April 3, 2025 • 11 mins
ThinkingAhead Recruiting Partner and Legal Practice Manager Brian Vogt dives into the psychology of recruiting, leads Stephanie in a couple of roleplays, considers what it might be like talking to your future boss, and explains how quicker failure leads to quicker success.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stephanie Maas (00:00):
Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade.
(00:03):
This is your host, StephanieMaas, Partner with ThinkingAhead
Executive Search, and today, Iam super excited to have
probably one of the all timegreats with us from
ThinkingAhead, Brian Vogt. Brianwas once again, our top
producer. Couple things I thinkeveryone should know about
(00:26):
Brian, and help you, hopefullyget excited to hear what he
wants to share with us today.Brian does this job the good old
fashioned way. He's incrediblywell planned. He's very process
oriented. He's a phone guy,which is, I think, a little bit
of a novelty in his niche. He'sdiligent and consistent in his
(00:47):
work effort. It's no wonder he'sbeen our top producer for
several years. The second thingI think you should know is Brian
is uniquely humble in hissuccess and how he does what he
does. However, he has an alterego named Brian that is not so
humble. So often we have to callon Brian to brag on Brian. Not
(01:10):
sure who we're going to gettoday, Brian, super excited to
have you here, and not surewhich Brian we're getting, but
whoever is here, we're happy tohave you.
Brian Vogt (01:20):
Thank you, Stephanie, appreciate that there
was a couple things that Ithought was important to chat
about. One of the big thingswhat I've learned about this
over the years is a lot of thepsychology associated with what
we do, and one of the thingsthat's always dumbfounded me has
been trying to get to knowwhat's really in the head of our
(01:42):
candidates. What are they reallythinking? It always seems to me
like I never quite know what thereal reason why they're open to
making a change until we getlate in the process. And so one
of the things I've I've done isreally changed how I ask
questions to candidates andlearning to ask indirect
questions to them. Probably mostrecruiters do a good job of
(02:06):
during debrief calls or evenprep calls, of asking
candidates. So tell me who youturn to when you make these
kinds of big decisions, whetherit's a significant other,
whether it's a parent a friend,what I've learned to do over the
years is ask, instead ofdirectly asking them what they
think of these things, it'sasking them. So tell me that
(02:28):
important person in your lifethat helps you make these
decisions. What do they think ofthis opportunity? What are the
things that they're saying? SoStephanie, I'm going to I'm
going to ask you a question. IfI were to ask you, tell me how I
was going to actually ask, Howwould I describe you? But I
don't want to do that to you. Ithink that would be kind of
(02:52):
rough. But if I were to ask yourchildren, how would they
describe you as a mother, whatdo you think they would say?
Stephanie Maas (03:00):
Depending on the day, I think they would say I
was very silly. My silliness isprobably a little bit annoying,
but I wear that like a badge ofhonor, because honestly, if
you're not annoying your kids,you're doing something wrong. I
think they would say I'mincredibly loving and would do
anything for them.
Brian Vogt (03:15):
No, that's great. I think that's awesome. But what
just happened is, when I askedyou that question, you stopped
for a second and said, Okay, howwould my kids respond? And we
aren't going to put words insomeone else's mouth, so we
really have to think about, whatwould they say about this? And
so that's been one of the thingsI've learned over the years is
(03:38):
Hey, asking that indirectquestion, not directly, asking
the candidate or even a client,what do they think of this
individual? But actually asking,what is that important person in
your life? What would they sayabout this opportunity? What
would they say about thesethings? Another thing I thought
was interesting I started, and Ithis is obviously something that
(04:01):
I've heard over the years fromother people. Is a good question
to give to candidates if they'regoing through the interview
process, is saying to them, ifyou're talking to your future
boss or your future mentor, askthem this tough question. If I
were to ask other people thathave worked for you, how would
they describe you as a mentor,as a boss, and you will get
(04:24):
immediate, Frank answers to thatquestion, because people don't
want to put words in everybodyelse's mouth.
