Dr. Latrisha Chattin on Building Trust and Breaking Stigmas in Special Education

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In this episode of The Teacher’s Forum, David sits down with Dr. Latrisha Chattin to explore the realities of special education and its impact on students of color. From her personal journey growing up in North Philadelphia (05:09) to her leadership in the field, Dr. Chattin offers deep insight into what special education is (12:18), how students are identified (13:32), and the rights parents have under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA)(25:42).

They discuss key distinctions between Individual Education Plans (IEPs) and 504 plans (31:11), the problem of disproportionality (35:38), and the historical roots of mistrust among families of color (39:30). The episode closes with a focus on student self-advocacy, the challenges facing special ed teachers, and reasons for hope in the field.

Whether you’re a parent, teacher, or school leader, this is an essential conversation about access, stigma, and equity in education.

To contact Dr. Chattin vist her website at https://www.sageeduconsultants.com/ or email her at [e-mail]

Join the Conversation:

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Educators, they may not know exactly what special
education actually means.

SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Yeah.
So I think the place where weneed to start, special education
is a set of services.
It is not a location.
You are not in special ed.
A kid is not SPED.
They can't be a set of services.
When we refer to specialeducation, we were referring to
a whole menu of services thatkids can receive, hours of

(00:25):
service that they would receive,location of the service, those
sort of details.
But one of the things I think isimportant to note that it is not
a location.
And that's important because ifyou think back to the 80s, the
90s, the 70s.

SPEAKER_02 (00:36):
Particularly parents of color are very reluctant
sometimes to get the testingbecause they feel that their
child will be labeled andidentified.
The child was broken.
Particularly for black families,there is a reason for that.
Special education washistorically used as a way to
segregate students of colorafter Brown.
This is how we can continuouslykeep you from integration.

SPEAKER_00 (00:59):
One of the biggest things I struggle with parents
is the idea that their child isless than or broken or a project
that needs to be fixed becausethey need special education
services.
And I say this all the time.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19):
I've seen many students in the best of private
schools have learning issues andchallenges.
It isn't mandated by law, andthe services vary.
Some schools are much, muchbetter at it than others.
That can be a challenge.
Can you speak a little bit aboutthe private school kind of
around them?
What you've seen, thedifferences, because there are

(01:40):
times in my career that I feltthis child would be better in a
public school.

SPEAKER_00 (01:46):
Black folks have not had a very positive experience
with the government doing thingspositively on their behalf.
So you think back to Skeege,Henrietta Lacks, radiation
experiments of the 60s, thebirth control trials of the 50s
and 60s, forced sterilizationsthrough the 70s, and people just
don't trust that the governmenthas their best interests in
mind.

SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
Welcome to the Teachers Forum, the podcast that
amplifies the voices of K 12educators from around the world.
Join us as we engage inthought-provoking discussions
about crucial topics ineducation, from navigating
cultural diversity in classroomsto promoting inclusive teaching
practices.
Our interviews provide valuableinsights from experienced

(02:38):
educators who are shaping thefuture of learning.
Together, we aim to create aspace where innovative ideas and
perspectives merge to shape abrighter and more equitable
future for students andeducators alike.
Get ready to be inspired,informed, and engaged as we
discuss the challenges,innovations, and triumphs within
the education landscape.

(03:00):
I'm your host, David Harris.
So let's embark on thisenlightening journey together
and celebrate the power ofteaching.
Now let's get to today's show.
Hello, everyone, and welcome totoday's episode of the Teachers
Forum, a podcast dedicated togiving educators a voice.

(03:22):
I'm your host, David Harris, andI am thrilled to have Dr.
Lich Teacher chat with us today.
Let's discuss the first of whatI hope will be a meaningful
conversation that's teachingabout special education.
My goal is to help get a deeperunderstanding of what special
education is, how it works, andhow it's colours.

(03:49):
And I know how very important itis that school supports.

(04:23):
I am so very happy to have Dr.
Chat with us today.
Thank you, for being here today.

SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
Absolutely.
Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 (04:38):
So I always ask my guests to begin our show by
giving us a little background ontheir early education, working
their way through university andthe arc of their careers.
Some people oftentimes choose totalk about their home life and
their parents and how thatinfluenced them.
So my question, of course, wouldbe to give us a little bit of
background, answer that questionany way you want to.

(05:00):
And also want to know what ledyou to become an educator and
eventually just focus on specialeducation as well.
Floor is yours.

SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah, I was born and raisedin North Philadelphia, which for
those who are familiar is atraditionally under-resourced,
low socioeconomical area ofPhiladelphia.
But back in the 80s, when I wasgrowing up, it was also just a
place full of love.
It didn't matter if you wereblue-collar, white-collar, had a
job, or a street pharmacist.

(05:29):
I mean, we were a community, welooked out for one another.
And that's what I remember mostabout raising and my rearing was
just that I can go to anyneighbor and get a cup of water,
use their bathroom, get a meal,and they would watch out for me
and we would do the same fortheirs.
In my neighborhood, I had alocal school, which was right
around the corner from me,walking distance.
All my cousins had gone there,the whole neighborhood went

(05:50):
there, and it was great.
But I just by first graderealized that it wasn't serving
me in the sense that I wasgetting what I needed
academically.
And so I spoke to my mom, singleparent.
My father died when I was seven,and he said, you know, I really
don't feel challenged at school.
We're doing the same stuff thatI already know how to do.
And so she went to the schooland they were willing to have me

(06:14):
a first grader attend thirdgrade classes.
And that was all well and good,except that I was already young
for my grade.
I started kindergarten at four.
And so we're talking about beingin a grade with kids who were
two years older than me, missingtime with my age-appropriate
peers and doing things that, youknow, a seven, six-year-old
should be doing.
So the only solution was to thenbe a part of the desegregation

(06:37):
program in Philadelphia, whichbust me from my neighborhood
school.
I literally had to walk to myneighborhood school where all my
friends were going to school andthen get on a school bus and
travel two hours to a school ina predominantly white
neighborhood, which was deemedbetter and more academically
rigorous.
And I did that from third gradeto eighth grade.
Now, I'm not gonna lie, I reallydid get challenged there.

(06:58):
The school had way moreresources.
I was in talented program, I wasin the district band, had so
many experiences that made mewho I am today.
However, it was not lost on methat I was the only kid from the
neighborhood who wasn't havingthose school experiences with my
neighbors.
And to this day, when my friendstalk about people growing up, I

(07:19):
have no idea who they're talkingabout or events that happened.
I didn't know because I wasn't apart of that culture.
And so that experience reallymade me take a vow that no kid
should have to leave theirneighborhood to get an
appropriate and rigorouseducation that fits their needs.
Why should you have to be busedtwo hours one way, getting on
the bus at 6 a.m.
and getting off the bus at 5p.m.

