March 20, 2025 • 42 mins
Dive into an insightful conversation with Emma Rainville, dubbed the Wizard of Ops, as she shares her unparalleled wisdom on the intersection of operations and talent development. With an incredible journey from managing one of the largest HVAC companies in Texas to becoming a fractional COO, Emma unveils the secret ingredients for operational success.
Join us as we explore the fundamentals of effective operations in talent development. This discussion serves as an invaluable resource for anyone looking to enhance their organizational effectiveness and drive meaningful change.
Meet the Host
Jay Johnson works with people and organizations to empower teams, grow profits, and elevate leadership. He is a Co-Founder of Behavioral Elements®, a two-time TEDx speaker, and a designated Master Trainer by the Association for Talent Development. With a focus on behavioral intelligence, Jay has delivered transformational workshops to accelerate high-performance teams and cultures in more than 30 countries across four continents. For inquiries, contact jay@behavioralelements.com or connect below!
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjohnsonccg/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/jayjohnsonccg/
Speaker Website - https://jayjohnsonspeaks.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jay Johnson (00:01):
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today we have a special guestwho is known as the Wizard of
Ops, emma Rainville.
Welcome to the show, emma.
Thank you so much for having me, jay.
Yeah, emma, I'm really excitedabout this conversation because
I think it is something that intalent development and learning
(00:23):
development, we often see kindof a failure to really think
about long-term operations orhow to structure our operations.
But before we do that, let'sget you acclimated to the
audience.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
this space.
Emma Rainville (00:38):
Sure.
So I am a fractional COO.
I work with multiple people indirect response coaching
mastermind spaces.
I stumbled upon it on accident.
I was a COO of a large servicecompany, an HVAC company, the
largest HVAC company in Texasand life happened and I needed a
(01:02):
remote job.
So I started doing SOPs fordirect response marketers.
Then I became the COO of acompany, then I grew that
company, then I grew it somemore, Then I started a
fractional COO service, then Istarted a customer service
agency, then I started a mediaagency and it just kind of
exploded from there.
Life just did it for me.
(01:22):
But, um, I found that I have atrue passion for operations and
I have a true passion to helpvisionary leaders who are trying
to impact the world in apositive way.
I really enjoy helping themmake money doing it, um, and
helping them help as many peopleand touch as many lives as we
(01:43):
can, because I have no abilityto do that, so I have to somehow
I love it, you know.
Jay Johnson (01:50):
so I do want to dig into that COO experience
because, from a talentdevelopment perspective,
oftentimes you know it's theoperations officer that's really
got their finger on the pulseof the entirety of the business.
And when something is broughtdown to L&D or to the talent
development space, oftentimesthey're told we need a training
(02:10):
on blank and the COO or theexecutive team.
They may have a bigger vision,but that doesn't mean that
that's always translated.
So if we're in talentdevelopment and the COO or the
CEO or whomever brings that sortof directive down, how might we
be able to get more information?
Or how might we be able toestablish a conversation to
(02:32):
better understand, okay, what'sthe real need here and how do we
operate forward to make surethat we're hitting the business
objectives?
Can you comment on that?
Emma Rainville (02:39):
Absolutely.
I'm going to bring it back alittle bit, though, jay, because
I think a lot of people in thespace don't have COOs, they
don't find it important enoughto spend money on, which
obviously I feel is a mistake.
But let's just go with that,because I think that what you'll
find is either the COO isn't atrue COO, they're more like a
(03:02):
project manager, or a productcreator named COO isn't a true
COO, they're more like a projectmanager or a product creator
named COO.
Very few people in our spaceare true and real COOs that know
how to run a COO role.
So I just want to put that outthere Now.
That makes a lot of sense.
I also believe that in the spaceof helping people, believe that
(03:26):
in the space of helping people,it isn't actually that hard to
run operations because thebusiness is so simplified.
So let's go back to yourquestion on what if there's a
new course?
What if there's a newinitiative?
What if there's a new trainingthat needs to happen, a workshop
, whatever?
I think that the easiest andbest path for anyone ever,
whether they have a CEO or not,is to start with a foundational
(03:47):
framework.
What is your vision?
Who exactly is your avatar thatyou're trying to help, what are
you trying to provide themtoday and what are you going to
provide them tomorrow?
Because that allows us tostrategically plan how we
position everything from ourmembers area that may not be
able to support future productsto our merchant area that may
not be able to support futureproducts, to our merchant
accounts that may not be able tosupport future initiatives and
(04:09):
products and coaching, and itjust really sets what we're
doing, why we're doing it andwho we're doing it with.
Jay Johnson (04:16):
Sure.
Yeah, Outlining getting that upfront seems to make a lot of
sense, right, because then weknow what our employees have to
do to provide that promise ofvalue.
Emma Rainville (04:27):
Right, and we're also using a lot of vendors a
lot of times.
So being able to say I helppeople lose weight or I help
people build businesses or Ihelp people grow their
portfolios, that's just notenough.
We need a true vision, a truemission, a true purpose, a true
cause, a true avatar and trueuniques that we can articulate
(04:48):
easily for vendors and employeesthat are on our behalf, serving
our clients.
And so that's like the firstand foremost, and I can tell you
that every single personlistening goes yep, I have that.
Go ask five people that you'veworked with over the past year
what your vision is and none ofthem will say the same thing.
I'll guarantee it.
I've worked with a lot ofclients over the years over a
(05:09):
thousand and I've never one timehad everyone be able to
articulate it that didn't gothrough my WAVE program prior to
coming on.
So we have a program calledWAVE where it's written vision,
absolute focus, values-drivenfuture and execution plan.
You come for three days and dothat.
Jay Johnson (05:27):
So some of our clients had been through that
and and they could articulate it, but outside of that, never,
ever sunny weather so well and Ilove that you bring that up,
because I do think that it is ahuge challenge across
organizations where you don'thave a solidified mission,
vision, value, set of values orthings that are kind of
determining your future decisionmaking or how you're going to
(05:50):
operate or how you're going toshow up in a time of a crisis or
those types of things, andwhile everybody has it on their
website as a marketing tool,it's not being used as an
organizational tool.
That's not it.
Emma Rainville (06:02):
And that's not it anyway.
That's never.
Anyway.
A true vision has where you'regoing to be in a year.
What are your commitments togetting done this year?
What milestones have you hit atyears three and five and what
is the big picture on year 10?
What services we're providing,what offers do we have, what
products are we selling?
What's my involvement in thebusiness?
(06:23):
Is the visionary leader orowner spokesperson, coach, ceo,
like where do I live here 10years from now?
And so a vision is far biggerthan a three line mission
statement or marketing strategyRight, and so really sitting
down and creating that generallytakes about three days, and
once you have that, though, itgives you so much insight into
(06:46):
how to make decisions for thebusiness, because you know
exactly what you're trying toaccomplish.
And then the second componentis creating an operational
framework.
So what's the framework that welive and breathe by in the
business that allows us to reachthe vision?
And the reason why that'simportant is you've said it
twice now reacting.
(07:06):
You've used the word reactingtwice, and a lot of times.
As business owners, we'rereacting.
I don't react.
I respond because I have a plan,and my plan is very strategic.
I know what I'm doing, I knowwhat my purpose is, I know what
my focus is.
I also know what things I needto be signaled to, to pay
attention to, and when thosethings are out of place.
Because I've created that plan,I don't need to wait until
(07:28):
there's a burning fire thatmesses up my entire day.
I can see that things arestarting to smoke a little bit
and I can get that under controllong before it turns into
flames.
Jay Johnson (07:38):
Yeah, and that reaction is oftentimes where L&
D feels because it's getting adirective put down.
So my friend Jess Almey talksabout this all the time, about
moving from being an order takerin L and D to being a strategic
partner.
Right now, I know what might begoing through the head of some
of the people that are on here.
(07:59):
Okay, emma, I hear you, but Idon't.
I'm not at that table.
I don't get to make thosedecisions on vision.
I don't get to make thosedecisions on what the direction
of the company is.
Basically, all I'm getting isfrom either COO, ceo or whomever
down.
This is what we need.
End of story.
(08:19):
Let's move forward.
Is there a way to approachhaving a better dialogue with
maybe some of those decisionmakers or people that are
setting up the frameworks for us?
Emma Rainville (08:31):
Yeah, I love this question as well, because
if you're responsible for theproduct you're responsible for,
or if you're responsible for theoutcome and you're not
responsible for the vision, youhave to make sure that you've
checked your boxes in order todeliver what is expected of you,
and if you don't, it's veryunlikely that you'll meet
(08:51):
expectations.
I don't know a person thatknows how to anticipate
expectations that they haven'tbeen given.
Jay Johnson (08:57):
Right.
Emma Rainville (08:58):
Including myself , after years and years and
years of working.
Jay Johnson (09:01):
I've tried, it hasn't worked.
Emma Rainville (09:04):
It absolutely doesn't work, and so, but here's
the easiest path forward tohaving a sustainable
relationship with the hierarchythat doesn't understand that you
need more direction and that'sI don't know a company that
doesn't have or wouldn't.