Stephanie Maas (04:32):
Let's do a role play on a debrief. I want to
know like, pretend you just sentme out on an interview, and
we're doing a debrief. I'm thecandidate, you're the recruiter.
How exactly does that sound. Andlet's pretend you know who my
important person is. Let's usesome very real information.
Brian Vogt (04:45):
Yeah, so usually, what I would ask you, Stephanie
is, tell me about the theinterview. You know, tell me
about the types of questions yougot from the interview, mainly
kind of asking you, hey, what?What did they say to you? What
kind of questions Did they askyou? And then I would. Also get
into you know, did anything popup that maybe concerns you
during the process? Any Did theysay anything, or did anything
(05:09):
kind of strike you as odd oroff, if I coached you properly,
did you ask a clarifyingquestion when something was off
and then finally, did you guysdiscuss next steps in the
process. Where do we go fromthere? Now, at this point, when
I'm starting to wrap up thecall, this is usually when I go,
Hey, by the way, did you have achance? I know you and I talked
(05:30):
about that important person toyour life, your your good
friend, whatever. Tell me, youknow, did you have a chance to
discuss the interview with them?And what was their feedback?
You'll notice, I never askedthem, What do you think? I don't
want them to tell me what theythink. I want them to tell me
what that important person oftheir life is, is providing
(05:53):
information. Because typically,what we do is we turn to those
in our lives that think the sameway we do have the same goals
and are good advisors for us. Soa lot of times, the real meat
and concerns will come forwardduring that discussion.
Stephanie Maas (06:12):
You know, it's so interesting because the other
side of that too is those arethe people that we trust. They
usually want what's best for us,and yet we can also heavily
influence their support with ourfeedback to them. So in this
scenario, the behind the scenes,which is really what I think
you're unveiling here, is, youknow, after the interview ends,
(06:33):
I'm going to call my brother andI'm going to say, Oh my gosh.
Let me tell you, I loved it. Itwas great. This and this and
this, and my brother's feedbackis going to be, well, hey, this
sounds like a great opportunityfor you. I'm really excited. And
then, therefore, he will give mehis support because of what I
shared with him. He may ask someHey, make sure you find about
(06:55):
this. Make sure you find outabout that. But wow, this sounds
really great for you. So the keyhere, and I love this, is when
you ask, Hey, what does yourspouse think? What does your
support person think? What is,you know, whatever, what you're
really asking is, what did youtell them? What therefore, is
their response? But then also,it sheds light on, if there is
(07:16):
hesitation or concern, it'll bereflected back by that person,
and then, you know, hey, thisother person that's a major
influencer, and they're at bigdecision making is not on board.
If our major influencers in ourlife are not on board with the
decision we're going to make,we're rarely going to make that decision.
Brian Vogt (07:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I always find it interesting when
suddenly they begin to mentionthings that we never discuss,
right? Well, they mentioned Ishould be paid better. Oh,
really. Well, you and I haddiscussed that pay wasn't a
major issue. So, so now, why isthis suddenly coming out, right?
You know, mentorship isimportant. Well, I'm, I'm not
(07:57):
sure if I'm getting that right?So that's always interesting,
and we unveil those concerns,but we also get to talk about
them, right? Because a lot oftimes, if you don't get these
concerns out in the open, theyfester, then they pop up later
when an offer comes out, andsuddenly you find out, well, I
don't really want to accept thisbecause of there's this
(08:21):
lingering concern that I wasn'taware of. The only other thing I
was going to bring up was theCEO of Nvidia was talking about,
he was asked the question, youknow, how do you coach people to
become more successful? And hesaid something I thought was
very profound. And he said, youknow, he goes, what we find is
(08:42):
everybody's going to makemistakes, everybody's going to
fail. People are going to, youknow, have to go through this
process of learning, and failureis part of that problem. But
what he said to people is,they've learned. We coach them
to fail faster, the faster wecan teach them to fail over and
over again, the quicker theywill suddenly realize, hey, I
(09:05):
figured this out. Now I can getto the point of being
successful. So if I could coachpeople that are new to this
industry, I would just tell you,hey, faster you fail at this,
the more mistakes you make.Don't look at it as a bad thing,
look at it as a good thing. Soyou can learn to be successful.
