July 11, 2025 • 36 mins
Alex Rühl is an award-winning immersive creator, technologist, and innovation leader whose career spans VR content creation, enterprise consulting, and emerging technology strategy. As founder of Cats Are Not Peas and former Head of Emerging Tech at PwC, Alex has helped shape how global organizations adopt and scale immersive technologies.
Key Takeaways
- Roots in Innovation: Alex’s journey began with a fascination for new tech, inspired by her family’s early adoption of internet tools and gadgets.
- Immersive Content Pioneer: She spent seven years building VR experiences and later expanded into AR and other immersive formats, always seeking to understand how people create and engage with new media.
- Enterprise Innovation at PwC: At PwC, Alex led metaverse and emerging tech initiatives, guiding large organizations to adopt VR, AR, blockchain, AI, and quantum computing for real business value.
- Value-Driven Approach: She emphasizes that enterprise adoption hinges on clear value—saving money, saving time, or creating new revenue streams.
- Authenticity Over Transaction: Alex stresses the importance of genuine relationships in business, advocating for honesty and setting realistic expectations, especially in high-stakes innovation projects.
- Learning Through Experimentation: She shared the story of launching Geospatial Insights, an enterprise app for Apple Vision Pro, highlighting the importance of transparency about risks and learnings in new tech deployments.
- Balancing ROI and Innovation: Alex discusses the tension between the need for measurable ROI and the necessity of learning and experimentation in innovation, advising founders to focus on the right industry and buyer profiles.
- Personal Glow Up: After a decade in immersive tech, Alex is taking a well-earned break and looking forward to a new phase of “giving back,” sharing her knowledge and supporting the next generation of innovators.
About Alex Rühl
Alex Rühl is an award-winning virtual reality creator and founder of Cats Are Not Peas. Formerly head of Metaverse Technologies at PwC. Since starting her VR career in 2015, she’s written, directed and exec produced several original pieces included 360º romcom Keyed Alike (Starring Gemma Whelan, HBO’s Game of Thrones, and Natacha Karam, Fox’s 9-1-1: Lone Star), interactive VR thought experiment Playing God (premiered at Cannes XR 2019) and her most recent piece Rock Paper Scissors which had its world premiere at Venice Film Festival in 2022 (first VR piece funded by BFI Network).
A notable figure in the XR industry, she has received industry recognition for her work in immersive storytelling (The Drum’s 50 under 30, Women of the Future Awards, Pioneers of XR Award) and is a global keynote speaker on the topic of the metaverse (TEDx, BFI, Adobe, Royal Television Society, Department of International Trade & more).
Alex has worked alongside the world’
A "glow up" signifies a positive transformation, reflecting the journey of becoming a better, more successful version of oneself.
At The Tech Glow Up, we humanize the startup and innovation landscape by focusing on the essential aspects of the entrepreneurial journey. Groundbreaking ideas are often ahead of their time, making resilience and perseverance vital for founders and product leaders.
In our podcast, we engage with innovators to discuss their transformative ideas, the challenges they face, and how they create value for future success.
If you're a founder or product leader seeking your own glow up, or a seasoned entrepreneur with stories to share, we invite you to join our guest list via this link.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan C Bowser (00:00):
I'm Nathan C and I am so pleased to be
talking with Alex Rühl.
Alex, thanks for joining me onThe Glow Up today.
Alex Rühl (00:06):
Thank you so much for having me! It makes my heart
glow to be here!
Nathan C Bowser (00:11):
Oh, wow!
Alex Rühl (00:12):
And I'm done!
Nathan C Bowser (00:13):
Don't stop! Don't stop! Love it.
So Alex, you have done so muchin innovation.
I hate to even try to summarizeit myself.
Could you introduce yourself toThe Glow Up audience and tell us
a little bit about what you doin innovation?
Alex Rühl (00:27):
Oh, that is a big question.
I guess my innovation journey,well I think technically it
probably started when I was akid and my parents were obsessed
with every new gadget.
Including, for example, my dadwas telling me recently that
when he started his web designcompany, the modems in the UK
were not built to send filetransfers internationally.
So he was one of the firstpeople to go out and find an
(00:48):
internet provider and a modemprovider from across the globe
because the UK just was not goodenough at the time.
So shout out to them for theinnovation start! But then I
guess my own kind of career tooka dive into the innovation world
back in 2015 when I had a bit ofan existential crisis, bit of a
(01:08):
quarter life crisis as one doesin their mid-twenties.
Decided to quit my job intelevision, move to Canada, and
had no clue what I was gonna do.
And at the time, this was whenthe new VR headsets were coming
out the first new wave ofconsumer headsets.
So I believe at that point itwas probably the first version
(01:28):
of the Rift or the Developer Kitand Google Cardboard and things
like that.
And yeah, I just rememberputting that on my face for the
first time and thinking, how onearth do people create content
for this thing?
I wanna know everything aboutthis new technology.
What is it?
What are people doing with it?
How are people creating for it?
And from there, I essentiallyjust dove straight into the VR
(01:50):
industry.
I spent a good seven yearsbuilding content specifically
for virtual reality.
And then broader than thatlooking at immersive content in
general, whether that be 360 formore traditional devices like
iPads or desktop or AR content.
And then, alongside that journeyI was always interested in new
tech, such as like blockchainand AI.
(02:10):
But that didn't really factorinto my life in a professional
way until I joined PwC as thehead of at the time metaverse
technologies, but then becamethe head of emerging
technologies after being therefor a year.
And what that meant is that Iwas like all of a sudden in
charge of looking at not onlyhow VR and AR could impact
enterprises around the world,but also how businesses could
(02:34):
kind of use newer technologieslike blockchain, quantum
computing, you know, how AI wasgonna transform all of these
technologies and how businessescould essentially make the most
of these technologies.
Nathan C Bowser (02:45):
Wow! I love that in just a few minutes time,
we went from dial-up modems thatcan't call internationally to
running the practice area forlike most deep tech and
innovation for a consultancylike PwC.
Alex Rühl (03:04):
Yeah.
Pretty mad when you say it likethat.
Nathan C Bowser (03:06):
Hey but you did it! One of the things that you
mentioned that I am endlesslygeeky about is, everybody who
has like a startup or is ininnovation, is always trying to
crack that enterprise nut,right?
And the kinds of clients thatyou're working with as a
(03:27):
consultant, where you're helpingthese very large organizations
understand, adopt, and get valueout of any number, from
metaverse to blockchain, seemstotally fraught.
And there are thousands andthousands of people out there in
the world trying to do it.
And one of the gaps that I'vealways found is the connection
(03:50):
between the technology and thevalue or the use case is usually
one of the biggest determinantsof if a product's gonna be get
done, you also have to havestakeholders and there's some
other parts to that digitaltransformation part.
Can you talk about the kinds ofcore problems that you help
these large organizations solveby bringing in these kinds of
(04:12):
technologies?
Alex Rühl (04:13):
Yeah, absolutely! And it's interesting to hear you
say that because in so manyways, I feel like enterprise is
so much easier to crack thanconsumers.
Especially for a technology likevirtual reality, right?
Like plot twist! Hot take! And Ithink the hardest bit is, to
your point, if you don'tunderstand what these
(04:34):
large-scale businesses' coreproblems are, then you're
probably going to find itdifficult to break in.
But once you know what they areand how your particular
solution, your emerging techsolution can solve it, it's much
easier to build a sustainable,scalable, high-profit business.
That's my opinion.
So to, to kind of I guess,directly answer your question,
(04:56):
you know, in enterprise reallywhat it comes down to, it's so
simple.
It's how is your product orservice making a company more
money?
How is it saving more money?
Or how is it saving time?
Because time is money in thesecompanies, right?
So are you reducing cost?
Are you reducing the amount oftime it takes to do something?
Or are you creating a newrevenue stream?
(05:18):
Are you helping increase profit?
So with something like AI forexample, most people will hear
most commonly that AI iscreating efficiencies.
And what that really means is itis reducing the cost and
reducing the amount of time ittakes to do things, right?
And in business terms, that issaving money, especially for
time-based businesses.
