The Rules for Earning College Credit Are Changing, and Competency (Not Time in Seats) Matters Most - Dr. Paul Carlsen, President of Lakeshore College - The TechEd Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Matt Kirchner (00:00):
Matt, welcome into the TechEd podcast. This is

(00:10):
Matt Kirkner, your host. We talkall the time on the podcast
about how we love our Technicaland Community colleges across
the United States of America.
It's an option that for a longtime a lot of students maybe
weren't even aware of weren'tnecessarily considering and as
we move into the future ofeducation, giving students
options as they move out ofsecondary education into
whatever comes after, whetherthat's going to the workforce,

(00:32):
whether it's going to auniversity, whether it's going
into the military, choosing oneof our great technical and
community colleges across theUnited States of America, I
believe more and more studentsare waking up to the fact that
they've got options, and for somany of them, the Technical and
Community College route is aperfect option. We're going to
talk about that and a number ofother topics today with an

(00:52):
individual who leads aninstitution I know well. It's
Lakeshore college in my homestate of Wisconsin. Paul Carlson
is the president there doingincredible things, really,
really innovative things at thatcollege. And so as we get into
this conversation with Paul,let's keep a couple things in
mind, first of all, all thegreat opportunities for our
students and others at ourcommunity and technical
colleges, and also the fact thateducation is innovating now at

(01:15):
warp speed. And what educationlooked like 10 years ago isn't
what education looks like today.
And more important, whateducation is going to look like
five and 10 years from now isn'twhat it looks like today. And so
we're in this phase ofincredible disruption,
incredible innovation, and withme to talk about all of that, is
Paul Carlson, president ofLakeshore college. And Paul,

(01:38):
thanks so much for coming on.

Paul Carlsen (01:40):
Hey Matt, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be
here and talk about all thegreat things of Lakeshore
Technical College and theWisconsin Technical College
System with

you. Absolutely.
And there are many great things,and I've seen them firsthand
taking place at Lakeshorecollege. I want to start by
talking a little bit about yourbackground, which is kind of an
interesting and I think, aninvigorating background into the
world of education and technicaleducation, both in terms of
geographically, where you werespending time in the types of
roles that you were in. So youkind of came of age in the world
of workforce development andeconomic development, even more

(02:08):
important in the southeast andstates like Louisiana and South
Carolina. So talk a little bitabout how, as opposed to maybe
somebody who came up through atraditional education route,
your background in economicdevelopment influences the way
you think about leadingLakeshore college.

Yeah. So right out of grad school, Matt took a job
with the South CarolinaDepartment of Commerce, and then
about a year and a half later,took a job with Louisiana
economic development, theirstatewide economic development
entity. And I really enjoyedeconomic development work. It's
where the public sector and theprivate sector intersect, and it
gave me a front seat viewing ofthe transformational impact good

(02:49):
jobs can have on communities, onpeople and families. But those
good jobs aren't going to cometo places unless there are one
people to fill those jobs, twopeople with the skills to fill
those jobs, or three people havethe capacity to get the skills
to fill the job. So really likedworking in that sector,

(03:10):
connecting families with goodpaying jobs at places like
Boeing, BMW, Sasol IBM, and thenI just had this opportunity in
working in the Louisianagovernment to start
collaborating with the LouisianaCommunity and Technical College
and technical college system onhow we could be working together
to bring large economicdevelopment projects to areas
and provide training for them.
And that was my first foray intotwo year colleges. Then I had

(03:32):
the opportunity to make atransition from economic
development to that same system,Louisiana Community and
Technical College System, andthat's where I just fell in love
with two year open accesscommunity and technical
colleges, where people are goingto get skills to take jobs that
will have transformationalimpacts for generations in their
family.

I think back to my days Paul of running
manufacturing companies here inthe Midwest and doing expansions
in other states. And it used tobe, the first thing we would
look at when we were expandinginto a new territory is
proximity to customers andproximity to suppliers, right?
Super, super important to drivesome of that transportation
waste out. The second thing wewould look at would be things
like economic incentives. Inother words, who is willing to

(04:15):
give us the best tax breaks orthe most funding to participate
in expansion? The third thingmaybe, or maybe even further
down the list, was workforceright? And now, when you look at
how organizations,manufacturing, companies and
others are thinking aboutexpanding into a new geography,
really, that workforce piece isthe absolute first thing is that
what you were finding when youwere in states like Louisiana

(04:37):
and South Carolina, that overthe course of time, became more
and more important, yeah, to

the point where it was the primary driver of site
selection. Because when we weredown in the southeast and the
Gulf Coast in that area, at theend of the day, most of the
incentive packages wererelatively equal once you got to
that final stage. So they're allon a level playing field. In
that sense, when you addeverything up. Up, but it was,
it's that availability ofworkers, right? The availability

(05:03):
of skilled workers, access totraining institutions like
Community Technical Colleges,access to universities. So not
just the people, but thecapacity to upskill those people
became a principal driver,especially on major, major
projects that were employinghundreds, 1000s of people, giant
capital expenditure investments.
They need the people to fillthem

exactly. And so you've got access to workforce,
current workers that can fillpositions as they're becoming
open. And so that's really,really important. What is the
skill set in the workforce inthe area into which I'm
expanding? And then the otherquestion, or the other thought
on this, and I'll put it into abaseball analogy, but the
Brewers have built an amazingbaseball team primarily through
their farm system. And then wethink about the farm system in a

(05:47):
state like Louisiana or SouthCarolina or Wisconsin. To us, I
think about that farm system forlabor, that farm system for a
skilled workforce, really is, inmany ways, our Technical and
Community Colleges, right?
That's where we're creating thenext generation of talent.
That's where we're going tobuild the World Series of
economic development in the nextfive or 10 years by building
that incredible talent in thecommunity colleges. And as we

(06:08):
mentioned in the intro, I thinkmore and more, not just
students, but actually employersas well, are starting to
understand the importance ofthat farm system in the context
of a community or technicalcollege. Do you see the same
thing where we're not only justlooking at was the availability
my workforce today, but they'realso doing due diligence on what
is the ability of the educationsystem in whatever region that
is to create that nextgeneration of talent.

