July 20, 2023 • 32 mins
In this episode of the TAYLOR METHOD for Pain-Free Living podcast, Dr. Derek and Dr. Hudson dive into what they suspect are the root causes for the infamous and debilitating condition: Costochondritis. Both Doctors explain correlations between Costochondritis and other factors, such as hormone imbalance, lifestyle habits, past traumas and injuries, and more. They speak on some results they have had with Costochondritis and seek to bring hope for those suffering with this condition.
To connect with Dr. Taylor: drderektaylor.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
The patients that have come inthat have been treated
(00:02):
conventionally withcostochondritis have reported to
us that it was very effective.
You know, I want to share withshare with you another finding
that I'm seeing, right, I'm justcalling it a finding. We've had
people that are very fit, thathave costochondritis is they've
been doing sports and workingout rigorously all their life,
and they just develop more scartissue. So Dr. Taylor, you know,
(00:27):
is there hope for thesepatients?
Welcome to the Taylor method forpain free living podcast. My
name is Dr. Hudson Taylor. Andwe have Dr. Derek Taylor on the
show today as well. Today we'regoing to be discussing
three important topics regardingcostochondritis. Right, so
(00:53):
costochondritis, especially ifyou've ever had it or
experienced it is is a veryserious and debilitating
condition. We're going to diveinto a Dr. Derek Taylor. What is
costochondritis?
(01:29):
Well, costochondritis isinflammation of the cartilage
here along the sternum where theribs attached from the thoracic
spine here to the sternum. Andit's usually caused by some type
of trauma to that area, it mightbe somebody there playing a
And it can also come oninsidiously, from just past
sport and a ball or they had animpact here to the chest. I've
accumulated traumas that isadded accumulated in the body.
(01:51):
And either way, those thattrauma there, whether it is a
seen it with patients come tothe office and somebody gave
them a big bear hug. I had thinkof a patient that came in and
macro trauma, meaning like aninjury that has occurred from
the past, from a sports injury,or some other incident, or micro
they had an adjustment that wasa little bit too forceful.
trauma, that's something that'sjust occurred to the activities
of daily living over time, thisthis area becomes very inflamed,
and it's very painful anddebilitating the pain to not
(02:13):
just be here in the chest. Butit can also radiate to the back
and along the ribs and along thesides and the flank. So it's
it's pretty painful condition.
Yeah, so going back to you know,what exactly it is. You
mentioned a couple of wordshere, like the sternum, the
cartilage in the ribs. So, youknow, if you look at this model
(02:36):
here, and you see the, you'relooking at, or you have
someone's chest, right? Whatexactly is becoming inflamed or,
or painful? Yeah, well, it'sright there, right where the
ribs attached onto the sternum.
So, so here, it's attached tothe cartilage and the cartilage
attached to the ribs. And sothose areas and through there,
(02:58):
it can be right where yourfinger is right there, or where
it attaches onto the sternum.
Okay, or anywhere along the paincan be felt anywhere, though,
but it's usually like gonna be ainflammation and those areas in
the front chest. So you have soyou have the ribs here that run
(03:19):
along, and then it starts tobecome cartilage, right? Yes.
And then that cartilage attachesto the sternum. Right? the
breastbone or the the middle ofthe chest. So, you're saying
that sometimes the patient canhave pain, where the where the
rib bone attaches to thebeginning of the cartilage here,
and times they can have painalong that and then even where
(03:41):
the cartilage attaches to thesternum. That's true. Okay,
yeah, it can be long anywhere.
There's anywhere where the ribsfrom where it's mostly going to
be in the front, but we've seenit refer and radiate pain up to
the side, where the flanks are,where even where the rib is,
apart from the cartilage.
And also that grows around theback because in between those
(04:03):
ribs there, you have intercostalmuscles that can develop scar
tissue andbe an exacerbating condition to
costochondritis. Okay, guys, soin between the rib muscles,
there's, there's muscles right?
In between those correctintercostal muscles. So those
(04:24):
are called inter in between theribs costal muscles, right? So,
um, so those areas can becomepainful as well. Right? Correct.
It seems like patients who havethis condition like it can
become so painful that sometimesthey go to the emergency room
right. Have you seen that?
Right? Yeah, they think they'rehaving a heart attack.
(04:48):
It's on the left side of thebody. Yeah, can mimic can be so
painful and so sharp and, and itsince it's affecting the ribs,
and it's affecting thoseintercostal muscles, it can
affect their breathing, it canaffect their, you know, it can
mimic symptoms of a heartattack. And so they're scared.
So they'll go to the emergencyroom. And that's where they're
(05:11):
often first diagnosed. Becausethey'll run a bunch of a battery
of tests, and they'll determinenow this is not coming from your
heart, your heart looks good.
This is we are going to look atthis as costochondritis. And so
but the challenging part forthat is
(05:31):
the treatments, we've thepatients that have come in that
have had been that have beentreated conventionally with
costochondritis have reported tous that it was very ineffective,
whether it's steroid injections,or or medications that they're
given.
There's really no othertreatment that they give,
(05:52):
because,you know, it's a very delicate
area. And it's prettycomplicated, it can be pretty
complicated. Andone of the biggest reasons why
it's not resolved is becauseit's just, it's that those
areas, they're laden withscarred adhesive scar tissue,
that has not been addressed ordiscovered, that's causing those
(06:12):
imbalances in pain. And so theycan get all the injections they
want, and they can get take allthe medications they want. But
until you address that scartissue and relieve that and
alleviate it.
That's not going to resolve.
Yeah, so yeah, so I'm sorry. Goahead. So, so there's right off
the bat, there's, there's three,three tissues that are involved
(06:37):
in the inflammation.
costochondritis, right. Sothere's the there's the rib bone
itself, that can be inflamed,there's the cartilage itself,
the breastbone, right, so thebones and cartilage, and then
even the muscles in between,right. All right, so the right
tenant right off the bat,there's multiple things that are
involved here. Which is why, youknow, when when, when they
(06:59):
retrieved at the emergency room,it can, that's why it probably
can be tough to pinpoint theexact right treatment, because
it's already a complex issueright off the bat, right. And
then you're using cartilage andbone, you're also talking about
the joint where the bones andthe cartilage meet in the joint,
little dead junction there wherethose two meet cartilage and
bone that is often inflamed andproblematic, but that's usually
(07:24):
secondary to the scar tissuethat is in those areas. So, you
know, before we dive into scartissue, a lot of times to have
you seen patients who havecostochondritis will also start
to develop shoulder pain, oreven elbow pain or neck pain,
back pain, it is it seems tospread, right. It's all well.