(05:38):
Some businesses areproduct-based and so therefore
they'd probably be more focusedon trying to sell more or create
more profit or create newrevenue streams rather than, I
mean everyone wants to save timeand money, but for time-based
businesses such asconsultancies, like we
ourselves, I say"we" as PwC,I've actually just left.
This is my first interviewactually as not a PwC employee.
Nathan C Bowser (06:00):
Another Glow Up exclusive!
Alex Rühl (06:03):
It is, it is! Thank you for having me as me and not
just my title.
You know, there's always thatmoment when you leave a big job
like that where you think like,do people still wanna talk to
me?
Thank you Nathan for stillwanting to talk to me!
Nathan C Bowser (06:16):
Oh my goodness! You've started out on a couple
really interesting tracksbecause, enterprise is easy if
you understand the value islike, fantastic! And then this
idea...
in the B2B marketing space, wetalk all the time about even in
B2B, people still buy frompeople, people still like
(06:38):
transact on relationships.
So it's very interesting assomebody who's been incredibly
you know successful in buildingpowerful relationships and
partnerships at the level thatyou have, that you still might
have a little bit of that, shallwe say, founder's doubt?
I don't even wanna say impostersyndrome'cause like you own this
(06:59):
space, like Alex Does VR, right?
But it's super cool to see that,like even a very accomplished,
experienced innovator mightstill have some of those
feelings, no matter wherethey're looking from.
Alex Rühl (07:14):
Oh! That is a very Glow Up themed conversation I
guess.
I once watched this reallyamazing Simon Sinek talk about
this exact concept, which isthat he gives the analogy of
this very highly influentialkind of character.
I think like some kind ofgeneral or something, who had a
very fancy title.
Simon talks about the fact that,this person is flown private to
(07:37):
an event and they have a VIPexperience when they come into
event and there's a green roomspecifically for him before he
goes on stage to talk.
And that same person comes backto talk at that same event like
two years later, but he doesn'thold that same position anymore.
And he flies coach and he has tofly there himself.
He has to get his own taxi tothe event.
(07:57):
He doesn't have a private greenroom, and he has to get his own
coffee.
And the point was that, youcan't get too high on your own
supply, right?
Because ultimately yes, to yourpoint, you can accomplish a lot
and you can have a lot ofexperience, a lot of knowledge,
but to some extent theprivileges that you are
afforded, especially as you workin these slightly more corporate
(08:17):
high powered jobs it is reservedfor the title, you know?
It is reserved for the positionthat you hold.
And this is going down a wholenother rabbit hole, so feel free
to pull this one back.
Like, I unfortunately believethat most people are quite
transactional and it's reallyobvious when someone wants to
talk to you because they wantsomething from you rather than
actually to build a genuine,authentic connection.
(08:37):
That's one thing I've alwaysloved about you, like I've known
you for years.
I feel like I must have knownyou or must have come across you
at AWE before I even got myposition at PwC.
But you know, these kind ofrelationships that last kind of
like throughout the years arebuilt on genuine kind of shared
passion, right?
Rather than tit for tat.
I want something from you.
(08:58):
You want something from me, youknow?
Nathan C Bowser (08:59):
As somebody who has been like a thought leader,
a consultant who has beenguiding these larger groups
about how they can think aboutthese tools, that journey of
like expertise, that journey ofleadership, that journey of
relationship, comes out in thestory that you tell.
The wrapper of like, what is thebusiness model or like how do we
(09:22):
interact with clients?
And the thing that I wanna pullout is it's so obvious why you
have been successful in all ofthese places is that you have
that focus on, what are thosecore things that these
businesses and people arelooking for, but that, those
relationships that you havebuilt are one of those things
(09:42):
that allow you to drive thesekinds of tough projects and
these big new ideas intocompanies because you are more
than just that transactional andthat you can actually empathize
and see inside what's going on.
I'm glad we went there.
Good! Continuing on this idea oflearning from the enterprise and
(10:03):
how we do innovation, I'mcurious if you can talk to any
times where on this innovationjourney with your customer
you've learned something about aproject, you had an idea, you
started to take it out there,and whether it was opportunities
or challenges you had to like,change your approach.
Like how do you guide, how doyou approach this?
(10:25):
You've just made a huge promiseto a huge company.
There's huge expectations.
How do you guide thoseconversations and talk about
change and learning in such anelevated environment?
Alex Rühl (10:36):
I'm a big believer on hardcore honesty from the
start.
And I think when you work in ourfields you have to prepare
someone, you have to preparecustomers for the fact that they
might spend what will be quite asignificant amount of money on
(10:56):
something that yes is stilltechnically experimental and you
can give as many, frameworksaround like how you're going to
make the project successful andwhat the core kind of KPIs are
going to be of the project thatwill be closely monitored.
You can talk about a theoreticalreturn on investment that they
could expect where the project,you know, to kind of be
(11:17):
implemented correctly andsucceed.
But ultimately my big thing isif someone's gonna spend money,
especially in organizations evenif they're like the biggest
organizations in the world thathave so much money, every penny
that you are taking forinnovation, you are taking away
from people's wages from all theother basic runnings of that
(11:38):
company.
So, I'm a big believer in sayingright up front here's the
reality of working with atechnology like VR.
Here's the reality of runninglike a kind of an alpha
blockchain project.
I am a big believer that thatthen leads to a much better
working relationship.
It means that if you do facechallenges or things come up
along the way, you'vepre-prepared them for that fact.
(12:00):
And also just really goodstakeholder communication that I
would say the big differencebetween working with small
businesses versus mammoth hugeglobal organizations is just the
level of stakeholders and theamount of bureaucracy that goes
into any decision.
So when you start to work atthat kind of level, you just
need to understand that likeyour job is to essentially be
(12:22):
kind of making sure everyone ison the same page.
When people aren't on the samepage, it's your job to
facilitate a conversation.
It's your job to kind of useyour communication skills to try
and work through any issues toget everyone back on the same
page so you can move forward.
I would say that, for mostbusinesses trying to break into
enterprise, that's just onething to be aware of.
I'm thinking of a particularproject that we built actually
(12:44):
internally, although it's nowused with clients, but it was
when the Apple Vision Pro firstcame out.
And there was a lot of talkabout the fact that, if we do
this, if we build this product,which we believe is going to be
like massively impactful acrossthe organization, it's gonna
help a lot of clients.
It's gonna be fascinating, butit's going to be one of the
first enterprise apps on thisnew device that no one has
(13:07):
tested before.
No one's ever built for itbefore'cause it's only just come
out! So making everyone aware weare gonna invest this money.
This is what we hope to do withthat.
This is what the roadmap lookslike.
If it fails though, we will havea load of learnings.
We will put as many things inplace to make sure it doesn't
fail.
And thankfully I can happily saythat it didn't fail.
But you know, we went into thatbeing like, this could fail
(13:27):
horribly because we've neverbuilt for this thing.
And we had a very specifictimeline'cause we were launching
this app at VivaTech last year.
So, yeah and we ended up doingit.
That project is calledGeospatial Insights.
It's a PwC product thatessentially allows you to map
geospatial data on a 3Denvironment, so you can do
things like logistics planningor climate mapping.
(13:49):
You know, looking at what floodrisks might be in a certain area
or, for big event planning, howcan you look where you might
need crowd management or extratransport links et cetera.
Really cool tool.
So glad we did it.
But just an example of a projectwhere you go into it saying
let's just make sure everyone isaware that this is a new device.
This is a totally new thing weare doing.
We are working with a new set oftools.
(14:10):
We are building for a newheadset that no one's ever
really used before.
There's loads of things thatcould go wrong, but if it works,
oh it's gonna be magic.
And it was!
Nathan C Bowser (14:20):
I really appreciate that, thank you.
There's a little bit of atension that I'm really
enjoying, right?
Because the first kind ofdirection that we started in
like enterprise is easy'causeyou gotta be focused on value
and return.
And now we're like, wellinnovation is a journey and you
gotta set expectations and bepatient.
(14:41):
And I feel like that's like acontinuum or even like a little
bit of the client relationshipjourney in innovation.
Like one is a starting point andone is the endpoint.
How do you balance those twolike really key elements of a
relationship like this?
(15:02):
Like on one, I remember a coupleyears ago in Vienna for AWE, in
the enterprise program, therewas some really compelling
conversations, right?