Oh, absolutely.
And when you think of communityand technical colleges, the farm
system is a really great analogythere, because for Lakeshore
College, we have 98% of ourstudents are local, and when
they graduate, they stay local,and that statistic is common
across the two year collegesector. So I really have to
think of them as a farm systemfor employers, for the backbones

(06:54):
of communities. But absolutelyso, companies that are
expanding, companies that arerelocating or simply trying to
retain where they are. Arelooking more deeply at Community
Technical Colleges and theircapacity to not just deliver
skills today, but how can theyscale what they're doing to meet
the workforce needs of tomorrowand the next decade.

And I want to hang for a moment on something
you said, about 98% of yourstudents are coming from the
region. I guess that doesn'tsurprise me so much, right? I
mean, if you're living in aspecific region, you're going to
go to a technical college. Youprobably go into the technical
college in the district or theregion that you live in, most
likely. But 98% of them stay. Imean, that is so they're getting
a skill, and it doesn't matterwhether that's in healthcare,

(07:36):
whether it's in advancedmanufacturing, whether it's in
public safety, law enforcement,what have you they're staying in
their local community. I didn'trealize the number was that
high. That's fascinating.

Yeah, when you think about the typical age of a
student at Lakeshore college is26 years old. There'll be some
deviation from that at technicalcolleges across the state, but
that's going to hold generallyfor most of them. But when you
think of a 26 year old coming toa technical college, they often
are established in thecommunity. Right graduated high
school in the community, perhapsthey're working in the

(08:06):
community. Many of our studentshave children, and they're
coming to the college to providea better life for their children
and their families andthemselves. So they're already
established in the community,and we're very fortunate in
Northeast Wisconsin to have tonsof major employers who will
invest in their employees to goand upskill and provide them a

(08:27):
career trajectory where they'vealready started working right
out of high school.

So many points that you made there that I think
are important to note. The firstone is we always think, or at
least I often think aboutTechnical and Community Colleges
as an amazing choice to bemaking after high school. But it
doesn't always necessarily meanright after high school. If the
average age is 26 and we bothknow that moves around a little
bit, but it's usually somewherein the mid 20s, kind of
depending upon what's going onin the rest of the economy. So

(08:50):
if the average student is a 26year old student, obviously most
of those, if not all thosepeople, are already in the
workforce. They're alreadyworking. They're upskilling.
Maybe they've been affected bysome kind of a dislocation in
the workforce or in an employer.
So they're coming back to schoolon a full time basis to gain
skills to move their careerforward. Maybe they're studying,
probably likely studying whilethey have a job as well, and

(09:10):
raising a family and doing allthese other things. So just a
really good example of howimportant that aspect of our
Technical and Community CollegeSystem is, is the fact that
we're reaching not just studentscoming out of high school and
deciding what they want to dofor the rest of their life, or
at least for the next step intheir career, but also
individuals that are, in somecases well into their working
life and coming back, either ontheir own or maybe with the

(09:34):
support of their employer, togain skills as we advance into
this new economy, which isChanging, as you and I both
know, incredibly, incrediblyquickly. So I'd be curious, you
spent time in the southeast. Didyou grow up there? I should ask
you

that. No, I grew up in Colorado, and I ended up
in the southeast. When I went toget my doctorate, went to the
University of Georgia. I was onan SF grant, and then just
stayed in the region after that,got it.

So starting in Colorado, which is another state
that I love, what part.
Colorado,

Colorado Springs.
My dad was in the service.
Awesome. Retired there in 1993Oh,

beautiful. Yep, interstate 25 shoots, right? I
think south from Denver toColorado Springs. And spend my
fair share of time in that areaas well. Beautiful, beautiful
area as is the southeast, as isin some cases, I would say no
more beautiful place thanWisconsin. No, I agree with
that. Awesome. So somebody, I'vebeen here my whole life, so my
opinion is probably a bitbiased, but for someone who

(10:24):
spent other time in otherplaces, beautiful, beautiful
state, what made you decide a,to come to a state like
Wisconsin in the Midwest, and B,to lead a community college, a
technical college, in this case,like Lakeshore College,

sure, you know, I got to a point with the
Louisiana Community TechnicalCollege System, where I was
working in their system officewith a lot of oversight, and
that system office, at the time,provided governance for 12
Community Technical collegesacross the state. And I like the
system work. I like creatingstructures that were impacting

(10:56):
two year colleges statewide. Butwhat I found that I liked more
than all that stuff, wasinteracting with students, and
you still have a lot of time todo that. The system office.
Students don't enroll the systemoffice. They go to the various
colleges. And I got to a point Ithought, Man, I think I'm ready
to Captain my own ship here. Andeven though there's 11 102 year

(11:16):
colleges across the country,right, they all have openings at
once. But I was contacted by arecruiter when an opening came
at Lakeshore College. Theprevious president I had
announced his retirement, MikeLancer, longtime college
employee, longtime, veryimpactful, great college
president. And as I started tolook at Lakeshore college, it
checked a lot of boxes for us.
One, it's a small community andtechnical college, and that

(11:40):
allows it to pivot quicker thanjust a large, behemoth college
just and it was workforcefocused. So in Louisiana, that
is a very workforce focusedsystem. So that was something I
wanted to make sure I wasinvesting my time and energy and
into an institution that wasworkforce focused, but it also
had local control. So that'ssomething I think that's very
important for a Community andTechnical College. Community

