How do we build bipartisan momentum to support the future of CTE?
In this episode of The TechEd Podcast, host Matt Kirchner sits down with U.S. Senator Tammy Baldwin, a national leader and co-chair of the bipartisan Congressional Career and Technical Education Caucus. Drawing from her personal upbringing in a STEM-focused household and her decades of public service, Senator Baldwin shares why CTE is essential to our economic future.
Senator Baldwin offers a candid look at how federal policy is influencing the future of technical education. She discusses the uncertain outlook for funding, efforts to align apprenticeship laws with modern tech careers, and why short-term training is becoming a national priority. With clear ties to workforce needs and economic strategy, it’s a conversation grounded in both practicality and urgency.
Listen to learn:
- Why short-term training needs to be federally funded like degree programs
- What Congress is doing to modernize U.S. apprenticeship laws
- How Buy America provisions are creating new manufacturing jobs
- Why the technical college system is a key asset in attracting new industry
3 Big Takeaways from this Episode:
1. CTE is one of the rare policy areas with true bipartisan alignment: From Buy America provisions to workforce training, Baldwin sees common ground among lawmakers focused on economic development. She credits this unity to the shared recognition that technical education is vital to America’s industrial strength.
2. Short-term training needs to be recognized in federal financial aid policy: Senator Baldwin emphasized the importance of allowing Pell Grants and other aid to support short, job-focused programs—not just two- or four-year degrees. Without this flexibility, learners may be forced to take on unnecessary debt or misrepresent their intentions just to access support.
3. Apprenticeship programs must be updated to reflect today’s workforce: The National Apprenticeship Act hasn’t been reauthorized since 1937, leaving many modern industries and small businesses without a clear path to participate. Baldwin is pushing for a bipartisan update that would make it easier for employers of all sizes to offer earn-and-learn opportunities.
Resources in this Episode:
To learn more about Senator Tammy Baldwin, visit: www.baldwin.senate.gov
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Kirchner (00:08):
Matt securing the American Dream for the next
generation of STEM and workforcetalent. My name is Matt
Kirchner. I am the host of TheTechEd Podcast. We are talking
this week all things Career,Technical Education with a guest
that, quite honestly, I'm justreally, really honored, took the
time to join us this afternoon.
I am joined today here on TheTechEd Podcast by Senator Tammy
(00:29):
Baldwin, the senator from myhome state of Wisconsin, and
Senator Baldwin, such a pleasureto have you with us. Thanks so
much for coming on.
Tammy Baldwin (00:39):
Well, thank you, Matt. I'm so delighted to get a
chance to join you today. Solet's start out with
Matt Kirchner (00:44):
just an incredible background that your
family has. I think some peoplein Wisconsin and maybe not the
whole nation, know that David EGreen was your grandfather, a
renowned biochemist, and soyou've got this amazing family
history of STEM talk about alittle bit about what it was
like to grow up as a girl and astem family and how that
influenced the way that yourcareer went? Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (01:04):
so I will say, first of all, I was blessed to
be raised by my grandparents,and my grandfather, indeed, was
a biochemist at the Universityof Wisconsin, and my
grandmother, who actuallythought she was an empty nester,
because both my aunt and mymother had left that I came
along, but she had gone back towork, and she also worked at the
(01:24):
University in a very differentfield, and I want to just share
it, because you don't think ofart necessarily as STEM related,
but she was the head costumedesigner for the university
theater. And if you're talkingabout crafting costumes and
stuff, you're talking a lotabout measurements and geometry
and all that stuff. So there wasvery much both of them in fields
(01:47):
where stem was important. Butalso my grandmother's early
career, before she had children,was teaching at an art school,
which at the time was very muchlike a technical college. She
was teaching people to be thecalligraphers who would do the
diplomas at university. She wasteaching people how to do
(02:10):
landscape gardening design. Shewas teaching people how to do
costume fabrication. And sobetween my grandfather and my
grandmother, I felt like thisfocus on education first, but
also education in mygrandmother's realm that gets
you right into a good, payingjob that can support a family
(02:32):
and allows people to pursuetheir dreams and their passions.
And so I really felt like I wasimmersed in that as I was
growing up,
Matt Kirchner (02:41):
you know, I'm so glad you brought it up that way.
I'm fascinated, to be honest,with the convergence between art
and manufacturing, art and stemand I think, you know, we had
Laura Kohler from the Kohlercompany on a year or two ago.
I'm sure you're familiar with, Iknow you're familiar with that
family and that company andgreat Wisconsin employer and
their arts program, sure. And wecould probably do a whole
podcast on that, because I'mreally, really familiar with the
(03:03):
John Michael Kohler Art Centerand the great work that's
happening there. Happy, youbrought that up as well, but we
had this whole conversation withLaura Kohler about the
convergence between STEMmanufacturing, art and so on. I
think a lot of times that getslost in the mix is that there's,
you know, whether we're talkingabout STEM, we're talking about
careers in manufacturing, whichwe have so much of here in
Wisconsin, there's this wholeelement of creativity and this
(03:25):
whole element of engineeringthat goes into the world of art.
And it sounds like that's kindof what your grandmother was
doing in so many ways. Am Igetting that right? Yes,
Tammy Baldwin (03:33):
you are. And there's that expression, Steam,
right? Steam adds the arts rightinto it because of that way in
which they're interwovenAbsolutely.