That I believe it was aninsurance company was talking
about their threshold for ROIand that they were totally
willing to spend millions ofdollars to get a 10x return.
(15:28):
But that some of the challengesthey had with like learning and
innovation and like early VRtraining was they're like, okay,
we can buy a bunch of headsets,we can do a deployment, we can
do some training, and maybe a$200,000 investment will lead to
a$500,000 return.
I'm a global insurance company.
(15:49):
That's not enough.
Alex Rühl (15:52):
Yep.
Nathan C Bowser (15:52):
Right?
So like, I hear you on thelearning and growing, but
there's also this challenge oflike how do you turn learning
and growing into value, or howdo you like balance those ideas
in the same project?
And I don't know if there's ananswer, but if somebody knows
you might!
Alex Rühl (16:08):
Yeah, I so appreciate your faith in me! No
it's interesting, right?
And there are definitely someindustries and there are some
I'll say buyer profiles thatjust won't kind of, they won't
want to do the riskier stuffbecause they do want the massive
return and they want theguaranteed return.
(16:29):
And it needs to be able to scaleand needs to be able to scale
fast.
So in that, I'm empathetic,right?
Insurance is like a really lowmargin business as well.
So in terms of, they really doneed to get a massive ROI
generally speaking to justifycosts.
But if you look at like a sectorlike retail, for example, retail
(16:52):
is it's almost like you aredoing the B2B bit so that they
could do the B2C bit.
And there's a lot more kind oflike pressure on innovating
because that's what theirconsumers expect.
We did kind of strategicadvisory work for a large retail
brand.
I think they're a global brand,but specifically based in the
UK.
And we were looking at theirdemographic was relatively an
(17:14):
older, married woman was theircore demographic.
And they were saying that'samazing and that's fine for now,
but ultimately we are notintaking any younger
generations, right?
We are not seeing our customerof the future coming up
underneath our typical buyer.
And that's a problem because in10 years time we need a younger
(17:38):
demographic to also be a corebuyer of our services and we
need to pre-plan for the future.
So I would say, you know, thattension is all about A) If you
are speaking to someone whoisn't in the right industry,
doesn't have that kind of riskappetite, it just doesn't make
financial sense for theircompany, like that's the wrong
person to be selling to.
I'm a big fan of don't sell theunsellable.
(18:00):
Focus on people that are closerto the yes, they know that they
want to innovate, they knowthey've got money to spend in
that.
Or look at these kind of moreinnovative sectors.
That's what I would say.
I mean, it's kind of interestingactually talking about this in
the age of AI because, again,interesting that I'm bringing up
so much PwC literature afterI've literally just left, but I
guess it's fresh on the mind!But PwC released a report, I
(18:23):
think in May, might have beenearly June, that looked at
essentially what AI was going todo to jobs.
And they did, I think it'sliterally called"The AI Jobs
Report" and they released thefirst version of it last year
and then they've done anotherone this year.
And you can compare what thedata is saying now versus last
year and last year there waslike a much lower percentage of
industries that thought thatthey needed to adopt AI.
(18:46):
And this year it was a hundredpercent.
A hundred percent of industriesare adopting it.
A hundred percent of industriesare investing in it.
A hundred percent of industriesknow that they need it.
That's really interestingbecause all of a sudden you're
seeing an emerging tech what wasan emerging technology all of a
sudden penetrate so kind ofdeeply that no matter who you
(19:07):
are as a company, you need toinvest.
It's not a matter of when.
And I feel like with newertechnologies such as VR, such as
AR, such as blockchain, such asquantum, these are much further
out on their journey compared toAI.
Like they're nowhere near readyto be like business as usual,
like AI is.
But they will go on a similarjourney where at some point the
(19:29):
tipping point will happen and itwill go from a when, not an if.
So the other thing for foundersto think about is, how are you
gonna stay alive between now andthen?
How are you gonna pay your billsbetween now and then?
If you believe in the technologyso much, if you believe in your
product or service so much, thenit's your responsibility, I
guess, to kind of like keep aneye on which industries, which
(19:50):
customers, which buyer profilesshould you be going to now.
Knowing that in a 5 to 10 yearwindow, everyone's gonna be
knocking on the door.
Like, look at the Android XRglasses coming out, you look at
Meta with Ray-Ban and withProject Orion.
These are going to be theplatform of the future! Like
that is so obvious to me, andI'm sure it is to you, Nathan
right?
And everyone listening to thisor watching this it is a matter
(20:11):
of time.
So, I still believe that nomatter what anyone says about
the XR industry, it's only amatter of time before these
become very standard.
I don't know whether it's gonnatake 5 years, 10 years, 20, but
it will.
So again, in terms of thattension, that's something to
keep in mind.
Nathan C Bowser (20:26):
Oh my gosh, so many gems in there.
Just a quick recap.
I love that when I asked aboutthe tension between ROI and
learning that you brought usback to who is the customer,
what are they trying to do?
What is their actual situation?
Which any innovator should knowis typically the best answer to
(20:51):
any of those problems, right?
If you're curious about how todo it, go talk to the customers.
So thank you for bringing usback there.
And then, love this data pointon could be, should be, must be
as a continuum for culturaladoption and understanding of
innovative technologies.
(21:11):
And you and I have been enjoyingvirtual reality since the Gear
VR era, but wow! For only a fewpeople has it been a must-use
kind of technology.
It's currently like rocketscientists and microbiologists
and therapists.
It's like incredibly practicaland/or incredibly entertaining.
(21:36):
I was just at AWE and I have totell you the number of active
world asynchronous multiplayergames using mixed reality,
whether it was like a Quest 3headset or in the Snap
Spectacles were just so fun!And, dream Park, specifically
(21:57):
Aidan Wolf's DreamPark, was thisgigantic like Mario-type world
that you could go and interactwith and play.
And the barrier to start wasthey literally hand you a
headset with no straps.
So you just hold it to your facewhere it's comfortable.
And they said, this is yourinteraction.
Like just touch things with yourhand.
(22:18):
That's it.
And like you don't need it.
But it is so easy and so fun.
The joy and the like value ofimmersive play, just like
rockets to the top!
Alex Rühl (22:29):
You've just touched on an amazing point there, which
is like a lot of people don'tthink about the number one thing
you can do to get more customersis to reduce the friction,
right?
The friction can be somethinglike making your interactions
really easy, making the barrierto access it really easy.
Making it affordable,considering the ROI that
person's gonna get, bringingdown friction.
That's also such an amazing kindof thing to point out.
Nathan C Bowser (22:49):
And the reducing friction approach, if
you're doing it well, doesn'tmean you have to build more.
It usually means build lessbetter.
Alex Rühl (22:59):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (22:59):
You're just in the middle of a transition.
You've left one notable career.
You're headed off into the nextone.
The show is called The Glow Up,right?
That is a rebirth, are-imagining, a transformation
of sorts.
We use it to talk about likeshort term goals.
So I'm curious, for Alex Rühland CATS ARE NOT PEAS what's a
(23:23):
big glow up that you're lookingto make in the next six months
or so?
Alex Rühl (23:26):
Ooh, what a great time to be asking this question!
And actually, selfishly, like aninteresting time capsule because
I'll be able to revisit this insix months and see whether what
I said I wanted to do isactually what I ended up doing
slash did still want to do.
So yeah, I am in a massivetransitional time.
I'm actually taking a break,which is the first break I've
(23:47):
had since that aforementionedquarter-life crisis in 2015.
So 10 years of working solidlyin this industry.
I feel like I've just aboutearned a proper rest.
So I'm gonna have some muchneeded relax and recharge time.
And then in terms of what'snext, to your point, like I feel
like I started my career as akind of a tinkerer, someone that
(24:11):
just wanted to learn how to dothings for the VR headset,
someone that liked to makestuff.
I built my kind of online brandaround the, the phrase Alex
Makes VR.
And I've joked with my friendsover the last couple of years,
you know I mean, technically Iam still making things, but I'm
personally not really making theVR anymore.
So I've moved into a space whereI'm more doing that kind of,
(24:34):
that top level advisory around,actually even before you spend a
penny on this technology, how isit gonna help your company?
How is it going to help thepeople that you are rolling out
to?
What's the value of it?
