November 24, 2023 • 37 mins
In this episode, Dr. Peter Blundell interviews Dr. Mish Seabrook about her life and work.
Dr Mish offers therapy, supervision, training, and consultancy and now adds coaching to her skills in serving others. She is BACP registered & accredited. She has worked in the helping professions since the late 1990s, including roles in prisons, probation, mental health charities and the therapeutic world. She has a special interest in supervision and resilience. She founded the Supervision Institute - where she shares knowledge and offers CPD and support about supervision. Plus, Dr Mish continues with her therapeutic work and alongside this offers therapeutically-informed coaching to women in business/entrepreneurs who 'struggle with the juggle' of their work/home/life commitments.
Mish's Details
Website: www.michelleseabrook.co.uk
Social Media - search for "Dr Mish"
Supervision Institute: www.supervisioninstitute.com
Peter's Details
Website: www.peterblundell.com
Social Media: @drpeterblundell
#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect
Origins of #TherapistsConnect
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Blundell (00:07):
Hello and welcome to another episode of
the #TherapistConnect Podcast.
My name is Dr. Peter Blundelland today I'm delighted to be
interviewing Dr. MichelleSeabrook. Mish is a
psychotherapist, supervisionenthusiast and trainer. And in
today's episode, she'll talkabout her career. And what
brought her to become atherapist in the first place, as
well as her PhD research, whichexplores how we can look after
(00:27):
ourselves in supervision. If youliked this episode, the
Therapists Connect podcastplease leave us a review on your
favorite podcast platform.
Well Mish thanks so much forcoming on the therapists Connect
(00:48):
podcast. It's absolutelywonderful to have you here and
find out a little bit more aboutyou.
Dr Mish Seabrook (00:53):
I'm so glad to be here. I can't I'm very
nervous, though. But I am reallypleased that that we've we've
managed to get together I knowour diaries were like ships in
the night, weren't we? We justcouldn't find anything.
Peter Blundell (01:05):
It was a bit ridiculous. Really? I could do
this. No, I can't do this. I'msorry. I can't make it now.
Like, that's gone on for quitequite a while.
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:13):
But we're here we are. We did it.
Peter Blundell (01:15):
We were determined to make it happen.
And so yeah, I'm glad, I'm gladthat we did make it happen. And
that our listeners can get tofind out a little bit more about
you. And I like the fact thatfor anyone who doesn't know Mish
has got our own podcast, we'vehad multiple podcasts now
actually, haven't you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:29):
Yeah, I'm a bit of a podcast addict, I think
I just love them. I lovelistening to them. And I think
oh, I could do a bit of that.
And then suddenly there I wasdoing it.
Peter Blundell (01:42):
Well it was really successful. But it's nice
to try and turn the lens towardsyou, rather than you been the
host of this podcast
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:50):
It feels a bit weird, I have to say, but I'm
gonna embrace it. I'm up for newexperiences.
Peter Blundell (01:59):
So my first question, I mean, I asked
everybody, this oops, come onthe podcast. Because I think
it's a nice segue into findingout a bit more about you. But
can you tell our listeners alittle bit about why you how you
came to be a therapist in thefirst place? What was it that
drew you into the therapyprofession?
Dr Mish Seabrook (02:17):
That's really hard. I was trying to think of
the different layers to thatquestion. Because I suppose in a
way, I've, I've always beendrawn to people. I think, you
know, when I think back of Iused to work in retail back in,
you know, when my earliest jobs,I think most people have had
that jobs like that. And peoplewould just talk to me, and
(02:41):
they'd be buying clothes. Andthen they just ended up telling
me their whole life story orproblems they were having at the
minute. And I'd always get bittorn off about talking too much.
And I was thinking people make acareer of this and just enjoyed,
be connecting with people. So Ithink I've always found myself
(03:04):
drawn to being curious aboutwhere people are, who they are,
what their story is. So I kindof fell into it. Really, it
wasn't something that was on myradar, I kind of didn't really,
really know that there was suchan amazing world of therapy out
(03:26):
there for a long for a longtime. I knew I knew there were
bits of it. But yeah, I justjust fell in it because I like
people.
Peter Blundell (03:36):
I think that's a really interesting answer.
Because I was thinking about theworld of therapy when you were
talking then actually how manypeople don't really know about
it and what goes on inside thatthere's probably a lot of
misconceptions about whattherapy is and what it isn't.
And kind of feeling like itresonated with you on some
level, but you didn't reallyhave a knowledge or an
understanding of what that mightlook like if you trained or went
(04:00):
down that path.
Dr Mish Seabrook (04:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And I only ended up finding thatout sort of later on after I'd
done a slightly differentcareer. But really, it's always
been a curiosity I've had aboutabout others, and just feeling
at ease with talking to peopleand feeling that connection was
something that felt I supposeeasy to me felt like chatting
(04:24):
was something I was good at, ina way even though I know
obviously therapy is not a chat,but you know, certainly all
through school it was my schoolreports were always that I
talked too much and I'm justinterested in people and and
then here we go it's
Peter Blundell (04:46):
You very rare.
rarely hear that someone gotcareer advice to be a therapist.
You know, during school years.
Yeah. You don't hear that veryoften.
Dr Mish Seabrook (04:55):
No, you're often told don't. Don't talk too
much in you know, Make sure thatyou do something that that feels
very sensible. And in some wayit does feel like it is a very
serious and very sensiblecareer, I suppose. But yeah, it
wasn't really on my radar. So Ijust, I just fell into it
really.
Peter Blundell (05:14):
You mentioned that you've been in retail, but
then you kind of hints thatmaybe having another career as
well. So did you have a coupleof careers before you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (05:23):
Yeah. So I kind of wandered into retail
because I needed a job. And I'mreally grateful for that job
somewhere, like, met my bestmates from there. And the, you
know, the people who know mereally well. And at that point,
now, we know too much about eachother that we can't be, can't
not be friends, because we'vehad too many years together. But
(05:43):
that was really, really goodgrounding for me, but I just
wasn't moved by what was a bestseller, it just didn't, you
know, didn't wasn't a languagethat made much sense to me. And
then I ended up working in alocal prison in the psychology
department, in HMP, Leicester,and it was when they were just
(06:06):
setting up their psychologydepartment, and there was a big
kind of national rollout ofoffending behavior group work
programs. And it was just thestart of that, and I was kind of
there as admin. And again, justkind of fell into that thought
it might be a bit interestingand realize that it was
(06:26):
scratching that itch of workingwith people, even though I
wasn't doing the intensive work,I was kind of around the edges
of it. So I started that there,really, and really, you know,
cut my teeth with being able totalk to anyone, that was a
really good grounding for me.
And I really strangely liked theprison environment, which is a
(06:47):
weird thing to say, but itdoesn't always suit everyone, I
think. So that's where itstarted. And then one of my
colleagues was in probation. Andshe said, 'Oh, there's some some
jobs in, in probation, if you'reinterested, they're going to
roll out all the group workprograms to the community now'.
And I thought, 'Oh, I think Icould do that'. And then just
(07:10):
applied for it and ended updoing the accredited group work
programs in the community. So Iwas an accredited tutor, it was
all very CBT based. And I reallylove doing that job. And again,
there's nothing like honing acraft, if you're having to work
with people who don't want to bethere. There's nothing like
(07:33):
being able to hold, hold thecrowd attention when they're
literally telling you howrubbish you are. But this is a
load of rubbish and, but again,I loved it, I loved it, I loved
the connections I made, the teamI was working with, and I really
felt like I found my groove abit more. And then I decided to
apply to be a probation officerin training. So got onto that
(07:58):
and did two year probationofficer training and, and again,
it was just a real baptism offire, you know, getting on with
some of the kind of hard edge ifthe work it was challenging
work, but just again, that thatkind of finding my groove in it
kind of suited me in a strangeway. And then once I'd qualified
(08:20):
ended up working in anotherprison at HMP, Gartree, which is
a lifer for unit. So hundreds oflifers kind of just dove in
again, back into prison again.
