May 15, 2025 • 27 mins
#TherapistsConnect Podcast – Episode with Martin Fenerty
In this rich and thoughtful conversation, Dr. Peter Blundell interviews person-centred therapist Martin Fenerty about his life, work, and the values that shape his practice. Martin reflects on his early influences, what drew him to the person-centred approach, and the realities of working in today’s therapeutic landscape. With warmth and honesty, he shares personal insights into what it means to build authentic therapeutic relationships, navigate professional challenges, and stay grounded in humanistic values.
Whether you’re a student, a seasoned therapist, or simply curious about the person-centred approach, this episode offers both inspiration and depth. Tune in for a moving and meaningful dialogue between two passionate therapists.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Therapist Connect
(00:02):
podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and I'm backthis month interviewing
therapists about their life andwork.
This month's guest is a longterm friend of mine, someone
I've known for a very long time.
Martin Fenerty.
Martin is based in Liverpool andhas been an accredited member of
BACP and been in practice since2012.
Previously working in the NHSand Charitable Services.
(00:25):
He's a person centeredcounselor, is also trained in
CBT and EMDR, and it's recentlyset up in private practice.
We discuss all those topics intoday's episode.
If you'd like to support thispodcast, please leave us a
review on your favorite podcastplatform.
I hope you enjoy this episode asmuch as I did recording it.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:45):
So Martin, welcome to the Therapist Connect
podcast.
It's lovely to have you onboard.
Martin Fenerty (00:50):
Yeah.
Lovely to be here.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:52):
So I'm gonna dive straight into the
questions.
So that's probably the best wayto get to know you a little bit
and I know you, but for ourlisteners to get to know you a
little bit.
Better.
So can you tell us a little bitabout how you came to be a
therapist then in the firstplace?
Martin Fenerty (01:05):
So my, all my working career, I've done
helping work.
It wasn't where I started.
I actually started as actuallystudied by Chemistry at
University.
I was meant to be.
I was meant to be a scientist,but I was hopeless.
Dr Peter Blundell (01:22):
That means you weren't meant to be a
scientist.
Martin Fenerty (01:24):
That's what, that's where I was directed,
shall we say, to be a scientistof some kind.
And so that didn't gotremendously well.
And so I had to rethink at theend of university really
realistically what I was doing.
So I started doing various bitsof voluntary work, so with a
(01:45):
local LGBT youth group and withthe Citizens Advice Bureau.
And that was probably the primething that got me into helping
was.
Work with Systems Advice Bureau.
'cause at the time, the trainingvolunteers was quite
considerable and went into sortof models of helping.
(02:09):
So that was an interestingintroduction and that was where
I started from.
And then things over the yearsmoved in different directions
and eventually became atherapist.
Dr Peter Blundell (02:21):
That's really interesting.
So was the stuff around thecitizen advice, was that like
advocacy work then and that typeof support?
Martin Fenerty (02:27):
Yeah it was advocacy and advice work.
So very directive.
But very much focused onactually let's compile all the
options that there are forsomebody and.
Let them choose.
It may be that they make thedecision that you don't think is
the wisest, but as long asthey've got all the information,
(02:50):
that's what you go with andthat's what you support them
with as far as you, as far asyou can.
Yeah.
So it was good.
You it was good.
First principles around helpingaround.
You have the resources and youoffer them to the person and
they make of them.
What they will, and you, so youpeople, especially with advice
(03:13):
work, you they're askingessentially legal questions
around benefits or housing ordebt.
The temptation is to be verydirective and you are to a
certain, you are to a setextent.
'cause you've got to berealistic and people want that.
But you are trying to givepeople, hand people some power
(03:33):
of some agency.
Within that.
And the advocacy is really, isyou, is that basic principles of
what does that person want tosay or need to say and you are
presenting it.
So yeah, many years of doingthat as a volunteer, but also as
a case worker.
So as a money advisor, and Iguess part of what I experienced
(03:55):
through that help was a bit offrustration that I was doing
lots of practical things, butwith debt, people would call
profoundly distressed'cause it'sa very stressful experience and
people are overwhelmed withcontact from creditors.
And so often I found myselffrustrated that I.
(04:19):
Felt I couldn't really do enoughfor them emotionally.
There's maybe actually quite alot I could do for them
practically.
Yeah.
But the burden of being in debtand the circumstances that led
up to that, whether that was jobloss and just the profound
changes in people's lives, itcan lead to that.
(04:39):
And you, that was probably theearliest point where I started
having a yearning to support.
People emotionally and wantingto help them find the resources
to, to have some resilience orsome power in their situation.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:00):
Did you train as a therapist while you were
still working at the CitizensAdvice Bureau then?
Martin Fenerty (05:06):
No.
So I did about 10 years inCitizens Advice Bureau,
eventually.
Eventually was managing abureau.
And I moved on from there.
I.
Because it was very, it was avery difficult role leading a
very small charity.
'cause each bureau was a, anindividual charity at that time.
(05:28):
And my experience as CitizensAdvice Bureau and my volunteer
work in the LGBT and HIV.