(07:40):
just so that you can have yourneeds met at school?
And then when I became an eighthgrade, I had a school counselor.
We had school choice back then,and you were allowed to apply to
whatever high schools you wantedto.
And my school counselor decidedthat I did not fit the
qualifications to apply to themagnet schools or the college
prep schools.
So he didn't send my materials.

(08:01):
And I didn't know he didn't sendthem until everyone was getting
their letters back sayingwhether or not they had gotten
in their acceptance letters, andI didn't get anything, not a
denial or an acceptance.
And so that's when I found outthat he did not submit my
materials.
And so at the last minute, wescrambled.
I had a tutor at church whosaid, I heard about this
competition you're doing forscholarships at this private
school.
You should apply.

(08:21):
And I took the test.
And out of 200 students, I wasone of four to receive a full
scholarship to the William PennCharter School in Philadelphia.
And so that began my entry intoindependent schools.
Fast forward, I then go to thisrandom school in Iowa, Grinnell
College, I knew nothing about,but it's one of the top schools

(08:41):
in the country.
But I didn't know, right?
And it's in Iowa.
Like, who wants to go to Iowa?
But they had flown us out threetimes as students of color to
really get to know the area, getto know the campus.
And I honestly fell in love withthe small campus and intentional
teaching that was done there.
And so then I came back homeafter school and went to

(09:02):
graduate school and startedworking in nonprofits and
working in suburban schools andcharter schools.
And, you know, my career hastaken me all across the country.
But at the root of it, in theend of the day, I went back to
get my reading specialist degreeand my special education degree
because I was in classroomswhere I was serving students
that I didn't know how to teach,if that makes sense.
I had all this education.

(09:23):
We went through all these yearsof teacher training, but they
don't teach you, even inelementary education, how to
teach reading.
They teach you how to teach themanual, but they don't teach you
how to teach reading.
So I had to go back on my ownand get those certifications.
And so that's really how I gotinto special edits, just
realizing that there are kidswho are in classrooms with
teachers who don't know how toserve them and they are expected

(09:45):
to succeed.

SPEAKER_02 (09:46):
That's interesting.
And when you mentioned Grinnell,I laughed because, of course,
you're coming from Philadelphia.
I was in Chicago and in theMidwest, it's well known it was
always a popular place forstudents to attend, has a very
good reputation.
So when I saw Grinnell, I said,Oh, how does Philadelphia girl
get out of there?

SPEAKER_00 (10:02):
Don't worry, I asked myself the same question.

SPEAKER_02 (10:06):
Good, but it also shows the you know, at that
time, the intention of some ofthose institutions of attracting
students of color.
Of course, we could have a wholeconversation about what's
happening now.
But that is how you got thereand open up doors for you in
many ways.
So one of the things I wanted totalk about is some of the
terminology as we get into itbecause I want to be correct.

(10:27):
Uh terms, you know, when I wasgrowing up, I'm sure even you're
younger than me, but the termswere not not yet, right?
I know educators in my ownfamily use the term the person
with flow, right?
Now when you think about it,it's probably the person with
special ed or had particularissues.
So some of the terminology Iwanted to make sure we define
neurodivergent.

(10:48):
Where does that come from?
Because it seems I've beenteaching 31 years.
That is a more recent term.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
What does that actually mean?
And do we apply that generallyto all students in special ed?
Or how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Yeah, no, it is typically not broadly used to
describe all kids who arereceiving special education
services.
Neurodivergent really means thatyour brain doesn't act typically
as your peers.
And so what we're typicallyreferring to in the systems are
kids with anxiety, ADHD, kidswho are on the autism spectrum.

(11:23):
Even those terms have changedrecently.
We no longer have ADD, it's justall ADHD, and you either have
attentive or inattentive type.
And now we say kids are on theautism spectrum because it's a
whole variety of things that gointo being diagnosed.
So you're not autistic or haveAsperger's now.
You're on the spectrum, you'resomewhere on the spectrum.

(11:44):
So neurodivergency really justmeans that kids they literally
think differently than what wewould expect a typical child of
that age in that developmentalframe to how they would behave
or how they would interact withothers.

SPEAKER_02 (11:59):
Okay.
And I probably should havestarted with the definition of
special.
Let's do that now and let'sdefine what that actually means.
Because I think maybe for ourlisteners who are not educators,
they may not know exactly whatspecial education actually
means.
So Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:18):
So I think the place where we need to start, special
education is a set of services.
It is not a location.
You are not in special ed.
A kid is not SPED.
They can't be a set of services.
When we refer to specialeducation, we were referring to
a whole menu of services thatkids can receive, hours of
service that they would receive,location of the service, those

(12:40):
sort of details.
But one of the things I think isimportant to note that it is not
a location.
And that's important because ifyou think back to the 80s, the
90s, the 70s, kids who werereceiving special education
services were literally placedin a room in the basement in a
dark corner, never to be seenagain.
And so that's where I think alot of us have our framework of
it's a place.
But it is not.

(13:01):
It's a set of services thatreally benefits a number of
students, even some of thosethat we don't think of.

SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
I like that idea, the concept of is services, not
necessarily the location.
And that comes from, you know,the 19th century when, like you
said, kids were locked away forwhatever reason or just called
something was wrong with them.
They were disciplined becausethey couldn't read and so forth.
So we have evolved on that.
So I think the next would be howdo we identify students who

(13:30):
might be in special ed?

SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
Yeah, so the process now is pretty clear thanks to
IDEA, which is the Individualswith Disability Education Act.
And that falls under the federaljurisdiction.
But it's pretty simple in thatschools are supposed to be using
multi-tiered systems of support,which is shortened to MTSS.
But really, what that means isit's a process of intervention

(13:53):
services.
There are three tiers.
The first tier is generaleducation.
Everyone is in tier one.
Tier two needs a little moresupport, and tier three needs
extensive strategic supportbefore we enter what some people
add a fourth tier, which isspecial education.
Students who are receiving thoseservices.
And so ideally, you want to bein a school where students are

(14:16):
receiving increasedinterventions as teachers are
going through the child findprocess, which is the process of
identifying does a student haveneeds that aren't being served
or met in a general educationclassroom?
Are they having difficultiesdoing things that their
typically developing peers areable to do?
And if so, then we slowly andincrementally increase those

(14:39):
interventions.
Generally in the six to eightweek periods, we're collecting
data and then we're looking atthat data and deciding on
whether the intervention iseffective or not effective, and
if we need to continue withinterventions or if we need to
go ahead and push that studentto the next tier.
So once a student works throughall three of those tiers,
they're usually recommended fora special education evaluation.