Helping people understand that.
And then also on the other side,for creators, helping them
understand how are you going tomake your work reach an
(24:54):
audience?
How are you going to think aboutthe distribution of your, like
your products or services?
Not just the fact that it'sreally cool because yes, it
might be really cool! But if itdoesn't get shown to anyone or
if it doesn't reach the audienceyou intend then you know,
potentially kind of like youare, you're selling yourself
short.
So I would like to think that mynext challenge is to continue
(25:17):
helping those who are still atthe beginning of that journey,
learn how to crack theenterprise nut.
Especially on the distributionside of things, I'm really
excited to see that Apple haveobviously just rolled out an
update for Vision Pro that isgonna help a lot more creators
be able to kind of export theirstuff and, and kind of load it
onto the Vision Pro.
(25:37):
So that's reducing barrier toentry like there.
You know, so many things, butmainly I'm thinking I'm in a
phase of my career where I wouldprobably like to be"giving
back." Just more like I'm tiredand I wanna use all of the stuff
I've learned over 10 years tojust impart to everyone else.
Flash forward a year and I'mlike, so I've got a new piece
out
Nathan C Bowser (25:58):
I've actually made a headset.
Alex, I love this! Labels andwords are really interesting.
Alex Makes VR, Alex has beenmaking VR happen at literally
some of the highest levels forsome of the largest
corporations, like on theplanet.
(26:19):
And that somehow, whether it'scapitalism, whether it's a ADHD.
Who knows?
Whether it's imposter syndrome,the not doing the task of
physically coding the VR feels alittle different than tying a
business case, an enterprise,like return on investment
(26:43):
together with a strategy thatlike actually makes it happen in
the world.
It's very interesting, to likeyou through your curiosity,
through your experience, throughthis trial and error, through
these 10 years in innovation,that there is still some of that
like doing tasking deadlining,built into like the value of
(27:08):
"making VR" even though thatstrategic, that research, that
discovery, right?
Like last couple inches of datathat you need to connect a user
to a technology to a businessplan is, the strategy and the
research and that understandingof the customer is what gets the
(27:31):
value.
Alex Rühl (27:32):
Love that! Do you know what?
This is, this is perfect.
Can we do this every week?
I'll fire my therapist.
Nathan C Bowser (27:37):
Hell yeah!
Alex Rühl (27:37):
That's actually what I came here for.
I needed the affirmation.
I needed the validation.
I'm all here for it! I do seeexactly what you're pointing at
there.
I do think that there's probablya bit of a yeah, being aware of
just under capitalism the peoplethat do the least work it seems
and sit in the kind of cushiestroles tend to get the most
money, the most glory, and I dothink that there is probably
(27:59):
sometimes a bit of a disconnectbetween the people actually
physically doing the work,right?
So maybe that's where thatembedded comes.
But I do like the reframe,"AlexMakes VR...
Happen."
Nathan C Bowser (28:10):
"Alex Makes VR...
Profitable." I feel like there'sa whole series on this.
Okay.
This has been amazing! We'resort of blazing through the
questions, we're blazing throughthe ADHD.
You're on this journey.
You're resting, you'rerecharging, you're getting ready
for the next thing.
How do you measure the impact,that you're making?
(28:31):
How do you know that you've madeit when you're on an amorphous
journey like this and whenyou're looking, from this moment
of rest and future, how do youset that goal?
Alex Rühl (28:42):
Yeah, it's such an interesting point around the
"made it" mentality, right?
And I feel like anyone on thefounder's journey will be
thinking in their head, when Ido this, I've made it.
When I achieve this, I'll havemade it.
When I make this much money,when I have this person as a
client, when I have this manyLinkedIn followers, when I've
done this talk on this stage.
(29:03):
As much as I've been very modestup until now, let me take a
second to be slightlyegotistical.
I can tell you without a shadowof a doubt, that if you make, if
you tie your worth and youridentity to milestones such as
money or success in a kind of avery traditional sense, you'll
(29:23):
never ever feel fulfillment fromthat.
I remember in 2019 doing a TEDTalk, earning my first six
figures, making a massive onlineproduct, I premiered a piece at
Cannes Film Festival.
Flash forward a few years Ipremiered at Venice.
I got this job at PwC.
These are all things that mostpeople starting out in their
(29:45):
journey would look at and go,that's when you've made it! When
you've made that much cash, whenyou've been on that stage, when
you've premiered at thatfestival like, that's when
you've made it! And the truthis, I promise you now, the most
that I've ever felt like I'vequote unquote,"made it" the most
happy I've been in my career,like the most fulfilled, the
most energized.
(30:06):
Was like when I first started mycompany and I was grinding and I
was like showing up at thesekind of events as a nobody quote
unquote, and I was just makingfriends and I was talking about
how much passion I had for thisindustry and I started learning
stuff and I started sharingthose learnings.
Those for me feel like I canlook back and say.
(30:27):
Genuinely, those were thehappiest memories that I've had
so far in this decade longcareer.
So I think my version of makingit now is finding things that
genuinely make me feel happy andenergized.
And I promise you, if you'relistening to this and you're
still chasing, I mean obviouslyeveryone's gotta eat, everyone's
got financial dependence andlike financial goals, so ain't
(30:48):
no shade if you wanna be chasingthat milli, but just know that
the milli is not gonna make youhappy, right?
What you are doing on aday-to-day basis, what your
journey is like, who you areconnecting with, who you are
working with, who you surroundyourself by, what are the things
that are making youfizzy-brained as a friend of
mine would say, these are thethings that mean you've made it.
Nathan C Bowser (31:10):
I don't know if I can talk anymore on this
episode.
That was so good! I love it,Alex! Okay.
To take a minute, one of thethings that we do on The Glow Up
is we make time and space for ashout-out or a community
spotlight.
In all of your time in thespace, are there organizations,
people doing good work, thatcould use a little bit of extra
(31:32):
attention that you'd like toshare your spotlight with?
Alex Rühl (31:34):
Absolutely! I am gonna shout-out a company in the
UK called Virtual Umbrella.
It's a small kind of independentcompany run by two of the most
amazing humans, Bertie andSammy.
They are the people that I metwhen I very first started in
this industry.
The most genuine, kind,brilliant people.
(31:55):
They are the unsung invisibleheroes of a lot of the larger
scale VR deployments andexhibitions.
They help, for example, likefilm festivals with the
logistics of how to showcase VRin a way that is sustainable and
also come on the ground andactually help solve those big
technical challenges thatundoubtedly happen when you've
got a crap ton of headsets allin one place.
(32:18):
They've certainly helped us at,me as CATS ARE NOT PEAS back in
the day, but also in my PwCcapacity and helping roll out VR
training to like hundreds if notthousands of people across our
organization.
They are just the most down toearth and most brilliant people.
If I go back to me saying Iwanna help people actually
connect their work, theirproducts, their services with
(32:38):
the end customer.
Virtual Umbrella tend to be likefor me, that kind of middle
piece.
They will help you actually getit out there.
They will help you deploy, theywill help you showcase and
they're just brilliant! Sothat's my shout-out.
Nathan C Bowser (32:50):
Heck yeah! Virtual Umbrella! You reminded
me in your story how manyprojects I've been on where the
core piece is like a creativetechnologist.
With a really niche set ofskills and understanding who is
willing to get into like theAPI-level mess of it all to make
(33:13):
sure something happens and that,remembering that like even at
some of the largest three letterconsultancies, there might be a
crack team of some really geekycreatives, who are helping make
everything, move through.
And like when when you'rethinking about making that
innovation journey, that nextleap, do you need, a giant
(33:37):
player or do you need the rightutility team, to help you get
that core last mile stuff lockedin?
It's a good thing to askyourself, right?
Alex Rühl (33:48):
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more.
Nathan C Bowser (33:50):
The value's not always with the star power, it's
with that connection to thecustomer.
And if that star has yourconnection, like by all means,
but if they don't, there's allsorts of ways to get there.
Alex Rühl (34:03):
Yep.
Nathan C Bowser (34:04):
Alex Rühl, it's been so great to talk with you.
In this expansive new phase withCATS ARE NOT PEAS, is there
anything that you're lookingfor, whether it's inspiration,
whether it's research, whetherit's partners?
