August 24, 2024 • 58 mins
What if true unity within the church could transform not just your faith, but your entire community? Join us on this journey as we sit down with Pastor Mark Borseth from Resurrection Lutheran Church to explore the profound significance of unity within the body of Christ. Drawing from nearly 27 years of pastoral ministry and the powerful metaphor in 1 Corinthians 12, Pastor Mark shares how recognizing the church as a diverse body with many indispensable parts can deepen our collective faith and transcend denominational boundaries.
Listen as we delve into scriptures like Ephesians 4 and Psalm 133 to underscore the beauty and necessity of integrating diverse theological streams—contemplative, holiness, charismatic, and more—for a holistic representation of Jesus and the Christian faith. Experience firsthand accounts of how different Christian traditions can reveal new facets of Jesus' character, enhancing our spiritual maturity and fostering a deeper sense of unity. Concluding with a heartfelt prayer for unity and transformation, this episode invites you to embrace the rich diversity within the Christian community.
Connect with Pastor Mark at http://www.rlcok.org/
Connect with Bryan at thetestimonypodcast.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bryan Kelley (00:08):
Welcome to the Testimony Podcast.
I'm your host, br Kelly.
We've got an awesome episodetoday.
It has been a long time coming.
I appreciate all of you guysout there waiting patiently for
(00:28):
the next episode.
I've brought you a good onetoday.
I am here in the studio I saystudio but it's actually an
office but I've got Mr MarkBorseth here.
He's a pastor of ResurrectionLutheran Church and we are so
(00:50):
blessed to have him on today.
You want to say hi to thelisteners out there, hi,
listeners out there.
So we're just really excited tobring you guys an episode today
.
We're talking about unity in thebody of Christ, unity in the
church.
It's such an important topicfor today and it's one that's
really close to my heart.
(01:11):
You know people out there whoare listening.
You'll kind of know a littlebit about my story because of
previous episodes, but I'm thetype of person I was raised in a
Catholic church.
I had that traditionalupbringing.
I kind of I attend anon-denominational church now,
but I'm definitely more in thecharismatic bent.
But we also have a larger bodyof Christ out there.
(01:33):
That is, there are manydifferent members of many
different denominations andsometimes we have a tendency to
view the church kind of on avery small microcosm, you know
perspective.
We kind of look at our ownlittle body of believers and
kind of define that as thechurch.
And we have a tendency to maybe, you know, write off the other
(01:54):
denominations, as you know,maybe in error, or they're
missing something, or they don'thave what we have in, you know,
our own church circles, or theydon't have what we have in our
own church circles.
And so it's just a reallyimportant thing to get God's
heart on what unity in thechurch looks like and what's
expected of us as believers inChrist.
(02:16):
And I kind of want to start offthis discussion pulling up a
scripture that is well known andit's talking about the body of
Christ and its many members.
And you guys will know thatthis is from 1 Corinthians, 12.
And I'm just going to read itreal quick and we'll kind of get
(02:38):
into it a little bit.
So just as the body is one andhas many members, and all of the
members of the body throughmany are one body, so it is with
Christ, for in one spirit we'reall baptized into one body,
jews or Greeks, slave or free,and we are all made to drink of
one spirit.
For the body does not consistof one member, but of many.
(02:58):
If the foot should say becauseI'm not a hand, I do not belong
to the body, that would not makeit any less a part of the body.
Because I am not a hand, I donot belong to the body, that
would not make it any less apart of the body.
And if the ear should say,because I am not an eye, I do
not belong to the body, thatwould not make it any less part
of the body.
If the whole body were an eye,where would be the sense of
hearing?
If the whole body were an ear,where would be the sense of
(03:19):
smell?
But as it is, god arranged themembers in the body, each one of
them as he chose.
If all were a single member,where would the body be as it is
?
There are many parts, yet onebody.
The eye cannot say to the handI have no need of you.
Nor again the head to the feetI have no need of you.
On the contrary, the parts ofthe body that seem to be weaker
are indispensable, and on those,the parts of the body that we
(03:40):
think are less honorable, webestow the greater honor, and
our unpresentable parts aretreated with greater modesty,
which are more presentable partsdo not require but God has so
composed the body, givinggreater honor to the part that
lacked it that there may be nodivision in the body but that
the members may have the samecare for one another.
If one member suffers, allsuffer together.
(04:02):
If one member is honored, allrejoice together.
Now you are is honored, allrejoice together.
Now you are the body of Christand individually members of it.
And I kind of want to just stopthere for a second.
And you know, this is awell-known verse in church
circles and certainly I've heardit many times before, and I
have the tendency to alwaysthink about it in a very
(04:24):
individualistic sense, with,like, the people sitting next to
me in the church pews or chairsand kind of looking down, and
you know, the one person thatalways, you know, says the same
thing at church every day andlike, okay, well, that person's,
you know, he's essential, he's,he's, uh, you know, a member of
my body.
I have to love him, I have tocare for him.
And we have a tendency to thinkabout this verse in a very
(04:47):
small scale, like all of thesepeople seated around me on
Sunday.
That's what God's talking about, that's what the scriptures are
talking about, but there'sactually a way to view this more
corporately right, and so Ikind of want to kick off to you
and why do we have a tendency tomake it so small in our mind
and not the larger body ofChrist that it's probably
actually talking about?
Pastor Mark (05:08):
Yeah, it is interesting to think about
because I agree with you that Iwould have early on.
It's how do I become a goodindividual Christian?
Well, I need to be nice to thepeople around me.
I need to honor the people whogo to church with me, but I
think so much of it is.
The whole point is that thetrajectory of a life like that
is how can I get myself toheaven when I die?
(05:29):
So, I need to be good to theother members of the body so
that I can earn my way.
But I think, as soon as Istarted to realize that the
trajectory of the Christian lifeisn't how do I get to heaven,
but the trajectory of theChristian life is I'm saved by
grace, through faith in Christ.
So now, how does heaven getaccess to my neighbor through me
(05:50):
?
And as I think about that, it'snot just how do we have a
nice-looking body in the church,but it's how do we become, as
it says in Ephesians, the fullstature of Christ for the sake
of our neighbor.
And so that's really why wehave unity.
Our unity is not just to have anice worship service or a nice
(06:13):
congregation.
We have unity so that the wholeworld can experience God's
goodness and God's love.
And so the more that I spendtime as an individual Christian
and as a pastor, the more I'mstarting to realize that
everything that I experiencefrom God is not just for my sake
, but it's for the sake of myneighbor, it's for the sake of
(06:37):
the community.
And so the more I understandthat, the more it helps me to
see that the importance of myrelationship with other people
in the church is not just so wecan have a nice church service,
but it's so.
Our world is transformedbecause we're actually living
out what we're created to do.
Bryan Kelley (06:54):
Yeah, and that's so interesting because it's
always.
I have always a tendency to justmake it about us, to make it
about our individual experience,but it's about changing the
world and it seems like there'sa constant readjustment that has
to happen in our perspectivesbecause as we go through life
and we have our own strugglesand our own challenges, you know
, our tendency is to make itabout ourselves, to fix
(07:16):
ourselves and to not reallygrasp the larger picture that a
unified body of Christ is whatwill change the world.
And until we're unified in someway in some designed plan that
God has for the church, we'renot going to be the force that
transforms the world completelyright, we're going to be still
(07:38):
missing something, missing largepieces of ourself, because we
haven't really given ourselvesover to the pursuit of unity.
And even this topic I don'tknow how many people are
actually talking about unityacross denominational lines, how
many people are calling forthat and actually practicing it
(07:59):
and making it a point topractice it.
And that's why I love thisconversation with you, because
you actually make it a point topractice this in your daily life
and so talk a little bit aboutthe ways that you practice this.
Pastor Mark (08:12):
Okay, yeah, it's been interesting.
I've been a pastor for almost27 years now and it has been
encouraging because early on inmy ministry the walls, I think,
between denominations werehigher than they are now.
So through the course of myministry I've seen a lot of
those walls get smaller and so Iam hopeful that way.
(08:32):
But as I think about in my ownlife, I grew up in a place where
all there were it was a smallNorwegian community in northern
Iowa, a town called Decorah, andit was in that community
basically because it wasNorwegian and Norway was state
church Lutheran.
Probably two-thirds of thepopulation of the town I grew up
(08:55):
in was Lutheran, so it's likemy whole diversity was either
Lutheran or not Lutheran, whichbasically meant Lutheran or
Catholic, and as Lutherans weweren't supposed to love the
Catholics because they werewrong.
Bryan Kelley (09:06):
But no, just kidding.
Pastor Mark (09:08):
But that was the whole diversity I had growing up
and even as I began my ministry.
I lived in the upper Midwestand there were enough Lutherans
that even in my ministerialgroups I never had a need to
have ministerial groups thatwere really much bigger than
just other Lutherans too.
And so it's been interestingthat, especially in moving
further south, there's probablya fifth the number of
(09:33):
congregations in the whole stateof my denomination in the whole
states of Arkansas and Oklahoma, which is my district, my synod
here, than there was just inone of the Twin Cities.
So it's like there's 45churches of my denomination in
Arkansas and Oklahoma total.
There are probably 250 just inMinneapolis and 250 just in St
(09:54):
Paul so it was much easier tojust spend time with people like
me in that part of the countryand I think, by doing ministry
in Alabama for a while and thenOklahoma.
The Lutherans this is sort of ajoke, but the Lutherans aren't
as dense in this part of thecountry as they are in the upper
Midwest, so but yeah.
Bryan Kelley (10:12):
So you're sort of forced to cross those
denominational lines and beexposed to other churches and
denominational categories.
Pastor Mark (10:21):
Yeah, when I was in Minneapolis, there were all
these different ministerialgroups and I was in the Lutheran
ministerial group and now herein Oklahoma City or in Yukon,
the suburb that we're in thething that's been neat about it
is the first place that I'veever been in a ministerial
that's included everybody,everybody, from the Pentecostals
to the Catholics, to theBaptists, and it's probably also
(10:44):
been the ministerial group thatI felt the most connected to, I
think, because we're able tolove each other across some of
our diversity.
Bryan Kelley (10:52):
Yeah, and so do you think that that's one of the
things that are necessary tokind of push the body of Christ
towards unity?
Is it maybe more of theseministerial alliances in the
different parts of regions andstates and cities and things
like that?
Pastor Mark (11:07):
Yeah, I think so and I think also it's just the
way that the ministerial groupsare handled.
Many of the ones I've been inhave been more just, very
business focused.
It's been more.
People haven't really been veryvulnerable because it's like
you're competing with all theother pastors.
Bryan Kelley (11:24):
It's all a giant competition to grow your
membership.
Pastor Mark (11:26):
Yeah, it's like a competition of well, we had this
program and we're growing thisfast and we have this much money
come in, and often it's therelationship level doesn't get
very deep in those kinds ofministerial groups.
And so a few years ago Istarted getting together with
(11:47):
just intentionally asked adiverse group of pastors here
from UConn if they would beinterested in getting together
once a month for coffee and notjust to talk shop but actually
just ask what's going on in eachother's lives and pray with
each other.
And I honestly thought thatnobody would say yes to that
invitation.
I looked at the ministerialgroup here in Yukon and I
(12:07):
thought, based on a few years ofexperience here, who are the
people that have genuinely askedme how I was doing, who are the
people that I feel like theyreally care about what's going
on in my life?
That if I had something go on,who would be the first people I
would talk to?
And so I just picked five, adiverse group well, actually
four others than me and justsaid I'm going to go ahead and
(12:31):
intentionally just ask and wheneverybody says no, then I'll
drop the whole idea.
But what ended up happening wasI ended up asking this group
and every single one of themsaid, yeah, I'll do that.
And so it was the Catholicpriest in town, it was Christ
Church Yukon, which was anindependent Christian church
across the street Bethel, whichhad historically been Baptist,
(12:55):
more non-denominational, and aNazarene, and it was really
interesting as we got together.
As we got together, the intentwas to not just talk theology or
not just talk business, butactually so, how's life going,
how's your health, what arethings we can be praying for for
(13:18):
you and your ministry?
And those were some of thewarnings that I looked forward
to each month more than anythingelse in my ministry was to just
take a couple hours and justsit down.
Often it was in either someoneelse's, sometimes in each
other's church, but often it wasin somebody's living room.
Actually, I really miss FatherRex because he makes the best
coffee.
(13:40):
But yeah, there was justsomething about the atmosphere.
But yeah, there was justsomething about the atmosphere.
You could just sort of exhaleand just be present and just
feel like there's somebody who'snot there just as a competition
, for sure, but also not assomeone who's just there to.
You need to protect yourselffrom them.
But it's like, yeah, thesepeople understand me.
