November 17, 2025 • 37 mins
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In this episode of The Teacher’s Forum, David sits down with Dr. Keith Pochick, an ER doctor turned middle school teacher, to explore his remarkable journey from emergency medicine to the classroom at Providence Day School in Charlotte. Dr. Pochick reflects on what pushed him to leave the ER and pursue teaching (01:37), sharing the rewards and challenges of life as an emergency physician (05:24) and how the changing landscape of healthcare shaped his views on equity (08:46). Throughout the conversation, he discusses the role of trust in both patient care and student learning, the inequities he witnessed in healthcare, and why he believes meaningful education reform is urgently needed.
Dr. Pochick discusses the deep inequities he witnessed in healthcare and how those disparities affect patient outcomes (11:49). He also explains why building trust is foundational—both when treating patients and when supporting students (18:50). Later, he opens up about the moment he decided he could no longer continue practicing medicine (25:13) and what it felt like to navigate the transition into teaching (29:46).
David and Dr. Pochick explore the striking common threads between medicine and education (34:57), from human connection to managing anxiety in high-stakes moments. Dr. Pochick then reflects on the ideas behind his book Tickled Soul and the philosophical journey that shaped it (38:08). The conversation turns to the future of education at (41:03), where he considers whether meaningful reform—or outright revolution—is needed to address issues of equity, funding, and student support.
The episode closes with Dr. Pochick honoring the influential teachers who shaped his own life and career (43:28).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
From your perspective, what inequities did
you see in healthcare,particularly in how patients and
providers of color were treated?
And how did those experiencesperhaps shape your understanding
of systemic bias?
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
Interestingly, the folks in who are in healthcare
are much less apt to ask why.
They're the ones that arehigh-fiving me and slap me on
the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah,you did it.
Wow, it's amazing.
Just because they're all toofamiliar with some of the system
itself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
What's the trust factor?
And that's how I am, even as apatient, with whatever the
doctor is.
Can I trust you to be honest,open with me?
And I find that even as ateacher, whether it's a parent
of color or not, can you trustme?
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
I just had a ball, didn't feel like work in the
least, just very relaxedenvironment, and the kids were
all interested, had chosen totake that class.
And that's when I decided maybeI need to look into this a
little further.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
But I'm asking them whether the system of education
that we have right now and theway it's structured can truly be
reformed, or if we need to havesomething new and radical in its
place.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Working in healthcare for 20 years, I think
you get kind of bathed incynicism enough, it starts to
kind of settle in and becomepart of your identity.
So it's been nice for me to beable to kind of wash that away.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Join us as we engage in thought-provoking discussions
about crucial topics ineducation, from navigating
cultural diversity in classroomsto promoting inclusive teaching
practices.
Our interviews provide valuableinsights from experienced
educators who are shaping thefuture of learning.
Together, we aim to create aspace where innovative ideas and
perspectives merge to shape abrighter and more equitable
(01:58):
future for students andeducators alike.
Get ready to be inspired,informed, and engaged as we
discuss the challenges,innovations, and triumphs within
the education landscape.
I'm your host, David Harris, solet's embark on this
enlightening journey togetherand celebrate the power of
teaching.
Now let's get to today's show.
(02:33):
I'm very excited to have with mehere today Dr.
Keith Pochik.
Keith and I work together atProvidence Day School here in
Charlotte, where we've becomenot only colleagues but friends.
Over his time here, he hasopenly shared his experiences
transitioning from a medicaldoctor to a middle school
science teacher.
While we've discussed manythings over the years, I don't
(02:55):
think I've ever explicitly askedhim why he made the decision to
leave medicine.
Now he has written a book, sotoday I've invited him on the
podcast to discuss thistransition into education,
especially at a time when manyare leaving the field.
It's often rare to see someonechange careers from a highly
prestigious field like medicineto join us in the classroom.
(03:18):
A little bit about Keith.
He is a former emergencyphysician who teaches middle
school science.
He hails from Southwest Virginiaand is a graduate of Graham High
School, Virginia Tech, and WakeForest University School of
Medicine.
Keith, thank you so much forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Thank you so much for having me, David.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Great.
I always start each podcast byasking our guests to give me a
little arc of their careers.
Some folks talk a little bitabout their family background,
so you can do that if you wantto share that.
And your early educationaljourney and particularly growing
up there in Virginia.
And then how you went on tomedical school.
So the floor is yours.
And again, thank you for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So I grew up in what I wouldclassify as a middle class
background.
My mom was an elementary schoolteacher who later went on to
become a principal and was ineducation for essentially her
entire professional life.
And my dad worked as a travelingsales representative for a
couple of different companies asI was growing up, but he was on
(04:21):
the road and called on a lot ofreligious grocery stores
throughout our region.
Like I said, was on the road anddriving a lot.
And I went to a what probablymost people would consider a
fairly small high school.
There were about 160 or 170 kidsin my graduating class in 1995.
Probably about half of us wenton to some form of higher
(04:44):
education.
And I was one who did.
My sister and I have a twinsister.
We both went to Virginia Tech,it was a little over an hour
from where we grew up.
And I probably around 10th gradeor so was when I became pretty
certain that I wanted to go intomedicine.
I was always into math andscience.
And I took a biology class in10th grade that was focused on
(05:06):
human anatomy and physiology andjust fell in love with that.
And that's when I decided that Iwas going to pursue medicine
professionally.
And so I just kind of buckleddown and, you know, went at it
as far as those sciencerequirements were concerned.
In college, took the MCAT anddid well enough to get in to
medical school.
And so just kind of wentstraight through from my late
teen years all the way intomedical school and started
(05:28):
residency when I was, let's see,I would have been 26 years old
when I graduated medical schooland started my residency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Can you tell me what actually drew you to study
biology at Virginia Tech?
Was some epiphany, some greatmoment that happened that you
said, I want to be a doctor tosave the world, or what was it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
It's the first time that I had been presented with
that level, that advanced levelof, at least at the time for me,
that advanced level ofphysiology.
And I just think kind of thebeauty of the human body and the
way that it functioned.
I think through earlier stagesof biology, we were more focused
on what was growing in a pond,which was obviously
(06:07):
enlightening.
You have to start somewhere.
But I think that when some ofthose concepts could be put
together and synthesized alittle more highly, I got even
more appreciation for just howcomplex we are and how our body
systems work together.
And I think just it was reallyjust a fascination that I wanted
to keep exploring.
And I felt like I would continuelearning things every day.
And I definitely did and stillam.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Great.
So finished medical school, andI know you spent over a decade
in medicine, leadership rolesand so forth.
What were some of the rewardingmoments of that career?
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Being able to provide some clarity for people
who are upset and anxious and inpain and relief to what's been
troubling them, I think that wasvery validating early on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
Now, Keith, you were in emergency medicine from the
very beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
I was in emergency medicine, so that's what I chose
out of medical school.
When you finish up medicalschool, you'll almost everyone
will pick a residency program tobegin.
And those can be things likefamily medicine or internal
medicine, general surgery,anesthesia, orthopedics.
I loved emergency medicinebecause I felt like that's where
a lot of the thinking and thediagnostic work was done.
When I worked on some of theother services like internal
(07:17):
medicine and general surgery, alot of times the problem had
already been figured out by thetime we got called, you know,
this person has appendicitis.
We need you to fix it.
How did you figure that out?
I was fascinated with theprocess of taking someone who
was describing what was a fairlyvague and not specific case of
having some abdominal pain andfiguring out how exactly to
(07:38):
diagnose it and what the processwas.
And that was a lot of the logicand the thinking and teasing
away signal from noise, I think.
But then, you know, people whocome to the ER are almost always
having one of the worst days oftheir lives.
And when you could providereassurance and you could
provide some comfort and relief,you know, that was definitely
validating and that sustained mefor a number of years.
You know, I was in medicine forreally a total of almost 20
(08:02):
years.
I graduated medical school in2003 and went straight into
residency and did emergencymedicine and worked also for a
few years in the urgent caresetting before I made the
transition into education.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
We've got to get what made you actually leave.
So I know you were talking alittle bit about the rewards,
and I know perhaps spoken, or atleast I've observed, even you
know, in my many years on theearth, that the medical feel has
changed.
When I was coming up, it was,you know, St.
Mary's Hospital, and it wasprivately owned, the Catholic
(08:37):
Church ran it.
If it wasn't that, it was someanother hospital that was
privately owned.
That has changed significantly.
So I'm anxious to hear aboutsome of the challenges, but also
about that.
How has that changed from wherewe now we have like Advocate or
here in North Carolina, Atriumor Novant has the owners?
