December 1, 2025 • 19 mins
Death by a thousand clicks. That is the problem facing clinicians who spend hours navigating scattered tools for documentation, billing, guidelines, and decision-making. One doctor-turned-founder accidentally built 50 apps trying to solve it before realizing he was an entrepreneur.
PJ Park is co-founder, chairman, and chief product AI officer at Avo MD. He came to the United States from Korea about ten years ago and joined a residency program barely able to speak English. On his first day, a senior asked him to call a dying patient's family. He missed everything.
That experience drove him to start building software on his own to make his "imperfect doctor" perfect. He built app after app during residency until he had created 50 different tools. His friends finally told him he should start a company. He had to Google what that even meant.
Avo MD is an AI clinical copilot platform for clinicians. Unlike scattered point solutions that each solve one narrow problem, Avo MD builds shared components that work like Lego blocks across workflows. The platform handles admission, discharge, rounding, and charting by combining patient data, hospital guidelines, and evidence-based protocols. AI makes recommendations, then doctors discuss and decide. The goal is a meaningful doctor-AI relationship rather than just more clicks.
Highlights from PJ Park at Avo MD:
- Built 50 apps during residency before friends told him to start a company. He had to Google what a startup was. His only goal was making his imperfect doctor perfect.
- Partners with content and IP companies like MCG for evidence-based guidelines. Turnaround time is 10 days versus six months to a year for larger companies. AI consumes proprietary guidelines to make better outcomes.
- His new iron triangle for healthcare: patients get better, doctors go home early, hospitals make more money.
His insight about the industry is that AI scribes are the first AI solution clinicians actually love because they were not built by administrators forcing compliance. But scribes only cover patient encounters. Most clinical care involves connecting dots between guidelines, protocols, documentation, and billing without any recording to transcribe. That is where Avo MD focuses.
Healthcare gets better when AI takes care of the technical checklists and lets humans do the thinking.
Live from HLTH 2025 - Watch on YouTube.
A "glow up" signifies a positive transformation, reflecting the journey of becoming a better, more successful version of oneself.
At The Tech Glow Up, we humanize the startup and innovation landscape by focusing on the essential aspects of the entrepreneurial journey. Groundbreaking ideas are often ahead of their time, making resilience and perseverance vital for founders and product leaders.
In our podcast, we engage with innovators to discuss their transformative ideas, the challenges they face, and how they create value for future success.
If you're a founder or product leader seeking your own glow up, or a seasoned entrepreneur with stories to share, we invite you to join our guest list via this link.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nathan C (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the HLTH Tech Glow Up.
I'm Nathan c and today I'mtalking with PJ of Avo, md.
PJ, thank you so much forjoining me.
Pj (00:10):
Great.
I'm PJ, one of co-founders andchairman and chief prop product
ai.
And nice being here.
we are working, I'm working oncore, a company called Avo MD.
This is the, AI platform,clinical copilot for clinicians.
Nathan C (00:24):
Mm-hmm.
Pj (00:25):
And then I have an international background from
Korea around 10 years ago.
I also a clinician from my side,Doctor Harvard Medical faculty,
but I decided to dedicate myselfto the intersection between AI
and medicine.
So excited about our future.
We are trying to build aplatform where all of their are
(00:47):
solving problems.
There are so many.
Problems in the world.
So, but in a scale of a way sothat, we are expecting and
scaling, like building solutionsand label like fashion in our
platform.
Nathan C (01:00):
I'm always very interested about people's origin
story, about why they begin anentrepreneurial journey.
Being a clinician is a full dayjob, right?
so I'm curious what.
Sparked the inspiration to startworking in AI and technology in
addition to, your otherpractice.
Pj (01:18):
Let's say I never really seen myself as an entrepreneur.
I mean, I never had a dream.
Or like, okay, I want to build acompany, CO, whatever.
I just want a doctor.
I be a doctor.
And then during, so I, I was anintern.
I came to the residency and thenof course I was not their
smartest doctor during theresidency, but there was a
(01:39):
language barrier.
The first day I was able, barelyable to speak English.
What I remember is that like mysenior was asking me to, Hey,
this patient is dying.
Contact the family and to letthem know that.
Oh my God.
Like of course I missedeverything.
Life happens.
Yeah.
yeah, so that be given mybackground on engineering, AI
research and ui ux, one of thething I was really focused on
(02:02):
was like, okay, buildingsoftwares on my own.
Let's keep some kind of likerelationship between app and
human doctor and then make mykind of imperfect doctor.
Perfect.
So that was my dream.
it was just hobby that wasdoing.
Since my residence develops, Iended up with like 50 different
apps.
(02:23):
Then some of them are featuredin the newspaper and everything.
So that it led me to Columbia,Machine learning research over
there.