Community led me to getting towork in the NHS getting a job in
the NHS in a sexual healthoutreach service which gradually
transformed into an LGBT and sexworker support service.
(05:48):
My sort of career took me inthat direction.
And as well as doing healthpromotion, I was doing much more
emotional support, particularlyaround sexuality and gender and
working with women who wereworking on the streets.
Street-based sex work.
It was their experiences ofsexual violence, physical
(06:09):
violence, homelessness, abusiverelationships.
So during that time I did abasic counseling course, did
that basic 10 week course, andthen it went from there.
So I ended, yeah, I ended updoing my counseling training
whilst in that service.
(06:30):
And that's where I did myplacement in work.
So I was managing sort of dualrelationships at the time as
well.
That's where my start in therapybegan, which was work was
working with people from theL-G-B-T-Q community.
And women involved in sex work.
It's, I so for a period I workedin a local cancer charity.
(06:51):
Of course, some flowers.
There was big cuts with thisausterity in public health fund,
which impacted drugs, services,and sexual health services.
So my role in the in sexualhealth.
Changed quite profoundly and Iwent really behind the scenes
rather than delivering services.
So to keep up my practice, Iended up making links with that
(07:14):
charity and worked there for anumber of years.
And then it's gone full circlethe last couple of years I've
been working in.
Sahir House the local LGBTQ andHIV charity.
So I've come round, full circle.
And that's where I'm currentlyworking, employed.
Yeah, just branching out intosome private practice as well.
Dr Peter Blundell (07:35):
That's great.
Maybe talk about your privatepractice stuff a bit more in a
moment.
One of the things that struck methen when you were talking about
mentioned austerity and I wasjust, it just.
Made me think about'cause we'reboth in Liverpool and it made me
think about how many colleaguesI've seen over the years who
work in kind of the charitablesector, how much their career
(07:56):
paths have changed or shifted,not necessarily based on where
they wanted to go, what theywere planning to do, but based
on funding and services closingdown and money being shifted to
other services and stuff likethat.
And how people end up maybe takeunplanned routes.
Because of that, yeah.
Martin Fenerty (08:12):
That's probably reflected across the country,
but I think Liverpool is one ofthose places where that's been
quite acute.
It's recognized Liverpool hashad some of the most significant
cuts in local authority funding,and that's, that has had an
impact on the city that has hadan impact on the picture of the
(08:33):
support that's available topeople overall.
Dr Peter Blundell (08:36):
Definitely.
How would you define yourtherapeutic approach?
And has that changed over, overthe time you've been qualified?
Martin Fenerty (08:46):
So fundamentally, I'm a person
centered therapist.
That's what my training.
Was, and really that is where myheart lies.
Subsequently I have trained as acognitive behavioral therapist
as well, so I do provide someCBT and often integrate the two,
(09:11):
but that person centerednessreally runs.
Through my work whatever I'mproviding.
In the context I've worked,often people come to charitable
services having tried NHSservices and they just haven't
fit.
And sometimes they feel like CBTin from primary care just hasn't
(09:36):
been the right fit for them and.
I think it works well for lotsof people, but maybe the
restricted nature and therestricted model just doesn't
fit for some people.
They need to talk, they need theconnection, and I wonder
sometimes whether some of theprinciples of CBT are lost in
that bigger picture.
(09:58):
So I work.
I guess in a very personcentered way, if I am doing CBT
very much focusing on therelationship and the principle
of collaboration and being ledby clients and feeling the way
through that process.
I don't know.
Some people would argue that I'mcorrupting all the processes
(10:19):
altogether.
But I think it, it's, I thinkit's a, it's, I think it's a
reasonable way to work.
It's an ethical way to work.
I guess that's made me becomebolder in my person centered
approach.
So sometimes people come maybe abit skeptical about that
experience, previous experienceof therapy and.
(10:40):
So I, over time I've becomebold.
I have become bolder in myperson centeredness.
And you, I believe it is an act.
You, it's an activerelationship.
It's an active process.
And I think there are morecommonalities in lots of ways
(11:01):
between person centeredness andCBT than we articulate or have
thought through.
We just do them in different, wejust do them in different ways
or use different, maybe usedifferent language.
Dr Peter Blundell (11:17):
I wonder that, how do you see the wider
therapy community and howconnected you feel to other
therapists?
Martin Fenerty (11:24):
I think I'm in an interesting place.
Just branching out into privatepractice.
I.
I guess in terms of myconnection I'm conscious really
in some ways of feeling quiteisolated from other therapists,
so I'm.
Trying to reach out and makeconnections with other
(11:46):
therapists.
And it's not through lack ofsupervision support, but really
from a desire to try and makeconnections with peers.
Just have that peer support abit like you do when you are
working in an office.
You have it automaticallysitting next to you.
And I think you, we need thatpeer connection just from a
(12:08):
support point of view, the widertherapy community.
I think overall in this country,we're still not terribly
diverse.
I think it the stereotype of itbeing very white, middle class.