So I kind of went prisoncommunity back into prison. And
really, really enjoyed thatwork. Even though that was
(08:43):
really hard. It was really,obviously people are in there
because of the the nature of thecrimes that they done. And it
was hard edged work, it wasdifficult, the content was
difficult. But I did really likeagain, that prison environment,
there's something about it, thelanguage feels different, the
energy feels different. And Iquite liked being able to walk
(09:07):
away from that there was a clearline from work and home. And
that was, that was really goodfor me. And then as part of
that, I had to go and see asupervisor. So a trained
psychotherapist, because of thematerial that I was exposed to.
I had to go and see thesupervisor didn't really know
what what it what it was aboutwhat what it was for, but she's
(09:31):
a trained psychotherapist, andhighly experienced. And I'd go
and see her once a month just toprocess what was going on and
seeing how I was in the work andhow I was as a person. And then
one day I kind of said how do Isit in your seat? How do I make
that leap? Because she wassaying, you know, you're kind of
(09:51):
good at this. You're good atthis facilitating and part of my
job in, in working with liferswas withdrawing out their life
story so I could write these bigparole reports. And she said,
you know, you're good at good atthere, too. Have you ever
thought about it? And I waslike, Yeah, I kind of want to
sit there, I don't want to sithere. And so it's really she was
(10:15):
a bit of a mentor as well andkind of propelled me to go for
it. And she's been part of mylife since then, really. So that
was, that was a good long timeago now, when we first met. And
then I ended up doing mymaster's in psychodynamic
therapy, and then ended upsetting up you know, did all my
(10:37):
hours and voluntary work and setup in business with with a
colleague of mine who's still,you know, we offer peer support
now, so it's kind of been ajourney that I didn't predict,
I'd be where I am, I was, I'vebeen constantly surprised along
the way really. So that's,that's,
Peter Blundell (10:59):
That's a really interesting path, I think is
interesting, and that you movedfrom kind of group work and then
to individual and also maybeinitially start off with like,
CBT. Yeah, then moving intopsychodynamic and possibly
possibly also also kind ofmodalities as well is that your
therapeutic approach. Now,psychodynamic or do you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (11:17):
No, I wouldn't say it was chuckling at this
because I think I imagined a lotof like, psychodynamic people
would say 'you're notpsychodynamic', I suppose? Yeah,
CBT was a really big influenceon how I approached working with
people. So I had to really learna totally different language and
(11:38):
a way of being in the seat. Thatwas that was more that was
psychodynamic. And I lovedhaving a really good grounding
in that theory. And I've takenthose along with me, you know,
they're the ways that I thinkabout people and think about
dynamics in the work I'm doing.
But I wouldn't describe myselfnow, as psychodynamic. I'd say
I'm more pluralistic, and drawon a number of different
(12:02):
approaches, I suppose. Since Idid my core training, I went and
learned more. And I've kind ofsituate myself as a forever
learner, I'm really curiousabout how other people work and
how it can be relevant to whatI'm doing or relevant to clients
that I'm working with. So Ithink definitely now I tend to
tend to work in a in a way,which draws on a lot of
(12:27):
different influences, which arethere to serve, what the client
and I co create in theirtherapeutic space. So we have a
really kind of in depthconversation about what they
what they would like, whatapproach they might they think
they would like, and thenconstantly come back to that
(12:50):
about whether we're meetingthat. So I feel like I've been
in a really lucky position ofbeing able to draw on things
that come from a wide range ofmodalities, really. And in a way
I've kind of that the minute Ifeel like I'm evolving again,
which won't surprise people whoknow me, well, they'll, they'll
(13:13):
know that I'm always going, 'Oh,what's this? And what's that,
and what's next and what's outthere'. So I feel like I'm
almost doing a full circle, I'mkind of going back and scooping
up a bit more of the CBTelement, and bringing that in a
bit more. And, you know,obviously, this will come out
(13:33):
whenever it comes out. But atthe time of recording, I'm just
about start doing a coachingqualification and bring that in
and bring a more therapeuticallyinformed coaching element
because I kind of want to meetthe need of what I see is out
there. How can I think alwaysthink how can I best serve the
people that are coming to me?
(13:55):
And I feel like this couldreally provide an extra arm of
what I what I offer. So yeah,about to bring that in, which
will be interesting again,
Peter Blundell (14:06):
sound like me, I sounds like you love a course. I
love it. I love learning, but Iwas thinking about when you were
talking like a lot of studentswho start on some of the courses
I teach on and they kind of wantto know, like, get to day one
and they like want to knoweverything. And I'm kind of like
actually, you're gonna get tothe end of the course and
(14:26):
probably no less than when youstarted it opens up. Well, what
about this? What about this andwhat about this, but that's what
I like about being a therapistis that it's just an ongoing
learning opportunity. It's notlike you ever get to the point
where you go oh, I kind of knoweverything I need to know now
and then that's it.
Dr Mish Seabrook (14:43):
Yeah. When do you get to that? I want to meet
the person who is it because I'mlike, I feel like I'm constantly
learning and and I think you'reabsolutely right in the way that
we come to it a piece, come toan end of a bit of learning and
then it In some respects, like,it really highlights to me what
I don't know.
Peter Blundell (15:04):
Yeah.
Dr Mish Seabrook (15:04):
And then I'm like, Oh, well, then I want to
learn a bit more about this anda bit more about that. And I
love learning. I've always lovedlearning.
Peter Blundell (15:11):
But I also liked what you were talking about in
terms of going back to some ofthe stuff that you learn early
on in your career, becausesometimes it's not always it's
not always about something new.
Sometimes, you know, it's aboutgoing, oh, actually looking at
the stuff that you've learned atthe start of your therapy career
and kind of going, how do I seethis differently now that I've
changed over however many years?
Dr Mish Seabrook (15:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Because one of the fundamentalthings that I do in the group
work stuff was about where youare and where you want to be.
And that question has alwaysbeen around for me, I suppose,
in whoever I'm working with, andwhatever approach that I'm
doing, and even though that'squite a CBT based question, and
in some respects, a kind ofcoaching question, which is why
(15:51):
I kind of scooped gone backaround and scooped it back up. I
was still, that's where I, Ialways come back to that bit
about where people are on theirjourney and what it is that they
want that journey to look likeso and however I can best serve
that. Yeah, I'm totally up foradding to what I can bring. Feel
like it's my duty really
Peter Blundell (16:15):
well, talking about adding you also went and
got your PhD, as well, inamongst all this other training
Dr Mish Seabrook (16:26):
It sounds like I've got one of those. Like,
days, that actually means I have48 hours in one day. Yeah, I
did, I went and did mydoctorate. And it was at the
University of Chester, and itwas a professional doctorate. So
there was a taught element toit, which really helped me hone
(16:47):
my, my writing skill and myconfidence as a researcher. So
that really suited me and Ineeded a bit of hand holding,
which and the teaching up thereis absolutely brilliant. I you
know, for anyone's looking,definitely check that out as an
option. But yes, I did. I did myresearch took me four years or
(17:09):
eight years to do. And, and Iloved it, I loved it, because I
could do a really deep dive intoresearch, how supervisee self
care is addressed in clinicalsupervision. Because I'm a, I'm
really passionate about our ownresilience and well being as
practitioners, and also really,really interested in supervision
(17:29):
as well. So it kind of stuck thetwo together really. And I think
it's a big part of our work thatwe we struggle with, for many
reasons. So yeah, I wanted to doa deep dive into that. And but
again, the coming from thatstill makes me think well, I
might know a lot about that onelittle bit. But there's loads. I
(17:51):
don't know.