You don't have like I thinkUptown Charlotte was the
(08:59):
Presbyterian hospital.
So I'm anxious to hear how themedical field has perhaps
changed, which I suspect mayhave led you to leave.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
I think there were definitely changes that happened
over time.
I'm sure I changed over thecourse of those years, but the
job certainly changed quite alot.
And nobody gets to decide theera in which they live and when
they're born, really, even thesituation in which you're born.
But healthcare, U.S.
healthcare really started tomove towards a model of regional
corporate organizations.
(09:29):
Really, probably reading back onit, this is before I was in
medicine, this process wasalready in place.
But it became a system wherevirtually every hospital and
almost every clinic, I won't saywas forced to join that system,
but as economies of scale kindof operate, it was a process
that kind of elbowed outsmaller, more independently run
(09:50):
practices.
And so a lot of hospitals and alot of clinics chose to join
that system.
And I think with that, sure, alot of the administrative burden
is eased of running a smallerprivate hospital or running a
clinic, but you also are givingaway some of the autonomy and
decision making.
And I think that that'ssomething that we certainly felt
over the course of those years.
(10:10):
I started in the ER at ahospital in Kabaras County,
Concord that was independent andit had an incredible staff,
incredible staffing ratios.
It was known as uh a magnethospital for nursing, which was
a high-level designation forexcellence in nursing care.
About a year or so after I hadsigned on there, there was a
merger with Carolinas, whichlater became Atrium, and some
(10:34):
things definitely started tochange.
And so a lot of the staffingratios and things like that were
no longer as supportive as faras the nursing team and clinical
staff was concerned.
And I think that when you worklike I did for a number of years
or months in a system that Ifelt was very well staffed and
that we were empowered toprovide an excellent level of
(10:57):
care.
And then to see that kind oferode almost like a beach over
the years became a bit of adefeating feeling.
And not just for me, I think alot of other clinical workers
felt that.
That was something I think forsure that was dragging me down
to some degree compelled tochange.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
I want to, before we get into the actual change, I
wanted to ask you a little bit,because I find so much is being
talked right now aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion,
how it's being, you know,stamped out all over the place.
And I did, you know,particularly for our listeners,
from your perspective, whatinequities did you see in
healthcare, particularly in howpatients and providers of color
(11:35):
were treated?
And how did those experiencesperhaps shape your understanding
of systemic bias?
Or maybe you'll say there wasn'tany, but I doubt that.
But I'm just interested, andthen we can also kind of
piggyback when we talk a littlebit about education, because I
have a question that's relatedto that.
But I always am fascinated bysome of the articles and things
I read about some of the biasesthat exist.
(11:58):
Right.
So I've heard that black womenin the United States are three
times more likely to die inchildbirth.
And there's all kinds of reasonsfor that.
I oftentimes wonder how much ofit is systemic.
But from your perspective, assomeone who was in the field for
20 years, and I suspect fromwhat you've been talking about
in rather diverse communities,not just around racial or ethnic
lines, but around class lines aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Yeah, I mean, I think that at some point I
realized that I, as a whitemale, wasn't going to be as
questioned as some other fellowcolleagues were.
A biggie was uh women and I wasworking alongside who were also
emergency physicians, and wewere in a completely democratic
group.
People made the same salaries,and so I will say our group was
(12:39):
set up quite equitably when Iwas in emergency medicine, but I
didn't walk into a room andimmediately it was assumed that
I was the nurse, you know, andso and that happened regularly,
especially to some of my youngerfemale colleagues.
I would maybe experience theyou're not old enough to be
doing this, especially early onin my career when I look younger
than I do now.
(13:00):
But that was probably about theextent of it.
And I think that I also wasn'tquestioned or second-guessed to
the degree that, you know, thatsome of my black colleagues were
as they work in medicine.
So there was that kind of burdenweighing on some of my
colleagues that I wasn'texperiencing it, just to
recognize it at least, I thinkmade me hopefully operate a
(13:22):
little bit differently on aday-to-day basis.
And then also to sort of takethe flip side of the coin, I
think that in many instances,and some of this I think is a
perceived education level ofyour patients, of your
clientele, so that if you knowyou were seeing someone who grew
up in a rural area and maybedidn't have a high school
degree, some of this went on aswell.
(13:44):
But just this is operating froma place that removed kind of the
subtlety and the nuance out ofthe case and sort of
oversimplified the problem thatthe patient may be presenting
with, oversimplified thetreatment options and what the
complications could be.
And I think a lot of thisstarted from a place that was
(14:04):
well intentioned, in that I wantto help this person arrive at
what I see as the correctanswer, what I would do if it
were me or if it were my familymember.
I want to help them arrive thereas quickly as we can.
As time stressors start to pileup, maybe that's those behaviors
are are encouraged even more.
But I think that someone'snatural reaction to that when
(14:26):
they feel as if things are beingoversimplified, or maybe they're
not being told the whole story,is to naturally feel a little
distrust and on the part of thepatient.
So when that happens and someonefeels like almost like they're
being sold something, that canset up a bit of a, I don't want
to say antagonistic, but not acompletely collaborative
(14:49):
relationship like it needs tobe.
And so I feel like I'm fairlygood at reading the room, so to
speak.
And I felt like when thingsseemed to be sliding sideways as
far as how I was interactingwith the patient or family, it
was a time where I just what Ineeded to do was just take a
breath, have a seat if I wasn'tsitting already, and be ready to
(15:12):
spend some FaceTime and openmyself up to questions so that
deeper level of trust could beestablished.
And, you know, hopefully I didthat when it needed to be done.
There were probably times when Ididn't do it as well as it
needed to be done.
But I began to understand thatthose situations definitely
weren't one-offs.
These weren't isolatedinstances, that there were
patterns there and how thosethings occurred.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
That's interesting because you bring out that word
trust.
And I see it even withineducation, is that oftentimes
people from marginalizedcommunities, black, brown, have
had negative experiences in theeducational system, within the
medical field, and there is notrust that exists between those
individuals and the institutionsand the people who represent
(15:54):
them.
And so when I was listening toyou, I was like, Yeah, that
comes through.
What's the trust factor, right?
And that's how I am, even as apatient, with whatever the
doctor is.
Can I trust you to be honest,open with me?
And I find that even as ateacher, the parent, whether
it's a parent of color or not,is can you trust me?
Are you going to do right by meand my child?
(16:17):
And I think that's a powerfulthing.
And you know, I'm gonna ask youthis quick question and hadn't
thought about it, but how didyou gain trust when people
didn't have it?
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
I think it's time is just so key at that point.
Just when, especially in theenvironment that we live and
work in now in the modern world,we're spread thin and we're
hurried, and there are all thesetasks that we have on our lists
to perform and accomplish, andyou just want to get to the next
one.
And when someone can just cansit down, can pause for a
(16:50):
second, can look you in the eye,and just put things on as even
of a footing as they canpossibly be, and open up to some
questions and show that you'rewilling to spend the time.
I think that that is the biggestway to establish, or the most
effective way in my mind, toestablish trust.
And it winds up more than payingitself off over the long haul to
just establish that early, takethe time that's necessary to
(17:13):
establish that early.
And then there isn't the degreeof second guessing and worrying
and, you know, and potentiallysetting up, like I said,
something that's not completelycollaborative.
Because if you have a physicianand patient relationship that's
not a hundred percentcollaborative, you know, it's
just so open for so many thingsto go wrong at so many different
(17:35):
times.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
You know, and one of the things too, Keith, is that
you know, I think in medicine orthe health outcomes for folks of
color are generally much lower,as I mentioned earlier.
And in education as well.
Right?
For students of color, theoutcomes, if we're only going to
measure it by test scores, butthere are other measures as
(17:57):
well, are not the same.
And I tend to think a lot of itis again the lack of trust.
But I'm wondering the implicitbias that doctors or teachers
have, the expectations theyhave.
I wonder oftentimes, and I don'tknow if there's any way you can
finitely say this is the reason,but affect that, right?
People's biases affect some ofthe overall outcomes.
(18:20):
And so there's no doubt aboutthat.
Uh-huh.
And did you were you gonna addsomething or no?
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Because I was gonna No, I think and some of that is
it's so difficult.
And you teach US history and youteach also a you know a global
studies course.
In my mind, it's because of theUS's history, it's so difficult
to tease apart race and socialclass because they were so
intertwined and still are for solong.
How could you really even beginto control for some of those
(18:46):
things?
And that's just one of the sadstates of where we are, is that
was kind of baked into thesystem that you know, race was
going to be the predictor ofsocial class.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Right.
