Ted Lasso | S2 Ep12 Part4 "Inverting the Pyramid of Success" - The Tedcast - A Deep Dive Podcast About The Bear

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:22):
Welcome to our Ted Lasso talk, the Tedcast.
Welcome all Greyhound fans,welcome all you sinners from the
dog track and all the AFCRichmond fans around the world.
It's the Lasso way around theseparts with Coach, coach and
Boss, without further ado, coachCastleton.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Okay, welcome back, beautiful people.
Thanks for joining us as wediscuss Ted Lasso, season 2.
It's Season 2, right?
Yeah, Season 2.
And this is Episode 12.
And this is Part 4 of ourcontinuing discussion.
This is something sorry.

(01:01):
It's Inverting the Pyramid ofSuccess, which is Episode 12 of
Ted Lasso, the finale of seasontwo.
This is our fourth part.
I am your host, coach Castleton.
With me, as always, is CoachBishop.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Here to represent the pro panda lobby.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
That's something that stuckwith us.
That comment by Boss, that'slasted.
That was a she didn't wait.
Wait, was it you or was it boss?

Speaker 3 (01:29):
oh, the fact that it shouldn't have been changed like
yeah, no, I started it, but wegot, we, we vibed on it oh, that
was you.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
That was you.
That was like I don't like thisline.
Yeah, isn't that funny, god,what it's not like me to give
boss extra credit.
That's uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Idon't know, that's man I'm
getting.
I'm softening up.
I'm, of course, speaking of ourboss, emily Chambers.

Speaker 4 (01:51):
You definitely shouldn't have given me any
credit, because it's finally 70degrees in Chicago and even
though it's way worse for thesound, I do have the windows
open.
I can't not have the windowsopen.
I'm really sorry.
I need to.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
I think anyone living in Chicago should be excused
for any weather adaptations atany point in the year.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
Chicago weather, why it's hilarious though I last
night was sitting on my frontporch, not my front porch, my
couch in my front room frontroom, as you might sometimes
hear it we actually do say thatit was raining a little bit, it
was warm, it wasn't quite dark,the streetlights were on.
I was like, oh so this is thething, as miserable as it can be

(02:37):
for most of winter and earlyspring.
Every once in a while you getthose magical days and you're
like it doesn't matter, I wouldput up with all of that.
For this.
It also september, april,september doesn't matter, the
rest of it that is a benefit ofhaving seasons yeah, yeah, there
is.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
That is that like oh yeah, you, you know when you got
a good day.
It's not, there's no questionabout it, although it's funny
because, uh, I lived in losangeles for a long time.
And it Although it's funnybecause I lived in Los Angeles
for a long time and it's sostrange, now there's humidity in
Los Angeles.
Things are changing.
What is it in Qatar right now?
Or is it Oman?
Where is it?
Where there's a?
Have you seen like they've hadmore rainfall in the last two

(03:17):
days?
Six inches of rainfall, whichis in one day.
If you look at their nationalairport, the planes look like
they're in the lake.
Because there's more rainfall inone day than in their entire
year typically.

(03:37):
So five inches of rainfall fellyesterday, an additional one
today, and so they don't knowthey're like what.
What is what is happening?
I've been watching, oh sorry no, no, no, it's just, things are
changing well, so yeah, yeahit's just kind of amazing there.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
I mean, I'm sure I've gone into some version of this
rant before and I won't go toofar into it, but I, when I moved
to la, one of the things Italked about being awesome about
living in LA is no mosquitoesLike I.
Actually I remember, so youcannot lie to me and tell me oh
yeah, you've mentioned this.
You cannot tell me this, yeah,and so I'm like we have, like,

(04:16):
moved habitats with our bullshit.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes, what do you think?
There are mosquitoes in LA now?
Yeah, when I came to visit Iwas like wait what?
I remember that bit and I'mlike, aren't?
I in LA.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
No, yeah, it's crazy, and so I've been watching.
My viewing patterns are soinsane.
But anyway, I've been watchingthese documentary episodes.
First I did our universe,narrated by Morgan Freeman on
Netflix, and then now I'm doingour planet.
I think our planet too.
Anyway, whatever, I'm justgeeking out over here like

(04:51):
nobody's business, but thereason I bring it up here is how
clear it becomes, like thedominoes of our environment.
And so people like you see thepicture of the polar bear on the
piece of ice.
It's like, oh so sad.
It's like, oh no, oh so sad foryou, motherfucker, because that

(05:11):
ice wasn't supposed to meltlike that.
Now there's more water thanthere's supposed to be.
Now there's more rain, but onlyin certain places.
I mean, I don't want to saythat al gore already fucking
told us to knock it off, but hekind of of did.
And like, when you watch thisit's horrifying, because it's
like it is us, like there's noquestion it is us.

(05:32):
We have broken the earth, weare, we are.
We have broken it and we'regoing to pay for this shit.
I should say we're going tocontinue to pay for this shit.
We're already paying for it.
Anyway, get ready for therefugees.
It's totally crazy.
I was reading.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Some local person said hey, I'm moving here, I'm
about to move to the Boston area, I'm about to move from London.
What's the weather like inBoston?
People responded like, hi, I'ma person from, I'm a to move, uh
, from london.
What's the weather like inboston?
And then people responded like,oh, you know, hi, I'm a person
from, you know, I'm a brit whomoved to boston.
Uh, the boston weather is, um,is like london weather, but just

(06:13):
like a lot better.
And I was like wait, what?
What?
Because, because we have fourgood days a year, right, right,
right you know what I mean itgoes from from frigid to swel
and then, like four amazing days, and it used to be September.
It used to be oh yeah, septemberis the beginning of fall and
that's when it's going to godown.

(06:34):
No, no, no, Now that's also.
It's Miami in September, it'slike late October now the whole
thing is.
It's insane.
All right, Ted Lasso, we'regoing to jump right in.
Thank you for for queuing herereminding us, boss, I appreciate
that.

Speaker 4 (06:50):
Where where we left it.
I just felt like what is morefitting for a show about
optimism and belief than to talkabout the rapidly declining
state of the climate in theworld and how, how wildly
inhospitable it's going to beshortly Believe.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
I'll tell you what I get heated when it comes to
global climate warming.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
Oh Jesus, see, see, this is what happens.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
I can't believe.
I'm laughing at that.
Okay, jesus, what a day.
Um, all right, so where we leftoff was uh akufo and francis uh
entering the owner's box andkeely greets them, and then we
get this like super daunting uhcamera move.
We just don't have moves likethis.
I looked at this, I rewoundthis like four or five times.

(07:42):
It's the out of focus back ofnate's head, like you're in
nate's hair to start, and thenyou rack focus as you come up
over the top.
And what's he looking at here,coach?

Speaker 3 (07:56):
he's looking up at john wooden's pyramid of success
, which right, he's been hangingbehind ted since minute one
that went up in the firstsequence of setting up the
office right, yeah, crazy.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
And then we, we pivot to, we see him from the front
and and walk us through thisscene.
Uh, here coach absolutely so.

Speaker 3 (08:17):
He's staring up.
Um, roy comes in, notices whatthe fuck's that about is the
look over the beard.
Beard is reading inverting thepyramid sort of gives like a
shrug ish motion.
Shakes his head a little like Idon't fucking know.
I love the two of them.
Still don't need to talk likethey're so dialed in that it's

(08:38):
like a whole conversation justhappened behind nate.
He has no idea.
And then Roy moves on and incomes Ted.
Good afternoon afternoonafternoon.
All right, y'all good to go onrunning Nate's false nine today.
Yeah, and Nate, we have herethis.

(08:58):
Well, you'd be fools, not to.
I thought I heard you'd befalse, not to Like he was trying
to be clever, but I could bewrong.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
You thought it was an instant Carmel situation, I
think it might have been orsomething.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
I thought I heard false, though, and I was like
what's he doing there At any?

Speaker 2 (09:21):
rate.
It did sound like that, but theclosed captions say you'd be
fools not to.

Speaker 4 (09:28):
Well, what I noticed was that he said you'd be fools
not to instead of.

Speaker 3 (09:32):
We'd be fools not to.
That's a great call.
That is a great call Flippingthat around very quickly.
I once got busted messingaround that I had been messing
around with this girl I wassupposed to be messing around
with back in the day because wewere talking about going to
wherever we were all going andthe two of us were going to

(09:54):
travel together and I said, yeah, we'll meet y'all there.
And as soon as and the dudelater was like we'll meet you.
And I was like fuck did I saywe?
He's like you, said we bro noyou got busted out so easy.
I totally just gave myself away.
I can still remember that'swhen I was a bartender, I

(10:16):
remember and I was like, oh,we'll meet you guys there.
And then later on the guy waslike we, huh?
I was like shit, yeah, anyway,not the point of the scene, but
it just made me think of it.

Speaker 4 (10:28):
I love it.
I really like it.
I love it.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
I want to hear more about that.
That sounds great, all right.
So yeah, we ought to give it ashot.
I mean, what happened?
Why?
What happened?
What happened?
What happened in the?
What happened between the lasttime we saw Nate and right now?
Like what, what?
What is going on?

Speaker 3 (10:49):
At this point he's I mean, we've already he's for me,
at least he has had thisyearning to be a bigger deal
here.
This, this should be, reallyall be about his brilliance.
And so when he's like, oh,you'd be fools, not to.
It's sort of it's a fake.

(11:13):
I mean he probably doesn'trecognize it, but it's like a
fake confidence, it's a brand ofarrogance.
That's like, oh, I'll save youall again.
We've all worked with thatperson.
Maybe you've been that person,in which case please don't do
that anymore.
Where you like, oh, how wouldthis organization run if I
didn't work here?
It's like, just fine, go hit,go get it by a bus, like who

(11:34):
cares?

Speaker 2 (11:38):
and I'm just fine we're, we're, we're, totally,
I'm, we're tonally off todaybecause I'm making, I'm giving,
I'm giving boss extra credit.
Coach, coach is telling peopleto get hit by a bus.
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
I haven't, I haven't mentioned any sort of murder yet
.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, that's true, no.

Speaker 4 (11:57):
Well, that would be on brand.

Speaker 2 (11:58):
But listen, boss, coach and I, due to the
chemistry of our brains, areunable to track things in
sequential order.
When did we see?
I'm serious when I saysomething happened to Nate in
the offseason Since we've seenhim last.
I don't think enough attentionis paid to this particular turn,

(12:22):
to this particular turn, andGod.
We've gotten some lovelyreviews from people who are just
fascinated with Nate throughoutthe whole show, who disagree
with our take, and let us knowit via the ratings.
But what I'll say is I take alot of umbrage with the

(12:43):
trajectory for Nate and it feelslike a huge you know, because,
because we're out of sync withit, every time we feel like
we're ahead, they give us thisbeat and then we're actually
behind.
Or then every time, oh okay,now I see what's happening, but
then it's three more beatsbefore.
So I just almost feel like hisarc is messed up right now.
I'm like what?
What happened?
What inciting event made himturn into fucking dracula?

