July 15, 2025 • 25 mins
@drpeterblundell interviews Mandy Gosling, she is a UKCP and MBACP accredited psychotherapist, researcher and author, specialising in long-term grief experienced by adults who were bereaved as children.
As a bereaved child herself, aged 9, Mandy completed a MA Research in 2016 to understand the long term impact of childhood bereavement. ABC Grief – Adults Bereaved as Children, was formed from this research to share knowledge and resources for individuals, and professionals, in this specialist area of bereavement and grief. Her central focus of private practice is working with individuals who experienced childhood loss and she runs workshops in London. She is the Clinical Lead at It’s Time Charity who support young adults with the experience of parental loss, and facilitates their group therapy.
Mandy publicly speaks on this topic and is a contributing author in the anthology entitled My Mother’s Story – Gone Too Soon. She has been published in articles for BACP Therapy Today magazine, and UKCP New Psychotherapist magazine, highlighting the long-term impact of childhood bereavement. She has been interviewed on BBC Woman's Hour and has contributed to various podcasts to bring awareness to this topic. Mandy is part of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Childhood Bereavement with the charity Winston’s Wish, and is a subject matter expert for At A Loss Charity on adults bereaved as children. She is part of their All-Party Parliamentary Group – Grief Support and the Impact of Death on Society.
She is currently undertaking her PhD at The University of Humanistic Studies in Utrecht, Netherlands, under the guidance of Prof. dr. Geert Smid. This investigation is to add to the scientific knowledge of long-term grief in adults who were bereaved as children.
For more information visit www.abcgrief.co.uk or www.mandygosling.co.uk and social media platforms LinkedIn Facebook Instagram
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Therapist Connect
podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and in thismonth's episode I'm interviewing
psychotherapist Mandy Gosling.
Mandy is an integrativepsychotherapist drawing on
several modalities, includingpsychodynamic, humanistic,
existential, and transpersonal.
Mandy has a wide variety ofinterests, which include
(00:21):
unresolved childhood grief,neuroscience, trauma, and
childhood development, and wetouch on a variety of these
throughout this interview.
It was an absolute pleasure tointerview Mandy, and if you're
interested in her work, we'regonna leave you some of her
details in the show notes tothis episode.
If you enjoyed this episode ofThe Therapist Connect podcast,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform as it
(00:44):
really helps us get the word outthere about the podcast.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:47):
Hi, Mandy.
Mandy Gosling (00:49):
Hi Peter.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:49):
What made you become a therapist in the first
place?
Mandy Gosling (00:52):
What made me become a therapist, I think it's
a really interesting story andis that I don't think ISI didn't
really s it wasn't like a, oh,this is what I'm going to do.
It was never a I need to becomea therapist.
I'd always been interested in.
(01:12):
Human behavior and I thinkreally on reflection, I was
probably interested in my ownhuman behavior.
Sometimes for the better andsometimes mostly not.
Because I came from, being abereaved child.
My mother died when I was nine.
And with that came obviously alot of complexities.
My father didn't stay around.
(01:33):
I was then, went to live with mygrandmother when I was 18, and
then she died when I was 21.
So really, I had threesuccessive losses, even though
they were all different by thetime I was 21.
I think I often say, I wascrashing through life really,
and, but I wanted to, there wasalways a desire to understand,
(01:55):
why was I struggling in this andwhy was I struggling in that?
And I, I never really set out tobecome a therapist.
So my children had got to apoint, and, I was in my mid
forties and I thought.
Is this it?
Is this what I'm gonna do?
Is this the meaning of life?
The question that comes in ourforties, who am I?
And then I thought I'd alwaysbeen interesting and I wonder,
(02:18):
so what I did was I signed upfor a years' foundation
counseling course, and then.
The person running it hadtrained at a place in London,
the Center for Counseling andPsychotherapy Education.
And I thought, oh, I quite likedthat.
It was interesting.
And I literally went with buyingfaith.
I didn't actually look anywhereelse'cause I liked what she did
(02:39):
in the initial training.
So then I signed up for fouryears psychotherapy training
there.
And then.
Either I had to do a projectweekend or I had to do a
master's.
And for a bereaved child whoseeducation was compromised in a
way I never really believed thatI could.
(03:01):
I.
Do anything that was stretchingin that way, I'd always felt,
not very clever.
And it wasn't that I wasn't veryclever actually before, when I
was a young child and my motherwas alive, I was actually quite
a bright young child.
But when she died, she was thesort of part of my life that was
encouraging in that field.
And then that disappeared too.
(03:21):
So I think, my confidence inthat space disappeared at that
time as well.
Thinking I dunno what to do andwhen you're not supported as a
child, to be more it carriesthrough into your adult life.
I had a really good friend whoencouraged me.
He said, you can do the Masters.
And I questioned myself and hewent I'm doing it so you can do
it.
So that's literally how it cameabout.
(03:42):
And then I was really wellsupported by the team of people
who were running the masters andmy own therapist.
And yeah that's how it, that'show it came about.
And then I did another year'straining as a relationship
therapist because what Iunderstood was.
People with early life loss hada lot of challenges in
relationships, so it all justhappened and unfolded.
(04:06):
Weave together.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:07):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (04:07):
And just continued, I had no and I think
I've now learned, through my owntraining is just, just follow
what unfolds and, stay in yourlane and keep on your path and
see what happens.
I think sometimes when you forceit doesn't really happen and
it's been a very organicprocess.
(04:28):
And so after I did, after I didmy master's, I realized, so my
master's was understanding thelong-term impact of parental
bereavement from a psychologicaland spiritual perspective.
So then I founded ABC Grief,which is a website, which is a
resource website for people whoha, who are adults brief as
children.