Upon request, get you a projectmanagement tool, okay, and you
(09:26):
build out what you believe theoffer that doesn't have or
wouldn't.
Upon request, get you a projectmanagement tool Okay, and you
build out what you believe theoffer, the product, the course,
whatever it is that they'reasking you to create Is it a
workshop, like, what are youcreating for people?
And you build that out in aproject management tool as a
project complete, in full, okay,so that it isn't just because
(09:49):
generally when you get adirective from a higher up, it's
a pretend it's a fitnesscompany.
Go, create a seven day journeyof metabolic eating that will
help burn fat, with seven minuteworkouts each day accompanying
them for weight loss and energy.
Okay, that can mean so manythings, a lot of things, and so
(10:12):
if I go and I create a completeproject on where I'm going to
start a whole checklist of, I'mgoing to hire a nutritionist,
they're going to give me recipes, I'm going to have a shopping
list, I'm going to create themeal plan.
I'm going to create theworkouts.
We're going to book a studio sowe can film the you know, film
the workouts If you have it allthere.
(10:37):
And then I say to you hey, jay,you wanted this done.
Would you mind taking fiveminutes to look it over and make
sure that I've understood yourdirection well and correct me
where I may have made a mistake?
When you take responsibilityand ownership over I don't want
to use the word failure, butover the failure to understand
the actual mission of the task,then your hierarchy is going to
(10:58):
be not only way more likely tolook at it, but also way more
forgiving when you didn't get itright because you didn't build
it yet.
Jay Johnson (11:00):
Yep Well, and that's a powerful lesson.
That also comes even fromdesign thinking.
I know we've talked aboutdesign thinking on this, of get
the prototype together and thatdoesn't have to be a final
product.
That could be a cardboardprototype for as far as that
goes, so that way we can atleast kind of test it, get an
idea Is this hitting the mark?
Is this helping us hit ourobjectives?
(11:22):
And, you know, are we on theright pathway?
So I really really like that.
The other thing that I heard yousay and I think is is really is
really powerful is puttingtogether the project plan.
So from a from a learningdevelopment background, or from
a learning development or evenHR, you know, when we're putting
(11:43):
some kind of an initiativetogether, it's almost like we
start with.
We start with putting thecontent together rather than
putting the organizationalstructure together.
So this really does encourageus to really think about, go
back to the basics, get theobjectives down, get the
resources needed down, get theresearch and timing down and all
(12:07):
of those things, before youactually start putting the
content together.
So I really really love thatproject management focus Now,
yeah, go ahead.
Nama.
Emma Rainville (12:16):
I was just gonna say.
One of my favorite parts aboutthat is I can eliminate 20% of
projects just by the first thingthey open is the budget,
Because they didn't realize theydidn't even like.
It just seems so easy.
And a visionary entrepreneur,someone who's trying to truly
help people, that understandswhat needs to happen, doesn't
(12:40):
necessarily understand what goesinto making the products that
help them, make that happen forthem, if that makes sense at all
.
And so, yeah, once you startseeing, you know production
costs and everything else.
I'm not even joking when I say20% of the time I'll be told
let's pause on this when theyrealize the resources that are
(13:00):
involved, Rather than all theexecutives and management or
ownership being upset becauseyou're halfway through a product
so they have to go through itwith it because you've already
spent half the money and theydidn't even think it was going
to cost a quarter of it.
Jay Johnson (13:16):
I love that.
So, and and it's so true,because there are a lot of these
different moving parts and someof them are absolute barriers,
and I can imagine where budgetwould be a major one.
So let's, let's shift gearshere for just a moment.
And now I know that you've beenworking with as a fractional
COO and you've been helpingorganizations set up operations,
(13:39):
but I'm going to put us intothe context of all.
Right, I am in the L&Ddepartment, or I'm a trainer
inside of that space, or hell,I'm even in the HR department.
How can I use concepts ofstrong operations to really help
myself in navigating, becauseeveryone, every HR person I've
(14:03):
talked to, every L&D person thatI've talked to, is overwhelmed,
burned out, doesn't know whichproject to start, which project
to close, how to prioritize, etc.
Could you maybe talk about whatare some best practices from
the operation side of thingsthat we could be thinking about
to incorporate into our talentdevelopment space?
Emma Rainville (14:21):
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but
it really is going through andcreating that foundational and
operational framework within anoperational framework, just so
we can be I.
I I'm going to go backwardsjust a little bit and
shamelessly self-promote.
I wrote a book called scope,which is a foundational and
operational framework.
(14:42):
It walks you through it, and soscope is setting your vision,
creating processes, operationalexcellence, people, development
and execution.
No business works without allfive of those.
No business works fluently,profitably and and um and and
within operational excellencewithout those five components.
(15:02):
So the execution plan is themost important part for what
you're talking about.
So when I have the vision, Iknow where I'm going, I know
what I'm doing and I created myinitiative for the next 10 years
and it's a picture right Likethings are going to change
drastically as the world changes.
Ai changed everything, roboticsis changing everything and
we're going to continue to growand those things will shift.
(15:24):
But my year one commitments.
I don't need to figure out whatmy priorities are three months
into my year or four months intothe year, because I already
created them.
I have an execution plan ofwhat I'm going to do this year.
I have commitments of what I'mgoing to accomplish and then
priorities are already set forme.
So, as there's always going tobe issues within businesses and
(15:46):
fires that need to be put out,but there'll be a lot less
because I planned be put out,but there'll be a lot less
because I planned and as theycome in I'll be able to look at
them and prioritize based off ofconsequence of them, existing
right, their mere existence.
But overall, new projects, newproducts, new initiatives, new
events, new whatever we're doingin our business is already
(16:07):
planned out, so I don't need tofigure out where the pieces go,
getting nothing done because I'mspending so much time trying to
figure out where the pieces gobecause I took the time to
strategically plan over here.
Does that make sense?
Jay Johnson (16:20):
Yeah.
So setting up that sort ofguardrails in the very beginning
, how would one go aboutstarting that process?
What does that look like inactual application or
implementation?
Emma Rainville (16:33):
Sure.
So we generally do like athree-day, just completely shut
off of everything.
I like to do a Friday to aSunday only because as business
owners, we really justcompletely shut everything off.
For three days in our businessusually isn't unless you've got
a massive organization.
(16:54):
Usually isn't possible.
So I like to do a friday,because a friday isn't that big
of a deal to take off to asunday and I sit down and the
first thing I do is I look at mypersonal life and my
professional life, and I look atboth, because you'll build your
business to ruin your life.
People do it all the time.
You dream big but you didn'tthink about I have two kids, or
(17:17):
I wanted to have kids, or I havea spouse that I didn't write
into the daily plans.
I'm 10x-ing my business everyyear, but I forgot that I need
to go on date nights and Iforgot that I need to go to
soccer games.
Right, so I take and I put themside by side.
What do I want for my personallife over the next 10 years and
what do I want for my businesslife?
And I look at that part really,really quickly.
(17:38):
It's like if the ghost ofChristmas future came and got me
in the middle of the night andbrought me to my bedroom window.
What would my life look like?
And then he brought me to myoffice window.
What would my business looklike?
It's that simple on 10 years,because you can't go too deep
there and I always workbackwards In order to get there
and have those things.
What do I need to have done infive years, both personally and
(18:00):
professional?
And then I do the same thingfor three years, and then my
one-year commitments are reallyeasy, because I know in three
years I got to do this.
In five years, I got to do thisIn five years.
I want to have this.
So what do I need to do thisyear to get marked off the list?
So I'm on track for my ultimategoals and where I want to be.
So that's the first thing.
So that's written vision.
The next thing is what am Iabsolutely focused on If you
(18:23):
don't have an absolute focus?
You're throwing wrenches allthe time, you're seeing shiny
objects all the time and you'renever focusing on the thing that
truly makes impact for thepeople that you want to serve.
So an absolute focus looks likeI'll make one up.
We are.
It's going to be a purpose orcause.
(18:44):
So our purpose is to helpanyone who's willing down a path
of complete mind, body andspirit health.
I don't know, that wasn't great, but you get the idea and that
would probably be somebody who'smaking products for people to
have mind, alliance, chakras,whatever Right.
(19:04):
So that's what I'm absolutelyfocused on.
So when something comes into mysphere, I'm asking myself does
that align with my absolutefocus?
So if there's a building forrent or a building for sale and
it's a great price and I canmake a bunch of money on real
estate, does that align with myfocus?
Jay Johnson (19:21):
Probably not.
Emma Rainville (19:22):
No, so I get to start a new LLC or throw it in
the trash.
I don't get to bring it intothis ecosphere.
I keep it safe from thatbecause it's not what I'm
absolutely focused on.
Then we're going to dovalues-driven future.
We spend so much timeunderstanding our customer
avatar.
How come we don't spend time onthe avatar that is our
(19:43):
employees and our vendors thatare serving our customers?
So you're going to sit down andyou're going to spend time
really understanding the valuesthat are important to you, for
the people that work for you,work with you to serve your
clientele, and that's anywherefrom four to six attributes.
So mine you have to be aproactive problem solver to work
(20:05):
with me.