Matt Kirchner (03:43):
And there was a part of me be honest with you
for a while that was a littlebit like adding that a and to
see into STEM was was a way forthe art folks to maybe get their
hands on some of the money thatwas coming into STEM. And I've
really evolved that thinkingover the course of the last five
or 10 years, and seen how we caninspire young people, whether
they're on the stem side intoalso adding art into that
experience and into theirjourney, and then students that
(04:06):
are on the art side, exposingthem to cool careers in STEM and
manufacturing. I know that'swhat you're doing as part of
this bipartisan CTE caucus,which I'll be honest with you
until reading about it maybe sixmonths ago. I didn't even know
was a thing I spend all my timein career and technical
education. Tell us a little bitabout the congressional work
that's happening in the CTEcaucus, and you're co chairing
that caucus, by the way.
Tammy Baldwin (04:27):
Yeah. So the career and technical education
caucus was founded just aboutthe time I was first elected to
the United States Senate. It'sstrictly bipartisan, and a lot
of the folks who are involved inthe leadership of that caucus
represents states with a lot ofmanufacturing going on, and
understand that four year pathto a career in a four year
(04:51):
college is not everybody's path,and we know that, especially in
a state like Wisconsin with suchan excellent technical college.
System, there are shorterpathways to great jobs, throw in
apprenticeships, which we'llhopefully talk about in a
moment, and you have a way inwhich you can be earning a
(05:13):
family supporting wage veryquickly and doing something
hopefully that you love. One ofthe things that we were tackling
as a caucus were, what are theobstacles that people face to
getting into those great payingjobs and getting into a career
training path that they canafford and that gets them into
(05:35):
those earning positions quickly.
And so a number of areas ofemphasis came out of that,
including the way that peoplecan finance a technical
education to make it affordable,maybe when they don't even
intend to go all the way throughand get the associate's degree
after two years there, but theyreally want the skills for a job
(05:56):
opening one of the things that Ibrought with me to this role in
the CTE caucus was watching someof our technical colleges in
Wisconsin respond to factoryclosings, and you had a
workforce that was displaced,and all of a sudden you had A
(06:17):
mission for our TechnicalCollege to figure out, how can
we retrain these people midcareer for other good, paying
jobs without having them, youknow, have to take out student
loans and really disrupt theirlives. How can we make that as
streamlined as possible to getpeople ahead in challenging
(06:39):
times, and
Matt Kirchner (06:41):
I'm so glad you brought up our incredible
technical college system here inWisconsin. And there's other
states that do amazing work.
I've spent a lot of time inIndiana and Ohio and so on, but
there's nobody who does it likeWisconsin. I co presented at an
event A few weeks ago with LeilaMerrifield, who, as you know, is
the new president of thetechnical college system here in
the state. And I think you'reabsolutely nailing it. Just the
value that that college systembrings, whether it's the work I
(07:03):
get to do on the GatewayFoundation Board at Gateway
Technical College, engaging inmy own time when all 16
technical colleges across thestate of Wisconsin, and if folks
haven't been into a technical orcommunity college in the last 10
years or so, I mean, it's worthtaking another visit. It is just
totally, totally changed andincredible work being done in
support of the next generationof the workforce. So thanks so
(07:25):
much for bringing that up. Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (07:28):
and Matt, whenever I take a tour, I want
to go back to school immediatelywhat I think about and feel when
I'm touring one of our technicalcolleges. And you know, I was
talking about the role they playwhen there's displacements in
our workforce. Big factorycloses, but there's also the
role that they play when newindustry is coming to town, and
(07:49):
so gateway in particular ispreparing for, we hope, a whole
bunch of new jobs insoutheastern Wisconsin and those
industries that are comingcouldn't be successful without
the contributions of ourtechnical college system,
Matt Kirchner (08:05):
and they all point to that as a reason that
they're relocating here. Youknow, we had Mary snap, who's
the Vice President of Strategyfor Microsoft, on about a year
ago, not too long afterMicrosoft made their huge
announcement about theirexpansion in Mount Pleasant and
the pleasant prairie area andjust incredible opportunities
for employees, but we do have toupskill that next generation of
technical talent. All of that,of course, takes funding. And
(08:29):
you know, I'd be interested in acouple thoughts, your viewpoints
from your chair at the nationallevel, Senator, when we think
about where the funding has comefrom. The last several years, we
had the care the Cares Act, wehad ARPA, we had chips and
science. I mean significantamounts of federal funding, in
many cases, being funneledthrough the states and into our
technical colleges, into ourSTEM programs, in our high
schools, in our universities.
What are your thoughts now onthe state of funding and where
(08:51):
funding is going to come from?
Are we going to see more shiftto the states? Is it going to
stay federal, maybe in a newform? What are you expecting?
Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (09:00):
well, I do think this is going to be a rather
chaotic time. There's an effortto, well, eliminate the US,
Department of Education, that,in my opinion, cannot happen
without congressional action,but we do see some dismantling
and some defunding, and sofasten your seat belts. This can
be a very challenging time.
We're going to get through it,but it's not going to be easy.
(09:21):
One of the areas that I justmentioned a few minutes ago,
though, where I hope we can upour efforts, and we can do so by
working together across partylines, etc, is to make sure that
the financial aid that peoplecan draw upon to attend
technical colleges can extend toshorter term programs. Thank
(09:43):
you. So we're talking aboutupskilling or re skilling,
talking about preparing an areaof the state for a new industry
coming to town, needing to havea robust workforce. Sometimes
you really only require acouple. Semester's worth of
coursework, or even a shorterterm program that could be put
together in concert withindustry in order to prepare the
(10:07):
workforce for that to be able tomake sure that our financial aid
programs are nimble enough tohelp students afford a shorter
term program without having tosay, Oh, I'm going to pursue a
two year degree and then renegeon that. We don't want to put
our students in the position offibbing in order to get
financial aid. So I think that'ssomething that we can pursue at
(10:30):
the national level that willbring some revenue into the
technical college systems acrossthis country and certainly in
Wisconsin too. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (10:43):
I couldn't agree with you more on the value of
short term training youmentioned a little while ago.