(12:02):
Technical College, that it'slocally governed, and that the
entire community has skin in thegame for that institution
success. So I checked a lot ofthose boxes the region. Checked
a ton of boxes in NortheastWisconsin for my family and I,
very safe communities. Publicschools are really fantastic. In
Northeast Wisconsin, for sure,you have four seasons and a

(12:23):
great quality of life. So inLouisiana, if we were still
there, our girls will be takingbusses to school. Would take
them about 3045, minutes to getthere. Right now, we live in the
village of Kohler. We live ablock from the school. Our girls
walk to and from there's bikeson everybody's yard. Super safe.
Great community for a family.
Absolutely

wonderful, wonderful community. And I think
he did a nice job of comparingand contrasting. Paul, the
difference between the qualityof life in Northeast Wisconsin
and your college, by the way,for our listeners, is probably
what an hour north of Milwaukee,maybe, give or

take. Yeah, Cleveland, Wisconsin, great
village, or just right on thecounty line between Sheboygan,
Mantua counties, Yep,

exactly. So very much on the eastern end of the
state, right over by LakeMichigan, a little little bit
north of Milwaukee. Beautiful,beautiful area. So you talked
about the experiences yourfamily's having and your kids
are having in terms of proximityto school and so on. Difference
how it would have been inLouisiana. Other differences you
would see, particularlytechnical community colleges
between the southeast are theremaybe more similarities than

(13:24):
differences. But what are someof the differences that you
would know some

similarities, I think, at all two year college
nationwide is a fundamentalcommitment to the open access
mission of teaching the studentwho walks through your doors. We
don't make students go throughan application process. We don't
turn anybody away. So at everycollege, every two year college,
from faculty to staff topresidents, they're all really
focused on that mission, whichis phenomenal. I think something

(13:49):
that's really unique inWisconsin is our laser alignment
with our local employers, sure,and every program, every degree
The college offers has anindustry advisory board made up
of people who are employed inthe fields that will hire those
graduates. And those advisoryboards can go from 10 people to

(14:13):
20 people, and they're givingfeedback and telling our college
what skills need to be taught,what equipment needs to be used
so that our graduates are set upfor maximum success in the
workforce when they graduate.
You have advisory committeesthroughout the sector, in some
states and not others, but inWisconsin, and I say this in a

(14:35):
good way, it's like advisorycommittees on steroids that
create a real stickiness for thecollege and our employers, and
that's true of all the WisconsinTechnical College System
schools. I think that reallysets our system apart from the
rest of the country, you know.

And I think you make an important point in the
distinction between a noncentralized model and a
centralized model for Technicaland Community Colleges. And. Not
that one is necessarily good orbad or better or worse, because
there's advantages to both. Butyou think about a state like
Indiana, Ivy Tech, which istheir statewide Technical
Community College System. In alot of ways, the entire system
moves in unison certain benefitsto that, certainly in terms of

(15:14):
getting things done,implementation, standardization
and so on. As opposed to a statelike Wisconsin, 16 technical
colleges across the state ofWisconsin, every one of them
with their own board, and thereis a state system, but almost
all the decisions are made atthe local level. A lot of the
funding comes from the locallevel. And then to your point,
the connection you have to yourindividual employers, and the

(15:35):
ability to pivot the college inwhatever direction your
employers are thinking you needto go that. I mean, there is a
difference. And I spend timewith both models, and we see
both of them across the Midwestand across the United States,
but that is an importantdistinction for

Wisconsin. Yeah, very well said. And to go back
to the Kohler company, I think agreat example of that is a
little over 10 years ago, thecore company came to the
college. Then President Lancerwas running the college, and
said, hey, you need to expandand modernize your advanced
manufacturing footprint, right?
And because we aredecentralized, and Kohler is a

(16:08):
major employer, we're able tosay, Yeah, let's do that. So
Kohler helped guide that projectthat was ultimately the Kohler
center for manufacturingexcellence. But we also had
other major employers as part ofthat, we had Sargento,
Johnsonville, Haydn, and so wehave that nimbleness, that when
an employer says, Hey, we reallyneed you to change course. Here,
we can do that right, and wedon't have to wait for an entire

(16:31):
state apparatus to get on boardfor it to happen.

So that flexibility really, really
important in terms of workingwith employers, in terms of
serving whatever stakeholders wehave, outside of our students,
which are really, reallyimportant, probably the most
important aspect of a communitycollege, but being able to pivot
and change and cater to specificgroups of employers to make sure
that we're creating thatworkforce that they're looking
for, that's a key aspect,another key aspect of

(16:57):
flexibility in education, Ibelieve, is making sure that
we're tying competencies to whatthose employers are looking for,
right? And you think about atypical associate degree
program, four semesters, a wholeseries of courses, all broken
down into credits, can befurther broken down into
competencies. And you know whereI'm going with this, you're a
huge advocate for competencybased education and a leader in

(17:19):
that regard. Tell our audience alittle bit about CBE, why it's
important, and how the collegeis flexing its model around
competencies.