Peter Blundell (17:52):
So it's interesting, isn't it doing a
piece of research like that, andkind of, you can become like an
expert in this kind of narrowthing. And then you as you
explore you kind of realize allthe things that you don't know
about?
Dr Mish Seabrook (18:03):
Yeah, so much.
I don't know. And I think that'sprobably what fuels my learning,
passion that I constantly think,I don't know stuff. But I love
doing my doctoral research I, Iwas, you know, I'd saved up for
it a lot over the years, I kindof scratched the itch. And
again, this person who, who isstill a mentor and supervisor,
back in the day, had to kind ofnudge me a little I kind of keep
(18:29):
blaming her. So it's all yourfault that but it was her way of
paying it forward, I suppose andsaying, I can see that you could
do this and all the way along.
She's been such a amazingcheerleader all the way along.
Peter Blundell (18:48):
And it's amazing. Sometimes Sometimes
that's maybe the push we need,isn't it? It's somebody of
having a cheerleader, they'resaying, 'Yeah, you can do this.
This is for you.' Yeah,
Dr Mish Seabrook (18:56):
yeah. And I kind of didn't, you know, my
background is, you know, I'm amixed race and from a place of
essentially, we didn't have alot of money when we when we
grew up, my parents weren't bornin this country. So I was coming
from a place where there's manylayers to why I've not felt
(19:19):
particularly good enough to dothings and felt quite othered.
So if you told little Mish thatI'd be not only able to sustain
a career but also to do somedeep research and to be able to
share my knowledge with peopleand to have that passion still
after all these years. I don'tYeah, little Mish wouldnt
(19:41):
believe that 'what are youkidding?'. So it's a really I
kind of feel like particularlywith my doctorate which is why
I'm why I use the doctor bit alot. I feel like it's it's
almost a political statement forme. And also, I like to fly the
flag for other mixed race peoplein the therapeutic world who are
(20:04):
finding their way and I kind ofwant to go 'Yeah, you know what
you can do, you can do more thanwhat other people will think you
could do, and also more thanwhat you what you might think
you can do as well'. So it's,it's, yeah, it's quite a
political thing. That's why Iuse it a lot.
Peter Blundell (20:20):
And acknowledging that achievement
that you've that you've done,you know, and I think I think
you've earned it, why not? Whynot use it?
Dr Mish Seabrook (20:27):
Yeah, yeah.
And, yeah, I just love doing theresearch, I think if I, which
sounds weird, because I knowpeople have really different
relationships with doing anykind of research. And like I
say, it's not something I everthought I could do. So all the
way along, I've gone. I don'tknow if I can do this, but I'm
gonna give it a go. And thenhaving people around me, that's
(20:47):
what helped me the most peoplearound me going, 'Yeah, you can
do this'. And then in the end,going, 'Oh, my God, I think I've
done this thing' was just aweird, still weird for me.
Peter Blundell (21:00):
It's brilliant.
And congratulations, I can youtell us a little bit about what
you found in your research? Likemaybe
Dr Mish Seabrook (21:07):
Wow,
Peter Blundell (21:08):
There will be quite a bit, but maybe some of
the key bits
Dr Mish Seabrook (21:11):
Yeah, I suppose the kind of key
headlines is that thatsupervisees struggle to know how
to bring in self care. They feela lot of shame and guilt. They
don't know what's okay andwhat's not okay. And supervisors
need to be really clear aboutwhat what the kind of rules
(21:35):
aren't, if they was in invertedcommas, around what can be
brought, I think there's lots ofconversations to be had about
the process around what, what itmight feel like to bring in
ourselves into the work. We wantto be seen as competent, and
capable. And we're kind ofsorted. And I feel like we need
(21:56):
to smash some of those myths alittle bit and be vulnerable in
the work that we bring in. Butthere is a lot of permission
giving needed. And also thelanguage, I looked at some of
the language we use around it.
So using metaphor was a reallyinteresting way that felt less
threatening to bring in howsupervisees might want to
address it. And there's lots ofhesitations and tentative
(22:19):
language around talking abouttheir self care, which shows
that it's feels awkward. Andwe're not we're not really sure.
And yeah, I just kind ofencourage conversations around,
like, what would it be like totalk more about yourself? And
what are the things you don'twant to tell me, but we need to
bring in? So yeah, it was I didreally enjoy the whole process.
(22:43):
But I mean, it was hard, slog.
Don't get me wrong, though.
Those those kinds of overChristmas breaks and stuff,
trying to wade through massivebits of data. But, but I did
enjoy it did feel quite selfindulgent at times.
Peter Blundell (23:00):
Yeah. And then that writing up a bit of kind of
making sure that it's it's yeah,all together and it's all
consistent. It's a big, it's abig piece of work. Yeah, it's
interesting, you were talkingabout bringing those bits
ourselves that we don't want tobring all the bits of our
practice that we don't want totalk about. And I think that's
about for me, like safer spacesin supervision, like, like
(23:21):
feeling like your supervisorsnot going to be judgmental, you
know, to kind of openly talkabout some of those things. And
one of the things that you'velaunched is your Supervision
Institute. So I assume that thatties in with some of that, can
you tell our listeners a littlebit about that?
Dr Mish Seabrook (23:38):
Yeah, well, I kind of thought that was a, you
know, my own journey as asupervisor going, who's out
there? How can I connect withother supervisors? And how do we
reflect on what we're doing? Howdo we support each other? How do
we shine a spotlight it is askill it's not I always think
(24:01):
that it's not like a rite ofpassage you don't do therapist
to supervise it, it is an actualskill, to be able to hold the
tension that is there betweenbeing supportive and to evaluate
I feel like there's a constanttension there and to help
someone really reflect on whatthey're doing and challenge
people but also celebrateeverything they're doing it's
(24:23):
just it's just again a differentlanguage a different world that
we have to step into. And sosetting this up was really met a
need in me as most things arewhen we set things up. But I
kind of wanted to just go 'hey,supervisors, what you doing, how
are you doing? Can I can I helpfacilitate a bit of a shared
(24:46):
space?' Can we help each otherreally and just go supervision
is awesome by the way people ifyou don't know what it is, and a
lot of people don't know what itis. So I just wanted to shine a
bit of spotlight so I'm, yeah,it's it's that's developing.
Yes. Developing and I've beenreally pleased with the the
response people have seems towarm to it, which is lovely. And
(25:10):
yeah, I hope to still offerthose those spaces.
Peter Blundell (25:15):
Alright, sounds brilliant. And I'm just
wondering is where can peopleaccess that? Is that in your
website? Or is it?
Dr Mish Seabrook (25:20):
Yeah, yeah. So I have I have a have a website,
specificallysupervisioninstitute.com. But
also people go through my ownwebsite, and there's a, there's
a podcast about the craft ofsupervision. And yeah, I just
like talking about it, sharingideas, and, and drawing on
everyone's expertise, really.
And I think one of the things,the work, one of the best ways I
(25:42):
can serve a community ofsupervisors is by encouraging
people to talk about it andshare the knowledge. So that's,
it's just to facilitate that,really,
Peter Blundell (25:52):
I was wondering, how do you see the wider therapy
community? And how connected doyou feel to other therapists,
Dr Mish Seabrook (25:59):
I feel much more connected than I think I
have ever done. And part of thatis both things like things that
you and Caz set up, you know,the therapist connect hashtag
just totally changed that forme. So thanks. for that. Oh,
yeah, really appreciate that.