You go to a technical collegeand you want to go back to
school. The truth is thatopportunity is available for a
lot of us as we think aboutlifelong learning and needing to
change our skills over thecourse of careers. I have the
honor of serving on the NationalBoard for the smart automation
certification Alliance. And Ithink just about every one of
(11:03):
our colleges here in Wisconsinare issuing those certifications
in one form or another, just oneexample of how we don't
necessarily have to commit totwo years or four years as we
upskill ourselves and prepareourselves for whatever comes
next in our career. So reallyglad that you mentioned that
aspect, because I agree withyou. I think that making sure
we've got funding for short termtraining is going to be really,
really important. The otherthing, I think, and you
(11:25):
mentioned already, Senator,that's going to be really
interesting to watch is thiswhole evolution of
apprenticeships. And I know thatthere was some news that came
out of the administration lastweek on focusing through labor,
through commerce and education,those three departments, and not
exactly sure what form that'lltake about supporting registered
apprenticeships, which typicallyhaven't been necessarily a model
(11:46):
that has been supported from theright more so the left. What are
your thoughts on that? And whatdo apprenticeships look like?
You mentioned that earlier, sotell us your thoughts there.
Tammy Baldwin (11:53):
Yeah. Well, Matt, I first want to take the
bragging rights. Wisconsin wasthe first state in the country
to pass an apprenticeship lawback in 1911 That's right. I
think many of our immigrants whocame to Wisconsin settled our
state, brought those traditionsfrom Europe with them. So I'm
not surprised that Wisconsin wasthe first state to have such a
(12:15):
law. The US followed suit in1937 by passing the National
Apprenticeship act, and that acthas not been reauthorized or
modernized since then, and so Ihave been proud to lead a
bipartisan effort to reauthorizeour National Apprenticeship laws
(12:35):
and modernize them, because, aswe all know, industry nearly a
century ago, is very differentthan industry is today, and we
need to be better equipped tobring maybe new, novel
apprenticeships into existenceand also enable smaller and
(12:56):
medium sized businesses to beable to participate In
apprenticeship programs. I thinkoften they self select out of
that, saying, Oh, we're toosmall. Those are big factories,
big manufacturing enterprisesthat have apprenticeships within
their ranks, or it's the tradeunions, but we can't do it
because we're just a five personshop. Well, there are ways where
(13:20):
we can get small businesses,medium sized businesses, to work
together to be able to sponsoran apprenticeship program. There
are apprenticeships that havebeen introduced in recent years
that didn't exist severaldecades ago, and so I am really
excited to create thisopportunity to modernize these
(13:40):
laws. And why does it matter?
Again, it goes back to can youafford to get the skills you
need to land that great payingjob that gives you economic
security and a place in themiddle class? Well, when you can
earn while you learn, the ideaof an apprenticeship is so
incredibly important. That's howyou make it work. And the
(14:03):
technical college system plays abig role in many of our
apprenticeship programs,sometimes offering the
coursework one day a week whenthe apprentices are all at
school, and then the remainingfour days a week they're back at
their facility or out in thefield. But that ability to earn
while you learn is so important,and I have talked to so many
(14:24):
people who have becomejourneymen. And what would you
tell your high school self, orif you had a chance to go back
to your high school and talk tosome of the young people there,
what would you tell them aboutthe opportunities and the doors
that an apprenticeship openedand to a one, they've all been
very, very encouraging of thatpath. And it doesn't mean that
(14:46):
higher education isn't stillavailable to you later down the
road. Should you choose? Butyou're not starting out your
career in debt, and that'ssomething. There's a lot to be
said for that absolutely.
Matt Kirchner (15:00):
Absolutely. I mean higher education of any
kind, incredibly valuable. Ithink we all agree on that, but
I love the way that you kind ofwove that answer together,
talking about the importance ofthe classroom aspect of an
apprenticeship and and certainlythe on the job training. And I
think, as you know Senator, Ispent 25 years in manufacturing
companies, leading Wisconsinmanufacturing companies, we did
a ton of on the job training,but there's nothing like putting
(15:21):
a student in a lab, putting themin a classroom, putting them
into a technical college, a highschool program where they're
learning, and accelerating thatlearning in a lot of ways, so
that they're workforce readywhen they get to the workplace.
Super, super important.
Tammy Baldwin (15:33):
And Matt, you just mentioned something that I
failed to mention, and that is,many of our high schools in
Wisconsin are already offeringin high school classes that can
give you technical collegecredit. Totally, there are some
students who actually graduatehigh school with an associate's
degree. That's not I do, noteverywhere, but the way in which
(15:55):
high schools are increasinglyworking with the technical
colleges in their region toapprove courses, or if the high
school isn't equipped to offerthose allowing the student to
leave one afternoon to go to thetechnical college campus, take
those courses. There all ofthese things are huge
advancements that allow ouryoung people to be job ready,
(16:19):
Career Ready, much earlier onand again without debt. And
Matt Kirchner (16:23):
I think about the creativity that's gone into
programs such as, there's a newautomation leadership degree at
UW Stout. It's had hugebipartisan support in the state
of Wisconsin, where students areearning credit in high school,
literally, are able to start abaccalaureate degree program
with 88 credits into 120 creditbaccalaureate degree when they
about a year after they leavehigh school through doing things
(16:43):
at their high school and theirtechnical college. Just one more
incredible example. Dr, Frank,the chancellor, they're doing
incredible work on thatparticular degree program. It's
so interesting. Senator, youknow, you think about maybe what
our audience listens to on theradio, or he sees on TV, or sees
on social media, and like fairamount of vitriol, I think is
probably maybe even understatingit when we think about things
(17:04):
going on in Washington. Butyeah, when we talk about topics
like this, and we say, you know,our mission is to secure the
American Dream for the nextgeneration of STEM and workforce
talent. Doesn't matter who youvoted for last time or you're
going to vote for next time. Ifyou agree with that mission,
we're on the same team. Is thathow you're seeing it when it
comes to career and technicaleducation in Washington, DC.