If you see that a problem isgoing to happen and you do
nothing about it, you'reprobably not going to be with me
very long.
Integrity is really big for me.
It's really important to me.
People who have a we over mementality, who want to serve the
group rather than justthemselves, is important to me,
and so you'll come up with fourto six of those, and that's the
(20:26):
values that everybody who is inyour organization both vendors
and employees, and you and yourexecutive staff have to maintain
and hold value to 365 days ayear, okay.
And then, finally, is theexecution plan.
So I have my one-yearcommitments.
(20:47):
We talked about that earlier,remember?
So I've got my one-yearcommitments.
Great.
What happens when you tell abunch of people to do a bunch of
things and bring it back to youin a year?
Okay.
Jay Johnson (20:56):
Well, in a lot of cases they come back and do it
about a week before it's due.
Right If they get it done atall.
Emma Rainville (21:04):
If they get it done at all.
It's I forgot, I didn't realize, I didn't know.
So we create an execution plan.
The way that we do that iswe're going to break down the
first quarter, we're going tolook at what we need to
accomplish the first year, and Iwant to know what I need to get
done the first quarter.
And what I'm always thinkingabout is I need to get all of
these done by October, because,I promise you, things are going
to come up and things are goingto happen and resources are
(21:26):
going to be needed that wedidn't think about and it's
going to get pushed back.
So if I have it set to be donein October, I'm definitely going
to get it done by the end ofthe year, right?
So what do I need to get donein Q1 by March 31st 2025, what
do I need to have accomplishedof my quarter one goals?
And if I'm coming out with newproducts, maybe it's the
research and development.
(21:46):
If I need to build a newmembers area, because I really
want an interactive members areathat's proprietary to me and
I'm having built, maybe it's youknow, hire the developers and
create the development plan.
So I'm going to have all my Q1goals.
But now what?
What happens when you go andyou hand people things and three
months later come back they'renot done.
(22:08):
So we set up, depending on thecompany, weekly or bi-weekly
what I call breakers.
It's a break from working inthe business to working on the
business, and all of your keyplayers that are responsible for
those quarterly goals.
They're going to sit with youand they're going to go over
each one of their goals wherethey're at, what they
accomplished this week, whatresources they need, where
(22:30):
they're struggling, what they'reworried about Is it on track?
Is it off track?
What's going on?
You're going to know everythingabout it every week or every
other week.
The odds of them not completingthat task when you do that
every week or every other weekare slim to none, as long as
you've given them the resourcesthey need.
Jay Johnson (22:46):
Sure, it sounds like I mean this is that
principle of execution, theconcept of being able to see,
being able to track, being ableto look, is no different than,
you know, taking a trip andbeing like how far have I gotten
this day of driving, how farhave I gotten this day of
driving?
It's not like you're just goingto one day, you're going to
drive for six days and then allof a sudden be like where am I,
(23:09):
you know?
So that makes a lot of sense.
Now, again from the learningand development perspective.
Without being the CEO, withoutbeing the person responsible for
, per se, growing the business,or 10 timings the business, can,
an individual in anorganization, or maybe the
leader of the L&D team, theleader of HR, could they do this
(23:32):
process or think about thisprocess from their own position?
Even if it's not the fullcompany perspective, it seems
like you could probably adaptthis at the divisional level as
well.
Would that be fair, or is thatsomething?
Emma Rainville (23:46):
I have customer service agents that go through
this and customer service agentsokay this and create this so
frontline actual like, if you're, if your executive team is not
providing it for you and they'repaying you, why wouldn't you?
Jay Johnson (24:05):
Solve the problem.
Emma Rainville (24:06):
Solve the problem.
And when you can display trueleadership, what happens to your
career anyway?
Jay Johnson (24:12):
Generally it accelerates.
Emma Rainville (24:13):
I hear all the time oh, that's not my job.
Well, that's probably whyyou'll always have a job.
Jay Johnson (24:19):
Or not have a job soon.
Emma Rainville (24:21):
Right, right, right.
You have an opportunity to takecontrol and be a leader, and so
why not?
And if you're not going in theright direction, you just make
sure that the person youdirectly report to can see like
hey, I don't have anyinitiatives, I'm just, you know,
kind of working every day.
It seems like you know weshould have some initiatives.
Here's what I created formyself.
(24:42):
Would you give me feedback onthat?
And if they don't like that, gowork somewhere else.
Jay Johnson (24:47):
Sure, Well, and I like that because that's
essentially if the guardrailsaren't being put out for you,
set your own and then you know,get the permission.
Emma Rainville (24:56):
You're responsible for your own life.
Jay Johnson (25:09):
You're responsible for your own life.
You're responsible for your ownlife.
If someone's paying you and youdon't feel fulfilled, go make
yourself fulfilled.
That's your responsibility,nobody else's cases.
L&d doesn't end up having, orHR doesn't end up having, a
voice at the big executive table, so we don't get to make those
decisions, we don't get to pushthose decisions or anything else
.
Then we're somewhere in betweenthat executive table and the
(25:31):
frontline employees having toboth serve the employees and
serve the organization.
But without some of thisknowledge at that top executive
level it is.
It becomes a guessing game, itbecomes okay, you want to say-.
Emma Rainville (25:44):
I mean, you can implement this into anything.
Jay Johnson (25:46):
Yeah.
Emma Rainville (25:47):
You can implement this into anything.
Everybody has a job that theyhave to do every day.
If you're responsible for amarketing department, make your
goals and your initiative,reviewing all the SOPs and
figuring out where you caneliminate, elevate, automate,
kill and delegate.
So there's something thateveryone can do here.
Jay Johnson (26:09):
Well, and I really like the absolute focus because
I think once a L&D team or an HRteam can establish even their
internalized what is ourabsolute focus?
Because a lot of the fires thatyou're talking about is extra
work that's handed down ad hocbecause we just happen to be
there.
Emma Rainville (26:29):
I call it throwing wrenches that are
actually shiny objects.
Jay Johnson (26:32):
Yeah, and sometimes that work can be rewarding, but
other times it detracts us fromthe rewarding work that we were
doing in the first place.
So being able to say hey is myfocus on engaging and empowering
our employees, or is it reallyon doing X, y and Z that you've
just asked me to, and evenchallenging?
That is, I think, part of thatprocess of being able to be a
(26:54):
strategic partner rather than anorder taker than an order taker
.
So, emma, from your experienceand let me put you into the
context of you are theoperations officer.
You're this fractional COO fora company and we're just going
to say maybe a small tomedium-sized company, maybe 50
(27:15):
to 150 employees, but they bringyou in as the fractional COO
and you're having to work withthe HR team on, you know, making
sure that the processes andsystems are in place and under
HR is usually talent development.
What are some of the ways thatyou would engage those teams as
(27:37):
a leader and what would youexpect from those teams as a COO
?
Emma Rainville (27:44):
That's a really hard question, mainly because I
think that, if you notice, therewas a P in scope and that's
people development.
It's so important to developyour people.
Often, business owners reallydo forget that, and so your team
that has tribal knowledge.
If they elevate and grow withthe business, the business will
(28:07):
grow faster than having toreplace them.
And so you really want to.
You really really want todevelop your people.
But back to your question.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
No one is met in the middle andyou created great change or
great influence.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
No one is met in the middle andyou created great change or
great influence.
You have to meet people wherethey're at and then help them,
walk them to where you want themto be, and they have to be
(28:29):
willing, right?
So the first thing I like to dois assess the team.
That's the very first thing Ineed to do, because I'm going to
do something different withalmost every team.
Are they super motivated?
Is the morale good?
Is it not so good?
Like, where do I start here tomake them a trust me, to build
rapport and then to make themraving fans of their own
(28:49):
products, because that's soimportant?
Jay Johnson (28:52):
That trust makes a lot of sense because I can
imagine some scenarios where,hey, we're bringing in a
fractional COO.
Emma Rainville (28:59):
Everyone's getting fired.
That's what everybody thinks ohmy.
God, Everybody immediately,everybody immediately thinks
they're getting fired.
And so the next thing I reallyI am a big, big, big advocate of
team building.
Companies that don't spend timeand money on team building are
costing themselves a ton ofmoney, actually.
So I always like to start withfive dysfunctions of a team with
(29:23):
any work Yep, absolutely.
Jay Johnson (29:26):
So, hey, I'm pausing audience.
Listen to that Cut that cutthat sentence out that Emma just
said play it for yourleadership and get the funding
you need for team building.
Because it's absolutely true Ifyour team's not connected,
you're going to have a toxicculture.
If they're not working together, they're going to be working
(29:47):
against each other.
There is no middle ground there.
Emma Rainville (29:50):
There's no way around that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Jay Johnson (29:53):
I didn't mean to interrupt.
No, that's okay, it's soimportant.
And it's one of those thingswhere I think it sometimes gets
turned to oh, team building,that's a luxury, We'll do that
if we have time, energy, effort,budget, resources, and it's
like no, actually just like arelationship that you are in.
You can't just give itattention here and there and
(30:15):
assume that everything's goingto be okay.