That was quite a pivotal moment,in being connected to a wider
(26:22):
group in terms of along the way,I've definitely made connections
along the way. So one of mycolleagues were trained with,
you know, with, with, like,mates and colleagues, you know,
we, we've been making an effortwith that. And I think I've
recognized that I need to makean effort to be connected. And
(26:45):
I've made so many connectionsnow. And it feels great,
actually, I feel much moreconnected than, than I ever
have. And that, that is througha lot of social media as much as
social media can be a bit of adoom scrolling pits, sometimes,
I've actually, it is through thepower of social media, and I'm,
(27:10):
you know, I think for that thesocial element of it has been
revolutionary for me feelingconnected, but I also made sure
I take that connection, and, andgo with it, you know, meet meet
up, have a, have a zoom chat,have a coffee if I can have. So
(27:30):
I think connection is a big abig thing to me, and
particularly in privatepractice, it's can be really
lonely work. So I feel likethat's part of my own self care
to be connected with others, andover lots of different subjects
as well. So um, yeah, I'm reallygrateful, grateful for the use
(27:52):
of social media for that, andparticularly that you picked the
hashtag that you and Caz set up,it's changed everything.
Peter Blundell (28:00):
Thank you.
Really appreciate that. Isuppose one of the things I was
thinking about when you'retalking with, sometimes we see
the external stuff on socialmedia, so people debating or
arguing or having differences ofopinion or whatever. And so it
can maybe create this idea thatthat's all it is. Yeah, maybe
what's hidden is actually somepeople connecting over those
(28:23):
common goals or common ideas orand actually building up
relationships that are alwayspublic, you know, yeah. What
they've been formed through someof those discussions and shared
experiences.
Dr Mish Seabrook (28:37):
Yeah. And doing that on a global scale as
well. So I'm always always upfor having chats with people
because I think, yeah, whywouldn't you want to keep
connected people? It's just,it's what it's really what it's
there for. I think, even thoughthere's there can be a lot of
noise on there. I do have tokind of filter out some of the
(28:59):
noise sometimes and just go forthe connection and support each
other. I think I'm very much forcollaboration and connection
over competition.
Peter Blundell (29:10):
Yeah. What just might be the opposite of what
you're talking about? Nextquestion. But I'm wondering what
do you think is the biggestchallenge that we face in
counseling and psychotherapyright now?
Dr Mish Seabrook (29:25):
Oh, I think there's a few. Okay, I think
there is a challenge around ourexpertise being diluted, in
terms of there are a lot ofpeople who would describe
themselves as having expertiseand being qualified to do this
(29:48):
and I find that a littlejarring. So, experts without
clinical training or having anyidea of opening up something and
not having the skills to knowhow to deal with that I find I
find that really concerning. AndI think there is a dilution off
(30:10):
our amazing skill that we'veworked really hard to get. So
that I find concerning anyway. Ithink that, you know, just I
just think people need to becareful about where they're
getting their advice from, andwho the who they're going to.
And alongside that, I supposeone of the biggest challenges
(30:31):
is, is SCoPEd. I mean, it's abig challenge for people. I have
interestingly mixed feelingsaround it all, in one sense. I
like some of the understandingabout where people are, but I
(30:54):
don't like the 'my way ofworking is better than your
way'. That's not where I sit, itdoesn't make sense for me as a
person, I'm never going tosubscribe to that kind of school
ism of my way I'm better thanyou because of it. That's just
not who I am. That, but it willbe a challenge. You know, when I
see that I see his colleaguestalking about it. I've seen
(31:17):
supervision, we're talking aboutit. I suppose I wonder what it
will change for people who willit change these things for who
is it for in a way? Andfundamentally you know, I was
saying to a colleague recently.
'Are you on the professionalregister? Yes or no?' Can people
work with you and know thatyou're working in a way that
(31:39):
means that you're still on theprofessional register? Okay. So
I think that's going to be areal challenge. I'm really
curious about how it's going toaffect people, and what it will
bring up. Yeah, it's just aninteresting time. There's,
there's a lot of a lot going onaround that, I think. And I have
(32:00):
a sit in a place of curiosity.
But yeah, I suppose I'm notsure. Not sure about it.
Peter Blundell (32:08):
And I think just a follow on what you're saying.
I think up until this point,there's been a lot of
theoretical discussion with newsshared, and now we're kind of
moving towards that. Okay, thisis being implemented. Yeah,
we're actually going to see whatimpacts that that has?
Dr Mish Seabrook (32:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Peter Blundell (32:25):
But challenging in lots of lots of different
ways brings up a lot. But yeah,
Dr Mish Seabrook (32:29):
It really is.
And I think it's really usefulto have open discussions about
that. Because for, there'll besome people that it don't feel
any effects of it. And actually,I think, you know, in
supervision, it might besomething that you really want
to discuss. And as supervisorsget up to date with it, please
supervisors so that, you know,you can talk about it from a
(32:50):
place of understanding. Butyeah, I kind of go, how's this
going to help me serve myclients? And what will it
change? And if it does changeit, so I, I suppose I, I still
kind of I don't know, but I knowit's coming. And I know
something. I feel the ripplesoff it within the work. So there
is an evolution, I suppose off,how we might view ourselves and
(33:17):
how we might view the professionand where we sit in that. And I
think people need to have theirown, again, that our
relationship with it, where am Iwith this? And how might it
affect me and my work? And whatmight I want to change about
things or what might not need tochange about things? And yeah,
(33:37):
interesting discussions,
Peter Blundell (33:43):
And interesting times to come.
Dr Mish Seabrook (33:46):
Yeah, yeah, no doubt.
Peter Blundell (33:48):
So I suppose my last question is just really
just, what else have you gotcoming up, especially if you're
going to be doing your coachingqualification, is going to take
quite a bit of time.
Dr Mish Seabrook (34:02):
And what I'm chuckling at is this, like,
Okay, I'm now going to startdoing this. And I've got loads
of books to read and some precourse prep and stuff like that.
I'm really curious about howI'll be able to bring it in to
the work I want to do. I'mreally there's a particular kind
of, I suppose group of people Iwould want to serve, that I see
(34:28):
a lot I hear a lot that perhapsI might be able to use it in
terms of. So basically, it'seither women entrepreneurs or
women in women in business whoare juggling, who do the juggle,
who are looking for balance whoare juggling having businesses
as well as potential potentialfamily commitments or other life
(34:53):
commitments that they've got,and that's a real group of
people that I'm reallyinterested to see how I can and
help serve that in. In coaching.
I see it a lot, I suppose. Andso I'm trying to I'm trying to
look at best how I can bestserve that, that when I hear of
it a lot. So I suppose I supposewhat's next for me is just
(35:13):
keeping up with all the stuff Ido around supervision, but also
bringing in this element of ourkeeping our resilience going and
how best we continue to lookafter ourselves. So staying with
all the stuff that I'm reallypassionate about, but perhaps
(35:34):
just making it clear aboutcertain certain elements of
that. So yeah, I'm looking I'mlooking forward to it lots to be
done, and I'm ready to learnagain.
Peter Blundell (35:44):
It's exciting.
You've always got so manyprojects on the go. So if people
are interested, they should headover to your website because
there's there's loads of stuffon there, do you want to say it
so that it's there for
Dr Mish Seabrook (35:54):
Yeah, so my own website is
MichelleSeabrook.co.uk. Or youcan find me on I'm seem to be
making move more on Instagram.
And I don't know how I feelabout X or Twitter, whatever
we're calling it. And so yeah,Doctor Mish, just generally look
for that. Sure. I'll pop upsomewhere. But yeah,
MichelleSeabrook.co.uk and alsothe supervision stuff is to
(36:16):
supervisioninstitute.com. ButI'm really happy for
conversations and people toreach out and anything. Yeah, I
suppose I see myself as inservice to others and however
else however I can skill up todo that. I'm always on the
lookout for connection and howwe can collaborate and stuff
like that. I think it's so muchwe can we can join forces on so
(36:39):
I look forward to what's next.
