March 18, 2024 • 52 mins
I talk with Lisa B (Lisa Bernstein), author of God in Her Ruffled Dress, about George Herbert's "The Flower." We have a great chat, AND I owe Lisa because we had to re-record the first half. We talk about the sensual, the erotic, and sound, among many other things. Then Lisa reads and we talk about her poem "God #2." After that, we play an audio game titled "Excuse me while I kiss this guy, because we built this city on sausage rolls." Episode brought to you by the cereal producers of America.
Also mentioned:
- John Donne's "Holy Sonnet: Batter my heart, three-person'd God"
- George Herbert's "Easter Wings"
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We'll do this again. We did it right the first time. Let's do it right the second time.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Talking Poem Podcast. I'm your host, Charlie Green.
On each episode, I invite a guest to bring in any poem they'd like to talk about for any reason.
We'll talk about what excites us, what delights us, maybe what frustrates us,
and we'll follow the poem and the conversation wherever they turn.
Afterward, we'll have a little bit of silliness and a game. If you enjoy the show, please follow
and rate it wherever you get your podcast. I'm so happy to have as my guest Lisa B.
(00:28):
Lisa Bernstein. She is a poet, singer, performer, and recording artist. Her new book of poems is
God in Her Ruffled Dress from What Books Press, and her most recent full-length record is Reverberant.
Lisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah. So you brought in George Herbert's poem, The Flower. Whenever you're ready,
(00:49):
why don't you go ahead and read it, and then we'll give a quick gloss and talk about the poem.
The Flower. How fresh, O Lord, how sweet and clean are thy returns,
even as the flowers in spring, to which, besides their own demean, the late past frosts tributes
(01:11):
of pleasure bring. Grief melts away, like snow in May, as if there were no such cold thing.
Who could have thought my shriveled heart could have recovered greenness? It was gone,
quite underground, as flowers depart to see their mother root when they have blown.
(01:36):
Where they together all the hard weather, dead to the world, keep house unknown.
Unknown. These are thy wonders, Lord of power, killing and quickening, bringing down to hell
and up to heaven in an hour, making a chiming of a passing bell. We say amiss, this or that is,
(02:03):
thy word is all, if we could spell. Oh, that I once, past changing, were fast in thy paradise,
where no flower can wither. Many a spring I shoot up fair, offering at heaven, growing and groaning
thither. Nor doth my flower want a spring shower, my sins and I joining together.
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But while I grow in a straight line, still upwards bent as if heaven were mine own,
thy anger comes and I decline. What frost to that? What pole is not the zone where all things
burn when thou dost turn, and the least frown of thine is shown? And now in age I bud again.
(02:58):
After so many deaths I live and write. I once more smell but do and reign and relatively
and relish versing. Oh, my only light, it cannot be that I am he on whom thy tempests fell all night.
These are thy wonders, Lord of love, to make us see we are but flowers that glide,
(03:26):
which when we once can find and prove, thou hast a garden for us where to bide. Who would be more
for swelling through store forfeit their paradise by their pride?
Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad you brought in this poem and I love the way that you read it.
(03:47):
Can you give just a quick summary of the poem?
So this is a very personal, sensuous, even erotic, dramatic narrative about the speaker's
very passionate and torment-filled relationship with God, which has some peace and resolution
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fleetingly at the end.
That captures it really nicely. It sort of goes back and forth a little bit. It has his faith,
but also his doubt. It goes from the grief to the pleasure of rebirth in the spring.
And I'm glad that you mentioned that it's sensuous. I'm curious to hear you talk a little
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about sensuous moments in the poem and why you chose this poem.
Well, to start with why I chose it, Herbert was one of the three key authors I studied in graduate
school, and he really spoke to me because he's so personal and yet so spiritual. And his spirituality
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is very rooted in his real life and his real John as a deacon, although I'm not very familiar
with Christianity except really through poetry. I related very closely to that spiritual,
personal grappling and also the way it's rooted in his being a writer. His being a writer was
(05:20):
part of his job writing sermons and also I think his job, his vocation, they all melded together
in the world of poets and that he was in. But this is very much about him and not the church
and his landing and relish versing. So the torments he goes through as a person are completely linked
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to the torments he goes through as a writer and as a being. They're all the same thing.
And the sensuality is everywhere in this poem. I mean, it's in the structure, the meter,
the vowels, the consonants. As a singer, I'm really attuned to the vowels and the consonants
and how you perform them. And of course, as a poet, I've been noted as a very musical poet that
(06:16):
everything in my work has a musical dimension. And so this really personifies that. It's not
the most intellectual poem in the world, which I actually like. It's embodied. The poem is a body
and I really like that. So I mean, there's so many sensual moments, but the cycles of the flower,
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its rootedness in nature, its growing and growing upward. I mean, he really captures
the whole cyclical vision of what growth and nature are and puts that forward as a spiritual
reality. I guess it's a metaphor, but you feel like, yeah, no, it's not a metaphor. This is how
(07:00):
I feel. And there's also this sort of probably unconsciously transgressive, erotic element
where his spring shower of sins joining together, I think we're intended as weeping, whereas we
might read them as very orgasmic and has to do with the sort of sinfulness of his physical humanity.
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One thing I really love about the poem is that the sinfulness of his physical humanity is
a huge draw. It's the place where spirituality happens. So even though he's wanting to bifurcate
them and say, you, God, are up there and we're going to get to your paradise and I'm down here
grappling with this delayed satisfaction. In fact, this whole sensuous, erotic, versing,
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pleasurable, relishing process is spirituality.
06 I love that you covered a lot of the sensuality in the poem. And I think what that does for
Herbert in the poem is it allows the poem to, in a way, have multiple subjects. It's obviously this
poem about wanting the Lord to shine on you basically in a very, very literal sense and
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in the sense of spring coming back. And it's also about the tension between wanting that
from his Lord, the Lord of power and the Lord of love, but knowing that he can't get it until
he gets to paradise. As you said, it's also a poem about writing and going, but from those
times where there's just nothing, the store is empty. And then the times when it's fallow.
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And then also, like you said, there's also something kind of ironic about it. There's
the feeling in which almost everything passes through the body, whether it's grief,
whether it's desire. And it's not in any immediate obvious way, a poem about physical desire,
but he was sort of poet who liked to turn poems of erotic love into poems of secular and spiritual
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love. There's one critic who sort of linked this poem to a couple of poems by Mary Roth
from the sonnet cycle of hers in terms of she has this trope of flowers and he's brought it over
into this poem into a non-erotic context. Yeah. It's a poem that's just doing so much.
I especially love what you mentioned about the sound. I'm curious to hear you talk about
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a little more about the dimensions of sound in the poem.
One thing I really love is the diction is very plain spoken often and Anglo-Saxon,
that he's sticking to these beautiful, simple one syllable words that rhyme and that kind of shift
subtly in assonance. For instance, in the third to last verse, line own decline zone burn turn shown.
(09:59):
Hey, we could use this for a rap piece of a lot of short little words. You do hear that sort of
musicality in rap kind of versus nowhere else than contemporary pop music that's moving so quickly
through those vowels and consonants. The other thing is the metrical structure is strictly
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followed, but you don't really notice it. It feels completely natural. He's speaking to us.
Actually, he's speaking to God or to this vivid dramatic God that he conjures up
and that kind of shifts personalities very quickly. Yeah, the beautiful combination of
vowels and consonants that open and closed, depending on what he's talking about,
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is kind of relentless through the poem. It really never stops.
Yeah, I agree completely because I love the sound in this poem and it never stops,
but it goes through different registers in a way like the opening stanza, the vowels have this kind
of uplift to them. How sweet and clean, even as the flowers in spring, the tributes of pleasure
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bring. And so we get those vowels that are those higher register vowels in that first stanza.
It never comes back to that. The sound becomes a lot more complex as it goes and then there are a
lot more R sounds. My shriveled heart could have recovered greenness and it makes the language
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chunkier. I can't help but just mentioning this line as flowers depart to see their mother root.
It's such a strange line and I love the strangeness of it and the sound of it is really,
really powerful. Diverting a little from the sound since you brought up that line,
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this is one of the verses that really drew me to the poem because it's talking about the mother
and we don't see that a lot in this Christian verse, but we don't see femininity named as
femininity a lot or femaleness in this kind of verse. Herbert really goes there and I see it as
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a reference to the old pagan religions that are not that far away in this culture,
that there's still the May rites and the winter growing inward and the folk practices,
I'm sure, that were not decimated by the burning of all the witches. And the closeness to the old
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forms of spirituality persist in fairy tale and in nursery rhyme. And I'm sure that's right there
at his fingertips. In fact, I'm sure we could find nursery rhymes that are sort of echoed in here if
we were familiar with the whole encyclopedia of nursery rhymes. So I love that he is sort of the
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feminine party in this poem. He's the one that is waiting for the male authority to cast his grace
and approval onto him. And he's the one that's so changeable as females are presented as being in
this culture. And he's the one that's suffering waiting for approval and feeling stern rejection
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and admonishment. So he plays the more powerless and therefore female figure in this in a way that he
seems to relish, speaking of relishing, the drama of playing that role in a romance. Although I
suppose that the males who were courting the favor of the females also got to experience that sort of
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delicious passivity and lack of power. And that's part of what he's echoing here too. But it
certainly feels a lot less far away from courtly love. Absolutely. The only vestige of courtly
love is that it is a lord that he's trying to connect to, the lord of power. Exactly. But the
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idea of being a male going after a female, in the poem, he's not supposed to be going so overtly at
the lord. There's this idea of striving and the pride of trying to get to paradise. It's as if you
could try too hard to do that in the last stanza. Who would be more swelling through store forfeit
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their paradise by their pride? And so he knows he's supposed to want it and work toward it,
but the pleasure of it in part comes from the cycle of pleasure back into pain, back into pleasure.