They understand the dynamics ofbeing a pastor.
(14:02):
They understand the dynamics ofclergy families, father Rex, a
little bit different that way,but still there was just
something that was freeing to bewith people who knew what you
were going through, maybe from adifferent perspective, but yet
it's like we could just share.
This is what's going on with mymarriage.
This is what's going on withchurch politics.
(14:22):
This is what's going on withchurch politics.
This is what's going on with myhealth.
And so we walked through thingswith Father Rex, had a little
cancer thing that he wentthrough, and just different
things.
It was just to know that we hadnot just other clergy, but we
(14:52):
actually had friends who werethere for the sake of each other
.
And so that was one of theplaces where I really started to
think that communities arereally suffering when churches
end up being just sort ofisolated silos.
But when actually the wallsstart coming down and we start
getting to the place where Iwanted to be at, the place where
I knew the other pastors andtheir ministries well enough
that if someone came to mychurch and well, this really
doesn't fit.
I'm not used to this liturgical, formal, lutheran stuff that I
(15:13):
would not be offended, but Icould actually sort of say, well
, what kind of church are youlooking for?
And know enough about the otherchurches in town to very
confidently say, well, why don'tyou go over and check this
church out?
And so that's something whereand I hope that they maybe were
thinking the same thing but Ithink if that could be the kind
of relationship that churcheshad in the community of I mean,
(15:37):
it's like a restaurant Somebodycomes to a Chinese restaurant
and they don't like Chinese food.
It's not like you try toconvince them to like Chinese
food.
Bryan Kelley (15:46):
Here, eat this, you know what You'll like it.
There's a.
Pastor Mark (15:48):
Mexican restaurant down the road that maybe you
might like.
Bryan Kelley (15:51):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (15:51):
And to not be offended at that, but to just
say you know what?
We've got a diversity in ourcommunity and we I mean
different people are wireddifferently.
Some people experience theirfaith more through feelings and
emotions.
Some people experience theirfaith more through intellect.
Some people experience theirfaith by going out and just
(16:12):
getting busy doing things withtheir hands.
And which one is right?
All of them are right.
It's just how do we end uprealizing that together we can
offer our community much morethan if we all tried to just be
cookie cutter franchises of eachother?
That our diversity can be agift, as long as we're not using
(16:35):
it to separate ourselves fromeach other and build our own
kingdoms.
Bryan Kelley (16:39):
I think that it's so interesting to hear you talk
about that, because it's verymuch.
The concept of change has tostart in a human heart, right,
and it starts with intimacy.
So, when you're sharing, I justthought well, how do we get
closer to God, how do weexperience more of God and more
of God's hand on our life?
And it starts with the intimacywith him, right?
(17:01):
If you don't spend time gettingto know him and his word and
through prayer and throughproximity.
You're not ever going toexperience a stronger
relationship and our unity withother pastors in this situation
without getting to know them andspending time with them and
(17:28):
lowering the walls and allowingintimacy to kind of grow,
something between you guys.
It's a beautiful concept that Ifeel as though we do a really
sometimes lousy job with is wedon't allow ourselves to be
intimate with um people whomight be our competition, so to
(17:48):
speak, and we don't allow thosethings to grow.
And just the fact that you'recrossing that that threshold and
inviting people into your life,being vulnerable with them, um,
that trust is is something thatthat builds um harmony between
the groups.
And I got an email, actuallyfrom a church I used to attend
(18:09):
down in Texas and it was justrecent, but let me just read you
this little excerpt from hisemail.
It says it just brought it tomind A study on friendship from
a few years ago calculated thehours it takes to move through
different stages of friendship.
It takes eight hours to callsomeone an acquaintance.
(18:29):
It takes 40 to 60 hours to callsomeone a casual friend.
It takes 90 hours to callsomeone a friend and 200 hours a
close friend Community in thebody of Christ takes time,
intentionality and work, andit's just like I mean that
encompasses this discussion thatit literally takes time and
(18:51):
proximity to grow relationshipswith people.
Pastor Mark (18:54):
Yeah, and it's not even just to grow your own
relationship, but it actuallyincreases your experience of God
.
Yes, I always thought that,because I was able to have the
privilege of being in acommunity where I could only
need to hang out with otherLutherans if that would enhance
my relationship with Jesus, thatI'm not distracted by all these
(19:14):
things.
It's people like me I can spendall my time with.
And so, with no distractions,I'm going to have the deepest
relationship with Jesus.
Distractions, I'm going to havethe deepest relationship with
Jesus.
And this summer, as part of mysabbatical, I had been
introduced to CS Lewis.
It just gave me a differentpicture of what's one of the
reasons why church unity makes adifference.
(19:35):
And so CS Lewis, writer of MereChristianity, was part of a
group of other fantasy writerswho were Christians, and there
were a couple of guys, one thatmost people would recognize his
name, and it was JRR Tolkien,who wrote.
Bryan Kelley (19:53):
The Hobbit Lord of the.
Pastor Mark (19:53):
Rings and there were other people in the group.
There was a guy, and now I'mactually forgetting the name, oh
, charles.
His name was Charles.
My brain was going a differentdirection, but there was a story
that CS Lewis shared about hisexperience in the group and he
said that Charles ended up dyingyoung.
And basically CS Lewis hadthought, and he referred to
(20:17):
Tolkien as Ronald, so I'll sayRonald through the rest of the
thing but basically he said,well, thought to himself that
now that I'm not dividingRonald's attention isn't divided
between me and Charles, thatwe're actually going, I'm
actually going to be able to geta greater relationship with
Ronald because now I'm notcompeting with Charles.
Bryan Kelley (20:40):
Yeah, now I'll have all the time with Ronald.
Pastor Mark (20:42):
And so what ends up happening is he starts to think
well, I'm really lookingforward to having more time with
Ronald.
And then he started spendingtime with Ronald and he saw
there were certain aspects ofhim that never showed up again
after Charles wasn't in the room.
There were the ways that heresponded to Charles's jokes, or
the certain parts of Ronald'spersonality that came out when
(21:02):
Charles was in the room, certainparts of Ronald's personality
that came out when Charles wasin the room, and it really made
him to think that maybeChristian love is not a selfish
love, but actually we all get toknow each other better when
there's more people in the roomwho have different perspectives,
and I've discovered that to bemy own case.
So it's like each person in theroom does not dilute your
(21:23):
ability to experience each otherperson in the room, does not
dilute your ability toexperience each other person in
the room, but each person in theroom actually gives you a
different perspective, where yousee things in each other that
you wouldn't see if that personwasn't in the room.
And I think about in ourrelationship with Jesus.
What I'm discovering is thereare certain things about Jesus
that I didn't see when I wasonly with people who thought and
(21:45):
saw things my way.
But when I started spendingtime with my evangelical or
Baptist friends, there werethings about evangelism that I
didn't see.
When I was just with myLutherans and started hanging
out with my Pentecostalcharismatic friends, there were
certain things that I didn't seeuntil I started, didn't
experience tangibly in some wayswithout hanging out with that
(22:08):
portion of Jesus.
So it's basically there'ssomething about the more diverse
a group of Jesus' friends thatwe hang out with, the more we're
going to see different aspectsof who he is.
The water level gets raised foreverybody.
Bryan Kelley (22:23):
Yeah, you're not losing anything.
It's not being diluted.
It's actually being enhancedand like when you were sharing
that I mean immediately.
Ephesians 10 came to mind, thatit tells us that through the
church, the manifold wisdom ofGod is made known to the rulers
and authorities in the heavenlyplaces, and so the church is the
expression of God's manifoldwisdom, like the multifaceted
wisdom the reflective wisdom ofmany different parts.
(22:47):
And you know, this beautifulcompany of people and all of the
different ways that we shinedisplays God's wisdom.
And so who are we to scoff atGod's diamond, which is the
church?
Pastor Mark (23:00):
Yeah, in many ways it's like I just as you were
saying, that I was thinkingabout if we, if you only have
one facet, then all you have isa mirror.
Bryan Kelley (23:09):
Oh, that's so good , but when you've got all the
facets, then it's like you haveall this, the beauty that starts
reflecting.
Pastor Mark (23:15):
Wow, that's really good, that's really good.
Bryan Kelley (23:18):
When, uh, when you spoke earlier, you brought up
Ephesians 4, and I have thescripture here.
So Ephesians 4, 11, he gave theapostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the shepherds andthe teachers plural, all of
those you know, kind ofcomposing the many different
church expressions that thereare the larger body of Christ,
(23:39):
to equip the saints for the workof the ministry and for
building up the body of Christ.
And so what is the ultimate end?
It's until we all attain to theunity of the faith and the
knowledge of the Son of God, tomature manhood, to the measure
and the stature of the fullnessof Christ, so that we may no
longer be children tossed to andfro by the waves carried about
(24:01):
by every wind of doctrine, byhuman cunning, craftiness and
deceitful schemes, rather,speaking the truth in love or to
grow up in every way into himwho is the head, into Christ,
from whom the whole body, joinedand held together by every
joint with which it is equipped,each part is working properly,
makes the body grow so that itbuilds itself up in love, but it
builds itself up in love.
And so it's this idea that we'llnever reach spiritual maturity,
(24:27):
we'll never reach the fullnessof Christ, until we get our
heads wrapped around thisconcept of unity and what unity
looks like, and I almost feellike there's a greater call in
this hour for and the HolySpirit is impressed upon my
heart that the upcoming move ofGod in the region and in this
(24:47):
day, in this hour, is dependentupon our unity as a greater body
, and so I just feel likethere's something on that.
Can you speak at all to that?
Pastor Mark (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, I think that is true and it's been
interesting.
I went and heard.
If you're familiar with many,actually 60 years ago now, the
Cross and the Switchblade waswritten by David Wilkerson and
one of the main characters inthat story was a gang leader
named Nicky Cruz in New YorkYork, and Nicky Cruz is still
(25:26):
going strong, going and speakingall around the world at age 85.
I got a chance to hear him lastweek, but that was at a Latino
church here in Oklahoma City andjust starting to hear.
The more places I go, the moreI keep hearing that, yeah, our
region, something's happeningand it's happening because
there's getting to be unitybetween the churches and I think
, well, if there's any placethat's lost in the country, it's
California.
That's where this church leaderwas from, san.
Bryan Kelley (25:49):
Diego.
Hey, I'm going to take thatpersonal.
Pastor Mark (25:51):
I know I knew you were from California, that's why
I said that.
But he said there's somethingthat's happening in Southern
California and he's seeing thatthere's this unity that's
spreading all the way fromSouthern to Northern California
and it's wherever I go.
It's like that's often theingredient that pops up.
Obviously, prayer is important,very important.
But there's also this sensethat where unity happens which
(26:14):
is interesting because you thinkof Psalm 133, it's like how
good and pleasant it is whenbrothers dwell together in unity
because that's where theblessing is poured out.
And I think that we miss out ona lot of blessings because we
don't have that unity.
But I see that popping up inconversations with clergy people
around the country, that wheresomething is happening, often if
(26:38):
someone asks how do you thinkit's happening, one of the first
things that I hear as theresponse is it's because there
seems to be the walls seem to becoming down.
We're starting to see ourselvesas one body and it reminds me
it's okay if I go into something.
Bryan Kelley (26:54):
I don't want to.
Well, I just wanted to stop youreal quick.
I have Psalms 133 on my phone.
I pulled up because I wanted totalk about this, the verse that
talks about for harmony.
It's as precious as theanointing oil that was poured on
over Aaron's head, that randown his beard and onto the
border of his robe.
And I like kind of taking thisconcept that you know you have
(27:18):
the body of Christ right Onceit's unified, when it's clothed
in unity, the robe is wrappedaround the body right.
Then, and only then, is theanointing oil poured out on the
head, dripping down the beardand then onto the robe.
And it's actually the anointingcomes when the unity is
gathered together.
And like this is a beautifulpicture of what happens when we
(27:42):
operate in harmony, we operatein unity, the anointing flows.
It's just really cool that youbrought that scripture up,
because I had it up to talkabout next.
Pastor Mark (27:51):
Yeah, and I think that that actually fits well,
because then it goes on to talkabout the dew of Mount Hermon.
Mount Hermon, it was like therewas so much moisture there that
it actually ended up wateringwhat was down below it.
There was that picture thatMount Hermon was the source of
the water.
Bryan Kelley (28:08):
Yeah, wow.
Pastor Mark (28:08):
There's that unity, that when we actually are
together, it's like we createthat mountain that actually ends
up flowing down into thecommunity around us.
But as I've been going throughmy sabbatical and exploring
different the benefits of unityand the whole that, like I said,
in my 27 years of ministry,I've seen some of those walls
(28:30):
come down.