Stephanie Maas (09:25):
I love that, and I do want to share with our
audience this mentality at work,and that's with you, Brian. When
Brian joined our firm, you know,we kind of put the standard of,
you know, you make 50 calls aday. Well, Brian's like, well, I
don't want to be the averagefirst year producer. I'm going
to make more than 50 calls aday. You know, we set up a
(09:47):
Monday through Friday scheduleof how to plan your day to get
the most out of your day. Briansaid, Hey, that's not going to
cut it for me. My first year,I'm going to be committed to
working, you know, Sundayafternoons to get all my
sourcing and administrative workdone. And it's not about being a
workaholic or being so doggedthat you don't have a life
(10:09):
outside the job, but it's thisexact idea I want to hurry up
and learn this business isabsolutely fast as I can, which
means you're going to makemistakes along the way. But
this, the sooner you get thosehurdles and speed bumps out of
the way, the sooner the roadopens up. Sounds super novel at
the same time, because he setthat example. He also trained
(10:31):
the top first year that threeyears ago, we had a 25 year
first year production record.She came in and broke that
record. It stood for 25 years,but it was again on this
mentality of, hey, do moresooner. Do more faster. So it's
not just a Hey. It's a greatthing to think mentality. But
I'm a huge believer in you don'tlisten to what people say. You
(10:52):
watch what they do. And Brian atthe time, you weren't saying,
Hey, I'm going to fail faster,but you did, and I think there's
a lot to be said for that, sokudos for you for setting that
example for us.
Brian Vogt (11:05):
I appreciate that. Yeah, and as a matter of fact,
another person on the team thisyear came on the team just over
a year ago and became a partnerand and really just followed,
followed what I did, workharder, work faster, and get to
that point of of understandingthis and becoming more
successful. So it's definitelysomething that I will preach and
(11:25):
believe in. And I think I don'tknow if I have the perfect
method all the time, but I thinkwhat I do definitely works, and
proof has been in the pudding onthose around me on my team.
Stephanie Maas (11:35):
Absolutely. Fanastic.
Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade.
(00:03):
This is your host, StephanieMaas, Partner with ThinkingAhead
Executive Search, and today, Iam super excited to have
probably one of the all timegreats with us from
ThinkingAhead, Brian Vogt. Brianwas once again, our top
producer. Couple things I thinkeveryone should know about
(00:26):
Brian, and help you, hopefullyget excited to hear what he
wants to share with us today.Brian does this job the good old
fashioned way. He's incrediblywell planned. He's very process
oriented. He's a phone guy,which is, I think, a little bit
of a novelty in his niche. He'sdiligent and consistent in his
(00:47):
work effort. It's no wonder he'sbeen our top producer for
several years. The second thingI think you should know is Brian
is uniquely humble in hissuccess and how he does what he
does. However, he has an alterego named Brian that is not so
humble. So often we have to callon Brian to brag on Brian. Not
(01:10):
sure who we're going to gettoday, Brian, super excited to
have you here, and not surewhich Brian we're getting, but
whoever is here, we're happy tohave you.
Brian Vogt (01:20):
Thank you, Stephanie, appreciate that there
was a couple things that Ithought was important to chat
about. One of the big thingswhat I've learned about this
over the years is a lot of thepsychology associated with what
we do, and one of the thingsthat's always dumbfounded me has
been trying to get to knowwhat's really in the head of our
(01:42):
candidates. What are they reallythinking? It always seems to me
like I never quite know what thereal reason why they're open to
making a change until we getlate in the process. And so one
of the things I've I've done isreally changed how I ask
questions to candidates andlearning to ask indirect
questions to them. Probably mostrecruiters do a good job of
(02:06):
during debrief calls or evenprep calls, of asking
candidates. So tell me who youturn to when you make these
kinds of big decisions, whetherit's a significant other,
whether it's a parent a friend,what I've learned to do over the
years is ask, instead ofdirectly asking them what they
think of these things, it'sasking them. So tell me that
(02:28):
important person in your lifethat helps you make these
decisions. What do they think ofthis opportunity? What are the
things that they're saying? SoStephanie, I'm going to I'm
going to ask you a question. IfI were to ask you, tell me how I
was going to actually ask, Howwould I describe you? But I
don't want to do that to you. Ithink that would be kind of
(02:52):
rough. But if I were to ask yourchildren, how would they
describe you as a mother, whatdo you think they would say?