Also, I was very interested inui, ux and then eventually I
noticed, my God, I cannot,what's the point of building 50
different apps?
Those kind of things actually.
Mm-hmm.
Still happening.
(02:43):
at that time I thought that wemight able to build a platform
where there are some.
Common, like shared comp.
Share the T between all of theseapplications so that we can
scale and solving more problems.
Best and faster and then I hadno idea what company is, but my
friends and my coworkers, andthen my future co-founders,
(03:05):
they're coming in and told methat, Hey, you should build the
company.
What does that even mean?
Like I started Googling and thenI thought that, okay, this might
be the only way I'm so excitedabout this project.
Only way to make it work is tomake it a business making money
so that this is sortself-sustaining.
This is how I started.
That's a little bit differentfrom his stories from others,
(03:27):
because I know that many peoplethis big dream of like, I wanna
make money.
I wanna like, make a bigbusiness change to the world.
Yeah.
I went little bit different way.
I,
Nathan C (03:36):
I love that.
Like the entrepreneurial spiritand the like, here's a problem
that I'm experiencing in my dayjob.
I'm just gonna go.
Sit you accidentally fix 50different problems.
And then people are like,"Hey,like, this is really like what
an entrepreneur does.
You should probably start acompany," I love that you were
the last one to know that youhad this entrepreneurial
(03:58):
mindset.
It was just like part of howyou're solving problems.
can we dive a little bit intothe solution with it?
AVO MD and, with the productthat you're working on now, and,
help me understand, you know,the health tech, audience, or
the tech glow up audiencedoesn't necessarily know a ton
about, I see healthtechnologies, I see.
So, if you can, kind ofintroduce, your product and,
Pj (04:20):
so let me, put it this way.
I mean, there are many differentsectors in healthcare, like
patient side and then the payerand everything.
I'm always focused on clinicalcare.
Improving clinical care and thenany.
Revenue improvement,inefficiency, issues in clinical
care where providers,clinicians, and nurses involved.
So focusing on that area, whatwe do is that there are so many
(04:46):
problems.
And then with complicatedworkflow, let's say I'm
automating a patient.
Like.
I'm assuming there are so manyAI technology over there.
so that, like, you're stilldoing all the like EHL, like
epic, like chart review clickingeverywhere.
Mm-hmm.
epic has some features.
You summarize some portion ofit.
Okay.
Now, some of clinical care ininvolve patients doctor
(05:09):
encounter so that you might usean AI scrub system, make a
report to enhance.
your clinical documentation, nowyou need to make some decision.
Your ology is imperfect and thenyou need to go to like UpToDate,
probably not Wikipedia and, andeverything, and there's billing
solutions so that all of thesesolutions are scattered and high
(05:30):
focus.
In a, in a niche, like we callthem like one trick 0.4, one
solution.
and then I know that we have athousand different problems and
then this is not really workingin a way we want to change the
world how healthcare changebehave within five years, four
years.
But it's,
Nathan C (05:49):
it's like death
Pj (05:50):
by a thousand clicks.
Uhhuh, right?
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
So then we decide to build aplatform.
Okay.
We know.
You said that that's by athousand clicks, that's an
example of really, really baduser experience.
Yeah.
but we noticed that there aresome common charitable
competence between thisworkflow, for instance, in
clicks.
I, I'm looking for your, like,advice on it so that we can come
(06:13):
up with a better solution sothat it's more deeper ai, Cuban
doctor relationship.
Those components can be sharedbetween things and then you can
build this kind of solutionreally, really best.
Just mix and matches kind ofLego block.
Mm-hmm.
So that we are sort of manydifferent clinical problems,
like better admission, betterdischarge, better like patient
encounter, outpatient,inpatient, or more.
Nathan C (06:35):
Ooh, it's always exciting, when you have a new
tool and you can be seeing, allthe different layers, where you
can make an impact.
the name of the show is the HLTHTech Glow Up.
A glow up is a notabletransformation Or like a
rebirth.
Let's start general with thehealth technology or health
industry as a whole.
(06:56):
do you have a goal or is there aglow up you wanna see in health
technology, like in the next sixmonths?
What are your big goals or,challenges to the industry?
Pj (07:07):
if you say six year, I have a lot more to talk, but you said
six months.
Yeah.
Is that, I'd like to say twodifferent things.
One is.
In clinical care, likeeverybody's talking about, is
now AI scribe.
Nathan C (07:18):
Mm-hmm.
Pj (07:19):
I want to see something 'cause I, I really love AI
scribe'cause this is like firstAI solution people ended up with
loving it.
Most of the previous solutionsare mostly driven by healthcare
administrators.
Concept, enforce certainactions.
You should do it.
You should do it.
Click, click, or like pop up.
Don't ignore it.
(07:40):
Kind of in a way, build with thedistrusting clinicians that they
should follow so that peopledon't like it.