Talk about that a little bit.
Yeah. Well,
Tammy Baldwin (17:24):
as I mentioned earlier, our Career and
Technical Education caucus thatwe formed just about the time I
joined the United States Senate,it's very bipartisan, and we
bring in speakers on topicsregardless of their political
leaning. I think, about some ofthe top manufacturing states,
many of them are represented byDemocrats, or many are
(17:46):
represented by Republicans, butit's really a way for us to work
together. And I do want to talkabout or raise another issue
that I think really blendsacross party lines, and that is
the idea of Buy America rulesand requirements, and the role
that that plays in keepingmanufacturing jobs here, from
(18:06):
keeping them from goingoverseas, but also in some
cases, reshoring them when theyhave left because of prior poor
industrial policy, and now we'reable to bring them back. And so
I consider myself a hugechampion of Buy America rules,
and it's the simple idea thatwhen we're spending taxpayer
dollars, we want those taxpayerdollars supporting us workers
(18:29):
and us small businesses. Wedon't want them going overseas
to be able to acquire componentsand parts, etc. So when we pass
these major pieces oflegislation, and most of them
bipartisan. If we attach theseBuy America requirements, we see
these jobs come home. We have agreat example in southeastern
Wisconsin and Kenosha County ofa company that expanded and
(18:52):
doubled its workforce to makecomponents for our broadband
build out. And why? Because wehad Buy America rules in the
bipartisan infrastructure lawthat said we are going to use
our tax dollars as we build outhigh speed internet so that all
can access it, but thecomponents have to come from the
US. And our prior CommerceSecretary was able to persuade a
(19:16):
foreign company to startproducing their components in
the US so that they could bepurchased here for that program.
It's really, really exciting tosee what those bipartisan
efforts can achieve.
Matt Kirchner (19:30):
And I think regardless of political
persuasion, what we're seeinghere in the United States is
this, we are seeing reshoring ofmanufacturing. We are
recognizing that that needs tobe an absolute fabric, and has
been for generations, if notsince this inception of our
country, such an important partof what makes America America,
that jobs are great, payingjobs, that money reverberates
(19:50):
over and over in the economy.
And so it's it's music to myears to hear you say that
Senator, that there's this, thisbipartisan effort and interest
in reshoring manufacturing. Hereto America as someone that loves
manufacturing, that spent myentire career there, totally,
totally appreciate where you'recoming from. And in as much as
we've got a lot of educatorsthat listen to this podcast
every single week, particularlystem and technical educators, if
(20:12):
do you have a message to them,and is there something maybe, as
you went through youreducational pathway that might
surprise some people in terms ofyour views on education. Oh,
Tammy Baldwin (20:24):
my goodness.
Well, aside from our parents orgrandparents, in my case,
educators that we're exposed tohave probably the biggest impact
on our lives and ourdevelopment, I think about so
many of the teachers that I hadthroughout the years who
inspired me in very differentways, to realize skills that I
didn't know, that I had toinvolve me sometimes in
(20:46):
extracurricular activities thatallowed me to be able to apply
those skills. A quick anecdote,I had a high school math teacher
who also was the cross countrycoach, and asked if I'd
volunteer at Cross Country meetsto do the statistics afterwards
to, you know, calculate whichteam it involved math, right?
(21:06):
Yeah, make sure you were gettingthose scores accurate, etc. And,
you know, I think of so many whoreally pushed me to understand
that I had a capacity to dothings that maybe I didn't know
that I could. And to theeducators out there, you open
worlds for people, you opendoors, and you create pathways
(21:30):
for independence andopportunities and keep it up.
Matt Kirchner (21:37):
Absolutely.
That's great. That's a greatmessage, Senator, and we talk a
lot about on The TechEd Podcast,about the fact that a lot of
times the teacher that does theamazing work they do isn't
necessarily the one with theperfect curriculum or the
perfect way to teach something.
It's that individual thatinspires in us something we
didn't know we had. That's theperfect example the story you
just told about being the statustest and at the track meet,
(21:59):
absolutely beautiful. I do wantto ask you one final question.
It's a question Senator that weask every guest here on The
TechEd Podcast, and that is, ifyou could go back in time, I
believe, 15 years old, maybeMadison West High School, if our
homework is correct, go back tothat sophomore year of high
school. And if you could giveone piece of advice to your
younger self, what would thatbe, I
Tammy Baldwin (22:21):
think that balancing your academic pursuits
with involvement in thecommunity, involvement with your
fellow students, that was reallywhat gave me the whole deal was
not, you know, I was a seriousstudent, but I also had great
fun with a lot ofextracurricular activities, some
(22:43):
of it athletic, but most of ityearbook and student government
and all sorts of components thatreally filled everything out and
allowed me to apply some of thethings I was learning out of my
textbooks in the real world. AndI will say I'm one of the ones
who has several dear friends whoI met back then that are still
(23:06):
to this very day, people that Iam so close to, and so, yeah,
it's the teachers, it's theacademics, but it's also really
being a part of your community,
Matt Kirchner (23:17):
absolutely, being a part of that community, having
a well rounded experience asyou're going through your high
school experience. I, too, havetons of friends that I was tight
with growing up in wauwa, Tulsa,Wisconsin. I know what that's
like to be to stay in touch withpeople like that. Maybe it's
something in the water here inthe state of Wisconsin, not
sure, but one way or the other,Senator, so glad you took the
time to join us here on TheTechEd Podcast. You're welcome
(23:38):
back anytime. Thank you for yourservice to our state and to our
state and to the United Statesof America, and really
appreciate you taking sometime for us today. Thank you for
having me a terrificconversation with
United States senator thehonorable Tammy Baldwin here on
The TechEd Podcast. Thank you somuch for being with us. Lots of
interesting references. We'lllink those up in the show notes.