(07:46):
Not sure if that's if it that'sspreading or if that is what is
a contributing factor that ledto the costochondritis in the
first place. Okay. Okay. Sooftentimes, when we have people
come in, and costochondritis,one of the first places we're
working is actually the backmuscles in the back. Because
everything's connected andeverything, every part of the
(08:09):
body influences the other partsof the body. And so you have
dyskinesia and the scapulathere, you have a scapula that's
not working properly, it's notmoving properly, and you have 21
different muscles that connectto that scapula that that
shoulderbone there. And if that is not
functioning properly, that'sgoing to be pulling on those
(08:30):
tissues and those structures inthe front contributing a lot to
the costochondritis. And sooftentimes, okay, we're doing a
lot of work to the Para spinalsrhomboids, or the rotator cuff
muscles, although they're in theback, as well as the neck and
shoulder, you know, I had apatient who he's in his 20s now,
but when he was in middleschool, he got he was his
(08:52):
friends and, you know, him wereall were monkeying around in the
locker room and one of hisfriends pulled the shoulder too
hard, and the shoulderdislocated, and then he got the
shoulder relocated, but thenafter that, he started to
develop pain in the ribs and itled to chronic costochondritis
that he had for years. So itactually the pace
(09:15):
costochondritis all began aftera shoulder injury. Right. And
then you mentioned that also theback is involved, the shoulder
blade that goes along theribcage is involved the neck,
etc. So, you know, like you saidsometimes costochondritis the
pain in the chest can come fromareas that are that are totally
that are next to the chest butnot necessarily right right on
(09:37):
it like shoulder to back fixright. And so you have this this
dysfunctional joints there,whether it's the shoulder or the
neck or the back or thethe front chest area, and this
areas, they're not remediated,they're not resolved. And it
just perpetuates a lot of timesthey
(10:00):
They'll tell people when they goto the emergency room, oh, this
thing should resolve in a weekor two. We've seen people with
costochondritis for years.
Cause root cause number one, youmentioned
old injuries and traumas thatcan even be outside of the
chest, shoulder traumas shoulderblade traumas, back traumas, you
(10:23):
know, accidents, falls, slipsand falls, right? That's root,
that's one of the root causes inold trauma that may not seem to
be related, but it is it is. Andthen number two, you mentioned,
what's something called adhesivescar tissue, right? So what what
it is what's really what exactlyis that? And and how does that
(10:45):
cause inflammation of theribcage and the cartilage? Well,
adhesive scar tissue is yourmuscles and it the soft tissues
are formed with like, fibersthat align up parallel to each
other, and you'll have a trauma,and they'll separate and the
body sends blood to that area,that's what causes inflammation,
(11:06):
but within that blood, you havelittle cells called fibroblasts,
that just those fibers areseparated. So these fibroblasts
come in and just lay out allthis collagen everywhere to and
fibrous tissue to, to men that,that that tissue, and then what
happens instead of realigning,like this, it is just going to
be a conglomeration of tissue.
And it's like,that area, that tissues becomes
(11:31):
less elastic, it pulls on thesurrounding joints that it's
connected to, and that tissuebeing shortened causes the
dysfunction and the lack of thatbody and ability, the ability to
work properly. And so that willperpetuate inflammation in those
areas and, and cause pain. Soyou got to break that up. So
(11:54):
it's like a tangled up would nothave just tissue fibrous tissue.
It's like a Yeah, it's like it'slike, you know, yeah, it's like,
you know, your muscles should belike filet mignon. This is like
becomes like chuck steak. Okay,this is like a $6.99 and pound.
It's just like, it's fibrous,just like gristle. And all of
(12:16):
that creates a lot ofimbalances. And you have to
address that area, you have tocorrect that. We've seen people
there's, they've purchased likethe back that so many of the
patients that go on that pod,they buy the back pod, and
they're laying on that, but I'venever seen that resolved.
(12:38):
Somebody's causing a dryness,maybe it maybe it's been helping
some people and yeah, no,definitely to see us. But I
doubt you know, they're layingon that to try to open that up.
And whether it's exercises,you're laying on a back pod or
injections, if you're notadjusting the scar tissue.
It's not going to resolve theproblem. And you know, quick
(13:00):
we're gonna on the backboard.
Know, it seems like there'salways been some sort of relief
or improvement, maybe yes, maybenot. Right? It's kind of helped
it, but it's not going to helpsomeone if the root cause of
their costochondritis is comingfrom, you know, a shoulder,
right, or really deep, deeplyembedded scar tissue in the
ribcage that that a massage ballor a foam roller or a back pod
(13:22):
can't necessarily get to becauseit's so deep, right? Right.
Yeah, well, back pod is notdesigned to break up scar
tissue. It's just designed totake pressure off, right? So
open up that open up that area.
And it's because it's like thisand it's pulling. And so but
it's it's all the patients thathave have come to see me that
(13:48):
have gotten it they none of themhave ever told me that it
it brought even brought any typeof relief. So but I you know,
that's that I'm just speakingfrom what patients have told me
that have come to see us maybethere's some that have benefited
from that, but none that we'veseen. Right? So you have the old
(14:11):
injury and the old accident thatwas never addressed the scar
tissue that tangled up Chucksick, can can happen and then
that scar tissue can start topull, pull in, throw up, pull on
other areas like the chest thatcan start to cause a stream of
inflammation. Right, that cancreep into the chest right it
all it's all interconnected.
Yeah. And the talent, why? Whyis prolonged twos because all
(14:34):
your all the breathing musclesare attached to that. So you're
constantly breathing, right?
You're inhaling exhaling. Youhave lungs, lung tissue
underneath that. And so thatkind of perpetuates the issue
and their breathing becomes moreshallow. Yeah, which affects the
(14:55):
rhythm of their breath and, andso it can be pretty
get complicated by the timepeople come to get in and see
us.
And Dr. Taylor, you know, youthink about the intercostal
nerves are the little nervesthat come out of the spine,
right? Those those nerves wrapall the way around, and they go
into the chest too, right?
Right. Yeah. And those nervesget trapped in that scar tissue
(15:17):
trapped. Yeah, it's thosesubcutaneous nerves, they get
trapped in that scar tissue,just like in a mesh. And they're
constantly irritated. They'reconstantly there's, there's
constant interference, whichcreates issues for them. And
this isa big problem for patients. So
(15:38):
another another root cause isthe nerve entrapment from the
scar tissue, the nerves that aregetting squashed by the by the
tissue, right? You know, I wantto share with share with you
another finding that I'm seeing,right, I'm just calling it a
finding. It's a finding thatI've seen over and over in
patients with costochondritis.