Peter Blundell (36:43):
Absolutely.
Well, I'm glad we've been ableto collaborate on this podcast.
It's been lovely chatting to youagain. And yeah, and stay in
touch and thanks for coming onthe therapist comnnect podcast.
Dr Mish Seabrook (36:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I really
really appreciate it.
Peter Blundell (36:59):
You're very welcome.
If you like this episode of TheTherapist Connect podcast please
leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Hello and welcome to another episode of
the #TherapistConnect Podcast.
My name is Dr. Peter Blundelland today I'm delighted to be
interviewing Dr. MichelleSeabrook. Mish is a
psychotherapist, supervisionenthusiast and trainer. And in
today's episode, she'll talkabout her career. And what
brought her to become atherapist in the first place, as
well as her PhD research, whichexplores how we can look after
(00:27):
ourselves in supervision. If youliked this episode, the
Therapists Connect podcastplease leave us a review on your
favorite podcast platform.
Well Mish thanks so much forcoming on the therapists Connect
(00:48):
podcast. It's absolutelywonderful to have you here and
find out a little bit more aboutyou.
Dr Mish Seabrook (00:53):
I'm so glad to be here. I can't I'm very
nervous, though. But I am reallypleased that that we've we've
managed to get together I knowour diaries were like ships in
the night, weren't we? We justcouldn't find anything.
Peter Blundell (01:05):
It was a bit ridiculous. Really? I could do
this. No, I can't do this. I'msorry. I can't make it now.
Like, that's gone on for quitequite a while.
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:13):
But we're here we are. We did it.
Peter Blundell (01:15):
We were determined to make it happen.
And so yeah, I'm glad, I'm gladthat we did make it happen. And
that our listeners can get tofind out a little bit more about
you. And I like the fact thatfor anyone who doesn't know Mish
has got our own podcast, we'vehad multiple podcasts now
actually, haven't you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:29):
Yeah, I'm a bit of a podcast addict, I think
I just love them. I lovelistening to them. And I think
oh, I could do a bit of that.
And then suddenly there I wasdoing it.
Peter Blundell (01:42):
Well it was really successful. But it's nice
to try and turn the lens towardsyou, rather than you been the
host of this podcast
Dr Mish Seabrook (01:50):
It feels a bit weird, I have to say, but I'm
gonna embrace it. I'm up for newexperiences.
Peter Blundell (01:59):
So my first question, I mean, I asked
everybody, this oops, come onthe podcast. Because I think
it's a nice segue into findingout a bit more about you. But
can you tell our listeners alittle bit about why you how you
came to be a therapist in thefirst place? What was it that
drew you into the therapyprofession?
Dr Mish Seabrook (02:17):
That's really hard. I was trying to think of
the different layers to thatquestion. Because I suppose in a
way, I've, I've always beendrawn to people. I think, you
know, when I think back of Iused to work in retail back in,
you know, when my earliest jobs,I think most people have had
that jobs like that. And peoplewould just talk to me, and
(02:41):
they'd be buying clothes. Andthen they just ended up telling
me their whole life story orproblems they were having at the
minute. And I'd always get bittorn off about talking too much.
And I was thinking people make acareer of this and just enjoyed,
be connecting with people. So Ithink I've always found myself
(03:04):
drawn to being curious aboutwhere people are, who they are,
what their story is. So I kindof fell into it. Really, it
wasn't something that was on myradar, I kind of didn't really,
really know that there was suchan amazing world of therapy out
(03:26):
there for a long for a longtime. I knew I knew there were
bits of it. But yeah, I justjust fell in it because I like
people.
Peter Blundell (03:36):
I think that's a really interesting answer.
Because I was thinking about theworld of therapy when you were
talking then actually how manypeople don't really know about
it and what goes on inside thatthere's probably a lot of
misconceptions about whattherapy is and what it isn't.
And kind of feeling like itresonated with you on some
level, but you didn't reallyhave a knowledge or an
understanding of what that mightlook like if you trained or went
(04:00):
down that path.
Dr Mish Seabrook (04:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And I only ended up finding thatout sort of later on after I'd
done a slightly differentcareer. But really, it's always
been a curiosity I've had aboutabout others, and just feeling
at ease with talking to peopleand feeling that connection was
something that felt I supposeeasy to me felt like chatting
(04:24):
was something I was good at, ina way even though I know
obviously therapy is not a chat,but you know, certainly all
through school it was my schoolreports were always that I
talked too much and I'm justinterested in people and and
then here we go it's
Peter Blundell (04:46):
You very rare.
rarely hear that someone gotcareer advice to be a therapist.
You know, during school years.
Yeah. You don't hear that veryoften.
Dr Mish Seabrook (04:55):
No, you're often told don't. Don't talk too
much in you know, Make sure thatyou do something that that feels
very sensible. And in some wayit does feel like it is a very
serious and very sensiblecareer, I suppose. But yeah, it
wasn't really on my radar. So Ijust, I just fell into it
really.
Peter Blundell (05:14):
You mentioned that you've been in retail, but
then you kind of hints thatmaybe having another career as
well. So did you have a coupleof careers before you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (05:23):
Yeah. So I kind of wandered into retail
because I needed a job. And I'mreally grateful for that job
somewhere, like, met my bestmates from there. And the, you
know, the people who know mereally well. And at that point,
now, we know too much about eachother that we can't be, can't
not be friends, because we'vehad too many years together. But
(05:43):
that was really, really goodgrounding for me, but I just
wasn't moved by what was a bestseller, it just didn't, you
know, didn't wasn't a languagethat made much sense to me. And
then I ended up working in alocal prison in the psychology
department, in HMP, Leicester,and it was when they were just
(06:06):
setting up their psychologydepartment, and there was a big
kind of national rollout ofoffending behavior group work
programs. And it was just thestart of that, and I was kind of
there as admin. And again, justkind of fell into that thought
it might be a bit interestingand realize that it was
(06:26):
scratching that itch of workingwith people, even though I
wasn't doing the intensive work,I was kind of around the edges
of it. So I started that there,really, and really, you know,
cut my teeth with being able totalk to anyone, that was a
really good grounding for me.
And I really strangely liked theprison environment, which is a
(06:47):
weird thing to say, but itdoesn't always suit everyone, I
think. So that's where itstarted. And then one of my
colleagues was in probation. Andshe said, 'Oh, there's some some
jobs in, in probation, if you'reinterested, they're going to
roll out all the group workprograms to the community now'.
And I thought, 'Oh, I think Icould do that'. And then just
(07:10):
applied for it and ended updoing the accredited group work
programs in the community. So Iwas an accredited tutor, it was
all very CBT based. And I reallylove doing that job. And again,
there's nothing like honing acraft, if you're having to work
with people who don't want to bethere. There's nothing like
(07:33):
being able to hold, hold thecrowd attention when they're
literally telling you howrubbish you are. But this is a
load of rubbish and, but again,I loved it, I loved it, I loved
the connections I made, the teamI was working with, and I really
felt like I found my groove abit more. And then I decided to
apply to be a probation officerin training. So got onto that
(07:58):
and did two year probationofficer training and, and again,
it was just a real baptism offire, you know, getting on with
some of the kind of hard edge ifthe work it was challenging
work, but just again, that thatkind of finding my groove in it
kind of suited me in a strangeway. And then once I'd qualified
(08:20):
ended up working in anotherprison at HMP, Gartree, which is
a lifer for unit. So hundreds oflifers kind of just dove in
again, back into prison again.