Profession, and that's you anddominated by women still stands.
(12:31):
I think that's not the same asit was maybe five, 10 years ago.
But I think there's the, there'sstill work to do around
diversity and look andthankfully some of that is
happening.
But it, yeah, there's more work.
There's more work to be donewith diversity, and that's not
(12:52):
just around protectivecharacteristics.
I think some of that is aroundclass as well.
You, I think that you therapydoes work best when people have
an opportunity, often to havetherapy from somebody who.
(13:13):
They recognize as having somesort of common experience or are
able to project maybe having hadsome common experience with
them.
It gives them that confidenceand that connection.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:24):
And I think think about class.
There's so many barriers forpeople entering into the
profession in terms of costs andthings like that.
Yeah.
Which I think really can have animpact on the class base of the
profession.
Martin Fenerty (13:34):
Yeah.
And I think there's also, Iguess from my own experience
actually with therapy, I, I camefrom a, I came from a relatively
middle class background, nothugely wealthy, but in
comparison to.
Most people in Liverpool,clearly middle class background
and some of the joy of my workhaving worked in the charitable
(14:00):
sector and with services thatare targeting particular needs
is that in therapy.
Lots of my middle classness hasbeen.
Beaten out of me for whatever abetter phrase.
It's very easy to hide behindyour polite, middle classness
and professionalism, and you,and that's actually not very
(14:25):
congruent.
It's really a nonsense.
I've had.
Clients call me out on mybullshit presently earlier in my
career, or just be reallypuzzled about why I am being the
presence that maybe I'm being inthe therapy room.
And that's been a huge influenceI guess on my practice around
(14:46):
actually I just need to behuman.
I just need to be me and I needto shed some of my layers.
And you intense the widertherapy community.
Sometimes I am frustrated in myinteractions with some
therapists where it feels likeI'm up against a wall of therapy
(15:09):
and therapy speak and therapy, atherapy attitude, and it's not
necessarily very human.
And it doesn't feel veryconnected.
So I think there is somethingaround we really do need to keep
doing the work around diversitybecause maybe there are shades
of us still being a bit, being abit Freudian and being that
(15:33):
frosty presence across, acrossthe room or a bit removed from
the rest of society.
We need more involvementactually, I think and keep on
trying to create that, thathuman element of therapy.
Just on the basis actually inprinciple of making it
accessible, of making it feellike it's something that people
(15:56):
can access and you relate to.
Dr Peter Blundell (16:00):
What's the biggest challenge that the
counseling and psych therapyprofession faces right now in
your opinion?
Martin Fenerty (16:07):
You we're, we are recording this after a
couple of weeks.
Quite high profile.
Media coverage, particularly in.
The Guardian around regulationand a drive for regulation.
And I think that's part of ourbiggest challenge.
(16:30):
And along with the the workaround SCoPEd and trying to
articulate the commonalities ofdifferent therapy roles and.
You gather together thedifferent strands of training
and making that making sense ofthat to other people and to
(16:51):
ourselves.
And I think though that is thebiggest challenge and I'm torn
in lots of ways I think.
We probably do need some moreregulation and particularly some
of the stories we've seen in themedia of people working really
(17:12):
quite un ethically and actuallynot even necessarily even being
trained as therapists, actuallywe would benefit maybe as a
profession to having thatprotected status and the means
to, to to demonstrate that weare part of that.
Part of a protected profession.
(17:33):
And the principles of actuallytrying to create a structure
around careers and providingclarity to.
Clients to the public, topotential funders around what do
all these terms mean?
What is what's the differencebetween a counselor and a
psychotherapist and a counselingpsychologist?
(17:57):
I don't think we all, weactually even necessarily
understand that ourselves.
In the push for that.
That's where I worry.
I worry about who gets leftbehind, how they get left behind
and potentially how narrow theprofession becomes.
(18:19):
And I think that's reallysomething that, that needs to be
considered really carefully.
And I don't think it'snecessarily clear from the work
that's happening in theprofession about how that is
being tend to and beingconsidered.
And there's a, you, there's arush to, to professionalize
(18:41):
without necessarily thinking,okay, you, you can define what
professional is without losingactually some of the richness of
that we have with the freedom ofnot being a regulated
profession.
So that can, that concerns meand it concerns me about what
talent and what perspectives wepotentially lose from within the
(19:05):
profession that actually helpit, it grow and evolve and
progress
Dr Peter Blundell (19:12):
idea, if I could close shop is coming up
for me in terms of does itcreate this narrow idea of what
it is that, that we do?
And then we don't have anycritique of that or openness to
explore what it possibly couldbe.
Martin Fenerty (19:24):
Absolutely.
And you, I think you, this is inparallel with the drive to
create a research evidence base,a greater research evidence base
around therapy.
You, and that bias towards CBTfrom person centeredness that is
based around.
(19:45):
The lack of apparent evidencebase.
I'm glad that there's a push toto look at person-centeredness
and counseling and pushresources to, to look at that
evidence base to demonstrate itseffectiveness.