We do have the best show notesin the business. You will find
(24:00):
them at TechEdpodcast.com/baldwin that is
TechEd podcast.com/b. A, l, D,W, I n, when you're done there,
check us out on social media. Weare all over Facebook, tick
tock, Instagram, LinkedIn,wherever you consume your social
media, you will find The TechEdPodcast. Thank you so much for
(24:20):
being with us this week. We hada wonderful conversation with
us. Senator Tammy Baldwin, myname is Matt Kirkner, this is
The TechEd Podcast, and we willsee you next week. You.
Matt securing the American Dream for the next
generation of STEM and workforcetalent. My name is Matt
Kirchner. I am the host of TheTechEd Podcast. We are talking
this week all things Career,Technical Education with a guest
that, quite honestly, I'm justreally, really honored, took the
time to join us this afternoon.
I am joined today here on TheTechEd Podcast by Senator Tammy
(00:29):
Baldwin, the senator from myhome state of Wisconsin, and
Senator Baldwin, such a pleasureto have you with us. Thanks so
much for coming on.
Tammy Baldwin (00:39):
Well, thank you, Matt. I'm so delighted to get a
chance to join you today. Solet's start out with
Matt Kirchner (00:44):
just an incredible background that your
family has. I think some peoplein Wisconsin and maybe not the
whole nation, know that David EGreen was your grandfather, a
renowned biochemist, and soyou've got this amazing family
history of STEM talk about alittle bit about what it was
like to grow up as a girl and astem family and how that
influenced the way that yourcareer went? Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (01:04):
so I will say, first of all, I was blessed to
be raised by my grandparents,and my grandfather, indeed, was
a biochemist at the Universityof Wisconsin, and my
grandmother, who actuallythought she was an empty nester,
because both my aunt and mymother had left that I came
along, but she had gone back towork, and she also worked at the
(01:24):
University in a very differentfield, and I want to just share
it, because you don't think ofart necessarily as STEM related,
but she was the head costumedesigner for the university
theater. And if you're talkingabout crafting costumes and
stuff, you're talking a lotabout measurements and geometry
and all that stuff. So there wasvery much both of them in fields
(01:47):
where stem was important. Butalso my grandmother's early
career, before she had children,was teaching at an art school,
which at the time was very muchlike a technical college. She
was teaching people to be thecalligraphers who would do the
diplomas at university. She wasteaching people how to do
(02:10):
landscape gardening design. Shewas teaching people how to do
costume fabrication. And sobetween my grandfather and my
grandmother, I felt like thisfocus on education first, but
also education in mygrandmother's realm that gets
you right into a good, payingjob that can support a family
(02:32):
and allows people to pursuetheir dreams and their passions.
And so I really felt like I wasimmersed in that as I was
growing up,
Matt Kirchner (02:41):
you know, I'm so glad you brought it up that way.
I'm fascinated, to be honest,with the convergence between art
and manufacturing, art and stemand I think, you know, we had
Laura Kohler from the Kohlercompany on a year or two ago.
I'm sure you're familiar with, Iknow you're familiar with that
family and that company andgreat Wisconsin employer and
their arts program, sure. And wecould probably do a whole
podcast on that, because I'mreally, really familiar with the
(03:03):
John Michael Kohler Art Centerand the great work that's
happening there. Happy, youbrought that up as well, but we
had this whole conversation withLaura Kohler about the
convergence between STEMmanufacturing, art and so on. I
think a lot of times that getslost in the mix is that there's,
you know, whether we're talkingabout STEM, we're talking about
careers in manufacturing, whichwe have so much of here in
Wisconsin, there's this wholeelement of creativity and this
(03:25):
whole element of engineeringthat goes into the world of art.
And it sounds like that's kindof what your grandmother was
doing in so many ways. Am Igetting that right? Yes,
Tammy Baldwin (03:33):
you are. And there's that expression, Steam,
right? Steam adds the arts rightinto it because of that way in
which they're interwovenAbsolutely.
Matt Kirchner (03:43):
And there was a part of me be honest with you
for a while that was a littlebit like adding that a and to
see into STEM was was a way forthe art folks to maybe get their
hands on some of the money thatwas coming into STEM. And I've
really evolved that thinkingover the course of the last five
or 10 years, and seen how we caninspire young people, whether
they're on the stem side intoalso adding art into that
experience and into theirjourney, and then students that
(04:06):
are on the art side, exposingthem to cool careers in STEM and
manufacturing. I know that'swhat you're doing as part of
this bipartisan CTE caucus,which I'll be honest with you
until reading about it maybe sixmonths ago. I didn't even know
was a thing I spend all my timein career and technical
education. Tell us a little bitabout the congressional work
that's happening in the CTEcaucus, and you're co chairing
that caucus, by the way.
Tammy Baldwin (04:27):
Yeah. So the career and technical education
caucus was founded just aboutthe time I was first elected to
the United States Senate. It'sstrictly bipartisan, and a lot
of the folks who are involved inthe leadership of that caucus
represents states with a lot ofmanufacturing going on, and
understand that four year pathto a career in a four year
(04:51):
college is not everybody's path,and we know that, especially in
a state like Wisconsin with suchan excellent technical college.