But even, and I should beremissive, and you would
probably agree, even when wetalk about class in the
Appalachian Mountains or in WestVirginia or Virginia in the area
that you grew up where peoplewere working class and poor
oftentimes, the health outcomesbecause, especially with this
corporatization of medicine,there are not a lot of hospitals
in these rural areas.
You gotta go from, you know, Ioftentimes think, you know,
(19:17):
we've been talking a lot, haveexperienced cancer in my own
family.
You know, I just think if you'rein some little town in
Appalachia or in Mississippi andyou get cancer, I just like,
wow, where do you have to go toget the most up-to-date, you
know, treatments, thechemotherapy and the radiation,
and you just can see people notdoing it and dying from it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, a couple offamily members who are
navigating some of that stuffright now, and they're in, you
know, it's not a completelyisolated pocket of Virginia, but
they're still having to drive acouple hundred miles for more
specialized care.
And then, like you said, ifthat's something that winds up
requiring more repeat specialtyvisits for things like chemo,
(19:58):
for things like radiation, whata burden and sometimes almost
impossible burden that becomes.
Obviously getting worse asMedicaid funding and things like
that come into question.
So many hospitals in rural areasand underserved areas are
absolutely dependent on that.
So what do we prioritize?
You can tell, I think maybe uhin the questions you sent me
earlier on, the way you tellwhat a country prioritizes is
(20:20):
take a look at its budget.
Uh, where does it spend itsmoney?
And when there are cuts beingmade to education and
healthcare, you know, the poorin rural areas of the country,
whether that's in the innercities or whether that's in, you
know, Appalachia where I grewup, are the ones that are gonna
suffer.
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
So let's get now, let's transition a little bit to
leaving medicine.
I know that had to be a majordecision.
And I'm not gonna lie, when Iremember when you came to
Providence Day, they said thisguy named Keith, he was a
doctor, and now he's gonna beworking subbing, and then I was
like, What?
I said, I gotta meet this guybecause I want to know what in
(20:56):
the world is he doing here, andthat's not to say as somebody
who's taught this will be my32nd year beginning soon, that I
don't have much respect for myprofession, I do, but it was a
surprise.
So now I'm gonna ask thequestion, I've probably been
waiting like three years to askyou.
What pulled you well, first, andmaybe they're two separate
(21:17):
things.
Why did you leave?
And I think I got some inklingof that, so you don't have to
spend a lot of time on that.
And then what made you go intoeducation?
And were there other thingsvying for your attention, right?
You had teaching and maybe acouple other things that you
could have done.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
I'm glad you asked this too.
And this is really the mainreason, really, that book I
think was born was because I wasasked why so often, and it was
just not a very satisfyinganswer to say it's complicated
and it wasn't satisfying for me,and it wasn't satisfying for the
person who was asking.
Interestingly, the folks in whoare in healthcare are much less
apt to ask why.
(21:55):
They're the ones that arehigh-fiving me and slap me on
the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah,you did it.
Wow, it's amazing.
Just because they're all toofamiliar with some of the ills
of the system itself, I thinkthat I discussed earlier.
But people in educationunderstandably want to know more
about why.
But, you know, luckily after 20years in medicine, I was in a
spot that I was fortunate enoughto be able to even entertain
(22:18):
doing something like this.
You know, I had paid my loansoff, you know, financially was
in a pretty good spot.
My wife, God bless her, stillloves her job in pediatrics and
is working about, I think, asmuch as the sort of perfect
Goldilocks amount of how muchshe wants to work in an average
week and is still enjoying that.
And so she's been very steady.
But the things that I think werestarting to wear me down in
(22:41):
medicine, I realized that when Iwas teaching, there were
actually plenty of teachingopportunities that came with
that job.
There were PA students and therewere residents and medical
students and nurse practitionersand things like that who would
work with me.
And then I did a chief residentyear when I was in residency and
gave, you know, was preparingdidactic lectures and
conferences and things likethat.
(23:01):
And those teaching instancesnever really felt like work to
me.
Those were more renewing andinvigorating.
And I think I was able to pullback enough and get a little
wider of an angle of what waswrong and what was right with my
job and with where I wasprofessionally to be able to
say, well, teaching part youreally kind of dig.
(23:22):
Maybe we should explore this alittle further.
And at some point when I wasfeeling, you know, just a little
off-mission and burned out, Ireached out to Amy Jordan in our
upper school science department.
She invited me in to come andhelp dissect on one of their
dissection days.
And I just sat a ball.
Like it didn't feel like work inthe least, just very relaxed
(23:44):
environment.
And the kids were allinterested, had chosen to take
that class.
And that's when I decided, Imean, maybe I need to look into
this a little further.
And so it became a process overa couple of years to make the
transition and to pick up somesubstitute shifts.
And we were in a pretty brutalwave of COVID back, had reached
a point where I had actuallyresigned my administrative role
in urgent care.
(24:05):
And PD told me, hey, look, anyday you want to work, you can
show us how we were just hurtingand reeling from COVID.
People were out for five and 10days at a time.
I became a more committed to it.
And you know, next thing youknow, someone goes out on leave
early and Leaf Tappy asked me ifI wanted to take four seventh
grade science classes.
And I just kind of said tomyself, I'm either going to do
(24:25):
this now or I'm never going todo it.
So I did.
And I've been very grateful thatI've had the chances and
opportunities that I've had.
And I try to look at it that waywhen I go into work every day,
is that this is just this is anopportunity that I got that a
lot of people won't get.
And if I continue to look at itlike that, I'll make more of it.
I'll make the most of the daysthat I'm there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
And the reason I'm asking is certainly for our
listeners in you know, privateschools don't have necessarily
the certification requirementsthat you might have needed if
you wanted to teach in CMS orCharlotte Mecklenburg school
system.
So what kind of support did youhave to have?
What were the challenges?
Because I'm assuming it's like,wow, here I am in front of all
these middle school kids and I'mteaching.
(25:05):
And one thing I've learned overthe years, I tell people that's
one of the things aboutprofessors.
Many of them, I sometimes thinkK through 12 teachers are better
teachers sometimes thanprofessors at a university
because they know the subjectmatter well.
But just because you know asubject matter doesn't mean you
can teach it.
So what were some of thechallenges, the help that you
needed, and may still need asyou do this job, because you're
(25:28):
only three or four years in?
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
That's right.
I'm learning every day.
And you know, that when I firsttook on the seventh grade
science classes, the fourseventh grade science classes,
Doug Burgess treated me like agraduate student, or maybe
someone who wasn't even at thatlevel when he was teaching me
the physics of optics that I wasgoing to need to teach to
seventh graders.
And I hadn't thought about thatin probably 20-some years and
(25:50):
needed to wake it up.
And so I first had to become thestudent, and he was very patient
with me.
And it you people at ProvidenceDay have gone out of their way
over and over and over when Ihave any sort of dilemma,
whether it's something that'sgot to do with discipline,
whether it's something to dowith the parent interaction,
whether it's something to dowith clerical work, because I'm
a product of the analog age andI plod through stuff like a lot
(26:13):
of people do who were born inthe 70s or before.
But people, I could go to two orthree dozen different people at
any point and get advice.
And, you know, people just trulywanted me to succeed, and they
still do.
Bonnie Wright, with who nowheads up our middle school
science department, has beendoing this for 20-some years, I
think, total, maybe more.
(26:34):
And she just has, I mean, shecan run the science lab like
she's an army quartermaster, isjust incredibly organized, can
show me tricks and shortcuts andtips on how to do stuff from a
clerical standpoint.
It's almost like as long as Iwas willing to put in the
effort, people were not going tolet me fail.
That was a good feeling when Irealized that because coming in
(26:55):
as a first-year teacher, theclosest thing I can compare it
to, having been through both, isit's a lot like your intern year
in medicine.
You know, you just come in,you're doing these every month
rotations.
You might be on plastic surgeryfor a month, and then you're on
neurology for a month, and thenyou're on pediatrics, and then
you're doing OBGYN.
You're the least experienced,least knowledgeable person on
(27:16):
the team every time, over andover and over and over.
And it's fairly humbling.
The first year of teaching iskind of like that, and you're
just not really sure coming intoeach day.
This is the first time I've donethis lesson.
I'm not really sure if I'm gonnasink or swim.
I'm gonna toss this boomerangout and hope it comes back.
And you learn a lot that way onwhat's gonna work and what
doesn't work.
And also during a lot of my openperiods, I would go and sit in
(27:40):
on your class, or I would sit inon Wes Shira's class, or go sit
in on Ann Parker's class andjust pick up some strategies,
some things to do when we neededto transition from one activity
to the other.