Speaker 3 (13:07):
see, I think it's actually, I think it's actually
a continuation, but we didn'tnecessarily know what we were
looking at at first, and so hehad this yearning right for
paternal approval, whatever youknow, however you want to frame
that, and there was that, thefeeling that goes with it of I'm

(13:30):
not good enough.
I'm not good enough, I'm notgood enough, right.
Which is why when he gives hisbig speech in the make America I
mean make America, make Rebeccagreat again episode that
certainly not make America greatagain, but the make Rebecca
Great Again episode we all Iliterally shed tears, which I

(13:50):
shared on this podcast.
It was an amazing moment, butfrom my own journey I know that
it's true that the hole he'strying to fill doesn't get
filled that way, and so he wantsto feel better.
He's trying to fill doesn't getfilled that way.
He wants to feel better, hewants to feel like a big boy, he

(14:11):
wants to feel strong, he wantsto feel approved of whatever it
is.
For a while, the Ted love wasserving that, but it's a
bottomless pit.
It's a bucket's a, it's abucket with a hole in it, it's
all the things.
So you can't fill it, yeah, and?
And so now he's like all right,it must be, because these guys

(14:33):
are screwing me and I'm the realgenius around here and if I
were in charge at richmond, Iwould finally feel different,
which is incorrect, but yeah,you would believe it, which is
incorrect, but you would believeit.

Speaker 4 (14:45):
Right, but that is what he believes.
I just, yes, building on that,I think that there is a type of
person who, when faced with thereality that they are not for a
lot of people, like whateverthis was.

(15:05):
I feel like there are TV showsthat are movies, that are bands,
that are people like.
This is a thing that is not foreveryone.
Um, I talked to you guys aboutthe TV show brain dead, which is
about alien slugs who, uh,infect the minds of politicians
and sometimes they sing musicals.
That show is not for everyone.
I left the shit out of it.
So brain dead.

(15:26):
They sing musicals.
That show is not for everyone.
I left the shit out of it.
So braindead.
The show needs to either knowwho it is, what it is as a show
and like, what it's going forand what it wants to do, and who
its audience is in order to besuccessful, and people, in the
same way, have to accept thatnot everybody is going to love
them.
Nate could have done this thingwhere he was like well, I am a
brilliant football tactician, sothat is what I'm going to lean

(15:46):
into.
I'm going to figure out how todo that, and instead he's so
focused on getting the adorationand the approval and being
popular that he is not leaninginto who he actually is as a
person.
Like not all of us are going tobe ballerinas, sometimes we
play Cheshire Cats and you justneed to learn how to figure that
out.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
I love that and I feel like it leaned into a
couple of different things, butone that's jumped out at me is
the whole idea of the shadow.
Like I've been looking at it,anyway, it's who I am.
I've been watching some stuffabout Carl Jung Leave me alone,

(16:30):
do what you want, anyway, you'rea nerd, anyway.
But but the whole idea of like,embracing our whole self,
embracing our shadow, and Natehas not yet gotten to the point
of an observation I maderecently of somebody I know
personally, which is there'snothing cooler than somebody who

(16:50):
knows that they are not cool.
Yes, yep, right, I mean it's,you know I'm trying to think of,
like, a good sort of likeuniversal example.
I don't know Elvis Costello, Idon't know who, I would say, but
like somebody who you, just,you just know that in their life
they get that their coolnesscomes from.
I'm not from everybody, not foreverybody.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
I mean, um, I'm gonna throw out there weirdo yankovic
because I'm pretty sure ahundred percent every person
alive likes at least one of hissongs.
Oh, yeah, you might notconsider yourself a fan, but he
did one thing one time that youliked oh yeah, no, no, that's a
great, that's a great example.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
And he's not like, oh , here's my opus, or he, oh,
this is my christmas album.
No, no, no, he's weird out.
Baby, if you want a fucking punwrapped in a music video
that'll make you laugh, he isyour dude.
And if that's not what you camefor, don't't go to Weird Al.
I mean, that's a perfect,perfect example of what I mean.

(17:48):
Nate doesn't know who he is yet.
He's saying love me, but hecouldn't tell you who the me is
if you made him.
He doesn't know who he is yet.

Speaker 4 (18:00):
Yes, he is, at this point, the very opposite of
Beard.
Beard knows exactly who he isand he doesn't need anybody to
love him.

Speaker 3 (18:06):
That's 100%.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
So, yes, I think you're all.
I love everything you guys aresaying.
So at some point in the lastcouple days, Nate decided to rat
out Ted.
He decided to pull the triggeron that.
Then he decided to pull thetrigger on that right.

(18:31):
Then he decided to be a like aprick, like a total prick, which
is how he's acting.
You know you'd be crazy not tolike he was.
There was a beat in the huddlewhere everyone threat, said
they're going to find the ratand kill him, and his reaction
to that is not to like exudehumility.
You know his reaction is todouble down into like complete

(18:58):
douchiness and you and you gowow, like this is like it's like
the wrong decision on every law.
And I also think he thinks thatBeard might be onto him.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
Well, yeah, I don't feel like Beard.
I don't feel like Beard did hisbest job of hiding the fact
that he's onto him.
Certainly, and I actuallyhadn't thought about this.
But in a way does Beardessentially saying I know it was

(19:28):
you, fredo force Nate's hand on, so like if Nate was kind of,
I'm angry, I'm in, I'm out.
Does beard saying I know it wasyou, fredo, mean, well, I'm out
now.

Speaker 4 (19:42):
Yeah, right, I better get the fuck out of here,
because, but I'm not long forthis world once he tells or once
they all decide you know, come,come with the bars of soap so I
don't want to uh jump ahead toomuch in this episode, but I
think one of the things we willlearn is that Rupert talking to

(20:06):
Nate at the funeral might havebeen one of the things that
changed for Nate recently andone of the things that would
impact Nate's understanding ofhis future at Richmond.

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yeah, good point, so maybe that was it.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Maybe at that point he was like fuck this, somebody
else is interested in me, Idon't need you ted yeah, that's
rebecca.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Certainly, rebecca certainly noted it.
And and whenever there's afisher like that in an
organization, you can definitelyget in there.
You get in the person's ear andadd to that.
If you add to the like, you'rethe real brains of the operation
.
You're the where's that fuckingguy?
No, I mean any energy like thatthat you receive.
Um, you know he's scrollingthrough.

(20:51):
We know how he scrolls throughum x, formerly known as twitter.
Um, just almost compulsively.
So he's probably soaking up alot of that information and
seeking it frankly, because hewants to feel like the big deal,
right.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
So, all right, so you're right and you know.
Credit to Rupert for havingthat innate ability to find the
crack and drive a wedge.
You know, like just having somepeople just know they know
where to apply pressure.
You can't teach it.
Uh, there's a, there's a littlegirl in my daughter's fourth
grade class who is like a, it'slike a master class, watching

(21:34):
her pit people against eachother and you go, oh my god,
like the, it's so bad that theother mothers warned us when we
went to the school about this.
No shit, yeah, they're like oh,just be mindful.
Be mindful because she's, wow,she likes to pit, she likes to,
she likes to, uh like, hoardhumans and then throw them

(21:56):
against each other in a battledrum.
So, oh my god, my daughterdidn't get caught up in it,
thank god.
But like that's fourth grade, noone's right, that's in the,
that's in her, that's, you know,no one's teaching.
It's not lectures that she'swatching on youtube.
It's like she just knows how to, how to move people around.
Um, yeah, so, yeah, we ought togive it a shot.
Why change it now?

(22:17):
Uh, roy says, and uh, higginsrolls up and did you get kicked
out of your office again?
No, temporary reloc.
Temporary relocation while theychanged the carpet in there, it
was absolutely covered in dogshit.
Why was that boss?
Why was it covered in dog shit?

Speaker 4 (22:30):
Because Higgins gets down.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
That's it.
Okay, nothing to do withbarking in palace, I'm guessing.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
All right, no, they had.
They had new mascot dogs.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Also I and I think this is relevant for this scene
who could be further from natein this moment of arrogance and
narcissism?
And me, um than higgins, who,like, gives up his office to the

(23:03):
to, to dr sharon, who then like, yeah, yeah, we're gonna have
this dog shit over my, my office, I'm not gonna make a fuss
about it.
Nobody even fucking knew till Ichimed in on this conversation.
I've been here working in the.
I've been working in the gymlike he is across right now from
bench press doing whatever itis he's supposed to be doing,

(23:23):
his head of football operationslike he is devoid, yeah of the
me of ego.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, by the way, I I don't want to, I don't want to
backtrack too much, but, um, Ihad a visceral reaction to nate
looking at the pyramid ofsuccess and and here's the
here's where it comes from.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, fuck you, youdon't get to look at that.
Ooh, say more.
It's just this thing where I'mlike you can't use the force.

(23:50):
Like, if you're going to usethe dark side of the force, you
can't pretend you're a lightside, like don't look at you
know what I mean?
You can't use a Jedi holocronif you're a Sith, like go fuck
yourself yourself.
That is for good people and youcan't even read it.
It's like a white man can'tjump, but he's like you can't
hear jimmy, oh no, no I can hit,you know.
You know what I mean.
It's like no, no, you can't.
I know you're looking at thatpyramid, but I promise you

(24:11):
you're not reading what like I.
I promise you you are notgetting what john wood is laying
out.

Speaker 3 (24:16):
Well right, yes, I agree with what you're saying
and I think it's important toremember that these lessons can
be applied in negative ways,like they're not intended to be
applied in negative ways, butlike I used to tell people all

(24:37):
the time with you know, when Iuse stuff that I've created
whatever, listen, I do the samething the bloods and the crypts
I just do it for their good,like that's you know.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
So like I literally say the same thing every day.

Speaker 4 (24:52):
That's really funny yeah, obviously.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Obviously, that's really funny, but you know what
I mean.
So, like, as I watched him, Iwas like, oh no, like it is so
dangerous to have thisunderstanding in the wrong hands
.
I guess was more my reaction.