System, there are shorterpathways to great jobs, throw in
apprenticeships, which we'llhopefully talk about in a
moment, and you have a way inwhich you can be earning a
(05:13):
family supporting wage veryquickly and doing something
hopefully that you love. One ofthe things that we were tackling
as a caucus were, what are theobstacles that people face to
getting into those great payingjobs and getting into a career
training path that they canafford and that gets them into
(05:35):
those earning positions quickly.
And so a number of areas ofemphasis came out of that,
including the way that peoplecan finance a technical
education to make it affordable,maybe when they don't even
intend to go all the way throughand get the associate's degree
after two years there, but theyreally want the skills for a job
(05:56):
opening one of the things that Ibrought with me to this role in
the CTE caucus was watching someof our technical colleges in
Wisconsin respond to factoryclosings, and you had a
workforce that was displaced,and all of a sudden you had A
(06:17):
mission for our TechnicalCollege to figure out, how can
we retrain these people midcareer for other good, paying
jobs without having them, youknow, have to take out student
loans and really disrupt theirlives. How can we make that as
streamlined as possible to getpeople ahead in challenging
(06:39):
times, and
Matt Kirchner (06:41):
I'm so glad you brought up our incredible
technical college system here inWisconsin. And there's other
states that do amazing work.
I've spent a lot of time inIndiana and Ohio and so on, but
there's nobody who does it likeWisconsin. I co presented at an
event A few weeks ago with LeilaMerrifield, who, as you know, is
the new president of thetechnical college system here in
the state. And I think you'reabsolutely nailing it. Just the
value that that college systembrings, whether it's the work I
(07:03):
get to do on the GatewayFoundation Board at Gateway
Technical College, engaging inmy own time when all 16
technical colleges across thestate of Wisconsin, and if folks
haven't been into a technical orcommunity college in the last 10
years or so, I mean, it's worthtaking another visit. It is just
totally, totally changed andincredible work being done in
support of the next generationof the workforce. So thanks so
(07:25):
much for bringing that up. Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (07:28):
and Matt, whenever I take a tour, I want
to go back to school immediatelywhat I think about and feel when
I'm touring one of our technicalcolleges. And you know, I was
talking about the role they playwhen there's displacements in
our workforce. Big factorycloses, but there's also the
role that they play when newindustry is coming to town, and
(07:49):
so gateway in particular ispreparing for, we hope, a whole
bunch of new jobs insoutheastern Wisconsin and those
industries that are comingcouldn't be successful without
the contributions of ourtechnical college system,
Matt Kirchner (08:05):
and they all point to that as a reason that
they're relocating here. Youknow, we had Mary snap, who's
the Vice President of Strategyfor Microsoft, on about a year
ago, not too long afterMicrosoft made their huge
announcement about theirexpansion in Mount Pleasant and
the pleasant prairie area andjust incredible opportunities
for employees, but we do have toupskill that next generation of
technical talent. All of that,of course, takes funding. And
(08:29):
you know, I'd be interested in acouple thoughts, your viewpoints
from your chair at the nationallevel, Senator, when we think
about where the funding has comefrom. The last several years, we
had the care the Cares Act, wehad ARPA, we had chips and
science. I mean significantamounts of federal funding, in
many cases, being funneledthrough the states and into our
technical colleges, into ourSTEM programs, in our high
schools, in our universities.
What are your thoughts now onthe state of funding and where
(08:51):
funding is going to come from?
Are we going to see more shiftto the states? Is it going to
stay federal, maybe in a newform? What are you expecting?
Yeah,
Tammy Baldwin (09:00):
well, I do think this is going to be a rather
chaotic time. There's an effortto, well, eliminate the US,
Department of Education, that,in my opinion, cannot happen
without congressional action,but we do see some dismantling
and some defunding, and sofasten your seat belts. This can
be a very challenging time.
We're going to get through it,but it's not going to be easy.
(09:21):
One of the areas that I justmentioned a few minutes ago,
though, where I hope we can upour efforts, and we can do so by
working together across partylines, etc, is to make sure that
the financial aid that peoplecan draw upon to attend
technical colleges can extend toshorter term programs. Thank
(09:43):
you. So we're talking aboutupskilling or re skilling,
talking about preparing an areaof the state for a new industry
coming to town, needing to havea robust workforce. Sometimes
you really only require acouple. Semester's worth of
coursework, or even a shorterterm program that could be put
together in concert withindustry in order to prepare the
(10:07):
workforce for that to be able tomake sure that our financial aid
programs are nimble enough tohelp students afford a shorter
term program without having tosay, Oh, I'm going to pursue a
two year degree and then renegeon that. We don't want to put
our students in the position offibbing in order to get
financial aid. So I think that'ssomething that we can pursue at
(10:30):
the national level that willbring some revenue into the
technical college systems acrossthis country and certainly in
Wisconsin too. Yeah,
Matt Kirchner (10:43):
I couldn't agree with you more on the value of
short term training youmentioned a little while ago.
You go to a technical collegeand you want to go back to
school. The truth is thatopportunity is available for a
lot of us as we think aboutlifelong learning and needing to
change our skills over thecourse of careers. I have the
honor of serving on the NationalBoard for the smart automation
certification Alliance. And Ithink just about every one of
(11:03):
our colleges here in Wisconsinare issuing those certifications
in one form or another, just oneexample of how we don't
necessarily have to commit totwo years or four years as we
upskill ourselves and prepareourselves for whatever comes
next in our career. So reallyglad that you mentioned that
aspect, because I agree withyou. I think that making sure
we've got funding for short termtraining is going to be really,
really important. The otherthing, I think, and you
(11:25):
mentioned already, Senator,that's going to be really
interesting to watch is thiswhole evolution of
apprenticeships. And I know thatthere was some news that came
out of the administration lastweek on focusing through labor,
through commerce and education,those three departments, and not
exactly sure what form that'lltake about supporting registered
apprenticeships, which typicallyhaven't been necessarily a model
(11:46):
that has been supported from theright more so the left. What are
your thoughts on that? And whatdo apprenticeships look like?