One of the books each time Iread a book it's like it refers
to another book that makes mewant to read that, which refers
to another book that makes mewant to read that, and I'm
hoping I remember the name ofthis one right, but it's by
Richard Foster, called Streamsof Living Water is the name of
the book.
I keep wanting to call itStreams in the Desert, but
(28:51):
Streams of Living Water.
And he was talking about how hehas been just speaking into the
church over the years that he'sstarting to see and his image
was very much like that each oneof the different streams of the
church over the years that he'sstarting to see, and his image
was very much like that each oneof the different streams of the
church is like its own littlestream that goes through the
community and that each one ofthem are pretty shallow and
(29:14):
pretty narrow.
Bryan Kelley (29:16):
Yeah, there's a difference between a stream and
a river right.
Pastor Mark (29:19):
And that he's starting to see those streams
come together into a river whichcan flow deeper and wider.
And it was really interesting to, just because so often we think
of streams of the church thatwe're not part of and we
criticize them for what we don'tlike about them.
Yeah, but he was talking abouthow each of these streams and he
(29:39):
broke them down into sixdifferent streams and he said
each one of these streams hasits strengths and each one of
these streams has its weaknessesor its blind spots, and the
book, basically, is broken downby a chapter on each of the
streams and he'll talk aboutsort of the biblical reference
(30:00):
of the stream and he'll talkabout, like a historical figure
and a more modern figure, whorepresents that stream.
And as I was listening to thatand the importance of just how
each one of the streams areneeded he talked about, he said
(30:21):
so he gave all these historicalpeople who said this person fits
in this stream and he said butthere's actually one person who
perfectly personifies all six ofthese streams, and he said
Jesus.
And we often think, well, we'rethe ones that represent Jesus,
but often some of the streams ofthe church that we're busy
disagreeing with are actuallyrepresenting something of Jesus
(30:45):
that we may not be very good atseeing or representing ourselves
, and so, as he went through thewhole thing, it really made me
think about why we need eachother, and most of us don't just
fall in one of the streams.
Most of us have sort of amixture, but maybe okay if I
just do like a quick overview ofeach of the six streams.
Bryan Kelley (31:05):
Yeah, no, absolutely Like as you're
talking, like, I have Psalm 46,4 up and it's talking about the
river of gladness and it'ssaying there is a river whose
streams multiple streams makeglad the city of God, the holy
place where the most high dwells.
So it's the streams that formthe river that makes glad.
Pastor Mark (31:24):
And it's interesting that the biblical
image of the river is that itstarts out but it doesn't.
It keeps on getting wider anddeeper.
So at first it's like you'rejust putting your toe in and
then you're waiting and thenyou're swimming.
So yeah, I love some of thoseimages.
But as I was thinking about it,it really made me think it
changed the way that I looked atthe different streams.
It changed the way that Ilooked at the different streams.
(31:44):
Like I'd said, I often lookedat them for what I disagreed
with about them and how mystream was better.
But he broke it down intobasically six streams and I mean
sort of subjective, but I thinkit covers pretty much the whole
spectrum of the church and hetalked a little bit about.
(32:05):
The first one was thecontemplative stream, or the
more prayer-focused stream,where it's like the monks, it's
the people, that their maindirection or focus of their
Christian life is between themand God.
Bryan Kelley (32:15):
To steal away to retreat, yeah.
Pastor Mark (32:18):
I'm going to change the world by spending time in
the presence of God.
And so he talked abouthistorical.
So, jesus, what did he do?
He went off with his father andthat's what changed who he was.
And so there's those streams,the contemplative streams, where
people are just.
They're prayer warriors, and Ineed to have those prayer
(32:39):
warriors in my life.
Bryan Kelley (32:40):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Mark (32:41):
And so I appreciate that I have some of that stream
that flows into my life and myministry, because I have people
whose primary orientation istoward God.
Bryan Kelley (32:52):
Yeah, and there's houses of prayer.
That that's what that wholecollective is about.
It's about seeking the face ofGod and His presence, and I've
got wonderful friends that arepart of prayer houses.
I just yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Mark (33:06):
But yet, if that's your only focus, that's where
the monks and the nuns sort oflost some of their.
Let's go and separate ourselvesfrom the world to be with God.
Bryan Kelley (33:14):
Yeah, and you can't be salt or light or leaven
very well when you're hiddenaway somewhere, if you're hidden
away in a mountain and younever come back.
Pastor Mark (33:22):
Yeah, so that was the first stream that he talked
about, and then he went on totalk about the holiness stream.
And being from the upperMidwest in Lutheran Catholic
territory, especially as aLutheran, I was pretty much
taught that, well, youdefinitely don't want to do good
works because then it meansyou're not relying on grace.
Yeah, I mean that's sort of thejoke about it.
(33:43):
I never did a good work in mylife because I'm a Lutheran.
That way I can show I'mdepending on grace.
But I think, coming especiallybeing in the South, there's a
lot more of the holiness stream,of just that sense that when
you live according to God's word, when you allow the work of
Holy Spirit in your life, thatit changes who you are and you
become a more beautiful personand you show the world what it
(34:05):
looks like to be in relationshipwith God.
So there is something aboutthat that we are.
Bryan Kelley (34:11):
You look different as.
Pastor Mark (34:12):
God's people.
We're supposed to be abillboard of what it looks like
to live in relationship with Godaccording to God's law, and so
the holiness stream has beensomething I've really been
blessed to spend time with theNazarenes and different groups
of you know what I've beenmissing out on, that I've been
so focused on well, I get toheaven by grace that I don't
(34:33):
actually focus on the gift ofthe law and the work to actually
change what I look like.
So that was the second stream,but then often the argument
there is well, you're so focusedon yourself.
So then you get to the nextstream, which is the charismatic
stream, the Holy Spirit stream.
And the Holy Spirit stream isdependent upon the Holy Spirit,
(34:56):
but not just to make themselveslook good, but to actually have
the power of God be displayed inand through them.
Bryan Kelley (35:02):
The demonstration, yeah, the demonstration part of
it.
Pastor Mark (35:04):
But then sometimes you end up missing out on the
I'm going to go do this and nothave the intimacy with God and
you end up discounting the wholeholiness of lifestyle.
Yeah, you shrug that off.
You could have a destroyedlifestyle, but I'm going to have
the power of God.
But I have power.
Bryan Kelley (35:19):
Yeah, I flow with the power.
Pastor Mark (35:22):
And that's where I think a lot of people have
gotten in trouble was, insteadof focusing on their private
time with God or their God, Ineed to live according to your
law, holiness and pleasing andlifestyle and we see a lot of
more recent people have fallenin the charismatic circles and
large big name people becausethey've neglected parts of
themselves, parts of theirdevelopment.
(35:49):
Yeah, so that was the thirdstream he talked about.
Like I said, his premise isthat all of these are
representations of Jesus, all ofthem have strengths, but if
they don't connect with theother streams they're going to
have some blind spots that aregoing to cause problems.
And then the next one he talkedabout was more of the social
justice stream, and the Bibledoes talk about that.
That justice come down likestreams, and this is true
(36:15):
religion caring for orphans andwidows, the whole idea of
Jubilee, that we need to have astructure where the slaves get
set free and people get theirproperty restored.
Bryan Kelley (36:25):
Yeah, the debt erased, yeah.
Pastor Mark (36:27):
And so often this gets to be a stream of the
church that either people loveor people hate all those social
justice people.
But yet it's a part of who Godis in the world.
So we might be praying to God,we might be living a nice, holy
lifestyle, we might be doingmiracles, but we might not be
changing society in a way thatactually sets people free and
(36:50):
restores people.
But yet that can be dangeroustoo, because sometimes we do our
social justice as, instead ofhaving intimacy with God, we're
just busy doing things for God,and so it has its own line spots
as well.
Bryan Kelley (37:07):
It becomes a works-based thing.
I'm going to earn my salvationthrough effort and through
serving.
Pastor Mark (37:13):
Yeah, so it's like I don't need to talk.
I've got my instructions, I'mgoing to go out and do my work
and I never need to talk to Godagain about it.
Bryan Kelley (37:21):
Yeah, he's already talked to me once.
I'm good, or?
Pastor Mark (37:22):
else we get to the place where the end result is
it's supposed to look like thisand we end up disregarding all
of God's commandments to get theend result and we end up
missing out on a lot of theholiness stream gift there.
And then the next one he talkedabout was the evangelical stream
, which is well obviously theBible talks about.
(37:43):
The Word of God is living andactive and powerful.
It accomplishes things.
Faith comes by hearing the Wordand preaching and proclaiming
the Word, and so I think some ofmy Lutheran background is we
didn't get that strong at itbecause we always came from
places that were state church,so it was never converting
(38:03):
people.
It was always well, you'realready a Lutheran because
you're Norwegian, so we justneed to do confirmation and
teach you about the Bible.
But spending time in the Southespecially where I think that
maybe people are a little betterat going out and evangelizing
that there's something about weforget about the power of the
word that well, we need to go do, do social justice, or we need
(38:25):
to do this without realizing ifwe just speak the truth of Jesus
, then God's word willaccomplish things.
Bryan Kelley (38:32):
Yeah, it won't return void yeah.
Pastor Mark (38:33):
But yet sometimes we preach God's word without
actually ever getting to knowour neighbor or loving our
neighbor, or we preach God'sword as if all you need is the
Bible.
You don't need a livingexperience of God working
through your life.
Bryan Kelley (38:47):
You don't need the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Mark (38:48):
Yeah, so there's strengths and weaknesses in that
stream as well.
And then the last stream thathe talked about was the.
He called it the incarnationalstream or the sacramental stream
, and I think that was anotherone in my denomination.
There's a lot of the socialjustice and there's a lot of the
sacramental, incarnational, butbasically that whole idea of
(39:08):
the word became flesh and dweltamong us and expecting to
encounter God in the normaleveryday things of life, which I
think sometimes we think we gotto go to church or have this
religious experience instead ofstarting to see, you know, what
God is being manifest in ourworld, in our relationships, in
our vocations, and so I thinkthere's a strength there that
(39:32):
the holiness side might get sofocused on performance, but the
incarnational streams, I think,sometimes get so caught on.
But we meet God in ourbrokenness.
So it's like well, it's whilewe're sinners, while we're
enemies of God.
That's when Christ died for us.
The word became flesh and dweltamong us in our weakness.
(39:52):
We carry this treasure inearthen vessels and I think part
of my tradition that becomes adanger.
There is that we're socomfortable with God
encountering us in ourbrokenness, which is a gift.
The rest of the streams need tohear.
He doesn't wait for us to fixourselves, but I think sometimes
we get used to staying in ourbrokenness.
Bryan Kelley (40:13):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (40:14):
That God met me while I was doing all these
things or living this way.
Bryan Kelley (40:18):
Yes.
Pastor Mark (40:19):
So he loves me the way I am.
I don't need.
Maybe, when you get to thatplace, maybe you need to start
hanging out with some of theseholiness people who said, well
great.
He met you in your weakness butif you live this way, you may
actually experience more of whatGod wants to do in your life.
So, as I was just listening tothat book, it really made me
(40:40):
think.
It changed my perspective fromthe competition mode or the
criticism mode to more of thatsense of a hunger.
So how can I fully experiencethe gifts of these other streams
?
How can I share my gift withthe other streams in a way that
it's not to criticize, it's notto condemn, it's not to judge,
(41:04):
but it's a way that we need eachother.
Bryan Kelley (41:06):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (41:12):
That all of our individual streams are effect on
our communities, our experienceof God are all going to be
limited unless we actually allowother streams to share their
gifts and allow people fromother streams to show us our
blind spots.
And so that's one of the thingsthat I think it's given me,
sort of a that book has given mea little more motivation to not
just use this as a discipline.
(41:32):
Well, I've got to bedisciplined because the Bible
says I'm supposed to have unity,but it gives me more of a
hunger, sort of like the CSLewis thing of I have a hunger
because I want to experiencemore of Jesus, and I'll
experience more of Jesus if I'vegot the contemplative and I've
got the holiness and I've gotthe social justice and I've got
the evangelical and I've got allof these different streams.
(41:56):
If I have those people in mylife and I think it starts with
pastors, but I think it also I'mhoping it'll go to church
members that then it's great tohave the pastors come together
in unity.
But my vision is that weactually encourage our church
members to not be so busy, usingall of their energy to do
ministry in our church buildingthat we can actually encourage
(42:18):
people to say why don't you gettogether for a coffee group with
your neighbors, your co-workers?
Maybe you've got a neighbor ora co-worker that goes to the
Baptist church.
Maybe you've got a neighbor ora coworker that goes to the
Baptist church.