Not all adopt, so you don't haveto change the world.
But AI experts probably one of.
Few, all these solutions isactually working, but I think
it's still covering on the verysmall portion of care because
surprisingly, there are a lot ofclinical care area that patient
(08:02):
encounter is not reallyhappening.
For instance, if you'redischarging patient as
hospitalist, you're talking topatient for five minutes.
And therefore next two hours isthere not just documentation,
you just need to connect all thedots within guidelines, like
hospital protocols and what'sthe best thing to do to send out
prescription and then make theright documentation?
The billing.
And then even deciding all of,basically this like evidence is
(08:25):
the patient even read fordischarge, like kind the way
competi making is there and AIscrap cannot really tell you
anything because there's norecording.
As private life kind of make anassumption that what you spoke
during the conversation is theground trust, but here, doctors
trying to make a ground trustright thing.
So how can you help those kindof areas is one thing.
(08:47):
second part is I want to seehappening more beyond EHR
companies, such as like, eh,like epic because like when we
are doing this kind of things,everybody asked.
Or what if Epic is doing a, B,C?
Mm-hmm.
that's a really good questionevery single investors ask us,
but I think it's somewhatmisleading questions because
(09:08):
Epic Technic can do it'causethey own initial user.
I terms layer, they have all thetechnical like stack and then
pretty much operating system.
But on the same way.
Like Microsoft build windows.
Okay.
Like let's say somebody buildamazing game like Roblox, nobody
asking people to build Roblox.
(09:29):
Like, okay, you're makingbillion dollar business.
What if Microsoft is taking overRoblox and building on their
own, their own Roblox?
Mm-hmm.
like what if Microsoft buildingEHL, I mean they're clearly at
advantage.
What if they have like defaultapplication roadblocks and EHL.
It doesn't make sense becausefirst it's not gonna be
happening that any singlecompany can do, covering every
(09:52):
single area in the world.
Okay.
It's impossible because that'swhy startup didn't exist.
Yep.
Yeah.
people have a different culture,different style of teams.
having money doesn't reallyguarantee anything.
That's why I started withindividuals.
Second delay, they shouldn't doit actually.
like same way.
Not necessarily Apple, iOS.
(10:14):
They, they don't need to buildit every single app.
Okay.
Nathan C (10:16):
needs to be a platform level tool.
Sometimes, other tools, buildingon can actually make a more
robust system, right?
Sure.
If, if that's
Pj (10:25):
happening, the, like, iOS, apple will be almost like Soviet
Union, like trying to likegovern every single aspect.
Security.
It's not gonna be working, it'sgonna be inefficient.
That's, that's why they don't doit.
It's clever.
And then even Epic and many Edgecompany, as I talking to, they
don't see them as.
They're doing everything Theyknow, they want to retain some
(10:47):
core elements mm-hmm.
As a fundamental experience of ehhl, but all the areas, they
don't want to touch it even.
They want to touch it and seethat very optimum success.
Nathan C (10:58):
you make a very interesting point about where a
platform is interested andinvested versus where a more
focused solution can providedeeper value.
Oftentimes there's thisassumption that platform play is
the best way to go because itserves so many needs.
But if you're serving so manyneeds, you're maybe not serving
(11:19):
them as deeply with as manyinsights with.
the cultural, workforce specificnuance, that a targeted,
solution can provide.
I really love it.
so let's move on and actually,turn, towards your company
specifically.
What's the glow up, that you'reworking on for AVO MD?
(11:40):
What are your big goals, for thenext six months?
Pj (11:43):
next six months, not six years, right?
Yep.
Nathan C (11:45):
I mean, you can give a six year answer
Pj (11:47):
as well, like taking over their medicine and we'll just
Nathan C (11:49):
to podcast a few more times on the way.
Pj (11:51):
so I told you that we are a platform which allow us to build
like any types of pil.
Whether it's admission or youmay with anything scale away.
So that technically speaking,I'm want take over every single
workflow in medicine, which isnot practical.
We cannot do that now.
Not yet.
So we just, we are hyperfocusing on a few main workflows
(12:14):
such as admission, discharge orrounding.
And then like charting differentpatients visiting combined with
AI Prime.
and the proving ROI on it.
for instance, let's say we aresolving like discharge, so there
will be, like there are somepatient doctor conversation
elements coming in that provenfrom the EHL, like talking and
(12:34):
then eat this.
Our solution is talking tohospital guideline and then like
Universal United Statesguidelines, making good,
recommendations and doctorscoming in, and then kind of make
discussion with doctors, Hey,this is an idea.
What do you think?
This and ai, and then I'm tryingto make this like meaningful
doctor AI relationship, as Isaid, with the right expert than
(12:56):
just asking for clicks.
This is an idea.
This is why.