And part of it's just the cycle of seasons and the rebirth and spring. But it's also,
you know, the way you already mentioned that it's the cycle of being able to write and not being
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able to write, the cycle of feeling closer to the lord and feeling further away that he's,
and at one point it's the lord of power, another point it's the lord of love. It's just such a rich
poem in terms of the way it has something erotic while it is not erotic, at least in its immediate
text. Right. It doesn't overtly present itself as such, but it's like really physiologically
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all the nerve endings are awakened as if in a more extreme sexual situation where you're focusing on
extreme feelings of physicality. But you know, I think one of the reasons that it's so relatable
to us as modern readers is that it's really a psycho drama. And there are two people in this
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drama together and that seems very, maybe two people and nature, or one of the persons is
nature at some point. It's a narrow and closed world as well of a relationship. And you know,
we see that in John Donne and we see that, which he was influenced by, and we see that in other
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writers, but this feels very sort of domestic and local. You know, there's an underground
and there's keeping house. You know, you go dead and you keep house and then you hear a chiming.
I mean, this could be a movie. Well, it's got a real narrative drive. And the
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internal narrative is the moving back and forth between death and rebirth and also feeling the
pleasure of spring. And also you mentioned the keeping house. Those are some of my favorite
lines. When they have blown, where they together, all the hard weather, dead to the world, keep house
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unknown. It's the house unknown is one of the things I really love in the poem. It's as if
their grief, because they're dead to the world in this way, he feels it that can't be experienced
by other people or people can't know it. That's right. It's private. And you know,
what's really interesting is I look more closely, this is the verse in which he is not with this
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Lord. He's in another place with the mother root. It's a time of grave death, but it's also a time
of personal replenishment. And it's interesting that this happens without God really being there.
That's kind of heretical, maybe. Well, it's weird. It's one of those things where he's trying to find
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God in something. He's trying to find it in the flower. And ultimately, biblically, God never
appears directly. It's always through signs. I mean, even Jesus is God, but human, there's the
burning bush. You know, it's very rare that we see that. And he wants that. That's one of the things
that and I'm not especially I'm not really religious myself, but it is always seems to be
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difficult to convey about faith is that there is the trust that you have to have. But also, I think
the desire to have some sign that you can point to for yourself and other people that even though
it's not something I really go through, I see the difficulty and the and the sort of emotional push
pull of that. Who could have thought my shriveled heart could have recovered greenness? You're
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absolutely right. It's not because of the Lord. It's something else. It's just that cycle of
rebirth in the spring that helps him feel that. Yeah, he's kind of getting himself ready again
to experience the Lord. And you know, your reference to religiousness, I mean, there were
a lot of debates at this time that were leaned more ideological about the nature of Christianity.
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And Herbert shied away from those and focused more on the direct experience of God. There's a term
for that that is not at my fingerness in the fingertips in the sort of complicated Christian
debates that they would have about the nature of faith. And his approach was more much more
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experiential. And he stated that, I think, and, you know, people sort of knew where he stood in the
politics of the church in that sense. So he reflects that here. But that's that's pretty
modern. There's faith, but there's also his process. He's, he's very much in his process.
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And in a super detailed way. And we relate to that. The physicality of his faith that seems to be
running through a number of poems, faith has to be rendered in some way through the physical.
I'm thinking of done batter my heart three person God, a poem that is all about physical action.
And, you know, in the verbs that that move through it, I would quote the whole thing,
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but I cannot remember. But you know, that's telling because Herbert would never say three
person God already that's intellectual. I mean, you're totally right. And Herbert did read that
column from what I understand, but he would never participate in his work in that level of
theological precision that God has a three person presentation is kind of not interested.
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And now it's much more about the sort of immediate experience that theology is less interesting to
him. He's not interested in doctrine the way he is just interested in the that connection to
God. You refer to those last lines where sort of the homily comes in. It's feels perfunctory and
maybe the most doctrinal note in the whole poem that you're supposed to you're not supposed to
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have pride. And it just feels a bit more dutiful than inspired. That what comes before it is great.
These are thy wonders, Lord of love. And that's the second these are thy wonders to make us see
we are but flowers that glide and he is obviously wrapping up there's a different kind of tone and
those last three who would be more swelling through store forfeit their paradise by their pride. He's
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basically Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is the homily. This is the lesson to be taken from
the poem, whereas so much of the rest of the poem is just rich and has this tension. He does mention
sin earlier on, but it doesn't feel doctrinal or like it's part of a homily earlier in the poem.
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Right. And the way you mentioned sin is my sins. And not only that my sins and I joining together.
So that tension between being worthy and unworthy and in a way being fed and nourished by this cycle
of sinfulness. It's pretty interesting when he says my sins and I joining together. Is that
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a good thing or a bad thing? You know, I'm Nordoth my flower want a spring shower. Well, that sounds
good. I'm cleansed by these orgasmic tears probably is how I meant it. But in some way,
he's fertilized by these tears. He's that he's joined in this. He's joined by his sins in this
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is an act of physical cleansing. Yeah. And I think he was big on that, that sort of the sense of
purification. We go through these purifications in order to see God.
We mentioned the it being sensuous and erotic and it is hard my sins and I joining together.
It's very hard for me not to not to, you know, sort of raise my eyebrows and, and, and because
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there are erotic elements in the poem without it being erotic. Like many a spring, I shoot up fair
offering at heaven growing and growing to there. And then the next stanza, but while I grow in a
straight line, still upwards bent as if heaven were my own, my anger comes and I decline.
Like there's, there's, we're, we're getting the, you know, it's not the cigar is not just a cigar
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here. Yeah, this might be the clearest representation in this era of poetry that we,
we get to male sexuality intended or not growing and groaning there. And yeah, the, the lines you
go on to quote. And I mean, here is really where I see that sort of sadomasochistic aspect of his
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relationship to God, that anger comes, there's no comparison to that, how that anger feels,
all things burn, the least frown of thine is torture. I mean, this does not seem mentally
healthy, even though it might be normal Christianity. If you stand apart from that
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paradigm of you are weak and the only thing stronger than you is this male God, and there's
a delicious interplay that you are trapped within and that you want to get back in. It's kind of odd.
It's amazing. It is odd. Well, there's, there's such intensity. I love these lines. And, but now
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that we've, you know, talked about the erotic and like double entendre and the poem, now my brain is
totally on, on those tracks. What hole is not the zone where all things burn? And having taken
classes many lives ago on, on like the night of the burning pestle, the play, which is where almost
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everything is sort of a double play on having like syphilis basically, having some sort of STD,
not that they had that language. And so what pole is not the zone where all things burn. And I,
I don't feel like that's what Herbert is interested in there, but it feels hard at times to
avoid the erotic dimension. The physical becomes, represents the spiritual intensity of it. You know,
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the, yeah, it's the least frown of thine is shown. It's in the context of God, but it's hard to ignore
the romantic and physical as well. This, this romantic, erotic, tormented relationship, which
basically takes place in the body despite all the talk about heaven and paradise. But speaking of
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which we do get to, it is still embodied, but it's much more ephemeral. I think of this as
Zen Herbert in the end, where he says to make us see we are but flowers that glide. And that sense
of letting go of the body, we're flowers, but we glide. I mean, I sort of envision these,
(26:07):
a flower that still has or multiple flowers that still have stems, but are floating. So it's kind
of an interesting, I mean, he goes right back to the solidity of a garden, which when we once can
find and prove thou has to garden for us, where to bide. So he, he doesn't stay ungrounded for long.
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Even paradise is a grounded garden that has roots. I also am noticing this plural
of flowers, because it's been such a personal relationship where he, he as an individual is
talking to God as an individual or the Lord, as you point out. But I don't think anyone else is
in the picture, aside from that mother root. And until this very last line where we get a moment of
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plurality of community, where we are multiple flowers, we are us, and then he refers to
and then he refers to others really for the first time, I think explicitly when he said,
who would be more forfeit their paradise by their pride. Grief melts away like snow in May.
(27:20):
It's a general grief, but I don't see any other people in here besides him.
No, I think you're right. And I wonder if, and part of it, I think is, is just the structural
choice to move from the, you know, the individual towards the homily at the end, you know, as if
the audience has to get that lesson. But it is, it is very strange that it is basically I and thou
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through the poem, although there is the great moment that I am he, like he suddenly is, you know,
it's not I, I am he on whom thy tempest fell all night, you know.