That's why it's called ABC,Abbott Adults Brief as Children
(04:50):
and Grief really.
And so that's where it led me.
And then through that, then,other doors, begin to open and
then, you go to events and, morethings occur.
So really that's how I came toit.
It wasn't necessarily a concreteplan.
It was an idea that thencaptured my heart really.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:11):
And it sounds like we're gonna talk about some
of the way ways you've built onthat work.
I was wondering whether is thatyour mainly the clients that you
work with now is adults who werebereaved as children?
Or not.
Mandy Gosling (05:21):
It is a main part of my area.
So when I was doing, my traininghours, I'd worked in a variety
of places and I'd worked in a.
In a homeless facility and Ireally enjoyed it, but a lot of
that was very much childhoodtrauma.
And again, I think I was justprobably as you do, you
understand yourself a lot more,with the people that you work
(05:43):
with.
And I actually did, I did beginto see people who were bereaved
in early life in that facility.
So I've always been.
I think I like gritty work.
And I always thought I wouldmore lean towards childhood
trauma in a variety of ways.
But I guess there were otherplans afoot, as I started to
(06:04):
unfold a bit more.
My, my training, all thataspect.
And I, when you listen toyourself and what did what's my
body telling me?
And that felt akin to what Iwanted to do.
And I really enjoyed, I workedthere voluntarily for four
years.
I really enjoyed it.
And then, the naturalprogression, happens, you move
as you move through, beyond yoursort of training hours and then
(06:27):
setting up private practice.
And then I think by doing theresearch and realizing, not a
great deal was understood aboutit, or there was limited res
research there, I then became abit of an activist in it.
And that's really how ithappened.
And I thought people need tounderstand that this really is a
(06:49):
thing, that childhood griefdoesn't just disappear.
That there are many of us, manydecades later who have really
quite prolonged and distressingsymptoms.
Because of course there are,there are support.
Services now for children.
There's still a way to gobecause obviously they're
(07:10):
limited in their capability.
But I wanted people tounderstand, and actually I
wanted the individual tounderstand,'cause when I came to
therapy and I can smile atmyself, when, you turn up at
your therapist's, door for thefirst time thinking I've gotta
do four years of this.
I have no idea what I'm gonnatalk about.
And realizing that there was alot, there was a lot to unpack.
(07:32):
And I, I'd been really wellsupported in therapy, in my
training, supervisors that Irealized what was possible
beyond childhood grief.
And how I could integrate thetrauma part and how I could walk
alongside it.
And, I still walk alongside ittoday.
So then like being that moresort of activist type.
(07:55):
And then, I go to the EuropeanGrief Conference, meet people,
then I meet my professor whothen invited me last year to do
my PhD.
I'd done some preliminary workwith him and I asked him to do
some research.
'cause again, I didn't, I wasnot on my radar.
And then he said, actually, it'syours to do.
So that's how it came about.
Again, I didn't seek it out.
(08:16):
It.
It found me.
And then through the EuropeanGrief Conference I met a child
grief researcher in Denmark, andI now also work with the charity
called It's Time, and theysupport young adults who've been
parentally bereaved.
And the clinical lead and Iprovide group therapy for their
young adults.
(08:36):
And in a way, I think, it'sthat's the next step, from the
childhood space into sort ofyoung adulthood and that
emerging place where, there aremore challenges to navigate when
you are bereaved and whatsurfaces, with the sort of
information I've gathered overthe years, really.
And we've just finished our.
(08:57):
Third group.
Our fourth group, the beginningof next year is full already.
And it's a great charity forthat age group.
The and I help them understand,where they are.
They obviously express wherethey are, but also I do what I
call preventative grief measuresso that they know that it isn't
just going to disappear, that itwill be part of their life and
(09:17):
their existence, but they also,can have a life and have it walk
along the side of them and, andsome of the things to maybe
expect.
So it's psychoeducation andsupportive and processing all in
the 10 weeks that we spendtogether.
Dr Peter Blundell (09:34):
I feel like you've done a lot in your
career, haven't you, so far, interms of, and also it feels
very, like you've beenintuitively drawn to different
spaces.
Yeah.
And then something's come fromthat.
Mandy Gosling (09:49):
Yeah, I think I, I do, I think as a brief child,
we kind of wanna control thingsand I think through my training
as a, integrative therapist witha transpersonal end I learn that
it, if you keep going, it willcome.
And I think it's, allowing touse what I learn in my training
to intuitively know which pathto take.
(10:11):
And of course, sometimes we godown paths and they don't quite,
I.
Work out.
And, but also that's part of itis no, that's not where it,
that's not what aligns with me.
Yeah, I think I do workintuitively.
I work intuitively, but alsoprobably live my life quite
intuitively now.
A and that's literally throughtherapy.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:29):
You said there that you're integrative
with a, did you saytranspersonal?
Mandy Gosling (10:32):
Transpersonal.
So CCP is a in integrativetraining but it's a
transpersonal int intricate.
So part of the research that Idid was collecting dreams, so I
collected my own dreams, so aspart of the Dream Research
Institute.
Yeah, and that was, and creativemethods as well as the more kind
of.
Normal therapeutic trainings.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:53):
And so does that's what you were trained in,
is that still, now, still informyour approach now?
Mandy Gosling (10:59):
Yeah I think it depends on the person that you
sit with.
I.
It's been useful as a toolkit,to draw upon all the different
methodologies.
Some people want to workcreatively, some people don't.
And so it's adopting intowhatever somebody needs.
And from that also developingkind of the ABC grief part and
(11:22):
working with adults, brief hischildren and looking at.
Through CPD, where I couldexpand on certain areas that I
would need to, develop that sidea little bit more.