Speaker 4 (25:11):
So this is going to be shocking to everyone?
Probably not.
I don't think that he waslooking at it, thinking like
number one I'm going to studythis and use this to my
advantage or number two that hewas looking at it.
What I thought he was lookingat was like that doesn't
understand the full picture.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Isn't that quaint?
Not even isn't that quaint but,like this understanding is
incomplete.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
This lesson that you're trying to teach that
isn't going to work in the realworld, or this isn't like't
going to work in the real world,or this isn't like.
There are all of these issueswhere that might be what you are
going for, but you do not havea full enough understanding of
how people actually act in orderfor that to be successful you
know it's really interesting andthe pyramids got a lot of

(26:00):
different elements.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
But in terms of what you're saying and the pyramid as
a representation of thatholistic, you know, character
building version of how we'regoing to get things done is nate
is all head in terms offootball, it's false.
Nine it's park, the bus, it'swhatever.

(26:21):
Like he is not the, the, thecoach at this point, like roy
roy's attraction to coaching wasyou're not in the locker room
with them, you can't.
You can't look them in the eye,right, like he like to nate.
He's like, look them in thefucking eye.
Like you are pawns, move whereI tell you, do what I tell you

(26:44):
when I fucking tell you andthat's it.
And so, yeah, I, I, I get whatyou're saying.
I think he would.
I think he would look at thatand go.
They still don't know what todo that's a great take.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
And, coach, you've talked about how the top of the
pyramid is uh, what is itcompetent?

Speaker 3 (27:03):
it's competitive greatness, but he said later on
love yeah that love would be atthe top of the pyramid which is
fast.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
I'm sure that's what.
That's exactly what nate's, ohyeah yeah uh ted about the?
Uh the carpet full and beingfull of dog shit.
Ted says, oh yeah, I've beenthere, done that that made me.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
There's always lies that crack me up, and that was
one of them.
Where, where I'm like why, ted?
What do you mean by that?
I?

Speaker 2 (27:27):
promise, why just dunk it all over your car.
No, no, no, you have not.
I doubt that.
I doubt that.
Well, anyone else got anythingthey want to talk about before
we head out there?

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, I could use some advice.
So it's Roy, and everybodyturns like, oh, is it happening?
So we go hold on.
And then, roy, are you sayingyou want to become a diamond dog
?
Fuck, no, I'm just saying Iwouldn't mind being in the room

(28:00):
whilst it fucking happens.
And this is quite Ted, becausehe could be like, well, either
you're a diamond dog or you'renot.
But no, no, no, no, yeah, okay,well, how about a one-time
visitor's pass for our junkyarddog here?
Yeah, and everybody votes withBarking and Howls as one would,

(28:21):
as a diamond dog, obviouslyCompleted with the wolf Diamond
Dog, obviously Completed withthe woof Diamond Dogs mount up
and, yeah, I gotcha.
Oh yeah, I gotcha is runningover to Higgins because we're
going to try climbing throughthe window again, and this time
Higgins is like I think I'm justgoing to stay put.
Okay, good idea.

(28:43):
Yeah, like I love them both.
Sort of like going back overand going yeah, that's not going
to go.
Well, Forget it.
Forget it.
You live, you learn, you live,you learn right.
Thank you, Alanis.
That one got me.
Beard doesn't skedaddle verymuch, but he's skedaddled up and
out of you know at his own paceand much like Boss.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
You can't imagine Boss skedaddling, for you know.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah, that's actually true, unless she deems it
skedaddle worthy right.
Yeah, I see you moving withpurpose, but not like oh, I
better rush over there.
Yeah, unless Boss deems itworthy.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Then I can see her skedaddling all the way you know
, timbuktu and back, but onlylike that's for Beard.
That was an appropriate.
He was like oh, let me grabthat Like zip.
He was up and up Even thoughNate was closer to the door.
All right.

Speaker 4 (29:38):
Yeah, no, that actually makes sense.
I don very, very quicklybecause it's silly to me to not
do that.
You should be wherever you'rewanting to go.
You should be getting therefaster, as fast as possible.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, but whatever right, but you're the one
deeming that speed appropriate.
It would be the same in reverse.
If someone said slow down,you'd be like why would I do
that?
It's not even the rapidity ofit as much as who makes the
decision.
So Beard, who is more thanhappy to leisurely read his book

(30:14):
with his feet up on the desk,hops up and then yes, coach, you
live what you learn.
You get a little Atlantis jokethere and keep going.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
All right, roy Bark away and he leans forward, puts
his chin on his hand.
I mean he's ready, let's getsome boy talk going.
All right, remember, I told youI had to do that photo shoot
thing with Keely.
Yeah, we got it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
I know I said I fucking hatedoing those things and I do

(30:43):
fucking hate doing those things.
I do fucking hate doing thosethings.
But in the end they didn't usea single picture with me in it
and it hurt my feeling, one ofthe funniest moments for me.
I I I don't know why I say hurtmy feeling, but I guess it's
just just the lack offamiliarity with this kind of

(31:06):
talk that he would say itincorrectly.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
It has one feeling.
Is it like when?

Speaker 4 (31:13):
Sprite labeled its cans as with antioxidant Just
the one Like antioxidants werebig, so they were like we got it
.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
We got it.
That's funny.
So, yeah, they're like we gotit, we got, we got it.
That's funny, so yeah.
So, um, this in terms of hisprogress, I think it's such a
big moment for roy and, yes,it's funny, but I think it's
important for us to like thisvulnerability.
This is the guy who we met,like this vulnerability.

(31:54):
This is the guy who we metfirst of all, jesus Mary and
fuckface Joseph, and then whocame into the locker room and
glared at Ted with the Roy Shireeyes.
So for him to now be standinghere amidst a Diamond Dogs
meeting sharing that his feelinggot hurt is just such a long
way from where he started.
So I just want to highlightthat I don't know why they chose
the single feeling.
It is funny, it's just such along way from where he started.
I just wanted to highlight that.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
I don't know why they chose the single feeling.
It is funny, it's a great line,I think about it all the time.
But it's like in his journey,having too many plural feelings
might feel like too much of abridge too far.
So he's like, okay, I have afeeling and this hurt it, and

(32:28):
that's it.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
So, as everyone's oh, yeah, okay, yeah, I get it.
Then we get Higgins In yearfive.
I was not allowed in the classphoto because I developed a rare
smile allergy and Ted rollswith it.
Oof.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
Ted rolls with it and then looks at Beard and Beard
goes not the same situation andshakes his head.
Ted also says to Beard like Idon't.
And Boss, what does Beard sayhere?

Speaker 4 (33:01):
Sorry, I'm not.
What am I looking for?

Speaker 2 (33:03):
No, no, no, he says not the same situation, it just
feels like a you line.

Speaker 4 (33:07):
Oh, not the same situation I was looking out for
the.
I don't know why I wasexpecting a swear word, but I
immediately went to wherever theasterisks were.
That's really funny and I'mlike, no, I'm seeing nothing.

Speaker 2 (33:26):
If you want me to say a line, just, it's so funny
that Higgins is like, well,here's my whatever.
And then Ted himself he hearsit, looks at Beard, shakes him
off like the third base coach,and then Beard goes not the same
situation, like he's going toredirect us back on point,
because that's the first.
It's.

(33:46):
So we talk about like reroutingthe or derailing the
conversation and Roy likefinally has opened up, and then
Higgins says something that hasnothing, absolutely nothing to
do about with the I don't wantto say re-railing, that sounds

(34:13):
dirty somehow but um, thereneeds to be.

Speaker 4 (34:14):
If you've ever hung out with people where the point
is to get stoned and talk a lot,you need to designate one
person as the air trafficcontroller, and they're the ones
that are like okay, so we'regonna get back to this story
three tangents ago.
We need to circle back to thisthing that we never finished

(34:36):
shocking about Wow, mm-hmm, see,there's order there, I like
that I was assigned that taskwhen I was hanging out with a
couple of grad school friends.
Once but one time they took toolong and before I could get back
to telling them whatever it was, I had shoved an entire piece
of pizza into my mouth.
Now it's Chicago square cuts,so it's not.

(34:59):
It's not a big slice, but I had.
So, whatever it was, I just hadto like point and keep pointing
until I'd eaten enough and thenI could tell them what was
going on.

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Got it, got it.
Now it seems like it seems likea good job for someone who does
not have ADHD.
Not, not the, not the samesituation.
And Roy continues Keep, keepgoing, coach.

Speaker 3 (35:20):
The thing is she.
She looks so fucking great onher own without me, so natural I
it would have been actually.
It would have actually beenfucking weird if I was in the
pictures and then, at Rebecca'sdad's funeral, jamie fucking
Tartt tells her he's fucking inlove with her.

(35:41):
So that gets big reactions Whoa, doc and um, that's what.
And he's still alive from aard,which is a reasonable response.
Because what?
Yeah, instead of beating him todeath, I fucking forgave him.
He can't forgive himself forforgiving him, and I'm still

(36:06):
fucking furious about it.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
So, wow, I thought that was kind of a.
I know Roy, it's good that he'ssharing, but I was like, oh, I
Like it's one thing to share Iwasn't in the picture and kind
of hurt my feeling it's anotherthing to be like, hey, this guy
that we all work with is a dick.
I was like, oh, wow, like it'ssuch a weird.

(36:30):
I think he's like did he getcarried away with the sharing or
is?

Speaker 3 (36:33):
it?

Speaker 2 (36:33):
oh, I don't think so no, no with the way these guys
share, I know, but they theyhave a vested interest.
So the first one, the responseis ah, fuck, that sucks, sorry
man.
The second one is like it couldaffect the other dude's job
because these are his likemanagers well, it's already
affecting the other dudes.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Everyone's affected.
Like they take don't shit whereyou eat to places we can't even
fathom.
So jamie doing it affectedeveryone, potentially roy now
knowing about it like he couldnot tell them and everybody
could wonder what the fuck Roy'sproblem is too.
Like I think I don't think hissharing it in this setting is

(37:18):
where that went off the tracks.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
I guess it's not off the tracks, but I don't see them
as the same exact sharing typeof thing.
One of them is like sorry man,that fucking yeah, one is all
him.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, I guess that's true.
One is all his to share hisyeah, right.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
and then I'm like okay, that's really, that's good
.
The second one, when he waslike, oh god, I was like jesus
dude, like whoa pump the brakes,like he's like, and that
fucking prick up interesting.
Oh my god, like that it hit outthere Interesting.
Oh my God, like that hit mehard that that was the next
thing Interesting.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, I didn't have that reaction, but I get you.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
Ted goes.
Hey, thanks for barking at uslike right away and I thought,
huh, man, you should have lethim Like if that was number two,
I wonder what the fuck numberthree was gonna be.
You know, I'm like Jesus Christ, he was on a roll and for the
purposes of not making this gotoo long, you know, like not
having a you know endlessepisode of the Diamond Dogs, Ted

(38:15):
just, you know, sort of cuts itoff right there, but I don't
know.
Anyway, I'm curious.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
I'm curious, bosses take, because I mean I'm hearing
you now and I'm like OK, I meanI don't.
But that was not my reaction atall.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
You didn't notice it in the moment.