You've got a coworker that goesto the Catholic church.
You've got a coworker that goesto the Pentecostal church.
Instead of saying, well, you goto different churches, so I'm
just going to go to my churchBible study.
What would it be like if youactually got together with
(42:39):
diverse groups of people andsaid let's share life together.
Let's not start with ourtheological distinctives, but
let's just ask how life's going.
What's going on in yourmarriage?
What's going on in your family?
What's going on with yourhealth?
How can we pray for you?
And then just pray together,study the Bible together and,
(43:00):
instead of arguing about whichperspective is right, to just
say well, you know what?
From my perspective, when Iread this, it's like it gets me
excited because it brings outthis part of who Jesus is and to
have your neighbor to say yeah,I read this.
I've always thought of it in adifferent way, but I get excited
because it brings out thisaspect instead of saying you're
(43:20):
wrong and I'm right.
Bryan Kelley (43:21):
Both of you are edified and you end up sharpened
yeah.
Pastor Mark (43:24):
So I would love to see every Tuesday morning to do
a prayer and Bible study timeand they say what church are you
(43:49):
from?
And they say well, actuallyfrom four different churches,
and just see what kind ofconversation that starts with
people.
Bryan Kelley (43:56):
Yeah, that's the church that's going to change
the world.
It's the capital C church thelarger church.
Psalm 1-3 says he is like atree planted by streams, like
plural multiple streams.
Sometimes, when you think ofthat verse, you think, oh, he's
planted by a stream, but it'sactually plural planted by
(44:18):
streams of water that yields itsfruit in season and its leaf
does not wither.
In all that he does, heprospers, and that's a picture
of what it looks like.
If you are planted by multiplestreams, gathering your
edification, your encouragement,your teaching from many sources
, many reflections of Jesus, youlive a prosperous life and you
(44:40):
actually change the world aroundyou because you're drawing on
the larger perspective.
You're not staying in your lane, so to speak.
You're understanding andaccepting that there's a larger
revelation of Jesus that thebody is trying to portray.
Pastor Mark (44:55):
Yeah, and I think it fits well with just what
happens after 1 Corinthians.
12 is well, this is the body.
But then Paul quickly goes onto say but there is actually a
proper operating system for allthose gifts to function, and
that is love.
Bryan Kelley (45:10):
Yes.
Pastor Mark (45:11):
We can do all these charismatic things, we can be
holy, we can have a great prayerlife, we can go do our social
justice, and even our socialjustice we might serve people,
just so we can feel better aboutourselves and not get to know
actually love people.
And he says all of these, allof these different things, are
basically missing their point ifthey don't happen in a context
(45:32):
of love.
They're worthless.
Bryan Kelley (45:34):
He says it's the ultimate goal?
Pastor Mark (45:36):
Yeah, it's worthless if you are part of any
of these dreams, but it doesn'tcause you to love your neighbor
, and so yeah, and we can'tforget John 7, 38.
Bryan Kelley (45:45):
Whoever believes in me, as scripture has said,
rivers of living water will flowfrom within them and the
concept there is water flowingfrom you, that water of love to
the world around you, and it'simportant that the source of
that is God's love, revealed inthe church and through the
church.
The river changes the world.
(46:07):
It's kind of like the idea inRevelation, you know, like the
stream flows from the throneroom yeah, yeah, and we're just
called to release that.
Pastor Mark (46:15):
Yeah, and I think that's the context of the
chapter is it's on the last dayof the great day of the festival
?
When they would ceremoniallypour a little bit of water just
to say this is some day, whenGod's kingdom comes, this is
what's going to happen.
To just say, well, let's notjust wait till some day, but
let's actually start practicing.
I think that some day in manyways has already come.
(46:37):
That he referred to the HolySpirit, that was going to be
poured out.
So it's not like we're waitingfor the end of time for the
river to flow out from thetemple.
Bryan Kelley (46:47):
It's flowing already.
Pastor Mark (46:48):
Yeah, it's just we are the temple and if we are
actually experiencing God'sSpirit for the sake of not just
to bless ourselves, because thenwe miss out on the point, but
flowing out to bless ourneighbors, then it's like we're
starting to already be part ofthat thing that was prophesied
(47:09):
each year at the festival, thatthis time is coming, and Jesus,
basically, what part of hismessage was?
That thing you've been waitingfor.
It's happening now, yeah, and Ifeel like there's an invitation
.
Bryan Kelley (47:21):
I feel like even now, even as you're speaking,
that you're speaking itprophetically that there's an
invitation to get in the river,that the river's flowing now.
There's an invitation.
Who is ready to jump in thewaters of unity to see a greater
move of God in this day, inthis hour, in this time and our
(47:42):
timing isn't—what we'reexperiencing now, with our
denominational divisions, is notlike a new problem.
I mean, even in the OldTestament you have 12 tribes
that made up Israel, each ofthem with their own bent, their
own flavor, but you know,corporately they were Israel.
Here I kind of was asking theHoly Spirit like is there a
(48:10):
biblical story concept that kindof encompasses all of these
things?
And just, I mean, I was like 15minutes away from here and he
started talking to me aboutGideon and I wanted to share
this with you, I want to getyour thoughts on this, because I
was just like the Lord juststarted speaking to me and he
was telling me more and more,and I just think that we're at a
Gideon moment right now and Ikind of wanted to share what,
what my thoughts are.
(48:30):
So, you know, you have Gideonand he's unlikely hero right,
he's, you know, hiding, and he'scalled mighty man of valor.
And you have the Midianitesthat are are coming against.
And so he is.
He is there as an unlikely herothat's being called, and he's
(48:51):
asking for confirmation from Godabout whether or not he is
actually being called to dothese things.
And instead of going to histribe I think it's Manasseh he
is asked to come against theseforces.
I think it's the Amalekites andthe Midianites.
But he's asked to gatherdifferent tribes together, right
(49:13):
?
So I think he ends up I have ithere so he goes to Asher,
zebulun and Naphtali and gathersas many people as possible from
different tribes together toface this opposing force which
would, in this time frame andour current modern concept, is
the kingdom of darkness andwe're coming against that with
(49:34):
the kingdom of light.
And so he's going outside ofhis tribe to gather all these
members.
And God ends up telling Gideonlike, oh, there's too many
people, you know, go ahead andsend home everyone that's afraid
, you know.
Like that doesn't want to behere.
And so there's.
Right now there's a largercorporate body, there's a body
(49:55):
of Christ that exists, but a lotof people are fine, and you
know, dandy, to stay in businessas usual and not get involved
in in this, you know, larger warthat we're facing, spiritual
war.
You know, kingdom of darknessversus the kingdom of light.
And you have a lot of peoplewho are just content to just go
(50:17):
back home because maybe they'reafraid, maybe they've got too
many things, you know, focusedon their own life, or they're
just distracted, right?
So you have a large group ofpeople leave.
Then you have God saying, well,there's still too many, and so
he's inviting them down to theriver, so to speak, to drink.
And so he's saying, well, youknow, come down here and we're
(50:40):
going to divide you again.
So maybe there's people outthere listening that, like, yeah
, this concept of unity, I meanit all seems pretty good.
Like I, I can kind of take andglean some things and maybe
apply it to my life.
And those are the people thatare taking water and they're
scooping it and bringing it totheir, their mouth and they're
they're okay with with this ideaand maybe it's sparking
(51:01):
something in them, but they'renot necessarily giving
themselves over to it.
But then you have the 300 menthat shoved their face down and
started drinking with theirtongues from the stream, right,
and I think.
I think that right now we're ata Gideon moment where the people
that are throwing themselvesinto this unity, this stream,
and are lapping up like a dogyou know this concept of what
(51:23):
unity means are is are, they'rethe ones that are going to
change our nation, the world,because those are the people
that are, are headlong into thisconcept.
And then you have, well, whatactually happens after he takes
the 300 men that were all aboutit.
Right, like it was just so cool, the Lord started telling me
(51:43):
like you know, you have arepresentation of all of these
different streams.
Actually, in the allegory ofGideon, you have the bread of
the word tumbling down in thedream and crushing the enemy's
camp.
Then you have the brokenearthen vessels that carry the
torch of the fire of the HolySpirit.
Oh wow, yeah, right, so you haveto.
(52:05):
You know, in our brokennessthat's a beautiful aspect.
And then you have the shofar,the battle cry, the rhema word,
and then you have the shofarrepresented this traditional
ceremonial thing too.
So, like I mean, it's all ofthese beautiful pictures of what
, who, jesus, who God isrevealed in Gideon and what
(52:27):
happens.
It's this revelation of we areoutnumbered, god is too strong,
and you have this decimation ofthese.
It said that the numbers of theMidianites were outnumbering
the sands and the sea, and with300 men, gideon obtains a
victory.
And I feel like we're in thatGideon moment.
(52:47):
I feel like the people thatthrow themselves into unity, who
value each of the streams, whocan see the larger picture of
Christ, those are the peoplethat are going to bring revival.
Pastor Mark (52:59):
Yeah, I love that picture.
Yeah, because all of a suddenyou have a different thing that
defines who you are.
You're not a member of thetribe of Asher or the tribe of
Naphtali or whatever, but you'rethe one who is willing to fight
and not go home because you'reafraid.
Bryan Kelley (53:14):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (53:14):
You're the one who is not focused on what group you
came from.
But this is the way that Idrink, this is the way I do
things.
It's like a whole differentunderstanding of I'm not with a
Baptist, I'm not with a Catholic, I'm with one who drinks the
water, with somebody who isready to fight, and I'm with
somebody who is just hungry,thirsty for more of God.
Bryan Kelley (53:37):
Oh, that's good yeah.
Pastor Mark (53:38):
So that's, that's a neat picture.
Bryan Kelley (53:39):
Yeah, I just loved , I love that you know kind of
that concept of what it lookslike to change the world and it
starts with a hunger and athirst.
Pastor Mark (53:47):
Yeah.
Bryan Kelley (53:47):
Right, and even I had an episode that I did on
revival with a good friend ofmine, rui, and he talked about.
Revival begins in the humanheart and it catches fire
corporately after it burns andthere's a longing and a
disparity between what you knowis available and what you're
experiencing, and that's whatkicks off revival, and I almost
(54:10):
feel like that's the sameconcept as this.
Once you realize what unitycould mean for world
transformation in the body, itshould give us a hunger, and I
feel like that's what you'rehere to release and why we were
recording this podcast.
It's so that you can releasethe hunger and the thirst that
you're carrying for the largerbody and for those, an
(54:31):
impartation and just kind ofwhatever the Holy Spirit leads
you to pray for and to speak,because I believe that the
(54:53):
people listening out there arelistening by design, because
you've been appointed at such atime as this to listen to this
podcast, to have your heartstirred towards unity, have your
heart stirred towards unity andmaking practical steps, like we
discussed earlier, to actuallybreak down barriers and have
coffee with your neighbor andextend a hand of love, across
(55:15):
you know denominational lines,to somebody who you might not
necessarily agree 100% with, butyou can agree with love and
passion and desire for more ofGod.
So it's been such a funconversation to have with you.
Yeah, it's been good.
Pastor Mark (55:29):
I just wanted to let you know.
Bryan Kelley (55:30):
So I've had a really good time, but I'd love
for you to pray and just kind ofrelease whatever God puts in
your heart.
Pastor Mark (55:37):
Okay, yeah, well, god, just thank you for this
time.
Thank you for raising up peoplelike Brian, who realizes that
his calling is to help to getthe message out and to stir up
people by getting out people'sstories.
(55:57):
Like he said, it's ourtestimonies that are often the
things that end up gettingbehind the barriers in other
people's lives that ourarguments would never get behind
.
So, lord, I pray that you wouldcontinue to just release
testimonies that break throughbarriers, that break through
denominational barriers, thatbreak through just intellectual
(56:20):
arguments, where we can actuallylearn to see that we are all
important streams that need toflow together if we are going to
change the landscape around us.
Help us to, instead ofcriticizing the other streams,
help us to understand them andto love the people in these
(56:41):
other streams, and my prayer isthat whoever is hearing this,
that you would stir up theirheart and that you would give
them a hunger to experience moreof you, and that they would
seek to know you, not by goingdeeper into the one well that
they've been in their whole life, but by inviting in streams
(57:04):
that maybe they don't know muchabout, and whether that's an
individual relationship with acoworker or a neighbor, whether
it's visiting a neighboringchurch just to understand
whether it's doing a Bible study, where they are surrounded by
other people who help them tosee different aspects of you.