So the users will be able toacknowledge and agree with this
disagree so that they both makebetter outcome, working together
faster and better quality andhospital making more money.
I'd like to say our kind of likelong-term goal is how we can
make patients get better.
(13:19):
Doctors, go home early hospital,make more money.
Nathan C (13:25):
Amazing.
That's kind of a new irontriangle for, healthcare
products.
Right.
Like, for healthcare outcomes, Iguess.
I love it.
as you're thinking about thisglow up, what's your approach to
partnerships?
And, your overall go to market.
who are you here at Healthlooking to meet and, how are you
growing?
Pj (13:43):
one way to grow, now we are exploring series A.
one of the things we are hearingis that We found product market
fit.
People love our solutions, butwe also need to prove that we
want to get loved by end users.
for don't love it.
We are not going anywhere, buthospitals should pay more money
because we have ROI.
(14:04):
So we are trying to prove ourROI and that we are actively
working on our partners.
when we say partner, we saycontent and IP.
AI needs data, AI and IP doesn'tgo well in general.
You know, that open AI releasingnew video generation, like
people are getting crazy, likestudio, anime style, whatever.
But in medicine, things aredifferent.
(14:27):
we talked about discharge a bitlike hospital system, like
doctors trying to make a saferdecision for discharge so that
they can discharge faster andsafer.
it's not really about ask ai,Hey, can you discharge patient
today?
Mm-hmm.
there are series of likeevidence-based guideline pieces.
Validated and proprietary andthen AI cannot own it.
(14:50):
Yeah.
They can't realize it if begiven.
So that, what we are doing isthat, that this proprietary IP
has a lot of, like ROI if provenROI, so that, but what we notice
is that they.
Have consistent fear with ai,they're gonna be less and less
like meaningful.
(15:11):
'cause people cares less aboutlike opening PDF guidelines.
Their, their doctors list ofdoctors build a PDF guidelines
to hundred pages and people areless tolerant on those kind of
things.
Mm-hmm.
But AI is really good atconsuming those to make a better
outcome.
And then we made really good fitwith this.
this, the partners, becausethey're not tech company at all.
(15:33):
We have a platform of likebuilding user, friendly,
clinician friendly interfacelike end to end workflow tool
for better discharge of mission,whatever.
Our turnaround time can be 10days within 10 days.
Meanwhile, like big companiestaking half year, one year.
So that's where we are movingto.
For instance, we partner with acompany.
(15:55):
Called MCG, which is thebuilding guidelines for mission
and discharge.
And we are the only partner forthem, to build a discharge like
assistant, helping doctors.
So to solve everything butdischarge make you vital
documentation, better planning.
Incorporate inclusion.
our inputs, AI scribe ifnecessary, incorporate If they
(16:18):
don't to the patient, that'sfine.
We handle that, those kind ofthings.
So that we make more money, theymake more money, and then we
take some of advantages and then'cause also EI companies don't
do this content play at all.
Nathan C (16:29):
Yeah.
I love this.
this is like a very good exampleof one of my favorite
applications of AI where you useAI To take care of the technical
things and the checklist kind ofthings, right?
What is the right process?
What are the indicators?
the AI is focused on a verytargeted, part of the process.
(16:50):
So you let the computers do thecomputer parts, and you let the
humans do the processing and thethinking and the cognitive, it's
just a perfect, alignment oflike asking the tools to do the
right thing.
For training and for, right.
Like the humans in thatinteraction can change.
But because the platform has theright context and instructions,
(17:10):
it can keep the standards in away that's like hard to enforce
otherwise.
So pj, I'm so enjoying thisconversation, but we have one
last question.
the theme of the HLTH show thisyear is Heroes and Legends, and
I know that every entrepreneurhas at least one mentor Or
somebody who has guided andencouraged them along the way.
(17:32):
That's really made a differencein how they got to where they
are today.
So I'm curious, how has amentor, or a leader impacted and
encouraged you to be where youare?
Pj (17:42):
I haven't.
So many mentors, but like, Iprobably don't want hear the
oath.
I thank you.
My parents or things like that.
Yeah.
Not quite time for an Oscarspeech.
it's interesting somebody asksme little questions and I had no
idea what to say.
because maybe this is sort ofespeci in medicine because if
you ask me who's the legend inphysics.
Einstein, like who's a legend incooking?
(18:03):
Like, okay, Gordon, or kind ofthings, but who's the legend to
a doctor?
Like, I'm in medicine, I'm adoctor, I have no idea who the
person is.
Maybe we have some kind ofculture like suppressing, like
individual cult kind of thing.
like El Musk and or Sam Ultimatekind of things.
I mean, I don't mean that thereare no heroes.
A lot of heroes working in ateam.
(18:25):
secondly, if you focus on notjust being a doctor, anything
like the clinical, there areusually innovations coming from
industry first, nonmedical,large language, everything.