But with that closed shop, withthat professionalism, maybe
there's a danger that we'vebecome hyper-focused then and
(20:08):
completely restricted on whatother people think is a credible
evidence-based and yet therapyis a felt experience.
It's a felt, it's a it's afeeling.
It's a feeling role.
A feeling profession.
It's a feeling process.
(20:30):
And there's something around usactually capturing or
experiences and articulatingthem and.
Enabling clients to articulatetheir experiences, which is also
part of that evidence base.
This isn't, therapy isn't likemedicine where you are providing
(20:52):
a pill under some really easyempirical parameters you can put
on that to determine its effecteffectiveness or its
acceptability.
This is, there isn't.
We don't have the benefit ofthat, we don't have the benefits
of doing precise operations onthe body.
(21:16):
It's a much more creativeprocess and collaborative
process.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:21):
And can you actually measure every aspect of
that?
Martin Fenerty (21:25):
You can't.
You can't.
You, and I think that's you inmy work in the charitable
sector, you.
We are in the HIV work, we're,we are funded through public
health and naturally we have toreport and quite rightly, report
on our activity, on our and oroutcomes.
(21:47):
But the challenge around that isactually if we do our measured
outcomes or core tens, sometimespeople show no change.
Sometimes people, their Core 10schools are actually worse.
They feel better.
And actually it's because theycan tolerate their distress
(22:10):
more, and that's the strengththat they have.
Or they have the courage to, toarticulate it more or more
clearly.
And that's really hard tocapture in measured outcomes.
That's really hard to capture,potentially in.
Evidence-based research and hardto articulate in terms of how
important that is.
Dr Peter Blundell (22:33):
And even the idea of a core 10, 10, 10
measures.
How many things shift and changewithin a therapeutic
relationship over the time?
It's way more than 10.
Yes.
Martin Fenerty (22:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you there is that the,there's an ongoing dialogue and
I think maybe it'll be neverending in some ways around just
fighting the corner that there,there is more to therapy than
(23:06):
those fundamental outcomemeasures.
And reduction of symptoms and.
Resolution of depression oranxiety are only very, in some
ways, narrow parts of whatpeople get out of therapy.
Dr Peter Blundell (23:22):
So Martin, that's the end of my questions.
I suppose my last one is can youtell us about what your future
plans are?
What's next?
I suppose setting up in privatepractice and focusing on that is
one of the big things
Martin Fenerty (23:34):
That's probably the biggest thing for me at the
moment.
It's very early days for me, soI've.
As well as working as atherapist.
I've worked as a manager in theNHS for 20 years, and I've just
finished working as anoperational manager.
It was time for me to end thatphase of my career.
(23:55):
So I'm in the very, very earlydays of private practice and
building that private practice.
And that's an interestingexperience.
Exciting and frightening inequal measure often.
So that's where I'm, that'swhere I'm developing.
I'm doing some work online andexploring that.
(24:17):
Means to support my privatepractice to just in terms of my
presence.
So I've created a social mediaprofile from a private practice
and I think as I've been doingsome videos on there and they've
often reflected things that justhave cropped up in my own life
(24:37):
or just issues that are around aparticular.
Time, but talking about them inrelation to therapy and people's
felt experience and maybeproviding sort of information
and education around it.
I'm not a huge social mediaperson for all my talk of
embracing technology, hostingselfies and doing videos isn't
(24:58):
my natural isn't my naturalenvironment.
So that's been really outside ofmy comfort zone and very much
I'm learning as I go along.
But I'm hoping that is an isanother way for people to get a
sense of who I am and how Imight be if I'm working.
With them.
So I'm, I'm reaching out topotential clients there for them
(25:21):
to get, have a safe way ofobserving me without actually
having to speak to me, and theymight have the courage to speak
to me.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:27):
We've known each other for a long time, but
we haven't seen each other for awhile.
So when I saw your videos popup, it was so nice and I mean
you say it's outside yourcomfort zone, but I felt like
they are a very authenticrepresentation of you and what
you're like.
And you're doing great on thispodcast maybe you've got more
skills there than you.
Martin Fenerty (25:50):
That's been very much my intention with those
videos.
Yeah.
So you, lots of stuff online isvery performative and I think
you there and my videos comewith the rough edges of me.
I'm not, it's not necessarilythat slick in comparison towards
content on the internet, butthat's very much my intention is
(26:10):
I'm trying to, I'm trying topresent me unfiltered.
So I'm, yeah, I'm glad that,that comes across that's
reflected in those videos.
And I guess in terms of in termsof my private practice, I am
gonna get around to training asa clinical supervisor.
So I'm very much just apractitioner at the moment.
(26:32):
But you, they supporting thestudent that we have on
placement and.
My years as an operationalmanager, I guess a very
different role, but my approachin terms of managers very, was
very much based around trying toget people to reflect and and
support people in their, in, intheir work in a similar way to
(26:55):
supervision in lots of ways.
So I'm excited to hopeful startthat training in the new year
and offer that as an extrastrand as well.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:04):
Fantastic.
That's exciting.