I just pray that you would be atwork, calling together your
(57:27):
army and, instead of having usdefine ourselves by our labels
that we've come from, to have uscome together based on our new
identity in Christ, that we areone body, and I just pray that,
as we flow together, that ourcommunities would be transformed
(57:49):
and that places that have beendry, places that haven't been
touched because each of ourstreams have been too shallow
and too narrow, I just pray,lord, that there would be people
touched and lives touched thathaven't been touched for years
or decades or generations,because we finally come together
(58:10):
as one in Jesus name.
Amen.
Bryan Kelley (58:15):
Amen, pastor Mark, it's been an honor and y'all
have a wonderful time out there.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
Welcome to the Testimony Podcast.
I'm your host, br Kelly.
We've got an awesome episodetoday.
It has been a long time coming.
I appreciate all of you guysout there waiting patiently for
(00:28):
the next episode.
I've brought you a good onetoday.
I am here in the studio I saystudio but it's actually an
office but I've got Mr MarkBorseth here.
He's a pastor of ResurrectionLutheran Church and we are so
(00:50):
blessed to have him on today.
You want to say hi to thelisteners out there, hi,
listeners out there.
So we're just really excited tobring you guys an episode today
.
We're talking about unity in thebody of Christ, unity in the
church.
It's such an important topicfor today and it's one that's
really close to my heart.
(01:11):
You know people out there whoare listening.
You'll kind of know a littlebit about my story because of
previous episodes, but I'm thetype of person I was raised in a
Catholic church.
I had that traditionalupbringing.
I kind of I attend anon-denominational church now,
but I'm definitely more in thecharismatic bent.
But we also have a larger bodyof Christ out there.
(01:33):
That is, there are manydifferent members of many
different denominations andsometimes we have a tendency to
view the church kind of on avery small microcosm, you know
perspective.
We kind of look at our ownlittle body of believers and
kind of define that as thechurch.
And we have a tendency to maybe, you know, write off the other
(01:54):
denominations, as you know,maybe in error, or they're
missing something, or they don'thave what we have in, you know,
our own church circles, or theydon't have what we have in our
own church circles.
And so it's just a reallyimportant thing to get God's
heart on what unity in thechurch looks like and what's
expected of us as believers inChrist.
(02:16):
And I kind of want to start offthis discussion pulling up a
scripture that is well known andit's talking about the body of
Christ and its many members.
And you guys will know thatthis is from 1 Corinthians, 12.
And I'm just going to read itreal quick and we'll kind of get
(02:38):
into it a little bit.
So just as the body is one andhas many members, and all of the
members of the body throughmany are one body, so it is with
Christ, for in one spirit we'reall baptized into one body,
jews or Greeks, slave or free,and we are all made to drink of
one spirit.
For the body does not consistof one member, but of many.
(02:58):
If the foot should say becauseI'm not a hand, I do not belong
to the body, that would not makeit any less a part of the body.
Because I am not a hand, I donot belong to the body, that
would not make it any less apart of the body.
And if the ear should say,because I am not an eye, I do
not belong to the body, thatwould not make it any less part
of the body.
If the whole body were an eye,where would be the sense of
hearing?
If the whole body were an ear,where would be the sense of
(03:19):
smell?
But as it is, god arranged themembers in the body, each one of
them as he chose.
If all were a single member,where would the body be as it is
?
There are many parts, yet onebody.
The eye cannot say to the handI have no need of you.
Nor again the head to the feetI have no need of you.
On the contrary, the parts ofthe body that seem to be weaker
are indispensable, and on those,the parts of the body that we
(03:40):
think are less honorable, webestow the greater honor, and
our unpresentable parts aretreated with greater modesty,
which are more presentable partsdo not require but God has so
composed the body, givinggreater honor to the part that
lacked it that there may be nodivision in the body but that
the members may have the samecare for one another.
If one member suffers, allsuffer together.
(04:02):
If one member is honored, allrejoice together.
Now you are is honored, allrejoice together.
Now you are the body of Christand individually members of it.
And I kind of want to just stopthere for a second.
And you know, this is awell-known verse in church
circles and certainly I've heardit many times before, and I
have the tendency to alwaysthink about it in a very
(04:24):
individualistic sense, with,like, the people sitting next to
me in the church pews or chairsand kind of looking down, and
you know, the one person thatalways, you know, says the same
thing at church every day andlike, okay, well, that person's,
you know, he's essential, he's,he's, uh, you know, a member of
my body.
I have to love him, I have tocare for him.
And we have a tendency to thinkabout this verse in a very
(04:47):
small scale, like all of thesepeople seated around me on
Sunday.
That's what God's talking about, that's what the scriptures are
talking about, but there'sactually a way to view this more
corporately right, and so Ikind of want to kick off to you
and why do we have a tendency tomake it so small in our mind
and not the larger body ofChrist that it's probably
actually talking about?
Pastor Mark (05:08):
Yeah, it is interesting to think about
because I agree with you that Iwould have early on.
It's how do I become a goodindividual Christian?
Well, I need to be nice to thepeople around me.
I need to honor the people whogo to church with me, but I
think so much of it is.
The whole point is that thetrajectory of a life like that
is how can I get myself toheaven when I die?
(05:29):
So, I need to be good to theother members of the body so
that I can earn my way.
But I think, as soon as Istarted to realize that the
trajectory of the Christian lifeisn't how do I get to heaven,
but the trajectory of theChristian life is I'm saved by
grace, through faith in Christ.
So now, how does heaven getaccess to my neighbor through me
(05:50):
?
And as I think about that, it'snot just how do we have a
nice-looking body in the church,but it's how do we become, as
it says in Ephesians, the fullstature of Christ for the sake
of our neighbor.
And so that's really why wehave unity.
Our unity is not just to have anice worship service or a nice
(06:13):
congregation.
We have unity so that the wholeworld can experience God's
goodness and God's love.
And so the more that I spendtime as an individual Christian
and as a pastor, the more I'mstarting to realize that
everything that I experiencefrom God is not just for my sake
, but it's for the sake of myneighbor, it's for the sake of
(06:37):
the community.
And so the more I understandthat, the more it helps me to
see that the importance of myrelationship with other people
in the church is not just so wecan have a nice church service,
but it's so.
Our world is transformedbecause we're actually living
out what we're created to do.
Bryan Kelley (06:54):
Yeah, and that's so interesting because it's
always.
I have always a tendency to justmake it about us, to make it
about our individual experience,but it's about changing the
world and it seems like there'sa constant readjustment that has
to happen in our perspectivesbecause as we go through life
and we have our own strugglesand our own challenges, you know
, our tendency is to make itabout ourselves, to fix
(07:16):
ourselves and to not reallygrasp the larger picture that a
unified body of Christ is whatwill change the world.
And until we're unified in someway in some designed plan that
God has for the church, we'renot going to be the force that
transforms the world completelyright, we're going to be still
(07:38):
missing something, missing largepieces of ourself, because we
haven't really given ourselvesover to the pursuit of unity.
And even this topic I don'tknow how many people are
actually talking about unityacross denominational lines, how
many people are calling forthat and actually practicing it
(07:59):
and making it a point topractice it.
And that's why I love thisconversation with you, because
you actually make it a point topractice this in your daily life
and so talk a little bit aboutthe ways that you practice this.
Pastor Mark (08:12):
Okay, yeah, it's been interesting.
I've been a pastor for almost27 years now and it has been
encouraging because early on inmy ministry the walls, I think,
between denominations werehigher than they are now.
So through the course of myministry I've seen a lot of
those walls get smaller and so Iam hopeful that way.
(08:32):
But as I think about in my ownlife, I grew up in a place where
all there were it was a smallNorwegian community in northern
Iowa, a town called Decorah, andit was in that community
basically because it wasNorwegian and Norway was state
church Lutheran.
Probably two-thirds of thepopulation of the town I grew up
(08:55):
in was Lutheran, so it's likemy whole diversity was either
Lutheran or not Lutheran, whichbasically meant Lutheran or
Catholic, and as Lutherans weweren't supposed to love the
Catholics because they werewrong.
Bryan Kelley (09:06):
But no, just kidding.
Pastor Mark (09:08):
But that was the whole diversity I had growing up
and even as I began my ministry.
I lived in the upper Midwestand there were enough Lutherans
that even in my ministerialgroups I never had a need to
have ministerial groups thatwere really much bigger than
just other Lutherans too.
And so it's been interestingthat, especially in moving
further south, there's probablya fifth the number of
(09:33):
congregations in the whole stateof my denomination in the whole
states of Arkansas and Oklahoma, which is my district, my synod
here, than there was just inone of the Twin Cities.
So it's like there's 45churches of my denomination in
Arkansas and Oklahoma total.
There are probably 250 just inMinneapolis and 250 just in St
(09:54):
Paul so it was much easier tojust spend time with people like
me in that part of the countryand I think, by doing ministry
in Alabama for a while and thenOklahoma.
The Lutherans this is sort of ajoke, but the Lutherans aren't
as dense in this part of thecountry as they are in the upper
Midwest, so but yeah.
Bryan Kelley (10:12):
So you're sort of forced to cross those
denominational lines and beexposed to other churches and
denominational categories.
Pastor Mark (10:21):
Yeah, when I was in Minneapolis, there were all
these different ministerialgroups and I was in the Lutheran
ministerial group and now herein Oklahoma City or in Yukon,
the suburb that we're in thething that's been neat about it
is the first place that I'veever been in a ministerial
that's included everybody,everybody, from the Pentecostals
to the Catholics, to theBaptists, and it's probably also
(10:44):
been the ministerial group thatI felt the most connected to, I
think, because we're able tolove each other across some of
our diversity.
Bryan Kelley (10:52):
Yeah, and so do you think that that's one of the
things that are necessary tokind of push the body of Christ
towards unity?
Is it maybe more of theseministerial alliances in the
different parts of regions andstates and cities and things
like that?
Pastor Mark (11:07):
Yeah, I think so and I think also it's just the
way that the ministerial groupsare handled.
Many of the ones I've been inhave been more just, very
business focused.
It's been more.
People haven't really been veryvulnerable because it's like
you're competing with all theother pastors.
Bryan Kelley (11:24):
It's all a giant competition to grow your
membership.
Pastor Mark (11:26):
Yeah, it's like a competition of well, we had this
program and we're growing thisfast and we have this much money
come in, and often it's therelationship level doesn't get
very deep in those kinds ofministerial groups.
And so a few years ago Istarted getting together with
(11:47):
just intentionally asked adiverse group of pastors here
from UConn if they would beinterested in getting together
once a month for coffee and notjust to talk shop but actually
just ask what's going on in eachother's lives and pray with
each other.
And I honestly thought thatnobody would say yes to that
invitation.
I looked at the ministerialgroup here in Yukon and I
(12:07):
thought, based on a few years ofexperience here, who are the
people that have genuinely askedme how I was doing, who are the
people that I feel like theyreally care about what's going
on in my life?
That if I had something go on,who would be the first people I
would talk to?
And so I just picked five, adiverse group well, actually
four others than me and justsaid I'm going to go ahead and
(12:31):
intentionally just ask and wheneverybody says no, then I'll
drop the whole idea.
But what ended up happening wasI ended up asking this group
and every single one of themsaid, yeah, I'll do that.
And so it was the Catholicpriest in town, it was Christ
Church Yukon, which was anindependent Christian church
across the street Bethel, whichhad historically been Baptist,
(12:55):
more non-denominational, and aNazarene, and it was really
interesting as we got together.
As we got together, the intentwas to not just talk theology or
not just talk business, butactually so, how's life going,
how's your health, what arethings we can be praying for for
(13:18):
you and your ministry?
And those were some of thewarnings that I looked forward
to each month more than anythingelse in my ministry was to just
take a couple hours and justsit down.
Often it was in either someoneelse's, sometimes in each
other's church, but often it wasin somebody's living room.
Actually, I really miss FatherRex because he makes the best
coffee.
(13:40):
But yeah, there was justsomething about the atmosphere.
But yeah, there was justsomething about the atmosphere.
You could just sort of exhaleand just be present and just
feel like there's somebody who'snot there just as a competition
, for sure, but also not assomeone who's just there to.
You need to protect yourselffrom them.
But it's like, yeah, thesepeople understand me.
They understand the dynamics ofbeing a pastor.
(14:02):
They understand the dynamics ofclergy families, father Rex, a
little bit different that way,but still there was just
something that was freeing to bewith people who knew what you
were going through, maybe from adifferent perspective, but yet
it's like we could just share.
This is what's going on with mymarriage.
This is what's going on withchurch politics.
(14:22):
This is what's going on withchurch politics.
This is what's going on with myhealth.
And so we walked through thingswith Father Rex, had a little
cancer thing that he wentthrough, and just different
things.
It was just to know that we hadnot just other clergy, but we
(14:52):
actually had friends who werethere for the sake of each other
.