Alex Rühl (34:17):
I am always on the lookout for people that are
doing interesting things withthis technology.
Some of the coolest stuff that Ihave ever seen happen in this
industry is like the one manbands or the one woman bands
that are just out there with afew headsets doing the kind of
most specific things possible.
(34:37):
Like there was this woman in theUK who ran a company called VR
Therapies.
And I remember seeing on aWhatsApp group that she
essentially made a young child'sdying wish come true because she
loaded on some underwatercontent and took a VR headset to
a hospital and she got to liveout, this little kid got to live
out her dream of being a mermaidbefore she died and just like in
(34:58):
this day and age when war isimminent and AI is taking over
the world, like it's storieslike that that make me get up in
the morning.
So I'm always looking for peopledoing amazing, beautiful things
with this technology.
And other than that, I just loveto hear from people that are
keeping on in this industry.
So please feel free to reach outto me.
(35:19):
I'm Alex Makes VR on all theplatforms.
Nathan C Bowser (35:22):
Oh my goodness! There is not a better place to
end it.
Alex Rühl, founder CATS ARE NOTPEAS.
Alex Makes VR Happen.
Alex Makes VR Valuable.
Alex Makes VR Connected to theCustomers.
We have learned so much aboutdoing business at scale.
(35:43):
Doing business as humans andactually finding a path to value
for immersive and innovationtechnologies.
Thank you so much for joiningus!
Alex Rühl (35:54):
Thank you so much and just thank you for all the
amazing work you do in thisindustry!
Nathan C Bowser (35:58):
Thank you so much!
I'm Nathan C and I am so pleased to be
talking with Alex Rühl.
Alex, thanks for joining me onThe Glow Up today.
Alex Rühl (00:06):
Thank you so much for having me! It makes my heart
glow to be here!
Nathan C Bowser (00:11):
Oh, wow!
Alex Rühl (00:12):
And I'm done!
Nathan C Bowser (00:13):
Don't stop! Don't stop! Love it.
So Alex, you have done so muchin innovation.
I hate to even try to summarizeit myself.
Could you introduce yourself toThe Glow Up audience and tell us
a little bit about what you doin innovation?
Alex Rühl (00:27):
Oh, that is a big question.
I guess my innovation journey,well I think technically it
probably started when I was akid and my parents were obsessed
with every new gadget.
Including, for example, my dadwas telling me recently that
when he started his web designcompany, the modems in the UK
were not built to send filetransfers internationally.
So he was one of the firstpeople to go out and find an
(00:48):
internet provider and a modemprovider from across the globe
because the UK just was not goodenough at the time.
So shout out to them for theinnovation start! But then I
guess my own kind of career tooka dive into the innovation world
back in 2015 when I had a bit ofan existential crisis, bit of a
(01:08):
quarter life crisis as one doesin their mid-twenties.
Decided to quit my job intelevision, move to Canada, and
had no clue what I was gonna do.
And at the time, this was whenthe new VR headsets were coming
out the first new wave ofconsumer headsets.
So I believe at that point itwas probably the first version
(01:28):
of the Rift or the Developer Kitand Google Cardboard and things
like that.
And yeah, I just rememberputting that on my face for the
first time and thinking, how onearth do people create content
for this thing?
I wanna know everything aboutthis new technology.
What is it?
What are people doing with it?
How are people creating for it?
And from there, I essentiallyjust dove straight into the VR
(01:50):
industry.
I spent a good seven yearsbuilding content specifically
for virtual reality.
And then broader than thatlooking at immersive content in
general, whether that be 360 formore traditional devices like
iPads or desktop or AR content.
And then, alongside that journeyI was always interested in new
tech, such as like blockchainand AI.
(02:10):
But that didn't really factorinto my life in a professional
way until I joined PwC as thehead of at the time metaverse
technologies, but then becamethe head of emerging
technologies after being therefor a year.
And what that meant is that Iwas like all of a sudden in
charge of looking at not onlyhow VR and AR could impact
enterprises around the world,but also how businesses could
(02:34):
kind of use newer technologieslike blockchain, quantum
computing, you know, how AI wasgonna transform all of these
technologies and how businessescould essentially make the most
of these technologies.
Nathan C Bowser (02:45):
Wow! I love that in just a few minutes time,
we went from dial-up modems thatcan't call internationally to
running the practice area forlike most deep tech and
innovation for a consultancylike PwC.
Alex Rühl (03:04):
Yeah.
Pretty mad when you say it likethat.
Nathan C Bowser (03:06):
Hey but you did it! One of the things that you
mentioned that I am endlesslygeeky about is, everybody who
has like a startup or is ininnovation, is always trying to
crack that enterprise nut,right?
And the kinds of clients thatyou're working with as a
(03:27):
consultant, where you're helpingthese very large organizations
understand, adopt, and get valueout of any number, from
metaverse to blockchain, seemstotally fraught.
And there are thousands andthousands of people out there in
the world trying to do it.
And one of the gaps that I'vealways found is the connection
(03:50):
between the technology and thevalue or the use case is usually
one of the biggest determinantsof if a product's gonna be get
done, you also have to havestakeholders and there's some
other parts to that digitaltransformation part.
Can you talk about the kinds ofcore problems that you help
these large organizations solveby bringing in these kinds of
(04:12):
technologies?
Alex Rühl (04:13):
Yeah, absolutely! And it's interesting to hear you
say that because in so manyways, I feel like enterprise is
so much easier to crack thanconsumers.
Especially for a technology likevirtual reality, right?
Like plot twist! Hot take! And Ithink the hardest bit is, to
your point, if you don'tunderstand what these
(04:34):
large-scale businesses' coreproblems are, then you're
probably going to find itdifficult to break in.
But once you know what they areand how your particular
solution, your emerging techsolution can solve it, it's much
easier to build a sustainable,scalable, high-profit business.
That's my opinion.
So to, to kind of I guess,directly answer your question,
(04:56):
you know, in enterprise reallywhat it comes down to, it's so
simple.
It's how is your product orservice making a company more
money?
How is it saving more money?
Or how is it saving time?
Because time is money in thesecompanies, right?
So are you reducing cost?
Are you reducing the amount oftime it takes to do something?
Or are you creating a newrevenue stream?
(05:18):
Are you helping increase profit?
So with something like AI forexample, most people will hear
most commonly that AI iscreating efficiencies.
And what that really means is itis reducing the cost and
reducing the amount of time ittakes to do things, right?
And in business terms, that issaving money, especially for
time-based businesses.
(05:38):
Some businesses areproduct-based and so therefore
they'd probably be more focusedon trying to sell more or create
more profit or create newrevenue streams rather than, I
mean everyone wants to save timeand money, but for time-based
businesses such asconsultancies, like we
ourselves, I say"we" as PwC,I've actually just left.
This is my first interviewactually as not a PwC employee.
Nathan C Bowser (06:00):
Another Glow Up exclusive!
Alex Rühl (06:03):
It is, it is! Thank you for having me as me and not
just my title.
You know, there's always thatmoment when you leave a big job
like that where you think like,do people still wanna talk to
me?
Thank you Nathan for stillwanting to talk to me!
Nathan C Bowser (06:16):
Oh my goodness! You've started out on a couple
really interesting tracksbecause, enterprise is easy if
you understand the value islike, fantastic! And then this
idea...
in the B2B marketing space, wetalk all the time about even in
B2B, people still buy frompeople, people still like
(06:38):
transact on relationships.
So it's very interesting assomebody who's been incredibly
you know successful in buildingpowerful relationships and
partnerships at the level thatyou have, that you still might
have a little bit of that, shallwe say, founder's doubt?
I don't even wanna say impostersyndrome'cause like you own this
(06:59):
space, like Alex Does VR, right?
But it's super cool to see that,like even a very accomplished,
experienced innovator mightstill have some of those
feelings, no matter wherethey're looking from.
Alex Rühl (07:14):
Oh! That is a very Glow Up themed conversation I
guess.
I once watched this reallyamazing Simon Sinek talk about
this exact concept, which isthat he gives the analogy of
this very highly influentialkind of character.
I think like some kind ofgeneral or something, who had a
very fancy title.