What we'll do is we'll make surewe put all your social media
websites and stuff in the shownotes so people can get in
contact with you and follow youif they're interested.
But Martin, thank you so muchfor being a guest on the
Therapist Connect podcast.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Martin Fenerty (27:20):
Thank you.
Thanks very much.
It's been lovely.
Thank you.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:23):
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to anotherepisode of the Therapist Connect
(00:02):
podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and I'm backthis month interviewing
therapists about their life andwork.
This month's guest is a longterm friend of mine, someone
I've known for a very long time.
Martin Fenerty.
Martin is based in Liverpool andhas been an accredited member of
BACP and been in practice since2012.
Previously working in the NHSand Charitable Services.
(00:25):
He's a person centeredcounselor, is also trained in
CBT and EMDR, and it's recentlyset up in private practice.
We discuss all those topics intoday's episode.
If you'd like to support thispodcast, please leave us a
review on your favorite podcastplatform.
I hope you enjoy this episode asmuch as I did recording it.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:45):
So Martin, welcome to the Therapist Connect
podcast.
It's lovely to have you onboard.
Martin Fenerty (00:50):
Yeah.
Lovely to be here.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:52):
So I'm gonna dive straight into the
questions.
So that's probably the best wayto get to know you a little bit
and I know you, but for ourlisteners to get to know you a
little bit.
Better.
So can you tell us a little bitabout how you came to be a
therapist then in the firstplace?
Martin Fenerty (01:05):
So my, all my working career, I've done
helping work.
It wasn't where I started.
I actually started as actuallystudied by Chemistry at
University.
I was meant to be.
I was meant to be a scientist,but I was hopeless.
Dr Peter Blundell (01:22):
That means you weren't meant to be a
scientist.
Martin Fenerty (01:24):
That's what, that's where I was directed,
shall we say, to be a scientistof some kind.
And so that didn't gotremendously well.
And so I had to rethink at theend of university really
realistically what I was doing.
So I started doing various bitsof voluntary work, so with a
(01:45):
local LGBT youth group and withthe Citizens Advice Bureau.
And that was probably the primething that got me into helping
was.
Work with Systems Advice Bureau.
'cause at the time, the trainingvolunteers was quite
considerable and went into sortof models of helping.
(02:09):
So that was an interestingintroduction and that was where
I started from.
And then things over the yearsmoved in different directions
and eventually became atherapist.
Dr Peter Blundell (02:21):
That's really interesting.
So was the stuff around thecitizen advice, was that like
advocacy work then and that typeof support?
Martin Fenerty (02:27):
Yeah it was advocacy and advice work.
So very directive.
But very much focused onactually let's compile all the
options that there are forsomebody and.
Let them choose.
It may be that they make thedecision that you don't think is
the wisest, but as long asthey've got all the information,
(02:50):
that's what you go with andthat's what you support them
with as far as you, as far asyou can.
Yeah.
So it was good.
You it was good.
First principles around helpingaround.
You have the resources and youoffer them to the person and
they make of them.
What they will, and you, so youpeople, especially with advice
(03:13):
work, you they're askingessentially legal questions
around benefits or housing ordebt.
The temptation is to be verydirective and you are to a
certain, you are to a setextent.
'cause you've got to berealistic and people want that.
But you are trying to givepeople, hand people some power
(03:33):
of some agency.
Within that.
And the advocacy is really, isyou, is that basic principles of
what does that person want tosay or need to say and you are
presenting it.
So yeah, many years of doingthat as a volunteer, but also as
a case worker.
So as a money advisor, and Iguess part of what I experienced
(03:55):
through that help was a bit offrustration that I was doing
lots of practical things, butwith debt, people would call
profoundly distressed'cause it'sa very stressful experience and
people are overwhelmed withcontact from creditors.
And so often I found myselffrustrated that I.
(04:19):
Felt I couldn't really do enoughfor them emotionally.
There's maybe actually quite alot I could do for them
practically.
Yeah.
But the burden of being in debtand the circumstances that led
up to that, whether that was jobloss and just the profound
changes in people's lives, itcan lead to that.
(04:39):
And you, that was probably theearliest point where I started
having a yearning to support.
People emotionally and wantingto help them find the resources
to, to have some resilience orsome power in their situation.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:00):
Did you train as a therapist while you were
still working at the CitizensAdvice Bureau then?
Martin Fenerty (05:06):
No.
So I did about 10 years inCitizens Advice Bureau,
eventually.
Eventually was managing abureau.
And I moved on from there.
I.
Because it was very, it was avery difficult role leading a
very small charity.
'cause each bureau was a, anindividual charity at that time.
(05:28):
And my experience as CitizensAdvice Bureau and my volunteer
work in the LGBT and HIV.
Community led me to getting towork in the NHS getting a job in
the NHS in a sexual healthoutreach service which gradually
transformed into an LGBT and sexworker support service.
(05:48):
My sort of career took me inthat direction.
And as well as doing healthpromotion, I was doing much more
emotional support, particularlyaround sexuality and gender and
working with women who wereworking on the streets.