You've got to be investing intothat relationship and that is
organizational-wide.
You've got to be investing intothat relationship and that is
organizational wide.
So I'm so glad you brought thatup, Thank you.
Emma Rainville (30:24):
No, thank you.
And team building doesn't haveto be expensive.
It also doesn't have to be timeconsuming.
One of the first things I didwhen I didn't have any money was
starting out my company and Irealized like we were going a
little bit faster than I hadspent on the team.
Except, team building hasalways been a big aspect of my
career prior to having my ownbusiness.
(30:46):
I simply bought the book andsent it to everybody, and then
everybody read it and came andtalked about it for an hour.
Jay Johnson (30:52):
Yeah.
Emma Rainville (30:53):
Obviously that morphed over time and we got
together and we did more thingsand we spent more time on
exercises and stuff like that.
But I mean, it doesn't have tobe time consuming and it doesn't
have to be expensive, but it isabsolutely necessary because if
your team can trust each otherand your team can be vulnerable
with each other and your team isokay of letting go of ego and
(31:14):
everybody wants the best foreverybody else, it's huge.
It's huge because we wintogether, but guess what?
We lose together.
If one person wins and fivepeople on the team lose,
everybody lost.
Jay Johnson (31:25):
Yep.
Emma Rainville (31:26):
If two people on the team win and three people
lost.
But they all worked reallyreally hard together, everybody
won.
Jay Johnson (31:34):
Yep, and that's the thing too is we're more willing
to do and put in extra effortfor people that we like and
people that we're connected to,and people that we can rely on
as much as they rely on us, andwe're willing to call them out.
Emma Rainville (31:50):
I don't have a problem calling anyone out.
I cannot have ever met you,ever.
I can get in a boardroom.
I'm a different animal, thoughMost people won't say Jay, I
hear your idea, but I think thatit's going to be bad for the
business because if they don'tknow you and they don't trust
that you're going to be able tohear them and not hate them for
(32:10):
it Like, how many times do youthink a day that people hear
things that they should speak upabout but don't because they
don't want to hurt someone'sfeelings?
Jay Johnson (32:18):
A lot feelings, a lot I generally am of the same
cut and kind of lean into BreneBrown on that of clear is kind,
clear is unkind.
And if I'm not telling you thatyou have a booger on your nose,
no matter how awkward thatconversation is, you're going to
hate me for it later,eventually more people are going
to see it.
That's right.
That's right.
(32:39):
So, yeah, continue on thatpathway, though, because I think
that this is the relationshipbetween that executive function
and L and D or talentdevelopment, that relationship.
So we've got team building,we've gotten getting to know the
team, getting to understandthem, but that relationship is
so essential and I think thatyou know, whether it started by
(33:01):
the COO or whether it started bythe CFO or the operations team
or anybody else or the L&D team,somebody's got to start it.
So what else would yourecommend in sort of bridging
that relationship gap between,we're going to say, I don't want
to call it middle management,but you know.
Emma Rainville (33:20):
Let's call it middle management.
It's often middle management,it know let's call it middle
management.
It's often middle management,yeah it's very, very often
middle management, and socompanies freak out about
meetings um and I've heard someof what's supposed to be the
greatest leaders of our time saythat meetings are wasteful and
useless.
I think meetings are highly,highly important.
(33:43):
I think connecting with eachother and as a middle manager,
you can take everyone thatyou're managing.
There's no reason you can't getthem even on a 30 minute powwow
and just say, hey, I'm here tohold space for you.
What are you working on?
What are you frustrated about?
That's all I want to hear abouttoday.
How can I, how can I, resolvesome of that?
(34:03):
How good does that feel whenyou're an entry-level person or
a low-level person working yourass off?
Jay Johnson (34:11):
Yep, 20 years ago, 10, maybe even 10 years ago, I
would have been an anti-meetingperson Like this is a waste of
my time.
Why am I doing this and so onand so forth, and I would say
that it was by learning likestructured meeting protocols
(34:31):
like Robert's rules, an agendaand making a start time in an
end time and I make it has to bean end time.
Yeah, and to your point, all ofmy meetings have built into it
time for connection.
But that's actually like hey,we're going to spend 15 minutes
talking about this current eventor we're going to spend 15
(34:52):
minutes learning about what justhappened on blanks vacation,
but it's structured.
So then there's an expectation,kind of what you were saying
earlier.
There's an expectation, there'sguard rails and the meetings
finish on time and they moveforward appropriately.
So I think when people dolament meetings and correct me
if I'm wrong or challenge me, ifyou usually when they lament
(35:15):
meetings it's because they'renot running their meetings in a
structured or efficient manner.
Emma Rainville (35:19):
Would you agree with that?
100 hundred percent?
I agree with that.
That's exactly right.
And you have to have a purpose.
Yeah, and I will say thisthough the one time that there
is no reason for a purpose andyou really do need to have this.
It does have a purpose, but notreally really is.
If you're in a situation whereyou're a leader, not a manager a
(35:43):
leader and you're mentoringyour people, you probably need
to, at least once a quarter,have a no agenda 60 minute with
them.
Check in you just check in andyou let the conversation go
wherever they want to take it.
Jay Johnson (36:01):
Yep, I start those.
Emma Rainville (36:04):
Those are the only ones, though.
Those are the only ones, thoughEven me and my husband, he'll
be like do you want to talk atsix?
And I'll be like can you sendme an agenda?
What will we be speaking about?
What do I need to have prepared?
Jay Johnson (36:13):
Yeah, I do those with my team and I have one
question that I kick it off withso what's on your mind?
And then we go from there andthat's it, and it starts with
whatever's on their mind.
Well, you know, I've beenthinking a lot about X lately
Tell me more about that and justreally digging in and the
conversation blossoms and ofcourse we get to the 60 minute
mark and they've talked for 45minutes of it and they're
(36:37):
excited to keep going on it.
So you can have a reallypowerful meeting with no agenda,
if the agenda is to just let'sget people talking, connecting
and exploring different ideas orinnovating or whatever that
might be.
Emma Rainville (36:50):
That should be.
That should be when you'rementoring someone right.
Shouldn't be the averagemeeting that you have with every
single staff member ever.
So yeah, I agree completely.
Jay Johnson (37:00):
So these are some great operational aspects.
If I was to ask you you know,and I know one of the things, I
know you've worked withentrepreneurs and I know you've
worked with organizations If youhad one big piece of advice,
one thing to maybe even justthink about to get started and I
know we've talked about a lotof really great tools here.
(37:21):
We've talked about having aproject management plan, We've
talked about the scope, we'vetalked about wave it, but we all
got to start somewhere andsometimes, when we got all of
the things, then none of themget done.
If you were to guide me and saythis is the first things, first
and the most important thing,that if you do this you're going
to have exponential returns,what would that one thing be,
(37:42):
emma?
Emma Rainville (37:43):
You're going to hate this because I've already
said it, but it's thefoundational framework.
It's the foundation.
It's really, just before you doanything else, before you spend
any money, before you start anLLC, before you do anything else
, understand what you want to doand who you want to serve and
who you want to have by yourside to serve those people.
Jay Johnson (38:03):
I don't hate you and neither does the audience,
because I'll tell you thatconsistency and being able to
say this really is not onlyimportant, but it's essential,
and it is the first things firstthat you should be doing, in
addition to it being a reallyvaluable tool for setting
expectations, guidelines,guardrails and, essentially,
where do you plan to be.
If we don't have that plan ofwhere we're going, well, then
(38:27):
all the work that we're doing isjust kind of questionably, are
we getting to what we actuallywant?
So I don't hate you for it, Iactually admire you for it in
really kind of focusing on thatpurpose.
Emma, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you about
operations, or about yourbest-selling book, scope, or the
Wave, or any of these types ofthings, how would they connect
(38:47):
with you?
Emma Rainville (38:48):
Sure.
So I think the best way to dothat would be
specialopspodcastcom.
We have a visionary vault there.
My book is on there, but I havesomething called the Visionary
Vault.
It's my members area.
You want to see how to run amembers area?
Go there, sign up.
It's free.
I never, ever, try to sellanyone anything on it, ever.
It's every course, every stage.
(39:10):
I've ever spoke on, everywebinar I've ever done, every
seminar I've ever done, everyworkshop I've ever done.
Everything I've ever created isin there for free.
Uh, operationally, I believethat goodwill brings, brings
goodwill.
So I have that for people.
You can go sign up for it andjust consume all of it and it's
all yours.
Jay Johnson (39:30):
Love it and that was special ops podcastcom and
we'll make sure that's in theshow notes so people can get in
touch with that members area.
Pretty cool, emma, thank you.
You know, talking aboutoperations is not always
something that L&D or HR does.
You know, we really try tofocus just on the people, which
is obviously a part of it.
(39:51):
Right, people development ispart of the scope.
But getting to that first thingsfirst, and maybe having that
vision and understanding, wheredo we really want to take these
people?
What are our absolute focus?
What are the values that we'rebringing into the space that we
share with our audience?
How are we going to execute andreally thinking about it in
that project sort of focus Ithink is really powerful and
(40:14):
it's something that L&D or HRmay not necessarily do.