Speaker 4 (38:33):
Right, yeah, that's okay, yeah, that's all right.
Yeah, there was a bit for methat I mean you said that that
wasn't necessarily Roy's secretto tell or whatever, but Roy
played a role in it.
Like there's a part of thatthat what Roy needed to tell

(38:54):
people was my girlfriend'sex-boyfriend hit on her, so like
that is a thing that happenedto him a little bit.
I feel like, jamie, don't hiton your coworkers, girlfriends,
if you don't want them tellingyour co-workers the shit you do.
Like there's a part of it thatI I'm just like well, you did
what you did.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
You guys are so funny .
I love it.

Speaker 4 (39:16):
You're both shot like hey you, you, you did it, jamie
don't start, none won't be none, don't start.
Yeah, man, like I know I know Idon't know what to tell you,
dude Like you did that.
Um, the bigger issue for me isthat part of what it sounded
like Roy was upset about wasthat Keely didn't need him, and

(39:40):
I think that this is somethingthat men struggle with a lot
that they need not need, butthat the idea of their partners
being wholly successful outsideof them to the point that I
think who was it I want to saythat it was Ethan Hawke was
talking about how Uma Thurmanlike was super successful and

(40:03):
kill bill and her career wasgoing well Like I don't know if
she was nominated for awards,but people love the shit out of
her and he, well, like I don'tknow if she was nominated for
awards, but people love the shitout of her and he was like in
the meantime, my career wasstalling.
That's obviously going to havean impact on our relationship
and I was like why wait, wait,wait, hold up?
Why?

Speaker 2 (40:20):
no, I'm with you.
That doesn't compute for me,but but I'm sure maybe if you're
both, I guess, if you're in thesame field, maybe that the
obvious sort of you know,difference between your career
trajectories might be, you know,cause consternation or
something.
But I mean, yeah, we talk a loton this podcast about how much

(40:44):
we love when people truly areexcited for someone else
succeeding.
We just talked about it lastepisode about how happy Roy was
we were saving that champagne.
Should we open it?
It's like no, he was genuinelyso excited for her that she's
going to be a CEO, she's goingto have her own company.
You can feel it.
We love that.

(41:05):
If you apply it to the exampleabout Ethan Hawke, you would say
, yeah, no, he should besatisfied with Not just
satisfied, he should be happy,excited, yeah Right.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
And this is going to be something that I will touch
on a lot later but I think oneof the ways in which we don't
teach emotional intelligence isthat you can have a feeling
about something and that doesn'trequire anybody else to do
anything about it.
It would be nice if people wereable to listen to your feelings
.
But if you're pissed off aboutsomething and I didn't actually

(41:40):
do anything, you're just pissedoff because I don't want to date
you.
That hasn't really happened.
But like if you are only pissedoff because somebody doesn't
want to be your friend, likethey didn't really do anything
wrong, they, they are allowed tochoose who they want to be in
relationships with and it mighthurt your feelings and that
sucks and you have my sympathyon that part.

(42:01):
But you can't be pissed offbecause the girl at the gym
didn't want to go on a date withyou.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
Like the girl at the gym, didn't want to go on a date
with you.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
I mean, I can, you can, but what I'm going to say
is you being pissed off aboutthat thing doesn't require
action from anybody else.

Speaker 3 (42:13):
You're hitting on a lot of buttons for me here.
I'm trying not to have thisepisode go five hours, but you
got an incel rant coming yourway and you got a don't speak
ill of the dead rant coming yourway.
You're touching on some stuffhere.
No well, yeah, I'll be quick onthe incel one being the more
recent.
So I joke about it sometimes.

(42:38):
But I really don't get theincel thing Like.
I do not fundamentally get howthis became a serious
conversation, how this became athing that we're really
addressing in the world.
If no one will fuck you, you'vegot to go figure out how to be
fuckable, like people who arethe most invested in this, like,

(43:02):
oh, only the strong cellssurvive.
Fucking.
Pop a mint, hit the gym copsome gear, get your fucking life
together and someone will fuckyou.
The bar is outrageously low outhere for fucking.
Let's just be honest, right?
So if you're not clearing thatbar, that's on you, bro, that's

(43:24):
on you.
Why you going to shoot up thewhole fucking town because
nobody will fuck you?
Do you think that's gonna bethe magic bullet?
Now?
Literally now somebody gonna belike whoa, I wasn't in home
before, but now that he shot myauntie in the leg, I'm pretty
sure I'm gonna fuck.
No, you're gonna, I don't.
The whole incel thing isfucking crazy to me.

(43:47):
It is pure insanity that we'rehaving a serious conversation,
that there are men who areaggrieved and feel that the rest
of us should be providing somesort of fucking remedy for them,
for the fact that no one wantsto recreate or procreate with

(44:08):
them.
I don't get it.

Speaker 4 (44:09):
Yeah, I mean, I think that it has.
I agree with everything thatyou just said and, just to be
clear, I think that the insultmovement has focused on sex.
What this actually is is agroup of mediocre white men who
two or three generations ago,would have had a successful
career and a family maybe not asuper happy one, but in the

(44:32):
fifties, when women needed menin order to survive, somebody
would have picked it.

Speaker 3 (44:37):
That's interesting.

Speaker 4 (44:38):
So what they are actually the cause of this is a
loss of status, because theyused to be good enough and now
they aren't.
The measurement has changed andthey are pissed off that their
C-level work isn't getting Agrades.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
That's really insightful and I saw an article
I'll see if I can track it down,I'll even share it in the
community that was talking aboutin this generation, in terms of
heterosexual relationships,that men and women are drifting
apart, relationships that menand women are drifting apart and
that in part that's because ofwomen basically progressing

(45:15):
sociopolitically, blah, blah,blah, and men not.
So it's very, it's, it's veryin line with what you just I
mean, it's, it's, it's prettymuch the premise you just
presented that yeah, they'rejust sort of like here I am
above ground in macaques.
What's the problem?

Speaker 2 (45:31):
I don't know, yeah, I would.
I would say that, um, I thinkwe use incel as a uh catch-all
for a lot of different things.
So there's like different types.
And if you're saying, uh, thesomeone who's going to shoot up
anything right away, likegoodbye, good, you know, you, I
have no sympathy, I cannot geton your wavelength, I don't

(45:54):
whatever.
If you're gonna resort toviolence, if you're gonna resort
to injury, I don't have any.
Uh, there is nothing for I gotnothing there for gotcha um, but
I will say that, um, boss, is100.
Everything you guys have saidis a hundred percent Right.
I just think we need to stepback and look and take a, take a
look at why and I have sympathyfor these men yes, by and large

(46:20):
, a lot of mediocre white men,yeah, right, yes, yes, um, that
will eventually become a lot ofmediocre black men.
It'll eventually become a lotof mediocre Hispanic men.
It's not limited to white men.
It's just that we're the first,we're at the highest stage and

(46:41):
we're going to get knocked out.
It will affect all men.
Until men begin to improve is atumbler um.
This is why we talk about howthere are uh, amazing female
role models now all overtelevision, uh, and film, and
there are not that many, um,amazing male role models that
don't resort to violence, thatdon't have violence as a
component of of their, theirsystem, their ethos.

(47:06):
So it's easy to just you know,sort of just you know, you know
disregard these guys or say like, oh, fucking, it's not as easy
as pop a mint for some of theseguys.
Some of them have mentalillness, some of them have you
know, it's like, again, I don'tknow, I just feel badly for

(47:27):
anyone who's alone, anyone who'salone and doesn't understand it
, and anyone doesn't have theright parenting or the right
peer group or the right.
You know, when you're alone, itis, it is, it is.
It is so debilitating and andthen you start to constrict and
you start to play the blame andshame game, you know like oh,
you play the blame and shamegame.
You know like oh you know who'sat fault for your thing.

(47:49):
And, yes, if you have theadvocacy, if you have the agency
to jump into a gym and say youknow what, Like, maybe I'm not,
maybe going to gym isn't goingto get me laid or whatever, but
it might make me feel a littlebit better.
I've been reading about, youknow, it's all of these little
things, but it's not in and ofitself.
The reason we know about thisnow is because it's a pretty big

(48:10):
thing.
It's.
The numbers are notable andonce upon a time you're right
they could, you know, sort ofhover around the edges of
society or whatever, and womenneeded them.
Now women have choices and arewisely using them, and so you

(48:32):
have this segment of thepopulation that feels uh, you
know where we're fucked up whenwe let them get credit cards.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
I said it then, I'll say it now.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
God damn it listen, that was only 1974.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's 50 years baby it's 50 years now
that's why it's on my mind,because I've been seeing stuff.
I mean it yeah, so, yeah, no,she doesn't need you because she
shouldn't have needed you.
Then, like, what part of thelike and this goes for a lot of
you know, in my day kind of talkis like a lot of things people
point back to.
I'm like, yeah, because theworld was fucked up, like they

(49:07):
say it as if like, uh, the goodold days when a woman needed.
I'm like you mean, when womenput up with abuses none of us
would even want to know about,so that they could, you know,
have a roof over their fuckinghead, then that's what we want
to.
I think there's a lot of um,there's a lot of romanticizing a

(49:29):
time when the it wasn't thatthere wasn't pain, it's just
that certain people weren'thaving to experience or deal
with the pain.
And now they're like, oh wait,there's a problem here.
No, there's always been afucking problem, bro.
There's always been a problemwhen that woman wanted to be
able to I don't know buy theskirt or pants or jacket she

(49:49):
wanted to buy and needed to goask her husband couldn't open a
fucking bank account.
Like that was a problem.
You just weren't inconveniencedby it.
In fact, you were empowered byit, so you didn't see it as a
problem.
It was always a problem ahundred percent, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Um, yeah, here's something that I noticed uh, not
not long ago, uh, when I, whenI became a father uh, coach, you
and I, we each have, we eachhave uh children.
Uh, boss, you have nieces andnephews.
I remember thinking that Iwould do the.
The bulk of my hard parentingwas to protect my daughters from

(50:31):
the patriarchy and the forcesout there that were out to get
them and stop them from beingwho they were meant to be.
And as I parented, as I becamemore of a veteran parent, I
realized, oh, no, no, it's equal, if not more difficult, to

(50:53):
raise good boys in this world,because the patriarchy
automatically conditions them tobe part of the patriarchy and
make all the wrong choices.
So it's not enough to just say,oh, I've got to protect my
girls.
It's like, no, no, no, wait asecond, you've got to raise good
boys.
Not enough people raise goodboys.
They still, they still don't.
I look at the kids that my, mychildren go to school and then