Street-based sex work.
It was their experiences ofsexual violence, physical
(06:09):
violence, homelessness, abusiverelationships.
So during that time I did abasic counseling course, did
that basic 10 week course, andthen it went from there.
So I ended, yeah, I ended updoing my counseling training
whilst in that service.
(06:30):
And that's where I did myplacement in work.
So I was managing sort of dualrelationships at the time as
well.
That's where my start in therapybegan, which was work was
working with people from theL-G-B-T-Q community.
And women involved in sex work.
It's, I so for a period I workedin a local cancer charity.
(06:51):
Of course, some flowers.
There was big cuts with thisausterity in public health fund,
which impacted drugs, services,and sexual health services.
So my role in the in sexualhealth.
Changed quite profoundly and Iwent really behind the scenes
rather than delivering services.
So to keep up my practice, Iended up making links with that
(07:14):
charity and worked there for anumber of years.
And then it's gone full circlethe last couple of years I've
been working in.
Sahir House the local LGBTQ andHIV charity.
So I've come round, full circle.
And that's where I'm currentlyworking, employed.
Yeah, just branching out intosome private practice as well.
Dr Peter Blundell (07:35):
That's great.
Maybe talk about your privatepractice stuff a bit more in a
moment.
One of the things that struck methen when you were talking about
mentioned austerity and I wasjust, it just.
Made me think about'cause we'reboth in Liverpool and it made me
think about how many colleaguesI've seen over the years who
work in kind of the charitablesector, how much their career
(07:56):
paths have changed or shifted,not necessarily based on where
they wanted to go, what theywere planning to do, but based
on funding and services closingdown and money being shifted to
other services and stuff likethat.
And how people end up maybe takeunplanned routes.
Because of that, yeah.
Martin Fenerty (08:12):
That's probably reflected across the country,
but I think Liverpool is one ofthose places where that's been
quite acute.
It's recognized Liverpool hashad some of the most significant
cuts in local authority funding,and that's, that has had an
impact on the city that has hadan impact on the picture of the
(08:33):
support that's available topeople overall.
Dr Peter Blundell (08:36):
Definitely.
How would you define yourtherapeutic approach?
And has that changed over, overthe time you've been qualified?
Martin Fenerty (08:46):
So fundamentally, I'm a person
centered therapist.
That's what my training.
Was, and really that is where myheart lies.
Subsequently I have trained as acognitive behavioral therapist
as well, so I do provide someCBT and often integrate the two,
(09:11):
but that person centerednessreally runs.
Through my work whatever I'mproviding.
In the context I've worked,often people come to charitable
services having tried NHSservices and they just haven't
fit.
And sometimes they feel like CBTin from primary care just hasn't
(09:36):
been the right fit for them and.
I think it works well for lotsof people, but maybe the
restricted nature and therestricted model just doesn't
fit for some people.
They need to talk, they need theconnection, and I wonder
sometimes whether some of theprinciples of CBT are lost in
that bigger picture.
(09:58):
So I work.
I guess in a very personcentered way, if I am doing CBT
very much focusing on therelationship and the principle
of collaboration and being ledby clients and feeling the way
through that process.
I don't know.
Some people would argue that I'mcorrupting all the processes
(10:19):
altogether.
But I think it, it's, I thinkit's a, it's, I think it's a
reasonable way to work.
It's an ethical way to work.
I guess that's made me becomebolder in my person centered
approach.
So sometimes people come maybe abit skeptical about that
experience, previous experienceof therapy and.
(10:40):
So I, over time I've becomebold.
I have become bolder in myperson centeredness.
And you, I believe it is an act.
You, it's an activerelationship.
It's an active process.
And I think there are morecommonalities in lots of ways
(11:01):
between person centeredness andCBT than we articulate or have
thought through.
We just do them in different, wejust do them in different ways
or use different, maybe usedifferent language.
Dr Peter Blundell (11:17):
I wonder that, how do you see the wider
therapy community and howconnected you feel to other
therapists?
Martin Fenerty (11:24):
I think I'm in an interesting place.
Just branching out into privatepractice.
I.
I guess in terms of myconnection I'm conscious really
in some ways of feeling quiteisolated from other therapists,
so I'm.
Trying to reach out and makeconnections with other
(11:46):
therapists.
And it's not through lack ofsupervision support, but really
from a desire to try and makeconnections with peers.
Just have that peer support abit like you do when you are
working in an office.
You have it automaticallysitting next to you.
And I think you, we need thatpeer connection just from a
(12:08):
support point of view, the widertherapy community.
I think overall in this country,we're still not terribly
diverse.
I think it the stereotype of itbeing very white, middle class.
Profession, and that's you anddominated by women still stands.
(12:31):
I think that's not the same asit was maybe five, 10 years ago.
But I think there's the, there'sstill work to do around
diversity and look andthankfully some of that is
happening.
But it, yeah, there's more work.
There's more work to be donewith diversity, and that's not
(12:52):
just around protectivecharacteristics.
I think some of that is aroundclass as well.