Right, right. So there's a, there are multiple selves, you know, he's the self that had the
tempest, which were both kind of thrilling and punishing at the same time. And also,
(28:10):
is there a reciprocal eroticism in here that he's feeling God's tempests? He's kind of out of that
drama in this verse. He's like, I'm budding again after so many deaths, so many little deaths,
you know, in the French phrase, so many psychic deaths. He's kind of back to a balanced self.
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I live and write, I once more smell the dew and rain and relish versing. So he can do versing and
he can relish it. It's a perspective on self that I can do things and then I can step back and relish
that I'm doing things or see that I relish. It's like, I'm doing it, I'm relishing it, and I see
(28:53):
that I'm relishing it. So different from the disempowering but thrilling drama of just
receiving tempests in unconsciousness. So it's a going back and forth between feeling that
obliterates consciousness and then consciousness. And speaking by the way of Zen Herbert, after so
(29:14):
many deaths, I live and write. Like, obviously there's the Christian rebirth, but you know,
he's going through the cycle of death and rebirth. And I just love that after so many deaths, I live
and write. I mean, there's an intensity to it, the poem throughout. And it's one of the things that
really appeals to me about it, because it's not a poem that I knew until you chose it. And so
(29:35):
I'm delighted to know it now. Yeah, we as writers go through this drama all the time, as we're in
communication with ourselves or with our muse or with our experience of divinity that feeds
the compressed state of creating poetry. So we could be writing this poem or hearing this poem
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as a poem to our fleeting inspiration. Where is it? Are you going to give me those tempests?
Am I going to be able to do anything with them? Am I worthless? All the things we go through as
creators, you know, which we hope offers to those who experience art that same vicarious intensity.
(30:25):
Well, I'm going to turn it over to you, Lisa, to share a poem of yours from your most recent
book, God in Her Ruffled Dress. Yeah, God in Her Ruffled Dress. Speaking of Herbert and his
dialogues with God and also is there a feminine presence lurking in her, which we've talked about
(30:45):
there is through nature. And this is not a particularly feminine God I'm talking to.
The book is structured kind of with a prelude and a coda. And the coda is Lisa's Lord's Prayer,
my rewritten versions of the Lord's Prayer. And this is the beginning. It's called God Number Two.
The idea is like if it's a series of poems about God, but the other, God Number One and God Number
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Three didn't make it into the book. So this was God Number Two. My God, who is the bodies of all
the men I've loved, the breasts I could not suck enough. Who is the cat's butt with the eyelashes
of a doll and the hardness of a doll's plastic chest. Who is the black space in the sky, the
(31:34):
stars like holes stabbed, bleeding and stupid to be killed like a thief. Restless, a tribe of outcasts
in the desert. Who is unpronounceable, who is carved in stone, particles of sand and granite adhering
(31:54):
into a tablet, a forgotten language. Who is the bodies in mass graves, the mossy hair overgrown
above the graves, the mulch, the lily, the chlorophyll filling the air, the cows gnashing teeth,
(32:16):
the meat. God who is the calcium, the code inside the chromosomes, the rebellion of the cells.
My God with the whisper, with the whiskery laughing, with the singing like rain hammering
on the roof of the universe, resonating through my teeth and through the whiskey-throated singer.
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God of can't stop me. God of no sorrow. Saying, write me, write me, write.
Now that's fantastic. It's a great pairing with the Herbert in part because the ways it's about
writing these ideas of a feminine God. But it's also one of the reasons I think it's a great
(33:03):
pairing is that there's a way in which Herbert's Lord in the poem is a fairly singular kind of
presence. And what I appreciate about your poem is that God is built from the various ways we know
the world. And so there's this amazing scale where we go from intimate details and then into the
(33:24):
chromosome and then into the earth. And so I just really appreciate seeing a God that is detailed
in this way rather than the God that's kind of singular. He's only the Lord of power and the
Lord of love for Herbert. Thank you. And I was noticing how much more of Herbert's... There are
other influences in here too, but how much of Herbert is in here with the wrestling with a God.
(33:48):
You have the hardness of the doll's plastic chest. I mean, that's a more maybe Anne Sexton or Soviet
Platt type of wrestling reference, but it's still like, why are you so hard? And the meat that shows
up in the poem, love Herbert, that I correlate God with me. And then also this kind of the cyclical
(34:10):
nature of bodies and mass graves which become mossy hair, which become mulch and lily and chlorophyll
and cow and leet that we can take in as if the blood of Christ. Although it's quite a bit more
of a Jewish poem in that having to, although all of us have to grapple with how can there be a God
(34:35):
in our world of genocide, the reference to mass graves and the wrestling with God, it seems
very Jewish to me, but the Jews don't know the wrestling with God, of course. And of course,
I think you just mentioned it, the reference to being a writer is at the center of talking to God.
(35:01):
Yeah. I mean, there's always the feeling... I think it's John Stuart Mill who described lyric
poems as being like someone's utterance that you're overhearing and so by implication in a way,
it's a prayer and so a poem give you a prayer. And I like also that yours is a different kind
of grappling than Herbert's because his is feels... I mean, ultimately he refers to all sinners at the
(35:26):
end, but his is mostly focused on his feeling in that relationship and yours reaches out beyond.
And part of that is just the scale of the kinds of images that come through in the poem,
in your poem. And so it's a great pairing. It's a really kind of perfect pairing of poems.
Oh, thank you. Right. Even though Herbert talks about heaven, his world is much more local
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and you can feel that in his poem. And it's a world that has a house and an underground and a
flower and nature and even though there's hot and cold and maybe some reference to an Arctic zone,
he's not sitting around watching images of the galaxy on television like we do,
(36:13):
and which you can see kind of creep into my phone. So yeah, another reason Herbert is very
refreshing is that the narrowness of his world, sort of like Dickinson, that in a very narrow world,
we feel incredible breath. I kind of want to appear... I'll link everything I'd mention in
(36:35):
the show notes, but now I kind of want to pair it since you mentioned Dunn and they knew each other
to some extent, I kind of want to include a batter my heart three person God where it's just totally
into the violence and the servile relationship and the, I think as you put it earlier, the S&M
(36:55):
relationship with God. Yeah. I think Herbert may have actually been literally influenced by that
poem of Dunn's in writing this. They shared their work pretty closely. I mean, yeah, they had passed
around work a lot in that time. Even though Dunn was older, it's not like the 25 different poetry
camps we have now. It seems like the poetry camp of that era was a pretty close group from what
(37:23):
I understand. Yeah. They were together at Godloaf and sharing poems. On that note, are you ready
to turn to the silliness? Absolutely. I want your Monty Python comes to America flavor here that you
do. That's a high bar to live up to and I usually go for the low road. But one of your influences,
(37:48):
right? Oh, absolutely. Of course. Of course. So before we get to the game, as always, we have an
ad with high stakes testing in the common core, kids read less and less poetry in school all the
time. So how on earth can we bring poetry to kids? At breakfast. That's how, thanks to the largest
cereal producing companies in the United States, Elanova, the Kellogg Corporation, General Mills,
(38:13):
Malt O'Mille, Nestle, Quaker Oats, and Post Foods. They're putting poetry on their cereal boxes,
so kids get exposure at the breakfast table. They'll fall in love with poems like, Oh Captain,
My Captain Crunch. Do you want your children to be champions and give them some W.H. Auden?
The crowds upon the pavement were fields of harvest Wheaties. Or on a box of Frosted Flakes,
(38:36):
they'll learn Tiger, Tony, Burning Bright. Frosted Flakes are great. Speaking of frost,
if your kids like Robert Frost, they'll love Fire and Ice Crispies and After Apple Jacking.
These, sorry, that may be the worst pun I've ever written. These breakfast companies have left no
idea undiscovered. If you want them to start the day with Lucille Clifton inspired spiritual tone,
(39:00):
give them Blessing the Honey Bunches of Boats. If your kids enjoy Lucky Charms, they can get to know
Wallace Stevens through his Leprechaun, Coopas and Curds. Take your kids to the Quaker Oats
Graveyard in Nantucket to meet Robert Lowell. Your kids will be real cuckoo cool for Cocoa Puffs.
Do they like Froot Loops? I too can Sam Sing America. And they'll love Sylvia Plass Franken
(39:26):
Burying. So if you see Mr. Kililog or General Orwell Mills around, thank them because capitalism is
bringing poetry back to the people. For profit. All right, that's it. That's the ad. Okay,
I think that's your best ad ever. All right, onto a game which I am calling,
Excuse Me While I Kiss This Guy Because We Built This City on Sausage Rolls.
(39:47):
So in this game, I'm going to play you a snippet of the vocal track from a hit song. And you have to
tell me what you think the lyrics are. And you know, as much as you can understand, you don't
have to get them all correct. You're competing with an AI voice to text transcription program.
So I ran these to see how those would translate the lyrics. So you just have to do better than
(40:12):
the AI. Any questions about the game? I think they'll understand it when we get into it.
Okay, well, Lisa Bernstein, are you ready to play Excuse Me While I Kiss This Guy Because
We Built This City on Sausage Rolls? Yes. The first set of lyrics I'm going to play you is
from Pearl Jam's song Even Flow. And it's just a short, I'll pause a few times if you want to
(40:38):
take it in a piecemeal way. But you just have to guess what the lyrics are. And it's just the
vocal track. There's no other music. It's just the vocal track. Okay.