How can we break something upand allow a little bit of
spontaneity without there beingtotal chaos that you can't
(28:00):
recover from?
And I got to see a lot of thatand you know, a lot of things
that worked and some things thatdidn't work and put them into
action.
So, but it's still, I mean, Ihave so much to learn and I'm in
a better spot because I feellike I'll learn it.
I'm in a place where I can learnit and I'm supported.
And I'm also given just enoughautonomy and freedom to
occasionally just try somethingnew.
And if I follow my face, then welearn from that too.
(28:23):
And the kids see that as well.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
Like they when the kids see,wow, that was a total face plan,
and we were able to shift andrecover, and that's going to
happen to me sometimes.
And a lot of it's how you handleit and how you respond and
bounce back.
So I'm very, very fortunate tobe where I am.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
Let me ask you this are there, or how do you
reconcile the differences andsimilarities between the
communities you serve in bothmedicine and students?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
As far as just because with where we are, we're
in a an independent school thattends to have a population
that's a little more well offand a little more wealthy.
Is that what you mean comparedto where I came from in
medicine?
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Or yeah, the different communities, yeah,
that's part of it.
I think I'm just interesting,and maybe I should phrase it a
little bit differently, maybethinking what are the through
lines that you find in yourcareer in medicine that you find
in education?
Are there through lines?
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
Yeah, I think anxiety is certainly one.
You know, I come from emergencymedicine, and so you know,
everyone who came in there, inaddition to what they had going
on, was also having an anxietyattack.
You know, if you broke your leg,of course you're having an
anxiety attack.
If you can't breathe, of coursethere's anxiety that's sprinkled
in.
And it's the same story, Ithink, just anxiety, and I mean
(29:39):
a different way, obviously, andwith the younger overall patient
population, but people areunsure and uncertain.
And I think that if whatever youcan do to create a culture of
safety is going to paydividends.
So, you know, time spent doingthat, you know, when the kids
know it's okay for me to messup, I can correct this if I need
(29:59):
some extra.
Help, I can advocate for myselfand figure out ways to get it.
And I think you asked in thequestions you sent ahead about
why middle school.
And this kind of leads intothat.
And I think it's just that kidsat this age are now sort of
becoming their adult selves witha little less guidance from
their parents.
You know, most of the parentsare starting to maybe peel away
(30:21):
a little bit by the time thekids are in the middle school
compared to when they were inlower school.
But then also are there's notthe degree of there's not the
same focus or preoccupation ongrades and transcripts.
So the kids are afforded alittle bit of room to try it a
different way.
And if they screw up, then whatdo we need to do to fix it?
And I think that that's a goodplace to be.
(30:42):
And then you also get to see thekids really just develop their
style or mature into their adultselves.
That's really rewarding.
SPEAKER_00 (30:49):
So I know that you've written a book about this
transition and reflects, ofcourse, on your journey from
becoming a doctor to teacher.
It's called Tickled Soul.
Without giving too much away,what do you think, or what do
you hope resonates most witheducators who sit down and read
it?
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
I think that I sure don't want it to be preachy
because I'm still new to this.
So experienced educators inparticular, they know a lot more
about this and the process andthe drawbacks and the joys and
struggles than I do.
So I wouldn't try to turn itinto something that's a you
know, that's preachy.
This is just my experience withit.
(31:24):
And I think what it's allowed meto do is just even though I'm
getting close to 50 years old,that I now am approaching things
with a little more curiosity andoptimism than I had before.
And I think working inhealthcare for 20 years sort of,
I don't know, I think you getkind of bathed in cynicism
enough, it starts to kind ofsettle in and become part of
your identity.
(31:45):
It's been nice for me to be ableto kind of wash that away.
That's a key thing.
And then also the book, becauseI was asked why did you decide
to do this and realized thatthis was such a dramatic and I
don't want to say completelyunique or uncharted, but it
doesn't happen very often forsomeone to make this transition
that I did.
There was some interest there.
And when I went back to exploreit, I was like, well, I kind of
(32:06):
need to understand a little moreabout what my own identity is
and what my own purpose is.
And that started, I realized Ineeded to go back to the very
beginning and what exactly do Ibelieve it's healthy to do that,
I think, for just about anyoneat various stages of their
lives.
But I think in midlife inparticular, it can be quite
enlightening.
SPEAKER_00 (32:25):
Great.
It is very fascinating.
And I would say probably rarethat somebody leaves medicine
and then goes into it.
So it's just a fascinatingthing.
And I'm glad that you sit downand wrote the book.
So now if anybody asks you thatquestion, you just give them the
book.
That's exactly right.
Great.
I do want to ask you thisquestion.
(32:45):
This season, I'm asking all myguests to reflect on whether the
way education is currentlystructured, and of course,
you've only been in it a fewyears, but if you want to weave
in perhaps in medicine, that'sfine too.
But I'm asking them whether thesystem of education that we have
right now and the way it'sstructured can truly be
reformed, or if it is somethingor if we need to have something
(33:09):
new and radical in its place.
So again, from your perspective,drawing on both your short term
in education and your longercareer in medicine, do you think
meaningful change in educationis possible from within, or does
it require somethingfundamentally or radically
different?
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
Boy, I mean, that's such a tough question.
I think that's a lot of us seetrends that are not promising as
far as education is concerned,and that troubles us when you
want to feel like you're leavinga world that's a little better
for your kids and their kids.
So to me, I think we're notgoing to improve it by funding
it less.
And so, you know, policydecisions that affect budget are
(33:47):
huge.
I mean, people shouldn't have towork in medicine for 20 years
before they feel like they canfinancially take a job in
education.
It's got to be a morefinancially robust and viable
option for teachers.
And I think too, just you know,as funding gets cut and class
sizes get bigger and bigger andbigger, and you know, the
classroom becomes more of acrowd control issue as opposed
(34:11):
to a learning environment, whatcan we expect to be getting out
of that?
You can't fix every problem bythrowing money at it, but I
think that it's certainly notgonna get better with funding
that's cut, just put it thatway.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
In the public school system, and of course, you know,
we could probably talk foreverabout you know the inequities in
the system if one lives in anaffluent area, right?
You get a better education.
But that's the same in medicine.
You live in an affluent area,whether you're gonna get a
better health care and betteroutcomes, and that's sadly how
it exists.
(34:42):
Well, great.
My last question always to myguest is can you tell us about a
teacher who made a significantdifference in your life?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
I think my high school math teacher was a guy
named Bob Russell, and he wasprobably in his 60s already by
the time I got to high school.
I had him all four years as Icame through, and I was a good
math student.
But he was about 6'7, and helooked like Lurch from the Adams
family, and would go outside andsmoke pretty much between every
(35:13):
period or so.
Sometimes a little downtimebetween each class, where if you
could craft a good practicaljoke for him, he actually loved
it.
And so, despite the fact he haddone it for so many years, he
came in just with this everyday's a new day and a little
different, and some differentfun things can happen.
And I think that approach wasjust kind of enlightening to see
someone who was at in sort ofthe twilight of their career and
(35:36):
still enjoying it as much as hedid.
That's how I hope I hope mycareer ends.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
Great, great.
Great again having you on thepodcast.
I want you again to say the nameof the book, where they can find
it, and if people want to talkto you or learn on a one-on-one
how they might be able tocontact you.
SPEAKER_01 (35:54):
Sure.
So the book is Tickled Soul, issort of the bit print at the
top, and then underneath that isthe philosophical journey of a
doctor turned middle schoolteacher.
You can get it on the heavyhitter sites like Amazon and
Barnes and Noble and some of theothers you're familiar with.
But the publisher also, if youwant to support a smaller
business, the publisher isWarren Publishing, and you can
order it there as well.
I'm on LinkedIn if anyone wouldlike to connect there.
(36:17):
And then my email address isjust Kpochick, K-P-O-C-H-I-C-K
at gmail.com, and I'm happy toconnect and bat some ideas
around.
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Ray and I'll put all that too in the show notes, and
people can find that book andpick it up.
I've begun reading and it'squite good.
I'm enjoying it.
Thank you.
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Again, Keith, thank you fortaking the time to come on the
Teachers Forum.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
David, thank you so much for having me.
We'll see you again tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Thank you for listening to the Teachers Forum
podcast with me, your host,David Harris.
I hope you have enjoyed today'sdiscussion.
You can reach the Teachers Forumon Twitter at the Forum 1993 or
by email to David at theteachersforum.org.
Let me know what you think or ifyou have an idea for a future
podcast.