You, I think that you therapydoes work best when people have
an opportunity, often to havetherapy from somebody who.
(13:13):
They recognize as having somesort of common experience or are
able to project maybe having hadsome common experience with
them.
It gives them that confidenceand that connection.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:24):
And I think think about class.
There's so many barriers forpeople entering into the
profession in terms of costs andthings like that.
Yeah.
Which I think really can have animpact on the class base of the
profession.
Martin Fenerty (13:34):
Yeah.
And I think there's also, Iguess from my own experience
actually with therapy, I, I camefrom a, I came from a relatively
middle class background, nothugely wealthy, but in
comparison to.
Most people in Liverpool,clearly middle class background
and some of the joy of my workhaving worked in the charitable
(14:00):
sector and with services thatare targeting particular needs
is that in therapy.
Lots of my middle classness hasbeen.
Beaten out of me for whatever abetter phrase.
It's very easy to hide behindyour polite, middle classness
and professionalism, and you,and that's actually not very
(14:25):
congruent.
It's really a nonsense.
I've had.
Clients call me out on mybullshit presently earlier in my
career, or just be reallypuzzled about why I am being the
presence that maybe I'm being inthe therapy room.
And that's been a huge influenceI guess on my practice around
(14:46):
actually I just need to behuman.
I just need to be me and I needto shed some of my layers.
And you intense the widertherapy community.
Sometimes I am frustrated in myinteractions with some
therapists where it feels likeI'm up against a wall of therapy
(15:09):
and therapy speak and therapy, atherapy attitude, and it's not
necessarily very human.
And it doesn't feel veryconnected.
So I think there is somethingaround we really do need to keep
doing the work around diversitybecause maybe there are shades
of us still being a bit, being abit Freudian and being that
(15:33):
frosty presence across, acrossthe room or a bit removed from
the rest of society.
We need more involvementactually, I think and keep on
trying to create that, thathuman element of therapy.
Just on the basis actually inprinciple of making it
accessible, of making it feellike it's something that people
(15:56):
can access and you relate to.
Dr Peter Blundell (16:00):
What's the biggest challenge that the
counseling and psych therapyprofession faces right now in
your opinion?
Martin Fenerty (16:07):
You we're, we are recording this after a
couple of weeks.
Quite high profile.
Media coverage, particularly in.
The Guardian around regulationand a drive for regulation.
And I think that's part of ourbiggest challenge.
(16:30):
And along with the the workaround SCoPEd and trying to
articulate the commonalities ofdifferent therapy roles and.
You gather together thedifferent strands of training
and making that making sense ofthat to other people and to
(16:51):
ourselves.
And I think though that is thebiggest challenge and I'm torn
in lots of ways I think.
We probably do need some moreregulation and particularly some
of the stories we've seen in themedia of people working really
(17:12):
quite un ethically and actuallynot even necessarily even being
trained as therapists, actuallywe would benefit maybe as a
profession to having thatprotected status and the means
to, to to demonstrate that weare part of that.
Part of a protected profession.
(17:33):
And the principles of actuallytrying to create a structure
around careers and providingclarity to.
Clients to the public, topotential funders around what do
all these terms mean?
What is what's the differencebetween a counselor and a
psychotherapist and a counselingpsychologist?
(17:57):
I don't think we all, weactually even necessarily
understand that ourselves.
In the push for that.
That's where I worry.
I worry about who gets leftbehind, how they get left behind
and potentially how narrow theprofession becomes.
(18:19):
And I think that's reallysomething that, that needs to be
considered really carefully.
And I don't think it'snecessarily clear from the work
that's happening in theprofession about how that is
being tend to and beingconsidered.
And there's a, you, there's arush to, to professionalize
(18:41):
without necessarily thinking,okay, you, you can define what
professional is without losingactually some of the richness of
that we have with the freedom ofnot being a regulated
profession.
So that can, that concerns meand it concerns me about what
talent and what perspectives wepotentially lose from within the
(19:05):
profession that actually helpit, it grow and evolve and
progress
Dr Peter Blundell (19:12):
idea, if I could close shop is coming up
for me in terms of does itcreate this narrow idea of what
it is that, that we do?
And then we don't have anycritique of that or openness to
explore what it possibly couldbe.
Martin Fenerty (19:24):
Absolutely.
And you, I think you, this is inparallel with the drive to
create a research evidence base,a greater research evidence base
around therapy.
You, and that bias towards CBTfrom person centeredness that is
based around.
(19:45):
The lack of apparent evidencebase.
I'm glad that there's a push toto look at person-centeredness
and counseling and pushresources to, to look at that
evidence base to demonstrate itseffectiveness.
But with that closed shop, withthat professionalism, maybe
there's a danger that we'vebecome hyper-focused then and
(20:08):
completely restricted on whatother people think is a credible
evidence-based and yet therapyis a felt experience.
It's a felt, it's a it's afeeling.
It's a feeling role.
A feeling profession.
It's a feeling process.
(20:30):
And there's something around usactually capturing or
experiences and articulatingthem and.