(51:15):
I'm like, no, even ourgeneration who should know
better?
Right, they just for, um, youknow gen z and alpha.
It's like millennials.
I, I do not think, missed it.
I think millennial parents areare on it about raising boys way

(51:35):
, way more than gen x.
I it kills me to say that, but Ido think they they have a, have
an idea, but that's it's a huge, huge part of the problem and
that's a structural shift.
And the incels we're talkingabout are older than that.
They are right now the peoplethat are not able to find mates
and that sort of thing, and ourcompanionship or friends or peer
groups or whatever.
They don't have the skill set.
So, yes, it's a huge catch allterm and I don't want to say

(52:00):
that like I align with theirvalues or anything like that,
but I I think anytime someone'salone, my heart bleeds a little
bit and I wish there was abetter system for them to be,
you know, sort of welcomed intoa community that can accept them
and if they're willing tochange and if they're willing to
sort of evaluate their, youknow where they are.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
I want to toss out, and I'm serious actually, that
you have exemplified curious,not judgmental thanks coach.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah, right, I mean it only because it's come, I get
.
It has a human component to me,because every time we think,
okay, it's so easy and it's I, I, I'm so, I am so guilty of this
.
Uh, whenever we think about agroup of anything, it doesn't
matter Republicans, let's sayright, my mind automatically
goes to like Marjorie TaylorGreene or something you know.
I think of the worst possibleand I go no, no, no, don't think

(52:55):
like that, think of the bestpossible Republican.
You know like, there's thisjudge that took us on a when we
went out to Montana.
There was this Republican judgethat took us out on a we went
to city slickers thing.
This guy was the, the best humanbeing.
He was a wonderful man and theyhad never voted blue in his
life.
Unthinkable it from where hecame from in his life.
And he was in his late 70s whenI knew him.

(53:17):
He's he's gone now, uh, passedaway.
But um, all he.
I remember him telling how hardhe tried to protect.
He would see these criminalscome in and you'd have to send
you know like mandatorysentences, and then he would see
these criminals come in andyou'd have to send you know like
mandatory sentences and then hewould sentence them and he'd go
back in his chambers and crybecause he could not save, he
had to, and and you know what Imean.
It's like this was not a badman.
Yes, he was a differentpolitical parties in a.

(53:40):
You know what I'm saying.
Anytime you think about any typeof community that you might not
align with right, you have tosay, oh, are we going to think
about it, about the worst?
It's so easy to go to the worstsegment of that, the worst 1%.
But we and yeah, we don't wehave little in common with those
people in that worst 1%.
But then you think of everybodyelse and you're like there's,

(54:00):
there is middle ground there,there are places where we can
come together again.
It's just difficult and we'reconditioned to be oppositional
in the modern era just that itdoesn't align with what I

(54:32):
believe individually.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
but I think it has become so reductive and so not
for the original intention orpoint, that now it has become
sort of a if you can't sayanything, nice, don't say
anything at all, and I'm like,well, that's terrible advice
because a lot of the times youneed to say the not nice shit in
order to get problems fixed.
I think when you say be curious,not judgmental, and it is not

(54:57):
applied to a very specific, whenyou are introduced to a new
concept, idea, person etc.
Then it becomes a let's nevercall out anything bad, ever.
You cannot perpetually becurious.
You have to at some point drawa conclusion based on the facts

(55:17):
in front of you, and I'm notsaying that you need to only
look at two or three facts.
You can consider all of theinformation.
That's relative, but at acertain point you can't just say
well, there's no way of knowing, we'll never know.
I mean, is the jury still outon Hitler or are we able to
judge and say that guy was bad?

Speaker 3 (55:35):
I think we can all agree he was an okay artist.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
Well, the dog pictures were not terrible.
It's always Sonny is telling methe truth.

Speaker 3 (55:44):
No, no, but yeah, I hear you, I definitely Again
you're picking the worst 1% asyour example.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
I understand where you're coming from, but I don't
think the nature of the.
I think you're saying that themeaning of that term has changed
and you don't like the way it'schanged.
Yeah, in and of itself, it'snot a bad philosophy.
It's just that at some pointsomeone has to make this is,
this is again.
Uh, we'll get to it next, nextseason on, uh, on ted lasso, but

(56:14):
uh, you will hear you will hearme talk about decisiveness
quite a bit um.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
I thought of that too , yeah I, I, I think, yes, I'm,
I'm with you.
I'm with you, boss, in that,like in the deiI work I've done
people will you know, oh, youhave to be accepting.
And so then, like it's almost,like it almost feels like people

(56:40):
are being taught to just livein this sort of like middle gray
nothing's good, nothing's bad,there is no right, there is no
wrong, there is right, which isnot the same as saying, um, I
have this view of x moral issuething we should do at work.

(57:00):
Whatever you have a differentview, I disagree with that view
and I can see that you're aseparate human being with a
separate lens, with a separateright, all those things.
And I think, at its core, forme at least, I should say this I

(57:22):
didn't know Walt Whitman, so interms of how I heard it and
experience it, it's more aboutkeeping in mind that there's
more to it than that point ofdisagreement.
So, coaches, you know so, whencoach says that about incels and
mine was, you know thedefinition of reductive I get

(57:43):
where you're like.
Well, you know there are peoplewho might be using that phrase,
who really might be lookingaround the world and going.
Well, I've been told to be thisone way, but now it's another
way and I'm just and also I'mlonely and I don't have the
vocabulary to even express that,never mind Do something about
it.
And thinking about how to, noteven thinking about how to do

(58:04):
that, just leaving room for thefact that that might exist,
which generally, once people geton my nerves to a certain
degree, I'm like no, no, I getit and I and I have, I have to
own that.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
Yeah, no, no, it makes.
And also, you know the worldtoo.
You know, on behalf of whitepeople, you do dei stuff and
you're like, oh, what a hassle,right?
You don't think like, yeah,well, but you have, you have
reduced me.
You know, you are, you have,it's not.
It's like, it's like gettingpulled over.

(58:37):
Oh, hope I don't get a fuckingticket from this asshole.
It's not like we're gonna die,so it's, it's the.
The stakes are very different.
Um, in cells I'm 100 with you,coach, and I only when you step
back and you see like I don'tagain.
Like I said, if it's isviolence or the stakes are very
different In cells, I'm 100%with you, coach, and only when
you step back and you see, likeI don't again.
Like I said, if it's violenceor injurious, like goodbye, I
don't.
You know what I mean, I have notime for it.
And boss is 100% right that, inthe way that the concept has

(59:02):
migrated, I disagree completely.
I think it's why I love thisshow.

Speaker 4 (59:12):
Be curious and not just one of the many reasons.
Um, at least be curious out ofthe gate.
And and boss did say that Iagree with that part.
I agree with it only is when itcontinues for your entire
interaction with a person, whenyou say, oh well, we don't know.
Uh, you know.
When you say that you havesympathy for anybody that's
lonely okay, so I have sympathyfor anybody that's lonely Okay,
so I have sympathy for someonewho is lonely.
That doesn't change the factfor me that in order to not be
lonely, that person needs toadapt to who they are trying to

(59:37):
find in the world and whetherthat means not just going to the
gym.
Like.
I will again say that one of myfavorite tweets of all time was
some guy that said incels onTwitter are always saying that
you need to be a Chad or a 10 inorder to get a woman.
In the meantime, the hot womenI know all say I would let Matt
Berry hit raw.
Like people are on Twittertalking about how Jack Black

(01:00:00):
could get it all day long.
Like, actually, what you needto do is work on your
personality and being a goodperson and being a caring
partner and all of these things.
And I am not saying that Idon't have sympathy for people
who are lonely.
I am saying that my sympathyfor them.
Being lonely doesn'tfundamentally change the fact
that those are the things youneed to do in order to get a

(01:00:21):
partner.
My sympathy, you have it.
That doesn't change.
It doesn't mean that thesituation is different.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
Yeah, I think that's.
I think well, a couple ofthings.
But yes to what you just said,boss, and I think what you do
with it, from what you do withthe loneliness or or spurred by
the loneliness, is what the restof us are discussing.
So if your loneliness equals,for example I'm not saying

(01:00:52):
getting online and being on someforum saying I just really
don't get what's happening thesedays, I thought that being this
kind of guy would work for me.
It's not working.
What's going on?
Let's discuss.
Or I'm really sad about it.
Everybody take care on.
Let's discuss, or, you know,I'm really sad about it.
Everybody take care.
Okay, if that loneliness is thespark that leads you to making

(01:01:14):
sure you let women online whodon't pay attention to you know
that they're really ugly anyway,they're mid, they're very mid.
Right, they're mid or whateveryou know you're going to do then
.
Okay, now we're.
We're now addressing yourbehavior that has come from the
loneliness.
I'm not judging you.
I'm not judging loneliness.

(01:01:36):
I understand.
I felt lonely.
What I am judging, though, isyour behavior, and I'm saying
that's.
That's an unacceptable way foryou to proceed, because you feel
lonely, and I would toss in,even in the scene where we get
sort of the crystallization youknow, playing darts with Rupert,

(01:01:57):
ted has come to someconclusions about.
Rupert started at the gala yes,it started the gala, and he said
you know, you know, roops is ahit minute.
If you can call him, tell himto come over.
He was basically saying I knowwhat you fucking did.
We both know what you did.
I'm not going to get into ithere with you, but just so you

(01:02:18):
know, I know it was very closeto what beer did to nate, now
that I think about it.
And after the gala, he tellsRebecca.
He tells boss, hey, you thinknobody else sees this guy.
He doesn't say it in thesewords, but you think nobody else
sees this guy's full of shit Ido.
Now he could have gone overthere and said hey, let's be

(01:02:41):
pals, whoopie, doops and playand I'm left--handed, just in
case you were wondering right,but he doesn't.
He suckers him in, he totallysuckers him in and takes him.
He takes him like this is likeout of, like a pool sharp type
movie, this is from the sting.
And then, and he does all ofthat because he has concluded

(01:03:04):
you are a fucking problem, youare torturing my friend and you
gotta go.
Yes, and I just got you toagree to be banned from the dog
track.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
Yeah, because maybe Rupert was super heartbroken
that Rebecca had left him, buthe was mistreating Rebecca, so
Ted needed to make sure thatthat stopped.
The behavior stopped Right.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Right, yeah, and I think I think there's room.
I do think there's room forboth.
But I think we do have to haveplaces where we draw, where we
say what we'll accept, whatwe'll be a party to, what we
write, all those things.
And I think it's like a kid youcould have a kid in's acting

(01:03:49):
out and hitting people.
I remember actually, there wasone young lady.
She had a ton of real issues,like I'm not.
I mean, she was definitelygoing through some things and
what I would have guessedunprofessionally you know,
non-professional I guess wassome like mania kind of a deal.
But she was like literallyhitting motherfuckers in school.