And then it takes so many yearsconnecting all the dots and
complexity.
The big tech is not really ableto solve.
Even health company healthcarecompany cannot really solve.
So there's a lot of struggle.
(18:46):
Trial fail, people try Google.
Glass not working is dead.
Those kind of things continuestill happening.
so that usually for me, therelegend, now it's almost, nobody
really talks about Applenowadays because of ai,
everything.
but when I first starting it,my.
Legend was, I feel a bit shy tosay this, but it was Steve Jobs
(19:09):
actually.
Awesome.
I love it.
not many people talk about himany longer.
more people might talk about thesame ultimate nowadays.
But because the reason is that,that's when I was working the
ICU watching his keynote, andthen what I really enjoyed is
that he's like deep,hyper-focused on.
Session on and part of thedesirability.
(19:30):
Yes.
Like pj, I love
Nathan C (19:32):
it so much, but we have to wrap it for our time.
That's such a fantastic place toend.
I love the accidentalentrepreneur, and wrapping with
Steve Shep.
PJ AVO MD, thank you so much forjoining me.
I see you.
I'm the tech, HLTH Tech Glow UpThank you.
Amazing.
Thank, thank you.
Hello and welcome to the HLTH Tech Glow Up.
I'm Nathan c and today I'mtalking with PJ of Avo, md.
PJ, thank you so much forjoining me.
Pj (00:10):
Great.
I'm PJ, one of co-founders andchairman and chief prop product
ai.
And nice being here.
we are working, I'm working oncore, a company called Avo MD.
This is the, AI platform,clinical copilot for clinicians.
Nathan C (00:24):
Mm-hmm.
Pj (00:25):
And then I have an international background from
Korea around 10 years ago.
I also a clinician from my side,Doctor Harvard Medical faculty,
but I decided to dedicate myselfto the intersection between AI
and medicine.
So excited about our future.
We are trying to build aplatform where all of their are
(00:47):
solving problems.
There are so many.
Problems in the world.
So, but in a scale of a way sothat, we are expecting and
scaling, like building solutionsand label like fashion in our
platform.
Nathan C (01:00):
I'm always very interested about people's origin
story, about why they begin anentrepreneurial journey.
Being a clinician is a full dayjob, right?
so I'm curious what.
Sparked the inspiration to startworking in AI and technology in
addition to, your otherpractice.
Pj (01:18):
Let's say I never really seen myself as an entrepreneur.
I mean, I never had a dream.
Or like, okay, I want to build acompany, CO, whatever.
I just want a doctor.
I be a doctor.
And then during, so I, I was anintern.
I came to the residency and thenof course I was not their
smartest doctor during theresidency, but there was a
(01:39):
language barrier.
The first day I was able, barelyable to speak English.
What I remember is that like mysenior was asking me to, Hey,
this patient is dying.
Contact the family and to letthem know that.
Oh my God.
Like of course I missedeverything.
Life happens.
Yeah.
yeah, so that be given mybackground on engineering, AI
research and ui ux, one of thething I was really focused on
(02:02):
was like, okay, buildingsoftwares on my own.
Let's keep some kind of likerelationship between app and
human doctor and then make mykind of imperfect doctor.
Perfect.
So that was my dream.
it was just hobby that wasdoing.
Since my residence develops, Iended up with like 50 different
apps.
(02:23):
Then some of them are featuredin the newspaper and everything.
So that it led me to Columbia,Machine learning research over
there.
Also, I was very interested inui, ux and then eventually I
noticed, my God, I cannot,what's the point of building 50
different apps?
Those kind of things actually.
Mm-hmm.
Still happening.
(02:43):
at that time I thought that wemight able to build a platform
where there are some.
Common, like shared comp.
Share the T between all of theseapplications so that we can
scale and solving more problems.
Best and faster and then I hadno idea what company is, but my
friends and my coworkers, andthen my future co-founders,
(03:05):
they're coming in and told methat, Hey, you should build the
company.
What does that even mean?
Like I started Googling and thenI thought that, okay, this might
be the only way I'm so excitedabout this project.
Only way to make it work is tomake it a business making money
so that this is sortself-sustaining.
This is how I started.
That's a little bit differentfrom his stories from others,
(03:27):
because I know that many peoplethis big dream of like, I wanna
make money.
I wanna like, make a bigbusiness change to the world.
Yeah.
I went little bit different way.
I,
Nathan C (03:36):
I love that.
Like the entrepreneurial spiritand the like, here's a problem
that I'm experiencing in my dayjob.
I'm just gonna go.
Sit you accidentally fix 50different problems.
And then people are like,"Hey,like, this is really like what
an entrepreneur does.
You should probably start acompany," I love that you were
the last one to know that youhad this entrepreneurial
(03:58):
mindset.