(37:16):
Don't forget to check out allthe links and resources in the
show notes.
That's all for this episode.
To everyone out there, thank youso much for taking the time to
listen.
And to my fellow educators farand wide, remember that to teach
is to make footprints in thesand for an eternity.
Peace.
From your perspective, what inequities did
you see in healthcare,particularly in how patients and
providers of color were treated?
And how did those experiencesperhaps shape your understanding
of systemic bias?
SPEAKER_01 (00:12):
Interestingly, the folks in who are in healthcare
are much less apt to ask why.
They're the ones that arehigh-fiving me and slap me on
the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah,you did it.
Wow, it's amazing.
Just because they're all toofamiliar with some of the system
itself.
SPEAKER_00 (00:27):
What's the trust factor?
And that's how I am, even as apatient, with whatever the
doctor is.
Can I trust you to be honest,open with me?
And I find that even as ateacher, whether it's a parent
of color or not, can you trustme?
SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
I just had a ball, didn't feel like work in the
least, just very relaxedenvironment, and the kids were
all interested, had chosen totake that class.
And that's when I decided maybeI need to look into this a
little further.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
But I'm asking them whether the system of education
that we have right now and theway it's structured can truly be
reformed, or if we need to havesomething new and radical in its
place.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Working in healthcare for 20 years, I think
you get kind of bathed incynicism enough, it starts to
kind of settle in and becomepart of your identity.
So it's been nice for me to beable to kind of wash that away.
SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Join us as we engage in thought-provoking discussions
about crucial topics ineducation, from navigating
cultural diversity in classroomsto promoting inclusive teaching
practices.
Our interviews provide valuableinsights from experienced
educators who are shaping thefuture of learning.
Together, we aim to create aspace where innovative ideas and
perspectives merge to shape abrighter and more equitable
(01:58):
future for students andeducators alike.
Get ready to be inspired,informed, and engaged as we
discuss the challenges,innovations, and triumphs within
the education landscape.
I'm your host, David Harris, solet's embark on this
enlightening journey togetherand celebrate the power of
teaching.
Now let's get to today's show.
(02:33):
I'm very excited to have with mehere today Dr.
Keith Pochik.
Keith and I work together atProvidence Day School here in
Charlotte, where we've becomenot only colleagues but friends.
Over his time here, he hasopenly shared his experiences
transitioning from a medicaldoctor to a middle school
science teacher.
While we've discussed manythings over the years, I don't
(02:55):
think I've ever explicitly askedhim why he made the decision to
leave medicine.
Now he has written a book, sotoday I've invited him on the
podcast to discuss thistransition into education,
especially at a time when manyare leaving the field.
It's often rare to see someonechange careers from a highly
prestigious field like medicineto join us in the classroom.
(03:18):
A little bit about Keith.
He is a former emergencyphysician who teaches middle
school science.
He hails from Southwest Virginiaand is a graduate of Graham High
School, Virginia Tech, and WakeForest University School of
Medicine.
Keith, thank you so much forjoining me today.
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Thank you so much for having me, David.
I appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00 (03:38):
Great.
I always start each podcast byasking our guests to give me a
little arc of their careers.
Some folks talk a little bitabout their family background,
so you can do that if you wantto share that.
And your early educationaljourney and particularly growing
up there in Virginia.
And then how you went on tomedical school.
So the floor is yours.
And again, thank you for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So I grew up in what I wouldclassify as a middle class
background.
My mom was an elementary schoolteacher who later went on to
become a principal and was ineducation for essentially her
entire professional life.
And my dad worked as a travelingsales representative for a
couple of different companies asI was growing up, but he was on
(04:21):
the road and called on a lot ofreligious grocery stores
throughout our region.
Like I said, was on the road anddriving a lot.
And I went to a what probablymost people would consider a
fairly small high school.
There were about 160 or 170 kidsin my graduating class in 1995.
Probably about half of us wenton to some form of higher
(04:44):
education.
And I was one who did.
My sister and I have a twinsister.
We both went to Virginia Tech,it was a little over an hour
from where we grew up.
And I probably around 10th gradeor so was when I became pretty
certain that I wanted to go intomedicine.
I was always into math andscience.
And I took a biology class in10th grade that was focused on
(05:06):
human anatomy and physiology andjust fell in love with that.
And that's when I decided that Iwas going to pursue medicine
professionally.
And so I just kind of buckleddown and, you know, went at it
as far as those sciencerequirements were concerned.
In college, took the MCAT anddid well enough to get in to
medical school.
And so just kind of wentstraight through from my late
teen years all the way intomedical school and started
(05:28):
residency when I was, let's see,I would have been 26 years old
when I graduated medical schooland started my residency.
SPEAKER_00 (05:34):
Can you tell me what actually drew you to study
biology at Virginia Tech?
Was some epiphany, some greatmoment that happened that you
said, I want to be a doctor tosave the world, or what was it?
SPEAKER_01 (05:46):
It's the first time that I had been presented with
that level, that advanced levelof, at least at the time for me,
that advanced level ofphysiology.
And I just think kind of thebeauty of the human body and the
way that it functioned.
I think through earlier stagesof biology, we were more focused
on what was growing in a pond,which was obviously
(06:07):
enlightening.
You have to start somewhere.
But I think that when some ofthose concepts could be put
together and synthesized alittle more highly, I got even
more appreciation for just howcomplex we are and how our body
systems work together.
And I think just it was reallyjust a fascination that I wanted
to keep exploring.
And I felt like I would continuelearning things every day.
And I definitely did and stillam.
SPEAKER_00 (06:29):
Great.
So finished medical school, andI know you spent over a decade
in medicine, leadership rolesand so forth.
What were some of the rewardingmoments of that career?
SPEAKER_01 (06:39):
Being able to provide some clarity for people
who are upset and anxious and inpain and relief to what's been
troubling them, I think that wasvery validating early on.
SPEAKER_00 (06:51):
Now, Keith, you were in emergency medicine from the
very beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (06:55):
I was in emergency medicine, so that's what I chose
out of medical school.
When you finish up medicalschool, you'll almost everyone
will pick a residency program tobegin.
And those can be things likefamily medicine or internal
medicine, general surgery,anesthesia, orthopedics.
I loved emergency medicinebecause I felt like that's where
a lot of the thinking and thediagnostic work was done.
When I worked on some of theother services like internal
(07:17):
medicine and general surgery, alot of times the problem had
already been figured out by thetime we got called, you know,
this person has appendicitis.
We need you to fix it.
How did you figure that out?
I was fascinated with theprocess of taking someone who
was describing what was a fairlyvague and not specific case of
having some abdominal pain andfiguring out how exactly to
(07:38):
diagnose it and what the processwas.
And that was a lot of the logicand the thinking and teasing
away signal from noise, I think.
But then, you know, people whocome to the ER are almost always
having one of the worst days oftheir lives.
And when you could providereassurance and you could
provide some comfort and relief,you know, that was definitely
validating and that sustained mefor a number of years.
You know, I was in medicine forreally a total of almost 20
(08:02):
years.
I graduated medical school in2003 and went straight into
residency and did emergencymedicine and worked also for a
few years in the urgent caresetting before I made the
transition into education.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
We've got to get what made you actually leave.
So I know you were talking alittle bit about the rewards,
and I know perhaps spoken, or atleast I've observed, even you
know, in my many years on theearth, that the medical feel has
changed.
When I was coming up, it was,you know, St.
Mary's Hospital, and it wasprivately owned, the Catholic
(08:37):
Church ran it.
If it wasn't that, it was someanother hospital that was
privately owned.
That has changed significantly.
So I'm anxious to hear aboutsome of the challenges, but also
about that.
How has that changed from wherewe now we have like Advocate or
here in North Carolina, Atriumor Novant has the owners?
You don't have like I thinkUptown Charlotte was the
(08:59):
Presbyterian hospital.
So I'm anxious to hear how themedical field has perhaps
changed, which I suspect mayhave led you to leave.
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
I think there were definitely changes that happened
over time.
I'm sure I changed over thecourse of those years, but the
job certainly changed quite alot.
And nobody gets to decide theera in which they live and when
they're born, really, even thesituation in which you're born.
But healthcare, U.S.
healthcare really started tomove towards a model of regional
corporate organizations.
(09:29):
Really, probably reading back onit, this is before I was in
medicine, this process wasalready in place.
But it became a system wherevirtually every hospital and
almost every clinic, I won't saywas forced to join that system,
but as economies of scale kindof operate, it was a process
that kind of elbowed outsmaller, more independently run
(09:50):
practices.
And so a lot of hospitals and alot of clinics chose to join
that system.
