
Client that says we need blanktraining, and immediately you're
like I don't think that's goingto fix the problem Sometimes,
(27:09):
is that entry-level freelance orentry-level coach?
It is very, very scary and itcan be exceptionally difficult
to feel like what is pushingback right, like okay, let's,
let's hold there, let's thinkabout that.
That sounds like a great idea,but maybe this is something else
that could also work too, right?
So it's a little scary fromthat outside consultant that
(27:32):
maybe has clients, but from aleadership or from an internal
practitioner, whether they're inHR, whether they're on the
talent development team, in manycases that exchange is
occurring with your singlesource of income.
It is your leader, your boss,this is your career, this is
(27:54):
your long-term.
It's not necessarily just afreelance.
But now I'm saying, okay, thisleader.
And from our behavioral elementsassessment we know that a lot
of executive leadership tend tohave very strong opinions, very
strong drives and generallymakes decisions much quicker
(28:16):
than, say, somebody in themarketing or the talent
development space, which is muchmore about learning and bonding
, collaborating, et cetera.
So you get this directive andnow, at this point in time,
maybe there wasn't that space tohave a conversation right then,
and there Maybe there's.
You know, maybe when you didget that directive, the leader
(28:37):
was upset about something,saying hey, fix this, get this
done, and maybe that momentwasn't the right moment.
How can we go back to that?
How can we create space whenmaybe the space wasn't created
for us or there wasn't theopportunity, we weren't invited
to give our opinion, but it wasmore of that sort of directive
(28:58):
and now recognizing it can bereally scary.
What are your thoughts on that,rebecca?
Speaker 2 (29:04):
This is a great scenario and I'm going to share
some ways that you couldapproach it.
It also brings to mind which wemight want to touch on too, how
you as the trainer, the coach,the guide, can also learn in the
process, because so manythoughts come to mind when you
(29:27):
talk about how the person makingthe request whether it is an
external or internal client theymight not know the actual
problem that they have and theymight not understand the root
problem, but be looking at thesymptom of something.
And so they are quick and Iabsolutely agree.
(29:51):
A lot of us in those roles werevery quick to make a decision
and think we got all the answers.
We have to remember that wedon't know what we don't know.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
And it's oftentimes the people who are, we'll call
it, boots on the ground, thefolks who are in it, executing,
doing the work.
They might have additionalinformation.
At the very least, they'regoing to have a different
perspective on what thechallenges are.
And you, as that coach, guide,trainer, whatever your
(30:25):
responsibility is in thedevelopment space, this can be a
great moment for us to askquestions and get to the heart
of what the person mightactually be looking for.
This is something that I applyto individuals, you can apply to
groups, you can apply to yourexternal clients, you can apply
to your executive team, yourcolleagues, of course, doing so
(30:48):
in a way that's respectful andappropriate, right, but asking
the how questions and the whatquestions before you necessarily
ask the why questions so thatwe're not putting people
immediately on the defensive.
Well, why do you need that kindof training?
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Tell me a little bit more.
What's going on with the teamthat brings this training to top
priority for you?
How can I best support yourteam in this training, or what
(31:25):
are you observing or noticingthat I can find a way to
navigate through my training andaddress for the team that needs
that support, if you start?
Speaker 1 (31:29):
great framed questions.
I really like those.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Well, I love it's hard, right, it's hard for us to
think of them in the moment,but I love having questions that
I know can help get to the rootcause, prepped and ready, when
I run into those roadblocks of,hey, we need this or do this or
I want you to.
Hey, we need this or do this orI want you to.
(31:55):
And I think you know going backto culture again, I'm probably
going to sound like a brokenrecord, but if you develop a
culture of curiosity, your wholeteam is going to be curious
with you and they're going tolook for that deeper insight and
info gathering so thateverybody can make the best
decision.
Because, jay, I feel likepeople make bad decisions for
(32:18):
usually two reasons One is theydon't have the info that they
need to make a good decision andtwo, they're not motivated to
make a good decision.
And we could talk about how youmotivate people.
That's probably a whole othertopic in and of itself, but the
info part is so crucial becauseif we give people the benefit of
the doubt we all want to makegood decisions, right Then how
(32:41):
do we make sure we're givingthem the best info to make the
best decision, whether I'm aleader requesting a training and
even though I'm a leaderdeveloping, I have other leaders
that I work with who I requesttrainings from, and I have to
make sure that I'm asking theright questions and they are
open and feel comfortable askingme questions to get to the
(33:04):
heart of what is reallyimportant, what's really going
to be impactful and a good useof our time.