(15:00):
And that evaluation does have atime frame, thanks to IDEA.
And so schools really have about60 days to get those kids
identified or evaluated, Ishould say, which may result in
identification, and then back tothe table with the parents to
discuss what the findings of theevaluation were.
You know, when we talk aboutspecial education services,
we're talking about kids withautism, deaf blindness,

(15:23):
deafness, developmental delay,which is usually up to age
eight.
It's very general, in which,like we're saying, we see
something's not quite right, butwe don't know what it is yet.
So we're gonna keep an eye onit.
And then after age eight, we'llbe more in a place to say what
it is.
Emotional disturbance, hearingimpairment, intellectual
disability, multipledisabilities, orthopedic

(15:46):
impairment, OHI, other healthimpairment, which I think is a
big one that mostly impacts ourfamilies of color because it
includes asthma, attentiondeficit, hyperactivity,
diabetes, epilepsy, heartcondition, hemophilia, our
babies that have sickle cell,lead poisoning, leukemia, all
the things that people don'teven take into consideration.

(16:08):
And the reason why these are aconsideration in special is
because they do impact howstudents learn.
So when we're looking at thatand specific learning
disabilities, speech andlanguage, and traumatic brain
injury round out the things thatcould qualify a child for an
IEP, when we're looking at that,we're really looking for a
discrepancy in what our testingsays that students should be

(16:29):
able to do and what that studentis able to do.
And if there is a discrepancy,then we want to go ahead and see
if they would benefit fromspecial education services.

SPEAKER_02 (16:39):
Under the special ed, does it classify students
within special ed to be ofaverage and above average
intelligence?
Or it would it be anyone on thespectrum of?
And I don't like to use the termnot average intelligence or
whatever.
I don't know.
You can help me with the exactterm, but I think you know what
I mean.

SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
Yes.
So in this evaluation, it'sgoing to bring that out.
And the thing I love aboutspecial this evaluation, we
won't just call it specialeducation evaluation because it
is an edge psych evaluation.
It can actually identify kidswho are gifted in one area and
need support in others.
And we call those kids twiceexceptional kids.
So it is possible for you toneed an IEP.

(17:19):
And I've had kids who havequalified for both an IEP and a
gifted IEP because they areexceptional math students, but
they are really struggling withthe science of reading.
And then it depends on whatstate you're in.
This is when we get down tostate level, some states will
allow you to receive services inboth areas, but most states will
require you to choose anidentification, either a typical

(17:42):
special education IEP or giftedIEP due to funding and funding
sources that you can't draw fromtwo pots at the same time.
So it really does cause parentsto have to pick which is most
important for their child,gifted services or special
education services, which seemsa little unfair.
But to your original question,yes, it will point out when a
kid is above average or averagein an area and then other areas

(18:06):
where they have a deficit.
And it gets really specific.
Like it would be things likeyour child is below average in
fluency, meaning that they don'tread at approximate rate that we
would expect a child their ageto read, but they are above
average in making sense out ofnonsense words.

(18:26):
They're phonetics, they can putthat together.
And so it gets really specific.
And as a parent, I reallyrecommend that parents find
people like me, consultants,educators who can break down
those tests for them so thatthey can really see what all
that jargon is about.

SPEAKER_02 (18:41):
Yeah, because even as I'm listening to you and I've
been in education for manyyears, it's like, wow, this is a
lot for I think a parent or eveneducators sometimes to kind of
take in and understand exactlywhat the services are and what
it all encompasses.
Because you said something thatwas really interested, the
gifted IEP.
I'm not sure I even knew therewas one.

(19:02):
Explain that a little bit more.
So what would that look like?
Because when I think of IEP, Ialways think of a kid who is not
reading well, is having troublewith comprehension, maybe
Asperger syndrome or somethinglike that.
And I hadn't really thought thatone could get an IEP for gifted.

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Yeah, I mean, and it depends on the state that you're
in.
Some states call them G IEP,some states have a whole
different terminology for them.
But really, it's a great way tolook at the special education
services continuum, because inreality, we are going from
remediation to enrichment.
And so if you think about thatspectrum as it's not just
serving kids who have a deficitin an area, but it's serving

(19:42):
kids who need some accelerationin an area as well.
Then I think that takes awaysome of the stigma that's on
that train.
Now, the thing about giftededucation is it is not served
under IDEA, which is why mostpeople don't combine those two
things together.
And in some states, there's noteven funding for gifted
education.
It's mandated that you have it,but schools don't get any
additional funding to resourceit.

(20:04):
So that's a whole other podcast.

SPEAKER_02 (20:06):
Exactly.
And then the term giftedoftentimes is thrown around,
right?
And you'll have uh kids testedin kindergarten or whatever.
Now they're in the giftedschool.
And I'm thinking, who who knowsif you're gifted at five years
old?
But you're tracked in aparticular way.
So that term is used and thrownout.
So it's just kind ofinteresting.

(20:27):
How would you define gifted thenunder the umbrella?
What does that actually looklike?

SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
See, that's a whole other area, that's a whole other
area of expertise, but really itmeans that you are above average
intelligence, usually identifiedby a quantitative IQ score, or
that you have talent in an area.
You're a gifted writer, youcould be a gifted musician.
And in a lot of states, and I'velived in quite a few, so I'm

(20:54):
familiar with theirqualifications.
You can qualify for giftedbecause of your musical skills
and not necessarily youracademic IQ.
Which event, depending on howthat state services those kids,
you may be put into giftedreading classes, even though
you're a gifted musician.
So when I was in Georgia, I hadkids who had gotten a gifted
qualification based on socialstudies, but then that tracked

(21:16):
them into the highest math andreading classes, of which they
were not prepared to be inbecause they were gifted in
social.
I'm not really sure still howone is gifted in just social
studies, not research skills,not writing, not analytical
skills, but social studies.
But they got there, and justlike you said, by eighth grade,
they were really struggling tokeep up.

SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
I want to ask this question what do you think are
some of the biggestmisconceptions that you
encounter about specialeducation from teachers,
parents, and even studentsthemselves?

SPEAKER_00 (21:47):
One of the biggest misconceptions I've encountered
is, and I want to start withparents, because parents
struggle.
I'm a parent of two students whohad their own special education
needs.
My son has an IEP for speech andlanguage, he struggles with
receptive and expressivelanguage, which then impacts his
ability to write.

(22:08):
However, he would be considereda gifted math student.
And then my daughter has a fiveof four.
She struggles with anxiety andimpulsivity, but she would be
identified gifted across theboard.
Her vocabulary comprehension isoff the charts.
However, if you can get her tooutput anything, if she can
focus, it'll be a miracle.

(22:30):
So it's, you know, we have kidsbasically on two different
extremes of the spectrum.
But I think one of the biggestthings I struggle with parents,
especially the younger studentsare, is the idea that their
child is less than or broken ora project that needs to be fixed
because they need specialeducation services.

(22:51):
And that to me is just where Iwould like to start with parents
is, and I say this all the timeyour child is not broken.
And just because they receivespecial education services
doesn't mean that they are goingto be fixed.
What it does mean is thatthey're going to have their
needs met in a classroom that ismeant to not frustrate them, but
support them and also help themto be able to achieve.