And I think with that, sure, alot of the administrative burden
is eased of running a smallerprivate hospital or running a
clinic, but you also are givingaway some of the autonomy and
decision making.
And I think that that'ssomething that we certainly felt
over the course of those years.
(10:10):
I started in the ER at ahospital in Kabaras County,
Concord that was independent andit had an incredible staff,
incredible staffing ratios.
It was known as uh a magnethospital for nursing, which was
a high-level designation forexcellence in nursing care.
About a year or so after I hadsigned on there, there was a
merger with Carolinas, whichlater became Atrium, and some
(10:34):
things definitely started tochange.
And so a lot of the staffingratios and things like that were
no longer as supportive as faras the nursing team and clinical
staff was concerned.
And I think that when you worklike I did for a number of years
or months in a system that Ifelt was very well staffed and
that we were empowered toprovide an excellent level of
(10:57):
care.
And then to see that kind oferode almost like a beach over
the years became a bit of adefeating feeling.
And not just for me, I think alot of other clinical workers
felt that.
That was something I think forsure that was dragging me down
to some degree compelled tochange.
SPEAKER_00 (11:12):
I want to, before we get into the actual change, I
wanted to ask you a little bit,because I find so much is being
talked right now aboutdiversity, equity, inclusion,
how it's being, you know,stamped out all over the place.
And I did, you know,particularly for our listeners,
from your perspective, whatinequities did you see in
healthcare, particularly in howpatients and providers of color
(11:35):
were treated?
And how did those experiencesperhaps shape your understanding
of systemic bias?
Or maybe you'll say there wasn'tany, but I doubt that.
But I'm just interested, andthen we can also kind of
piggyback when we talk a littlebit about education, because I
have a question that's relatedto that.
But I always am fascinated bysome of the articles and things
I read about some of the biasesthat exist.
(11:58):
Right.
So I've heard that black womenin the United States are three
times more likely to die inchildbirth.
And there's all kinds of reasonsfor that.
I oftentimes wonder how much ofit is systemic.
But from your perspective, assomeone who was in the field for
20 years, and I suspect fromwhat you've been talking about
in rather diverse communities,not just around racial or ethnic
lines, but around class lines aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (12:19):
Yeah, I mean, I think that at some point I
realized that I, as a whitemale, wasn't going to be as
questioned as some other fellowcolleagues were.
A biggie was uh women and I wasworking alongside who were also
emergency physicians, and wewere in a completely democratic
group.
People made the same salaries,and so I will say our group was
(12:39):
set up quite equitably when Iwas in emergency medicine, but I
didn't walk into a room andimmediately it was assumed that
I was the nurse, you know, andso and that happened regularly,
especially to some of my youngerfemale colleagues.
I would maybe experience theyou're not old enough to be
doing this, especially early onin my career when I look younger
than I do now.
(13:00):
But that was probably about theextent of it.
And I think that I also wasn'tquestioned or second-guessed to
the degree that, you know, thatsome of my black colleagues were
as they work in medicine.
So there was that kind of burdenweighing on some of my
colleagues that I wasn'texperiencing it, just to
recognize it at least, I thinkmade me hopefully operate a
(13:22):
little bit differently on aday-to-day basis.
And then also to sort of takethe flip side of the coin, I
think that in many instances,and some of this I think is a
perceived education level ofyour patients, of your
clientele, so that if you knowyou were seeing someone who grew
up in a rural area and maybedidn't have a high school
degree, some of this went on aswell.
(13:44):
But just this is operating froma place that removed kind of the
subtlety and the nuance out ofthe case and sort of
oversimplified the problem thatthe patient may be presenting
with, oversimplified thetreatment options and what the
complications could be.
And I think a lot of thisstarted from a place that was
(14:04):
well intentioned, in that I wantto help this person arrive at
what I see as the correctanswer, what I would do if it
were me or if it were my familymember.
I want to help them arrive thereas quickly as we can.
As time stressors start to pileup, maybe that's those behaviors
are are encouraged even more.
But I think that someone'snatural reaction to that when
(14:26):
they feel as if things are beingoversimplified, or maybe they're
not being told the whole story,is to naturally feel a little
distrust and on the part of thepatient.
So when that happens and someonefeels like almost like they're
being sold something, that canset up a bit of a, I don't want
to say antagonistic, but not acompletely collaborative
(14:49):
relationship like it needs tobe.
And so I feel like I'm fairlygood at reading the room, so to
speak.
And I felt like when thingsseemed to be sliding sideways as
far as how I was interactingwith the patient or family, it
was a time where I just what Ineeded to do was just take a
breath, have a seat if I wasn'tsitting already, and be ready to
(15:12):
spend some FaceTime and openmyself up to questions so that
deeper level of trust could beestablished.
And, you know, hopefully I didthat when it needed to be done.
There were probably times when Ididn't do it as well as it
needed to be done.
But I began to understand thatthose situations definitely
weren't one-offs.
These weren't isolatedinstances, that there were
patterns there and how thosethings occurred.
SPEAKER_00 (15:32):
That's interesting because you bring out that word
trust.
And I see it even withineducation, is that oftentimes
people from marginalizedcommunities, black, brown, have
had negative experiences in theeducational system, within the
medical field, and there is notrust that exists between those
individuals and the institutionsand the people who represent
(15:54):
them.
And so when I was listening toyou, I was like, Yeah, that
comes through.
What's the trust factor, right?
And that's how I am, even as apatient, with whatever the
doctor is.
Can I trust you to be honest,open with me?
And I find that even as ateacher, the parent, whether
it's a parent of color or not,is can you trust me?
Are you going to do right by meand my child?
(16:17):
And I think that's a powerfulthing.
And you know, I'm gonna ask youthis quick question and hadn't
thought about it, but how didyou gain trust when people
didn't have it?
SPEAKER_01 (16:28):
I think it's time is just so key at that point.
Just when, especially in theenvironment that we live and
work in now in the modern world,we're spread thin and we're
hurried, and there are all thesetasks that we have on our lists
to perform and accomplish, andyou just want to get to the next
one.
And when someone can just cansit down, can pause for a
(16:50):
second, can look you in the eye,and just put things on as even
of a footing as they canpossibly be, and open up to some
questions and show that you'rewilling to spend the time.
I think that that is the biggestway to establish, or the most
effective way in my mind, toestablish trust.
And it winds up more than payingitself off over the long haul to
just establish that early, takethe time that's necessary to
(17:13):
establish that early.
And then there isn't the degreeof second guessing and worrying
and, you know, and potentiallysetting up, like I said,
something that's not completelycollaborative.
Because if you have a physicianand patient relationship that's
not a hundred percentcollaborative, you know, it's
just so open for so many thingsto go wrong at so many different
(17:35):
times.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
You know, and one of the things too, Keith, is that
you know, I think in medicine orthe health outcomes for folks of
color are generally much lower,as I mentioned earlier.
And in education as well.
Right?
For students of color, theoutcomes, if we're only going to
measure it by test scores, butthere are other measures as
(17:57):
well, are not the same.
And I tend to think a lot of itis again the lack of trust.
But I'm wondering the implicitbias that doctors or teachers
have, the expectations theyhave.
I wonder oftentimes, and I don'tknow if there's any way you can
finitely say this is the reason,but affect that, right?
People's biases affect some ofthe overall outcomes.
(18:20):
And so there's no doubt aboutthat.
Uh-huh.
And did you were you gonna addsomething or no?
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Because I was gonna No, I think and some of that is
it's so difficult.
And you teach US history and youteach also a you know a global
studies course.
In my mind, it's because of theUS's history, it's so difficult
to tease apart race and socialclass because they were so
intertwined and still are for solong.
How could you really even beginto control for some of those
(18:46):
things?
And that's just one of the sadstates of where we are, is that
was kind of baked into thesystem that you know, race was
going to be the predictor ofsocial class.
SPEAKER_00 (18:54):
Right.
But even, and I should beremissive, and you would
probably agree, even when wetalk about class in the
Appalachian Mountains or in WestVirginia or Virginia in the area
that you grew up where peoplewere working class and poor
oftentimes, the health outcomesbecause, especially with this
corporatization of medicine,there are not a lot of hospitals
in these rural areas.
You gotta go from, you know, Ioftentimes think, you know,
(19:17):
we've been talking a lot, haveexperienced cancer in my own
family.
You know, I just think if you'rein some little town in
Appalachia or in Mississippi andyou get cancer, I just like,
wow, where do you have to go toget the most up-to-date, you
know, treatments, thechemotherapy and the radiation,
and you just can see people notdoing it and dying from it.