Enabling clients to articulatetheir experiences, which is also
part of that evidence base.
This isn't, therapy isn't likemedicine where you are providing
(20:52):
a pill under some really easyempirical parameters you can put
on that to determine its effecteffectiveness or its
acceptability.
This is, there isn't.
We don't have the benefit ofthat, we don't have the benefits
of doing precise operations onthe body.
(21:16):
It's a much more creativeprocess and collaborative
process.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:21):
And can you actually measure every aspect of
that?
Martin Fenerty (21:25):
You can't.
You can't.
You, and I think that's you inmy work in the charitable
sector, you.
We are in the HIV work, we're,we are funded through public
health and naturally we have toreport and quite rightly, report
on our activity, on our and oroutcomes.
(21:47):
But the challenge around that isactually if we do our measured
outcomes or core tens, sometimespeople show no change.
Sometimes people, their Core 10schools are actually worse.
They feel better.
And actually it's because theycan tolerate their distress
(22:10):
more, and that's the strengththat they have.
Or they have the courage to, toarticulate it more or more
clearly.
And that's really hard tocapture in measured outcomes.
That's really hard to capture,potentially in.
Evidence-based research and hardto articulate in terms of how
important that is.
Dr Peter Blundell (22:33):
And even the idea of a core 10, 10, 10
measures.
How many things shift and changewithin a therapeutic
relationship over the time?
It's way more than 10.
Yes.
Martin Fenerty (22:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you there is that the,there's an ongoing dialogue and
I think maybe it'll be neverending in some ways around just
fighting the corner that there,there is more to therapy than
(23:06):
those fundamental outcomemeasures.
And reduction of symptoms and.
Resolution of depression oranxiety are only very, in some
ways, narrow parts of whatpeople get out of therapy.
Dr Peter Blundell (23:22):
So Martin, that's the end of my questions.
I suppose my last one is can youtell us about what your future
plans are?
What's next?
I suppose setting up in privatepractice and focusing on that is
one of the big things
Martin Fenerty (23:34):
That's probably the biggest thing for me at the
moment.
It's very early days for me, soI've.
As well as working as atherapist.
I've worked as a manager in theNHS for 20 years, and I've just
finished working as anoperational manager.
It was time for me to end thatphase of my career.
(23:55):
So I'm in the very, very earlydays of private practice and
building that private practice.
And that's an interestingexperience.
Exciting and frightening inequal measure often.
So that's where I'm, that'swhere I'm developing.
I'm doing some work online andexploring that.
(24:17):
Means to support my privatepractice to just in terms of my
presence.
So I've created a social mediaprofile from a private practice
and I think as I've been doingsome videos on there and they've
often reflected things that justhave cropped up in my own life
(24:37):
or just issues that are around aparticular.
Time, but talking about them inrelation to therapy and people's
felt experience and maybeproviding sort of information
and education around it.
I'm not a huge social mediaperson for all my talk of
embracing technology, hostingselfies and doing videos isn't
(24:58):
my natural isn't my naturalenvironment.
So that's been really outside ofmy comfort zone and very much
I'm learning as I go along.
But I'm hoping that is an isanother way for people to get a
sense of who I am and how Imight be if I'm working.
With them.
So I'm, I'm reaching out topotential clients there for them
(25:21):
to get, have a safe way ofobserving me without actually
having to speak to me, and theymight have the courage to speak
to me.
Dr Peter Blundell (25:27):
We've known each other for a long time, but
we haven't seen each other for awhile.
So when I saw your videos popup, it was so nice and I mean
you say it's outside yourcomfort zone, but I felt like
they are a very authenticrepresentation of you and what
you're like.
And you're doing great on thispodcast maybe you've got more
skills there than you.
Martin Fenerty (25:50):
That's been very much my intention with those
videos.
Yeah.
So you, lots of stuff online isvery performative and I think
you there and my videos comewith the rough edges of me.
I'm not, it's not necessarilythat slick in comparison towards
content on the internet, butthat's very much my intention is
(26:10):
I'm trying to, I'm trying topresent me unfiltered.
So I'm, yeah, I'm glad that,that comes across that's
reflected in those videos.
And I guess in terms of in termsof my private practice, I am
gonna get around to training asa clinical supervisor.
So I'm very much just apractitioner at the moment.
(26:32):
But you, they supporting thestudent that we have on
placement and.
My years as an operationalmanager, I guess a very
different role, but my approachin terms of managers very, was
very much based around trying toget people to reflect and and
support people in their, in, intheir work in a similar way to
(26:55):
supervision in lots of ways.
So I'm excited to hopeful startthat training in the new year
and offer that as an extrastrand as well.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:04):
Fantastic.
That's exciting.
What we'll do is we'll make surewe put all your social media
websites and stuff in the shownotes so people can get in
contact with you and follow youif they're interested.
But Martin, thank you so muchfor being a guest on the
Therapist Connect podcast.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Martin Fenerty (27:20):
Thank you.
Thanks very much.
It's been lovely.
Thank you.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:23):
Thank you.
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