Simon talks about the fact that,this person is flown private to
(07:37):
an event and they have a VIPexperience when they come into
event and there's a green roomspecifically for him before he
goes on stage to talk.
And that same person comes backto talk at that same event like
two years later, but he doesn'thold that same position anymore.
And he flies coach and he has tofly there himself.
He has to get his own taxi tothe event.
(07:57):
He doesn't have a private greenroom, and he has to get his own
coffee.
And the point was that, youcan't get too high on your own
supply, right?
Because ultimately yes, to yourpoint, you can accomplish a lot
and you can have a lot ofexperience, a lot of knowledge,
but to some extent theprivileges that you are
afforded, especially as you workin these slightly more corporate
(08:17):
high powered jobs it is reservedfor the title, you know?
It is reserved for the positionthat you hold.
And this is going down a wholenother rabbit hole, so feel free
to pull this one back.
Like, I unfortunately believethat most people are quite
transactional and it's reallyobvious when someone wants to
talk to you because they wantsomething from you rather than
actually to build a genuine,authentic connection.
(08:37):
That's one thing I've alwaysloved about you, like I've known
you for years.
I feel like I must have knownyou or must have come across you
at AWE before I even got myposition at PwC.
But you know, these kind ofrelationships that last kind of
like throughout the years arebuilt on genuine kind of shared
passion, right?
Rather than tit for tat.
I want something from you.
(08:58):
You want something from me, youknow?
Nathan C Bowser (08:59):
As somebody who has been like a thought leader,
a consultant who has beenguiding these larger groups
about how they can think aboutthese tools, that journey of
like expertise, that journey ofleadership, that journey of
relationship, comes out in thestory that you tell.
The wrapper of like, what is thebusiness model or like how do we
(09:22):
interact with clients?
And the thing that I wanna pullout is it's so obvious why you
have been successful in all ofthese places is that you have
that focus on, what are thosecore things that these
businesses and people arelooking for, but that, those
relationships that you havebuilt are one of those things
(09:42):
that allow you to drive thesekinds of tough projects and
these big new ideas intocompanies because you are more
than just that transactional andthat you can actually empathize
and see inside what's going on.
I'm glad we went there.
Good! Continuing on this idea oflearning from the enterprise and
(10:03):
how we do innovation, I'mcurious if you can talk to any
times where on this innovationjourney with your customer
you've learned something about aproject, you had an idea, you
started to take it out there,and whether it was opportunities
or challenges you had to like,change your approach.
Like how do you guide, how doyou approach this?
(10:25):
You've just made a huge promiseto a huge company.
There's huge expectations.
How do you guide thoseconversations and talk about
change and learning in such anelevated environment?
Alex Rühl (10:36):
I'm a big believer on hardcore honesty from the
start.
And I think when you work in ourfields you have to prepare
someone, you have to preparecustomers for the fact that they
might spend what will be quite asignificant amount of money on
(10:56):
something that yes is stilltechnically experimental and you
can give as many, frameworksaround like how you're going to
make the project successful andwhat the core kind of KPIs are
going to be of the project thatwill be closely monitored.
You can talk about a theoreticalreturn on investment that they
could expect where the project,you know, to kind of be
(11:17):
implemented correctly andsucceed.
But ultimately my big thing isif someone's gonna spend money,
especially in organizations evenif they're like the biggest
organizations in the world thathave so much money, every penny
that you are taking forinnovation, you are taking away
from people's wages from all theother basic runnings of that
(11:38):
company.
So, I'm a big believer in sayingright up front here's the
reality of working with atechnology like VR.
Here's the reality of runninglike a kind of an alpha
blockchain project.
I am a big believer that thatthen leads to a much better
working relationship.
It means that if you do facechallenges or things come up
along the way, you'vepre-prepared them for that fact.
(12:00):
And also just really goodstakeholder communication that I
would say the big differencebetween working with small
businesses versus mammoth hugeglobal organizations is just the
level of stakeholders and theamount of bureaucracy that goes
into any decision.
So when you start to work atthat kind of level, you just
need to understand that likeyour job is to essentially be
(12:22):
kind of making sure everyone ison the same page.
When people aren't on the samepage, it's your job to
facilitate a conversation.
It's your job to kind of useyour communication skills to try
and work through any issues toget everyone back on the same
page so you can move forward.
I would say that, for mostbusinesses trying to break into
enterprise, that's just onething to be aware of.
I'm thinking of a particularproject that we built actually
(12:44):
internally, although it's nowused with clients, but it was
when the Apple Vision Pro firstcame out.
And there was a lot of talkabout the fact that, if we do
this, if we build this product,which we believe is going to be
like massively impactful acrossthe organization, it's gonna
help a lot of clients.
It's gonna be fascinating, butit's going to be one of the
first enterprise apps on thisnew device that no one has
(13:07):
tested before.
No one's ever built for itbefore'cause it's only just come
out! So making everyone aware weare gonna invest this money.
This is what we hope to do withthat.
This is what the roadmap lookslike.
If it fails though, we will havea load of learnings.
We will put as many things inplace to make sure it doesn't
fail.
And thankfully I can happily saythat it didn't fail.
But you know, we went into thatbeing like, this could fail
(13:27):
horribly because we've neverbuilt for this thing.
And we had a very specifictimeline'cause we were launching
this app at VivaTech last year.
So, yeah and we ended up doingit.
That project is calledGeospatial Insights.
It's a PwC product thatessentially allows you to map
geospatial data on a 3Denvironment, so you can do
things like logistics planningor climate mapping.
(13:49):
You know, looking at what floodrisks might be in a certain area
or, for big event planning, howcan you look where you might
need crowd management or extratransport links et cetera.
Really cool tool.
So glad we did it.
But just an example of a projectwhere you go into it saying
let's just make sure everyone isaware that this is a new device.
This is a totally new thing weare doing.
We are working with a new set oftools.
(14:10):
We are building for a newheadset that no one's ever
really used before.
There's loads of things thatcould go wrong, but if it works,
oh it's gonna be magic.
And it was!
Nathan C Bowser (14:20):
I really appreciate that, thank you.
There's a little bit of atension that I'm really
enjoying, right?
Because the first kind ofdirection that we started in
like enterprise is easy'causeyou gotta be focused on value
and return.
And now we're like, wellinnovation is a journey and you
gotta set expectations and bepatient.
(14:41):
And I feel like that's like acontinuum or even like a little
bit of the client relationshipjourney in innovation.
Like one is a starting point andone is the endpoint.
How do you balance those twolike really key elements of a
relationship like this?
(15:02):
Like on one, I remember a coupleyears ago in Vienna for AWE, in
the enterprise program, therewas some really compelling
conversations, right?
That I believe it was aninsurance company was talking
about their threshold for ROIand that they were totally
willing to spend millions ofdollars to get a 10x return.
(15:28):
But that some of the challengesthey had with like learning and
innovation and like early VRtraining was they're like, okay,
we can buy a bunch of headsets,we can do a deployment, we can
do some training, and maybe a$200,000 investment will lead to
a$500,000 return.
I'm a global insurance company.
(15:49):
That's not enough.
Alex Rühl (15:52):
Yep.
Nathan C Bowser (15:52):
Right?
So like, I hear you on thelearning and growing, but
there's also this challenge oflike how do you turn learning
and growing into value, or howdo you like balance those ideas
in the same project?
And I don't know if there's ananswer, but if somebody knows
you might!
Alex Rühl (16:08):
Yeah, I so appreciate your faith in me! No
it's interesting, right?
And there are definitely someindustries and there are some
I'll say buyer profiles thatjust won't kind of, they won't
want to do the riskier stuffbecause they do want the massive
return and they want theguaranteed return.
(16:29):
And it needs to be able to scaleand needs to be able to scale
fast.
So in that, I'm empathetic,right?
Insurance is like a really lowmargin business as well.
So in terms of, they really doneed to get a massive ROI
generally speaking to justifycosts.
But if you look at like a sectorlike retail, for example, retail
(16:52):
is it's almost like you aredoing the B2B bit so that they
could do the B2C bit.
And there's a lot more kind oflike pressure on innovating
because that's what theirconsumers expect.
We did kind of strategicadvisory work for a large retail
brand.
I think they're a global brand,but specifically based in the
UK.