Dr Peter Blundell (11:35):
Changing the tact I suppose a little bit.
I was wondering how do you seethe wider therapy community and
how connected you feel towardsthe therapists?
Mandy Gosling (11:44):
I think it's been mixed over the years, to be
honest, Peter.
I think when I started out,you're part of a big community
when you're training and then,what do you do after that?
You stay in contact with maybe afew people from your training
which I have done and I stillcontinue to.
But I think being in privatepractice is quite a lonely, it's
(12:04):
quite a lonely road.
And so it was like that, it waslike that for a while, but.
My specialty has given me somuch more.
And it's not maybe in the, I'mpart of a team in, a therapist,
hub or somewhere, but I.
I get to speak with therapistsin different capacities, maybe
(12:26):
in charities maybe other peoplewho are similar to me.
And it's really developed, thatsort of what I've created my own
community in a way with myspecialty.
And I think that's been veryhelpful.
And I think it can be helpfulfor therapists, we might, I
think many of us might have aleaning towards a particular
(12:46):
area of work that we like and,resonates with us.
And I guess I've made it sowhere I.
I develop those relationshipsthrough my specialism.
Dr Peter Blundell (12:58):
And it sounds like your sense of community is
international as well, in termsof, because of those different
connections that you've made.
Mandy Gosling (13:05):
Yeah.
It is.
I mean was at the European GriefConference as they lost.
Two weeks ago, and you know thatalthough it's called the
European Grief Conference, it'sactually an international
conference.
There were 400 people from 34countries.
And it's so heartwarming,particularly working in the
grief arena.
I mean it's, sometimes notconsidered the most joyous
(13:27):
space, but it is really becauseyou are supporting people
probably in some of the mostdarkest moments of their life.
But there's people right acrossthe world that attends that.
And so yes it is aninternational community.
And then that sort of translatesinto kind of, LinkedIn and being
able to keep building thosenetworks, to provide,
therapeutic support probablyglobally.
(13:48):
I think since the pandemic wehave become more global as
opposed to just in ourcommunity.
Previously I would justgenerally see people, in my
local community.
That's flipped on its head sinceCOVID.
And I actually think that's apretty good thing if I'm honest,
(14:09):
because that allows clientchoice a whole lot more, if
they've got somebody who has aparticular specialty.
And lots of us do haveparticular specialties.
Then the client gets the choiceof who they have in their
specialty as opposed to just whois local.
And I think that furthers,client care really, I.
Dr Peter Blundell (14:32):
Absolutely agree with that.
And I think it's accessibilitywise as well, it's made be it
more accessible to lots ofdifferent people who maybe don't
have a lot of therapists intheir local areas, say for
example.
Mandy Gosling (14:43):
Yeah.
And also time-wise as well.
And I think sometimes, there's.
There's falls and against forall types of therapy, whether
it's online, whether it's inperson, whether it's outside,
and I always say to people, theycan have a blend of whatever
they want, if they want to comein person and do some at home,
that's absolutely fine ifthey're in the local vicinity.
But if they want my specialty,then it doesn't matter where
(15:05):
they are, they can still accessthat.
And that.
I think with the podcast thatI've done before that opened up
a lot more as I started to speakabout being a adult who was
bereaved as a child.
Then suddenly then that became akind of national and
international phenomenon.
It's oh, somebody's actuallyspeaking about this.
(15:27):
Oh, I.
Someone gets it.
And so I think the podcasts havebeen really helpful.
And I would urge anybody who'sgot a specialty to come on your
podcast so that people canunderstand.
Where they might signpost orwhere they might even be
inquisitive themself as atherapist, to work in particular
(15:48):
areas so that we don't also feelso alone.
In our co in our therapeuticcommunity.
Dr Peter Blundell (15:54):
And I think there's something about the
guests that come on the podcastwho are able to.
They talk about their specialty,but they also talk about that
personal experiences led up tothat.
And I think that resonates witha lot of people in terms of,
yeah why someone's interested inthat and what it means to them.
Mandy Gosling (16:10):
Yeah I think it's more common than perhaps we,
realize why are we so interestedin a particular topic?
I think often it comes through,say, personal experience and I,
and it's not that we would bringthat into the room per se, but I
think sometimes I thinktherapists got.
Certainly, I'm publicly knownthrough my podcast and that, and
(16:31):
some people say it happened toyou, so you understand it.
And whilst my experience will bedifferent to anybody and
everybody's experience isdifferent, I think it can be
also really beneficial.
I remember reading, I can'tremember what the topic was
about, but it was in the BACPmagazine.
Somebody wrote about disclosure.
(16:53):
And I was curious about, what toread and she said that she found
it helpful and or people foundit helpful to understand because
there was an in immediateempathic resonance.
And I think gone are the dayswhere.
We are the blank canvas, that weare more human.
And some of the topics we workwith are more relational.
(17:18):
And if people know, whetherthat's in the session or you can
go, yeah, I can reallyunderstand that.
Even if you say, I can reallyunderstand that they wouldn't,
they would have a felt sense ifyou really understood what they
meant.
Dr Peter Blundell (17:32):
And there's something about.
If that helps the therapeuticrelationship then it's very
important for that person'stherapy.
Mandy Gosling (17:38):
It is.
No, I would I would definitelyagree.
And I think there's a little bitmore flex in that these days
where clients get a sense ofunderstanding, more than say in.
In another, I'm not saying thatpeople don't understand, but
there's a deeper level ofunderstanding.
Yeah.
It's got a little extra contextto it,
Dr Peter Blundell (18:00):
and maybe people connect on a deeper level
with that shared knowledge aswell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you think is the biggestchallenge that the counseling
and psychotherapy professionsface right now?