So I think that the tips thatyou gave and the ideas that you
gave really solid and definitelygoing to help the audience in
crafting.
I've even got some ideas formyself of like hey, maybe I had
to revisit some of these things.
So I want to say thank you forjoining us here today on the
show.
Yeah, and thank you, audience,for tuning into this episode of
(40:36):
the Talent Forge, where we aretogether shaping the future of
training and development.
Welcome to this episode of the Talent Forge,
where we are shaping the futureof training and development.
Today we have a special guestwho is known as the Wizard of
Ops, emma Rainville.
Welcome to the show, emma.
Thank you so much for having me, jay.
Yeah, emma, I'm really excitedabout this conversation because
I think it is something that intalent development and learning
(00:23):
development, we often see kindof a failure to really think
about long-term operations orhow to structure our operations.
But before we do that, let'sget you acclimated to the
audience.
Tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
this space.
Emma Rainville (00:38):
Sure.
So I am a fractional COO.
I work with multiple people indirect response coaching
mastermind spaces.
I stumbled upon it on accident.
I was a COO of a large servicecompany, an HVAC company, the
largest HVAC company in Texasand life happened and I needed a
(01:02):
remote job.
So I started doing SOPs fordirect response marketers.
Then I became the COO of acompany, then I grew that
company, then I grew it somemore, Then I started a
fractional COO service, then Istarted a customer service
agency, then I started a mediaagency and it just kind of
exploded from there.
Life just did it for me.
(01:22):
But, um, I found that I have atrue passion for operations and
I have a true passion to helpvisionary leaders who are trying
to impact the world in apositive way.
I really enjoy helping themmake money doing it, um, and
helping them help as many peopleand touch as many lives as we
(01:43):
can, because I have no abilityto do that, so I have to somehow
I love it, you know.
Jay Johnson (01:50):
so I do want to dig into that COO experience
because, from a talentdevelopment perspective,
oftentimes you know it's theoperations officer that's really
got their finger on the pulseof the entirety of the business.
And when something is broughtdown to L&D or to the talent
development space, oftentimesthey're told we need a training
(02:10):
on blank and the COO or theexecutive team.
They may have a bigger vision,but that doesn't mean that
that's always translated.
So if we're in talentdevelopment and the COO or the
CEO or whomever brings that sortof directive down, how might we
be able to get more information?
Or how might we be able toestablish a conversation to
(02:32):
better understand, okay, what'sthe real need here and how do we
operate forward to make surethat we're hitting the business
objectives?
Can you comment on that?
Emma Rainville (02:39):
Absolutely.
I'm going to bring it back alittle bit, though, jay, because
I think a lot of people in thespace don't have COOs, they
don't find it important enoughto spend money on, which
obviously I feel is a mistake.
But let's just go with that,because I think that what you'll
find is either the COO isn't atrue COO, they're more like a
(03:02):
project manager, or a productcreator named COO isn't a true
COO, they're more like a projectmanager or a product creator
named COO.
Very few people in our spaceare true and real COOs that know
how to run a COO role.
So I just want to put that outthere Now.
That makes a lot of sense.
I also believe that in the spaceof helping people, believe that
(03:26):
in the space of helping people,it isn't actually that hard to
run operations because thebusiness is so simplified.
So let's go back to yourquestion on what if there's a
new course?
What if there's a newinitiative?
What if there's a new trainingthat needs to happen, a workshop
, whatever?
I think that the easiest andbest path for anyone ever,
whether they have a CEO or not,is to start with a foundational
(03:47):
framework.
What is your vision?
Who exactly is your avatar thatyou're trying to help, what are
you trying to provide themtoday and what are you going to
provide them tomorrow?
Because that allows us tostrategically plan how we
position everything from ourmembers area that may not be
able to support future productsto our merchant area that may
not be able to support futureproducts, to our merchant
accounts that may not be able tosupport future initiatives and
(04:09):
products and coaching, and itjust really sets what we're
doing, why we're doing it andwho we're doing it with.
Jay Johnson (04:16):
Sure.
Yeah, Outlining getting that upfront seems to make a lot of
sense, right, because then weknow what our employees have to
do to provide that promise ofvalue.
Emma Rainville (04:27):
Right, and we're also using a lot of vendors a
lot of times.
So being able to say I helppeople lose weight or I help
people build businesses or Ihelp people grow their
portfolios, that's just notenough.
We need a true vision, a truemission, a true purpose, a true
cause, a true avatar and trueuniques that we can articulate
(04:48):
easily for vendors and employeesthat are on our behalf, serving
our clients.
And so that's like the firstand foremost, and I can tell you
that every single personlistening goes yep, I have that.
Go ask five people that you'veworked with over the past year
what your vision is and none ofthem will say the same thing.
I'll guarantee it.
I've worked with a lot ofclients over the years over a
(05:09):
thousand and I've never one timehad everyone be able to
articulate it that didn't gothrough my WAVE program prior to
coming on.
So we have a program calledWAVE where it's written vision,
absolute focus, values-drivenfuture and execution plan.
You come for three days and dothat.
Jay Johnson (05:27):
So some of our clients had been through that
and and they could articulate it, but outside of that, never,
ever sunny weather so well and Ilove that you bring that up,
because I do think that it is ahuge challenge across
organizations where you don'thave a solidified mission,
vision, value, set of values orthings that are kind of
determining your future decisionmaking or how you're going to
(05:50):
operate or how you're going toshow up in a time of a crisis or
those types of things, andwhile everybody has it on their
website as a marketing tool,it's not being used as an
organizational tool.
That's not it.
Emma Rainville (06:02):
And that's not it anyway.
That's never.
Anyway.
A true vision has where you'regoing to be in a year.
What are your commitments togetting done this year?
What milestones have you hit atyears three and five and what
is the big picture on year 10?
What services we're providing,what offers do we have, what
products are we selling?
What's my involvement in thebusiness?
(06:23):
Is the visionary leader orowner spokesperson, coach, ceo,
like where do I live here 10years from now?
And so a vision is far biggerthan a three line mission
statement or marketing strategyRight, and so really sitting
down and creating that generallytakes about three days, and
once you have that, though, itgives you so much insight into
(06:46):
how to make decisions for thebusiness, because you know
exactly what you're trying toaccomplish.
And then the second componentis creating an operational
framework.
So what's the framework that welive and breathe by in the
business that allows us to reachthe vision?
And the reason why that'simportant is you've said it
twice now reacting.
(07:06):
You've used the word reactingtwice, and a lot of times.
As business owners, we'rereacting.
I don't react.
I respond because I have a plan,and my plan is very strategic.
I know what I'm doing, I knowwhat my purpose is, I know what
my focus is.
I also know what things I needto be signaled to, to pay
attention to, and when thosethings are out of place.
Because I've created that plan,I don't need to wait until
(07:28):
there's a burning fire thatmesses up my entire day.
I can see that things arestarting to smoke a little bit
and I can get that under controllong before it turns into
flames.
Jay Johnson (07:38):
Yeah, and that reaction is oftentimes where L&
D feels because it's getting adirective put down.
So my friend Jess Almey talksabout this all the time, about
moving from being an order takerin L and D to being a strategic
partner.
Right now, I know what might begoing through the head of some
of the people that are on here.
(07:59):
Okay, emma, I hear you, but Idon't.
I'm not at that table.
I don't get to make thosedecisions on vision.
I don't get to make thosedecisions on what the direction
of the company is.
Basically, all I'm getting isfrom either COO, ceo or whomever
down.
This is what we need.
End of story.
(08:19):
Let's move forward.
Is there a way to approachhaving a better dialogue with
maybe some of those decisionmakers or people that are
setting up the frameworks for us?
Emma Rainville (08:31):
Yeah, I love this question as well, because
if you're responsible for theproduct you're responsible for,
or if you're responsible for theoutcome and you're not
responsible for the vision, youhave to make sure that you've
checked your boxes in order todeliver what is expected of you,
and if you don't, it's veryunlikely that you'll meet
(08:51):
expectations.
I don't know a person thatknows how to anticipate
expectations that they haven'tbeen given.
Jay Johnson (08:57):
Right.
Emma Rainville (08:58):
Including myself , after years and years and
years of working.
Jay Johnson (09:01):
I've tried, it hasn't worked.
Emma Rainville (09:04):
It absolutely doesn't work, and so, but here's
the easiest path forward tohaving a sustainable
relationship with the hierarchythat doesn't understand that you
need more direction and that'sI don't know a company that
doesn't have or wouldn't.
Upon request, get you a projectmanagement tool, okay, and you
(09:26):
build out what you believe theoffer that doesn't have or
wouldn't.
Upon request, get you a projectmanagement tool Okay, and you
build out what you believe theoffer, the product, the course,
whatever it is that they'reasking you to create Is it a
workshop, like, what are youcreating for people?
And you build that out in aproject management tool as a
project complete, in full, okay,so that it isn't just because
(09:49):
generally when you get adirective from a higher up, it's
a pretend it's a fitnesscompany.