So I kind of went prisoncommunity back into prison. And
really, really enjoyed thatwork. Even though that was
(08:43):
really hard. It was really,obviously people are in there
because of the the nature of thecrimes that they done. And it
was hard edged work, it wasdifficult, the content was
difficult. But I did really likeagain, that prison environment,
there's something about it, thelanguage feels different, the
energy feels different. And Iquite liked being able to walk
(09:07):
away from that there was a clearline from work and home. And
that was, that was really goodfor me. And then as part of
that, I had to go and see asupervisor. So a trained
psychotherapist, because of thematerial that I was exposed to.
I had to go and see thesupervisor didn't really know
what what it what it was aboutwhat what it was for, but she's
(09:31):
a trained psychotherapist, andhighly experienced. And I'd go
and see her once a month just toprocess what was going on and
seeing how I was in the work andhow I was as a person. And then
one day I kind of said how do Isit in your seat? How do I make
that leap? Because she wassaying, you know, you're kind of
(09:51):
good at this. You're good atthis facilitating and part of my
job in, in working with liferswas withdrawing out their life
story so I could write these bigparole reports. And she said,
you know, you're good at good atthere, too. Have you ever
thought about it? And I waslike, Yeah, I kind of want to
sit there, I don't want to sithere. And so it's really she was
(10:15):
a bit of a mentor as well andkind of propelled me to go for
it. And she's been part of mylife since then, really. So that
was, that was a good long timeago now, when we first met. And
then I ended up doing mymaster's in psychodynamic
therapy, and then ended upsetting up you know, did all my
(10:37):
hours and voluntary work and setup in business with with a
colleague of mine who's still,you know, we offer peer support
now, so it's kind of been ajourney that I didn't predict,
I'd be where I am, I was, I'vebeen constantly surprised along
the way really. So that's,that's,
Peter Blundell (10:59):
That's a really interesting path, I think is
interesting, and that you movedfrom kind of group work and then
to individual and also maybeinitially start off with like,
CBT. Yeah, then moving intopsychodynamic and possibly
possibly also also kind ofmodalities as well is that your
therapeutic approach. Now,psychodynamic or do you?
Dr Mish Seabrook (11:17):
No, I wouldn't say it was chuckling at this
because I think I imagined a lotof like, psychodynamic people
would say 'you're notpsychodynamic', I suppose? Yeah,
CBT was a really big influenceon how I approached working with
people. So I had to really learna totally different language and
(11:38):
a way of being in the seat. Thatwas that was more that was
psychodynamic. And I lovedhaving a really good grounding
in that theory. And I've takenthose along with me, you know,
they're the ways that I thinkabout people and think about
dynamics in the work I'm doing.
But I wouldn't describe myselfnow, as psychodynamic. I'd say
I'm more pluralistic, and drawon a number of different
(12:02):
approaches, I suppose. Since Idid my core training, I went and
learned more. And I've kind ofsituate myself as a forever
learner, I'm really curiousabout how other people work and
how it can be relevant to whatI'm doing or relevant to clients
that I'm working with. So Ithink definitely now I tend to
tend to work in a in a way,which draws on a lot of
(12:27):
different influences, which arethere to serve, what the client
and I co create in theirtherapeutic space. So we have a
really kind of in depthconversation about what they
what they would like, whatapproach they might they think
they would like, and thenconstantly come back to that
(12:50):
about whether we're meetingthat. So I feel like I've been
in a really lucky position ofbeing able to draw on things
that come from a wide range ofmodalities, really. And in a way
I've kind of that the minute Ifeel like I'm evolving again,
which won't surprise people whoknow me, well, they'll, they'll
(13:13):
know that I'm always going, 'Oh,what's this? And what's that,
and what's next and what's outthere'. So I feel like I'm
almost doing a full circle, I'mkind of going back and scooping
up a bit more of the CBTelement, and bringing that in a
bit more. And, you know,obviously, this will come out
(13:33):
whenever it comes out. But atthe time of recording, I'm just
about start doing a coachingqualification and bring that in
and bring a more therapeuticallyinformed coaching element
because I kind of want to meetthe need of what I see is out
there. How can I think alwaysthink how can I best serve the
people that are coming to me?
(13:55):
And I feel like this couldreally provide an extra arm of
what I what I offer. So yeah,about to bring that in, which
will be interesting again,
Peter Blundell (14:06):
sound like me, I sounds like you love a course. I
love it. I love learning, but Iwas thinking about when you were
talking like a lot of studentswho start on some of the courses
I teach on and they kind of wantto know, like, get to day one
and they like want to knoweverything. And I'm kind of like
actually, you're gonna get tothe end of the course and
(14:26):
probably no less than when youstarted it opens up. Well, what
about this? What about this andwhat about this, but that's what
I like about being a therapistis that it's just an ongoing
learning opportunity. It's notlike you ever get to the point
where you go oh, I kind of knoweverything I need to know now
and then that's it.
Dr Mish Seabrook (14:43):
Yeah. When do you get to that? I want to meet
the person who is it because I'mlike, I feel like I'm constantly
learning and and I think you'reabsolutely right in the way that
we come to it a piece, come toan end of a bit of learning and
then it In some respects, like,it really highlights to me what
I don't know.
Peter Blundell (15:04):
Yeah.
Dr Mish Seabrook (15:04):
And then I'm like, Oh, well, then I want to
learn a bit more about this anda bit more about that. And I
love learning. I've always lovedlearning.
Peter Blundell (15:11):
But I also liked what you were talking about in
terms of going back to some ofthe stuff that you learn early
on in your career, becausesometimes it's not always it's
not always about something new.
Sometimes, you know, it's aboutgoing, oh, actually looking at
the stuff that you've learned atthe start of your therapy career
and kind of going, how do I seethis differently now that I've
changed over however many years?
Dr Mish Seabrook (15:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Because one of the fundamentalthings that I do in the group
work stuff was about where youare and where you want to be.
And that question has alwaysbeen around for me, I suppose,
in whoever I'm working with, andwhatever approach that I'm
doing, and even though that'squite a CBT based question, and
in some respects, a kind ofcoaching question, which is why
(15:51):
I kind of scooped gone backaround and scooped it back up. I
was still, that's where I, Ialways come back to that bit
about where people are on theirjourney and what it is that they
want that journey to look likeso and however I can best serve
that. Yeah, I'm totally up foradding to what I can bring. Feel
like it's my duty really
Peter Blundell (16:15):
well, talking about adding you also went and
got your PhD, as well, inamongst all this other training
Dr Mish Seabrook (16:26):
It sounds like I've got one of those. Like,
days, that actually means I have48 hours in one day. Yeah, I
did, I went and did mydoctorate. And it was at the
University of Chester, and itwas a professional doctorate. So
there was a taught element toit, which really helped me hone
(16:47):
my, my writing skill and myconfidence as a researcher. So
that really suited me and Ineeded a bit of hand holding,
which and the teaching up thereis absolutely brilliant. I you
know, for anyone's looking,definitely check that out as an
option. But yes, I did. I did myresearch took me four years or
(17:09):
eight years to do. And, and Iloved it, I loved it, because I
could do a really deep dive intoresearch, how supervisee self
care is addressed in clinicalsupervision. Because I'm a, I'm
really passionate about our ownresilience and well being as
practitioners, and also really,really interested in supervision
(17:29):
as well. So it kind of stuck thetwo together really. And I think
it's a big part of our work thatwe we struggle with, for many
reasons. So yeah, I wanted to doa deep dive into that. And but
again, the coming from thatstill makes me think well, I
might know a lot about that onelittle bit. But there's loads. I
(17:51):
don't know.
Peter Blundell (17:52):
So it's interesting, isn't it doing a
piece of research like that, andkind of, you can become like an
expert in this kind of narrowthing. And then you as you
explore you kind of realize allthe things that you don't know
about?
Dr Mish Seabrook (18:03):
Yeah, so much.