Mandy Gosling (18:10):
I dunno if I'm gonna be popular saying this.
Dr Peter Blundell (18:13):
It's okay.
Share your honest, authenticopinion.
Mandy Gosling (18:18):
I'm curious about social media.
I, this is a podcast with thetherapist Connect hashtag So
this is social media.
Dr Peter Blundell (18:26):
Absolutely.
And speaking to a network ofthousands of therapists who use
social media.
No pressure man.
Mandy Gosling (18:33):
No.
So I'm like, okay.
Be kind to me, Peter.
It be kind to me.
I think I'm gonna talk at itfrom my lens.
I think, and I think there's forand against for it, if I'm being
really honest.
I think there is some greatthings that happen on social
media, like connection, likecertain understandings.
But when we are talking about,perhaps sort of things that may
(18:58):
be more traumatic or people'sexperiences are more traumatic I
think that's where trainedindividuals really come into,
their utmost need to be honest,and of course.
As humans, we're alwayssearching for answers.
We want to know, why don't, Iwas no different.
I was searching for it in books,I wanted to know why I was
(19:21):
dysfunctional in relationships,and I must, I can't begin to,
they tell you how many books Iread on it in my thirties.
Why do I do that?
What's wrong with me?
So that, that.
That human desire to understandand look for answers, and I
think that's where thecomplexity lies because it isn't
just, a picture, it isn't just ameme, it isn't just a 10 minute
(19:44):
clip that is useful.
Now, it may be in certaincircumstances.
But it may also not be in othercircumstances.
And I think that's where we needto keep maintaining, our
professionalism and what we arethere for.
And, whether people looking forthe answer through social media,
(20:09):
when sometimes it might make itfeel more hopeless.
Rather than hopeful, or whethertrauma can be integrated or
whether there is a life to livealongside.
So like for mine with grief asopposed to it's all really,
terrible.
You might as well, stop.
I think that's where it'scomplex and.
(20:34):
It's the world.
We, it is the world we live in,and things like grief and,
prolonged grief and delayedgrief and complicated grief.
It doesn't it needs professionalintervention.
If it's, sometimes you know,recent grief, then community is
really helpful.
Or, groups are really helpful.
But if it's been present formany decades, that.
(21:00):
That can be tricky.
And I think sometimes it, it'snot helpful.
So I think, it di it is, it'sdifferentiating where it's
helpful and where it's not.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:11):
And I think that's also quite hard to do,
isn't it?
If.
Because it can be like a farayof information.
And how do you make sense of allof these different people,
possibly all therapists sayingpotential or different things in
terms of how to cope or what todo or how to approach something
can, how do you then navigatethat?
(21:33):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (21:34):
Yeah.
And I think with therapy, wedon't.
I think sometimes, when we're,we all do it, we look for the
elixir, the answer, and we lookat the text.
As therapists, we always look atthe subtext, like what someone's
saying is not really whatthey're saying.
We have been taught to lookbeneath the surface and look for
(21:55):
a variety of possibilities, notjust the one answer to
something.
And I think that's where itbecomes.
Bit, a bit tricky.
And yes, I think it is DI thinkit is difficult.
I think it's just making surethat we continue to be present
and we maybe we are present insocial media and we might even
name the, there are some thingsthat social media is really
(22:16):
useful for, but there's alsosome things where it's not.
And I think when people get tothat hopeless stage, that's when
it becomes really tricky.
There's no hope.
And of course as therapists, wedon't sit in that space.
Give, we do give hope.
Sometimes we hold the hope forsomebody when they don't feel
like there is any hope, becausewe know the possibilities.
We know how things can be walkedwith, as opposed to, being
(22:40):
crushed by, for example.
I think at this time of year, asChristmas comes in and I still
get triggered by it.
Which is just a ridiculous one.
But, we often get, please lighta candle for your loved one, at
Christmas, in, in the grieffield.
And do you know, I still findthat really hard.
I like, when I read it, I get aphysical body response.
(23:01):
It's yeah, it's like nobodyunderstands what traumatic
grief, can feel like.
It'd be great if I couldremember my mother, then I could
light a candle for her.
But that's not the answer.
And of course then that elicits,there's something wrong with me,
or there's shame around it, orthere's, so that's what I mean
when it could be more difficultif we don't understand.
Dr Peter Blundell (23:24):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (23:25):
Like what our target audience is,
Dr Peter Blundell (23:28):
and every well-intentioned post or bit of
advice or idea or meme couldalso be quite painful.
Yeah.
Awful and upsetting forsomebody.
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (23:39):
Yeah.
I, I advocate hope beyond,probably the most traumatic loss
somebody can experience,because, we deserve to have a
life and we deserve to live, butwe will also be managing our
grief symptoms for the rest ofour life in whatever way they
arise.
And sometimes they arise in, intricky ways.
Dr Peter Blundell (24:02):
Thanks, Mandy.
This has been a wonderfuldiscussion.
So I'm just wondering what'snext for you?
What are your future plans?
Mandy Gosling (24:08):
The PhD is gonna take a lot of work and.
I've, I'm designing it so thatI'm not taking the easy route,
of course.
That it hopefully gains maximumimpact.
So that's gonna take a lot ofwork.
I'm still gonna do my clinicalwork because I.
It's what I love most.
(24:29):
Watching people stretch and growand transform and be able to
live more peaceful lives.
I.
Yeah, it's probably gonna notlook too dissimilar.
I think I will still just stayin that intuitive space and see
what opens up.
So like I, I have a newsletter,so I'm, I started that about six
(24:52):
months ago.
So to continue to do that I runworkshops a couple of times a
year, so that, I'm still gonnado that.