(16:00):
And I noticed this, a lot of themale clients who have
costochondritis also have, I'veseen this called gynecomastia,
right, which is, which is theformation of like, breast
tissue, almost like in the inthe males? Were the, the areas.
Now.
I've noticed that over and overagain. And it's just I couldn't
(16:23):
help but but tie the twotogether. Right? What's let me
ask you, what is that, thatgynecomastia or the the breast
formation? And then in the male?
What's that a sign of? Well,there's a lot of different
reasons for them. But one of themost common ones is just
estrogen dominance. Estrogendominance, yeah, their estrogen
dominant, they're eating foodsthat have been laden with
(16:46):
hormones, known as child'smouth, and cheese, or hormones
injected in the US, you know,conventional beef and chicken.
And these hormones are designedto
make the animal fatter, so theyget more meat, and they can be
(17:07):
more profitable, but those arepassed on into the, into our as
humans, and then it'll createestrogen dominance. And so with
that estrogen hormone increase,you'll see breasts start to
develop with male and then thatadditional weight on the chest
also pulls on those red muscles.
And so one of the signs ofestrogen dominance is that men
(17:32):
will have these men and women,they'll have those little,
little red dots on their chest,are there different parts of
their body, these little reddots are a sign that they're in
estrogen dominance. And sothat that creates an issue for
(17:53):
them. And their their hormonesare out of balance. And yeah,
that's a really good observationthat you've made. I've really
never thought of that. So thatour balance, thank you this. So
that hormone imbalance in themales looks like the
gynecomastia, but then also, howis the quality of their muscles?
Right? Yeah. And there's tissue,right? Like, how is it? Is it
(18:15):
normal? Or is it easily moreinflamed? Right? I think what
would you say? I think it'sgoing to be a little in a little
bit in a weakened state, andthey're going to it's going to
be insincere and moresusceptible for tears and more
susceptible for problems, andjust the inflammation that just
does not go away. Right. I mean,it's all that's a really good
observation that you made. Ireally never thought of that. So
(18:37):
that was our balance. Thank you.
So that hormone imbalance in themales looks like the
gynecomastia, but then also, howis the quality of their muscles?
Right? Yeah. And their tissue,right? Like, how is it? Is it
normal? Or is it easily moreinflamed? Right, I think what
(18:58):
would you say? I think it'sgoing to be a little a little
bit of in a weakened state, andthey're going to it's going to
be in safer and more susceptiblefor tears and more susceptible
for problems in just theinflammation that just does not
go away. Right. I mean, it's allit's all all works together, the
healthier summer, the poor orthe health of someone that comes
(19:19):
in, and if they havecostochondritis, the longer and
the more prolonged it becomes,get on the con on the flip side
of that you have we've hadpeople that are very fit that
have costochondritis and thatfitness is their bodies very fit
and they take good care ofthemselves. Challenging part
with those people is they'vebeen doing sports and working
(19:42):
out rigorously all their lifeand they just develop more scar
tissue because they're workingout their scar tissue is is
developed when they're nearbreaking down muscle this so
they're working out that's oneway of breaking down muscle and
developing scars on the musclegrows and gets larger. So they
start toThey've been they have a
lifestyle of fitness and workingout for decades. And then this
(20:03):
is just they never get any scartissue work, whether that's
being maintained or looked at orkept at check. And so now they
have some type of trauma, orsome type of incident that sets
them off. And they can't get outof that. That storm. Yeah, yeah.
So So in those cases, what wouldyou say that, that the cause of
(20:25):
their costochondritis isprimarily it's more of a scar
tissue physical aspect, wherethey're healthy, they're fit,
they're eating well, but youknow, they just got a lot of
unresolved tension that justbuilds absolutely sure. But then
what happens when you have aperson that, you know, you know,
just more of a normal personthat doesn't train a lot, and
(20:46):
they're just, you know, maybethey play video games a lot, or,
or they have a desk job, right?
They don't exercise all thetime, but then, you know, they
get their chest bumped. And nextthing, you know, they have
costochondritis for the next twoyears, right? Well, everything
they're doing is in front,right. So their shoulders are
rolled forward, everythingtightens up. And they're, you
(21:07):
know, they're doing this all daylong. And so everything's gets
tightened them now. And theythey create a bump. Now this
hot, that tissue has alreadyshortened, or national rate scar
tissue in there, now you justshortened it even more. So it's
like adding fuel to the fire ispouring, like gasoline on broke
the camel's back. Right. Right.
And then then they're constantlythey still stay in that state,
and then they can't get out ofthat there. So
(21:32):
yeah, it's it can. And this is,this is another factor.
Here's another thing I noticedtoo, with some of the feet more
female, the female patients,three patients that are female
recently, one of themjust just got pregnant, right?
She just got pregnant, she wasalso eating a lot of soy, too.
And soy, the second onestarted after the her cost of
(21:57):
Android has started.
And, and it just so happenedthat she just started doing soy
protein shakes for the past twoweeks. Right, that I had another
lady where, you know, she worksat our work at Starbucks eating
a lot of foods from fromStarbucks, that she chose that
(22:18):
were just not healthy. And thenalso, you know, I'm sure a lot
of those foods were were lacedwith a lot of those inflammatory
compounds and chemicals. So, youknow, soy is a major driver of
like toxic estrogen levels,right? A lot of soy is
genetically modified. Right? Allright. So that's just a common
thing that we know, they'venoticed that just goes back to
(22:41):
just inflammatory foods ingeneral, you know, like, whether
it's gluten or dairy or sugar orsomething processed, that food
if their body is sensitive toit, that's going to create even
more inflammation at the jointlevel, or in those areas and
exacerbate the problem. Sodiving into the treatment aspect
of costochondritis. I would Iwant to ask you a question here.
(23:06):
I want to I also want to saythat, look, you have to if
there's any of those componentsin your, in your lifestyle, with
the food in the diet, the thethe inflammatory things like
soy, sugar, dairy, gluten, etc,you have to consider making a
significant change to your diet,in conjunction with any
treatments that you get, right?