Because the other thing too,jay, especially in the agency
world, but any business, we'reso busy, right?
We're recording this now duringThanksgiving holiday week.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
It's a short for everybody.
Happy Thanksgiving, everyoneHappy.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Thanksgiving yeah, I cleared the calendar of any
meeting that was not going toproduce an efficient and
effective result for us withinthis week, because I need to be
so mindful of everybody's time.
And so, if we also think oftraining as the time that it
takes to invest in someone, andnot treating that lightly, but
(33:45):
really thinking, how are wemaximizing and optimizing this
training so that people can takewhat we're teaching them and
then go off and apply it?
Because when you don't apply oryou can't apply and this is,
for the audience, rhetoricalbecause you can't answer, but I
would love to maybe see commentsfrom this what have you
(34:08):
experienced, or when have youexperienced a time where you've
been asked to learn something,or you went off to learn
something and you immediatelyforgot it because you didn't use
it and apply it, and it wasn'trelevant.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
And Rebecca, I can tell you that the data on this
and the science on this, theforgetting curve tells us that
if we don't use it within, if wedon't use it or access it
within two days, 70% of thelearning is gone.
Within two weeks, it's 90% ofthe learning is gone.
And, from the other perspective, generally less than 23% of
(34:43):
people that are participating ina training will actually take a
behavioral action related tothat training, which is.
Those are abysmal stats, butthose are the ones that are
pretty, pretty widespreadthroughout the industry.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Those are amazing and also, I believe it, too Amazing
in the sense that it reallydoes make you consider how am I
structuring this training?
Is it accessible for everybody?
In this training, too, I loveto include any kind of
workshopping or activity,definitely have a takeaway or
action items following atraining and I know we're diving
(35:22):
into a little bit more of thatside of things and further away
from your original question, butI do encourage everybody.
How are we taking our time andusing it wisely and investing it
towards the actual problem witha more practical, relevant
solution?
Because, to your point, noteverybody is going to absorb it
(35:45):
and I would be curious what'sthe difference between a
training that is extremelyrelevant and timely and
impactful versus a training thatisn't relevant and people don't
connect with and doesn'taddress the root challenge or
problem or the type of growth?
Because we can look at it fromthe positive side too where do
(36:07):
we need to enhance and supportthe team?
If it doesn't address thosethings, then are those stats
even lower and more shocking tous?
Speaker 1 (36:16):
It wouldn't surprise me at all.
I think you hit the nail on thehead when you said the
difference between the symptomsand the root cause, right, like
a lot of times, if we're sittingin the leadership seat, we're
suffering the symptoms but notnecessarily throw this training
at it.
It's almost like you go to thedoctor's office and they don't
(36:36):
know your exact diagnosis.
So they're like here, takeamoxicillin for several days,
give me a call and let me knowif that worked or not, and it's
just like okay.
Five days later it's just likethat didn't work.
Okay, come back in, we're goingto give you a steroid.
Now.
That didn't work, okay, let'stry something else.
And it's just trial and errorwhich, quite frankly, is
expensive and true in medical,true in marketing, I'm sure,
(36:58):
true in training and everywhereelse.
It's expensive, it takes a lotof time and there's a lot of
sunk costs that occur along thatway.
So that question of managingthe symptom or getting to that
root cause, there's twoadditional questions.
I love the questions that yousaid.
Two additional ones I like touse myself.
(37:19):
One is what behaviors are youseeing that tell you that this
is a problem?
And I really try to get them tofocus on the observable
behaviors, because thatoftentimes gives me some insight
.
And then the second one is Itotally steal, uh, brene Brown,
and I know it comes from scrumlanguage, but what does done
look like?
(37:39):
What are the outcomes that youwant from this, and do we think
that this type of a training isgoing to get us to those
outcomes?
So I wanted to kind of add ontothat I I really really
appreciate that symptom versusroot cause, and sometimes we
think the symptom is the rootcause, even though it's probably
(38:00):
not so, rebecca, I want to askone more question in this space
because I think this is probably, if I was to rate the biggest
challenges in talent developmenttoday, it is.
It's a disconnect between thetrainers, the coaches, the HR
practitioners and leadership,and leadership I'm using is sort
(38:23):
of synonymous with client,whoever it is, that's the
decision maker that's making thecalls on budget, that's making
the calls on hiring and firing,that's making the calls on
whether your contract's gettingextended or whether your
division's going to becompletely cut.