And we were looking at theirdemographic was relatively an
(17:14):
older, married woman was theircore demographic.
And they were saying that'samazing and that's fine for now,
but ultimately we are notintaking any younger
generations, right?
We are not seeing our customerof the future coming up
underneath our typical buyer.
And that's a problem because in10 years time we need a younger
(17:38):
demographic to also be a corebuyer of our services and we
need to pre-plan for the future.
So I would say, you know, thattension is all about A) If you
are speaking to someone whoisn't in the right industry,
doesn't have that kind of riskappetite, it just doesn't make
financial sense for theircompany, like that's the wrong
person to be selling to.
I'm a big fan of don't sell theunsellable.
(18:00):
Focus on people that are closerto the yes, they know that they
want to innovate, they knowthey've got money to spend in
that.
Or look at these kind of moreinnovative sectors.
That's what I would say.
I mean, it's kind of interestingactually talking about this in
the age of AI because, again,interesting that I'm bringing up
so much PwC literature afterI've literally just left, but I
guess it's fresh on the mind!But PwC released a report, I
(18:23):
think in May, might have beenearly June, that looked at
essentially what AI was going todo to jobs.
And they did, I think it'sliterally called"The AI Jobs
Report" and they released thefirst version of it last year
and then they've done anotherone this year.
And you can compare what thedata is saying now versus last
year and last year there waslike a much lower percentage of
industries that thought thatthey needed to adopt AI.
(18:46):
And this year it was a hundredpercent.
A hundred percent of industriesare adopting it.
A hundred percent of industriesare investing in it.
A hundred percent of industriesknow that they need it.
That's really interestingbecause all of a sudden you're
seeing an emerging tech what wasan emerging technology all of a
sudden penetrate so kind ofdeeply that no matter who you
(19:07):
are as a company, you need toinvest.
It's not a matter of when.
And I feel like with newertechnologies such as VR, such as
AR, such as blockchain, such asquantum, these are much further
out on their journey compared toAI.
Like they're nowhere near readyto be like business as usual,
like AI is.
But they will go on a similarjourney where at some point the
(19:29):
tipping point will happen and itwill go from a when, not an if.
So the other thing for foundersto think about is, how are you
gonna stay alive between now andthen?
How are you gonna pay your billsbetween now and then?
If you believe in the technologyso much, if you believe in your
product or service so much, thenit's your responsibility, I
guess, to kind of like keep aneye on which industries, which
(19:50):
customers, which buyer profilesshould you be going to now.
Knowing that in a 5 to 10 yearwindow, everyone's gonna be
knocking on the door.
Like, look at the Android XRglasses coming out, you look at
Meta with Ray-Ban and withProject Orion.
These are going to be theplatform of the future! Like
that is so obvious to me, andI'm sure it is to you, Nathan
right?
And everyone listening to thisor watching this it is a matter
(20:11):
of time.
So, I still believe that nomatter what anyone says about
the XR industry, it's only amatter of time before these
become very standard.
I don't know whether it's gonnatake 5 years, 10 years, 20, but
it will.
So again, in terms of thattension, that's something to
keep in mind.
Nathan C Bowser (20:26):
Oh my gosh, so many gems in there.
Just a quick recap.
I love that when I asked aboutthe tension between ROI and
learning that you brought usback to who is the customer,
what are they trying to do?
What is their actual situation?
Which any innovator should knowis typically the best answer to
(20:51):
any of those problems, right?
If you're curious about how todo it, go talk to the customers.
So thank you for bringing usback there.
And then, love this data pointon could be, should be, must be
as a continuum for culturaladoption and understanding of
innovative technologies.
(21:11):
And you and I have been enjoyingvirtual reality since the Gear
VR era, but wow! For only a fewpeople has it been a must-use
kind of technology.
It's currently like rocketscientists and microbiologists
and therapists.
It's like incredibly practicaland/or incredibly entertaining.
(21:36):
I was just at AWE and I have totell you the number of active
world asynchronous multiplayergames using mixed reality,
whether it was like a Quest 3headset or in the Snap
Spectacles were just so fun!And, dream Park, specifically
(21:57):
Aidan Wolf's DreamPark, was thisgigantic like Mario-type world
that you could go and interactwith and play.
And the barrier to start wasthey literally hand you a
headset with no straps.
So you just hold it to your facewhere it's comfortable.
And they said, this is yourinteraction.
Like just touch things with yourhand.
(22:18):
That's it.
And like you don't need it.
But it is so easy and so fun.
The joy and the like value ofimmersive play, just like
rockets to the top!
Alex Rühl (22:29):
You've just touched on an amazing point there, which
is like a lot of people don'tthink about the number one thing
you can do to get more customersis to reduce the friction,
right?
The friction can be somethinglike making your interactions
really easy, making the barrierto access it really easy.
Making it affordable,considering the ROI that
person's gonna get, bringingdown friction.
That's also such an amazing kindof thing to point out.
Nathan C Bowser (22:49):
And the reducing friction approach, if
you're doing it well, doesn'tmean you have to build more.
It usually means build lessbetter.
Alex Rühl (22:59):
Yeah.
Nathan C Bowser (22:59):
You're just in the middle of a transition.
You've left one notable career.
You're headed off into the nextone.
The show is called The Glow Up,right?
That is a rebirth, are-imagining, a transformation
of sorts.
We use it to talk about likeshort term goals.
So I'm curious, for Alex Rühland CATS ARE NOT PEAS what's a
(23:23):
big glow up that you're lookingto make in the next six months
or so?
Alex Rühl (23:26):
Ooh, what a great time to be asking this question!
And actually, selfishly, like aninteresting time capsule because
I'll be able to revisit this insix months and see whether what
I said I wanted to do isactually what I ended up doing
slash did still want to do.
So yeah, I am in a massivetransitional time.
I'm actually taking a break,which is the first break I've
(23:47):
had since that aforementionedquarter-life crisis in 2015.
So 10 years of working solidlyin this industry.
I feel like I've just aboutearned a proper rest.
So I'm gonna have some muchneeded relax and recharge time.
And then in terms of what'snext, to your point, like I feel
like I started my career as akind of a tinkerer, someone that
(24:11):
just wanted to learn how to dothings for the VR headset,
someone that liked to makestuff.
I built my kind of online brandaround the, the phrase Alex
Makes VR.
And I've joked with my friendsover the last couple of years,
you know I mean, technically Iam still making things, but I'm
personally not really making theVR anymore.
So I've moved into a space whereI'm more doing that kind of,
(24:34):
that top level advisory around,actually even before you spend a
penny on this technology, how isit gonna help your company?
How is it going to help thepeople that you are rolling out
to?
What's the value of it?
Helping people understand that.
And then also on the other side,for creators, helping them
understand how are you going tomake your work reach an
(24:54):
audience?
How are you going to think aboutthe distribution of your, like
your products or services?
Not just the fact that it'sreally cool because yes, it
might be really cool! But if itdoesn't get shown to anyone or
if it doesn't reach the audienceyou intend then you know,
potentially kind of like youare, you're selling yourself
short.
So I would like to think that mynext challenge is to continue
(25:17):
helping those who are still atthe beginning of that journey,
learn how to crack theenterprise nut.
Especially on the distributionside of things, I'm really
excited to see that Apple haveobviously just rolled out an
update for Vision Pro that isgonna help a lot more creators
be able to kind of export theirstuff and, and kind of load it
onto the Vision Pro.
(25:37):
So that's reducing barrier toentry like there.
You know, so many things, butmainly I'm thinking I'm in a
phase of my career where I wouldprobably like to be"giving
back." Just more like I'm tiredand I wanna use all of the stuff
I've learned over 10 years tojust impart to everyone else.
Flash forward a year and I'mlike, so I've got a new piece
out
Nathan C Bowser (25:58):
I've actually made a headset.
Alex, I love this! Labels andwords are really interesting.
Alex Makes VR, Alex has beenmaking VR happen at literally
some of the highest levels forsome of the largest
corporations, like on theplanet.
(26:19):
And that somehow, whether it'scapitalism, whether it's a ADHD.
Who knows?
Whether it's imposter syndrome,the not doing the task of
physically coding the VR feels alittle different than tying a
business case, an enterprise,like return on investment
(26:43):
together with a strategy thatlike actually makes it happen in
the world.