And so that was one of theplaces where I really started to
think that communities arereally suffering when churches
end up being just sort ofisolated silos.
But when actually the wallsstart coming down and we start
getting to the place where Iwanted to be at, the place where
I knew the other pastors andtheir ministries well enough
that if someone came to mychurch and well, this really
doesn't fit.
I'm not used to this liturgical, formal, lutheran stuff that I
(15:13):
would not be offended, but Icould actually sort of say, well
, what kind of church are youlooking for?
And know enough about the otherchurches in town to very
confidently say, well, why don'tyou go over and check this
church out?
And so that's something whereand I hope that they maybe were
thinking the same thing but Ithink if that could be the kind
of relationship that churcheshad in the community of I mean,
(15:37):
it's like a restaurant Somebodycomes to a Chinese restaurant
and they don't like Chinese food.
It's not like you try toconvince them to like Chinese
food.
Bryan Kelley (15:46):
Here, eat this, you know what You'll like it.
There's a.
Pastor Mark (15:48):
Mexican restaurant down the road that maybe you
might like.
Bryan Kelley (15:51):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (15:51):
And to not be offended at that, but to just
say you know what?
We've got a diversity in ourcommunity and we I mean
different people are wireddifferently.
Some people experience theirfaith more through feelings and
emotions.
Some people experience theirfaith more through intellect.
Some people experience theirfaith by going out and just
(16:12):
getting busy doing things withtheir hands.
And which one is right?
All of them are right.
It's just how do we end uprealizing that together we can
offer our community much morethan if we all tried to just be
cookie cutter franchises of eachother?
That our diversity can be agift, as long as we're not using
(16:35):
it to separate ourselves fromeach other and build our own
kingdoms.
Bryan Kelley (16:39):
I think that it's so interesting to hear you talk
about that, because it's verymuch.
The concept of change has tostart in a human heart, right,
and it starts with intimacy.
So, when you're sharing, I justthought well, how do we get
closer to God, how do weexperience more of God and more
of God's hand on our life?
And it starts with the intimacywith him, right?
(17:01):
If you don't spend time gettingto know him and his word and
through prayer and throughproximity.
You're not ever going toexperience a stronger
relationship and our unity withother pastors in this situation
without getting to know them andspending time with them and
(17:28):
lowering the walls and allowingintimacy to kind of grow,
something between you guys.
It's a beautiful concept that Ifeel as though we do a really
sometimes lousy job with is wedon't allow ourselves to be
intimate with um people whomight be our competition, so to
(17:48):
speak, and we don't allow thosethings to grow.
And just the fact that you'recrossing that that threshold and
inviting people into your life,being vulnerable with them, um,
that trust is is something thatthat builds um harmony between
the groups.
And I got an email, actuallyfrom a church I used to attend
(18:09):
down in Texas and it was justrecent, but let me just read you
this little excerpt from hisemail.
It says it just brought it tomind A study on friendship from
a few years ago calculated thehours it takes to move through
different stages of friendship.
It takes eight hours to callsomeone an acquaintance.
(18:29):
It takes 40 to 60 hours to callsomeone a casual friend.
It takes 90 hours to callsomeone a friend and 200 hours a
close friend Community in thebody of Christ takes time,
intentionality and work, andit's just like I mean that
encompasses this discussion thatit literally takes time and
(18:51):
proximity to grow relationshipswith people.
Pastor Mark (18:54):
Yeah, and it's not even just to grow your own
relationship, but it actuallyincreases your experience of God
.
Yes, I always thought that,because I was able to have the
privilege of being in acommunity where I could only
need to hang out with otherLutherans if that would enhance
my relationship with Jesus, thatI'm not distracted by all these
(19:14):
things.
It's people like me I can spendall my time with.
And so, with no distractions,I'm going to have the deepest
relationship with Jesus.
Distractions, I'm going to havethe deepest relationship with
Jesus.
And this summer, as part of mysabbatical, I had been
introduced to CS Lewis.
It just gave me a differentpicture of what's one of the
reasons why church unity makes adifference.
(19:35):
And so CS Lewis, writer of MereChristianity, was part of a
group of other fantasy writerswho were Christians, and there
were a couple of guys, one thatmost people would recognize his
name, and it was JRR Tolkien,who wrote.
Bryan Kelley (19:53):
The Hobbit Lord of the.
Pastor Mark (19:53):
Rings and there were other people in the group.
There was a guy, and now I'mactually forgetting the name, oh
, charles.
His name was Charles.
My brain was going a differentdirection, but there was a story
that CS Lewis shared about hisexperience in the group and he
said that Charles ended up dyingyoung.
And basically CS Lewis hadthought, and he referred to
(20:17):
Tolkien as Ronald, so I'll sayRonald through the rest of the
thing but basically he said,well, thought to himself that
now that I'm not dividingRonald's attention isn't divided
between me and Charles, thatwe're actually going, I'm
actually going to be able to geta greater relationship with
Ronald because now I'm notcompeting with Charles.
Bryan Kelley (20:40):
Yeah, now I'll have all the time with Ronald.
Pastor Mark (20:42):
And so what ends up happening is he starts to think
well, I'm really lookingforward to having more time with
Ronald.
And then he started spendingtime with Ronald and he saw
there were certain aspects ofhim that never showed up again
after Charles wasn't in the room.
There were the ways that heresponded to Charles's jokes, or
the certain parts of Ronald'spersonality that came out when
(21:02):
Charles was in the room, certainparts of Ronald's personality
that came out when Charles wasin the room, and it really made
him to think that maybeChristian love is not a selfish
love, but actually we all get toknow each other better when
there's more people in the roomwho have different perspectives,
and I've discovered that to bemy own case.
So it's like each person in theroom does not dilute your
(21:23):
ability to experience each otherperson in the room, does not
dilute your ability toexperience each other person in
the room, but each person in theroom actually gives you a
different perspective, where yousee things in each other that
you wouldn't see if that personwasn't in the room.
And I think about in ourrelationship with Jesus.
What I'm discovering is thereare certain things about Jesus
that I didn't see when I wasonly with people who thought and
(21:45):
saw things my way.
But when I started spendingtime with my evangelical or
Baptist friends, there werethings about evangelism that I
didn't see.
When I was just with myLutherans and started hanging
out with my Pentecostalcharismatic friends, there were
certain things that I didn't seeuntil I started, didn't
experience tangibly in some wayswithout hanging out with that
(22:08):
portion of Jesus.
So it's basically there'ssomething about the more diverse
a group of Jesus' friends thatwe hang out with, the more we're
going to see different aspectsof who he is.
The water level gets raised foreverybody.
Bryan Kelley (22:23):
Yeah, you're not losing anything.
It's not being diluted.
It's actually being enhancedand like when you were sharing
that I mean immediately.
Ephesians 10 came to mind, thatit tells us that through the
church, the manifold wisdom ofGod is made known to the rulers
and authorities in the heavenlyplaces, and so the church is the
expression of God's manifoldwisdom, like the multifaceted
wisdom the reflective wisdom ofmany different parts.
(22:47):
And you know, this beautifulcompany of people and all of the
different ways that we shinedisplays God's wisdom.
And so who are we to scoff atGod's diamond, which is the
church?
Pastor Mark (23:00):
Yeah, in many ways it's like I just as you were
saying, that I was thinkingabout if we, if you only have
one facet, then all you have isa mirror.
Bryan Kelley (23:09):
Oh, that's so good , but when you've got all the
facets, then it's like you haveall this, the beauty that starts
reflecting.
Pastor Mark (23:15):
Wow, that's really good, that's really good.
Bryan Kelley (23:18):
When, uh, when you spoke earlier, you brought up
Ephesians 4, and I have thescripture here.
So Ephesians 4, 11, he gave theapostles, the prophets, the
evangelists, the shepherds andthe teachers plural, all of
those you know, kind ofcomposing the many different
church expressions that thereare the larger body of Christ,
(23:39):
to equip the saints for the workof the ministry and for
building up the body of Christ.
And so what is the ultimate end?
It's until we all attain to theunity of the faith and the
knowledge of the Son of God, tomature manhood, to the measure
and the stature of the fullnessof Christ, so that we may no
longer be children tossed to andfro by the waves carried about
(24:01):
by every wind of doctrine, byhuman cunning, craftiness and
deceitful schemes, rather,speaking the truth in love or to
grow up in every way into himwho is the head, into Christ,
from whom the whole body, joinedand held together by every
joint with which it is equipped,each part is working properly,
makes the body grow so that itbuilds itself up in love, but it
builds itself up in love.
And so it's this idea that we'llnever reach spiritual maturity,
(24:27):
we'll never reach the fullnessof Christ, until we get our
heads wrapped around thisconcept of unity and what unity
looks like, and I almost feellike there's a greater call in
this hour for and the HolySpirit is impressed upon my
heart that the upcoming move ofGod in the region and in this
(24:47):
day, in this hour, is dependentupon our unity as a greater body
, and so I just feel likethere's something on that.
Can you speak at all to that?
Pastor Mark (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, I think that is true and it's been
interesting.
I went and heard.
If you're familiar with many,actually 60 years ago now, the
Cross and the Switchblade waswritten by David Wilkerson and
one of the main characters inthat story was a gang leader
named Nicky Cruz in New YorkYork, and Nicky Cruz is still
(25:26):
going strong, going and speakingall around the world at age 85.
I got a chance to hear him lastweek, but that was at a Latino
church here in Oklahoma City andjust starting to hear.
The more places I go, the moreI keep hearing that, yeah, our
region, something's happeningand it's happening because
there's getting to be unitybetween the churches and I think
, well, if there's any placethat's lost in the country, it's
California.
That's where this church leaderwas from, san.
Bryan Kelley (25:49):
Diego.
Hey, I'm going to take thatpersonal.
Pastor Mark (25:51):
I know I knew you were from California, that's why
I said that.
But he said there's somethingthat's happening in Southern
California and he's seeing thatthere's this unity that's
spreading all the way fromSouthern to Northern California
and it's wherever I go.
It's like that's often theingredient that pops up.
Obviously, prayer is important,very important.
But there's also this sensethat where unity happens which
(26:14):
is interesting because you thinkof Psalm 133, it's like how
good and pleasant it is whenbrothers dwell together in unity
because that's where theblessing is poured out.
And I think that we miss out ona lot of blessings because we
don't have that unity.
But I see that popping up inconversations with clergy people
around the country, that wheresomething is happening, often if
(26:38):
someone asks how do you thinkit's happening, one of the first
things that I hear as theresponse is it's because there
seems to be the walls seem to becoming down.
We're starting to see ourselvesas one body and it reminds me
it's okay if I go into something.
Bryan Kelley (26:54):
I don't want to.
Well, I just wanted to stop youreal quick.
I have Psalms 133 on my phone.
I pulled up because I wanted totalk about this, the verse that
talks about for harmony.
It's as precious as theanointing oil that was poured on
over Aaron's head, that randown his beard and onto the
border of his robe.
And I like kind of taking thisconcept that you know you have
(27:18):
the body of Christ right Onceit's unified, when it's clothed
in unity, the robe is wrappedaround the body right.
Then, and only then, is theanointing oil poured out on the
head, dripping down the beardand then onto the robe.
And it's actually the anointingcomes when the unity is
gathered together.
And like this is a beautifulpicture of what happens when we
(27:42):
operate in harmony, we operatein unity, the anointing flows.
It's just really cool that youbrought that scripture up,
because I had it up to talkabout next.
Pastor Mark (27:51):
Yeah, and I think that that actually fits well,
because then it goes on to talkabout the dew of Mount Hermon.
Mount Hermon, it was like therewas so much moisture there that
it actually ended up wateringwhat was down below it.
There was that picture thatMount Hermon was the source of
the water.
Bryan Kelley (28:08):
Yeah, wow.
Pastor Mark (28:08):
There's that unity, that when we actually are
together, it's like we createthat mountain that actually ends
up flowing down into thecommunity around us.
But as I've been going throughmy sabbatical and exploring
different the benefits of unityand the whole that, like I said,
in my 27 years of ministry,I've seen some of those walls
(28:30):
come down.
One of the books each time Iread a book it's like it refers
to another book that makes mewant to read that, which refers
to another book that makes mewant to read that, and I'm
hoping I remember the name ofthis one right, but it's by
Richard Foster, called Streamsof Living Water is the name of
the book.
I keep wanting to call itStreams in the Desert, but
(28:51):
Streams of Living Water.
And he was talking about how hehas been just speaking into the
church over the years that he'sstarting to see and his image
was very much like that each oneof the different streams of the
church over the years that he'sstarting to see, and his image
was very much like that each oneof the different streams of the
church is like its own littlestream that goes through the
community and that each one ofthem are pretty shallow and
(29:14):
pretty narrow.