Stephanie Maas (03:00):
Depending on the day, I think they would say I
was very silly. My silliness isprobably a little bit annoying,
but I wear that like a badge ofhonor, because honestly, if
you're not annoying your kids,you're doing something wrong. I
think they would say I'mincredibly loving and would do
anything for them.
Brian Vogt (03:15):
No, that's great. I think that's awesome. But what
just happened is, when I askedyou that question, you stopped
for a second and said, Okay, howwould my kids respond? And we
aren't going to put words insomeone else's mouth, so we
really have to think about, whatwould they say about this? And
so that's been one of the thingsI've learned over the years is
(03:38):
Hey, asking that indirectquestion, not directly, asking
the candidate or even a client,what do they think of this
individual? But actually asking,what is that important person in
your life? What would they sayabout this opportunity? What
would they say about thesethings? Another thing I thought
was interesting I started, and Ithis is obviously something that
(04:01):
I've heard over the years fromother people. Is a good question
to give to candidates if they'regoing through the interview
process, is saying to them, ifyou're talking to your future
boss or your future mentor, askthem this tough question. If I
were to ask other people thathave worked for you, how would
they describe you as a mentor,as a boss, and you will get
(04:24):
immediate, Frank answers to thatquestion, because people don't
want to put words in everybodyelse's mouth.
Stephanie Maas (04:32):
Let's do a role play on a debrief. I want to
know like, pretend you just sentme out on an interview, and
we're doing a debrief. I'm thecandidate, you're the recruiter.
How exactly does that sound. Andlet's pretend you know who my
important person is. Let's usesome very real information.
Brian Vogt (04:45):
Yeah, so usually, what I would ask you, Stephanie
is, tell me about the theinterview. You know, tell me
about the types of questions yougot from the interview, mainly
kind of asking you, hey, what?What did they say to you? What
kind of questions Did they askyou? And then I would. Also get
into you know, did anything popup that maybe concerns you
during the process? Any Did theysay anything, or did anything
(05:09):
kind of strike you as odd oroff, if I coached you properly,
did you ask a clarifyingquestion when something was off
and then finally, did you guysdiscuss next steps in the
process. Where do we go fromthere? Now, at this point, when
I'm starting to wrap up thecall, this is usually when I go,
Hey, by the way, did you have achance? I know you and I talked
(05:30):
about that important person toyour life, your your good
friend, whatever. Tell me, youknow, did you have a chance to
discuss the interview with them?And what was their feedback?
You'll notice, I never askedthem, What do you think? I don't
want them to tell me what theythink. I want them to tell me
what that important person oftheir life is, is providing
(05:53):
information. Because typically,what we do is we turn to those
in our lives that think the sameway we do have the same goals
and are good advisors for us. Soa lot of times, the real meat
and concerns will come forwardduring that discussion.
Stephanie Maas (06:12):
You know, it's so interesting because the other
side of that too is those arethe people that we trust. They
usually want what's best for us,and yet we can also heavily
influence their support with ourfeedback to them. So in this
scenario, the behind the scenes,which is really what I think
you're unveiling here, is, youknow, after the interview ends,
(06:33):
I'm going to call my brother andI'm going to say, Oh my gosh.
Let me tell you, I loved it. Itwas great. This and this and
this, and my brother's feedbackis going to be, well, hey, this
sounds like a great opportunityfor you. I'm really excited. And
then, therefore, he will give mehis support because of what I
shared with him. He may ask someHey, make sure you find about
(06:55):
this. Make sure you find outabout that. But wow, this sounds
really great for you. So the keyhere, and I love this, is when
you ask, Hey, what does yourspouse think? What does your
support person think? What is,you know, whatever, what you're
really asking is, what did youtell them? What therefore, is
their response? But then also,it sheds light on, if there is
(07:16):
hesitation or concern, it'll bereflected back by that person,
and then, you know, hey, thisother person that's a major
influencer, and they're at bigdecision making is not on board.