It was just like part of howyou're solving problems.
can we dive a little bit intothe solution with it?
AVO MD and, with the productthat you're working on now, and,
help me understand, you know,the health tech, audience, or
the tech glow up audiencedoesn't necessarily know a ton
about, I see healthtechnologies, I see.
So, if you can, kind ofintroduce, your product and,
Pj (04:20):
so let me, put it this way.
I mean, there are many differentsectors in healthcare, like
patient side and then the payerand everything.
I'm always focused on clinicalcare.
Improving clinical care and thenany.
Revenue improvement,inefficiency, issues in clinical
care where providers,clinicians, and nurses involved.
So focusing on that area, whatwe do is that there are so many
(04:46):
problems.
And then with complicatedworkflow, let's say I'm
automating a patient.
Like.
I'm assuming there are so manyAI technology over there.
so that, like, you're stilldoing all the like EHL, like
epic, like chart review clickingeverywhere.
Mm-hmm.
epic has some features.
You summarize some portion ofit.
Okay.
Now, some of clinical care ininvolve patients doctor
(05:09):
encounter so that you might usean AI scrub system, make a
report to enhance.
your clinical documentation, nowyou need to make some decision.
Your ology is imperfect and thenyou need to go to like UpToDate,
probably not Wikipedia and, andeverything, and there's billing
solutions so that all of thesesolutions are scattered and high
(05:30):
focus.
In a, in a niche, like we callthem like one trick 0.4, one
solution.
and then I know that we have athousand different problems and
then this is not really workingin a way we want to change the
world how healthcare changebehave within five years, four
years.
But it's,
Nathan C (05:49):
it's like death
Pj (05:50):
by a thousand clicks.
Uhhuh, right?
Uhhuh.
Yeah.
So then we decide to build aplatform.
Okay.
We know.
You said that that's by athousand clicks, that's an
example of really, really baduser experience.
Yeah.
but we noticed that there aresome common charitable
competence between thisworkflow, for instance, in
clicks.
I, I'm looking for your, like,advice on it so that we can come
(06:13):
up with a better solution sothat it's more deeper ai, Cuban
doctor relationship.
Those components can be sharedbetween things and then you can
build this kind of solutionreally, really best.
Just mix and matches kind ofLego block.
Mm-hmm.
So that we are sort of manydifferent clinical problems,
like better admission, betterdischarge, better like patient
encounter, outpatient,inpatient, or more.
Nathan C (06:35):
Ooh, it's always exciting, when you have a new
tool and you can be seeing, allthe different layers, where you
can make an impact.
the name of the show is the HLTHTech Glow Up.
A glow up is a notabletransformation Or like a
rebirth.
Let's start general with thehealth technology or health
industry as a whole.
(06:56):
do you have a goal or is there aglow up you wanna see in health
technology, like in the next sixmonths?
What are your big goals or,challenges to the industry?
Pj (07:07):
if you say six year, I have a lot more to talk, but you said
six months.
Yeah.
Is that, I'd like to say twodifferent things.
One is.
In clinical care, likeeverybody's talking about, is
now AI scribe.
Nathan C (07:18):
Mm-hmm.
Pj (07:19):
I want to see something 'cause I, I really love AI
scribe'cause this is like firstAI solution people ended up with
loving it.
Most of the previous solutionsare mostly driven by healthcare
administrators.
Concept, enforce certainactions.
You should do it.
You should do it.
Click, click, or like pop up.
Don't ignore it.
(07:40):
Kind of in a way, build with thedistrusting clinicians that they
should follow so that peopledon't like it.
Not all adopt, so you don't haveto change the world.
But AI experts probably one of.
Few, all these solutions isactually working, but I think
it's still covering on the verysmall portion of care because
surprisingly, there are a lot ofclinical care area that patient
(08:02):
encounter is not reallyhappening.
For instance, if you'redischarging patient as
hospitalist, you're talking topatient for five minutes.
And therefore next two hours isthere not just documentation,
you just need to connect all thedots within guidelines, like
hospital protocols and what'sthe best thing to do to send out
prescription and then make theright documentation?
The billing.
And then even deciding all of,basically this like evidence is
(08:25):
the patient even read fordischarge, like kind the way
competi making is there and AIscrap cannot really tell you
anything because there's norecording.
As private life kind of make anassumption that what you spoke
during the conversation is theground trust, but here, doctors
trying to make a ground trustright thing.
So how can you help those kindof areas is one thing.
(08:47):
second part is I want to seehappening more beyond EHR
companies, such as like, eh,like epic because like when we
are doing this kind of things,everybody asked.
Or what if Epic is doing a, B,C?
Mm-hmm.
that's a really good questionevery single investors ask us,
but I think it's somewhatmisleading questions because
(09:08):
Epic Technic can do it'causethey own initial user.