Yeah, so competency based education, or
CBE transitions learning fromtime based to competency based.
And so you gave a great exampleof under a time based model, an
associate degree takes twoyears, and you have your classes
aligned sequentially, and youhave to spend your two years

(17:49):
getting that degree right,regardless of what you already
know coming into it. You stillhave to wait your time to get
that degree, regardless of howquickly you can learn you still
have to wait the two years. Orif you need a little bit more
time, you can not really get it,but as long as you keep a C, you
can continue to graduate in thattwo year time. And when I think

(18:11):
about a C, right? A C grade,many of us wouldn't buy a house
if it was inspected and thegrades were A, B, C, D and F,
and you had a C, we'd probablywant that right? So we said,
well, let's turn this modelupside down into a competency
based model. So under competencybased education, we've taken an
associate degree working withour employers, and just found

(18:33):
every competency that is part ofthat degree. And when a student
comes in, they can come in eighttimes throughout the year, and
they can demonstratecompetencies at the speed that
makes sense for them, as fast asthey want to or as slow as they
want to. Although we want themto go fast, because people want
degrees to better their lives,we want them to graduate sooner

(18:55):
rather than later, right? Theydo too. But what's great about
the competency based model, inaddition to the student
flexibility is you either knowthe competency or you don't
right, and you get multipleattempts to demonstrate your
skill level, and you don't moveon to the next competency until
you're met the previouscompetencies. So what we found

(19:16):
is these competency basedprograms that we've rolled out.
In fact, now more than 50% ofour degrees are competency based
education. We're seeing more andmore incumbent workers coming to
the college to say, Hey, I tooka couple of classes in CNC
machining three or four yearsago, and I got a job after the
first semester, and because ofthe previous time based model, I

(19:40):
had to choose between workingand paying the bills or coming
to school between eight and fivewhen I was working, I just can't
do that. But with the competencybased model, they say, Hey, now
I have the flexibility to havemy job and then learn outside of
that job at a pace that makessense for me, which has been
really fantastic. And so like Isaid. Over half of our programs

(20:01):
are competency based education,and I will brag a little bit
here, we are a leader on thisfront. Well, you went to the
White House to talk. I did,yeah, and we talked there about
how we scaled it right, and werapidly scaled it post COVID
One, because our Board ofTrustees encouraged us to go in
that direction. And once we hadsuccess, our first program was
CNC machining, where we had anawesome group of faculty said,

(20:24):
we want to try CBE. They hit ahome run. And then, you know how
that is, you have successhappening in one part. And
people say, hey, well, what'shappening over there? I think
I'd like to be part of thatsuccess. And it snowballed. And
so we take a lot of pride inbeing a CBE institution.
Requires a ton of work fromeverybody at the college. You
change systems, you change howyou process federal financial

(20:45):
aid, how you advise students,you change how you teach
students. But you know, Iapplaud everyone at the college
for all their great work andmaking it possible, because we
believe it ultimately produces abetter education for the
students, especially on theskills trade side, because
again, they are graduatinghaving met all those
competencies they're not meetingat sea level. Meet them or they
don't. And so we're producingmore quality graduates, from a

(21:08):
workforce perspective, who areable to hit the ground running,
wherever they end up workingwell.

And as somebody who spent all those years, as I
did, running manufacturingcompanies here in state of
Wisconsin and around theMidwest, I kind of think about
the analogy you use about do youwant the CU house or do you want
the a house? If you're hiring astudent, a graduate, do you want
the C student, or do you wantthe a student? The answer is,
I'm less concerned about whatgrade they got and more
concerned about, do they knowhow to do what I'm hiring them

(21:36):
to do. And so this wholecompetency based model says
we're going to make sure thatyou have that competency. And,
oh, by the way, if you're a highflyer and you can zip through
this stuff and you already gotit, or you learned it in another
job, or whatever, we're notgoing to make you sit through
that again. If you're a studentthat, and we all have our areas
in which we take a little bitmore time, I certainly do. If
you're a student that needs alittle bit more time, or maybe
it takes a couple swings inorder to hit the ball, no

(21:59):
worries, you're going to takeyour time. You're gonna go
through that at your pace. Andwhat's important isn't how
quickly you got through it.
What's important isn'tnecessarily that letter that
goes after your name or yourgrade or that course. What's
important is, do you know it, ordo you not

know it? Yeah. And to add to everything you just
said there, Matt, it alsocreates an instructional model
where it is tailored to eachindividual person, not to a
classroom. Great point. And Ithink about my time in college,
there were some things that Ineed a little more time on I
just didn't

Unknown (22:29):
get. But it didn't matter. We realized accounting
was one of mine, by the way,

anything math related, hey, so. But we all
moved on at the same time. Butnow with CBE again, everyone's
moving at their own pace, andour faculty have really
rethought and repurposed howthey're teaching, approaching
students and having moreimpactful student interaction,
student teaching moments thanthey were previously, because
again, you're customizing forthat individual student. And one

(22:55):
other thing I want to add abouta CBE is even though we
deconstructed the degrees andthe competencies, students still
graduate with a associatedegree, right? And they still
have a transcript with grades onit. That's a lot of back office
kind of crosswalks that happenthere. But it's still a college
degree, fully accredited, fullyfinancial aid eligible, fully
transferable,

so it checks both boxes. We're not blowing up the
model. It's still a traditionalassociates degree. However,
we're also basing it oncompetencies, so you get the
best of both worlds. You know,we joke sometimes Paul in
education that change comes toeducation one retirement at a
time, or I've even heard it putone death at a time. That's a
little bit morbid. You talkedabout like your CNC faculty that
said, we want to lead on this.
I'm asking a loaded question,because in any organization, we

(23:36):
know that there are people thatmight be a little bit slower to
change. Talk about that changemanagement. Did everybody jump
on board? Or how do you workthrough some of those changes
over time? Well,

it was not overnight, right? And like is
your loaded question, therepeople hopped on board with
varying degrees of energy andexcitement. Sure. So CNC was
where we started, because peoplewere jobbing out. That was a
program where you had goodenrollments, low retention, low
graduation rates. And we'rethinking, how can you maintain a

(24:07):
program like this, where folksare leaving after the first
semester

and jobbing out is as you speak slang, of
course, for those that may notknow that word, it's you're
halfway through or partwaythrough a degree program, and
your skills that you've gainedare so valuable to the
marketplace that an employercomes in and swoops you up and
employs you before you

complete your degree, and that's a win for the
student who was coming to get abetter life for them and their
families. But we had createdthat structure that allowed once
somebody jobed out, thatprevented them from coming back,
because, again, we weren'taltering anything, right, right
in terms of hours and all that.
So they dived into that programreally led us on that front to
be our first program to shift toCNC machining success brought in