(23:14):
And I think what I would wantfor teachers to understand about
special education is that, andI've seen this evolve over the
past 15, 20 years, it's an allhands-on approach.
It's the caseworkers' kids.
Those are the special aid kidsin my class.
They sit in the corner andsomeone comes in and works with
those kids, or someone pullsthem out and works with those
kids.
No, we're all responsible forthese kids.

(23:36):
And I've seen in a lot ofschools and states where the
teacher of record for studentsis no longer the case manager,
it is the general educationclassroom teacher.
And I think that's one of thebest moves we've made in terms
of special education because itmakes that teacher of record
have some ownership and onusover that child's education and
not just push them into a cornerto be forgotten about.

(23:57):
Because now your evaluation,your classes, achievement scores
are going to also include thatstudent.
And so now you have to roll upyour sleeves and put some elbow
grease into making sure theyalso have some success this
year.

SPEAKER_02 (24:10):
I'm trying, as I think about these
misconceptions, even being inthe classroom.
And one of the things that comesto mind is well, how do we
overcome them, right?
How do we, you know, educateourselves to, like you said, not
to see our kids as broken orparticularly, and we can segue
into you know, we've beentalking about public schools in

(24:30):
which you have the IDEA and thenyou get an IEP uh of 504, and
it's mandated by law.
Uh in private schools, it's veryinteresting because I think many
of us in the past of privateschools have learning issues and
challenges.
It isn't mandated by law.

(24:51):
And the services uh vary, right?
Some schools are much, muchbetter at it than others.
Uh that can be a challenge.
What you've seen the differencesbecause I, you know, there are
times in my career that I feltuh the child would be better in
a public school, right?

(25:11):
Because they would get theservices that are mandated by
law.
But the parents, and you knowthis, uh don't want anything to
do with the public schoolbecause they feel all of the
other issues that exist.
So, yeah, can you speak a littlebit about what you've seen in
that?
Because I think there is adifference, and yet their kids
are there and they need to beserviced in one way or another.

SPEAKER_00 (25:34):
Right.
And I think the answer to thatquestion, I would start with you
know, what do public schoolsprovide that private schools
aren't able to provide?
And then public school, you haveprocedural safeguards, right?
IDEA promises parents that theyhave the right to be a part of
the IEP team.
You have a right to anevaluation.
If you disagree with thatevaluation, you have the right

(25:54):
to an independent evaluation.
You can go to a privatetherapist or psychologist to do
that evaluation at the school'sexpense if you don't think that
the school properly diagnosedyour child.
You have to be informed of anychanges in your child's
diagnosis, evaluation, services,or placement prior to anything
being changed.
So they can't just pick yourchild up out of one classroom

(26:15):
and move them to another onewithout telling you first.
You have the right to consent orrefuse services.
They can identify your childwith everything under the side
and you can say, thank you forthat information.
We're not going to do anythingwith it.
You have the right toconfidentiality.
You can see your child's recordsat any time, and no one else is
supposed to see your child'srecords unless they are directly
involved in that child'seducation.

(26:35):
So just because they teach onthe fourth grade team and your
child's in fourth grade, they'renot supposed to know anything
about your child unless theyactually teach that child
something.
In public school, you have theright to due process.
So if you dispute anything, youcan go to court, you can have a
mediator, and that's at theschool's expense as well.
Public school requires fake,free and appropriate education.

(26:55):
And so anything your child needsto be successful in school, the
school is supposed to provide itat no additional cost.
If they need a headphone with amic in order to speech the text,
their papers, then the schoolhas to provide that headphone.
My daughter needed, because ofher occupational needs, she
needed a mouse.
She couldn't use the trackpad onthe laptop.
They had to provide a mouse anda keyboard for her to be

(27:17):
successful at school.
A few more, least restrictiveenvironment, they have to make
sure your child is in aclassroom or a setting that is
the least restrictive, meaningjust because my child has ADHD
does not mean you get to putthem in the class for kids who
have behavioral issues.
That it may not be theappropriate setting for my
child.
And then timely services,everything has a timeline.

(27:39):
You can't drag this out forschool year.
You can't drag this out for even30 days.
Everything has a timeline.
And then the most important oneis that you have the right to
have everything presented inyour home language.
So the school has to find aninterpreter to hold meetings, to
translate documents, and theystill have to do it within that
timeline.
Whereas in private schools, noneof that applies.

(28:01):
Like literally, private schoolsdon't have to do a thing.
However, they do have theopportunity to interact with
home district that the privateschool is in.
So even if the kid is traveling40 miles to come to your private
school, they would receiveservices from the district that
the school is located in.
And most schools do a serviceplan where the public school

(28:23):
district does child fine, andchild fine is just a fancy term
for figuring out if a childneeds more interventions, if
they need more services.
Every school is responsible forproviding some sort of child
fine, which is why you see a lotof private schools that are
doing standardized testing thatthey don't actually use for
anything, or they'll, you know,administer some sort of phonics
evaluation at the beginning ofthe year.

(28:45):
It counts as the child fine.
It counts as something that wedid to see if there's any
discrepancies.
And then the private schools mayoffer a service plan, but they
literally don't have to provideanything.
The services are limited.
The district, if the privateschool allows, can come in and
do speech services, or theymight come in and do
occupational therapy, or theprivate school might allow the

(29:07):
child to leave for part of theday to go receive those services
at their local public school orsomewhere else.
But when parents place theirchildren in private schools,
they're doing it at their ownexpense and they're giving up a
lot of protections under IDEA.
It may be in the child's bestbenefit.
We have schools that areexplicitly designed, private
schools that are explicitlydesigned for special education

(29:30):
and children who need moredistinct services.
But what I found in myexperience is that for the most
part, these private schools,what they're able to offer are
smaller class sizes and morehumans, which tend to make a lot
more of the difference than theservices that are being
provided.
And so I've had conversationswith public school providers who

(29:53):
wanted to reevaluate or renew achild's tuition for our private
school, and they Asked, like,what are you guys doing that we
can't do in public schools?
And my honest to God answer isyou can't provide a classroom
with 10 kids in there and twoteachers.
You can't.
And so that's gonna at the endof the day make all of the
difference.
But when a parent puts theirchild into a specific private

(30:16):
school for special educationservices, they can seek tuition
reimbursement from the schooldistrict due process.
So basically you go and sue yourlocal school district and you
have to prove that the schooldistrict failed to provide fate
and that they didn't provideservices for the child's needs.
And then if they find in yourfavor, then you get at least a

(30:36):
portion of that tuition paid, ifnot all of it, but you'll have
to do it every year.
So it does become a bit of apain because your child could
get that for fifth and sixthgrade, and in seventh grade,
they decide nope, we're notpaying for it.
And then what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 (30:49):
Then it would be an issue.
I think too, in some privateschools, parents are willing to
pay the extra money for extratutoring, for the special
services that might be givenunder an IEP.
I found that to be the case too.
Before I segue into the issuesaround black and brown and
students of color and specialand the 504, what is the

(31:11):
difference between the 504 andthe IEP?
I was reading some stuff and Iwas like, these sound basically
the same, but what exactly isthe difference?
Because I remember you said yourdaughter had a 504.
So what would be different if Isaid, well, my son has an IEP?
What would be the difference?