I terms layer, they have all thetechnical like stack and then
pretty much operating system.
But on the same way.
Like Microsoft build windows.
Okay.
Like let's say somebody buildamazing game like Roblox, nobody
asking people to build Roblox.
(09:29):
Like, okay, you're makingbillion dollar business.
What if Microsoft is taking overRoblox and building on their
own, their own Roblox?
Mm-hmm.
like what if Microsoft buildingEHL, I mean they're clearly at
advantage.
What if they have like defaultapplication roadblocks and EHL.
It doesn't make sense becausefirst it's not gonna be
happening that any singlecompany can do, covering every
(09:52):
single area in the world.
Okay.
It's impossible because that'swhy startup didn't exist.
Yep.
Yeah.
people have a different culture,different style of teams.
having money doesn't reallyguarantee anything.
That's why I started withindividuals.
Second delay, they shouldn't doit actually.
like same way.
Not necessarily Apple, iOS.
(10:14):
They, they don't need to buildit every single app.
Okay.
Nathan C (10:16):
needs to be a platform level tool.
Sometimes, other tools, buildingon can actually make a more
robust system, right?
Sure.
If, if that's
Pj (10:25):
happening, the, like, iOS, apple will be almost like Soviet
Union, like trying to likegovern every single aspect.
Security.
It's not gonna be working, it'sgonna be inefficient.
That's, that's why they don't doit.
It's clever.
And then even Epic and many Edgecompany, as I talking to, they
don't see them as.
They're doing everything Theyknow, they want to retain some
(10:47):
core elements mm-hmm.
As a fundamental experience of ehhl, but all the areas, they
don't want to touch it even.
They want to touch it and seethat very optimum success.
Nathan C (10:58):
you make a very interesting point about where a
platform is interested andinvested versus where a more
focused solution can providedeeper value.
Oftentimes there's thisassumption that platform play is
the best way to go because itserves so many needs.
But if you're serving so manyneeds, you're maybe not serving
(11:19):
them as deeply with as manyinsights with.
the cultural, workforce specificnuance, that a targeted,
solution can provide.
I really love it.
so let's move on and actually,turn, towards your company
specifically.
What's the glow up, that you'reworking on for AVO MD?
(11:40):
What are your big goals, for thenext six months?
Pj (11:43):
next six months, not six years, right?
Yep.
Nathan C (11:45):
I mean, you can give a six year answer
Pj (11:47):
as well, like taking over their medicine and we'll just
Nathan C (11:49):
to podcast a few more times on the way.
Pj (11:51):
so I told you that we are a platform which allow us to build
like any types of pil.
Whether it's admission or youmay with anything scale away.
So that technically speaking,I'm want take over every single
workflow in medicine, which isnot practical.
We cannot do that now.
Not yet.
So we just, we are hyperfocusing on a few main workflows
(12:14):
such as admission, discharge orrounding.
And then like charting differentpatients visiting combined with
AI Prime.
and the proving ROI on it.
for instance, let's say we aresolving like discharge, so there
will be, like there are somepatient doctor conversation
elements coming in that provenfrom the EHL, like talking and
(12:34):
then eat this.
Our solution is talking tohospital guideline and then like
Universal United Statesguidelines, making good,
recommendations and doctorscoming in, and then kind of make
discussion with doctors, Hey,this is an idea.
What do you think?
This and ai, and then I'm tryingto make this like meaningful
doctor AI relationship, as Isaid, with the right expert than
(12:56):
just asking for clicks.
This is an idea.
This is why.
So the users will be able toacknowledge and agree with this
disagree so that they both makebetter outcome, working together
faster and better quality andhospital making more money.
I'd like to say our kind of likelong-term goal is how we can
make patients get better.
(13:19):
Doctors, go home early hospital,make more money.
Nathan C (13:25):
Amazing.
That's kind of a new irontriangle for, healthcare
products.
Right.
Like, for healthcare outcomes, Iguess.
I love it.
as you're thinking about thisglow up, what's your approach to
partnerships?
And, your overall go to market.
who are you here at Healthlooking to meet and, how are you
growing?
Pj (13:43):
one way to grow, now we are exploring series A.
one of the things we are hearingis that We found product market
fit.
People love our solutions, butwe also need to prove that we
want to get loved by end users.
for don't love it.
We are not going anywhere, buthospitals should pay more money
because we have ROI.
(14:04):
So we are trying to prove ourROI and that we are actively
working on our partners.
when we say partner, we saycontent and IP.
AI needs data, AI and IP doesn'tgo well in general.
You know, that open AI releasingnew video generation, like
people are getting crazy, likestudio, anime style, whatever.
But in medicine, things aredifferent.