So I'm using those sort ofinterchangeably in this space
because I think it affects bothfreelancers as well as in
(38:46):
embedded trainers and talentdevelopment specialists.
So that is, I think, thebiggest challenge what do we do
when we get that leader and Ithink that this is a question
that's often difficult, and I'msure that you've seen this
before in the marketing spacewhen you get that leader, you
give that encouragement, youpush back gently, you guide and
(39:10):
at the end of the day, they justare not having it.
And and this was something thatwas brought up in a couple of
other conversations like thisLike we know that there's those
clients out there that are likeno, this is how I want it.
I want you to do it this way.
You know it's not going to beeffective.
You know that Jay's flyer sucks, uh, you know that this is not
(39:33):
going to produce the outcomes.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
How, how, what are some thoughts on handling that
type of a situation, when thatperson is so locked into their
own biases, beliefs, whatever itis, that they're just not
willing to give space fordialogue, collaboration,
strategic partnership, thinking?
What do you think on that?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
That's another great question and scenario.
I have run into that multipletimes in different ways and well
, there are two things that I'lltouch on.
I'll address the scenario first, and it goes back to that
education right, and if they'renot open to collaborating and
seeing different points of viewand different options, then
(40:21):
approaching it with theunderstanding that I hear you, I
understand what you're askingfor.
You might need to ask someadditional questions for extra
clarity in case the request isvague, but once you have that
understanding of what they'reasking for, I would then again
share what the outcome is thatyou expect to see from that and
(40:45):
be okay with them making thatdecision and sharing something
to the effect of hey, jay, Iunderstand what you're asking
for, I understand this isimportant to you and that you
are very passionate about thisyellow poster project.
So I want to make sure that wefulfill your needs and
(41:05):
requirements as best as possibleand in a way that makes you
satisfied and happy.
I do have those other ideasthat I'm more than happy to
re-evaluate with you if you sochoose.
I do want to clarify that if wego down this path, these are
the expected outcomes.
I could be very wrong at thesame time, because sometimes you
(41:29):
never know what could happen orwhat might change.
From what I've seen before withother clients, from other
experiences, this is the patternof result that I typically see
with a project like this.
As long as you are an agreementand this is, you're okay with it
, this outcome being thepotential outcome then I'm more
(41:52):
than happy to do everything inmy power to make this a
successful poster for you.
And if we need to pivot andchange our approach, then I'm
going to communicate as much aspossible throughout the progress
and you can come to me with asmuch feedback as you need, and
we can change if we and if youso choose.
(42:12):
I just want to be really clearon my experience and the pattern
that I see potentiallyhappening as a result.
And so if you break it down forthem, you acknowledge the
importance of the request, youhave an acknowledgement of what
they're asking for and that youhear and understand them and
give them that expectation, youhave a little bit of a buffer
(42:37):
for yourself.
You have that paper I wouldhave that paper trail for
yourself, too of outlining whatthey might expect and what's in
your power and capacity if yougo down that route and there are
varying degrees to which youcan do that.
A poster might be somethingless.
You might take a simplerapproach to that, a training,
(43:00):
where you're training, you know,20 people or more, or you're
coaching or mentoring a teammember to get them to a certain
point.
You might have to havelengthier discussions, but it
would go back to that educationand helping to guide the person
towards what they might expectfrom the decision that they're
making.
Speaker 1 (43:19):
Rebecca, that actually might be one of my
favorite answers to thatquestion and again I'm going to
give you kind of the threethings that I pulled out of
there.
The first thing that you didwas you started with an
excessive not excessive in a badway an excessively great amount
of empathy and you validatedagain you saw them again to keep
(43:40):
that sort of defense mechanismfrom rearing up.
The second thing is I think youdid a really nice job of
demonstrating.
This is what I'm understanding.
This is what you want.
This is important.
These are the potentialconsequences.
So you again went back to yourconcept of here's all of the
(44:04):
information.
This is the patterns that I'veseen from these types of things.
We know that this is theoutcomes and I'm not certain
that these are going to line up.
But if this is, you now haveall the information.
I've given it to you.
Now it's time for you to makethat final decision and I'm
going to do everything I can toexecute.
And if they still are notmoving at that point in time,
sure, we've got to execute,we've got to follow and do what
(44:24):
it is, but at this point you'veempathized.