SPEAKER_00 (31:27):
So man, try to put it in layman terms because often
people feel like the 504 is theconsolation prize for an IEP.
You didn't qualify for an IEP,so here's your 504.
And that's not really what itis.
A 504 one really is for studentswho need accommodations to be
able to engage in a generaleducation setting successfully.

(31:50):
So let's say you have ADHD, butthere is no discrepancy with
your academics.
You may be completely gifted,but you can't sit still.
And you need to be able to walkaround every 20 minutes, you
need a break.
You need a wobbly school, andyou need your teachers to
provide notes to you writtenbecause you probably weren't

(32:12):
able to attend to what they weresaying and take notes at the
same time.
So you would get a 504 thatwould have those accommodations
in writing so that you couldparticipate in the academic
portion of your day.
IEP is more that there is adiscrepancy in learning.
And that it gets a little hairywhen you get into OHI because
that has some otherqualifications.

(32:33):
But it really basically issaying there are other things
competing with this diagnosisthat is not allowing the child
to be fully successful in agenetic classroom.
And we need to provide hours ofservice, we need to provide an
occupational therapist, we needto provide very specific things
to help them out.
And so some kids can really besuccessful with just a 504, but

(32:57):
it is not, I can't reiteratethis enough, it is not a
consolation prize.

SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
Okay.
So some of those accommodationsmight be sitting in the front of
the class, it might be extendedtime on testing, those kinds of
things, right?
Because I've seen them under anIEP too.

SPEAKER_00 (33:12):
Yes, yes.
The accommodations could beexactly the same.
And so the difference is not inthe accommodations, it's in the
reason for the accommodations,whether you get an IEP or 504.
Qualify.
I shouldn't say get, it's not aprize.
But I was also going to mentionthat a 504 travels with you
through college and theworkplace, whereas an IEP ends

(33:34):
in 12th grade.
You can't take an IEP to collegewith you.
So a lot of families will in11th and 12th grade start to
transition into that 504, atleast get one written so that
they can hand that over tostudent services at the college
to help their student continueto be successful.

SPEAKER_02 (33:49):
Okay.
Right.
Because you can get some ofthose services in, or many of
those services in college aswell.
And I think a lot of time peopleforget that, but that is.
So, you know, I wanted to let mejust give you a little
background.
I have found in my many years inpublic-private and charter that
when it comes to special edit,particularly parents of color,

(34:11):
uh, are very reluctant sometimesto get the testing because they
feel that their child will belabeled and identified.
And I think like you were kindof said earlier, I've got the
term you use now that it thechild was broken.
And for particularly for blackfamilies, there is a reason for
that, right?
I have been reading thathistorically used to color

(34:36):
after, right?
So it's interesting.
And I also was looking at itdepends on the students of
color.
I heard that students areunderrepresented, whereas
African Americans areover-represented.
And then we, of course, we startabout the language barriers and

(34:57):
so forth that to all of that.
And I know you've done a lot, alot of work on this.
What is your take on why thesediscrepancies continue to exist
in 2025?
Of course we have black morelikely to be identified with
emotional disturbance orintellectual disabilities that

(35:18):
wow, what is actually going on?
I certainly we could be youcould say it's systemic racism,
but that's just one part of it,I'm sure.
But what do you think in yourstudies and everything you've
seen over the years?
And is it getting any better?
But that's the last question Ihave for you.
But anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 (35:36):
Well, I mean, and what you're discussing and
defining is disproportionality.
And disproportionality is reallythe over-representation of
students in a specific class orsubset of special education
services.
And so we've learned that blackstudents are typically
overrepresented in emotionaldisturbance or intellectual
disability.
And it's problematic becausethey receive more restrictive

(35:58):
placements.
The, you know, the harsher youremotional disturbance, or if
you're considered so your IQ isso low that you couldn't
possibly be in a gen edclassroom, then we have to take
you out and put you in aself-contained classroom where
then you do start to see kids,especially as they get older,
with that stigma of being inthat classroom where they stay

(36:20):
with the same teacher all dayand they don't move.
And what that results in is kidsdropping out of school, not
wanting to come to schoolbecause they don't want to deal
with that peer pressure.
Disproportionality usuallyhappens based on a bias and
referrals.
We don't have culturallyresponsive teachers in our
classrooms.
And so you kind of alluded tothis a little while ago with our

(36:40):
English language learners.
If I'm coming into the countryand I'm just acquiring English
skills, no, I'm not gonna beable to write your five-page
paper.
No, I'm not gonna pass thespelling test.
And now you're gonna say that'sbecause I can't.
When really, if you gave it tome in my native language, I
would do just fine.
And so we have that bias inreferrals, the bias and

(37:02):
discipline policies where, andI've seen this firsthand, our
schools are run on a middleclass white value base.
And things that are acceptablefor our students and their home
culture is not acceptable inschools.
And then what happens in schoolsis that we start to criminalize
those behaviors, right?

(37:22):
Kids are wearing hoods in thehallway.
That's disrespectful.
They're gonna be doing somethingwrong.
So, therefore, if you wear ahood, you're gonna be suspended.
You get suspended.
Now you've got an attendanceissue.
Now your parents have got to goto court, and now you're gonna
repeat the grade because youcouldn't come to school because
you were suspended.
And so these are cultural issuesthat just sort of feed that
school to prison pipeline andkids and their parents, because

(37:44):
we have parents who also hadthese interactions with the
school growing up.
And so they are not trusting ofthe school and their intentions.
And then you have it justcontinues the cycle and
perpetuates the cycle.
And so that increases theoverrepresentation of our
students in certain specialeducation categories.
And I've seen firsthand whatmany of our students didn't
belong in.
They were placed in theserestrictive settings.

(38:06):
One, because someone didn't wantto do the labor to find out
whether it was a language issueor whether some their behavior
record was accurate, or had achild just been labeled as a bad
kid in second grade, and everyteacher after that decided they
were a bad kid.
It's a problem.
And it's going to become abigger problem if IDEA goes

(38:26):
away.

SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
So there seems to be, it's interesting because on
the one hand, you've got thisoverrepresentation, particularly
if we're talking about black andbrown kids, or particularly
black children.
And yet, on the other hand, youhave parents who don't want to
have their kids label or get thespecial services.
And so it just doesn't matter.
You don't necessarily want toquite die.

(38:49):
I could get all these parentsbecause I have some upper middle
class, but the upper middleclass white parents.
I don't want to overdo it.
If that kid has gonna get theirkids labeled for that, or any
possible way to help and helpthat kid get those services.
And we don't necessarily maybesee it, let's say, with black
families.
Why is there this differencehere?