So just keep really working inthe field of, adults breathe
with children and a, b, c griefand keep being an activist in
that space as well as aclinician and a bereaved child
(25:12):
myself.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:13):
There's so much there.
Mandy to keep you busy and Ifeel like we could speak for
another couple of hoursexploring some of these topics,
but we have come to the end ofthe podcast time and our on my
questions.
So I just wanna thank you forbeing an amazing.
Guest and coming on the podcast.
And we will put all your detailsand everything in the show notes
so people can connect with allthose organizations and groups
(25:35):
and work that you've been doing.
Mandy Gosling (25:37):
It's been really lovely.
It's been lovely to meet you,Peter.
Thank you for inviting me.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:41):
You too.
You're very welcome.
And yeah, thanks for being sucha great guest.
Hello, and welcome to anotherepisode of the Therapist Connect
podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and in thismonth's episode I'm interviewing
psychotherapist Mandy Gosling.
Mandy is an integrativepsychotherapist drawing on
several modalities, includingpsychodynamic, humanistic,
existential, and transpersonal.
Mandy has a wide variety ofinterests, which include
(00:21):
unresolved childhood grief,neuroscience, trauma, and
childhood development, and wetouch on a variety of these
throughout this interview.
It was an absolute pleasure tointerview Mandy, and if you're
interested in her work, we'regonna leave you some of her
details in the show notes tothis episode.
If you enjoyed this episode ofThe Therapist Connect podcast,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform as it
(00:44):
really helps us get the word outthere about the podcast.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:47):
Hi, Mandy.
Mandy Gosling (00:49):
Hi Peter.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:49):
What made you become a therapist in the first
place?
Mandy Gosling (00:52):
What made me become a therapist, I think it's
a really interesting story andis that I don't think ISI didn't
really s it wasn't like a, oh,this is what I'm going to do.
It was never a I need to becomea therapist.
I'd always been interested in.
(01:12):
Human behavior and I thinkreally on reflection, I was
probably interested in my ownhuman behavior.
Sometimes for the better andsometimes mostly not.
Because I came from, being abereaved child.
My mother died when I was nine.
And with that came obviously alot of complexities.
My father didn't stay around.
(01:33):
I was then, went to live with mygrandmother when I was 18, and
then she died when I was 21.
So really, I had threesuccessive losses, even though
they were all different by thetime I was 21.
I think I often say, I wascrashing through life really,
and, but I wanted to, there wasalways a desire to understand,
(01:55):
why was I struggling in this andwhy was I struggling in that?
And I, I never really set out tobecome a therapist.
So my children had got to apoint, and, I was in my mid
forties and I thought.
Is this it?
Is this what I'm gonna do?
Is this the meaning of life?
The question that comes in ourforties, who am I?
And then I thought I'd alwaysbeen interesting and I wonder,
(02:18):
so what I did was I signed upfor a years' foundation
counseling course, and then.
The person running it hadtrained at a place in London,
the Center for Counseling andPsychotherapy Education.
And I thought, oh, I quite likedthat.
It was interesting.
And I literally went with buyingfaith.
I didn't actually look anywhereelse'cause I liked what she did
(02:39):
in the initial training.
So then I signed up for fouryears psychotherapy training
there.
And then.
Either I had to do a projectweekend or I had to do a
master's.
And for a bereaved child whoseeducation was compromised in a
way I never really believed thatI could.
(03:01):
I.
Do anything that was stretchingin that way, I'd always felt,
not very clever.
And it wasn't that I wasn't veryclever actually before, when I
was a young child and my motherwas alive, I was actually quite
a bright young child.
But when she died, she was thesort of part of my life that was
encouraging in that field.
And then that disappeared too.
(03:21):
So I think, my confidence inthat space disappeared at that
time as well.
Thinking I dunno what to do andwhen you're not supported as a
child, to be more it carriesthrough into your adult life.
I had a really good friend whoencouraged me.
He said, you can do the Masters.
And I questioned myself and hewent I'm doing it so you can do
it.
So that's literally how it cameabout.
(03:42):
And then I was really wellsupported by the team of people
who were running the masters andmy own therapist.
And yeah that's how it, that'show it came about.
And then I did another year'straining as a relationship
therapist because what Iunderstood was.
People with early life loss hada lot of challenges in
relationships, so it all justhappened and unfolded.
(04:06):
Weave together.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:07):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (04:07):
And just continued, I had no and I think
I've now learned, through my owntraining is just, just follow
what unfolds and, stay in yourlane and keep on your path and
see what happens.
I think sometimes when you forceit doesn't really happen and
it's been a very organicprocess.
(04:28):
And so after I did, after I didmy master's, I realized, so my
master's was understanding thelong-term impact of parental
bereavement from a psychologicaland spiritual perspective.
So then I founded ABC Grief,which is a website, which is a
resource website for people whoha, who are adults brief as
children.
That's why it's called ABC,Abbott Adults Brief as Children
(04:50):
and Grief really.
And so that's where it led me.
And then through that, then,other doors, begin to open and
then, you go to events and, morethings occur.
So really that's how I came toit.
It wasn't necessarily a concreteplan.
It was an idea that thencaptured my heart really.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:11):
And it sounds like we're gonna talk about some
of the way ways you've built onthat work.
I was wondering whether is thatyour mainly the clients that you
work with now is adults who werebereaved as children?
Or not.
Mandy Gosling (05:21):
It is a main part of my area.
So when I was doing, my traininghours, I'd worked in a variety
of places and I'd worked in a.
In a homeless facility and Ireally enjoyed it, but a lot of
that was very much childhoodtrauma.
And again, I think I was justprobably as you do, you
understand yourself a lot more,with the people that you work
(05:43):
with.