(24:46):
another group of folks, becausejobbing out is something that's
relevant to all of ourmanufacturing programs. And so
education has evolved. A tonover the centuries it's been
around. We were simply at apoint in our environment in
Northeast Wisconsin, whereunemployment continues to be

(25:07):
record low, our advancedmanufacturing companies in
Mantua and Sheboygan countiesneed more and more people, right
that we're looking at, you know,the long term viability of an
institution that continues to dowhat did what it always did,
that came into question. So howare we going to evolve to make
sure we're relevant today andtomorrow? You know, it takes
time to change structures, andwe were no different at

(25:31):
Lakeshore college, but it helpedimmensely that the board of
trustees, our nine member boardof trustees, were entirely
bought in, right? Hugedifference. It does. And so
there was about a three yearperiod, maybe two to three
years, where we had a standingupdate on our board agenda, that
was competency based educationupdate, where we're coming and

(25:51):
talking about, hey, here's theprograms, here's the pain
points. We're making progress onthis goal. You said there was
very ambitious goal in 2020 saidby 2025, transition, everything
you can to competency basededucation, unless there's safety
concerns or accreditationconcerns. Got it is a lofty
goal. I think we understood weprobably wouldn't get there, but
we were striving for that,having that at the top, and that

(26:14):
commitment that this isn't afad, this isn't something that
in a year when a new softwarecomes out, we're going to change
right? We're in it for the longrun. And so that was extremely
helpful in the change management

front. And a lot of institutions have followed
your lead. And I know you get alot of folks that are asking you
about all the things we justtalked about, the change
management, the model, theleadership, the employer
relationships, all those kindsof things. But it's just a great
example of how we can innovatehigher education, you know, and
under your leadership, theinstitution has done just an
incredible, incredible job ofthat. You've also done some
really unique things in theworld of Secondary Education,

(26:49):
high schools and so on. Andthat's a world that's innovating
as well, and maybe in ways thatpeople don't recognize. I had
the opportunity late last yearto be at the grand opening of
facility, an operation calledRocket academy that is meeting
high school students, where theyare in a really, really
innovative way. And I know youand your team have had a huge
relationship and been a hugepart of the leadership of that
organization. One of my goodfriends, Mike Dietrich, actually

(27:11):
chairs the board of directorsthere. I'm happy to mention
that, and Mike's doing anincredible job along with the
leadership team of thatorganization. But talk to us
about rocket Academy and what itis and how it's different.

Yeah, appreciate you bringing this up. So rocket
Academy came about from thevision of the previous
superintendent, Chad for theCedar Road Belgium School
District. Chad a great guy,someone I was proud to call a
friend, where he approached thecollege said, Hey, what would it
look like if we created not analternative school, but a school

(27:43):
where our high school studentswho are interested in the
manufacturing pathways can cometo that school to not learn
basic high school tech ed, butIntegrated Manufacturing
education with college creditsattached to it, so that those
students at rocket Academy couldeither start a pathway to

(28:04):
Lakeshore college upongraduation, or complete the
pathway within the school sothat they could be employed by
our manufacturing partners rightout of high school. And we
worked with cereal Belgiumschool district to help develop
that we were very fortunate thatthe college is able to secure a
grant from the National ScienceFoundation to help offset some

(28:25):
of the upstart costs relatedgetting qualified faculty. But
it has been a home run for thecommunity and county wide. And
when I hear people talk aboutrocket Academy, and the pride
they have in it, and the pridewhen you I see parents who talk
about it is really, reallyspecial. And a couple of
graduations ago, we had ourfirst batch of rocket Academy

(28:46):
students who were crossing theLakeshore college graduation
stage to get their collegedegree before they had finished
high school. It's amazing. It'sreally cool. And they're proud.
Their families are proud. Thecommunity's proud. And so it's
just a really interesting way ofthinking of Let's Move away from
high school dual enrollments,where colleges are teaching

(29:08):
college classes in high school,correct. Let's maybe move away
from this model of just offeringa collection of classes. Or
let's maybe think we'd bespending our time and resources
to target those students who aregoing to take English, 101, or
microeconomics, right, who areon that trajectory already to a

(29:29):
Madison to a Green Bay orOshkosh based on their family
demographics, they're gonna beokay. But what if we started
targeting people who maybearen't higher ed bound or maybe
don't like learning in aclassroom setting, being lecture
if I want to start using theirhands, and how can we create
pathways for those students tofind meaningful employment or

(29:50):
meaningful education postgraduation? Because, you know,
we believe firmly at Lakeshorecollege and raising the
educational attainment in ourcommunities, that's just by
nature of working. In highereducation, of course, and so
let's reach those students who,maybe because of family
circumstances or whatever,aren't thinking about college.
How can we reach them in thehigh school to get them on a

(30:10):
college pathway? Because we knowstudents who take dual
enrollment classes in highschool are one more likely to
enroll in college postgraduation, and they're more
likely to graduate from highereducation on time than their
peers. So it's a real win. Win.
You know, create a lot ofstackable pathways so that folks
can come on and off at multipletimes. But we are very proud of

(30:31):
the work we do with rocketAcademy, and we provide dual
enrollment opportunities forevery high school in our
Colleges District, both publicand private. Well,

and I think that word proud is an important word.
And as I mentioned, I've had anopportunity to spend time at
rocket Academy, to spend timearound the students. And for
folks that haven't had thatexperience, these kids would
absolutely amaze you with whatthey know, with what they're
able to do, with howprofessional they are, all the
job skills that they have, howthey stand up, they greet you at
the door. They shake your hand.
They're confident. You know,I've been to my share of high