Do you hear that? Something leave it. You know, I kind of have to hear it again.
(40:59):
Okay, can I can do that.
I'm looking through the paper though he doesn't know to read the beginning. And I don't know what
he's saying in the beginning can feel that can leave that. You're very close. There are three
(41:22):
more lines to get through. And then you're you've you've you're already already at well over 80%
of the line, which is I think pretty good. Second line.
Do you want to hear that one again? Yeah.
(41:42):
Oh, gosh. Here we go.
Oh, praying I was on the ladder gonna show the old man a thing.
Close. Very close. I'll go well.
Yeah, this is making me like Pearl Jam a lot more than I ever have. Maybe because the lack
(42:04):
of other instrumentation. That probably helps because he can actually he can sing pretty well.
Lyrics are interesting. Yeah, yeah, the lyrics are are a lot better than I was anticipating. So
that I was anticipating. So two more lines. Oh, feeling understand the weather. Now the
(42:30):
winter's on its way. Or maybe he said understanding the winter now the weather's on its way. I can't
remember. You actually got it right the first time like you've got almost the entire line.
Correct. Which is incredible. Okay. The last last line from Pearl Jam.
(42:57):
Can I hear it again? Yes. Yeah, it's not this one is not what I would call a comprehensible. So.
Oh, ceiling. I doubt he's saying that. Can I stick a bob between all the legal halls of shame?
(43:19):
That is that is better than I did when I tried this. So the AI generator rendered the lyrics as
Layla looking through the paper, though he doesn't know the reader. Although protean out of something
that is never told him anything, kneeling on his hands on whether other winter is on his way,
(43:41):
all feeling few and far between all illegal. How the same you did much better than the AI.
The actual lyrics are kneeling, looking through the paper, though he doesn't know how to read,
which you were very, very close to. Oh, praying now to something that has never showed him anything.
Oh, feeling understands the weather of the winter's on its way, which you got almost word perfect.
(44:07):
And then, oh, ceilings, few and far between all the legal halls of shame. Okay. You know what?
I am noting this song because this sounds like a really cool song to cover in a completely different
style. Yeah, these lyrics. I don't totally understand ceilings, few and far between all
(44:28):
the legal halls of shame, but the lyrics on the whole, I'm a lot more pleased by. All right.
Number two is from the bare naked ladies song one week. And I've chosen as brief a snippet as I can.
So here we go. Gonna make a break and take a break out like a stinkin, they can check out like
vanilla. It's the finest of the flavors. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo
(44:49):
is going to go cause it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. All right. Just initial,
like any words that came through. Play it again, but don't say anything afterward. Okay. Okay.
Gonna make a break and take a break out like a stinkin, they can check out like vanilla. It's
the finest of the flavors. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo is going to go cause
it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. The vertigo, the chalkers, you're going to have to
(45:13):
sign a waiver. I mean, I'd have to hear it right after the line to get it. Wake a bake a shake,
take a, I forgot the rest. That's, that is totally fine. The whole thing. The third one's going to be
harder. But no, no, there is there. It's gonna make a break and take a fake. I'd like a stinkin,
(45:36):
aching shake. I like vanilla. It's the finest of the flavors, which is the first line of that.
That makes any sense. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo is going to grow
cause it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. Not a great song, a popular song, but.
Yeah, but pretty, you know, rhythmic, you know, the interesting words in there.
(45:56):
Yes, there is. It does feel a little bit like they, the sound, if you took the language away
in terms of meaning, the sound I kind of like, but the rest of it, not myself a fan of. I do
think you did better than the AI, which going to take a break and take a break. I like to think
(46:17):
and make a check. I like vanilla. It's the finesse of the flavors and to see the sugars and you know,
the vertigo was going to go because it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. Okay.
Now the third one, I'm, I'm going to apologize for you in advance. I'm going to play it at its
(46:38):
regular pace and then I'll play a slowed down version and then I'll pause throughout the slowed
down version. This is from the Eminem song rap God. So are you ready? Yes. Okay.
Uh, someone I'm a do-man, I'm a, you assuming I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you.
I'm super human and innovative and I'm in a bubble so that anything you say is because
shaming off of me and it'll be you and devastating more than ever demonstrating how to give a
(46:59):
motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating, never fading. And I know the hit is
a forever waiting for the day to think. Cause yeah, I fell off to be celebrating cause I know the way
to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make elevator music. Well, you know, I'd
had to get it line by line. It's just too much. Yeah, it is way too much. Well, let's see what,
what I can do line by line with it slowed down. So, uh, someone I'm a do-man, I'm a, you assuming
(47:20):
I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you. So what do we human assume I'm even then
what do I got to do to get it through to you? Hey, you know, what's kind of amazing is that
you clocked to the first few words are complete nonsense. It's a summa humma, dooma looma.
You assuming I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you. I'm, I'm really impressed.
(47:43):
You got that. Oh, thank you. Let's go with the next bit. Superhuman, innovative, and I'm in a
bravo. So they, anything you say is because shaming off of me and it'll be you. I can play that again
or in shorter bursts. Yeah, play it again. What I gotta do to get it through to you. I'm superhuman,
innovative, and I'm in a bravo. So they, anything you say is because shaming off of me.
(48:03):
I don't forget the order, but superhuman, what I gotta do to get it through superhuman, innovative,
what do I, what I gotta do to get it through to you. I forgot what else you said. You got,
you got the start of it. It goes on. I'm made of rubber so that anything you say is ricocheting
(48:24):
off of me. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. No, there's, there's no, even slowed down. There's
not much of a way to, to catch it. I'll, it's very hard to do this in short chunks, but I'll try to
make a shorter chunk for you here. Me and this little one, you are devastating more than ever
demonstrating. Devastating more than something demonstrating. Nice. It'll glue to you and I'm
(48:47):
devastating more than ever demonstrating. All right. Okay. Here we go. I don't give a
motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating. Motherfucker, how to give us something
levitating? How to give a motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating. A feeling. Oh,
so I heard, I heard that N word in there that he didn't say. No, he did not. Okay. He's, he's
(49:13):
been careful in his career to avoid that, I think. So, all right, let me give you, uh, there are four
more lines. I'll try to give them to you line by line. Never fading. And I know the haters are
forever waiting. Levitating. And I know the haters are forever waiting. Uh, very close. It's never
fading. And I know the haters are forever waiting. So one line, next line. The day that they can say,
(49:36):
I fell off. They'll be celebrating. That's, uh, I'll be celebrating. I forgot the beginning.
Yeah. For the day they're forever waiting for the day they can say, I fell off. They'll be
celebrating. And I'm going to give you the last two lines together because the last line slows down.
I know the way to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make elevator music.
(49:58):
And I know the way to get them motivated is to make them elevating music. You make elevator music.
Fantastic. Cause I know the way to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make
elevator music. I get occasional words there. I am very impressed. And I know for certain,
and you beat the, uh, the AI. Some of you are someone, I'm a human, but I got to really get it
(50:23):
through to you and superhuman innovative. And I made a promise. I'll take anything you say,
because it's seeing enough of me in the a, we are totally off at this point. You were
devastated more than ever demonstrating how to give a motherfucking note. I guess I feel like
it's levitating, never fading. And I know the head is off. I've been waiting for the day to think of
(50:46):
the NFL up there be celebrating. Cause I know the way to get him motivated. I make elevating music.
You make elevator music. You did fantastically there. I don't think they're feeding AI much
rap diction. No, I don't think so. See, does not mention the NFL in there and the K you know,
(51:11):
the cadence and that appropriated or used, um, phrasing, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of
scary that AI isn't getting any of that. I guess they don't, they don't have rep prompters. Yeah.
Well, they don't, but they do have AI websites where you can generate rap lyrics. You put in,
(51:31):
and you put in a prompt, like a word or a few words, and then it gives you a rap and they are
not good. They just don't have the flavor. No, no, they don't. They don't. That was super fun.
When you told me you were going to give me audio clips, somehow I didn't expect these, but I'm glad.
I think there is no way to expect that. So thank you so much for being here. Is there anything you
(51:54):
would like to say or plug before we go? Oh, well, I have had a great time with you here. Thank you.
And also please check out my new book, God in Her Ruffled Dress. It's come out 34 years after my first
book from Wesleyan University Press, The Transparent Body. And in between as Lisa B, parentheses Lisa
(52:17):
Bernstein, I released seven records and some of them do have a poetic rap element interspersed
with the singing. Yeah. And they are available on Spotify and, well, I know Spotify, probably Apple
Music. I don't use Apple Music. All those platforms. And if you like jazz, I recommend you listen.
(52:39):
Well, thank you so much for being here and thanks to everybody for listening. Have a great day.
Go read some poems, pet some dogs and support striking workers wherever you find them. Bye.
We'll do this again. We did it right the first time. Let's do it right the second time.
(00:03):
Welcome to the Talking Poem Podcast. I'm your host, Charlie Green.
On each episode, I invite a guest to bring in any poem they'd like to talk about for any reason.