And I actually did, I did beginto see people who were bereaved
in early life in that facility.
So I've always been.
I think I like gritty work.
And I always thought I wouldmore lean towards childhood
trauma in a variety of ways.
But I guess there were otherplans afoot, as I started to
(06:04):
unfold a bit more.
My, my training, all thataspect.
And I, when you listen toyourself and what did what's my
body telling me?
And that felt akin to what Iwanted to do.
And I really enjoyed, I workedthere voluntarily for four
years.
I really enjoyed it.
And then, the naturalprogression, happens, you move
as you move through, beyond yoursort of training hours and then
(06:27):
setting up private practice.
And then I think by doing theresearch and realizing, not a
great deal was understood aboutit, or there was limited res
research there, I then became abit of an activist in it.
And that's really how ithappened.
And I thought people need tounderstand that this really is a
(06:49):
thing, that childhood griefdoesn't just disappear.
That there are many of us, manydecades later who have really
quite prolonged and distressingsymptoms.
Because of course there are,there are support.
Services now for children.
There's still a way to gobecause obviously they're
(07:10):
limited in their capability.
But I wanted people tounderstand, and actually I
wanted the individual tounderstand,'cause when I came to
therapy and I can smile atmyself, when, you turn up at
your therapist's, door for thefirst time thinking I've gotta
do four years of this.
I have no idea what I'm gonnatalk about.
And realizing that there was alot, there was a lot to unpack.
(07:32):
And I, I'd been really wellsupported in therapy, in my
training, supervisors that Irealized what was possible
beyond childhood grief.
And how I could integrate thetrauma part and how I could walk
alongside it.
And, I still walk alongside ittoday.
So then like being that moresort of activist type.
(07:55):
And then, I go to the EuropeanGrief Conference, meet people,
then I meet my professor whothen invited me last year to do
my PhD.
I'd done some preliminary workwith him and I asked him to do
some research.
'cause again, I didn't, I wasnot on my radar.
And then he said, actually, it'syours to do.
So that's how it came about.
Again, I didn't seek it out.
(08:16):
It.
It found me.
And then through the EuropeanGrief Conference I met a child
grief researcher in Denmark, andI now also work with the charity
called It's Time, and theysupport young adults who've been
parentally bereaved.
And the clinical lead and Iprovide group therapy for their
young adults.
(08:36):
And in a way, I think, it'sthat's the next step, from the
childhood space into sort ofyoung adulthood and that
emerging place where, there aremore challenges to navigate when
you are bereaved and whatsurfaces, with the sort of
information I've gathered overthe years, really.
And we've just finished our.
(08:57):
Third group.
Our fourth group, the beginningof next year is full already.
And it's a great charity forthat age group.
The and I help them understand,where they are.
They obviously express wherethey are, but also I do what I
call preventative grief measuresso that they know that it isn't
just going to disappear, that itwill be part of their life and
(09:17):
their existence, but they also,can have a life and have it walk
along the side of them and, andsome of the things to maybe
expect.
So it's psychoeducation andsupportive and processing all in
the 10 weeks that we spendtogether.
Dr Peter Blundell (09:34):
I feel like you've done a lot in your
career, haven't you, so far, interms of, and also it feels
very, like you've beenintuitively drawn to different
spaces.
Yeah.
And then something's come fromthat.
Mandy Gosling (09:49):
Yeah, I think I, I do, I think as a brief child,
we kind of wanna control thingsand I think through my training
as a, integrative therapist witha transpersonal end I learn that
it, if you keep going, it willcome.
And I think it's, allowing touse what I learn in my training
to intuitively know which pathto take.
(10:11):
And of course, sometimes we godown paths and they don't quite,
I.
Work out.
And, but also that's part of itis no, that's not where it,
that's not what aligns with me.
Yeah, I think I do workintuitively.
I work intuitively, but alsoprobably live my life quite
intuitively now.
A and that's literally throughtherapy.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:29):
You said there that you're integrative
with a, did you saytranspersonal?
Mandy Gosling (10:32):
Transpersonal.
So CCP is a in integrativetraining but it's a
transpersonal int intricate.
So part of the research that Idid was collecting dreams, so I
collected my own dreams, so aspart of the Dream Research
Institute.
Yeah, and that was, and creativemethods as well as the more kind
of.
Normal therapeutic trainings.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:53):
And so does that's what you were trained in,
is that still, now, still informyour approach now?
Mandy Gosling (10:59):
Yeah I think it depends on the person that you
sit with.
I.
It's been useful as a toolkit,to draw upon all the different
methodologies.
Some people want to workcreatively, some people don't.
And so it's adopting intowhatever somebody needs.
And from that also developingkind of the ABC grief part and
(11:22):
working with adults, brief hischildren and looking at.
Through CPD, where I couldexpand on certain areas that I
would need to, develop that sidea little bit more.
Dr Peter Blundell (11:35):
Changing the tact I suppose a little bit.
I was wondering how do you seethe wider therapy community and
how connected you feel towardsthe therapists?
Mandy Gosling (11:44):
I think it's been mixed over the years, to be
honest, Peter.
I think when I started out,you're part of a big community
when you're training and then,what do you do after that?
You stay in contact with maybe afew people from your training
which I have done and I stillcontinue to.
But I think being in privatepractice is quite a lonely, it's
(12:04):
quite a lonely road.
And so it was like that, it waslike that for a while, but.
My specialty has given me somuch more.
And it's not maybe in the, I'mpart of a team in, a therapist,
hub or somewhere, but I.
I get to speak with therapistsin different capacities, maybe
(12:26):
in charities maybe other peoplewho are similar to me.