You mentioned that earlier, sotell us your thoughts there.
Tammy Baldwin (11:53):
Yeah. Well, Matt, I first want to take the
bragging rights. Wisconsin wasthe first state in the country
to pass an apprenticeship lawback in 1911 That's right. I
think many of our immigrants whocame to Wisconsin settled our
state, brought those traditionsfrom Europe with them. So I'm
not surprised that Wisconsin wasthe first state to have such a
(12:15):
law. The US followed suit in1937 by passing the National
Apprenticeship act, and that acthas not been reauthorized or
modernized since then, and so Ihave been proud to lead a
bipartisan effort to reauthorizeour National Apprenticeship laws
(12:35):
and modernize them, because, aswe all know, industry nearly a
century ago, is very differentthan industry is today, and we
need to be better equipped tobring maybe new, novel
apprenticeships into existenceand also enable smaller and
(12:56):
medium sized businesses to beable to participate In
apprenticeship programs. I thinkoften they self select out of
that, saying, Oh, we're toosmall. Those are big factories,
big manufacturing enterprisesthat have apprenticeships within
their ranks, or it's the tradeunions, but we can't do it
because we're just a five personshop. Well, there are ways where
(13:20):
we can get small businesses,medium sized businesses, to work
together to be able to sponsoran apprenticeship program. There
are apprenticeships that havebeen introduced in recent years
that didn't exist severaldecades ago, and so I am really
excited to create thisopportunity to modernize these
(13:40):
laws. And why does it matter?
Again, it goes back to can youafford to get the skills you
need to land that great payingjob that gives you economic
security and a place in themiddle class? Well, when you can
earn while you learn, the ideaof an apprenticeship is so
incredibly important. That's howyou make it work. And the
(14:03):
technical college system plays abig role in many of our
apprenticeship programs,sometimes offering the
coursework one day a week whenthe apprentices are all at
school, and then the remainingfour days a week they're back at
their facility or out in thefield. But that ability to earn
while you learn is so important,and I have talked to so many
(14:24):
people who have becomejourneymen. And what would you
tell your high school self, orif you had a chance to go back
to your high school and talk tosome of the young people there,
what would you tell them aboutthe opportunities and the doors
that an apprenticeship openedand to a one, they've all been
very, very encouraging of thatpath. And it doesn't mean that
(14:46):
higher education isn't stillavailable to you later down the
road. Should you choose? Butyou're not starting out your
career in debt, and that'ssomething. There's a lot to be
said for that absolutely.
Matt Kirchner (15:00):
Absolutely. I mean higher education of any
kind, incredibly valuable. Ithink we all agree on that, but
I love the way that you kind ofwove that answer together,
talking about the importance ofthe classroom aspect of an
apprenticeship and and certainlythe on the job training. And I
think, as you know Senator, Ispent 25 years in manufacturing
companies, leading Wisconsinmanufacturing companies, we did
a ton of on the job training,but there's nothing like putting
(15:21):
a student in a lab, putting themin a classroom, putting them
into a technical college, a highschool program where they're
learning, and accelerating thatlearning in a lot of ways, so
that they're workforce readywhen they get to the workplace.
Super, super important.
Tammy Baldwin (15:33):
And Matt, you just mentioned something that I
failed to mention, and that is,many of our high schools in
Wisconsin are already offeringin high school classes that can
give you technical collegecredit. Totally, there are some
students who actually graduatehigh school with an associate's
degree. That's not I do, noteverywhere, but the way in which
(15:55):
high schools are increasinglyworking with the technical
colleges in their region toapprove courses, or if the high
school isn't equipped to offerthose allowing the student to
leave one afternoon to go to thetechnical college campus, take
those courses. There all ofthese things are huge
advancements that allow ouryoung people to be job ready,
(16:19):
Career Ready, much earlier onand again without debt. And
Matt Kirchner (16:23):
I think about the creativity that's gone into
programs such as, there's a newautomation leadership degree at
UW Stout. It's had hugebipartisan support in the state
of Wisconsin, where students areearning credit in high school,
literally, are able to start abaccalaureate degree program
with 88 credits into 120 creditbaccalaureate degree when they
about a year after they leavehigh school through doing things
(16:43):
at their high school and theirtechnical college. Just one more
incredible example. Dr, Frank,the chancellor, they're doing
incredible work on thatparticular degree program. It's
so interesting. Senator, youknow, you think about maybe what
our audience listens to on theradio, or he sees on TV, or sees
on social media, and like fairamount of vitriol, I think is
probably maybe even understatingit when we think about things
(17:04):
going on in Washington. Butyeah, when we talk about topics
like this, and we say, you know,our mission is to secure the
American Dream for the nextgeneration of STEM and workforce
talent. Doesn't matter who youvoted for last time or you're
going to vote for next time. Ifyou agree with that mission,
we're on the same team. Is thathow you're seeing it when it
comes to career and technicaleducation in Washington, DC.
Talk about that a little bit.