We'll talk about what excites us, what delights us, maybe what frustrates us,
and we'll follow the poem and the conversation wherever they turn.
Afterward, we'll have a little bit of silliness and a game. If you enjoy the show, please follow
and rate it wherever you get your podcast. I'm so happy to have as my guest Lisa B.
(00:28):
Lisa Bernstein. She is a poet, singer, performer, and recording artist. Her new book of poems is
God in Her Ruffled Dress from What Books Press, and her most recent full-length record is Reverberant.
Lisa, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah. So you brought in George Herbert's poem, The Flower. Whenever you're ready,
(00:49):
why don't you go ahead and read it, and then we'll give a quick gloss and talk about the poem.
The Flower. How fresh, O Lord, how sweet and clean are thy returns,
even as the flowers in spring, to which, besides their own demean, the late past frosts tributes
(01:11):
of pleasure bring. Grief melts away, like snow in May, as if there were no such cold thing.
Who could have thought my shriveled heart could have recovered greenness? It was gone,
quite underground, as flowers depart to see their mother root when they have blown.
(01:36):
Where they together all the hard weather, dead to the world, keep house unknown.
Unknown. These are thy wonders, Lord of power, killing and quickening, bringing down to hell
and up to heaven in an hour, making a chiming of a passing bell. We say amiss, this or that is,
(02:03):
thy word is all, if we could spell. Oh, that I once, past changing, were fast in thy paradise,
where no flower can wither. Many a spring I shoot up fair, offering at heaven, growing and groaning
thither. Nor doth my flower want a spring shower, my sins and I joining together.
(02:31):
But while I grow in a straight line, still upwards bent as if heaven were mine own,
thy anger comes and I decline. What frost to that? What pole is not the zone where all things
burn when thou dost turn, and the least frown of thine is shown? And now in age I bud again.
(02:58):
After so many deaths I live and write. I once more smell but do and reign and relatively
and relish versing. Oh, my only light, it cannot be that I am he on whom thy tempests fell all night.
These are thy wonders, Lord of love, to make us see we are but flowers that glide,
(03:26):
which when we once can find and prove, thou hast a garden for us where to bide. Who would be more
for swelling through store forfeit their paradise by their pride?
Oh, thank you so much. I'm so glad you brought in this poem and I love the way that you read it.
(03:47):
Can you give just a quick summary of the poem?
So this is a very personal, sensuous, even erotic, dramatic narrative about the speaker's
very passionate and torment-filled relationship with God, which has some peace and resolution
(04:12):
fleetingly at the end.
That captures it really nicely. It sort of goes back and forth a little bit. It has his faith,
but also his doubt. It goes from the grief to the pleasure of rebirth in the spring.
And I'm glad that you mentioned that it's sensuous. I'm curious to hear you talk a little
(04:34):
about sensuous moments in the poem and why you chose this poem.
Well, to start with why I chose it, Herbert was one of the three key authors I studied in graduate
school, and he really spoke to me because he's so personal and yet so spiritual. And his spirituality
(04:56):
is very rooted in his real life and his real John as a deacon, although I'm not very familiar
with Christianity except really through poetry. I related very closely to that spiritual,
personal grappling and also the way it's rooted in his being a writer. His being a writer was
(05:20):
part of his job writing sermons and also I think his job, his vocation, they all melded together
in the world of poets and that he was in. But this is very much about him and not the church
and his landing and relish versing. So the torments he goes through as a person are completely linked
(05:47):
to the torments he goes through as a writer and as a being. They're all the same thing.
And the sensuality is everywhere in this poem. I mean, it's in the structure, the meter,
the vowels, the consonants. As a singer, I'm really attuned to the vowels and the consonants
and how you perform them. And of course, as a poet, I've been noted as a very musical poet that
(06:16):
everything in my work has a musical dimension. And so this really personifies that. It's not
the most intellectual poem in the world, which I actually like. It's embodied. The poem is a body
and I really like that. So I mean, there's so many sensual moments, but the cycles of the flower,
(06:39):
its rootedness in nature, its growing and growing upward. I mean, he really captures
the whole cyclical vision of what growth and nature are and puts that forward as a spiritual
reality. I guess it's a metaphor, but you feel like, yeah, no, it's not a metaphor. This is how
(07:00):
I feel. And there's also this sort of probably unconsciously transgressive, erotic element
where his spring shower of sins joining together, I think we're intended as weeping, whereas we
might read them as very orgasmic and has to do with the sort of sinfulness of his physical humanity.
(07:27):
One thing I really love about the poem is that the sinfulness of his physical humanity is
a huge draw. It's the place where spirituality happens. So even though he's wanting to bifurcate
them and say, you, God, are up there and we're going to get to your paradise and I'm down here
grappling with this delayed satisfaction. In fact, this whole sensuous, erotic, versing,
(07:55):
pleasurable, relishing process is spirituality.
06 I love that you covered a lot of the sensuality in the poem. And I think what that does for
Herbert in the poem is it allows the poem to, in a way, have multiple subjects. It's obviously this
poem about wanting the Lord to shine on you basically in a very, very literal sense and
(08:21):
in the sense of spring coming back. And it's also about the tension between wanting that
from his Lord, the Lord of power and the Lord of love, but knowing that he can't get it until
he gets to paradise. As you said, it's also a poem about writing and going, but from those
times where there's just nothing, the store is empty. And then the times when it's fallow.
(08:44):
And then also, like you said, there's also something kind of ironic about it. There's
the feeling in which almost everything passes through the body, whether it's grief,
whether it's desire. And it's not in any immediate obvious way, a poem about physical desire,
but he was sort of poet who liked to turn poems of erotic love into poems of secular and spiritual
(09:08):
love. There's one critic who sort of linked this poem to a couple of poems by Mary Roth
from the sonnet cycle of hers in terms of she has this trope of flowers and he's brought it over
into this poem into a non-erotic context. Yeah. It's a poem that's just doing so much.
I especially love what you mentioned about the sound. I'm curious to hear you talk about
(09:30):
a little more about the dimensions of sound in the poem.
One thing I really love is the diction is very plain spoken often and Anglo-Saxon,
that he's sticking to these beautiful, simple one syllable words that rhyme and that kind of shift
subtly in assonance. For instance, in the third to last verse, line own decline zone burn turn shown.
(09:59):
Hey, we could use this for a rap piece of a lot of short little words. You do hear that sort of
musicality in rap kind of versus nowhere else than contemporary pop music that's moving so quickly
through those vowels and consonants. The other thing is the metrical structure is strictly
(10:27):
followed, but you don't really notice it. It feels completely natural. He's speaking to us.
Actually, he's speaking to God or to this vivid dramatic God that he conjures up
and that kind of shifts personalities very quickly. Yeah, the beautiful combination of
vowels and consonants that open and closed, depending on what he's talking about,
(10:53):
is kind of relentless through the poem. It really never stops.
Yeah, I agree completely because I love the sound in this poem and it never stops,
but it goes through different registers in a way like the opening stanza, the vowels have this kind
of uplift to them. How sweet and clean, even as the flowers in spring, the tributes of pleasure
(11:17):
bring. And so we get those vowels that are those higher register vowels in that first stanza.
It never comes back to that. The sound becomes a lot more complex as it goes and then there are a
lot more R sounds. My shriveled heart could have recovered greenness and it makes the language
(11:39):
chunkier. I can't help but just mentioning this line as flowers depart to see their mother root.
It's such a strange line and I love the strangeness of it and the sound of it is really,
really powerful. Diverting a little from the sound since you brought up that line,
(12:00):
this is one of the verses that really drew me to the poem because it's talking about the mother
and we don't see that a lot in this Christian verse, but we don't see femininity named as
femininity a lot or femaleness in this kind of verse. Herbert really goes there and I see it as
(12:24):
a reference to the old pagan religions that are not that far away in this culture,
that there's still the May rites and the winter growing inward and the folk practices,
I'm sure, that were not decimated by the burning of all the witches. And the closeness to the old
(12:49):
forms of spirituality persist in fairy tale and in nursery rhyme. And I'm sure that's right there
at his fingertips. In fact, I'm sure we could find nursery rhymes that are sort of echoed in here if
we were familiar with the whole encyclopedia of nursery rhymes. So I love that he is sort of the
(13:11):
feminine party in this poem. He's the one that is waiting for the male authority to cast his grace
and approval onto him. And he's the one that's so changeable as females are presented as being in
this culture. And he's the one that's suffering waiting for approval and feeling stern rejection
(13:36):
and admonishment. So he plays the more powerless and therefore female figure in this in a way that he
seems to relish, speaking of relishing, the drama of playing that role in a romance. Although I
suppose that the males who were courting the favor of the females also got to experience that sort of
(14:01):
delicious passivity and lack of power. And that's part of what he's echoing here too. But it
certainly feels a lot less far away from courtly love. Absolutely. The only vestige of courtly
love is that it is a lord that he's trying to connect to, the lord of power. Exactly. But the
(14:21):
idea of being a male going after a female, in the poem, he's not supposed to be going so overtly at
the lord. There's this idea of striving and the pride of trying to get to paradise. It's as if you
could try too hard to do that in the last stanza. Who would be more swelling through store forfeit
(14:44):
their paradise by their pride? And so he knows he's supposed to want it and work toward it,
but the pleasure of it in part comes from the cycle of pleasure back into pain, back into pleasure.