And it's really developed, thatsort of what I've created my own
community in a way with myspecialty.
And I think that's been veryhelpful.
And I think it can be helpfulfor therapists, we might, I
think many of us might have aleaning towards a particular
(12:46):
area of work that we like and,resonates with us.
And I guess I've made it sowhere I.
I develop those relationshipsthrough my specialism.
Dr Peter Blundell (12:58):
And it sounds like your sense of community is
international as well, in termsof, because of those different
connections that you've made.
Mandy Gosling (13:05):
Yeah.
It is.
I mean was at the European GriefConference as they lost.
Two weeks ago, and you know thatalthough it's called the
European Grief Conference, it'sactually an international
conference.
There were 400 people from 34countries.
And it's so heartwarming,particularly working in the
grief arena.
I mean it's, sometimes notconsidered the most joyous
(13:27):
space, but it is really becauseyou are supporting people
probably in some of the mostdarkest moments of their life.
But there's people right acrossthe world that attends that.
And so yes it is aninternational community.
And then that sort of translatesinto kind of, LinkedIn and being
able to keep building thosenetworks, to provide,
therapeutic support probablyglobally.
(13:48):
I think since the pandemic wehave become more global as
opposed to just in ourcommunity.
Previously I would justgenerally see people, in my
local community.
That's flipped on its head sinceCOVID.
And I actually think that's apretty good thing if I'm honest,
(14:09):
because that allows clientchoice a whole lot more, if
they've got somebody who has aparticular specialty.
And lots of us do haveparticular specialties.
Then the client gets the choiceof who they have in their
specialty as opposed to just whois local.
And I think that furthers,client care really, I.
Dr Peter Blundell (14:32):
Absolutely agree with that.
And I think it's accessibilitywise as well, it's made be it
more accessible to lots ofdifferent people who maybe don't
have a lot of therapists intheir local areas, say for
example.
Mandy Gosling (14:43):
Yeah.
And also time-wise as well.
And I think sometimes, there's.
There's falls and against forall types of therapy, whether
it's online, whether it's inperson, whether it's outside,
and I always say to people, theycan have a blend of whatever
they want, if they want to comein person and do some at home,
that's absolutely fine ifthey're in the local vicinity.
But if they want my specialty,then it doesn't matter where
(15:05):
they are, they can still accessthat.
And that.
I think with the podcast thatI've done before that opened up
a lot more as I started to speakabout being a adult who was
bereaved as a child.
Then suddenly then that became akind of national and
international phenomenon.
It's oh, somebody's actuallyspeaking about this.
(15:27):
Oh, I.
Someone gets it.
And so I think the podcasts havebeen really helpful.
And I would urge anybody who'sgot a specialty to come on your
podcast so that people canunderstand.
Where they might signpost orwhere they might even be
inquisitive themself as atherapist, to work in particular
(15:48):
areas so that we don't also feelso alone.
In our co in our therapeuticcommunity.
Dr Peter Blundell (15:54):
And I think there's something about the
guests that come on the podcastwho are able to.
They talk about their specialty,but they also talk about that
personal experiences led up tothat.
And I think that resonates witha lot of people in terms of,
yeah why someone's interested inthat and what it means to them.
Mandy Gosling (16:10):
Yeah I think it's more common than perhaps we,
realize why are we so interestedin a particular topic?
I think often it comes through,say, personal experience and I,
and it's not that we would bringthat into the room per se, but I
think sometimes I thinktherapists got.
Certainly, I'm publicly knownthrough my podcast and that, and
(16:31):
some people say it happened toyou, so you understand it.
And whilst my experience will bedifferent to anybody and
everybody's experience isdifferent, I think it can be
also really beneficial.
I remember reading, I can'tremember what the topic was
about, but it was in the BACPmagazine.
Somebody wrote about disclosure.
(16:53):
And I was curious about, what toread and she said that she found
it helpful and or people foundit helpful to understand because
there was an in immediateempathic resonance.
And I think gone are the dayswhere.
We are the blank canvas, that weare more human.
And some of the topics we workwith are more relational.
(17:18):
And if people know, whetherthat's in the session or you can
go, yeah, I can reallyunderstand that.
Even if you say, I can reallyunderstand that they wouldn't,
they would have a felt sense ifyou really understood what they
meant.
Dr Peter Blundell (17:32):
And there's something about.
If that helps the therapeuticrelationship then it's very
important for that person'stherapy.
Mandy Gosling (17:38):
It is.
No, I would I would definitelyagree.
And I think there's a little bitmore flex in that these days
where clients get a sense ofunderstanding, more than say in.
In another, I'm not saying thatpeople don't understand, but
there's a deeper level ofunderstanding.
Yeah.
It's got a little extra contextto it,
Dr Peter Blundell (18:00):
and maybe people connect on a deeper level
with that shared knowledge aswell.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What do you think is the biggestchallenge that the counseling
and psychotherapy professionsface right now?
Mandy Gosling (18:10):
I dunno if I'm gonna be popular saying this.
Dr Peter Blundell (18:13):
It's okay.
Share your honest, authenticopinion.
Mandy Gosling (18:18):
I'm curious about social media.
I, this is a podcast with thetherapist Connect hashtag So
this is social media.
Dr Peter Blundell (18:26):
Absolutely.
And speaking to a network ofthousands of therapists who use
social media.
No pressure man.
Mandy Gosling (18:33):
No.
So I'm like, okay.
Be kind to me, Peter.
It be kind to me.
I think I'm gonna talk at itfrom my lens.
I think, and I think there's forand against for it, if I'm being
really honest.
I think there is some greatthings that happen on social
media, like connection, likecertain understandings.