(31:03):
school graduations fromtraditional high schools, and
I've been to my share now ofgraduation ceremonies from
institutions like rocketAcademy. And I will tell you
that the students that arewalking across the stage from an
institution like rocket Academyhave every bit the pride is of a
valedictorian of a traditionalhigh school. I mean, they're
proud, they're excited, and it'san and not an or it's, we're not
saying, Do I do highereducation, or do I graduate from

(31:25):
high school and go into theworkforce? Look, you've got all
these on ramps and off ramps.
You can earn your associate'sdegree while you're going to
high school, walking across thesecond stage before you do the
first one. I mean, it's just areally, really, really cool
model. And all the way, by theway, earning industry relevant
certifications as well, which,when we talk about competency
based education, we talk aboutdifferent high school models, we

(31:47):
talk about how we're innovatingin higher ed. I know that's been
a really, really importantaspect for you, and I know the
institution, Lakeshore College,well enough to know that you're
doing a lot of differentcredentials and certifications
and micro certifications. I wantto focus on one, because I've
been intimately involved withit. I involved with it. I've
gotten to know over the courseof the last couple of years, one
of your deans, Rachel krupline,who's just a great leader, a

(32:08):
great innovator, and has donesome great work with the smart
automation certificationAlliance. Full disclosure, as
our audience already knows, I'mon the national board. I'm a
huge advocate for that model,just because I think they get it
right when it comes to how weset up a certification body, but
talk about that. You're a strongadvocate as well. Why are
industry recognizedcertifications like those from
the smart automationcertification Alliance so

(32:29):
important and such an integralpart of what you're doing?

Great way to tee up that question. I don't wanna
come off as too cute here, butthey're important because our
industry partners are telling usthey're important. Awesome. And
so when your local employers aresaying, Hey, this is important
for us that our employees haveor have access to at Technical
College, your antenna goes upand says, Cool. Let's get that

(32:53):
role in there, right? So wereally leaned in, under Rachel's
leadership to the sacacertifications as part of a
grant we received from GovernorEvers of the Wisconsin
Innovation Grant, and we werevery interested in advanced
manufacturing and automation,and how in a rural college like
ours, where we're not on a busline, how can we take that

(33:15):
education in a very compressed,compartmentalized environment,
out to communities, out to otherrural high schools, community
based organizations or employersto provide them the industry
certifications that they need tofind meaningful employment or
move up in meaningful employmentperiod. And so, you know,

(33:36):
they're important because we'retold they're important by our
employers period,

which is awesome, and it's music to my ears to
hear that, because for so long,and as somebody who spent time
in industry, a lot of time inindustry, I wasn't familiar with
micro credentials in those days,and I just think in the last 10
years, in fact, I know we'vestarted to recognize that
employers who you know, they maysay, Well, give me a warm body.
Give me somebody that'll come towork today and every day and
stay off of drugs and take somedirection. That's who I want.

(33:59):
And it's like, okay, you couldhave that. But what if you can
have this whole list ofcompetencies that people would
come to work job ready? Howwould that feel? Oh, that's
awesome. And then they, youknow, again, not to pick on
soccer, but I'm intimatelyfamiliar. You sit down and you
say, well, this person has acertification in basic AC, DC or
electric relay control, orindustry 4.0 or robotics or
whatever. Is that important? Theemployers are saying it's

(34:20):
important, and you're able to inthe same way with CBE that we're
able to focus specificcompetencies on specific roles,
we can create a competencyportfolio of certifications that
match certain roles oncestudents are in industry as
well. None of this happens. Noneof this innovation happens
without funding. I think ifthere's a common theme through
several of your answers, Paul,talking about NSF grant funding

(34:41):
for rocket Academy, talkingabout innovation grant funding
from our governor here inWisconsin, the governor's
office, Governor Tony Evers,which I believe was flow through
money too, from the federalgovernment. But grant funding
that's come up a few times.
You've managed to gain $28million in grant funding since,
since joining the college. Imean, that's just an insane
amount of money. And. Love.
People would love to hear yoursecret recipe here for securing

(35:03):
grant

funding. Well, just when a correction there,
it's now 32 million. Oh,

fair enough.
Awesome. Our research is threedays old, so

thank you for correcting us. So you know, we
have prioritized, as aninstitution, grant funding,
because we want to diversify ourfunding streams at the college
and as a community college, wewant to be bringing in dollars
to our community that are spentin our community to better
students in our communities.
We're able to do that becausewhen we prioritize, it two
phenomenal grants team, so weinvest in a Grants team that

(35:34):
finds grants, write successfulgrants, and a team, my grants
team, I would probably put thatup against any grants team in
higher ed period, both two yearand four year colleges. They're
very good. They care about thecollege, they care about the
mission, and they write greatgrants. But you know the second
is, is we have at LakeshoreCollege, I'm biased. We have a
quality product, sure. So whenwe're writing for grants, we're

(35:58):
starting on third base, becausewe have a quality foundation to
build on, sure, and so that's,you know, we're very proud of
all of our grants, state level,federal level, and it's
reflection of our hard work andour quality product. And I've

got a really good friend who spends a lot of time
thinking about grant funding,who says, you know, somebody,
somebody somebody says, Well, Iwant a million dollars in grant
funding. And they say, well,then you have to have a million
dollar idea. And it's kind ofthe same idea if you've got a
million dollar result, if you'vegot a million dollar idea, if
you've already got a trackrecord of spending grant
funding, efficiently, spendingit conscientiously, and also, to

(36:35):
your point, having thisincredible legacy of a great
college, having producedgraduates year in and year out,
and doing workforce training andreaching out to your high
schools and all the great thingsthat you're doing that makes the
story pretty easy to tell. And

I would add your point as well. Take about if you
want a million dollars. Have amillion dollar idea, that we
have the capacity at LakeshoreCollege, institution wide, to
think about the future, and sowe're not just applying for
grants just to get money becausewe need this right now or this.
We're able to visualize where wewant to be going in two or three