(14:27):
we talked about discharge a bitlike hospital system, like
doctors trying to make a saferdecision for discharge so that
they can discharge faster andsafer.
it's not really about ask ai,Hey, can you discharge patient
today?
Mm-hmm.
there are series of likeevidence-based guideline pieces.
Validated and proprietary andthen AI cannot own it.
(14:50):
Yeah.
They can't realize it if begiven.
So that, what we are doing isthat, that this proprietary IP
has a lot of, like ROI if provenROI, so that, but what we notice
is that they.
Have consistent fear with ai,they're gonna be less and less
like meaningful.
(15:11):
'cause people cares less aboutlike opening PDF guidelines.
Their, their doctors list ofdoctors build a PDF guidelines
to hundred pages and people areless tolerant on those kind of
things.
Mm-hmm.
But AI is really good atconsuming those to make a better
outcome.
And then we made really good fitwith this.
this, the partners, becausethey're not tech company at all.
(15:33):
We have a platform of likebuilding user, friendly,
clinician friendly interfacelike end to end workflow tool
for better discharge of mission,whatever.
Our turnaround time can be 10days within 10 days.
Meanwhile, like big companiestaking half year, one year.
So that's where we are movingto.
For instance, we partner with acompany.
(15:55):
Called MCG, which is thebuilding guidelines for mission
and discharge.
And we are the only partner forthem, to build a discharge like
assistant, helping doctors.
So to solve everything butdischarge make you vital
documentation, better planning.
Incorporate inclusion.
our inputs, AI scribe ifnecessary, incorporate If they
(16:18):
don't to the patient, that'sfine.
We handle that, those kind ofthings.
So that we make more money, theymake more money, and then we
take some of advantages and then'cause also EI companies don't
do this content play at all.
Nathan C (16:29):
Yeah.
I love this.
this is like a very good exampleof one of my favorite
applications of AI where you useAI To take care of the technical
things and the checklist kind ofthings, right?
What is the right process?
What are the indicators?
the AI is focused on a verytargeted, part of the process.
(16:50):
So you let the computers do thecomputer parts, and you let the
humans do the processing and thethinking and the cognitive, it's
just a perfect, alignment oflike asking the tools to do the
right thing.
For training and for, right.
Like the humans in thatinteraction can change.
But because the platform has theright context and instructions,
(17:10):
it can keep the standards in away that's like hard to enforce
otherwise.
So pj, I'm so enjoying thisconversation, but we have one
last question.
the theme of the HLTH show thisyear is Heroes and Legends, and
I know that every entrepreneurhas at least one mentor Or
somebody who has guided andencouraged them along the way.
(17:32):
That's really made a differencein how they got to where they
are today.
So I'm curious, how has amentor, or a leader impacted and
encouraged you to be where youare?
Pj (17:42):
I haven't.
So many mentors, but like, Iprobably don't want hear the
oath.
I thank you.
My parents or things like that.
Yeah.
Not quite time for an Oscarspeech.
it's interesting somebody asksme little questions and I had no
idea what to say.
because maybe this is sort ofespeci in medicine because if
you ask me who's the legend inphysics.
Einstein, like who's a legend incooking?
(18:03):
Like, okay, Gordon, or kind ofthings, but who's the legend to
a doctor?
Like, I'm in medicine, I'm adoctor, I have no idea who the
person is.
Maybe we have some kind ofculture like suppressing, like
individual cult kind of thing.
like El Musk and or Sam Ultimatekind of things.
I mean, I don't mean that thereare no heroes.
A lot of heroes working in ateam.
(18:25):
secondly, if you focus on notjust being a doctor, anything
like the clinical, there areusually innovations coming from
industry first, nonmedical,large language, everything.
And then it takes so many yearsconnecting all the dots and
complexity.
The big tech is not really ableto solve.
Even health company healthcarecompany cannot really solve.
So there's a lot of struggle.
(18:46):
Trial fail, people try Google.
Glass not working is dead.
Those kind of things continuestill happening.
so that usually for me, therelegend, now it's almost, nobody
really talks about Applenowadays because of ai,
everything.
but when I first starting it,my.
Legend was, I feel a bit shy tosay this, but it was Steve Jobs
(19:09):
actually.
Awesome.
I love it.
not many people talk about himany longer.
more people might talk about thesame ultimate nowadays.
But because the reason is that,that's when I was working the
ICU watching his keynote, andthen what I really enjoyed is
that he's like deep,hyper-focused on.
Session on and part of thedesirability.
(19:30):
Yes.
Like pj, I love
Nathan C (19:32):
it so much, but we have to wrap it for our time.
That's such a fantastic place toend.
I love the accidentalentrepreneur, and wrapping with
Steve Shep.
PJ AVO MD, thank you so much forjoining me.
I see you.
I'm the tech, HLTH Tech Glow UpThank you.
Amazing.
Thank, thank you.
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