Bryan Kelley (29:16):
Yeah, there's a difference between a stream and
a river right.
Pastor Mark (29:19):
And that he's starting to see those streams
come together into a river whichcan flow deeper and wider.
And it was really interesting to, just because so often we think
of streams of the church thatwe're not part of and we
criticize them for what we don'tlike about them.
Yeah, but he was talking abouthow each of these streams and he
(29:39):
broke them down into sixdifferent streams and he said
each one of these streams hasits strengths and each one of
these streams has its weaknessesor its blind spots, and the
book, basically, is broken downby a chapter on each of the
streams and he'll talk aboutsort of the biblical reference
(30:00):
of the stream and he'll talkabout, like a historical figure
and a more modern figure, whorepresents that stream.
And as I was listening to thatand the importance of just how
each one of the streams areneeded he talked about, he said
(30:21):
so he gave all these historicalpeople who said this person fits
in this stream and he said butthere's actually one person who
perfectly personifies all six ofthese streams, and he said
Jesus.
And we often think, well, we'rethe ones that represent Jesus,
but often some of the streams ofthe church that we're busy
disagreeing with are actuallyrepresenting something of Jesus
(30:45):
that we may not be very good atseeing or representing ourselves
, and so, as he went through thewhole thing, it really made me
think about why we need eachother, and most of us don't just
fall in one of the streams.
Most of us have sort of amixture, but maybe okay if I
just do like a quick overview ofeach of the six streams.
Bryan Kelley (31:05):
Yeah, no, absolutely Like as you're
talking, like, I have Psalm 46,4 up and it's talking about the
river of gladness and it'ssaying there is a river whose
streams multiple streams makeglad the city of God, the holy
place where the most high dwells.
So it's the streams that formthe river that makes glad.
Pastor Mark (31:24):
And it's interesting that the biblical
image of the river is that itstarts out but it doesn't.
It keeps on getting wider anddeeper.
So at first it's like you'rejust putting your toe in and
then you're waiting and thenyou're swimming.
So yeah, I love some of thoseimages.
But as I was thinking about it,it really made me think it
changed the way that I looked atthe different streams.
It changed the way that Ilooked at the different streams.
(31:44):
Like I'd said, I often lookedat them for what I disagreed
with about them and how mystream was better.
But he broke it down intobasically six streams and I mean
sort of subjective, but I thinkit covers pretty much the whole
spectrum of the church and hetalked a little bit about.
(32:05):
The first one was thecontemplative stream, or the
more prayer-focused stream,where it's like the monks, it's
the people, that their maindirection or focus of their
Christian life is between themand God.
Bryan Kelley (32:15):
To steal away to retreat, yeah.
Pastor Mark (32:18):
I'm going to change the world by spending time in
the presence of God.
And so he talked abouthistorical.
So, jesus, what did he do?
He went off with his father andthat's what changed who he was.
And so there's those streams,the contemplative streams, where
people are just.
They're prayer warriors, and Ineed to have those prayer
(32:39):
warriors in my life.
Bryan Kelley (32:40):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Mark (32:41):
And so I appreciate that I have some of that stream
that flows into my life and myministry, because I have people
whose primary orientation istoward God.
Bryan Kelley (32:52):
Yeah, and there's houses of prayer.
That that's what that wholecollective is about.
It's about seeking the face ofGod and His presence, and I've
got wonderful friends that arepart of prayer houses.
I just yeah, absolutely.
Pastor Mark (33:06):
But yet, if that's your only focus, that's where
the monks and the nuns sort oflost some of their.
Let's go and separate ourselvesfrom the world to be with God.
Bryan Kelley (33:14):
Yeah, and you can't be salt or light or leaven
very well when you're hiddenaway somewhere, if you're hidden
away in a mountain and younever come back.
Pastor Mark (33:22):
Yeah, so that was the first stream that he talked
about, and then he went on totalk about the holiness stream.
And being from the upperMidwest in Lutheran Catholic
territory, especially as aLutheran, I was pretty much
taught that, well, youdefinitely don't want to do good
works because then it meansyou're not relying on grace.
Yeah, I mean that's sort of thejoke about it.
(33:43):
I never did a good work in mylife because I'm a Lutheran.
That way I can show I'mdepending on grace.
But I think, coming especiallybeing in the South, there's a
lot more of the holiness stream,of just that sense that when
you live according to God's word, when you allow the work of
Holy Spirit in your life, thatit changes who you are and you
become a more beautiful personand you show the world what it
(34:05):
looks like to be in relationshipwith God.
So there is something aboutthat that we are.
Bryan Kelley (34:11):
You look different as.
Pastor Mark (34:12):
God's people.
We're supposed to be abillboard of what it looks like
to live in relationship with Godaccording to God's law, and so
the holiness stream has beensomething I've really been
blessed to spend time with theNazarenes and different groups
of you know what I've beenmissing out on, that I've been
so focused on well, I get toheaven by grace that I don't
(34:33):
actually focus on the gift ofthe law and the work to actually
change what I look like.
So that was the second stream,but then often the argument
there is well, you're so focusedon yourself.
So then you get to the nextstream, which is the charismatic
stream, the Holy Spirit stream.
And the Holy Spirit stream isdependent upon the Holy Spirit,
(34:56):
but not just to make themselveslook good, but to actually have
the power of God be displayed inand through them.
Bryan Kelley (35:02):
The demonstration, yeah, the demonstration part of
it.
Pastor Mark (35:04):
But then sometimes you end up missing out on the
I'm going to go do this and nothave the intimacy with God and
you end up discounting the wholeholiness of lifestyle.
Yeah, you shrug that off.
You could have a destroyedlifestyle, but I'm going to have
the power of God.
But I have power.
Bryan Kelley (35:19):
Yeah, I flow with the power.
Pastor Mark (35:22):
And that's where I think a lot of people have
gotten in trouble was, insteadof focusing on their private
time with God or their God, Ineed to live according to your
law, holiness and pleasing andlifestyle and we see a lot of
more recent people have fallenin the charismatic circles and
large big name people becausethey've neglected parts of
themselves, parts of theirdevelopment.
(35:49):
Yeah, so that was the thirdstream he talked about.
Like I said, his premise isthat all of these are
representations of Jesus, all ofthem have strengths, but if
they don't connect with theother streams they're going to
have some blind spots that aregoing to cause problems.
And then the next one he talkedabout was more of the social
justice stream, and the Bibledoes talk about that.
That justice come down likestreams, and this is true
(36:15):
religion caring for orphans andwidows, the whole idea of
Jubilee, that we need to have astructure where the slaves get
set free and people get theirproperty restored.
Bryan Kelley (36:25):
Yeah, the debt erased, yeah.
Pastor Mark (36:27):
And so often this gets to be a stream of the
church that either people loveor people hate all those social
justice people.
But yet it's a part of who Godis in the world.
So we might be praying to God,we might be living a nice, holy
lifestyle, we might be doingmiracles, but we might not be
changing society in a way thatactually sets people free and
(36:50):
restores people.
But yet that can be dangeroustoo, because sometimes we do our
social justice as, instead ofhaving intimacy with God, we're
just busy doing things for God,and so it has its own line spots
as well.
Bryan Kelley (37:07):
It becomes a works-based thing.
I'm going to earn my salvationthrough effort and through
serving.
Pastor Mark (37:13):
Yeah, so it's like I don't need to talk.
I've got my instructions, I'mgoing to go out and do my work
and I never need to talk to Godagain about it.
Bryan Kelley (37:21):
Yeah, he's already talked to me once.
I'm good, or?
Pastor Mark (37:22):
else we get to the place where the end result is
it's supposed to look like thisand we end up disregarding all
of God's commandments to get theend result and we end up
missing out on a lot of theholiness stream gift there.
And then the next one he talkedabout was the evangelical stream
, which is well obviously theBible talks about.
(37:43):
The Word of God is living andactive and powerful.
It accomplishes things.
Faith comes by hearing the Wordand preaching and proclaiming
the Word, and so I think some ofmy Lutheran background is we
didn't get that strong at itbecause we always came from
places that were state church,so it was never converting
(38:03):
people.
It was always well, you'realready a Lutheran because
you're Norwegian, so we justneed to do confirmation and
teach you about the Bible.
But spending time in the Southespecially where I think that
maybe people are a little betterat going out and evangelizing
that there's something about weforget about the power of the
word that well, we need to go do, do social justice, or we need
(38:25):
to do this without realizing ifwe just speak the truth of Jesus
, then God's word willaccomplish things.
Bryan Kelley (38:32):
Yeah, it won't return void yeah.
Pastor Mark (38:33):
But yet sometimes we preach God's word without
actually ever getting to knowour neighbor or loving our
neighbor, or we preach God'sword as if all you need is the
Bible.
You don't need a livingexperience of God working
through your life.
Bryan Kelley (38:47):
You don't need the Holy Spirit.
Pastor Mark (38:48):
Yeah, so there's strengths and weaknesses in that
stream as well.
And then the last stream thathe talked about was the.
He called it the incarnationalstream or the sacramental stream
, and I think that was anotherone in my denomination.
There's a lot of the socialjustice and there's a lot of the
sacramental, incarnational, butbasically that whole idea of
(39:08):
the word became flesh and dweltamong us and expecting to
encounter God in the normaleveryday things of life, which I
think sometimes we think we gotto go to church or have this
religious experience instead ofstarting to see, you know, what
God is being manifest in ourworld, in our relationships, in
our vocations, and so I thinkthere's a strength there that
(39:32):
the holiness side might get sofocused on performance, but the
incarnational streams, I think,sometimes get so caught on.
But we meet God in ourbrokenness.
So it's like well, it's whilewe're sinners, while we're
enemies of God.
That's when Christ died for us.
The word became flesh and dweltamong us in our weakness.
(39:52):
We carry this treasure inearthen vessels and I think part
of my tradition that becomes adanger.
There is that we're socomfortable with God
encountering us in ourbrokenness, which is a gift.
The rest of the streams need tohear.
He doesn't wait for us to fixourselves, but I think sometimes
we get used to staying in ourbrokenness.
Bryan Kelley (40:13):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (40:14):
That God met me while I was doing all these
things or living this way.
Bryan Kelley (40:18):
Yes.
Pastor Mark (40:19):
So he loves me the way I am.
I don't need.
Maybe, when you get to thatplace, maybe you need to start
hanging out with some of theseholiness people who said, well
great.
He met you in your weakness butif you live this way, you may
actually experience more of whatGod wants to do in your life.
So, as I was just listening tothat book, it really made me
(40:40):
think.
It changed my perspective fromthe competition mode or the
criticism mode to more of thatsense of a hunger.
So how can I fully experiencethe gifts of these other streams
?
How can I share my gift withthe other streams in a way that
it's not to criticize, it's notto condemn, it's not to judge,
(41:04):
but it's a way that we need eachother.
Bryan Kelley (41:06):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (41:12):
That all of our individual streams are effect on
our communities, our experienceof God are all going to be
limited unless we actually allowother streams to share their
gifts and allow people fromother streams to show us our
blind spots.
And so that's one of the thingsthat I think it's given me,
sort of a that book has given mea little more motivation to not
just use this as a discipline.
(41:32):
Well, I've got to bedisciplined because the Bible
says I'm supposed to have unity,but it gives me more of a
hunger, sort of like the CSLewis thing of I have a hunger
because I want to experiencemore of Jesus, and I'll
experience more of Jesus if I'vegot the contemplative and I've
got the holiness and I've gotthe social justice and I've got
the evangelical and I've got allof these different streams.
(41:56):
If I have those people in mylife and I think it starts with
pastors, but I think it also I'mhoping it'll go to church
members that then it's great tohave the pastors come together
in unity.
But my vision is that weactually encourage our church
members to not be so busy, usingall of their energy to do
ministry in our church buildingthat we can actually encourage
(42:18):
people to say why don't you gettogether for a coffee group with
your neighbors, your co-workers?
Maybe you've got a neighbor ora co-worker that goes to the
Baptist church.
Maybe you've got a neighbor ora coworker that goes to the
Baptist church.
You've got a coworker that goesto the Catholic church.
You've got a coworker that goesto the Pentecostal church.
Instead of saying, well, you goto different churches, so I'm
just going to go to my churchBible study.
What would it be like if youactually got together with
(42:39):
diverse groups of people andsaid let's share life together.
Let's not start with ourtheological distinctives, but
let's just ask how life's going.
What's going on in yourmarriage?
What's going on in your family?
What's going on with yourhealth?
How can we pray for you?
And then just pray together,study the Bible together and,
(43:00):
instead of arguing about whichperspective is right, to just
say well, you know what?