Go, create a seven day journeyof metabolic eating that will
help burn fat, with seven minuteworkouts each day accompanying
them for weight loss and energy.
Okay, that can mean so manythings, a lot of things, and so
(10:12):
if I go and I create a completeproject on where I'm going to
start a whole checklist of, I'mgoing to hire a nutritionist,
they're going to give me recipes, I'm going to have a shopping
list, I'm going to create themeal plan.
I'm going to create theworkouts.
We're going to book a studio sowe can film the you know, film
the workouts If you have it allthere.
(10:37):
And then I say to you hey, jay,you wanted this done.
Would you mind taking fiveminutes to look it over and make
sure that I've understood yourdirection well and correct me
where I may have made a mistake?
When you take responsibilityand ownership over I don't want
to use the word failure, butover the failure to understand
the actual mission of the task,then your hierarchy is going to
(10:58):
be not only way more likely tolook at it, but also way more
forgiving when you didn't get itright because you didn't build
it yet.
Jay Johnson (11:00):
Yep Well, and that's a powerful lesson.
That also comes even fromdesign thinking.
I know we've talked aboutdesign thinking on this, of get
the prototype together and thatdoesn't have to be a final
product.
That could be a cardboardprototype for as far as that
goes, so that way we can atleast kind of test it, get an
idea Is this hitting the mark?
Is this helping us hit ourobjectives?
(11:22):
And, you know, are we on theright pathway?
So I really really like that.
The other thing that I heard yousay and I think is is really is
really powerful is puttingtogether the project plan.
So from a from a learningdevelopment background, or from
a learning development or evenHR, you know, when we're putting
(11:43):
some kind of an initiativetogether, it's almost like we
start with.
We start with putting thecontent together rather than
putting the organizationalstructure together.
So this really does encourageus to really think about, go
back to the basics, get theobjectives down, get the
resources needed down, get theresearch and timing down and all
(12:07):
of those things, before youactually start putting the
content together.
So I really really love thatproject management focus Now,
yeah, go ahead.
Nama.
Emma Rainville (12:16):
I was just gonna say.
One of my favorite parts aboutthat is I can eliminate 20% of
projects just by the first thingthey open is the budget,
Because they didn't realize theydidn't even like.
It just seems so easy.
And a visionary entrepreneur,someone who's trying to truly
help people, that understandswhat needs to happen, doesn't
(12:40):
necessarily understand what goesinto making the products that
help them, make that happen forthem, if that makes sense at all
.
And so, yeah, once you startseeing, you know production
costs and everything else.
I'm not even joking when I say20% of the time I'll be told
let's pause on this when theyrealize the resources that are
(13:00):
involved, Rather than all theexecutives and management or
ownership being upset becauseyou're halfway through a product
so they have to go through itwith it because you've already
spent half the money and theydidn't even think it was going
to cost a quarter of it.
Jay Johnson (13:16):
I love that.
So, and and it's so true,because there are a lot of these
different moving parts and someof them are absolute barriers,
and I can imagine where budgetwould be a major one.
So let's, let's shift gearshere for just a moment.
And now I know that you've beenworking with as a fractional
COO and you've been helpingorganizations set up operations,
(13:39):
but I'm going to put us intothe context of all.
Right, I am in the L&Ddepartment, or I'm a trainer
inside of that space, or hell,I'm even in the HR department.
How can I use concepts ofstrong operations to really help
myself in navigating, becauseeveryone, every HR person I've
(14:03):
talked to, every L&D person thatI've talked to, is overwhelmed,
burned out, doesn't know whichproject to start, which project
to close, how to prioritize, etc.
Could you maybe talk about whatare some best practices from
the operation side of thingsthat we could be thinking about
to incorporate into our talentdevelopment space?
Emma Rainville (14:21):
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but
it really is going through andcreating that foundational and
operational framework within anoperational framework, just so
we can be I.
I I'm going to go backwardsjust a little bit and
shamelessly self-promote.
I wrote a book called scope,which is a foundational and
operational framework.
(14:42):
It walks you through it, and soscope is setting your vision,
creating processes, operationalexcellence, people, development
and execution.
No business works without allfive of those.
No business works fluently,profitably and and um and and
within operational excellencewithout those five components.
(15:02):
So the execution plan is themost important part for what
you're talking about.
So when I have the vision, Iknow where I'm going, I know
what I'm doing and I created myinitiative for the next 10 years
and it's a picture right Likethings are going to change
drastically as the world changes.
Ai changed everything, roboticsis changing everything and
we're going to continue to growand those things will shift.
(15:24):
But my year one commitments.
I don't need to figure out whatmy priorities are three months
into my year or four months intothe year, because I already
created them.
I have an execution plan ofwhat I'm going to do this year.
I have commitments of what I'mgoing to accomplish and then
priorities are already set forme.
So, as there's always going tobe issues within businesses and
(15:46):
fires that need to be put out,but there'll be a lot less
because I planned be put out,but there'll be a lot less
because I planned and as theycome in I'll be able to look at
them and prioritize based off ofconsequence of them, existing
right, their mere existence.
But overall, new projects, newproducts, new initiatives, new
events, new whatever we're doingin our business is already
(16:07):
planned out, so I don't need tofigure out where the pieces go,
getting nothing done because I'mspending so much time trying to
figure out where the pieces gobecause I took the time to
strategically plan over here.
Does that make sense?
Jay Johnson (16:20):
Yeah.
So setting up that sort ofguardrails in the very beginning
, how would one go aboutstarting that process?
What does that look like inactual application or
implementation?
Emma Rainville (16:33):
Sure.
So we generally do like athree-day, just completely shut
off of everything.
I like to do a Friday to aSunday only because as business
owners, we really justcompletely shut everything off.
For three days in our businessusually isn't unless you've got
a massive organization.
(16:54):
Usually isn't possible.
So I like to do a friday,because a friday isn't that big
of a deal to take off to asunday and I sit down and the
first thing I do is I look at mypersonal life and my
professional life, and I look atboth, because you'll build your
business to ruin your life.
People do it all the time.
You dream big but you didn'tthink about I have two kids, or
(17:17):
I wanted to have kids, or I havea spouse that I didn't write
into the daily plans.
I'm 10x-ing my business everyyear, but I forgot that I need
to go on date nights and Iforgot that I need to go to
soccer games.
Right, so I take and I put themside by side.
What do I want for my personallife over the next 10 years and
what do I want for my businesslife?
And I look at that part really,really quickly.
(17:38):
It's like if the ghost ofChristmas future came and got me
in the middle of the night andbrought me to my bedroom window.
What would my life look like?
And then he brought me to myoffice window.
What would my business looklike?
It's that simple on 10 years,because you can't go too deep
there and I always workbackwards In order to get there
and have those things.
What do I need to have done infive years, both personally and
(18:00):
professional?
And then I do the same thingfor three years, and then my
one-year commitments are reallyeasy, because I know in three
years I got to do this.
In five years, I got to do thisIn five years.
I want to have this.
So what do I need to do thisyear to get marked off the list?
So I'm on track for my ultimategoals and where I want to be.
So that's the first thing.
So that's written vision.
The next thing is what am Iabsolutely focused on If you
(18:23):
don't have an absolute focus?
You're throwing wrenches allthe time, you're seeing shiny
objects all the time and you'renever focusing on the thing that
truly makes impact for thepeople that you want to serve.
So an absolute focus looks likeI'll make one up.
We are.
It's going to be a purpose orcause.
(18:44):
So our purpose is to helpanyone who's willing down a path
of complete mind, body andspirit health.
I don't know, that wasn't great, but you get the idea and that
would probably be somebody who'smaking products for people to
have mind, alliance, chakras,whatever Right.
(19:04):
So that's what I'm absolutelyfocused on.
So when something comes into mysphere, I'm asking myself does
that align with my absolutefocus?
So if there's a building forrent or a building for sale and
it's a great price and I canmake a bunch of money on real
estate, does that align with myfocus?
Jay Johnson (19:21):
Probably not.
Emma Rainville (19:22):
No, so I get to start a new LLC or throw it in
the trash.
I don't get to bring it intothis ecosphere.
I keep it safe from thatbecause it's not what I'm
absolutely focused on.
Then we're going to dovalues-driven future.
We spend so much timeunderstanding our customer
avatar.
How come we don't spend time onthe avatar that is our
(19:43):
employees and our vendors thatare serving our customers?
So you're going to sit down andyou're going to spend time
really understanding the valuesthat are important to you, for
the people that work for you,work with you to serve your
clientele, and that's anywherefrom four to six attributes.
So mine you have to be aproactive problem solver to work
(20:05):
with me.
If you see that a problem isgoing to happen and you do
nothing about it, you'reprobably not going to be with me
very long.
Integrity is really big for me.
It's really important to me.
People who have a we over mementality, who want to serve the
group rather than justthemselves, is important to me,
and so you'll come up with fourto six of those, and that's the
(20:26):
values that everybody who is inyour organization both vendors
and employees, and you and yourexecutive staff have to maintain
and hold value to 365 days ayear, okay.
And then, finally, is theexecution plan.
So I have my one-yearcommitments.