(01:04:10):
Like this is like this is justnot shit that goes on in this
school.
Like Polypare is just not aplace where people are, you know
, oh, so-and-so, just hauled offand just fucking belted
somebody.
It's just not a thing.
And one day this rather largefootball player who she just hit
in my classroom turned to meafter it was all over because I

(01:04:34):
jumped on it and got her out ofthe room and blah, blah, blah,
and he turned to me and said oneof these days I'm going to hit
her back and I was like OK, Iunderstand, please, please, try
not to actually do that.
Um, but I can't ask him.
I don't feel in any fairness.

(01:04:57):
I can't ask him to go home andcontemplate how hard it must be
to be out of control like sureyou can that but at the same
time I don't want you to hit me.
Whatever the fuck's going on inyour life, I don't want you to
hit me, and I think that's aperfectly reasonable line to

(01:05:19):
draw without sort of beingdismissed as, oh, you're not
being curious and that's not atall what you did, coach.
But I'm just saying in terms ofwhat you laid out, boss, I see
what you're saying and I'm withyou on that.
There's shit that I just findunacceptable.
I've thought about it, I'velooked into it, I've searched my
soul and this is where I landed, and I don't have to keep

(01:05:42):
flip-flopping all around theplace after I've done all that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:49):
Yeah, shockingly, we agree on this, I will say.
The only thing to add to thatis you say like this isn't
something that we're going toflip-flop on.
Definitely, absolutely not.
What I would also say is thereis nothing within my you know,
sort of framework that says ifthe girl gets help or medication

(01:06:09):
or something else happens andshe comes to school and she's
not hitting people, we can nowsay, oh, she's no longer a
danger, she has stopped thebehavior.
The new information says I canfeel differently about her and I
don't have to be afraid she'sgoing to hit people because she
stopped hitting people.
It isn't even condemningsomebody for the rest of the
time that you know them.
It's saying as of right now,you're hitting me and I can't

(01:06:32):
let you do that.
And when you stop hitting me,we could do this again, but not
until then.

Speaker 3 (01:06:36):
You know there's a line to be drawn, or, I don't
know, a distinction to be madebetween who you are and what
you've done, and this comes upin terms of the conversation of
guilt and shame it comes up in alot of different places and
something I've been looking atfrom a couple of different
angles, but I think it issometimes with the, because even

(01:06:58):
the story that Ted tells is,those guys dismissed him out of
hand.
They didn't say, oh, I bet hecan't play football or I bet he
can't ride a bike, it wasn't athing, it was just like he as a
person is disposable, we pay noattention to him.
He is irrelevant as a humanbeing, he has no value, and I

(01:07:21):
think that's the kind ofjudgment, I think that's more
the judgment that I, that thatI'm invested in avoiding if I
can.
Um, and it's hard, like peopleyou know you mentioned marjorie
taylor green earlier like it ishard for me to hold on to her
humanity, like I'm being seriousactually right now, because

(01:07:43):
right now, like, right, ifyou're like you get, you know
you get one wish Orlando, whatare we going to do with her?
She's getting fucking launchedinto the sun, like that's the
end of that.
So like, but you know what Imean.
So I think, yeah, it's not easyto separate that, but I think
we can judge actions withoutcondemning people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
It does feel rough to be not taken seriously, which
leads us to our next line, whichis, you know, ted finds out
that Nate has something to sharehere.
And what does he say here,coach?

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
uh, there's something .
Uh, I have to confess as well.
So, uh, uh, ted, give him thegreen light, go ahead, nate dog
roy.
And they think he's gonna sayyeah, yeah he's gonna confess to
the, you know, but outing ted.
But here we go, roy.
When keely and I went shoppingthe other day, I kissed her and

(01:08:50):
roy, so of course beard is likesweet jesus, this guy, this
fucking guy, like that, look onhis face.
I have been in that meetingwhere you're like this fucking
guy is.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
He thought it was terrible I mean, you didn even
know about this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
He's just laying landmines everywhere.
He's the worst.

Speaker 3 (01:09:11):
He is the worst, he is just the worst right In this
moment.
So that beard reaction killedme.
But yeah.
So Roy very nonchalantly saysyeah, she told me about it, it's
okay.
Nate is visibly disappointedthat it's okay.
I kissed her, I kissed yourgirlfriend Rory's.
Still, yeah, we're good.

(01:09:32):
And now Nate is offended.
All Jamie did was talk to herand you wanted to kill him.
Don't you at least want toheadbutt me or something?
You made a mistake, nate, don'tworry about it.
No, no, I deserve to beheadbutted.
At which point beard graciouslyoffers I'd be happy to headbutt

(01:09:53):
you.
I can do that, and which iswhat I love about this.
That moment and I actuallyrealized that, uh, I, I have a
beard, an actual beard character, uh, over the years of my life.
That I'll share about that in asecond, because it really made
me laugh out loud when Irealized um, but ted knows beard

(01:10:18):
and ted knows how beard feelsright now about nate.
Ted knows what beard thoughtwas going to be confessed.
Ted knows that this headbuttain't got shit to do with that
kiss of Keeley and he's like oh,you know what?
I think that's enough right now.
He's like Dive and Dawn'sdisband, because this meeting is

(01:10:41):
about to become a brawl and Ijust thought that everybody
playing their roles in that Ithought was very funny and very
true to that moment.
But it was fascinating to methat Nate I thought your segue
was really sharp, actually,coach, because Nate feels so

(01:11:04):
fucking dismissed right now andyeah, that's a tough, he's got
very incel qualities feels sofucking dismissed right now and
yeah, that's, that's a toughhe's got.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
He's got very incel qualities.

Speaker 4 (01:11:12):
Yeah, oh, yes, yeah.
Oh a hundred percent, and we'regoing to be getting into this a
little bit later in the episode.
I want to make sure I'm prettysure I mentioned, but I would
like to reiterate, when theythey're talking in a few
episodes ago about they need toget isaac out of his funk and
they need a big dog to talk tohim, and nate's like oh okay,
I'll do it.
And everybody laughs.

(01:11:33):
Everybody laughs, to be fair.
If I told my boss I'm interestedin becoming this accountant or
editor or whatever else, and helaughed at me, I would find a
new job.
If I told somebody honestlythis is what I hope for my
career, and they dismiss that Iwould leave that place of
employment.
I do think that there is a bigdeal to be had.

(01:11:55):
That Nate said I want to bethis.
Ted laughed at him and thenwent and got Roy to do this.
And now Nate is like oh okay,well, I'm on the same level as
Roy.
I, though it's a mistake, I canhit on his girlfriend because
he and I are about the same.
And Roy's like yeah, no, you'renot a threat.
Jamie is a threat.
Jamie might actually get Keely.

(01:12:15):
You, nate, nobody's taking youseriously.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
Like it might be a last man on earth type situation
.
I hate to break it to you, nate.
I mean, it is how far Keeleyhas to work her way down the
roster before you're getting thecall from the bullpen.
You know?
No, it's just not.

Speaker 4 (01:12:38):
Will Forte would be way above Nate at this point.
Also, Jason Sudeikis does makean appearance on Last man on
Earth, just in case anybodywanted to catch up.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Love it.
Roy says wait.
So sometimes the fuckingDiamond Dogs is just about
chatting and shit and no one hasto fucking solve anything, and
nothing ever changes.
He says sometimes, yeah, andRoy says that's cool and turns
away, and then they do thefanboy thing.
Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.
A lot of fist pumping from Tedand then we're out of the scene.
I just want to point out.

(01:13:11):
I want to point out we're notgoing to end.
Don't leave yet.
Don't leave yet.

Speaker 3 (01:13:14):
This scene.

Speaker 2 (01:13:15):
We're not going to end this scene.
I'm just saying that's wherethe scene ends, because then we
get an overhead shot of the nextmatch.
But Um, but uh, ted fucked upbig time.
Tell me how and why.
Big time this happens in myfamily.
So I grew up in a family, um,where conflict was everything
Like.
I grew up in a family where itwas people always ribbing and

(01:13:39):
constant conflict all the time.
So I am not conflict aversebecause I grew up.
I can.
It's, it's the, it's theliteral water that I swam in my
entire childhood and formativeyears.
Now I've built a in my own home.
I've built with my family andwith Julianne.
I say myself, but Julianne andI together have built a.

(01:14:02):
She is lovely and smart and kindand principled.
She is lovely and smart andkind and principled, and so we
have built a family that isbased on discussion and
conversation and all sorts ofvery, very generative affirming
practices.
But conflict still does happenand I notice when it happens.

(01:14:24):
Her instinct because she grewup in a family that's conflict,
diverse, and this is not a knockon her is to be like you know
what, let's take a deep breathand we'll, we'll hit that back,
and for me it's.
That's usually when some of thegood stuff happens.
Yep, is is when now let's digin.
Okay, like somebody should haveexplained to nate what was going

(01:14:45):
like instead of him.
Now nate goes away with badfeelings.
It's like the wrong time to cutit off.
And I'm not saying like, oh,it's great, you gotta have
conflict.
I'm not some barbarian, but Ithink like, even if you're,
sometimes it is, maybe we'lltake a little break, we'll come
back and we'll discuss why, butit's.
But you don't just end it andthen put a period on it.
It could be a comma in thesentence, but it shouldn't be a

(01:15:06):
period on it.
It could be a comma in thesentence, but it shouldn't be a
period.
When you finally hit pay dirt,when there's actual gold at the
end of the vein that you'remining, that's when you have to
get to the gold.
You don't just say that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:18):
I'd push back a little on that.
Yeah, I'd push back a little.
It's not disagreeing as such,but I'd push back a little.
It's not disagreeing as such,like whole heart, but I'd push
back a little, which is, I think, sometimes as a leader, as a
coach, there could beconversations you don't want to

(01:15:40):
get into and, in a way, ifyou're, if for nate, like
specifically here with Nate,what would we be communicating
to Nate that would be helpful inthis moment?
Right, like so, if sure youcould give him the truth of Nate

(01:16:01):
.
Ain't nobody worried about youtaking a girl?
That's like.
Ain't nobody worried about youtaking a girl?
Right, like that's just a thing, let it go because it doesn't
exist.
But what's that actually do fornate and or richmond in this
moment?
Like they're about to have,they're about to head out to the

(01:16:24):
pitch, like what?
What exactly?
Like, let's say, we hit like Iget what you're saying, that and
I'm and I'm with you, sometimesfor better, for worse.
Also, I think it's interestingthat we both are perfectly, uh,
comfortable with conflict andhave both, uh, married women who
have the good sense to saylet's take a breath.