(39:11):
Because you've got black parentswho don't really want their kids
labeled, who are resistant togetting the services, and yet we
have an overrepresentation.

SPEAKER_00 (39:19):
I'm just gonna say it's rooted in our experiences
with the government.
And black folks have not had avery positive experience with
the government doing thingspositively on their behalf.
So you think back to Tuskegee,Henrietta Lacks, radiation
experiments of the 60s, thebirth control trials of the 50s
and 60s, forced sterilizationsthrough the 70s, and people just

(39:42):
don't trust that the governmenthas their best interest in mind.
And as you mentioned, back toBrown v.
Board, like they really didn't.
And so we are still living inthis dichotomy of black folks
not trusting the government, nottrusting schools.
And then when you're interactingwith teachers who you can see
have already prejudged yourchild from the time they walked

(40:04):
in the door, haven't providedany real supports for them,
haven't communicated with youprior to this IEP meeting.
And now we're sitting down at atable and you're asking me to
trust your evaluation of mychild.
When I probably had a negativeexperience in school as well,
this is why we have parents whoare so reluctant to have their
children even participate in theidentification process.

(40:27):
But I was on social mediarecently and saw a meme
circulating that it said, youknow, IEPs are not embarrassing.
What's embarrassing is ignoringyour child's needs because of
pride, pressure, or fear ofjudgment.
And I think that that's reallyimportant for us as black and
brown folks to put that at thefront of our mind.
At the end of the day, if yourchild had cancer, you wouldn't
tell the doctor, no, don't treatthem because I don't want them

(40:50):
to be bald.
You would go ahead with thetreatment that they needed and
monitor and adjust as thingswere happening.
And that is my recommendationfor black and brown families
that, you know, listen to whatis being said and then go seek a
second opinion.
And that's why representationmatters.
We've got to get more blackspecial ed teachers, we've got

(41:11):
to get more black principals andteachers in the schools.
And I mean, it shouldn't have tobe this way, but I found from my
experience that families aremore trusting when I say it than
when someone else says it,because at least in their mind
can eliminate that you're notbeing a racist.
So maybe there is some truth andjustification of what you're
saying.
But we, you know, we've got toget more special education

(41:32):
teachers that speak the nativelanguages of our students, and
so that they can be able to talkto parents in the colloquialisms
that they're familiar with, butalso to sort of eliminate what's
cultural versus what isacademic.
And so we just have to increasethat representation, really.

SPEAKER_02 (41:47):
Yeah, that was the my follow-up question was, you
know, how do we rebuild trust?
I don't even think I would usethe word rebuild, how do we gain
trust?
Because I don't necessarily knowif the trust was ever there.
But I think this may be harder,you know, let's say for our
white listeners.
I probably think, you know, I'mnot racist or anything like
that, but there is a difference.
I've seen it myself where I hada spend a number of years ago

(42:10):
and I just told some other one.
It needs to be tested.
That's great.
I finally went on and did it.
Because there was a level oftrust, so we can't overlook that
and how important that is.
Bring something else up, whichis important.
I think that's there is ateacher shortage in general.

(42:32):
There is a real teacher shortageof text of color.
And there is a real teachershortage.

(42:56):
Okay, some changes need to bemade here.
But how do we address that?
I mean, I know that's a bigquestion.
And if I could figure out how wecould do it for the teacher,
well, first thing I'll just say,I know you're gonna agree is
pay.
But I can only imagine thestress it can be in some of
these schools with special edstudents, and then you have a

(43:18):
shortage.
That cannot be a fun gig.

SPEAKER_00 (43:21):
No, it's so complicated because special
education for as much money asit is costing schools,
districts, and governments, it'sstill not enough.
So it's severely underfunded.
And you will find in someunscrupulous places people who
will cut corners withidentifying students properly
because that's gonna cost us toomuch money.

(43:41):
And we don't have that.
Like, how can we say a childneeds this service and that's
gonna cost us$50,000 a year?
Where are we getting that from?
So we're not gonna say they needthat.
We're just gonna write this IEPdifferently.
They'll never admit to that, butthat happened.
And they're alsounder-resourced.
We are losing special educationteachers who were committed,
one, because it's overcrowded.
There's too many kids.

(44:02):
So that goes back to thatover-representation, right?
We're identifying everyone asneeding an evaluation or needing
an IEP instead of putting themproperly through that MTSS
system.
And as we talked about before,you know, if MTSS is done
correctly, you should have 5% ofyour kids needing tier three,
not 95% needing tier three.

(44:23):
If your whole school needs tierthree interventions, then
something's not happening rightat the basic level of
instruction.
And so we need to go back tothat.
And so because these schools areunder resourced, you have too
many kids on a caseload.
We have special ed teachers whoare not only writing the IEPs,
having the meetings withparents, but they're also having
to do the service hours.
And so I worked in a school oncewhere, you know, a teacher had

(44:47):
30 kids on their caseload, andeach one of those kids had 35
hours a week of special edservices.
Well, how is one person supposedto provide all those hours to
those kids?
It doesn't happen.
And if it does, it's becauseyou've grouped them together,
which you can't do depending onhow the IEP is written.
And so the teacher is literallywalking around going, How do I
split myself?

(45:07):
They get frustrated and theywalk away.
Or you have kids who are violentin classes and teachers are
being expected to teachregardless, and they're getting
hurt and they're walking away.
And so, in a lot of ways, theschool's hands are tied because
the IEPs have to be written.
You have to stay in compliance,or you lose your IDEA funding,
or you end up in court, andnobody likes that.
But it's just this cycle ofthings that are impacting one

(45:30):
and impacting the other, andthat's why people are walking
away.
And how they're resolving theseissues, I don't even know if
it's a resolution, but theband-aid is won by bringing a
lot of teachers from outside ofthe country.
So they will literally recruitfrom Jamaica, from China, from
Singapore to bring in teachers,which is great.
Bodies are bodies, diversity islovely, but for some of these

(45:51):
teachers, English is not theirfirst language either.
So now we have kids who haveacademic needs being taught by
people who are learning thelanguage, and we just have a
bigger gap forming than we do agap closing.

SPEAKER_02 (46:04):
And the cultural differences as well.

SPEAKER_00 (46:06):
And the cultural difference, right?
And so, you know, a lot of thosecountries I mentioned, their
educational culture isdifferent.
Kids sit in the seat and theylook forward and they listen to
teachers.
And so you have a kid who's notraising their hand and they're
out of their seat, and theteacher is writing them up,
sending them out, it's startingthe behavior referral process.
And so it just causes more andmore of that overrepresentation

(46:28):
happening.