(20:47):
We talked about that earlier,remember?
So I've got my one-yearcommitments.
Great.
What happens when you tell abunch of people to do a bunch of
things and bring it back to youin a year?
Okay.
Jay Johnson (20:56):
Well, in a lot of cases they come back and do it
about a week before it's due.
Right If they get it done atall.
Emma Rainville (21:04):
If they get it done at all.
It's I forgot, I didn't realize, I didn't know.
So we create an execution plan.
The way that we do that iswe're going to break down the
first quarter, we're going tolook at what we need to
accomplish the first year, and Iwant to know what I need to get
done the first quarter.
And what I'm always thinkingabout is I need to get all of
these done by October, because,I promise you, things are going
to come up and things are goingto happen and resources are
(21:26):
going to be needed that wedidn't think about and it's
going to get pushed back.
So if I have it set to be donein October, I'm definitely going
to get it done by the end ofthe year, right?
So what do I need to get donein Q1 by March 31st 2025, what
do I need to have accomplishedof my quarter one goals?
And if I'm coming out with newproducts, maybe it's the
research and development.
(21:46):
If I need to build a newmembers area, because I really
want an interactive members areathat's proprietary to me and
I'm having built, maybe it's youknow, hire the developers and
create the development plan.
So I'm going to have all my Q1goals.
But now what?
What happens when you go andyou hand people things and three
months later come back they'renot done.
(22:08):
So we set up, depending on thecompany, weekly or bi-weekly
what I call breakers.
It's a break from working inthe business to working on the
business, and all of your keyplayers that are responsible for
those quarterly goals.
They're going to sit with youand they're going to go over
each one of their goals wherethey're at, what they
accomplished this week, whatresources they need, where
(22:30):
they're struggling, what they'reworried about Is it on track?
Is it off track?
What's going on?
You're going to know everythingabout it every week or every
other week.
The odds of them not completingthat task when you do that
every week or every other weekare slim to none, as long as
you've given them the resourcesthey need.
Jay Johnson (22:46):
Sure, it sounds like I mean this is that
principle of execution, theconcept of being able to see,
being able to track, being ableto look, is no different than,
you know, taking a trip andbeing like how far have I gotten
this day of driving, how farhave I gotten this day of
driving?
It's not like you're just goingto one day, you're going to
drive for six days and then allof a sudden be like where am I,
(23:09):
you know?
So that makes a lot of sense.
Now, again from the learningand development perspective.
Without being the CEO, withoutbeing the person responsible for
, per se, growing the business,or 10 timings the business, can,
an individual in anorganization, or maybe the
leader of the L&D team, theleader of HR, could they do this
(23:32):
process or think about thisprocess from their own position?
Even if it's not the fullcompany perspective, it seems
like you could probably adaptthis at the divisional level as
well.
Would that be fair, or is thatsomething?
Emma Rainville (23:46):
I have customer service agents that go through
this and customer service agentsokay this and create this so
frontline actual like, if you're, if your executive team is not
providing it for you and they'repaying you, why wouldn't you?
Jay Johnson (24:05):
Solve the problem.
Emma Rainville (24:06):
Solve the problem.
And when you can display trueleadership, what happens to your
career anyway?
Jay Johnson (24:12):
Generally it accelerates.
Emma Rainville (24:13):
I hear all the time oh, that's not my job.
Well, that's probably whyyou'll always have a job.
Jay Johnson (24:19):
Or not have a job soon.
Emma Rainville (24:21):
Right, right, right.
You have an opportunity to takecontrol and be a leader, and so
why not?
And if you're not going in theright direction, you just make
sure that the person youdirectly report to can see like
hey, I don't have anyinitiatives, I'm just, you know,
kind of working every day.
It seems like you know weshould have some initiatives.
Here's what I created formyself.
(24:42):
Would you give me feedback onthat?
And if they don't like that, gowork somewhere else.
Jay Johnson (24:47):
Sure, Well, and I like that because that's
essentially if the guardrailsaren't being put out for you,
set your own and then you know,get the permission.
Emma Rainville (24:56):
You're responsible for your own life.
Jay Johnson (25:09):
You're responsible for your own life.
You're responsible for your ownlife.
If someone's paying you and youdon't feel fulfilled, go make
yourself fulfilled.
That's your responsibility,nobody else's cases.
L&d doesn't end up having, orHR doesn't end up having, a
voice at the big executive table, so we don't get to make those
decisions, we don't get to pushthose decisions or anything else
.
Then we're somewhere in betweenthat executive table and the
(25:31):
frontline employees having toboth serve the employees and
serve the organization.
But without some of thisknowledge at that top executive
level it is.
It becomes a guessing game, itbecomes okay, you want to say-.
Emma Rainville (25:44):
I mean, you can implement this into anything.
Jay Johnson (25:46):
Yeah.
Emma Rainville (25:47):
You can implement this into anything.
Everybody has a job that theyhave to do every day.
If you're responsible for amarketing department, make your
goals and your initiative,reviewing all the SOPs and
figuring out where you caneliminate, elevate, automate,
kill and delegate.
So there's something thateveryone can do here.
Jay Johnson (26:09):
Well, and I really like the absolute focus because
I think once a L&D team or an HRteam can establish even their
internalized what is ourabsolute focus?
Because a lot of the fires thatyou're talking about is extra
work that's handed down ad hocbecause we just happen to be
there.
Emma Rainville (26:29):
I call it throwing wrenches that are
actually shiny objects.
Jay Johnson (26:32):
Yeah, and sometimes that work can be rewarding, but
other times it detracts us fromthe rewarding work that we were
doing in the first place.
So being able to say hey is myfocus on engaging and empowering
our employees, or is it reallyon doing X, y and Z that you've
just asked me to, and evenchallenging?
That is, I think, part of thatprocess of being able to be a
(26:54):
strategic partner rather than anorder taker than an order taker
.
So, emma, from your experienceand let me put you into the
context of you are theoperations officer.
You're this fractional COO fora company and we're just going
to say maybe a small tomedium-sized company, maybe 50
(27:15):
to 150 employees, but they bringyou in as the fractional COO
and you're having to work withthe HR team on, you know, making
sure that the processes andsystems are in place and under
HR is usually talent development.
What are some of the ways thatyou would engage those teams as
(27:37):
a leader and what would youexpect from those teams as a COO
?
Emma Rainville (27:44):
That's a really hard question, mainly because I
think that, if you notice, therewas a P in scope and that's
people development.
It's so important to developyour people.
Often, business owners reallydo forget that, and so your team
that has tribal knowledge.
If they elevate and grow withthe business, the business will
(28:07):
grow faster than having toreplace them.
And so you really want to.
You really really want todevelop your people.
But back to your question.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
No one is met in the middle andyou created great change or
great influence.
You have to meet people wherethey're at.
No one is met in the middle andyou created great change or
great influence.
You have to meet people wherethey're at and then help them,
walk them to where you want themto be, and they have to be
(28:29):
willing, right?
So the first thing I like to dois assess the team.
That's the very first thing Ineed to do, because I'm going to
do something different withalmost every team.
Are they super motivated?
Is the morale good?
Is it not so good?
Like, where do I start here tomake them a trust me, to build
rapport and then to make themraving fans of their own
(28:49):
products, because that's soimportant?
Jay Johnson (28:52):
That trust makes a lot of sense because I can
imagine some scenarios where,hey, we're bringing in a
fractional COO.
Emma Rainville (28:59):
Everyone's getting fired.
That's what everybody thinks ohmy.
God, Everybody immediately,everybody immediately thinks
they're getting fired.
And so the next thing I reallyI am a big, big, big advocate of
team building.
Companies that don't spend timeand money on team building are
costing themselves a ton ofmoney, actually.
So I always like to start withfive dysfunctions of a team with
(29:23):
any work Yep, absolutely.
Jay Johnson (29:26):
So, hey, I'm pausing audience.
Listen to that Cut that cutthat sentence out that Emma just
said play it for yourleadership and get the funding
you need for team building.
Because it's absolutely true Ifyour team's not connected,
you're going to have a toxicculture.
If they're not working together, they're going to be working
(29:47):
against each other.
There is no middle ground there.
Emma Rainville (29:50):
There's no way around that.
Yeah, absolutely.
Jay Johnson (29:53):
I didn't mean to interrupt.
No, that's okay, it's soimportant.
And it's one of those thingswhere I think it sometimes gets
turned to oh, team building,that's a luxury, We'll do that
if we have time, energy, effort,budget, resources, and it's
like no, actually just like arelationship that you are in.
You can't just give itattention here and there and
(30:15):
assume that everything's goingto be okay.
You've got to be investing intothat relationship and that is
organizational-wide.
You've got to be investing intothat relationship and that is
organizational wide.
So I'm so glad you brought thatup, Thank you.
Emma Rainville (30:24):
No, thank you.
And team building doesn't haveto be expensive.
It also doesn't have to be timeconsuming.
One of the first things I didwhen I didn't have any money was
starting out my company and Irealized like we were going a
little bit faster than I hadspent on the team.
Except, team building hasalways been a big aspect of my
career prior to having my ownbusiness.