(01:16:45):
Probably a good thing so nobodydies um, yeah, but but yeah, I
think sometimes it's like youknow what?
What is, I guess, for me?
Sometimes now I'm getting moreand more to to what end?
On almost everything I do, Icould do that, but to what end?

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
but you could put it in nate's, in nate's court.
I'm not saying you couldn'ttake a break and have this
conversation.
I'm not saying you have to haveit when all the tempers are
high.
You gotta figure it out.
But at some point someone couldsay Nate, sure, I can see that
you're frustrated.
You didn't get headbutted.
Explain why.
Well, because you made me feellike I didn't matter and I
wasn't worthy of it.
Well, keely's attracted to cockypricks, and you're not a cocky

(01:17:27):
or whatever.
Like you could make it so.
Or she's attracted tofootballers.
You're not a football, you're afootball coach.
She's not trying ted, she's nottrying to beard.
Should they be mad too?
Like, what I'm saying is likethere's lots of ways to
articulate it in, in ways thatare clarifying and so.
But instead, in lieu of that,when you just say, oh, all right

(01:17:48):
, all right, let's go, let's getback to work, now he's got to
go stew and bad things happen,even if it's a conversation
where you say, okay, roy, I'dlike you to talk to nate and get
to the bottom of this, becauseI noticed he wasn't cool with
that and you know like, whateverthe, the, the tactic is, it
should be addressed.
It shouldn't just be left wideopen because people incels like

(01:18:12):
Nate can draw the wrongconclusions and bad shit happens
is all I'm saying.
You can take this loss and turnit into a win if you're a good
enough leader.
One of the things I didn't getto say while we were talking
about incels is there's a wholeJordan Peterson thing.
They have gurus that aretelling them the wrong things,

(01:18:34):
and so that's part of why youknow they're not.
They're looking for answers andthey're getting them in the
wrong places.
And I promise you, if I putCoach Bishop in a room with 200
incels, maybe he doesn't change200.
But I promise you they're goingto think differently when they
leave that room.
So it's just you know it'sagain, again, not all of them,

(01:18:56):
whatever, and in this case Ijust didn't like that.
Now Nate is left to his owndevices.
He was clearly frustrated.
You know it's insulting for him.
When you have a real fragileego like that and you're already
self-loathing, weird stuff canhappen.
You just address it, go ahead,boss.

Speaker 4 (01:19:16):
Well, I actually agree with almost everything you
say, which doesn't happen thatmuch.
The only two things that I willneedle at is one you said
you're not always looking forconflict.
You're not a barbarian orsomething I hate.
Framing a conflict orconfrontation or even fights

(01:19:37):
like not violent in bad faith,mean dirty fighting, but like
having a conversation wherevoices are raised and tempers
are up with somebody that youlove and it's safe, totally fine
.
One of my favorite things Iactually like.
I feel comfortable in it, I'mfine in it.
I don't think it's bad in anyway, shape or form.
I think if that is notcomfortable for you, that

(01:19:59):
shouldn't be the communicationstyle that somebody brings to
you, right, but if both beabsolutely fucking fine, I could
scream at my siblings and we'll, we're fine, we're fine.
At the end of it, like it's nota big deal.
Um, the only other thing I knowthat we point to Jordan
Peterson or fucking Andrew Tateor whoever else, all these
horrible people that are tellingpeople horrible things, and it

(01:20:21):
sucks that they are.
But you exist in a world whereAndrew Tate is telling you that
you should be an asshole, andthat's how you get ahead, and
that's how you get a woman, andthat's how you become successful
.
And you are not listening tothem.
So, even though I understandhaving a certain amount of
sympathy for incels who arelistening to those people, they
are making choices.

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
I'm just saying let's not generalize Great.
Yes, I just think, like thatwhole incel community, I bet bet
30 of them are autistic andthey're undiagnosed.
Autistic kids like I'm justsaying like, look at as a white
man who tries to be constantlybettering themselves.
Many, many, many, many, many.
Almost all of the life moments,the, the milestones I was

(01:21:06):
theoretically promised by theuniverse, like you know, in
growing up, that whatever I got,none of them, none like, none
of the things that were liketheoretical markers of male
patriarchal success I got almostnone of.
You know, like I just never.
Part of it is me choosing not togo that path, but part of it is

(01:21:27):
just like the world changedwhile those things were still in
play.
And it's not whatever.
Now I can be mad about it.
I can say, oh, you know, I wasthinking about like the concept
of like a promotion where peoplepop like bottles of wine and
like, hey, you got the corneroffice.
Or oh, this guy made partner,things like that.
That in our formative yearswe're like, oh, this is what

(01:21:50):
you're supposed to aspire to andI never did so, I never got
them.
But I'm like, it's just, I cansee how the earth shifts under
people and there's, there's, ifyou're not sure how to handle it
, uh, it can.
It can be confounding and, and,boss, you're 100 right that, uh
, you know some of these peopleshould not be almost.
You know it's hard, but when,again, when you're, when you're

(01:22:12):
lonely and you're looking forany answers, there are people
who are experts at me, just likewe said, rupert knew who to
talk to, um, there are peopleyou know.
And to create a fisher atrichmond, um, there are people
who are tailor-made for lonelymen who are looking to point the
finger at someone and, again, acertain percentage of them are

(01:22:36):
malleable enough to buy into it.
So, yes, it's a complicatedissue.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
Before we move on from this and I will make this
quick I promise One of thethings my boss used to say that
I know I've mentioned, so Idon't want this to sound bitchy.
I mean this in the most puresense of the way.
Why did you tell us that?
What is it about yourunderstanding that there are
some incels who are strugglingwith things that you wanted to
make sure that we knew?

(01:23:04):
Because I feel like what I'vesaid is I know that they're
lonely, I know that it'sdifficult, I know that there are
bad role models, I understandsort of the motivation and the
context in which somebody mightbecome an incel, and what I am
more judging is, outside of thatwater that they're swimming in,

(01:23:25):
they are an incel.
So it feels like you want tocontinually remind us.
Well, they are an incel.
So it feels like you want tocontinually remind us.

Speaker 2 (01:23:30):
Well, that's an incel , is what you're calling them?
No, no, no, no.

Speaker 4 (01:23:34):
You're saying me no, no, no, no.
I'm genuinely wondering why isit that you want to say you have
sympathy for their loneliness?
What are you trying to conveyto me when you say that?

Speaker 2 (01:23:45):
No, no, it's not that .
It's sympathy for the lonely.
I have sympathy for yes, that'salready asked and answered the
loneliness part of it.
I'm saying the way out is Ihave sympathy for them not
knowing the right road andmisunderstanding that the earth
has shifted under their feetwhile they weren't paying
attention.
I've seen evidence of that inmy own life.

(01:24:05):
I think it's when, again, thereare people that are really good
at giving a false, falseprofits, Like it's like okay,
here's the way out, but that'snot really the way out, but
you've been looking for the wayout, so it's natural to go down
that road.
I just think that that I'mhesitant to generalize, but it
doesn't Wait, wait, sorry.
What do you mean by that whenyou say I'm hesitant to

(01:24:25):
generalize, but?

Speaker 4 (01:24:26):
but it doesn't wait, wait, sorry.
What do you mean by that whenyou say you you're hesitant to
generalize?

Speaker 2 (01:24:31):
I don't know enough about the incel term.
I don't know if these, ifincels, call themselves incels
or if that's something we'velabeled them like.
Once upon a time it was likeguys who were on 4chan, you know
what I mean.
It was like these.
Yeah, they were just like thesecrazies that were outside the
whatever, and now it's justgrown into this thing.
So I don't know enough about it.
I don't know enough about it tosay, okay, I'm not, I'm not

(01:24:53):
going to label, I don't know.
Uh, which ones are sort ofreachable, which ones are I
don't know.
I honestly don't know.
I'm just saying, in general, Ialways feel sympathy for people
who, um, uh, are, are confusedabout the world that they live
in and have.
Now that we said you've given,you said I have sympathy too.

(01:25:16):
So now it's like how now, wheredo we go from there?
And you're saying, well, you'vechosen to listen to assholes.
Then you have a problem withthat.
Yeah, it sucks.
I'm just saying I wish we couldput Coach Bishop in front of
them so they could have adifferent person to listen to,
and that would be a bettersituation.
I just want them to have, Iwant everyone it's not just them

(01:25:37):
, it's not everyone who'sfeeling the earth shift under
their feet.
Look at anyone that is not ableto deal with climate change is
going through the same thingwhere they go.
There's mosquitoes in LA, okaywait, I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (01:25:51):
I need to cut you off because I feel like you're
re-explaining something that Iunderstand and moving farther
away from the question that Iasked, which was why do you have
a problem with thegeneralization?
What is it about thegeneralization that you think is
a bad thing?
Because what I considered waswe're talking about a group of
people, whether theyself-identify or they have the

(01:26:11):
same traits as people, who areincels, and you say I don't want
to generalize.
What is the bad part ofgeneralizing?
What do you think that I amsaying about them when I label a
group of people who identify asincels as incels?

Speaker 2 (01:26:26):
I'm actually not.
I'm not reacting to youlabeling them.
I'm saying in general Okay, doI know enough about the spectrum
of the incel community to sayall incels are X?
No, I don't.
I don't think you do.
I don't think any of us do.
I don't think enough.
I don't think probably enoughhas been done to understand that
.

Speaker 4 (01:26:44):
This is the disconnect between what I am
saying and what you are saying,Because what you are saying is I
don't know enough about incelsto say X, Y or Z about them.
What I am saying is, if aperson is a self-identified
incel and they say I deserve awoman because of X, Y and Z,

(01:27:05):
what I am saying about them isnot they are bad people or they
deserve to be punished, or Inever want to speak with them or
they're irredeemable.
I'm not saying any of that.
I am saying what you told mewas you can't get a woman
because you're not a Chad orwhatever else.
And I am saying well, thereality of the situation, the
reality of his situation, is heneeds to update, he needs to

(01:27:28):
change, he needs to adapt inorder to change this incel thing
.
If he wants a woman, what hehas to do is become the person
that a woman wants.
To date.
I am not making any sort ofcharacteristic judgment or
character judgment.
I'm not saying good, bad,anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:27:45):
I am am saying but you're also focusing on women,
which I don't think is necessary.
My understanding of it is notjust limited to women, it's sort
of a worldview well, so this isgenerally not having the
position in life not having.
So you're focusing on one partof it and I'm saying I just
don't know enough to say topaint everybody with the same
brush and I, but I mean I'malways hesitant to do, I'm

(01:28:05):
always hesitant to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
I'm always hesitant to do that.
I mean it stands forinvoluntary celibate right.
So I mean in a way, yes, I hearwhat you're saying, that there
may be a broader, that there arebroader issues to be brought
into it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:17):
We just called.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
Nate an incel.