And part of it's just the cycle of seasons and the rebirth and spring. But it's also,
you know, the way you already mentioned that it's the cycle of being able to write and not being
(15:08):
able to write, the cycle of feeling closer to the lord and feeling further away that he's,
and at one point it's the lord of power, another point it's the lord of love. It's just such a rich
poem in terms of the way it has something erotic while it is not erotic, at least in its immediate
text. Right. It doesn't overtly present itself as such, but it's like really physiologically
(15:33):
all the nerve endings are awakened as if in a more extreme sexual situation where you're focusing on
extreme feelings of physicality. But you know, I think one of the reasons that it's so relatable
to us as modern readers is that it's really a psycho drama. And there are two people in this
(16:01):
drama together and that seems very, maybe two people and nature, or one of the persons is
nature at some point. It's a narrow and closed world as well of a relationship. And you know,
we see that in John Donne and we see that, which he was influenced by, and we see that in other
(16:26):
writers, but this feels very sort of domestic and local. You know, there's an underground
and there's keeping house. You know, you go dead and you keep house and then you hear a chiming.
I mean, this could be a movie. Well, it's got a real narrative drive. And the
(16:50):
internal narrative is the moving back and forth between death and rebirth and also feeling the
pleasure of spring. And also you mentioned the keeping house. Those are some of my favorite
lines. When they have blown, where they together, all the hard weather, dead to the world, keep house
(17:10):
unknown. It's the house unknown is one of the things I really love in the poem. It's as if
their grief, because they're dead to the world in this way, he feels it that can't be experienced
by other people or people can't know it. That's right. It's private. And you know,
what's really interesting is I look more closely, this is the verse in which he is not with this
(17:33):
Lord. He's in another place with the mother root. It's a time of grave death, but it's also a time
of personal replenishment. And it's interesting that this happens without God really being there.
That's kind of heretical, maybe. Well, it's weird. It's one of those things where he's trying to find
(17:59):
God in something. He's trying to find it in the flower. And ultimately, biblically, God never
appears directly. It's always through signs. I mean, even Jesus is God, but human, there's the
burning bush. You know, it's very rare that we see that. And he wants that. That's one of the things
that and I'm not especially I'm not really religious myself, but it is always seems to be
(18:21):
difficult to convey about faith is that there is the trust that you have to have. But also, I think
the desire to have some sign that you can point to for yourself and other people that even though
it's not something I really go through, I see the difficulty and the and the sort of emotional push
pull of that. Who could have thought my shriveled heart could have recovered greenness? You're
(18:47):
absolutely right. It's not because of the Lord. It's something else. It's just that cycle of
rebirth in the spring that helps him feel that. Yeah, he's kind of getting himself ready again
to experience the Lord. And you know, your reference to religiousness, I mean, there were
a lot of debates at this time that were leaned more ideological about the nature of Christianity.
(19:13):
And Herbert shied away from those and focused more on the direct experience of God. There's a term
for that that is not at my fingerness in the fingertips in the sort of complicated Christian
debates that they would have about the nature of faith. And his approach was more much more
(19:36):
experiential. And he stated that, I think, and, you know, people sort of knew where he stood in the
politics of the church in that sense. So he reflects that here. But that's that's pretty
modern. There's faith, but there's also his process. He's, he's very much in his process.
(19:57):
And in a super detailed way. And we relate to that. The physicality of his faith that seems to be
running through a number of poems, faith has to be rendered in some way through the physical.
I'm thinking of done batter my heart three person God, a poem that is all about physical action.
And, you know, in the verbs that that move through it, I would quote the whole thing,
(20:21):
but I cannot remember. But you know, that's telling because Herbert would never say three
person God already that's intellectual. I mean, you're totally right. And Herbert did read that
column from what I understand, but he would never participate in his work in that level of
theological precision that God has a three person presentation is kind of not interested.
(20:45):
And now it's much more about the sort of immediate experience that theology is less interesting to
him. He's not interested in doctrine the way he is just interested in the that connection to
God. You refer to those last lines where sort of the homily comes in. It's feels perfunctory and
maybe the most doctrinal note in the whole poem that you're supposed to you're not supposed to
(21:10):
have pride. And it just feels a bit more dutiful than inspired. That what comes before it is great.
These are thy wonders, Lord of love. And that's the second these are thy wonders to make us see
we are but flowers that glide and he is obviously wrapping up there's a different kind of tone and
those last three who would be more swelling through store forfeit their paradise by their pride. He's
(21:35):
basically Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is the homily. This is the lesson to be taken from
the poem, whereas so much of the rest of the poem is just rich and has this tension. He does mention
sin earlier on, but it doesn't feel doctrinal or like it's part of a homily earlier in the poem.
(21:56):
Right. And the way you mentioned sin is my sins. And not only that my sins and I joining together.
So that tension between being worthy and unworthy and in a way being fed and nourished by this cycle
of sinfulness. It's pretty interesting when he says my sins and I joining together. Is that
(22:18):
a good thing or a bad thing? You know, I'm Nordoth my flower want a spring shower. Well, that sounds
good. I'm cleansed by these orgasmic tears probably is how I meant it. But in some way,
he's fertilized by these tears. He's that he's joined in this. He's joined by his sins in this
(22:41):
is an act of physical cleansing. Yeah. And I think he was big on that, that sort of the sense of
purification. We go through these purifications in order to see God.
We mentioned the it being sensuous and erotic and it is hard my sins and I joining together.
It's very hard for me not to not to, you know, sort of raise my eyebrows and, and, and because
(23:04):
there are erotic elements in the poem without it being erotic. Like many a spring, I shoot up fair
offering at heaven growing and growing to there. And then the next stanza, but while I grow in a
straight line, still upwards bent as if heaven were my own, my anger comes and I decline.
Like there's, there's, we're, we're getting the, you know, it's not the cigar is not just a cigar
(23:27):
here. Yeah, this might be the clearest representation in this era of poetry that we,
we get to male sexuality intended or not growing and groaning there. And yeah, the, the lines you
go on to quote. And I mean, here is really where I see that sort of sadomasochistic aspect of his
(23:51):
relationship to God, that anger comes, there's no comparison to that, how that anger feels,
all things burn, the least frown of thine is torture. I mean, this does not seem mentally
healthy, even though it might be normal Christianity. If you stand apart from that
(24:15):
paradigm of you are weak and the only thing stronger than you is this male God, and there's
a delicious interplay that you are trapped within and that you want to get back in. It's kind of odd.
It's amazing. It is odd. Well, there's, there's such intensity. I love these lines. And, but now
(24:36):
that we've, you know, talked about the erotic and like double entendre and the poem, now my brain is
totally on, on those tracks. What hole is not the zone where all things burn? And having taken
classes many lives ago on, on like the night of the burning pestle, the play, which is where almost
(24:56):
everything is sort of a double play on having like syphilis basically, having some sort of STD,
not that they had that language. And so what pole is not the zone where all things burn. And I,
I don't feel like that's what Herbert is interested in there, but it feels hard at times to
avoid the erotic dimension. The physical becomes, represents the spiritual intensity of it. You know,
(25:22):
the, yeah, it's the least frown of thine is shown. It's in the context of God, but it's hard to ignore
the romantic and physical as well. This, this romantic, erotic, tormented relationship, which
basically takes place in the body despite all the talk about heaven and paradise. But speaking of
(25:43):
which we do get to, it is still embodied, but it's much more ephemeral. I think of this as
Zen Herbert in the end, where he says to make us see we are but flowers that glide. And that sense
of letting go of the body, we're flowers, but we glide. I mean, I sort of envision these,
(26:07):
a flower that still has or multiple flowers that still have stems, but are floating. So it's kind
of an interesting, I mean, he goes right back to the solidity of a garden, which when we once can
find and prove thou has to garden for us, where to bide. So he, he doesn't stay ungrounded for long.
(26:28):
Even paradise is a grounded garden that has roots. I also am noticing this plural
of flowers, because it's been such a personal relationship where he, he as an individual is
talking to God as an individual or the Lord, as you point out. But I don't think anyone else is
in the picture, aside from that mother root. And until this very last line where we get a moment of
(26:55):
plurality of community, where we are multiple flowers, we are us, and then he refers to
and then he refers to others really for the first time, I think explicitly when he said,
who would be more forfeit their paradise by their pride. Grief melts away like snow in May.
(27:20):
It's a general grief, but I don't see any other people in here besides him.
No, I think you're right. And I wonder if, and part of it, I think is, is just the structural
choice to move from the, you know, the individual towards the homily at the end, you know, as if
the audience has to get that lesson. But it is, it is very strange that it is basically I and thou
(27:45):
through the poem, although there is the great moment that I am he, like he suddenly is, you know,
it's not I, I am he on whom thy tempest fell all night, you know.