If our major influencers in ourlife are not on board with the
decision we're going to make,we're rarely going to make that decision.
Brian Vogt (07:35):
Yeah, absolutely. I always find it interesting when
suddenly they begin to mentionthings that we never discuss,
right? Well, they mentioned Ishould be paid better. Oh,
really. Well, you and I haddiscussed that pay wasn't a
major issue. So, so now, why isthis suddenly coming out, right?
You know, mentorship isimportant. Well, I'm, I'm not
(07:57):
sure if I'm getting that right?So that's always interesting,
and we unveil those concerns,but we also get to talk about
them, right? Because a lot oftimes, if you don't get these
concerns out in the open, theyfester, then they pop up later
when an offer comes out, andsuddenly you find out, well, I
don't really want to accept thisbecause of there's this
(08:21):
lingering concern that I wasn'taware of. The only other thing I
was going to bring up was theCEO of Nvidia was talking about,
he was asked the question, youknow, how do you coach people to
become more successful? And hesaid something I thought was
very profound. And he said, youknow, he goes, what we find is
(08:42):
everybody's going to makemistakes, everybody's going to
fail. People are going to, youknow, have to go through this
process of learning, and failureis part of that problem. But
what he said to people is,they've learned. We coach them
to fail faster, the faster wecan teach them to fail over and
over again, the quicker theywill suddenly realize, hey, I
(09:05):
figured this out. Now I can getto the point of being
successful. So if I could coachpeople that are new to this
industry, I would just tell you,hey, faster you fail at this,
the more mistakes you make.Don't look at it as a bad thing,
look at it as a good thing. Soyou can learn to be successful.
Stephanie Maas (09:25):
I love that, and I do want to share with our
audience this mentality at work,and that's with you, Brian. When
Brian joined our firm, you know,we kind of put the standard of,
you know, you make 50 calls aday. Well, Brian's like, well, I
don't want to be the averagefirst year producer. I'm going
to make more than 50 calls aday. You know, we set up a
(09:47):
Monday through Friday scheduleof how to plan your day to get
the most out of your day. Briansaid, Hey, that's not going to
cut it for me. My first year,I'm going to be committed to
working, you know, Sundayafternoons to get all my
sourcing and administrative workdone. And it's not about being a
workaholic or being so doggedthat you don't have a life
(10:09):
outside the job, but it's thisexact idea I want to hurry up
and learn this business isabsolutely fast as I can, which
means you're going to makemistakes along the way. But
this, the sooner you get thosehurdles and speed bumps out of
the way, the sooner the roadopens up. Sounds super novel at
the same time, because he setthat example. He also trained
(10:31):
the top first year that threeyears ago, we had a 25 year
first year production record.She came in and broke that
record. It stood for 25 years,but it was again on this
mentality of, hey, do moresooner. Do more faster. So it's
not just a Hey. It's a greatthing to think mentality. But
I'm a huge believer in you don'tlisten to what people say. You
(10:52):
watch what they do. And Brian atthe time, you weren't saying,
Hey, I'm going to fail faster,but you did, and I think there's
a lot to be said for that, sokudos for you for setting that
example for us.
Brian Vogt (11:05):
I appreciate that. Yeah, and as a matter of fact,
another person on the team thisyear came on the team just over
a year ago and became a partnerand and really just followed,
followed what I did, workharder, work faster, and get to
that point of of understandingthis and becoming more
successful. So it's definitelysomething that I will preach and
(11:25):
believe in. And I think I don'tknow if I have the perfect
method all the time, but I thinkwhat I do definitely works, and
proof has been in the pudding onthose around me on my team.
Stephanie Maas (11:35):
Absolutely. Fanastic.
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