SPEAKER_01 (19:37):
Absolutely.
Unfortunately, a couple offamily members who are
navigating some of that stuffright now, and they're in, you
know, it's not a completelyisolated pocket of Virginia, but
they're still having to drive acouple hundred miles for more
specialized care.
And then, like you said, ifthat's something that winds up
requiring more repeat specialtyvisits for things like chemo,
(19:58):
for things like radiation, whata burden and sometimes almost
impossible burden that becomes.
Obviously getting worse asMedicaid funding and things like
that come into question.
So many hospitals in rural areasand underserved areas are
absolutely dependent on that.
So what do we prioritize?
You can tell, I think maybe uhin the questions you sent me
earlier on, the way you tellwhat a country prioritizes is
(20:20):
take a look at its budget.
Uh, where does it spend itsmoney?
And when there are cuts beingmade to education and
healthcare, you know, the poorin rural areas of the country,
whether that's in the innercities or whether that's in, you
know, Appalachia where I grewup, are the ones that are gonna
suffer.
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
So let's get now, let's transition a little bit to
leaving medicine.
I know that had to be a majordecision.
And I'm not gonna lie, when Iremember when you came to
Providence Day, they said thisguy named Keith, he was a
doctor, and now he's gonna beworking subbing, and then I was
like, What?
I said, I gotta meet this guybecause I want to know what in
(20:56):
the world is he doing here, andthat's not to say as somebody
who's taught this will be my32nd year beginning soon, that I
don't have much respect for myprofession, I do, but it was a
surprise.
So now I'm gonna ask thequestion, I've probably been
waiting like three years to askyou.
What pulled you well, first, andmaybe they're two separate
(21:17):
things.
Why did you leave?
And I think I got some inklingof that, so you don't have to
spend a lot of time on that.
And then what made you go intoeducation?
And were there other thingsvying for your attention, right?
You had teaching and maybe acouple other things that you
could have done.
SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
I'm glad you asked this too.
And this is really the mainreason, really, that book I
think was born was because I wasasked why so often, and it was
just not a very satisfyinganswer to say it's complicated
and it wasn't satisfying for me,and it wasn't satisfying for the
person who was asking.
Interestingly, the folks in whoare in healthcare are much less
apt to ask why.
(21:55):
They're the ones that arehigh-fiving me and slap me on
the back and say, Oh gosh, yeah,you did it.
Wow, it's amazing.
Just because they're all toofamiliar with some of the ills
of the system itself, I thinkthat I discussed earlier.
But people in educationunderstandably want to know more
about why.
But, you know, luckily after 20years in medicine, I was in a
spot that I was fortunate enoughto be able to even entertain
(22:18):
doing something like this.
You know, I had paid my loansoff, you know, financially was
in a pretty good spot.
My wife, God bless her, stillloves her job in pediatrics and
is working about, I think, asmuch as the sort of perfect
Goldilocks amount of how muchshe wants to work in an average
week and is still enjoying that.
And so she's been very steady.
But the things that I think werestarting to wear me down in
(22:41):
medicine, I realized that when Iwas teaching, there were
actually plenty of teachingopportunities that came with
that job.
There were PA students and therewere residents and medical
students and nurse practitionersand things like that who would
work with me.
And then I did a chief residentyear when I was in residency and
gave, you know, was preparingdidactic lectures and
conferences and things likethat.
(23:01):
And those teaching instancesnever really felt like work to
me.
Those were more renewing andinvigorating.
And I think I was able to pullback enough and get a little
wider of an angle of what waswrong and what was right with my
job and with where I wasprofessionally to be able to
say, well, teaching part youreally kind of dig.
(23:22):
Maybe we should explore this alittle further.
And at some point when I wasfeeling, you know, just a little
off-mission and burned out, Ireached out to Amy Jordan in our
upper school science department.
She invited me in to come andhelp dissect on one of their
dissection days.
And I just sat a ball.
Like it didn't feel like work inthe least, just very relaxed
(23:44):
environment.
And the kids were allinterested, had chosen to take
that class.
And that's when I decided, Imean, maybe I need to look into
this a little further.
And so it became a process overa couple of years to make the
transition and to pick up somesubstitute shifts.
And we were in a pretty brutalwave of COVID back, had reached
a point where I had actuallyresigned my administrative role
in urgent care.
(24:05):
And PD told me, hey, look, anyday you want to work, you can
show us how we were just hurtingand reeling from COVID.
People were out for five and 10days at a time.
I became a more committed to it.
And you know, next thing youknow, someone goes out on leave
early and Leaf Tappy asked me ifI wanted to take four seventh
grade science classes.
And I just kind of said tomyself, I'm either going to do
(24:25):
this now or I'm never going todo it.
So I did.
And I've been very grateful thatI've had the chances and
opportunities that I've had.
And I try to look at it that waywhen I go into work every day,
is that this is just this is anopportunity that I got that a
lot of people won't get.
And if I continue to look at itlike that, I'll make more of it.
I'll make the most of the daysthat I'm there.
SPEAKER_00 (24:44):
And the reason I'm asking is certainly for our
listeners in you know, privateschools don't have necessarily
the certification requirementsthat you might have needed if
you wanted to teach in CMS orCharlotte Mecklenburg school
system.
So what kind of support did youhave to have?
What were the challenges?
Because I'm assuming it's like,wow, here I am in front of all
these middle school kids and I'mteaching.
(25:05):
And one thing I've learned overthe years, I tell people that's
one of the things aboutprofessors.
Many of them, I sometimes thinkK through 12 teachers are better
teachers sometimes thanprofessors at a university
because they know the subjectmatter well.
But just because you know asubject matter doesn't mean you
can teach it.
So what were some of thechallenges, the help that you
needed, and may still need asyou do this job, because you're
(25:28):
only three or four years in?
SPEAKER_01 (25:29):
That's right.
I'm learning every day.
And you know, that when I firsttook on the seventh grade
science classes, the fourseventh grade science classes,
Doug Burgess treated me like agraduate student, or maybe
someone who wasn't even at thatlevel when he was teaching me
the physics of optics that I wasgoing to need to teach to
seventh graders.
And I hadn't thought about thatin probably 20-some years and
(25:50):
needed to wake it up.
And so I first had to become thestudent, and he was very patient
with me.
And it you people at ProvidenceDay have gone out of their way
over and over and over when Ihave any sort of dilemma,
whether it's something that'sgot to do with discipline,
whether it's something to dowith the parent interaction,
whether it's something to dowith clerical work, because I'm
a product of the analog age andI plod through stuff like a lot
(26:13):
of people do who were born inthe 70s or before.
But people, I could go to two orthree dozen different people at
any point and get advice.
And, you know, people just trulywanted me to succeed, and they
still do.
Bonnie Wright, with who nowheads up our middle school
science department, has beendoing this for 20-some years, I
think, total, maybe more.
(26:34):
And she just has, I mean, shecan run the science lab like
she's an army quartermaster, isjust incredibly organized, can
show me tricks and shortcuts andtips on how to do stuff from a
clerical standpoint.
It's almost like as long as Iwas willing to put in the
effort, people were not going tolet me fail.
That was a good feeling when Irealized that because coming in
(26:55):
as a first-year teacher, theclosest thing I can compare it
to, having been through both, isit's a lot like your intern year
in medicine.
You know, you just come in,you're doing these every month
rotations.
You might be on plastic surgeryfor a month, and then you're on
neurology for a month, and thenyou're on pediatrics, and then
you're doing OBGYN.
You're the least experienced,least knowledgeable person on
(27:16):
the team every time, over andover and over and over.
And it's fairly humbling.
The first year of teaching iskind of like that, and you're
just not really sure coming intoeach day.
This is the first time I've donethis lesson.
I'm not really sure if I'm gonnasink or swim.
I'm gonna toss this boomerangout and hope it comes back.
And you learn a lot that way onwhat's gonna work and what
doesn't work.
And also during a lot of my openperiods, I would go and sit in
(27:40):
on your class, or I would sit inon Wes Shira's class, or go sit
in on Ann Parker's class andjust pick up some strategies,
some things to do when we neededto transition from one activity
to the other.
How can we break something upand allow a little bit of
spontaneity without there beingtotal chaos that you can't
(28:00):
recover from?
And I got to see a lot of thatand you know, a lot of things
that worked and some things thatdidn't work and put them into
action.
So, but it's still, I mean, Ihave so much to learn and I'm in
a better spot because I feellike I'll learn it.
I'm in a place where I can learnit and I'm supported.
And I'm also given just enoughautonomy and freedom to
occasionally just try somethingnew.