Right, right. So there's a, there are multiple selves, you know, he's the self that had the
tempest, which were both kind of thrilling and punishing at the same time. And also,
(28:10):
is there a reciprocal eroticism in here that he's feeling God's tempests? He's kind of out of that
drama in this verse. He's like, I'm budding again after so many deaths, so many little deaths,
you know, in the French phrase, so many psychic deaths. He's kind of back to a balanced self.
(28:32):
I live and write, I once more smell the dew and rain and relish versing. So he can do versing and
he can relish it. It's a perspective on self that I can do things and then I can step back and relish
that I'm doing things or see that I relish. It's like, I'm doing it, I'm relishing it, and I see
(28:53):
that I'm relishing it. So different from the disempowering but thrilling drama of just
receiving tempests in unconsciousness. So it's a going back and forth between feeling that
obliterates consciousness and then consciousness. And speaking by the way of Zen Herbert, after so
(29:14):
many deaths, I live and write. Like, obviously there's the Christian rebirth, but you know,
he's going through the cycle of death and rebirth. And I just love that after so many deaths, I live
and write. I mean, there's an intensity to it, the poem throughout. And it's one of the things that
really appeals to me about it, because it's not a poem that I knew until you chose it. And so
(29:35):
I'm delighted to know it now. Yeah, we as writers go through this drama all the time, as we're in
communication with ourselves or with our muse or with our experience of divinity that feeds
the compressed state of creating poetry. So we could be writing this poem or hearing this poem
(29:59):
as a poem to our fleeting inspiration. Where is it? Are you going to give me those tempests?
Am I going to be able to do anything with them? Am I worthless? All the things we go through as
creators, you know, which we hope offers to those who experience art that same vicarious intensity.
(30:25):
Well, I'm going to turn it over to you, Lisa, to share a poem of yours from your most recent
book, God in Her Ruffled Dress. Yeah, God in Her Ruffled Dress. Speaking of Herbert and his
dialogues with God and also is there a feminine presence lurking in her, which we've talked about
(30:45):
there is through nature. And this is not a particularly feminine God I'm talking to.
The book is structured kind of with a prelude and a coda. And the coda is Lisa's Lord's Prayer,
my rewritten versions of the Lord's Prayer. And this is the beginning. It's called God Number Two.
The idea is like if it's a series of poems about God, but the other, God Number One and God Number
(31:09):
Three didn't make it into the book. So this was God Number Two. My God, who is the bodies of all
the men I've loved, the breasts I could not suck enough. Who is the cat's butt with the eyelashes
of a doll and the hardness of a doll's plastic chest. Who is the black space in the sky, the
(31:34):
stars like holes stabbed, bleeding and stupid to be killed like a thief. Restless, a tribe of outcasts
in the desert. Who is unpronounceable, who is carved in stone, particles of sand and granite adhering
(31:54):
into a tablet, a forgotten language. Who is the bodies in mass graves, the mossy hair overgrown
above the graves, the mulch, the lily, the chlorophyll filling the air, the cows gnashing teeth,
(32:16):
the meat. God who is the calcium, the code inside the chromosomes, the rebellion of the cells.
My God with the whisper, with the whiskery laughing, with the singing like rain hammering
on the roof of the universe, resonating through my teeth and through the whiskey-throated singer.
(32:43):
God of can't stop me. God of no sorrow. Saying, write me, write me, write.
Now that's fantastic. It's a great pairing with the Herbert in part because the ways it's about
writing these ideas of a feminine God. But it's also one of the reasons I think it's a great
(33:03):
pairing is that there's a way in which Herbert's Lord in the poem is a fairly singular kind of
presence. And what I appreciate about your poem is that God is built from the various ways we know
the world. And so there's this amazing scale where we go from intimate details and then into the
(33:24):
chromosome and then into the earth. And so I just really appreciate seeing a God that is detailed
in this way rather than the God that's kind of singular. He's only the Lord of power and the
Lord of love for Herbert. Thank you. And I was noticing how much more of Herbert's... There are
other influences in here too, but how much of Herbert is in here with the wrestling with a God.
(33:48):
You have the hardness of the doll's plastic chest. I mean, that's a more maybe Anne Sexton or Soviet
Platt type of wrestling reference, but it's still like, why are you so hard? And the meat that shows
up in the poem, love Herbert, that I correlate God with me. And then also this kind of the cyclical
(34:10):
nature of bodies and mass graves which become mossy hair, which become mulch and lily and chlorophyll
and cow and leet that we can take in as if the blood of Christ. Although it's quite a bit more
of a Jewish poem in that having to, although all of us have to grapple with how can there be a God
(34:35):
in our world of genocide, the reference to mass graves and the wrestling with God, it seems
very Jewish to me, but the Jews don't know the wrestling with God, of course. And of course,
I think you just mentioned it, the reference to being a writer is at the center of talking to God.
(35:01):
Yeah. I mean, there's always the feeling... I think it's John Stuart Mill who described lyric
poems as being like someone's utterance that you're overhearing and so by implication in a way,
it's a prayer and so a poem give you a prayer. And I like also that yours is a different kind
of grappling than Herbert's because his is feels... I mean, ultimately he refers to all sinners at the
(35:26):
end, but his is mostly focused on his feeling in that relationship and yours reaches out beyond.
And part of that is just the scale of the kinds of images that come through in the poem,
in your poem. And so it's a great pairing. It's a really kind of perfect pairing of poems.
Oh, thank you. Right. Even though Herbert talks about heaven, his world is much more local
(35:52):
and you can feel that in his poem. And it's a world that has a house and an underground and a
flower and nature and even though there's hot and cold and maybe some reference to an Arctic zone,
he's not sitting around watching images of the galaxy on television like we do,
(36:13):
and which you can see kind of creep into my phone. So yeah, another reason Herbert is very
refreshing is that the narrowness of his world, sort of like Dickinson, that in a very narrow world,
we feel incredible breath. I kind of want to appear... I'll link everything I'd mention in
(36:35):
the show notes, but now I kind of want to pair it since you mentioned Dunn and they knew each other
to some extent, I kind of want to include a batter my heart three person God where it's just totally
into the violence and the servile relationship and the, I think as you put it earlier, the S&M
(36:55):
relationship with God. Yeah. I think Herbert may have actually been literally influenced by that
poem of Dunn's in writing this. They shared their work pretty closely. I mean, yeah, they had passed
around work a lot in that time. Even though Dunn was older, it's not like the 25 different poetry
camps we have now. It seems like the poetry camp of that era was a pretty close group from what
(37:23):
I understand. Yeah. They were together at Godloaf and sharing poems. On that note, are you ready
to turn to the silliness? Absolutely. I want your Monty Python comes to America flavor here that you
do. That's a high bar to live up to and I usually go for the low road. But one of your influences,
(37:48):
right? Oh, absolutely. Of course. Of course. So before we get to the game, as always, we have an
ad with high stakes testing in the common core, kids read less and less poetry in school all the
time. So how on earth can we bring poetry to kids? At breakfast. That's how, thanks to the largest
cereal producing companies in the United States, Elanova, the Kellogg Corporation, General Mills,
(38:13):
Malt O'Mille, Nestle, Quaker Oats, and Post Foods. They're putting poetry on their cereal boxes,
so kids get exposure at the breakfast table. They'll fall in love with poems like, Oh Captain,
My Captain Crunch. Do you want your children to be champions and give them some W.H. Auden?
The crowds upon the pavement were fields of harvest Wheaties. Or on a box of Frosted Flakes,
(38:36):
they'll learn Tiger, Tony, Burning Bright. Frosted Flakes are great. Speaking of frost,
if your kids like Robert Frost, they'll love Fire and Ice Crispies and After Apple Jacking.
These, sorry, that may be the worst pun I've ever written. These breakfast companies have left no
idea undiscovered. If you want them to start the day with Lucille Clifton inspired spiritual tone,
(39:00):
give them Blessing the Honey Bunches of Boats. If your kids enjoy Lucky Charms, they can get to know
Wallace Stevens through his Leprechaun, Coopas and Curds. Take your kids to the Quaker Oats
Graveyard in Nantucket to meet Robert Lowell. Your kids will be real cuckoo cool for Cocoa Puffs.
Do they like Froot Loops? I too can Sam Sing America. And they'll love Sylvia Plass Franken
(39:26):
Burying. So if you see Mr. Kililog or General Orwell Mills around, thank them because capitalism is
bringing poetry back to the people. For profit. All right, that's it. That's the ad. Okay,
I think that's your best ad ever. All right, onto a game which I am calling,
Excuse Me While I Kiss This Guy Because We Built This City on Sausage Rolls.
(39:47):
So in this game, I'm going to play you a snippet of the vocal track from a hit song. And you have to
tell me what you think the lyrics are. And you know, as much as you can understand, you don't
have to get them all correct. You're competing with an AI voice to text transcription program.
So I ran these to see how those would translate the lyrics. So you just have to do better than
(40:12):
the AI. Any questions about the game? I think they'll understand it when we get into it.
Okay, well, Lisa Bernstein, are you ready to play Excuse Me While I Kiss This Guy Because
We Built This City on Sausage Rolls? Yes. The first set of lyrics I'm going to play you is
from Pearl Jam's song Even Flow. And it's just a short, I'll pause a few times if you want to
(40:38):
take it in a piecemeal way. But you just have to guess what the lyrics are. And it's just the
vocal track. There's no other music. It's just the vocal track. Okay.