I don't know. And I think that'sprobably what fuels my learning,
passion that I constantly think,I don't know stuff. But I love
doing my doctoral research I, Iwas, you know, I'd saved up for
it a lot over the years, I kindof scratched the itch. And
again, this person who, who isstill a mentor and supervisor,
back in the day, had to kind ofnudge me a little I kind of keep
(18:29):
blaming her. So it's all yourfault that but it was her way of
paying it forward, I suppose andsaying, I can see that you could
do this and all the way along.
She's been such a amazingcheerleader all the way along.
Peter Blundell (18:48):
And it's amazing. Sometimes Sometimes
that's maybe the push we need,isn't it? It's somebody of
having a cheerleader, they'resaying, 'Yeah, you can do this.
This is for you.' Yeah,
Dr Mish Seabrook (18:56):
yeah. And I kind of didn't, you know, my
background is, you know, I'm amixed race and from a place of
essentially, we didn't have alot of money when we when we
grew up, my parents weren't bornin this country. So I was coming
from a place where there's manylayers to why I've not felt
(19:19):
particularly good enough to dothings and felt quite othered.
So if you told little Mish thatI'd be not only able to sustain
a career but also to do somedeep research and to be able to
share my knowledge with peopleand to have that passion still
after all these years. I don'tYeah, little Mish wouldnt
(19:41):
believe that 'what are youkidding?'. So it's a really I
kind of feel like particularlywith my doctorate which is why
I'm why I use the doctor bit alot. I feel like it's it's
almost a political statement forme. And also, I like to fly the
flag for other mixed race peoplein the therapeutic world who are
(20:04):
finding their way and I kind ofwant to go 'Yeah, you know what
you can do, you can do more thanwhat other people will think you
could do, and also more thanwhat you what you might think
you can do as well'. So it's,it's, yeah, it's quite a
political thing. That's why Iuse it a lot.
Peter Blundell (20:20):
And acknowledging that achievement
that you've that you've done,you know, and I think I think
you've earned it, why not? Whynot use it?
Dr Mish Seabrook (20:27):
Yeah, yeah.
And, yeah, I just love doing theresearch, I think if I, which
sounds weird, because I knowpeople have really different
relationships with doing anykind of research. And like I
say, it's not something I everthought I could do. So all the
way along, I've gone. I don'tknow if I can do this, but I'm
gonna give it a go. And thenhaving people around me, that's
(20:47):
what helped me the most peoplearound me going, 'Yeah, you can
do this'. And then in the end,going, 'Oh, my God, I think I've
done this thing' was just aweird, still weird for me.
Peter Blundell (21:00):
It's brilliant.
And congratulations, I can youtell us a little bit about what
you found in your research? Likemaybe
Dr Mish Seabrook (21:07):
Wow,
Peter Blundell (21:08):
There will be quite a bit, but maybe some of
the key bits
Dr Mish Seabrook (21:11):
Yeah, I suppose the kind of key
headlines is that thatsupervisees struggle to know how
to bring in self care. They feela lot of shame and guilt. They
don't know what's okay andwhat's not okay. And supervisors
need to be really clear aboutwhat what the kind of rules
(21:35):
aren't, if they was in invertedcommas, around what can be
brought, I think there's lots ofconversations to be had about
the process around what, what itmight feel like to bring in
ourselves into the work. We wantto be seen as competent, and
capable. And we're kind ofsorted. And I feel like we need
(21:56):
to smash some of those myths alittle bit and be vulnerable in
the work that we bring in. Butthere is a lot of permission
giving needed. And also thelanguage, I looked at some of
the language we use around it.
So using metaphor was a reallyinteresting way that felt less
threatening to bring in howsupervisees might want to
address it. And there's lots ofhesitations and tentative
(22:19):
language around talking abouttheir self care, which shows
that it's feels awkward. Andwe're not we're not really sure.
And yeah, I just kind ofencourage conversations around,
like, what would it be like totalk more about yourself? And
what are the things you don'twant to tell me, but we need to
bring in? So yeah, it was I didreally enjoy the whole process.
(22:43):
But I mean, it was hard, slog.
Don't get me wrong, though.
Those those kinds of overChristmas breaks and stuff,
trying to wade through massivebits of data. But, but I did
enjoy it did feel quite selfindulgent at times.
Peter Blundell (23:00):
Yeah. And then that writing up a bit of kind of
making sure that it's it's yeah,all together and it's all
consistent. It's a big, it's abig piece of work. Yeah, it's
interesting, you were talkingabout bringing those bits
ourselves that we don't want tobring all the bits of our
practice that we don't want totalk about. And I think that's
about for me, like safer spacesin supervision, like, like
(23:21):
feeling like your supervisorsnot going to be judgmental, you
know, to kind of openly talkabout some of those things. And
one of the things that you'velaunched is your Supervision
Institute. So I assume that thatties in with some of that, can
you tell our listeners a littlebit about that?
Dr Mish Seabrook (23:38):
Yeah, well, I kind of thought that was a, you
know, my own journey as asupervisor going, who's out
there? How can I connect withother supervisors? And how do we
reflect on what we're doing? Howdo we support each other? How do
we shine a spotlight it is askill it's not I always think
(24:01):
that it's not like a rite ofpassage you don't do therapist
to supervise it, it is an actualskill, to be able to hold the
tension that is there betweenbeing supportive and to evaluate
I feel like there's a constanttension there and to help
someone really reflect on whatthey're doing and challenge
people but also celebrateeverything they're doing it's
(24:23):
just it's just again a differentlanguage a different world that
we have to step into. And sosetting this up was really met a
need in me as most things arewhen we set things up. But I
kind of wanted to just go 'hey,supervisors, what you doing, how
are you doing? Can I can I helpfacilitate a bit of a shared
(24:46):
space?' Can we help each otherreally and just go supervision
is awesome by the way people ifyou don't know what it is, and a
lot of people don't know what itis. So I just wanted to shine a
bit of spotlight so I'm, yeah,it's it's that's developing.
Yes. Developing and I've beenreally pleased with the the
response people have seems towarm to it, which is lovely. And
(25:10):
yeah, I hope to still offerthose those spaces.
Peter Blundell (25:15):
Alright, sounds brilliant. And I'm just
wondering is where can peopleaccess that? Is that in your
website? Or is it?
Dr Mish Seabrook (25:20):
Yeah, yeah. So I have I have a have a website,
specificallysupervisioninstitute.com. But
also people go through my ownwebsite, and there's a, there's
a podcast about the craft ofsupervision. And yeah, I just
like talking about it, sharingideas, and, and drawing on
everyone's expertise, really.
And I think one of the things,the work, one of the best ways I
(25:42):
can serve a community ofsupervisors is by encouraging
people to talk about it andshare the knowledge. So that's,
it's just to facilitate that,really,
Peter Blundell (25:52):
I was wondering, how do you see the wider therapy
community? And how connected doyou feel to other therapists,
Dr Mish Seabrook (25:59):
I feel much more connected than I think I
have ever done. And part of thatis both things like things that
you and Caz set up, you know,the therapist connect hashtag
just totally changed that forme. So thanks. for that. Oh,
yeah, really appreciate that.
That was quite a pivotal moment,in being connected to a wider
(26:22):
group in terms of along the way,I've definitely made connections
along the way. So one of mycolleagues were trained with,
you know, with, with, like,mates and colleagues, you know,
we, we've been making an effortwith that. And I think I've
recognized that I need to makean effort to be connected. And
(26:45):
I've made so many connectionsnow. And it feels great,
actually, I feel much moreconnected than, than I ever
have. And that, that is througha lot of social media as much as
social media can be a bit of adoom scrolling pits, sometimes,
I've actually, it is through thepower of social media, and I'm,
(27:10):
you know, I think for that thesocial element of it has been
revolutionary for me feelingconnected, but I also made sure
I take that connection, and, andgo with it, you know, meet meet
up, have a, have a zoom chat,have a coffee if I can have. So
(27:30):
I think connection is a big abig thing to me, and
particularly in privatepractice, it's can be really
lonely work. So I feel likethat's part of my own self care
to be connected with others, andover lots of different subjects
as well. So um, yeah, I'm reallygrateful, grateful for the use
(27:52):
of social media for that, andparticularly that you picked the
hashtag that you and Caz set up,it's changed everything.