You're gonna get better resultslike that. You may you may not
(23:29):
have to, right, but you're gonnaget better results if you start
cleaning that stuff up. Right,right. And I wanted to ask you,
you know, what's, what's aproper treatment for
costochondritis? Well, yougotta, first you gotta identify
where the imbalances are inlooking primarily a lot at that
(23:50):
adhesive scar tissue. And so weuse our tailor method evaluation
to figure out exactly where thatis and where it's coming from.
And we start to go after it asfar as breaking up the scar
tissue using various forms ofmodalities and
technology to break it up. Andwhen you do that, you can see
(24:16):
instantaneous improvement andrelief, even from the first
visit and is in, you know, theyfinally have a sense a ray of
hope. But what happens is, itfeels good when they're out to
visit. But when they leave, thenthe pain comes back to a degree
(24:37):
not as bad, but it's still therebecause there's layers of
adhesions. Later, this is taken,you know, the compensation
patterns that have developedover time have gotten ingrained
in the body which has made itmore ingrained in there to and
more difficult to relieve thescar tissue. And the other thing
(24:57):
is people that come to see usthat have a cost of control.
as if they had come when they,when they first started
experiencing the pain,you could cut down the treatment
frequency and and time relievingit in half,
we often see people that havecome,
they've been waiting for weeks,months, years.
(25:23):
And at this point is become socomplex that it takes time to,
to resolve we've seencostochondritis resolved,
anywhere between six to 36visits are even more, sometimes
it's less mmm, you can if theyget catch it early enough, and
it's not as complicated. You canresolve it in a visit or two,
(25:44):
but everybody's different,right. And every Monday comes
with a different degree of,of stressors that have been
affecting the body and, and youjust have to go after that. And
once at seats of scar tissue hasbeen addressed, you also need to
get the joints aligned withadjustments. But you have to be
(26:04):
really careful when you'readjusting costochondritis
because one wrong move, you canexacerbate it and make it worse.
So and this is what I this iswhat can happen if somebody has
they have costochondritis andthey get adjusted an area and
it's too forceful or it's thewrong wrong level or the wrong
(26:25):
specificity and reducing thatsubluxation. We've seen things
get exacerbated with that. Soyou have to, you have to treat
that very carefully. And youhave to be really specific on
where you're adjusting not justin the spine, but in the
clavicle, the shoulders,the back the neck, you have to
look at the whole the body as awhole. How many times people
they're having that pain in thechest, but a lot of the
(26:50):
costochondritis issue has beenhas been coming from scar tissue
just in the very back. But yeah,in how many times doc killer I
mean, we're both chiropractors,how many times have you seen
patients who've gotten adjusted,adjusted, but and it made it
worse or just didn't get better?
Right? Well, or just what mayhave caused it in the first
(27:12):
place if it was in the firstplace too much force. And so and
then there's, you combine thatwith, you know, people holding a
lot of their emotional andmental tension and stress in
that chest area, you combinethat with an adjustment the
wrong time, or in the wrong way,and that can perpetuate and
(27:33):
exacerbate the area? For sure.
So Dr. Taylor, you know, isthere a hope for these patients
is all Absolutely, yes. Yeah,we've seen incredible results,
andtremendous relief and resolution
with people that have been ableto knock out the scar tissue and
(27:57):
get down to the whole bottomlayer the scar tissue and
getting everything corrected.
And then you start working withthem with exercises that are
going to be specific. And somepeople say, hey, what exercise
can you give me, we, you know,there's one good exercise that
we recommend for general sensewhere you're lying on your back
and you're doing this lying inyour it's on our, our YouTube
video for costochondritis, youjust put that in, there's a
(28:20):
good, there's a good video thatshows you how to do that. But
because it's opening everythingup. But really, you have to do
an exercise program that'scustom made, because it depends
on where the scar tissue isthat's causing the problem that
you need to address andstrengthening those areas that
are weak and right, I think outthe areas that are tight and
(28:43):
problematic. So you have to bereally specific, there's not one
catch all, just do theseexercises, and that'll resolve
it. Right. Right. Right. Sofigure out the unique problem
what's going on for that uniqueperson and then get to get get
on the right treatment plan thatis specially designed just for
you and what's going on withyou. And then also just looking
(29:05):
at their diet. I mean, they'reeating inflammatory foods, you
have to do some testing to findout which foods are creating the
inflammation in that area andthese need to start getting off
of that and if they start to dothat,
you know, we've seen for peoplethat continue in all of the
(29:26):
recommendations and get all thecare that they need. We've seen
up to over a 90% success ratewith resolving and everybody
even from the first treatmentI've never had somebody that
didn't respond at least positivepositively the first time I've
you know, no, yeah, they they'reexcited and they feel they feel
(29:46):
the difference. Yeah, it makes abig difference. Darren Taylor
you know, you put up a reallygood video on YouTube with a
with a really good explanationof this as well. Did you create
a video did you create a videorecently with Cost of Goods
right? Yes, I did. I wouldencourage you to go to die.
Dr. Derek Taylor DC subscribe toour YouTube page. Watch Dr.
Derek Taylor's video on hisexplanation, some tips that you
(30:08):
can even try at home. No,because we're getting messages
from people in differentcountries, right? Different
states. So you may be able tocome to the offices, but our
tailors in Florida, I'm inTorrance, right. But subscribe
to the YouTube page, watch Dr.
Joe's video on that. And thenwatch the testimonial on one of
the most severe cases we've everseen of costochondritis and how
(30:28):
he got better, and then watchthe example of the treatment.
That's that's done until you canyou can see that on YouTube. And
that may help you. Yeah, so wehave a if you're on the East
Coast, and we have our office inPalm Beach Gardens, Florida, if
you're on the West Coast,Torrance, California, and, you
know, just, we're here. I mean,there's we, we we've,
(30:57):
it's it's such a uniqueconditions, why we're talking
about it, but I, I have yet tofind something that that is more
effective for reducing theeffects of costochondritis. And
breaking up that he says scartissue, specifically where those
issues are, and have you haveyou come across anything? That's
(31:22):
no, you know, factor for that.
Right. And then just justgetting just working on getting
that inflammation out of there.
Right. So, anyway, Dr. DougTaylor, any closing thoughts at
all before we sign off here?
Just there's hope. There's autopeople they come in, they're at
their wit's end, some peoplehave been.
(31:44):
It's been extremely debilitatingand depressing for them
suffering with this without anyanswers, but there is hope and
it can be resolved. That'sabsolutely, absolutely. Well,
thank you, Doc Taylor, for yourtime. Thank you so much,
everyone for listening. Wereally hope this this
information helps you out. Anddon't hesitate to reach out for
(32:05):
additional. Just just helpduring this time. So thank you
very much. This is Dr. HudsonTaylor and Dr. Derek Taylor.