SPEAKER_02 (46:29):
So we've got teacher shortages, we've got districts
that aren't equipped, we've gotoverrepresentation and all of
that.
What's a parent to do in thatsituation, you know, because it
leads us to that question ofadvocacy.
And I know you work withfamilies as a coach, and you
know, what does advocacy looklike for parents?
And we can also talk because oneof the things that I found and

(46:53):
it's uh been sometimesfrustrating, but I understand
why.
Some of the don't have thatstuff advocated.
I had a couple years ago, I hada scared thing because I have to
I need this upstairs.
I can't take this fine off goingto the I have to have what's on

(47:14):
it.
She didn't let me do anythingthat was not in her interest.
That's rare.
It's very, very rare.
So, you know, that's been thething that I would love to hear.
As I go into the school year,what can I do to help students
self-advocate for themselves?
Tell me what you need from me.
I always say that to all kids.

(47:36):
Please tell me what you need.
And most of them are like, Idon't know what I need.
Aren't you the teacher?
You figure it out.

SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
So I will say that I worked at a school for students
who learn differently.
And that was the number onething that they did better than
any other place was teach kidshow to advocate for themselves.
My own children attended theschool as well.
And I can tell you that they'vewalked away with some of those
skills with the I need a quietplace.

(48:04):
Can I have noise-cancelingheadphones?
Can I have an extra 10 minutesto work on this?
And just being able to say that.
But as a parent, and this is nowthat my children are in a
different school, they'restarting a new school this year.
My job is to go in there beforeschool starts on day one and
have a sit-down with my child'steachers and say, this is who my
child is.

(48:24):
This is where they're going tostruggle.
This is how you can supportthem, and here's how I can
support you because we're ateam.
I think when you go in withblinders on, and you know, my
child is perfect and it's you,and nothing's wrong.
And why aren't you doing?
Why aren't you doing?
Why aren't you doing?
We are setting our children upfor failure because the real
world is not going to acquiesceto all of our kids' needs.

(48:46):
They have to be able to do thatadvocacy piece for themselves.
So back to the school where Iworked, one of the things they
every child graduated with wasbasically a portfolio of their
learning style, when they weretheir best self as a student,
and when they recognized theyneeded help and what that might
look like.
And they were able to presentthat to their ninth grade
teachers and say, you know, hereis what called it a learner

(49:09):
profile.
Here is who I am as a student.
And from all the students orschools that we sent students
to, all of our receivingschools, that is the number one
thing they said was these kidscome in knowing who they are and
what they need, and that helpsus to be able to support them.
So parents have to help teacherswho aren't on that wavelength to

(49:30):
get on that wavelength.
Like, do you want to struggle?
Do you want to go head to headwith this kid all year?
Or can we figure out a plan thatwill help everyone not have as
many gray hairs and the child bemore successful?

SPEAKER_02 (49:43):
Those are some good points.
I have to ask this questionbecause I know we talked about
under-resourced andunderfunding.
So we know that the Departmentof Education is being cut.
I think there were 1,400workers.
I think now there's 600.
And I know some of that funding,not as much as I think we think
comes from the federalgovernment, but does come from

(50:04):
the federal government to helpfund special ed.
But given all that's happeningwith the Department of
Education, the civil rightsenforcements of some of these
laws and dismantling of thatdepartment.
So what particularly do you seehappening in that area?

SPEAKER_00 (50:19):
Actually, most of our funding comes from the
government.
States supply a limited amountof funding.
Of course, they don't have asmuch to give as the federal
government does.
But IDEA funds are criticalbecause with those funds comes a
level of oversight from thefederal government that protects
special education law, thatrequires schools to have data on

(50:41):
student outcomes, discipline,and disproportionality.
Every school has to report theirdiscipline.
How many black kids have yoususpended this year?
How many girls?
How many boys?
How many second languagelearners?
And that is public informationthat you can go and look up as a
citizen and see which schoolsare doing well in those areas
and which schools aren't.
It requires schools to use thosefunds properly.

(51:04):
They're very specific and veryline itemized about what you can
use money on and what you can'tuse it on.
And IDEA also protects thoseparent safeguard procedures.
So it protects parents' rights.
If IDA goes away, I am veryfearful for our United States
citizens who live in states thatare not special education

(51:26):
friendly.
Because now what this means ishow your child gets identified
may change if they getidentified.
How they are supported in theclassroom could change.
A state could decide, you know,we've decided that kids with
dyslexia, they don't need anyadditional support.
They can go back into theclassroom and they just need to
read better.
And you're gonna be stuck withthat.
We can decide that kids withADHD don't have any real issues.

(51:49):
They just are misbehaved.
And so suspend them and get themout of the classrooms and put
them in alternative schools justlike everyone else.
So right now, those onlysafeguards are IDEA.
Without IDEA, there is areduction in funding.
That money goes away from thefederal government unless they
have some other mechanism forproviding it, which means that
some states think of yourLouisiana's.

(52:11):
Like, where are they going toget money to support students
with special education?
So either our state taxes aregonna go up or services for
students with IEPs are gonna godown.
And then it also concerns methat we may have weakened parent
rights.
Like who protects the parents'right to say, to dispute
outcome, to say my child isn'tbeing serviced, to get those

(52:34):
compensatory hours.
Even without IDA parents inprivate school, you will most
likely have no right to havingany services for your child in a
private school.
So I am concerned that, youknow, if the Department of
Education is dismantled, IDEA isnext.
And then we're gonna have a messon our hands.
And I find that the people whoare, like you said earlier, most

(52:57):
likely going to be blamed bythem.
Are those parents who are quickto get their kids an IEP and
quick to have them identify withservices?
And those are gonna be theparents who are gonna be losing
out because as you alreadyrecognize, many of our black and
brown families aren't usingthose services as much anyway.

SPEAKER_02 (53:13):
That is a challenge to get parents to go ahead and
do that.
As we kind of wrap up, this isthe question I'm asking,
depending on the guest variousform of it.
Which is do you think that thecurrent system of education
adequately serves students,particularly students of color,
and we can talk about specialed?
If you think it does not, youthink the system needs some sort

(53:38):
of reform, or does there need tobe a radical approach to how
we're doing things?
I know that's a big question.

SPEAKER_00 (53:46):
It is a big question.
And it's so hard to paint itwith a broad brush, right?
There are school systems thatare doing great.
There are school systems thatare absolutely failing our
students and their communities,and then there are people who
are trying despite the odds.
When everything's set up againstyou as a principal, and I've
been a building principal for 10years, you know, it's hard to

(54:08):
find success when you havefunding threatened to be taken
away because you have childrenfailing the standardized custom
was never meant for them to besuccessful in.
And so, and you have parents whoare, you know, adversarial about
things that are non-essentialwhen we're in here worrying
about whether these babies canread.
And so I think it's hard toanswer that question broadly,

(54:32):
but to sort of speak in generalterms, the last time I felt that
education worked in my lifetimewas when it was more localized
and that the power was given tolocal superintendents and even
building principals to makedecisions for the population of
students that was in theirbuilding.
Because you and I know that youcan have a school at 12th in

(54:56):
Maine, it'd be drasticallydifferent from a school that's
at 20th in Maine.
And so, what do the kids inthose two buildings need?
And how are we empoweringteachers and principals to give
that to those students?
And that's why charter schoolswork because those leaders can
make those changes immediatelyfor the kids that are in their

(55:18):
building without having to gothrough a whole bunch of red
tape, wait three years, changeit for 14 buildings.
It's for this one building.
And I know that seems so simpleand almost naive, but it is one
of the easiest things I think wecan do is to go back and allow
buildings to make the decisionsfor the children in their
building and the staff in theirbuilding that they need to make.