Peter Blundell (28:00):
Thank you.
Really appreciate that. Isuppose one of the things I was
thinking about when you'retalking with, sometimes we see
the external stuff on socialmedia, so people debating or
arguing or having differences ofopinion or whatever. And so it
can maybe create this idea thatthat's all it is. Yeah, maybe
what's hidden is actually somepeople connecting over those
(28:23):
common goals or common ideas orand actually building up
relationships that are alwayspublic, you know, yeah. What
they've been formed through someof those discussions and shared
experiences.
Dr Mish Seabrook (28:37):
Yeah. And doing that on a global scale as
well. So I'm always always upfor having chats with people
because I think, yeah, whywouldn't you want to keep
connected people? It's just,it's what it's really what it's
there for. I think, even thoughthere's there can be a lot of
noise on there. I do have tokind of filter out some of the
(28:59):
noise sometimes and just go forthe connection and support each
other. I think I'm very much forcollaboration and connection
over competition.
Peter Blundell (29:10):
Yeah. What just might be the opposite of what
you're talking about? Nextquestion. But I'm wondering what
do you think is the biggestchallenge that we face in
counseling and psychotherapyright now?
Dr Mish Seabrook (29:25):
Oh, I think there's a few. Okay, I think
there is a challenge around ourexpertise being diluted, in
terms of there are a lot ofpeople who would describe
themselves as having expertiseand being qualified to do this
(29:48):
and I find that a littlejarring. So, experts without
clinical training or having anyidea of opening up something and
not having the skills to knowhow to deal with that I find I
find that really concerning. AndI think there is a dilution off
(30:10):
our amazing skill that we'veworked really hard to get. So
that I find concerning anyway. Ithink that, you know, just I
just think people need to becareful about where they're
getting their advice from, andwho the who they're going to.
And alongside that, I supposeone of the biggest challenges
(30:31):
is, is SCoPEd. I mean, it's abig challenge for people. I have
interestingly mixed feelingsaround it all, in one sense. I
like some of the understandingabout where people are, but I
(30:54):
don't like the 'my way ofworking is better than your
way'. That's not where I sit, itdoesn't make sense for me as a
person, I'm never going tosubscribe to that kind of school
ism of my way I'm better thanyou because of it. That's just
not who I am. That, but it willbe a challenge. You know, when I
see that I see his colleaguestalking about it. I've seen
(31:17):
supervision, we're talking aboutit. I suppose I wonder what it
will change for people who willit change these things for who
is it for in a way? Andfundamentally you know, I was
saying to a colleague recently.
'Are you on the professionalregister? Yes or no?' Can people
work with you and know thatyou're working in a way that
(31:39):
means that you're still on theprofessional register? Okay. So
I think that's going to be areal challenge. I'm really
curious about how it's going toaffect people, and what it will
bring up. Yeah, it's just aninteresting time. There's,
there's a lot of a lot going onaround that, I think. And I have
(32:00):
a sit in a place of curiosity.
But yeah, I suppose I'm notsure. Not sure about it.
Peter Blundell (32:08):
And I think just a follow on what you're saying.
I think up until this point,there's been a lot of
theoretical discussion with newsshared, and now we're kind of
moving towards that. Okay, thisis being implemented. Yeah,
we're actually going to see whatimpacts that that has?
Dr Mish Seabrook (32:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Peter Blundell (32:25):
But challenging in lots of lots of different
ways brings up a lot. But yeah,
Dr Mish Seabrook (32:29):
It really is.
And I think it's really usefulto have open discussions about
that. Because for, there'll besome people that it don't feel
any effects of it. And actually,I think, you know, in
supervision, it might besomething that you really want
to discuss. And as supervisorsget up to date with it, please
supervisors so that, you know,you can talk about it from a
(32:50):
place of understanding. Butyeah, I kind of go, how's this
going to help me serve myclients? And what will it
change? And if it does changeit, so I, I suppose I, I still
kind of I don't know, but I knowit's coming. And I know
something. I feel the ripplesoff it within the work. So there
is an evolution, I suppose off,how we might view ourselves and
(33:17):
how we might view the professionand where we sit in that. And I
think people need to have theirown, again, that our
relationship with it, where am Iwith this? And how might it
affect me and my work? And whatmight I want to change about
things or what might not need tochange about things? And yeah,
(33:37):
interesting discussions,
Peter Blundell (33:43):
And interesting times to come.
Dr Mish Seabrook (33:46):
Yeah, yeah, no doubt.
Peter Blundell (33:48):
So I suppose my last question is just really
just, what else have you gotcoming up, especially if you're
going to be doing your coachingqualification, is going to take
quite a bit of time.
Dr Mish Seabrook (34:02):
And what I'm chuckling at is this, like,
Okay, I'm now going to startdoing this. And I've got loads
of books to read and some precourse prep and stuff like that.
I'm really curious about howI'll be able to bring it in to
the work I want to do. I'mreally there's a particular kind
of, I suppose group of people Iwould want to serve, that I see
(34:28):
a lot I hear a lot that perhapsI might be able to use it in
terms of. So basically, it'seither women entrepreneurs or
women in women in business whoare juggling, who do the juggle,
who are looking for balance whoare juggling having businesses
as well as potential potentialfamily commitments or other life
(34:53):
commitments that they've got,and that's a real group of
people that I'm reallyinterested to see how I can and
help serve that in. In coaching.
I see it a lot, I suppose. Andso I'm trying to I'm trying to
look at best how I can bestserve that, that when I hear of
it a lot. So I suppose I supposewhat's next for me is just
(35:13):
keeping up with all the stuff Ido around supervision, but also
bringing in this element of ourkeeping our resilience going and
how best we continue to lookafter ourselves. So staying with
all the stuff that I'm reallypassionate about, but perhaps
(35:34):
just making it clear aboutcertain certain elements of
that. So yeah, I'm looking I'mlooking forward to it lots to be
done, and I'm ready to learnagain.
Peter Blundell (35:44):
It's exciting.
You've always got so manyprojects on the go. So if people
are interested, they should headover to your website because
there's there's loads of stuffon there, do you want to say it
so that it's there for
Dr Mish Seabrook (35:54):
Yeah, so my own website is
MichelleSeabrook.co.uk. Or youcan find me on I'm seem to be
making move more on Instagram.
And I don't know how I feelabout X or Twitter, whatever
we're calling it. And so yeah,Doctor Mish, just generally look
for that. Sure. I'll pop upsomewhere. But yeah,
MichelleSeabrook.co.uk and alsothe supervision stuff is to
(36:16):
supervisioninstitute.com. ButI'm really happy for
conversations and people toreach out and anything. Yeah, I
suppose I see myself as inservice to others and however
else however I can skill up todo that. I'm always on the
lookout for connection and howwe can collaborate and stuff
like that. I think it's so muchwe can we can join forces on so
(36:39):
I look forward to what's next.
Peter Blundell (36:43):
Absolutely.
Well, I'm glad we've been ableto collaborate on this podcast.
It's been lovely chatting to youagain. And yeah, and stay in
touch and thanks for coming onthe therapist comnnect podcast.
Dr Mish Seabrook (36:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I really
really appreciate it.
Peter Blundell (36:59):
You're very welcome.
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