Signing off. Have a great day.
The patients that have come inthat have been treated
(00:02):
conventionally withcostochondritis have reported to
us that it was very effective.
You know, I want to share withshare with you another finding
that I'm seeing, right, I'm justcalling it a finding. We've had
people that are very fit, thathave costochondritis is they've
been doing sports and workingout rigorously all their life,
and they just develop more scartissue. So Dr. Taylor, you know,
(00:27):
is there hope for thesepatients?
Welcome to the Taylor method forpain free living podcast. My
name is Dr. Hudson Taylor. Andwe have Dr. Derek Taylor on the
show today as well. Today we'regoing to be discussing
three important topics regardingcostochondritis. Right, so
(00:53):
costochondritis, especially ifyou've ever had it or
experienced it is is a veryserious and debilitating
condition. We're going to diveinto a Dr. Derek Taylor. What is
costochondritis?
(01:29):
Well, costochondritis isinflammation of the cartilage
here along the sternum where theribs attached from the thoracic
spine here to the sternum. Andit's usually caused by some type
of trauma to that area, it mightbe somebody there playing a
And it can also come oninsidiously, from just past
sport and a ball or they had animpact here to the chest. I've
accumulated traumas that isadded accumulated in the body.
(01:51):
And either way, those thattrauma there, whether it is a
seen it with patients come tothe office and somebody gave
them a big bear hug. I had thinkof a patient that came in and
macro trauma, meaning like aninjury that has occurred from
the past, from a sports injury,or some other incident, or micro
they had an adjustment that wasa little bit too forceful.
trauma, that's something that'sjust occurred to the activities
of daily living over time, thisthis area becomes very inflamed,
and it's very painful anddebilitating the pain to not
(02:13):
just be here in the chest. Butit can also radiate to the back
and along the ribs and along thesides and the flank. So it's
it's pretty painful condition.
Yeah, so going back to you know,what exactly it is. You
mentioned a couple of wordshere, like the sternum, the
cartilage in the ribs. So, youknow, if you look at this model
(02:36):
here, and you see the, you'relooking at, or you have
someone's chest, right? Whatexactly is becoming inflamed or,
or painful? Yeah, well, it'sright there, right where the
ribs attached onto the sternum.
So, so here, it's attached tothe cartilage and the cartilage
attached to the ribs. And sothose areas and through there,
(02:58):
it can be right where yourfinger is right there, or where
it attaches onto the sternum.
Okay, or anywhere along the paincan be felt anywhere, though,
but it's usually like gonna be ainflammation and those areas in
the front chest. So you have soyou have the ribs here that run
(03:19):
along, and then it starts tobecome cartilage, right? Yes.
And then that cartilage attachesto the sternum. Right? the
breastbone or the the middle ofthe chest. So, you're saying
that sometimes the patient canhave pain, where the where the
rib bone attaches to thebeginning of the cartilage here,
and times they can have painalong that and then even where
(03:41):
the cartilage attaches to thesternum. That's true. Okay,
yeah, it can be long anywhere.
There's anywhere where the ribsfrom where it's mostly going to
be in the front, but we've seenit refer and radiate pain up to
the side, where the flanks are,where even where the rib is,
apart from the cartilage.
And also that grows around theback because in between those
(04:03):
ribs there, you have intercostalmuscles that can develop scar
tissue andbe an exacerbating condition to
costochondritis. Okay, guys, soin between the rib muscles,
there's, there's muscles right?
In between those correctintercostal muscles. So those
(04:24):
are called inter in between theribs costal muscles, right? So,
um, so those areas can becomepainful as well. Right? Correct.
It seems like patients who havethis condition like it can
become so painful that sometimesthey go to the emergency room
right. Have you seen that?
Right? Yeah, they think they'rehaving a heart attack.
(04:48):
It's on the left side of thebody. Yeah, can mimic can be so
painful and so sharp and, and itsince it's affecting the ribs,
and it's affecting thoseintercostal muscles, it can
affect their breathing, it canaffect their, you know, it can
mimic symptoms of a heartattack. And so they're scared.
So they'll go to the emergencyroom. And that's where they're
(05:11):
often first diagnosed. Becausethey'll run a bunch of a battery
of tests, and they'll determinenow this is not coming from your
heart, your heart looks good.
This is we are going to look atthis as costochondritis. And so
but the challenging part forthat is
(05:31):
the treatments, we've thepatients that have come in that
have had been that have beentreated conventionally with
costochondritis have reported tous that it was very ineffective,
whether it's steroid injections,or or medications that they're
given.
There's really no othertreatment that they give,
(05:52):
because,you know, it's a very delicate
area. And it's prettycomplicated, it can be pretty
complicated. Andone of the biggest reasons why
it's not resolved is becauseit's just, it's that those
areas, they're laden withscarred adhesive scar tissue,
that has not been addressed ordiscovered, that's causing those
(06:12):
imbalances in pain. And so theycan get all the injections they
want, and they can get take allthe medications they want. But
until you address that scartissue and relieve that and
alleviate it.
That's not going to resolve.
Yeah, so yeah, so I'm sorry. Goahead. So, so there's right off
the bat, there's, there's three,three tissues that are involved
(06:37):
in the inflammation.
costochondritis, right. Sothere's the there's the rib bone
itself, that can be inflamed,there's the cartilage itself,
the breastbone, right, so thebones and cartilage, and then
even the muscles in between,right. All right, so the right
tenant right off the bat,there's multiple things that are
involved here. Which is why, youknow, when when, when they
(06:59):
retrieved at the emergency room,it can, that's why it probably
can be tough to pinpoint theexact right treatment, because
it's already a complex issueright off the bat, right. And
then you're using cartilage andbone, you're also talking about
the joint where the bones andthe cartilage meet in the joint,
little dead junction there wherethose two meet cartilage and
bone that is often inflamed andproblematic, but that's usually
(07:24):
secondary to the scar tissuethat is in those areas. So, you
know, before we dive into scartissue, a lot of times to have
you seen patients who havecostochondritis will also start
to develop shoulder pain, oreven elbow pain or neck pain,
back pain, it is it seems tospread, right. It's all well.