But when we are talking about,perhaps sort of things that may
(18:58):
be more traumatic or people'sexperiences are more traumatic I
think that's where trainedindividuals really come into,
their utmost need to be honest,and of course.
As humans, we're alwayssearching for answers.
We want to know, why don't, Iwas no different.
I was searching for it in books,I wanted to know why I was
(19:21):
dysfunctional in relationships,and I must, I can't begin to,
they tell you how many books Iread on it in my thirties.
Why do I do that?
What's wrong with me?
So that, that.
That human desire to understandand look for answers, and I
think that's where thecomplexity lies because it isn't
just, a picture, it isn't just ameme, it isn't just a 10 minute
(19:44):
clip that is useful.
Now, it may be in certaincircumstances.
But it may also not be in othercircumstances.
And I think that's where we needto keep maintaining, our
professionalism and what we arethere for.
And, whether people looking forthe answer through social media,
(20:09):
when sometimes it might make itfeel more hopeless.
Rather than hopeful, or whethertrauma can be integrated or
whether there is a life to livealongside.
So like for mine with grief asopposed to it's all really,
terrible.
You might as well, stop.
I think that's where it'scomplex and.
(20:34):
It's the world.
We, it is the world we live in,and things like grief and,
prolonged grief and delayedgrief and complicated grief.
It doesn't it needs professionalintervention.
If it's, sometimes you know,recent grief, then community is
really helpful.
Or, groups are really helpful.
But if it's been present formany decades, that.
(21:00):
That can be tricky.
And I think sometimes it, it'snot helpful.
So I think, it di it is, it'sdifferentiating where it's
helpful and where it's not.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:11):
And I think that's also quite hard to do,
isn't it?
If.
Because it can be like a farayof information.
And how do you make sense of allof these different people,
possibly all therapists sayingpotential or different things in
terms of how to cope or what todo or how to approach something
can, how do you then navigatethat?
(21:33):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (21:34):
Yeah.
And I think with therapy, wedon't.
I think sometimes, when we're,we all do it, we look for the
elixir, the answer, and we lookat the text.
As therapists, we always look atthe subtext, like what someone's
saying is not really whatthey're saying.
We have been taught to lookbeneath the surface and look for
(21:55):
a variety of possibilities, notjust the one answer to
something.
And I think that's where itbecomes.
Bit, a bit tricky.
And yes, I think it is DI thinkit is difficult.
I think it's just making surethat we continue to be present
and we maybe we are present insocial media and we might even
name the, there are some thingsthat social media is really
(22:16):
useful for, but there's alsosome things where it's not.
And I think when people get tothat hopeless stage, that's when
it becomes really tricky.
There's no hope.
And of course as therapists, wedon't sit in that space.
Give, we do give hope.
Sometimes we hold the hope forsomebody when they don't feel
like there is any hope, becausewe know the possibilities.
We know how things can be walkedwith, as opposed to, being
(22:40):
crushed by, for example.
I think at this time of year, asChristmas comes in and I still
get triggered by it.
Which is just a ridiculous one.
But, we often get, please lighta candle for your loved one, at
Christmas, in, in the grieffield.
And do you know, I still findthat really hard.
I like, when I read it, I get aphysical body response.
(23:01):
It's yeah, it's like nobodyunderstands what traumatic
grief, can feel like.
It'd be great if I couldremember my mother, then I could
light a candle for her.
But that's not the answer.
And of course then that elicits,there's something wrong with me,
or there's shame around it, orthere's, so that's what I mean
when it could be more difficultif we don't understand.
Dr Peter Blundell (23:24):
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (23:25):
Like what our target audience is,
Dr Peter Blundell (23:28):
and every well-intentioned post or bit of
advice or idea or meme couldalso be quite painful.
Yeah.
Awful and upsetting forsomebody.
Yeah.
Mandy Gosling (23:39):
Yeah.
I, I advocate hope beyond,probably the most traumatic loss
somebody can experience,because, we deserve to have a
life and we deserve to live, butwe will also be managing our
grief symptoms for the rest ofour life in whatever way they
arise.
And sometimes they arise in, intricky ways.
Dr Peter Blundell (24:02):
Thanks, Mandy.
This has been a wonderfuldiscussion.
So I'm just wondering what'snext for you?
What are your future plans?
Mandy Gosling (24:08):
The PhD is gonna take a lot of work and.
I've, I'm designing it so thatI'm not taking the easy route,
of course.
That it hopefully gains maximumimpact.
So that's gonna take a lot ofwork.
I'm still gonna do my clinicalwork because I.
It's what I love most.
(24:29):
Watching people stretch and growand transform and be able to
live more peaceful lives.
I.
Yeah, it's probably gonna notlook too dissimilar.
I think I will still just stayin that intuitive space and see
what opens up.
So like I, I have a newsletter,so I'm, I started that about six
(24:52):
months ago.
So to continue to do that I runworkshops a couple of times a
year, so that, I'm still gonnado that.
So just keep really working inthe field of, adults breathe
with children and a, b, c griefand keep being an activist in
that space as well as aclinician and a bereaved child
(25:12):
myself.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:13):
There's so much there.
Mandy to keep you busy and Ifeel like we could speak for
another couple of hoursexploring some of these topics,
but we have come to the end ofthe podcast time and our on my
questions.
So I just wanna thank you forbeing an amazing.
Guest and coming on the podcast.
And we will put all your detailsand everything in the show notes
so people can connect with allthose organizations and groups
(25:35):
and work that you've been doing.
Mandy Gosling (25:37):
It's been really lovely.
It's been lovely to meet you,Peter.
Thank you for inviting me.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:41):
You too.
You're very welcome.
And yeah, thanks for being sucha great guest.
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