SPEAKER_02 (55:40):
And that makes sense.
And I've read a number ofarticles and books about Finland
and the Finnish system, andthat's what exists.
I mean, there is a lot of localcontrol.
What is good for my school andwho knows better than the people
in that building and theprincipal.
So that's a very, very goodpoint.

SPEAKER_00 (55:56):
Now, I do I would be remiss if I didn't add this
though.
That doesn't mean that I am fortaking away federal oversight.
Because as I mentioned before,we still need someone who's
keeping states accountable forserving our most vulnerable
students.
And we can't have 50 states withthe transient population that we
have doing 50 different things,and there's no thread that's

(56:21):
running between all of them.

SPEAKER_02 (56:23):
And the federal oversight does that.
Yeah.
What gives you hope?

SPEAKER_00 (56:26):
Gives me hope.
Both public and private schools,I have seen over the last 20
years, are stepping up andproviding more.
There was a time in whichprivate schools said we don't
take kids who have specialeducation needs.
They can't come here, findsomewhere else to send them.
And now I'm seeing less and lessof that.
Now, where schools draw the linediffers, but a lot of schools

(56:48):
will be very accommodating to anpoint.
And public schools really, I'vebeen very impressed with as they
are stepping up and acceptingwhat was once considered radical
programming, right?
They're providing OrtonGillingham for students, colored
overlays for students withdyslexia, allowing students to
have accommodations even if theydon't have an IEP or a 504.

(57:08):
Like, what do you need to besuccessful in this classroom?
Let's just do it.
Down the flexible seating,schools that are still doing SEL
initiatives, check in and checkout.
Let me check in with my friendson the way in.
Let's do restorative meetings,let's do circle time.
Those sort of things are givingme hope that we are seeing
students as more than testscore, more than an IEP

(57:30):
diagnosis, but we arerecognizing that in order to
serve students, we have to beable to see all of their needs.
In special education world,we're seeing more push-in and
pull-out services, more timewith your typically developing
peers.
You will see kids who aresomewhere on that autism
spectrum dotted all throughoutthe classroom.

(57:51):
And they don't have to have aspecial 45-minute period where
they're pushed into theirtypically developing classroom.
And then again, like I saidearlier, just it gives me hope
that we are saying that theseare all of our kids.
It's not the special educationcaseworkers' kids, it's not the
resource teacher in a privateschool's kids.
These are all of our students.
What are we all doing to makesure that they're successful?

SPEAKER_02 (58:12):
Thank you for that.
So I have 10 other questions,but we unfortunately we have to
end the interview.
But this has been great andcertainly a good overview of
special ed.
And I learned a lot, so I reallyappreciate you coming on.
Always conclude my interviews byasking guests to tell me about a
teacher who made a significantdifference in their lives.
So I'm anxious to hear who youare gonna name.

SPEAKER_00 (58:36):
Gosh, I have so many.
I mean, every teachercontributed to why I became a
teacher.
Miss Shirley Johnson was aspecial ed teacher in my
elementary school.
I was not in special edwhatsoever.
But a lot of my friends were.
She would allow us to come in,hang out in her classroom, have
lunch with her.
She taught a sign language classduring lunch recess that we

(58:58):
would all come in and dotogether because sign language
was something that everyonecould be successful in.
It didn't matter what your IQwas, right?
And so what she really didbefore it was even popular was
to remove that barrier betweenspecial education and general
education students.
And she was all of our teachers,even though she was literally
just a special educationteacher.

(59:19):
And then in my private schoolworld, John Dover, he was my
biology teacher in ninth gradeat Penn Charter.
And he was also the dean ofstudents for the upper school.
And I know Mr.
Dover, God rest his soul now,but I know he fought battles for
me that I wasn't even aware of.
Went to bat with teachers, madesure my financial aid was
straight.

(59:39):
Even when I graduated, he waslike, Letricia, you have your
license.
And I was like, you know, I'm inPhilly.
We don't do licenses.
And he was like, You will getyour license before you go to
college.
And thanks to John Dover, I gotmy license before I went to
college.
I Mr.
Dover said, I gotta get it.
I gotta get it.
And you know, it was just amatter of having a proper state
ID, having the freedom totravel, but he realized those
little My lucia was gonna helpme have more freedom in the

(01:00:03):
world.
And so, educators, I mean, wedon't give them enough props.
They really do shape ourstudents in ways that parents
cannot.
And I'm so thankful for havingso many great educators in my
corner.

unknown (01:00:14):
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:14):
Well, thank you for that.
Uh, those are some inspiringstories.
I loved hearing about thespecial head teacher who wasn't
your teacher who took everybodyin.
That's a beautiful story.
If people want to get a hold ofyou and learn more about this, I
know you're Sage Consulting.
How can they do that, Latricia?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
So if you are interested, I dohave a website under
construction.sageeded you educonsultants.com.
And if you want to reach out tome, I'm just latrecia at
sageededuconsultants.com.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:46):
Great, great.
And I'll be sure to put that inthe show notes if people want to
continue this conversation orreach out to you.
Thank you again for coming onfor an introduction to a very,
very important topic that Ithink a lot of people need to
know about.
Because as we've been talkingabout, even let's say in terms
of autism, there has been anincrease in the numbers, even

(01:01:06):
though they're thinking it'sperhaps because we're better at
diagnosing it.
But these your children andindividuals who have these
issues, parents are dealing withthis, and it's something that I
don't believe talk about enough.
So thank you so much for comingon and doing the show on this
topic.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:23):
Thank you for allowing the platform.
Like you said, I think it's avery worthwhile conversation to
continue having.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:28):
Great.
Have a good one.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:29):
You too.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:41):
Thank you for listening to the Teachers Forum
Podcast with me, your host,David Harris.
I hope you have enjoyed today'sdiscussion.
You can reach the Teachers Forumon Twitter at the Forum 1993 or
by email to David at theteachersforum.org.
Let me know what you think or ifyou have an idea for a future

(01:02:01):
podcast.
Don't forget to check out allthe links and resources in the
show notes.
That's all for this episode.
To everyone out there, thank youso much for taking the time to
listen.
And to my fellow educators farand wide, remember that to teach
is to make footprints in thesand for an eternity.

(01:02:22):
Peace.