(07:46):
Not sure if that's if it that'sspreading or if that is what is
a contributing factor that ledto the costochondritis in the
first place. Okay. Okay. Sooftentimes, when we have people
come in, and costochondritis,one of the first places we're
working is actually the backmuscles in the back. Because
everything's connected andeverything, every part of the
(08:09):
body influences the other partsof the body. And so you have
dyskinesia and the scapulathere, you have a scapula that's
not working properly, it's notmoving properly, and you have 21
different muscles that connectto that scapula that that
shoulderbone there. And if that is not
functioning properly, that'sgoing to be pulling on those
(08:30):
tissues and those structures inthe front contributing a lot to
the costochondritis. And sooftentimes, okay, we're doing a
lot of work to the Para spinalsrhomboids, or the rotator cuff
muscles, although they're in theback, as well as the neck and
shoulder, you know, I had apatient who he's in his 20s now,
but when he was in middleschool, he got he was his
(08:52):
friends and, you know, him wereall were monkeying around in the
locker room and one of hisfriends pulled the shoulder too
hard, and the shoulderdislocated, and then he got the
shoulder relocated, but thenafter that, he started to
develop pain in the ribs and itled to chronic costochondritis
that he had for years. So itactually the pace
(09:15):
costochondritis all began aftera shoulder injury. Right. And
then you mentioned that also theback is involved, the shoulder
blade that goes along theribcage is involved the neck,
etc. So, you know, like you saidsometimes costochondritis the
pain in the chest can come fromareas that are that are totally
that are next to the chest butnot necessarily right right on
(09:37):
it like shoulder to back fixright. And so you have this this
dysfunctional joints there,whether it's the shoulder or the
neck or the back or thethe front chest area, and this
areas, they're not remediated,they're not resolved. And it
just perpetuates a lot of timesthey
(10:00):
They'll tell people when they goto the emergency room, oh, this
thing should resolve in a weekor two. We've seen people with
costochondritis for years.
Cause root cause number one, youmentioned
old injuries and traumas thatcan even be outside of the
chest, shoulder traumas shoulderblade traumas, back traumas, you
(10:23):
know, accidents, falls, slipsand falls, right? That's root,
that's one of the root causes inold trauma that may not seem to
be related, but it is it is. Andthen number two, you mentioned,
what's something called adhesivescar tissue, right? So what what
it is what's really what exactlyis that? And and how does that
(10:45):
cause inflammation of theribcage and the cartilage? Well,
adhesive scar tissue is yourmuscles and it the soft tissues
are formed with like, fibersthat align up parallel to each
other, and you'll have a trauma,and they'll separate and the
body sends blood to that area,that's what causes inflammation,
(11:06):
but within that blood, you havelittle cells called fibroblasts,
that just those fibers areseparated. So these fibroblasts
come in and just lay out allthis collagen everywhere to and
fibrous tissue to, to men that,that that tissue, and then what
happens instead of realigning,like this, it is just going to
be a conglomeration of tissue.
And it's like,that area, that tissues becomes
(11:31):
less elastic, it pulls on thesurrounding joints that it's
connected to, and that tissuebeing shortened causes the
dysfunction and the lack of thatbody and ability, the ability to
work properly. And so that willperpetuate inflammation in those
areas and, and cause pain. Soyou got to break that up. So
(11:54):
it's like a tangled up would nothave just tissue fibrous tissue.
It's like a Yeah, it's like it'slike, you know, yeah, it's like,
you know, your muscles should belike filet mignon. This is like
becomes like chuck steak. Okay,this is like a $6.99 and pound.
It's just like, it's fibrous,just like gristle. And all of
(12:16):
that creates a lot ofimbalances. And you have to
address that area, you have tocorrect that. We've seen people
there's, they've purchased likethe back that so many of the
patients that go on that pod,they buy the back pod, and
they're laying on that, but I'venever seen that resolved.
(12:38):
Somebody's causing a dryness,maybe it maybe it's been helping
some people and yeah, no,definitely to see us. But I
doubt you know, they're layingon that to try to open that up.
And whether it's exercises,you're laying on a back pod or
injections, if you're notadjusting the scar tissue.
It's not going to resolve theproblem. And you know, quick
(13:00):
we're gonna on the backboard.
Know, it seems like there'salways been some sort of relief
or improvement, maybe yes, maybenot. Right? It's kind of helped
it, but it's not going to helpsomeone if the root cause of
their costochondritis is comingfrom, you know, a shoulder,
right, or really deep, deeplyembedded scar tissue in the
ribcage that that a massage ballor a foam roller or a back pod
(13:22):
can't necessarily get to becauseit's so deep, right? Right.
Yeah, well, back pod is notdesigned to break up scar
tissue. It's just designed totake pressure off, right? So
open up that open up that area.
And it's because it's like thisand it's pulling. And so but
it's it's all the patients thathave have come to see me that
(13:48):
have gotten it they none of themhave ever told me that it
it brought even brought any typeof relief. So but I you know,
that's that I'm just speakingfrom what patients have told me
that have come to see us maybethere's some that have benefited
from that, but none that we'veseen. Right? So you have the old
(14:11):
injury and the old accident thatwas never addressed the scar
tissue that tangled up Chucksick, can can happen and then
that scar tissue can start topull, pull in, throw up, pull on
other areas like the chest thatcan start to cause a stream of
inflammation. Right, that cancreep into the chest right it
all it's all interconnected.
Yeah. And the talent, why? Whyis prolonged twos because all
(14:34):
your all the breathing musclesare attached to that. So you're
constantly breathing, right?
You're inhaling exhaling. Youhave lungs, lung tissue
underneath that. And so thatkind of perpetuates the issue
and their breathing becomes moreshallow. Yeah, which affects the
(14:55):
rhythm of their breath and, andso it can be pretty
get complicated by the timepeople come to get in and see
us.
And Dr. Taylor, you know, youthink about the intercostal
nerves are the little nervesthat come out of the spine,
right? Those those nerves wrapall the way around, and they go
into the chest too, right?
Right. Yeah. And those nervesget trapped in that scar tissue
(15:17):
trapped. Yeah, it's thosesubcutaneous nerves, they get
trapped in that scar tissue,just like in a mesh. And they're
constantly irritated. They'reconstantly there's, there's
constant interference, whichcreates issues for them. And
this isa big problem for patients. So
(15:38):
another another root cause isthe nerve entrapment from the
scar tissue, the nerves that aregetting squashed by the by the
tissue, right? You know, I wantto share with share with you
another finding that I'm seeing,right, I'm just calling it a
finding. It's a finding thatI've seen over and over in
patients with costochondritis.