(37:08):
years. We visualize withpartners like the Seagrove
Belgium School District, sure,partners like Sargento. Did you
know? Just think where we wantto go in the future. And that
thinking is really institutionwide, which makes the job of
finding, writing grants. I don'twant to say easier, but it's a
little bit easier. That way.
It's still a very hard job, buta little bit easier. Yeah,

absolutely. Well, and it's all about winning the
grant, right? So what writingthe grant and winning the grant
and having great partners. Andthe other partnership I want to
give a shout out to is yourincredible partnership with the
American Association ofCommunity Colleges, and I know
you've been super active withthat organization, lots of stuff
going on. I think I just saw aLinkedIn post about a, you know,
a CEO search that you've beeninvolved in. Talk about the

(37:50):
AACC, your role there, and whynot just being involved locally,
but also being involved on anational scale, is important

to you? Paul, sure, so the American
Association of CommunityColleges, or AACC, is the
national advocacy unit for thenation's 11 102 year community
and technical colleges. Got it.
I was honored to have beenelected by my peers to that
board a little over a year ago.
And the reason it's importantis, you know, even though we're

(38:20):
a local Community TechnicalCollege. We're part of the
broader sector, and I'm a bigbeliever that if you want to be
involved in the sector, you haveto be involved in the sector.
And so the service on this boardallows us to be involved the
dialog on the national level. Itallows us to bring the unique
perspective of of a technicalcollege in the Midwest to policy

(38:43):
discussions that are happeningand that's important. It gives
our college, it gives our stateand our community a
disproportionate role in thenationwide discussions. And you
know, when you think of theAmerican Association of
Community Colleges, why it'simportant for advocacy a lot of
that's happening in Washington,DC, to secure opportunities for

(39:04):
two year colleges to grow now Ican pinpoint really clearly why
that matters with a provision inthe big, beautiful bill that
allows for workforce Pell. SoPell Grants are entitlement
based grants to help low incomeindividuals pay for college. It
used to only be available if youwere taking a college degree.

(39:27):
Right now with workforce Pell,there's going to be
opportunities for students todraw down their Pell for short
term training opportunities likeCDL, like nursing assistant,
like saca, all of this. And so Ithink we're going to see an
explosion here of short termtraining that is meaningful for
people and communities. Andthat's a direct result of the

(39:49):
work the American Association ofCommunity Colleges is doing to
advocate on behalf of allcolleges.

And that's just a terrific example. And we could
debate, and lots of people coulddebate, the merits of the big,
beautiful bill, and I've heard alot of it already. Yeah, the
truth of the matter is that,regardless of how people feel
about that, there are some greatnuggets in there, especially for
workforce training, communitycolleges, technical colleges and
so on. And I'm glad that youhighlighted that, you know, I
guess I would be interested inin learning a little bit more

(40:13):
about, just in general, whatkind of leadership you think the
community college world needs,and especially, you know, let's,
let's kind of talk about that inthe context a little bit of
funding and what's happening.
And what's happening, what hashappened with funding? I mean, I
live and breathe technicalcommunity colleges and technical
training and funding has beenpretty good for the last five
years for a variety of reasons.
You know, would be curious aboutnot just how we lead on the

(40:35):
national level and what'simportant for community and
technical colleges, but also howwe lead on funding and what
you're expecting the next

five years. So it's important that when we
think about funding forCommunity Technical College
systems, that those of us in thesector recognize the reason
we're, especially in Wisconsin,doing good funding wise right,
is because we are qualityinstitutions. We are committed
to our mission, and we aresupporting our employers, right?

(41:05):
And so it is absolutely criticalas we go to the next five years
that we continue to maintainthat brand standard, right, and
not slip on that. So that's abig thing when you think of
leadership, you know, we've gotgreat leadership here in the
state AACC, you know, we'rehiring a new CEO there to be our
chief advocate in Washington,DC. I think what's important
there is leaders who understandthe role, scope and mission of

(41:29):
two year colleges, who are thewalking, talking logos of two
year colleges, and are always inthe room when those
conversations are being had withpolicy makers, right, and not
defaulting to other associationswith other interests, which
aren't bad interests, butthey're just other interests,
right? Making sure that ourinterests are equally weighed at

(41:50):
that

table a fully educated policy maker,
regardless of what level ofgovernment, regardless of what
types of decisions they'remaking are, is really, really
important. And I know the AACCis playing a really, really
important role in making surethat, you know, not just our
colleges are informed andeducated on the future of
education, but but also that ourpublic policy makers are is
super, super important. And I'mglad you mentioned the great

(42:11):
leadership here in the state ofWisconsin as well. I had a
opportunity to meet withPresident Layla Merryfield
probably a week and a half ago.
You're fantastic. Yeah. Spend agood hour and a half, two hours
with Layla, wonderful, wonderfulleader, doing great things at
the state level. And believes,as I do, that we do need to
shake up the model and continueto innovate in ways that are
good for students, good foremployers, and good for the
state as a whole. And and Ithink, set an example in a lot

(42:33):
of cases for what the rest ofthe country can be doing. Not
that there aren't great thingshappening all over the United
States, but fantastic thingshappening in Wisconsin, and as
much as we were talking aboutshaking up the model of
education, I have a couple morequestions for you, Paul before
we wrap up our time here on TheTechEd podcast. First one is
this, we all had our owneducation pathway. You had
yours, and certainly have spenttremendous amounts of time in

(42:54):
education following your formaleducation yourself. Are the
things that you believe or thinkabout in terms of education that
might surprise people or alittle bit outside of the lines,
if you would.