It's very interesting, to likeyou through your curiosity,
through your experience, throughthis trial and error, through
these 10 years in innovation,that there is still some of that
like doing tasking deadlining,built into like the value of
(27:08):
"making VR" even though thatstrategic, that research, that
discovery, right?
Like last couple inches of datathat you need to connect a user
to a technology to a businessplan is, the strategy and the
research and that understandingof the customer is what gets the
(27:31):
value.
Alex Rühl (27:32):
Love that! Do you know what?
This is, this is perfect.
Can we do this every week?
I'll fire my therapist.
Nathan C Bowser (27:37):
Hell yeah!
Alex Rühl (27:37):
That's actually what I came here for.
I needed the affirmation.
I needed the validation.
I'm all here for it! I do seeexactly what you're pointing at
there.
I do think that there's probablya bit of a yeah, being aware of
just under capitalism the peoplethat do the least work it seems
and sit in the kind of cushiestroles tend to get the most
money, the most glory, and I dothink that there is probably
(27:59):
sometimes a bit of a disconnectbetween the people actually
physically doing the work,right?
So maybe that's where thatembedded comes.
But I do like the reframe,"AlexMakes VR...
Happen."
Nathan C Bowser (28:10):
"Alex Makes VR...
Profitable." I feel like there'sa whole series on this.
Okay.
This has been amazing! We'resort of blazing through the
questions, we're blazing throughthe ADHD.
You're on this journey.
You're resting, you'rerecharging, you're getting ready
for the next thing.
How do you measure the impact,that you're making?
(28:31):
How do you know that you've madeit when you're on an amorphous
journey like this and whenyou're looking, from this moment
of rest and future, how do youset that goal?
Alex Rühl (28:42):
Yeah, it's such an interesting point around the
"made it" mentality, right?
And I feel like anyone on thefounder's journey will be
thinking in their head, when Ido this, I've made it.
When I achieve this, I'll havemade it.
When I make this much money,when I have this person as a
client, when I have this manyLinkedIn followers, when I've
done this talk on this stage.
(29:03):
As much as I've been very modestup until now, let me take a
second to be slightlyegotistical.
I can tell you without a shadowof a doubt, that if you make, if
you tie your worth and youridentity to milestones such as
money or success in a kind of avery traditional sense, you'll
(29:23):
never ever feel fulfillment fromthat.
I remember in 2019 doing a TEDTalk, earning my first six
figures, making a massive onlineproduct, I premiered a piece at
Cannes Film Festival.
Flash forward a few years Ipremiered at Venice.
I got this job at PwC.
These are all things that mostpeople starting out in their
(29:45):
journey would look at and go,that's when you've made it! When
you've made that much cash, whenyou've been on that stage, when
you've premiered at thatfestival like, that's when
you've made it! And the truthis, I promise you now, the most
that I've ever felt like I'vequote unquote,"made it" the most
happy I've been in my career,like the most fulfilled, the
most energized.
(30:06):
Was like when I first started mycompany and I was grinding and I
was like showing up at thesekind of events as a nobody quote
unquote, and I was just makingfriends and I was talking about
how much passion I had for thisindustry and I started learning
stuff and I started sharingthose learnings.
Those for me feel like I canlook back and say.
(30:27):
Genuinely, those were thehappiest memories that I've had
so far in this decade longcareer.
So I think my version of makingit now is finding things that
genuinely make me feel happy andenergized.
And I promise you, if you'relistening to this and you're
still chasing, I mean obviouslyeveryone's gotta eat, everyone's
got financial dependence andlike financial goals, so ain't
(30:48):
no shade if you wanna be chasingthat milli, but just know that
the milli is not gonna make youhappy, right?
What you are doing on aday-to-day basis, what your
journey is like, who you areconnecting with, who you are
working with, who you surroundyourself by, what are the things
that are making youfizzy-brained as a friend of
mine would say, these are thethings that mean you've made it.
Nathan C Bowser (31:10):
I don't know if I can talk anymore on this
episode.
That was so good! I love it,Alex! Okay.
To take a minute, one of thethings that we do on The Glow Up
is we make time and space for ashout-out or a community
spotlight.
In all of your time in thespace, are there organizations,
people doing good work, thatcould use a little bit of extra
(31:32):
attention that you'd like toshare your spotlight with?
Alex Rühl (31:34):
Absolutely! I am gonna shout-out a company in the
UK called Virtual Umbrella.
It's a small kind of independentcompany run by two of the most
amazing humans, Bertie andSammy.
They are the people that I metwhen I very first started in
this industry.
The most genuine, kind,brilliant people.
(31:55):
They are the unsung invisibleheroes of a lot of the larger
scale VR deployments andexhibitions.
They help, for example, likefilm festivals with the
logistics of how to showcase VRin a way that is sustainable and
also come on the ground andactually help solve those big
technical challenges thatundoubtedly happen when you've
got a crap ton of headsets allin one place.
(32:18):
They've certainly helped us at,me as CATS ARE NOT PEAS back in
the day, but also in my PwCcapacity and helping roll out VR
training to like hundreds if notthousands of people across our
organization.
They are just the most down toearth and most brilliant people.
If I go back to me saying Iwanna help people actually
connect their work, theirproducts, their services with
(32:38):
the end customer.
Virtual Umbrella tend to be likefor me, that kind of middle
piece.
They will help you actually getit out there.
They will help you deploy, theywill help you showcase and
they're just brilliant! Sothat's my shout-out.
Nathan C Bowser (32:50):
Heck yeah! Virtual Umbrella! You reminded
me in your story how manyprojects I've been on where the
core piece is like a creativetechnologist.
With a really niche set ofskills and understanding who is
willing to get into like theAPI-level mess of it all to make
(33:13):
sure something happens and that,remembering that like even at
some of the largest three letterconsultancies, there might be a
crack team of some really geekycreatives, who are helping make
everything, move through.
And like when when you'rethinking about making that
innovation journey, that nextleap, do you need, a giant
(33:37):
player or do you need the rightutility team, to help you get
that core last mile stuff lockedin?
It's a good thing to askyourself, right?
Alex Rühl (33:48):
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more.
Nathan C Bowser (33:50):
The value's not always with the star power, it's
with that connection to thecustomer.
And if that star has yourconnection, like by all means,
but if they don't, there's allsorts of ways to get there.
Alex Rühl (34:03):
Yep.
Nathan C Bowser (34:04):
Alex Rühl, it's been so great to talk with you.
In this expansive new phase withCATS ARE NOT PEAS, is there
anything that you're lookingfor, whether it's inspiration,
whether it's research, whetherit's partners?
Alex Rühl (34:17):
I am always on the lookout for people that are
doing interesting things withthis technology.
Some of the coolest stuff that Ihave ever seen happen in this
industry is like the one manbands or the one woman bands
that are just out there with afew headsets doing the kind of
most specific things possible.
(34:37):
Like there was this woman in theUK who ran a company called VR
Therapies.
And I remember seeing on aWhatsApp group that she
essentially made a young child'sdying wish come true because she
loaded on some underwatercontent and took a VR headset to
a hospital and she got to liveout, this little kid got to live
out her dream of being a mermaidbefore she died and just like in
(34:58):
this day and age when war isimminent and AI is taking over
the world, like it's storieslike that that make me get up in
the morning.
So I'm always looking for peopledoing amazing, beautiful things
with this technology.
And other than that, I just loveto hear from people that are
keeping on in this industry.
So please feel free to reach outto me.
(35:19):
I'm Alex Makes VR on all theplatforms.
Nathan C Bowser (35:22):
Oh my goodness! There is not a better place to
end it.
Alex Rühl, founder CATS ARE NOTPEAS.
Alex Makes VR Happen.
Alex Makes VR Valuable.
Alex Makes VR Connected to theCustomers.
We have learned so much aboutdoing business at scale.
(35:43):
Doing business as humans andactually finding a path to value
for immersive and innovationtechnologies.
Thank you so much for joiningus!
Alex Rühl (35:54):
Thank you so much and just thank you for all the
amazing work you do in thisindustry!
Nathan C Bowser (35:58):
Thank you so much!
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