(16:00):
And I noticed this, a lot of themale clients who have
costochondritis also have, I'veseen this called gynecomastia,
right, which is, which is theformation of like, breast
tissue, almost like in the inthe males? Were the, the areas.
Now.
I've noticed that over and overagain. And it's just I couldn't
(16:23):
help but but tie the twotogether. Right? What's let me
ask you, what is that, thatgynecomastia or the the breast
formation? And then in the male?
What's that a sign of? Well,there's a lot of different
reasons for them. But one of themost common ones is just
estrogen dominance. Estrogendominance, yeah, their estrogen
dominant, they're eating foodsthat have been laden with
(16:46):
hormones, known as child'smouth, and cheese, or hormones
injected in the US, you know,conventional beef and chicken.
And these hormones are designedto
make the animal fatter, so theyget more meat, and they can be
(17:07):
more profitable, but those arepassed on into the, into our as
humans, and then it'll createestrogen dominance. And so with
that estrogen hormone increase,you'll see breasts start to
develop with male and then thatadditional weight on the chest
also pulls on those red muscles.
And so one of the signs ofestrogen dominance is that men
(17:32):
will have these men and women,they'll have those little,
little red dots on their chest,are there different parts of
their body, these little reddots are a sign that they're in
estrogen dominance. And sothat that creates an issue for
(17:53):
them. And their their hormonesare out of balance. And yeah,
that's a really good observationthat you've made. I've really
never thought of that. So thatour balance, thank you this. So
that hormone imbalance in themales looks like the
gynecomastia, but then also, howis the quality of their muscles?
Right? Yeah. And there's tissue,right? Like, how is it? Is it
(18:15):
normal? Or is it easily moreinflamed? Right? I think what
would you say? I think it'sgoing to be a little in a little
bit in a weakened state, andthey're going to it's going to
be insincere and moresusceptible for tears and more
susceptible for problems, andjust the inflammation that just
does not go away. Right. I mean,it's all that's a really good
observation that you made. Ireally never thought of that. So
(18:37):
that was our balance. Thank you.
So that hormone imbalance in themales looks like the
gynecomastia, but then also, howis the quality of their muscles?
Right? Yeah. And their tissue,right? Like, how is it? Is it
normal? Or is it easily moreinflamed? Right, I think what
(18:58):
would you say? I think it'sgoing to be a little a little
bit of in a weakened state, andthey're going to it's going to
be in safer and more susceptiblefor tears and more susceptible
for problems in just theinflammation that just does not
go away. Right. I mean, it's allit's all all works together, the
healthier summer, the poor orthe health of someone that comes
(19:19):
in, and if they havecostochondritis, the longer and
the more prolonged it becomes,get on the con on the flip side
of that you have we've hadpeople that are very fit that
have costochondritis and thatfitness is their bodies very fit
and they take good care ofthemselves. Challenging part
with those people is they'vebeen doing sports and working
(19:42):
out rigorously all their lifeand they just develop more scar
tissue because they're workingout their scar tissue is is
developed when they're nearbreaking down muscle this so
they're working out that's oneway of breaking down muscle and
developing scars on the musclegrows and gets larger. So they
start toThey've been they have a
lifestyle of fitness and workingout for decades. And then this
(20:03):
is just they never get any scartissue work, whether that's
being maintained or looked at orkept at check. And so now they
have some type of trauma, orsome type of incident that sets
them off. And they can't get outof that. That storm. Yeah, yeah.
So So in those cases, what wouldyou say that, that the cause of
(20:25):
their costochondritis isprimarily it's more of a scar
tissue physical aspect, wherethey're healthy, they're fit,
they're eating well, but youknow, they just got a lot of
unresolved tension that justbuilds absolutely sure. But then
what happens when you have aperson that, you know, you know,
just more of a normal personthat doesn't train a lot, and
(20:46):
they're just, you know, maybethey play video games a lot, or,
or they have a desk job, right?
They don't exercise all thetime, but then, you know, they
get their chest bumped. And nextthing, you know, they have
costochondritis for the next twoyears, right? Well, everything
they're doing is in front,right. So their shoulders are
rolled forward, everythingtightens up. And they're, you
(21:07):
know, they're doing this all daylong. And so everything's gets
tightened them now. And theythey create a bump. Now this
hot, that tissue has alreadyshortened, or national rate scar
tissue in there, now you justshortened it even more. So it's
like adding fuel to the fire ispouring, like gasoline on broke
the camel's back. Right. Right.
And then then they're constantlythey still stay in that state,
and then they can't get out ofthat there. So
(21:32):
yeah, it's it can. And this is,this is another factor.
Here's another thing I noticedtoo, with some of the feet more
female, the female patients,three patients that are female
recently, one of themjust just got pregnant, right?
She just got pregnant, she wasalso eating a lot of soy, too.
And soy, the second onestarted after the her cost of
(21:57):
Android has started.
And, and it just so happenedthat she just started doing soy
protein shakes for the past twoweeks. Right, that I had another
lady where, you know, she worksat our work at Starbucks eating
a lot of foods from fromStarbucks, that she chose that
(22:18):
were just not healthy. And thenalso, you know, I'm sure a lot
of those foods were were lacedwith a lot of those inflammatory
compounds and chemicals. So, youknow, soy is a major driver of
like toxic estrogen levels,right? A lot of soy is
genetically modified. Right? Allright. So that's just a common
thing that we know, they'venoticed that just goes back to
(22:41):
just inflammatory foods ingeneral, you know, like, whether
it's gluten or dairy or sugar orsomething processed, that food
if their body is sensitive toit, that's going to create even
more inflammation at the jointlevel, or in those areas and
exacerbate the problem. Sodiving into the treatment aspect
of costochondritis. I would Iwant to ask you a question here.
(23:06):
I want to I also want to saythat, look, you have to if
there's any of those componentsin your, in your lifestyle, with
the food in the diet, the thethe inflammatory things like
soy, sugar, dairy, gluten, etc,you have to consider making a
significant change to your diet,in conjunction with any
treatments that you get, right?
You're gonna get better resultslike that. You may you may not
(23:29):
have to, right, but you're gonnaget better results if you start
cleaning that stuff up. Right,right. And I wanted to ask you,
you know, what's, what's aproper treatment for
costochondritis? Well, yougotta, first you gotta identify
where the imbalances are inlooking primarily a lot at that
(23:50):
adhesive scar tissue. And so weuse our tailor method evaluation
to figure out exactly where thatis and where it's coming from.