From my perspective, when Iread this, it's like it gets me
excited because it brings outthis part of who Jesus is and to
have your neighbor to say yeah,I read this.
I've always thought of it in adifferent way, but I get excited
because it brings out thisaspect instead of saying you're
(43:20):
wrong and I'm right.
Bryan Kelley (43:21):
Both of you are edified and you end up sharpened
yeah.
Pastor Mark (43:24):
So I would love to see every Tuesday morning to do
a prayer and Bible study timeand they say what church are you
(43:49):
from?
And they say well, actuallyfrom four different churches,
and just see what kind ofconversation that starts with
people.
Bryan Kelley (43:56):
Yeah, that's the church that's going to change
the world.
It's the capital C church thelarger church.
Psalm 1-3 says he is like atree planted by streams, like
plural multiple streams.
Sometimes, when you think ofthat verse, you think, oh, he's
planted by a stream, but it'sactually plural planted by
(44:18):
streams of water that yields itsfruit in season and its leaf
does not wither.
In all that he does, heprospers, and that's a picture
of what it looks like.
If you are planted by multiplestreams, gathering your
edification, your encouragement,your teaching from many sources
, many reflections of Jesus, youlive a prosperous life and you
(44:40):
actually change the world aroundyou because you're drawing on
the larger perspective.
You're not staying in your lane, so to speak.
You're understanding andaccepting that there's a larger
revelation of Jesus that thebody is trying to portray.
Pastor Mark (44:55):
Yeah, and I think it fits well with just what
happens after 1 Corinthians.
12 is well, this is the body.
But then Paul quickly goes onto say but there is actually a
proper operating system for allthose gifts to function, and
that is love.
Bryan Kelley (45:10):
Yes.
Pastor Mark (45:11):
We can do all these charismatic things, we can be
holy, we can have a great prayerlife, we can go do our social
justice, and even our socialjustice we might serve people,
just so we can feel better aboutourselves and not get to know
actually love people.
And he says all of these, allof these different things, are
basically missing their point ifthey don't happen in a context
(45:32):
of love.
They're worthless.
Bryan Kelley (45:34):
He says it's the ultimate goal?
Pastor Mark (45:36):
Yeah, it's worthless if you are part of any
of these dreams, but it doesn'tcause you to love your neighbor
, and so yeah, and we can'tforget John 7, 38.
Bryan Kelley (45:45):
Whoever believes in me, as scripture has said,
rivers of living water will flowfrom within them and the
concept there is water flowingfrom you, that water of love to
the world around you, and it'simportant that the source of
that is God's love, revealed inthe church and through the
church.
The river changes the world.
(46:07):
It's kind of like the idea inRevelation, you know, like the
stream flows from the throneroom yeah, yeah, and we're just
called to release that.
Pastor Mark (46:15):
Yeah, and I think that's the context of the
chapter is it's on the last dayof the great day of the festival
?
When they would ceremoniallypour a little bit of water just
to say this is some day, whenGod's kingdom comes, this is
what's going to happen.
To just say, well, let's notjust wait till some day, but
let's actually start practicing.
I think that some day in manyways has already come.
(46:37):
That he referred to the HolySpirit, that was going to be
poured out.
So it's not like we're waitingfor the end of time for the
river to flow out from thetemple.
Bryan Kelley (46:47):
It's flowing already.
Pastor Mark (46:48):
Yeah, it's just we are the temple and if we are
actually experiencing God'sSpirit for the sake of not just
to bless ourselves, because thenwe miss out on the point, but
flowing out to bless ourneighbors, then it's like we're
starting to already be part ofthat thing that was prophesied
(47:09):
each year at the festival, thatthis time is coming, and Jesus,
basically, what part of hismessage was?
That thing you've been waitingfor.
It's happening now, yeah, and Ifeel like there's an invitation
.
Bryan Kelley (47:21):
I feel like even now, even as you're speaking,
that you're speaking itprophetically that there's an
invitation to get in the river,that the river's flowing now.
There's an invitation.
Who is ready to jump in thewaters of unity to see a greater
move of God in this day, inthis hour, in this time and our
(47:42):
timing isn't—what we'reexperiencing now, with our
denominational divisions, is notlike a new problem.
I mean, even in the OldTestament you have 12 tribes
that made up Israel, each ofthem with their own bent, their
own flavor, but you know,corporately they were Israel.
Here I kind of was asking theHoly Spirit like is there a
(48:10):
biblical story concept that kindof encompasses all of these
things?
And just, I mean, I was like 15minutes away from here and he
started talking to me aboutGideon and I wanted to share
this with you, I want to getyour thoughts on this, because I
was just like the Lord juststarted speaking to me and he
was telling me more and more,and I just think that we're at a
Gideon moment right now and Ikind of wanted to share what,
what my thoughts are.
(48:30):
So, you know, you have Gideonand he's unlikely hero right,
he's, you know, hiding, and he'scalled mighty man of valor.
And you have the Midianitesthat are are coming against.
And so he is.
He is there as an unlikely herothat's being called, and he's
(48:51):
asking for confirmation from Godabout whether or not he is
actually being called to dothese things.
And instead of going to histribe I think it's Manasseh he
is asked to come against theseforces.
I think it's the Amalekites andthe Midianites.
But he's asked to gatherdifferent tribes together, right
(49:13):
?
So I think he ends up I have ithere so he goes to Asher,
zebulun and Naphtali and gathersas many people as possible from
different tribes together toface this opposing force which
would, in this time frame andour current modern concept, is
the kingdom of darkness andwe're coming against that with
(49:34):
the kingdom of light.
And so he's going outside ofhis tribe to gather all these
members.
And God ends up telling Gideonlike, oh, there's too many
people, you know, go ahead andsend home everyone that's afraid
, you know.
Like that doesn't want to behere.
And so there's.
Right now there's a largercorporate body, there's a body
(49:55):
of Christ that exists, but a lotof people are fine, and you
know, dandy, to stay in businessas usual and not get involved
in in this, you know, larger warthat we're facing, spiritual
war.
You know, kingdom of darknessversus the kingdom of light.
And you have a lot of peoplewho are just content to just go
(50:17):
back home because maybe they'reafraid, maybe they've got too
many things, you know, focusedon their own life, or they're
just distracted, right?
So you have a large group ofpeople leave.
Then you have God saying, well,there's still too many, and so
he's inviting them down to theriver, so to speak, to drink.
And so he's saying, well, youknow, come down here and we're
(50:40):
going to divide you again.
So maybe there's people outthere listening that, like, yeah
, this concept of unity, I meanit all seems pretty good.
Like I, I can kind of take andglean some things and maybe
apply it to my life.
And those are the people thatare taking water and they're
scooping it and bringing it totheir, their mouth and they're
they're okay with with this ideaand maybe it's sparking
(51:01):
something in them, but they'renot necessarily giving
themselves over to it.
But then you have the 300 menthat shoved their face down and
started drinking with theirtongues from the stream, right,
and I think.
I think that right now we're ata Gideon moment where the people
that are throwing themselvesinto this unity, this stream,
and are lapping up like a dogyou know this concept of what
(51:23):
unity means are is are, they'rethe ones that are going to
change our nation, the world,because those are the people
that are, are headlong into thisconcept.
And then you have, well, whatactually happens after he takes
the 300 men that were all aboutit.
Right, like it was just so cool, the Lord started telling me
(51:43):
like you know, you have arepresentation of all of these
different streams.
Actually, in the allegory ofGideon, you have the bread of
the word tumbling down in thedream and crushing the enemy's
camp.
Then you have the brokenearthen vessels that carry the
torch of the fire of the HolySpirit.
Oh wow, yeah, right, so you haveto.
(52:05):
You know, in our brokennessthat's a beautiful aspect.
And then you have the shofar,the battle cry, the rhema word,
and then you have the shofarrepresented this traditional
ceremonial thing too.
So, like I mean, it's all ofthese beautiful pictures of what
, who, jesus, who God isrevealed in Gideon and what
(52:27):
happens.
It's this revelation of we areoutnumbered, god is too strong,
and you have this decimation ofthese.
It said that the numbers of theMidianites were outnumbering
the sands and the sea, and with300 men, gideon obtains a
victory.
And I feel like we're in thatGideon moment.
(52:47):
I feel like the people thatthrow themselves into unity, who
value each of the streams, whocan see the larger picture of
Christ, those are the peoplethat are going to bring revival.
Pastor Mark (52:59):
Yeah, I love that picture.
Yeah, because all of a suddenyou have a different thing that
defines who you are.
You're not a member of thetribe of Asher or the tribe of
Naphtali or whatever, but you'rethe one who is willing to fight
and not go home because you'reafraid.
Bryan Kelley (53:14):
Yeah.
Pastor Mark (53:14):
You're the one who is not focused on what group you
came from.
But this is the way that Idrink, this is the way I do
things.
It's like a whole differentunderstanding of I'm not with a
Baptist, I'm not with a Catholic, I'm with one who drinks the
water, with somebody who isready to fight, and I'm with
somebody who is just hungry,thirsty for more of God.
Bryan Kelley (53:37):
Oh, that's good yeah.
Pastor Mark (53:38):
So that's, that's a neat picture.
Bryan Kelley (53:39):
Yeah, I just loved , I love that you know kind of
that concept of what it lookslike to change the world and it
starts with a hunger and athirst.
Pastor Mark (53:47):
Yeah.
Bryan Kelley (53:47):
Right, and even I had an episode that I did on
revival with a good friend ofmine, rui, and he talked about.
Revival begins in the humanheart and it catches fire
corporately after it burns andthere's a longing and a
disparity between what you knowis available and what you're
experiencing, and that's whatkicks off revival, and I almost
(54:10):
feel like that's the sameconcept as this.
Once you realize what unitycould mean for world
transformation in the body, itshould give us a hunger, and I
feel like that's what you'rehere to release and why we were
recording this podcast.
It's so that you can releasethe hunger and the thirst that
you're carrying for the largerbody and for those, an
(54:31):
impartation and just kind ofwhatever the Holy Spirit leads
you to pray for and to speak,because I believe that the
(54:53):
people listening out there arelistening by design, because
you've been appointed at such atime as this to listen to this
podcast, to have your heartstirred towards unity, have your
heart stirred towards unity andmaking practical steps, like we
discussed earlier, to actuallybreak down barriers and have
coffee with your neighbor andextend a hand of love, across
(55:15):
you know denominational lines,to somebody who you might not
necessarily agree 100% with, butyou can agree with love and
passion and desire for more ofGod.
So it's been such a funconversation to have with you.
Yeah, it's been good.
Pastor Mark (55:29):
I just wanted to let you know.
Bryan Kelley (55:30):
So I've had a really good time, but I'd love
for you to pray and just kind ofrelease whatever God puts in
your heart.
Pastor Mark (55:37):
Okay, yeah, well, god, just thank you for this
time.
Thank you for raising up peoplelike Brian, who realizes that
his calling is to help to getthe message out and to stir up
people by getting out people'sstories.
(55:57):
Like he said, it's ourtestimonies that are often the
things that end up gettingbehind the barriers in other
people's lives that ourarguments would never get behind
.
So, lord, I pray that you wouldcontinue to just release
testimonies that break throughbarriers, that break through
denominational barriers, thatbreak through just intellectual
(56:20):
arguments, where we can actuallylearn to see that we are all
important streams that need toflow together if we are going to
change the landscape around us.
Help us to, instead ofcriticizing the other streams,
help us to understand them andto love the people in these
(56:41):
other streams, and my prayer isthat whoever is hearing this,
that you would stir up theirheart and that you would give
them a hunger to experience moreof you, and that they would
seek to know you, not by goingdeeper into the one well that
they've been in their whole life, but by inviting in streams
(57:04):
that maybe they don't know muchabout, and whether that's an
individual relationship with acoworker or a neighbor, whether
it's visiting a neighboringchurch just to understand
whether it's doing a Bible study, where they are surrounded by
other people who help them tosee different aspects of you.
I just pray that you would be atwork, calling together your
(57:27):
army and, instead of having usdefine ourselves by our labels
that we've come from, to have uscome together based on our new
identity in Christ, that we areone body, and I just pray that,
as we flow together, that ourcommunities would be transformed
(57:49):
and that places that have beendry, places that haven't been
touched because each of ourstreams have been too shallow
and too narrow, I just pray,lord, that there would be people
touched and lives touched thathaven't been touched for years
or decades or generations,because we finally come together
(58:10):
as one in Jesus name.
Amen.
Bryan Kelley (58:15):
Amen, pastor Mark, it's been an honor and y'all
have a wonderful time out there.
We'll catch you on the nextepisode.
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