Yeah. Well,
Tammy Baldwin (17:24):
as I mentioned earlier, our Career and
Technical Education caucus thatwe formed just about the time I
joined the United States Senate,it's very bipartisan, and we
bring in speakers on topicsregardless of their political
leaning. I think, about some ofthe top manufacturing states,
many of them are represented byDemocrats, or many are
(17:46):
represented by Republicans, butit's really a way for us to work
together. And I do want to talkabout or raise another issue
that I think really blendsacross party lines, and that is
the idea of Buy America rulesand requirements, and the role
that that plays in keepingmanufacturing jobs here, from
(18:06):
keeping them from goingoverseas, but also in some
cases, reshoring them when theyhave left because of prior poor
industrial policy, and now we'reable to bring them back. And so
I consider myself a hugechampion of Buy America rules,
and it's the simple idea thatwhen we're spending taxpayer
dollars, we want those taxpayerdollars supporting us workers
(18:29):
and us small businesses. Wedon't want them going overseas
to be able to acquire componentsand parts, etc. So when we pass
these major pieces oflegislation, and most of them
bipartisan. If we attach theseBuy America requirements, we see
these jobs come home. We have agreat example in southeastern
Wisconsin and Kenosha County ofa company that expanded and
(18:52):
doubled its workforce to makecomponents for our broadband
build out. And why? Because wehad Buy America rules in the
bipartisan infrastructure lawthat said we are going to use
our tax dollars as we build outhigh speed internet so that all
can access it, but thecomponents have to come from the
US. And our prior CommerceSecretary was able to persuade a
(19:16):
foreign company to startproducing their components in
the US so that they could bepurchased here for that program.
It's really, really exciting tosee what those bipartisan
efforts can achieve.
Matt Kirchner (19:30):
And I think regardless of political
persuasion, what we're seeinghere in the United States is
this, we are seeing reshoring ofmanufacturing. We are
recognizing that that needs tobe an absolute fabric, and has
been for generations, if notsince this inception of our
country, such an important partof what makes America America,
that jobs are great, payingjobs, that money reverberates
(19:50):
over and over in the economy.
And so it's it's music to myears to hear you say that
Senator, that there's this, thisbipartisan effort and interest
in reshoring manufacturing. Hereto America as someone that loves
manufacturing, that spent myentire career there, totally,
totally appreciate where you'recoming from. And in as much as
we've got a lot of educatorsthat listen to this podcast
every single week, particularlystem and technical educators, if
(20:12):
do you have a message to them,and is there something maybe, as
you went through youreducational pathway that might
surprise some people in terms ofyour views on education. Oh,
Tammy Baldwin (20:24):
my goodness.
Well, aside from our parents orgrandparents, in my case,
educators that we're exposed tohave probably the biggest impact
on our lives and ourdevelopment, I think about so
many of the teachers that I hadthroughout the years who
inspired me in very differentways, to realize skills that I
didn't know, that I had toinvolve me sometimes in
(20:46):
extracurricular activities thatallowed me to be able to apply
those skills. A quick anecdote,I had a high school math teacher
who also was the cross countrycoach, and asked if I'd
volunteer at Cross Country meetsto do the statistics afterwards
to, you know, calculate whichteam it involved math, right?
(21:06):
Yeah, make sure you were gettingthose scores accurate, etc. And,
you know, I think of so many whoreally pushed me to understand
that I had a capacity to dothings that maybe I didn't know
that I could. And to theeducators out there, you open
worlds for people, you opendoors, and you create pathways
(21:30):
for independence andopportunities and keep it up.
Matt Kirchner (21:37):
Absolutely.
That's great. That's a greatmessage, Senator, and we talk a
lot about on The TechEd Podcast,about the fact that a lot of
times the teacher that does theamazing work they do isn't
necessarily the one with theperfect curriculum or the
perfect way to teach something.
It's that individual thatinspires in us something we
didn't know we had. That's theperfect example the story you
just told about being the statustest and at the track meet,
(21:59):
absolutely beautiful. I do wantto ask you one final question.
It's a question Senator that weask every guest here on The
TechEd Podcast, and that is, ifyou could go back in time, I
believe, 15 years old, maybeMadison West High School, if our
homework is correct, go back tothat sophomore year of high
school. And if you could giveone piece of advice to your
younger self, what would thatbe, I
Tammy Baldwin (22:21):
think that balancing your academic pursuits
with involvement in thecommunity, involvement with your
fellow students, that was reallywhat gave me the whole deal was
not, you know, I was a seriousstudent, but I also had great
fun with a lot ofextracurricular activities, some
(22:43):
of it athletic, but most of ityearbook and student government
and all sorts of components thatreally filled everything out and
allowed me to apply some of thethings I was learning out of my
textbooks in the real world. AndI will say I'm one of the ones
who has several dear friends whoI met back then that are still
(23:06):
to this very day, people that Iam so close to, and so, yeah,
it's the teachers, it's theacademics, but it's also really
being a part of your community,
Matt Kirchner (23:17):
absolutely, being a part of that community, having
a well rounded experience asyou're going through your high
school experience. I, too, havetons of friends that I was tight
with growing up in wauwa, Tulsa,Wisconsin. I know what that's
like to be to stay in touch withpeople like that. Maybe it's
something in the water here inthe state of Wisconsin, not
sure, but one way or the other,Senator, so glad you took the
time to join us here on TheTechEd Podcast. You're welcome
(23:38):
back anytime. Thank you for yourservice to our state and to our
state and to the United Statesof America, and really
appreciate you taking sometime for us today. Thank you for
having me a terrificconversation with
United States senator thehonorable Tammy Baldwin here on
The TechEd Podcast. Thank you somuch for being with us. Lots of
interesting references. We'lllink those up in the show notes.
We do have the best show notesin the business. You will find
(24:00):
them at TechEdpodcast.com/baldwin that is
TechEd podcast.com/b. A, l, D,W, I n, when you're done there,
check us out on social media. Weare all over Facebook, tick
tock, Instagram, LinkedIn,wherever you consume your social
media, you will find The TechEdPodcast. Thank you so much for
(24:20):
being with us this week. We hada wonderful conversation with
us. Senator Tammy Baldwin, myname is Matt Kirkner, this is
The TechEd Podcast, and we willsee you next week. You.
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