And we start to go after it asfar as breaking up the scar
tissue using various forms ofmodalities and
technology to break it up. Andwhen you do that, you can see
(24:16):
instantaneous improvement andrelief, even from the first
visit and is in, you know, theyfinally have a sense a ray of
hope. But what happens is, itfeels good when they're out to
visit. But when they leave, thenthe pain comes back to a degree
(24:37):
not as bad, but it's still therebecause there's layers of
adhesions. Later, this is taken,you know, the compensation
patterns that have developedover time have gotten ingrained
in the body which has made itmore ingrained in there to and
more difficult to relieve thescar tissue. And the other thing
(24:57):
is people that come to see usthat have a cost of control.
as if they had come when they,when they first started
experiencing the pain,you could cut down the treatment
frequency and and time relievingit in half,
we often see people that havecome,
they've been waiting for weeks,months, years.
(25:23):
And at this point is become socomplex that it takes time to,
to resolve we've seencostochondritis resolved,
anywhere between six to 36visits are even more, sometimes
it's less mmm, you can if theyget catch it early enough, and
it's not as complicated. You canresolve it in a visit or two,
(25:44):
but everybody's different,right. And every Monday comes
with a different degree of,of stressors that have been
affecting the body and, and youjust have to go after that. And
once at seats of scar tissue hasbeen addressed, you also need to
get the joints aligned withadjustments. But you have to be
(26:04):
really careful when you'readjusting costochondritis
because one wrong move, you canexacerbate it and make it worse.
So and this is what I this iswhat can happen if somebody has
they have costochondritis andthey get adjusted an area and
it's too forceful or it's thewrong wrong level or the wrong
(26:25):
specificity and reducing thatsubluxation. We've seen things
get exacerbated with that. Soyou have to, you have to treat
that very carefully. And youhave to be really specific on
where you're adjusting not justin the spine, but in the
clavicle, the shoulders,the back the neck, you have to
look at the whole the body as awhole. How many times people
they're having that pain in thechest, but a lot of the
(26:50):
costochondritis issue has beenhas been coming from scar tissue
just in the very back. But yeah,in how many times doc killer I
mean, we're both chiropractors,how many times have you seen
patients who've gotten adjusted,adjusted, but and it made it
worse or just didn't get better?
Right? Well, or just what mayhave caused it in the first
(27:12):
place if it was in the firstplace too much force. And so and
then there's, you combine thatwith, you know, people holding a
lot of their emotional andmental tension and stress in
that chest area, you combinethat with an adjustment the
wrong time, or in the wrong way,and that can perpetuate and
(27:33):
exacerbate the area? For sure.
So Dr. Taylor, you know, isthere a hope for these patients
is all Absolutely, yes. Yeah,we've seen incredible results,
andtremendous relief and resolution
with people that have been ableto knock out the scar tissue and
(27:57):
get down to the whole bottomlayer the scar tissue and
getting everything corrected.
And then you start working withthem with exercises that are
going to be specific. And somepeople say, hey, what exercise
can you give me, we, you know,there's one good exercise that
we recommend for general sensewhere you're lying on your back
and you're doing this lying inyour it's on our, our YouTube
video for costochondritis, youjust put that in, there's a
(28:20):
good, there's a good video thatshows you how to do that. But
because it's opening everythingup. But really, you have to do
an exercise program that'scustom made, because it depends
on where the scar tissue isthat's causing the problem that
you need to address andstrengthening those areas that
are weak and right, I think outthe areas that are tight and
(28:43):
problematic. So you have to bereally specific, there's not one
catch all, just do theseexercises, and that'll resolve
it. Right. Right. Right. Sofigure out the unique problem
what's going on for that uniqueperson and then get to get get
on the right treatment plan thatis specially designed just for
you and what's going on withyou. And then also just looking
(29:05):
at their diet. I mean, they'reeating inflammatory foods, you
have to do some testing to findout which foods are creating the
inflammation in that area andthese need to start getting off
of that and if they start to dothat,
you know, we've seen for peoplethat continue in all of the
(29:26):
recommendations and get all thecare that they need. We've seen
up to over a 90% success ratewith resolving and everybody
even from the first treatmentI've never had somebody that
didn't respond at least positivepositively the first time I've
you know, no, yeah, they they'reexcited and they feel they feel
(29:46):
the difference. Yeah, it makes abig difference. Darren Taylor
you know, you put up a reallygood video on YouTube with a
with a really good explanationof this as well. Did you create
a video did you create a videorecently with Cost of Goods
right? Yes, I did. I wouldencourage you to go to die.
Dr. Derek Taylor DC subscribe toour YouTube page. Watch Dr.
Derek Taylor's video on hisexplanation, some tips that you
(30:08):
can even try at home. No,because we're getting messages
from people in differentcountries, right? Different
states. So you may be able tocome to the offices, but our
tailors in Florida, I'm inTorrance, right. But subscribe
to the YouTube page, watch Dr.
Joe's video on that. And thenwatch the testimonial on one of
the most severe cases we've everseen of costochondritis and how
(30:28):
he got better, and then watchthe example of the treatment.
That's that's done until you canyou can see that on YouTube. And
that may help you. Yeah, so wehave a if you're on the East
Coast, and we have our office inPalm Beach Gardens, Florida, if
you're on the West Coast,Torrance, California, and, you
know, just, we're here. I mean,there's we, we we've,
(30:57):
it's it's such a uniqueconditions, why we're talking
about it, but I, I have yet tofind something that that is more
effective for reducing theeffects of costochondritis. And
breaking up that he says scartissue, specifically where those
issues are, and have you haveyou come across anything? That's
(31:22):
no, you know, factor for that.
Right. And then just justgetting just working on getting
that inflammation out of there.
Right. So, anyway, Dr. DougTaylor, any closing thoughts at
all before we sign off here?
Just there's hope. There's autopeople they come in, they're at
their wit's end, some peoplehave been.
(31:44):
It's been extremely debilitatingand depressing for them
suffering with this without anyanswers, but there is hope and
it can be resolved. That'sabsolutely, absolutely. Well,
thank you, Doc Taylor, for yourtime. Thank you so much,
everyone for listening. Wereally hope this this
information helps you out. Anddon't hesitate to reach out for
(32:05):
additional. Just just helpduring this time. So thank you
very much. This is Dr. HudsonTaylor and Dr. Derek Taylor.
Signing off. Have a great day.
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