(30:46):
I simply bought the book andsent it to everybody, and then
everybody read it and came andtalked about it for an hour.
Jay Johnson (30:52):
Yeah.
Emma Rainville (30:53):
Obviously that morphed over time and we got
together and we did more thingsand we spent more time on
exercises and stuff like that.
But I mean, it doesn't have tobe time consuming and it doesn't
have to be expensive, but it isabsolutely necessary because if
your team can trust each otherand your team can be vulnerable
with each other and your team isokay of letting go of ego and
(31:14):
everybody wants the best foreverybody else, it's huge.
It's huge because we wintogether, but guess what?
We lose together.
If one person wins and fivepeople on the team lose,
everybody lost.
Jay Johnson (31:25):
Yep.
Emma Rainville (31:26):
If two people on the team win and three people
lost.
But they all worked reallyreally hard together, everybody
won.
Jay Johnson (31:34):
Yep, and that's the thing too is we're more willing
to do and put in extra effortfor people that we like and
people that we're connected to,and people that we can rely on
as much as they rely on us, andwe're willing to call them out.
Emma Rainville (31:50):
I don't have a problem calling anyone out.
I cannot have ever met you,ever.
I can get in a boardroom.
I'm a different animal, thoughMost people won't say Jay, I
hear your idea, but I think thatit's going to be bad for the
business because if they don'tknow you and they don't trust
that you're going to be able tohear them and not hate them for
(32:10):
it Like, how many times do youthink a day that people hear
things that they should speak upabout but don't because they
don't want to hurt someone'sfeelings?
Jay Johnson (32:18):
A lot feelings, a lot I generally am of the same
cut and kind of lean into BreneBrown on that of clear is kind,
clear is unkind.
And if I'm not telling you thatyou have a booger on your nose,
no matter how awkward thatconversation is, you're going to
hate me for it later,eventually more people are going
to see it.
That's right.
That's right.
(32:39):
So, yeah, continue on thatpathway, though, because I think
that this is the relationshipbetween that executive function
and L and D or talentdevelopment, that relationship.
So we've got team building,we've gotten getting to know the
team, getting to understandthem, but that relationship is
so essential and I think thatyou know, whether it started by
(33:01):
the COO or whether it started bythe CFO or the operations team
or anybody else or the L&D team,somebody's got to start it.
So what else would yourecommend in sort of bridging
that relationship gap between,we're going to say, I don't want
to call it middle management,but you know.
Emma Rainville (33:20):
Let's call it middle management.
It's often middle management,it know let's call it middle
management.
It's often middle management,yeah it's very, very often
middle management, and socompanies freak out about
meetings um and I've heard someof what's supposed to be the
greatest leaders of our time saythat meetings are wasteful and
useless.
I think meetings are highly,highly important.
(33:43):
I think connecting with eachother and as a middle manager,
you can take everyone thatyou're managing.
There's no reason you can't getthem even on a 30 minute powwow
and just say, hey, I'm here tohold space for you.
What are you working on?
What are you frustrated about?
That's all I want to hear abouttoday.
How can I, how can I, resolvesome of that?
(34:03):
How good does that feel whenyou're an entry-level person or
a low-level person working yourass off?
Jay Johnson (34:11):
Yep, 20 years ago, 10, maybe even 10 years ago, I
would have been an anti-meetingperson Like this is a waste of
my time.
Why am I doing this and so onand so forth, and I would say
that it was by learning likestructured meeting protocols
(34:31):
like Robert's rules, an agendaand making a start time in an
end time and I make it has to bean end time.
Yeah, and to your point, all ofmy meetings have built into it
time for connection.
But that's actually like hey,we're going to spend 15 minutes
talking about this current eventor we're going to spend 15
(34:52):
minutes learning about what justhappened on blanks vacation,
but it's structured.
So then there's an expectation,kind of what you were saying
earlier.
There's an expectation, there'sguard rails and the meetings
finish on time and they moveforward appropriately.
So I think when people dolament meetings and correct me
if I'm wrong or challenge me, ifyou usually when they lament
(35:15):
meetings it's because they'renot running their meetings in a
structured or efficient manner.
Emma Rainville (35:19):
Would you agree with that?
100 hundred percent?
I agree with that.
That's exactly right.
And you have to have a purpose.
Yeah, and I will say thisthough the one time that there
is no reason for a purpose andyou really do need to have this.
It does have a purpose, but notreally really is.
If you're in a situation whereyou're a leader, not a manager a
(35:43):
leader and you're mentoringyour people, you probably need
to, at least once a quarter,have a no agenda 60 minute with
them.
Check in you just check in andyou let the conversation go
wherever they want to take it.
Jay Johnson (36:01):
Yep, I start those.
Emma Rainville (36:04):
Those are the only ones, though.
Those are the only ones, thoughEven me and my husband, he'll
be like do you want to talk atsix?
And I'll be like can you sendme an agenda?
What will we be speaking about?
What do I need to have prepared?
Jay Johnson (36:13):
Yeah, I do those with my team and I have one
question that I kick it off withso what's on your mind?
And then we go from there andthat's it, and it starts with
whatever's on their mind.
Well, you know, I've beenthinking a lot about X lately
Tell me more about that and justreally digging in and the
conversation blossoms and ofcourse we get to the 60 minute
mark and they've talked for 45minutes of it and they're
(36:37):
excited to keep going on it.
So you can have a reallypowerful meeting with no agenda,
if the agenda is to just let'sget people talking, connecting
and exploring different ideas orinnovating or whatever that
might be.
Emma Rainville (36:50):
That should be.
That should be when you'rementoring someone right.
Shouldn't be the averagemeeting that you have with every
single staff member ever.
So yeah, I agree completely.
Jay Johnson (37:00):
So these are some great operational aspects.
If I was to ask you you know,and I know one of the things, I
know you've worked withentrepreneurs and I know you've
worked with organizations If youhad one big piece of advice,
one thing to maybe even justthink about to get started and I
know we've talked about a lotof really great tools here.
(37:21):
We've talked about having aproject management plan, We've
talked about the scope, we'vetalked about wave it, but we all
got to start somewhere andsometimes, when we got all of
the things, then none of themget done.
If you were to guide me and saythis is the first things, first
and the most important thing,that if you do this you're going
to have exponential returns,what would that one thing be,
(37:42):
emma?
Emma Rainville (37:43):
You're going to hate this because I've already
said it, but it's thefoundational framework.
It's the foundation.
It's really, just before you doanything else, before you spend
any money, before you start anLLC, before you do anything else
, understand what you want to doand who you want to serve and
who you want to have by yourside to serve those people.
Jay Johnson (38:03):
I don't hate you and neither does the audience,
because I'll tell you thatconsistency and being able to
say this really is not onlyimportant, but it's essential,
and it is the first things firstthat you should be doing, in
addition to it being a reallyvaluable tool for setting
expectations, guidelines,guardrails and, essentially,
where do you plan to be.
If we don't have that plan ofwhere we're going, well, then
(38:27):
all the work that we're doing isjust kind of questionably, are
we getting to what we actuallywant?
So I don't hate you for it, Iactually admire you for it in
really kind of focusing on thatpurpose.
Emma, if our audience wanted toget in touch with you about
operations, or about yourbest-selling book, scope, or the
Wave, or any of these types ofthings, how would they connect
(38:47):
with you?
Emma Rainville (38:48):
Sure.
So I think the best way to dothat would be
specialopspodcastcom.
We have a visionary vault there.
My book is on there, but I havesomething called the Visionary
Vault.
It's my members area.
You want to see how to run amembers area?
Go there, sign up.
It's free.
I never, ever, try to sellanyone anything on it, ever.
It's every course, every stage.
(39:10):
I've ever spoke on, everywebinar I've ever done, every
seminar I've ever done, everyworkshop I've ever done.
Everything I've ever created isin there for free.
Uh, operationally, I believethat goodwill brings, brings
goodwill.
So I have that for people.
You can go sign up for it andjust consume all of it and it's
all yours.
Jay Johnson (39:30):
Love it and that was special ops podcastcom and
we'll make sure that's in theshow notes so people can get in
touch with that members area.
Pretty cool, emma, thank you.
You know, talking aboutoperations is not always
something that L&D or HR does.
You know, we really try tofocus just on the people, which
is obviously a part of it.
(39:51):
Right, people development ispart of the scope.
But getting to that first thingsfirst, and maybe having that
vision and understanding, wheredo we really want to take these
people?
What are our absolute focus?
What are the values that we'rebringing into the space that we
share with our audience?
How are we going to execute andreally thinking about it in
that project sort of focus Ithink is really powerful and
(40:14):
it's something that L&D or HRmay not necessarily do.
So I think that the tips thatyou gave and the ideas that you
gave really solid and definitelygoing to help the audience in
crafting.
I've even got some ideas formyself of like hey, maybe I had
to revisit some of these things.
So I want to say thank you forjoining us here today on the
show.
Yeah, and thank you, audience,for tuning into this episode of
(40:36):
the Talent Forge, where we aretogether shaping the future of
training and development.
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