You gave them all of theinformation and you gave them
that last opportunity to reallysay is this what I want?
Was I making that decision onimpulse?
Was I making that decisionhastily?
I really love the way that youcommunicated that.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Well, thank you.
It takes a lot of practice andexperience to get to that point
too.
So I know it might not comeeasily for everybody, but I do
encourage everyone to practicehaving those difficult
conversations, because theybecome easier when you have that
empathetic and I like to thinkof it as empathy and
expectations You're outliningexpectations and then you're
(45:04):
approaching it empatheticallywith them and then the active
part is where you can havecompassion for who they are and
what they do and what they needfrom you, and you can be
compassionate in how you followup on that with them.
The other thing that I wantedto highlight from what you had
said in setting up the scenarioto Jay is the understanding of
(45:25):
transparency, and I'm going toborrow from Simon Sinek, who
says that transparency is aboutgiving context.
It's not about kind of back towhat we were saying earlier
about storytelling.
We don't have to let our wholeslip show.
We give context so that peopleunderstand the decisions that we
are making or that we arehoping that we will make
(45:46):
together.
And so if you're transparentand then proactive I love
proactive communication I thinkthat can be the most strategic
because you're getting ahead ofa potential problem or question
or the education that might beneeded, and you have the other
person, the recipient, in mind.
(46:07):
So it's not about you, but it'sabout how do I make sure that
that other person feels safe,feels informed, feels
comfortable in our conversationand their needs are prioritized
because I am here to serve them.
Whether we're serving our team,whether we're serving clients,
I take that servant leadershipapproach of how can I remove a
(46:30):
roadblock for you and not be theroadblock or the bottleneck for
you.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
And I've heard you say serving a couple of times.
I was going to ask you aboutserving leadership because I
kind of figured that that wassort of your frame.
Just hearing like this is how Ican serve you, bastard.
This is the cert.
You know, I am here servingyour interests and so you use
the vernacular in there.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
Thank you.
I truly believe there aredifferent types and models of
leadership that we can use andtake on as needed.
It's certainly the situationalleadership also comes to mind
here the default that I findbeneficial very much for me.
I can only speak to personalexperience, but the default for
(47:15):
me is servant leadership,because if I am serving the
other person, then it's aboutwhat is best for them and their
needs, and I can then adaptmyself my leadership style, the
mode of training orcommunication, to make sure that
whatever I'm imparting to themand sharing with them is given
(47:36):
in a way that gives value andlifts them up versus tears them
down or makes them feel inferioror or or.
How can I make sure that I'msupporting that person in the
actions that I take, in thecommunication, communication
that I share, in the way that Igive and receive information to
and from them?
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Rebecca, I think this has been an incredible
conversation and I really lovebringing in this operations and
the marketing experience to thissort of the transformation of
being out of the order takerbusiness and into that strategic
partner, and I really love thetactics and tips that you were
able to share with the audiencetoday.
(48:19):
If our audience wanted to getin touch with you, how might
they be able to reach out to you?
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Absolutely so.
I love connecting with people.
On LinkedIn you can find me,Rebecca Curison Vickers.
I'm more than happy to connectwith others and share, give
whatever value that I can foranyone who might be in the space
and want some additionalpractical tips.
I also have a newer podcast out.
It's called Bad Bosses GreatLeaders.
(48:44):
We're there to highlight andfeature great leaders in the
space and how they're equippingtheir team and growing new
leaders beside them, and so youcan check that out on
greatleaderspodcastcom, and Ilove to be able to spread the
word so that we can really trulydevelop people who are reaching
their fullest potential andcreating better, healthier work
(49:06):
environments.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Love it.
We'll make sure that those arein the show notes, so go and
give a listen.
Obviously, leadership is one ofthe most important things that
we can be developing inourselves and in our teams, so I
want to say thank you, rebecca,for being here with us today,
for sharing your wisdom andexperience.
This has been an incredibleconversation and I'm just I'm so
grateful that you took the time, even in this busy week of a
(49:30):
holiday, to be here with us onthe Talent Forge.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Thank you so much, jay.
It's a week of gratitude, soI'm incredibly grateful to be
able to share my experience andhope that it will be practical
and valuable for others.
Thank you so much for having me.
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
I will extend that gratitude to you, the audience.
Thank you for tuning into thisepisode of the Talent Forge,
where together we are shapingthe future of training and
development.
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