Do you hear that? Something leave it. You know, I kind of have to hear it again.
(40:59):
Okay, can I can do that.
I'm looking through the paper though he doesn't know to read the beginning. And I don't know what
he's saying in the beginning can feel that can leave that. You're very close. There are three
(41:22):
more lines to get through. And then you're you've you've you're already already at well over 80%
of the line, which is I think pretty good. Second line.
Do you want to hear that one again? Yeah.
(41:42):
Oh, gosh. Here we go.
Oh, praying I was on the ladder gonna show the old man a thing.
Close. Very close. I'll go well.
Yeah, this is making me like Pearl Jam a lot more than I ever have. Maybe because the lack
(42:04):
of other instrumentation. That probably helps because he can actually he can sing pretty well.
Lyrics are interesting. Yeah, yeah, the lyrics are are a lot better than I was anticipating. So
that I was anticipating. So two more lines. Oh, feeling understand the weather. Now the
(42:30):
winter's on its way. Or maybe he said understanding the winter now the weather's on its way. I can't
remember. You actually got it right the first time like you've got almost the entire line.
Correct. Which is incredible. Okay. The last last line from Pearl Jam.
(42:57):
Can I hear it again? Yes. Yeah, it's not this one is not what I would call a comprehensible. So.
Oh, ceiling. I doubt he's saying that. Can I stick a bob between all the legal halls of shame?
(43:19):
That is that is better than I did when I tried this. So the AI generator rendered the lyrics as
Layla looking through the paper, though he doesn't know the reader. Although protean out of something
that is never told him anything, kneeling on his hands on whether other winter is on his way,
(43:41):
all feeling few and far between all illegal. How the same you did much better than the AI.
The actual lyrics are kneeling, looking through the paper, though he doesn't know how to read,
which you were very, very close to. Oh, praying now to something that has never showed him anything.
Oh, feeling understands the weather of the winter's on its way, which you got almost word perfect.
(44:07):
And then, oh, ceilings, few and far between all the legal halls of shame. Okay. You know what?
I am noting this song because this sounds like a really cool song to cover in a completely different
style. Yeah, these lyrics. I don't totally understand ceilings, few and far between all
(44:28):
the legal halls of shame, but the lyrics on the whole, I'm a lot more pleased by. All right.
Number two is from the bare naked ladies song one week. And I've chosen as brief a snippet as I can.
So here we go. Gonna make a break and take a break out like a stinkin, they can check out like
vanilla. It's the finest of the flavors. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo
(44:49):
is going to go cause it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. All right. Just initial,
like any words that came through. Play it again, but don't say anything afterward. Okay. Okay.
Gonna make a break and take a break out like a stinkin, they can check out like vanilla. It's
the finest of the flavors. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo is going to go cause
it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. The vertigo, the chalkers, you're going to have to
(45:13):
sign a waiver. I mean, I'd have to hear it right after the line to get it. Wake a bake a shake,
take a, I forgot the rest. That's, that is totally fine. The whole thing. The third one's going to be
harder. But no, no, there is there. It's gonna make a break and take a fake. I'd like a stinkin,
(45:36):
aching shake. I like vanilla. It's the finest of the flavors, which is the first line of that.
That makes any sense. Gotta see the show cause then you'll know the vertigo is going to grow
cause it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. Not a great song, a popular song, but.
Yeah, but pretty, you know, rhythmic, you know, the interesting words in there.
(45:56):
Yes, there is. It does feel a little bit like they, the sound, if you took the language away
in terms of meaning, the sound I kind of like, but the rest of it, not myself a fan of. I do
think you did better than the AI, which going to take a break and take a break. I like to think
(46:17):
and make a check. I like vanilla. It's the finesse of the flavors and to see the sugars and you know,
the vertigo was going to go because it's so dangerous. You'll have to sign a waiver. Okay.
Now the third one, I'm, I'm going to apologize for you in advance. I'm going to play it at its
(46:38):
regular pace and then I'll play a slowed down version and then I'll pause throughout the slowed
down version. This is from the Eminem song rap God. So are you ready? Yes. Okay.
Uh, someone I'm a do-man, I'm a, you assuming I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you.
I'm super human and innovative and I'm in a bubble so that anything you say is because
shaming off of me and it'll be you and devastating more than ever demonstrating how to give a
(46:59):
motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating, never fading. And I know the hit is
a forever waiting for the day to think. Cause yeah, I fell off to be celebrating cause I know the way
to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make elevator music. Well, you know, I'd
had to get it line by line. It's just too much. Yeah, it is way too much. Well, let's see what,
what I can do line by line with it slowed down. So, uh, someone I'm a do-man, I'm a, you assuming
(47:20):
I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you. So what do we human assume I'm even then
what do I got to do to get it through to you? Hey, you know, what's kind of amazing is that
you clocked to the first few words are complete nonsense. It's a summa humma, dooma looma.
You assuming I'm a human, what I gotta do to get it through to you. I'm, I'm really impressed.
(47:43):
You got that. Oh, thank you. Let's go with the next bit. Superhuman, innovative, and I'm in a
bravo. So they, anything you say is because shaming off of me and it'll be you. I can play that again
or in shorter bursts. Yeah, play it again. What I gotta do to get it through to you. I'm superhuman,
innovative, and I'm in a bravo. So they, anything you say is because shaming off of me.
(48:03):
I don't forget the order, but superhuman, what I gotta do to get it through superhuman, innovative,
what do I, what I gotta do to get it through to you. I forgot what else you said. You got,
you got the start of it. It goes on. I'm made of rubber so that anything you say is ricocheting
(48:24):
off of me. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. No, there's, there's no, even slowed down. There's
not much of a way to, to catch it. I'll, it's very hard to do this in short chunks, but I'll try to
make a shorter chunk for you here. Me and this little one, you are devastating more than ever
demonstrating. Devastating more than something demonstrating. Nice. It'll glue to you and I'm
(48:47):
devastating more than ever demonstrating. All right. Okay. Here we go. I don't give a
motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating. Motherfucker, how to give us something
levitating? How to give a motherfucking audience a feeling like it's levitating. A feeling. Oh,
so I heard, I heard that N word in there that he didn't say. No, he did not. Okay. He's, he's
(49:13):
been careful in his career to avoid that, I think. So, all right, let me give you, uh, there are four
more lines. I'll try to give them to you line by line. Never fading. And I know the haters are
forever waiting. Levitating. And I know the haters are forever waiting. Uh, very close. It's never
fading. And I know the haters are forever waiting. So one line, next line. The day that they can say,
(49:36):
I fell off. They'll be celebrating. That's, uh, I'll be celebrating. I forgot the beginning.
Yeah. For the day they're forever waiting for the day they can say, I fell off. They'll be
celebrating. And I'm going to give you the last two lines together because the last line slows down.
I know the way to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make elevator music.
(49:58):
And I know the way to get them motivated is to make them elevating music. You make elevator music.
Fantastic. Cause I know the way to get them motivated. I make elevating music. You make
elevator music. I get occasional words there. I am very impressed. And I know for certain,
and you beat the, uh, the AI. Some of you are someone, I'm a human, but I got to really get it
(50:23):
through to you and superhuman innovative. And I made a promise. I'll take anything you say,
because it's seeing enough of me in the a, we are totally off at this point. You were
devastated more than ever demonstrating how to give a motherfucking note. I guess I feel like
it's levitating, never fading. And I know the head is off. I've been waiting for the day to think of
(50:46):
the NFL up there be celebrating. Cause I know the way to get him motivated. I make elevating music.
You make elevator music. You did fantastically there. I don't think they're feeding AI much
rap diction. No, I don't think so. See, does not mention the NFL in there and the K you know,
(51:11):
the cadence and that appropriated or used, um, phrasing, you know, it's kind of, it's kind of
scary that AI isn't getting any of that. I guess they don't, they don't have rep prompters. Yeah.
Well, they don't, but they do have AI websites where you can generate rap lyrics. You put in,
(51:31):
and you put in a prompt, like a word or a few words, and then it gives you a rap and they are
not good. They just don't have the flavor. No, no, they don't. They don't. That was super fun.
When you told me you were going to give me audio clips, somehow I didn't expect these, but I'm glad.
I think there is no way to expect that. So thank you so much for being here. Is there anything you
(51:54):
would like to say or plug before we go? Oh, well, I have had a great time with you here. Thank you.
And also please check out my new book, God in Her Ruffled Dress. It's come out 34 years after my first
book from Wesleyan University Press, The Transparent Body. And in between as Lisa B, parentheses Lisa
(52:17):
Bernstein, I released seven records and some of them do have a poetic rap element interspersed
with the singing. Yeah. And they are available on Spotify and, well, I know Spotify, probably Apple
Music. I don't use Apple Music. All those platforms. And if you like jazz, I recommend you listen.
(52:39):
Well, thank you so much for being here and thanks to everybody for listening. Have a great day.
Go read some poems, pet some dogs and support striking workers wherever you find them. Bye.
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