And if I follow my face, then welearn from that too.
(28:23):
And the kids see that as well.
And there's nothing wrong withthat.
Like they when the kids see,wow, that was a total face plan,
and we were able to shift andrecover, and that's going to
happen to me sometimes.
And a lot of it's how you handleit and how you respond and
bounce back.
So I'm very, very fortunate tobe where I am.
SPEAKER_00 (28:40):
Let me ask you this are there, or how do you
reconcile the differences andsimilarities between the
communities you serve in bothmedicine and students?
SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
As far as just because with where we are, we're
in a an independent school thattends to have a population
that's a little more well offand a little more wealthy.
Is that what you mean comparedto where I came from in
medicine?
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
Or yeah, the different communities, yeah,
that's part of it.
I think I'm just interesting,and maybe I should phrase it a
little bit differently, maybethinking what are the through
lines that you find in yourcareer in medicine that you find
in education?
Are there through lines?
SPEAKER_01 (29:19):
Yeah, I think anxiety is certainly one.
You know, I come from emergencymedicine, and so you know,
everyone who came in there, inaddition to what they had going
on, was also having an anxietyattack.
You know, if you broke your leg,of course you're having an
anxiety attack.
If you can't breathe, of coursethere's anxiety that's sprinkled
in.
And it's the same story, Ithink, just anxiety, and I mean
(29:39):
a different way, obviously, andwith the younger overall patient
population, but people areunsure and uncertain.
And I think that if whatever youcan do to create a culture of
safety is going to paydividends.
So, you know, time spent doingthat, you know, when the kids
know it's okay for me to messup, I can correct this if I need
(29:59):
some extra.
Help, I can advocate for myselfand figure out ways to get it.
And I think you asked in thequestions you sent ahead about
why middle school.
And this kind of leads intothat.
And I think it's just that kidsat this age are now sort of
becoming their adult selves witha little less guidance from
their parents.
You know, most of the parentsare starting to maybe peel away
(30:21):
a little bit by the time thekids are in the middle school
compared to when they were inlower school.
But then also are there's notthe degree of there's not the
same focus or preoccupation ongrades and transcripts.
So the kids are afforded alittle bit of room to try it a
different way.
And if they screw up, then whatdo we need to do to fix it?
And I think that that's a goodplace to be.
(30:42):
And then you also get to see thekids really just develop their
style or mature into their adultselves.
That's really rewarding.
SPEAKER_00 (30:49):
So I know that you've written a book about this
transition and reflects, ofcourse, on your journey from
becoming a doctor to teacher.
It's called Tickled Soul.
Without giving too much away,what do you think, or what do
you hope resonates most witheducators who sit down and read
it?
SPEAKER_01 (31:03):
I think that I sure don't want it to be preachy
because I'm still new to this.
So experienced educators inparticular, they know a lot more
about this and the process andthe drawbacks and the joys and
struggles than I do.
So I wouldn't try to turn itinto something that's a you
know, that's preachy.
This is just my experience withit.
(31:24):
And I think what it's allowed meto do is just even though I'm
getting close to 50 years old,that I now am approaching things
with a little more curiosity andoptimism than I had before.
And I think working inhealthcare for 20 years sort of,
I don't know, I think you getkind of bathed in cynicism
enough, it starts to kind ofsettle in and become part of
your identity.
(31:45):
It's been nice for me to be ableto kind of wash that away.
That's a key thing.
And then also the book, becauseI was asked why did you decide
to do this and realized thatthis was such a dramatic and I
don't want to say completelyunique or uncharted, but it
doesn't happen very often forsomeone to make this transition
that I did.
There was some interest there.
And when I went back to exploreit, I was like, well, I kind of
(32:06):
need to understand a little moreabout what my own identity is
and what my own purpose is.
And that started, I realized Ineeded to go back to the very
beginning and what exactly do Ibelieve it's healthy to do that,
I think, for just about anyoneat various stages of their
lives.
But I think in midlife inparticular, it can be quite
enlightening.
SPEAKER_00 (32:25):
Great.
It is very fascinating.
And I would say probably rarethat somebody leaves medicine
and then goes into it.
So it's just a fascinatingthing.
And I'm glad that you sit downand wrote the book.
So now if anybody asks you thatquestion, you just give them the
book.
That's exactly right.
Great.
I do want to ask you thisquestion.
(32:45):
This season, I'm asking all myguests to reflect on whether the
way education is currentlystructured, and of course,
you've only been in it a fewyears, but if you want to weave
in perhaps in medicine, that'sfine too.
But I'm asking them whether thesystem of education that we have
right now and the way it'sstructured can truly be
reformed, or if it is somethingor if we need to have something
(33:09):
new and radical in its place.
So again, from your perspective,drawing on both your short term
in education and your longercareer in medicine, do you think
meaningful change in educationis possible from within, or does
it require somethingfundamentally or radically
different?
SPEAKER_01 (33:25):
Boy, I mean, that's such a tough question.
I think that's a lot of us seetrends that are not promising as
far as education is concerned,and that troubles us when you
want to feel like you're leavinga world that's a little better
for your kids and their kids.
So to me, I think we're notgoing to improve it by funding
it less.
And so, you know, policydecisions that affect budget are
(33:47):
huge.
I mean, people shouldn't have towork in medicine for 20 years
before they feel like they canfinancially take a job in
education.
It's got to be a morefinancially robust and viable
option for teachers.
And I think too, just you know,as funding gets cut and class
sizes get bigger and bigger andbigger, and you know, the
classroom becomes more of acrowd control issue as opposed
(34:11):
to a learning environment, whatcan we expect to be getting out
of that?
You can't fix every problem bythrowing money at it, but I
think that it's certainly notgonna get better with funding
that's cut, just put it thatway.
SPEAKER_00 (34:21):
In the public school system, and of course, you know,
we could probably talk foreverabout you know the inequities in
the system if one lives in anaffluent area, right?
You get a better education.
But that's the same in medicine.
You live in an affluent area,whether you're gonna get a
better health care and betteroutcomes, and that's sadly how
it exists.
(34:42):
Well, great.
My last question always to myguest is can you tell us about a
teacher who made a significantdifference in your life?
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
I think my high school math teacher was a guy
named Bob Russell, and he wasprobably in his 60s already by
the time I got to high school.
I had him all four years as Icame through, and I was a good
math student.
But he was about 6'7, and helooked like Lurch from the Adams
family, and would go outside andsmoke pretty much between every
(35:13):
period or so.
Sometimes a little downtimebetween each class, where if you
could craft a good practicaljoke for him, he actually loved
it.
And so, despite the fact he haddone it for so many years, he
came in just with this everyday's a new day and a little
different, and some differentfun things can happen.
And I think that approach wasjust kind of enlightening to see
someone who was at in sort ofthe twilight of their career and
(35:36):
still enjoying it as much as hedid.
That's how I hope I hope mycareer ends.
SPEAKER_00 (35:41):
Great, great.
Great again having you on thepodcast.
I want you again to say the nameof the book, where they can find
it, and if people want to talkto you or learn on a one-on-one
how they might be able tocontact you.
SPEAKER_01 (35:54):
Sure.
So the book is Tickled Soul, issort of the bit print at the
top, and then underneath that isthe philosophical journey of a
doctor turned middle schoolteacher.
You can get it on the heavyhitter sites like Amazon and
Barnes and Noble and some of theothers you're familiar with.
But the publisher also, if youwant to support a smaller
business, the publisher isWarren Publishing, and you can
order it there as well.
I'm on LinkedIn if anyone wouldlike to connect there.
(36:17):
And then my email address isjust Kpochick, K-P-O-C-H-I-C-K
at gmail.com, and I'm happy toconnect and bat some ideas
around.
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Ray and I'll put all that too in the show notes, and
people can find that book andpick it up.
I've begun reading and it'squite good.
I'm enjoying it.
Thank you.
Oh, definitely, definitely.
Again, Keith, thank you fortaking the time to come on the
Teachers Forum.
I really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:41):
David, thank you so much for having me.
We'll see you again tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
Thank you for listening to the Teachers Forum
podcast with me, your host,David Harris.
I hope you have enjoyed today'sdiscussion.
You can reach the Teachers Forumon Twitter at the Forum 1993 or
by email to David at theteachersforum.org.
Let me know what you think or ifyou have an idea for a future
podcast.
(37:16):
Don't forget to check out allthe links and resources in the
show notes.
That's all for this episode.
To everyone out there, thank youso much for taking the time to
listen.
And to my fellow educators farand wide, remember that to teach
is to make footprints in thesand for an eternity.
Peace.
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