Speaker 4 (01:28:19):
We said he had incel vibes.
And he does Right and he doesbut.

Speaker 3 (01:28:23):
But I'm saying he kind of does have some of that
going on.
I mean, he even said I'm verypicky, so are women Right?
So he, he, he, he ain't beenturning them back Like ever
since his dad sent old girl awayin high school, you know, yeah,
so, but, but, but I think Idon't know if it's a

(01:28:46):
colloquialism to say I'm notsaying like I didn't know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:49):
I'm finding out right now that there are people who
are self-affirming card-carryingincels, who I know that there's
.
I guessed that that was it.
But I'm saying I think we'reusing it to paint the larger
picture of dissatisfied men, ofany you know sort of race.
I'm saying in general, I'm I, II don't know enough to paint

(01:29:15):
everybody with the same brush.

Speaker 4 (01:29:17):
Okay, it's a, it's a really basic, no, but what I'm
saying is that I'm not trying topaint anybody with a brush.
What I'm saying is that so whatyou said said earlier about
Republicans is that you werelike, well, there are good
Republicans and then there'sMarjorie Taylor Greene and what
I'm saying is but what I'msaying is I don't think every
Republican is as bad as MarjorieTaylor Greene.

(01:29:38):
I'm saying every Republican isa Republican because they are a
Republican.
Like there's no generalizationfor me when I say that I am not
drawing a conclusion outside ofthe fact that you usually vote
for the Republican candidate.
I am not talking about yourbeliefs or who you are as a
person, or your morals.
I am saying that this is athing that I know about you you

(01:29:59):
are a Republican, that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:00):
Right, and that's a party that people register and
vote for and they choose it.
And I was saying the way wewere talking about in cells was
colloquially as like a segmentof the popular.
I wasn't saying only the peoplewho self identify or make a
declarative statement thatthey're.
It's not like registering for apolitical party.
I'm just saying I don't evenknow what we're talking about

(01:30:21):
because I can't track it.

Speaker 3 (01:30:22):
I think I do, but like cause?
It's not about.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
Actually, I think you're reacting to me saying
that you're saying somethingwrong, and I'm not.
I'm just saying in general, forme, I try to always look for
the humanity in people and Ialways think like I try to allow
people to be redeemable in mymind until they aren't, and so
that's it.
I don't think you disagree withme about that.
You're nodding and so I'msaying that's kind of how I'm

(01:30:48):
approaching this.
Uh, you know, in a broadfashion.

Speaker 3 (01:30:50):
I and and I actually I was really curious.
Uh, as you both know, for meit's always the the best
questions that make me go, andso that was my reaction when
boss said, why did what made youneed to communicate to me,
right?
And I was like, oh, that'sinteresting, because then that
becomes about what you feltwasn't being served.

(01:31:11):
It sounds like in part, youthought people who don't deserve
whatever this analysis is orwhatever might be negative about
what we're saying, could besort of herded into being
described in a given way.
But I also wonder if our desireto be understanding and maybe

(01:31:35):
Ted does some of this too,actually, now that I say it or
think it, our desire to beunderstanding leads us to accept
the unacceptable, right.
So Nate's out of hand.
Like, nate is out ofmotherfucking hand.
Like, even if it wasn't, evenif it was just word, is that

(01:32:00):
Richmond considered parking thebus, but then the head coach
decided to be aggressive, likenone of that should be in the
fucking paper.
Like he's out of line, right.
And so sometimes and I'm notsaying this specifically, what
you're doing, but what thequestion like started to pick at
, for me is okay.
So let's say, nate does feel away, and that's why he told the

(01:32:25):
newspaper how we decided on ourstrategy.
That doesn't make going to thepaper about it okay or
acceptable or any of thosethings.
And I think sometimes and Ithink this plays into the
curious, not judgmentalconversation, I think where
there's sort of this blur tothis blur and and and uh in a

(01:32:48):
place a version of it I thinkspeaks to the same thing, you'll
tell me is when people talkabout being um tolerant, and
then there's this attempt toflip it around and make it then
that somehow I should betolerant of misogyny or tolerant
of white uh supremacy, and I'mlike, absolutely the fuck not
Like I'm not, this isn't likelike we're not, this is a

(01:33:12):
theoretical game here Like I'mtrying to create justice in the
world and this ain't it.

Speaker 1 (01:33:16):
So I think sometimes in our attempts to be quote
understanding the behavior.

Speaker 3 (01:33:23):
Because the behavior cannot be redeemed, the person
can be redeemed.
Because the behavior cannot beredeemed, the person can be
redeemed, and I think that getsyou know it gets very gray
sometimes as to which one we'reactually speaking to.

Speaker 2 (01:33:40):
I think that's incredibly well said, coach.
Yeah, no, I think you make agreat point.
The behavior itself issomething that's tough.
That can be tough, and I listen.
Maybe I just means I need to goread up a little bit more on
what defines an incel.
Seriously, I've never it's Ihave so much on my plate.
I get that the last thing Iwant to do is learn more about

(01:34:02):
incels.

Speaker 3 (01:34:03):
I'm like, oh no no, I , I certainly don't think you
need to do that.
I think they're where they are.
But the other piece that didjump out here and I didn't want

(01:34:26):
to lose it was the piece aboutNate not being considered a big
dog and sort of the fallout fromthat and how much of that that
Ted owns, needs to manage, needsto deal with.
And we're definitely going toget to that and I think there's
I think there's a lot to getinto there and I do think
there's some ways in which Tedcould have handled Nate more
effectively.
But I will throw in that at acertain point in our life we

(01:34:52):
have to start getting real aboutwho we are and who we are not.
And it's an ongoing, it's alifelong process, it's all sorts
of things.
But I don't see how I'm evergoing to be a pacifist.
This is not who the fuck I am.
This is not Like.

(01:35:12):
Maybe one day I will be, maybeI'll change, but as of this
moment in my life I just don'tsee.
And so to sort of say to peoplewell, I'm a pacifist, you know?
They're like are you sure?
Because last we heard, youbusted out somebody's fucking
window for bothering your wife.
So you busted out somebody'sfucking window for bothering
your wife, so you would amendthat statement.
So I think sometimes I thinkpart of this is also Nate does

(01:35:37):
not know who the fuck Nate is,so he wants to try.
He's kind of behaving likesomebody in high school or even
college who's like oh yeah,where I came from.
I was Jimmy, but now call meJames, and I used to be a nerd,
but now I wear a leather jacket,so I'm a cool kid.
He's trying on oh, I'll be abig dog.
It's like actually no, youwon't.

(01:35:57):
You'll never be that dude.
That's not who you are In someways, ted's not that dude.
And Ted, don't pretend to bethat dude.
Ted comes into the locker roomfor the first time.
That is not how I would haveintroduced myself to a team.
We talked about it at the time.
I would have come in.
I've been like all right, youknow eyes on me, you know it was
been respectful.
It wouldn't have been a BobbyKnight speech, but certainly

(01:36:20):
wouldn't have been keep doingwhatever the fuck you're doing
while I'm talking.
Like that's a habit we need tobreak now.
Like don't don't be doing whatthe fuck you're doing.
I'm talking.
That's a habit we need to breaknow.
Don't be doing what the fuckyou're doing.
I'm talking is more what wemeant to say, but that's not Ted
, you know what I mean.
So I think part of Nate's workis finding out who the fuck Nate
is, so that he doesn't say shitlike I'm the big dog who should

(01:36:40):
go talk to Roy about somethingwhen that's.

Speaker 2 (01:36:43):
What In what universe bro In?
What in what universe bro in?
In the strategic universe he isthe brains of the operation.

Speaker 3 (01:36:53):
But but then he that translates but if he should but
he should get that then right,like in a funny way, roy over
emphasizes I have this boxwithin I and within I exist,
which is why, like even sayinghe has a feeling in this scene
is like you know him trying itand like this to take it a

(01:37:13):
little toe outside that box.
And meanwhile Nate is like oh,I am all things in the universe
and it's like but you're reallynot though.
Not though, and you have to.
It's.
It's imperative if you're goingto be an effective coach, to
know yourself and keep knowingyourself better, because when
whoever you're coaching sensesthat you're full of shit, it's

(01:37:37):
game over.
And so if nate goes out thereand pretends to, be boss is
nodding, boss is nodding isthey're gonna.
Roy is actually a going to.
Roy is actually a big dog.
Jamie is actually a big dog.
If you go play big dog in frontof them, they're going to be
like what the fuck is this?

Speaker 4 (01:37:55):
Yeah, you know what?
It's actually very similar toseason one, the last episode
when Ted comes in after theirloss.
He doesn't come in and say, oh,we're going to get him next.
He's like, oh, this is fuckingsad, this is really fucking sad,
like this is really hard.
That's right, it's good thatwe're all together in it, but he
was honest about what washappening and that level of

(01:38:15):
authenticity not just honesty-authenticity is what is needed.

Speaker 2 (01:38:23):
Yes, absolutely, we're going to leave it there
today.
Um, lots of things to thinkabout.
Uh, coach, where do people findyou if they want to find you?

Speaker 3 (01:38:31):
I'm going to shout out uh, unstuck as fuck the
stage show.
Key west.
Um, you can stream that.
Um, I will make sure.
Oh, the link is actually in theshow notes.
Um, so encourage you to uhcheck it out.
I actually found myselfrevisiting for some stuff I had
to work on.
I was like you know what Morepeople should see this?
I think this could help somepeople, so I'm going to promote

(01:38:54):
it right now.

Speaker 2 (01:38:55):
I agree.
I think everyone who listens tothis should definitely watch
that Boss.
What about you?

Speaker 4 (01:39:01):
You can find me at Blue Sky.
It's Emily Chambers, also onthreads at emilychambers.31.
And hopefully sometime God helpme writing at the Antagonist,
which is antagonistblogcom.

Speaker 2 (01:39:16):
Thank you boss.
Okay, this has been part fourof our discussion about
inverting the pyramids ofsuccess, the pyramid singular.
I put an S on there for somereason.
Inverting the pyramid ofsuccess.
Thank you for joining us.
This has been a real doozyconversation.
I'm going to go splash somecold water on my face and do

(01:39:40):
some real hard thinking aboutwhy I partnered with these two.
Why I partnered with these two.
Please support your locallibraries and the written word,
and until next time we are.

Speaker 3 (01:39:56):
Richmond Till we Headbutt Neat.

Speaker 2 (01:40:01):
Bingo.
We'll see if that happens nexttime.
Thanks everybody, We'll see you.

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Ted Lasso | S2 Ep12 Part4 "Inverting the Pyramid of Success"

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