What I've experienced across multiple
states is people know theirlocal community and technical
college but and many of them aregraduates from it, but they
don't always know the full, Iguess, depth and breadth of what
two year colleges do. If I couldjust give you a quick story here

(43:26):
might be always, I think there'sa great job of demonstrating
this. So Jonathan grew up in ourcommunity, and in high school.
Jonathan dropped out of highschool, smart guy, right? Just
wasn't working for him. Thenwanted to work, make some money.
So he went to work, and what hestarted to notice after a couple
years of dropping out was hispeers at his job were getting

(43:47):
promotions, or they were gettingnew jobs, or they were changing
careers. And what he realized isthe common theme of all those
folks moving up was they had ahigh school degree. Many of them
had a college degree. So hesaid, You know what, I'm gonna
go back to get my high schoolequivalency degree, or my GED
and Lakeshore provides that inour community. And so he started
and stopped, because it's hardyou've been at school for a

(44:09):
while to get back in that swing.
It can be intimidating. Startedand stopped, but then he finally
doubled down. Said, You knowwhat? Now I'm going to get my
degree. And he was taking hisclasses, made some bad life
choices, found himself in jail.
But while he was in jail, hecontinued in our GED program
that we offer in the jail. Yeah,he got his GED, and when he was

(44:31):
released, one of the firstthings he did was come to
Lakeshore college to enroll inone of our programs. Graduated
from the program in a year, nowowns and operates a small
business in Manitowoc County.
Wow. And you think about that,only at a college like
Lakeshore, you know, ourcolleges are uniquely American
inventions. Can you go from ahigh school dropout who is in

(44:51):
jail to a college graduatebusiness owner? Right? That
happens? Lakeshore all the time,not that specific story, but,
and that's just something thatyou know, the more we can tell
the story of our depth andbreadth to continue to surprise
people, so that hopefully oneday when we tell the story,
they're not surprised. I thinkthat's would be a great thing.
You

know, in the end, the most important thing that
any of us do is change the livesof others for the better. And
what a great example of how wecan do that through our
community and technical collegesacross the country, and
specifically Lakeshore, withwith all the flexibility that
you offer, and letting somebodyknow that it's never too late to
make up for some decision youmay have made that you wish you
hadn't, and you can always finda better way. And in the case of

(45:35):
Jonathan, what a perfectexample, Paul. And thank you so
much for sharing that examplewith us. It's just a it's just a
great story about the power ofour community colleges and
technical colleges here in thestate of Wisconsin and across
the country as well. Speaking ofacross the country, you grew up
in various parts of the countryyou mentioned earlier, Colorado
Springs. So I want to take usback in time a little bit to the
15 year old Paul Carlson. You'vegot your whole life ahead of

(45:58):
you. You don't know that you'regoing to be heading off to
Georgia for your doctorate andwhat you did before that, and
then eventually becoming theleader of this great institution
here in the state of Wisconsin.
You're 15. You have your wholelife ahead of you. If you could
go back and give that young manone piece of advice.

What is it? Okay, so wasn't it the most clearest
thinker at 15? Right? I did alot of things a 15 year old does
that maybe we'recounterproductive. But

you're not alone on that. By the way, we can make
a list together. Go ahead, butat

15, I'm starting to think about college, right?
Both my parents graduated fromcollege, so it was never a
question in our household of ifyou would go, but where? And I'm
thinking of just getting out ofthere, you know, going to
college, getting job, gettingout of the household, doing my
own thing. And if I could goback to that 15 year old, I
would say, continue on thattrajectory, going places, doing
things. But man, once you leavehome, go home more often. There

(46:50):
you go. Because you know, whenyou're 15, you know your parents
won't live forever, right, butyou kind of think they will, and
then it catches up with youreally quickly. And so give
myself that advice to go home alot more often than I did,
because that would have beentime well spent.

Absolutely.
That's great advice for anybody.
And we get a lot of answers tothis question. That's the first
time we've gotten that one, andthat is a beautiful, beautiful
answer. And we always, you know,we think about our roots, we
think about where we come from,we think about the impact that
our parents have, and we thinkabout things that we take for
granted. And that's one that'sreally, easy to take for
granted. So for all of our younglisteners, as you move into
whatever happens after you moveout of the house, remember to go

(47:27):
back home and see Mom and Dad.
You won't have them forever, andcherish that time while you do
awesome awesome advice. Atremendous conversation we've
had here with our guest, PaulCarlson, president of Lakeshore
College here in Wisconsin, greatconversations about everything
from competency based educationto how we seek your grant
funding to how we innovate inhigher ed to how we innovate in
our secondary institutions.

(47:48):
Really, really interestingconversation, Paul, and thanks
so much for being with us.
Thanks for having me, and thanksto our audience as well for
joining us for this episode ofThe TechEd podcast, lots of
different resources we talkedabout over the course of this
conversation. We'll link themall up, as we do every week in
the show notes. We have the bestshow notes in the business, so
be sure to check those out. Theywill be at TechEd
podcast.com/carlson that isTechEd podcast.com/and catch the

(48:10):
spelling here. Slash, C, A, R,L, S, E, N. TechEd
podcast.com/carlson, when you'redone there, come find us on
social media. We are onLinkedIn. We are on Tiktok. You
can find us on Instagram. Youcan find us on Facebook,
wherever you spend time,whatever channel is your
favorite for social media, youwill find the TechEd podcast

(48:32):
there. When you stop in, sayhello, we would love to hear
from you. Can't wait to see younext week for another great
episode of The TechEd Podcast.
I'm Matt Kirkner, and thank youfor being with us. You.

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The Rules for Earning College Credit Are Changing, and Competency (Not Time in Seats) Matters Most - Dr. Paul Carlsen, President of Lakeshore College

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Rules for Earning College Credit Are Changing, and Competency (Not Time in Seats) Matters Most - Dr. Paul Carlsen, President of Lakeshore College