January 25, 2024 • 28 mins
Sam Hope is an experienced trainer who has been working in EDI/Anti-oppressive practice for over a decade. Sam mainly works in the third sector, education and offering CPD to therapists as well as being a visiting lecturer on several therapist training programmes in the UK. Sam’s background is as an accredited, person-centred therapist with specialisms in trauma, anti-oppressive practice and working with diversity. Sam previously worked in education settings and organisations supporting victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse, but now works as a therapist in private practice alongside their training work. The majority of Sam’s clients are members of the queer/LGBTQA+ community, with a particular focus of their work being multiply marginalised people, including trans, disabled and neurodivergent people.
Sam’s book Person Centred Counselling for Trans and Gender Diverse People is available from Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Sam is trans, queer, ace and non-binary themself as well as autistic, ADHD, and mobility impaired. Sam has been actively involved in community organising and facilitation of supportive LGBTQA+ spaces as well as advocacy work and consultancy.
Sam's website: https://sam-hope.co.uk/about-the-trainer/
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Social Media: @drpeterblundell
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Peter Blundell (2) (00:00):
Welcome to another episode as the
(00:01):
therapist connects podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and today I'mdelighted to be interviewing Sam
Hope.
Sam is a seasoned trainer,author, counselor, and
consultant with person centeredanti-oppressive values.
They are highly rated trainer ongender sexual and romantic
diversity.
You're a diversity disabilityand anti-oppressive practice.
(00:23):
They are a person centeredtherapist and clinical
supervisor that understands thesystemic factors that impact our
lives.
Sam is also an author of thebook person centered counseling
for trans and gender diversepeople, practical guide, and
much more besides.
If you enjoy this episode of thetherapist connect podcast,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:51):
Sam, thank you so much for coming on the
Therapist Connect podcast.
It's lovely to meet you and I'msure our listeners are going to
enjoy hearing a little bit aboutyour life and work.
Sam Hope (00:59):
I'm delighted to be here.
Thank you.
Dr Peter Blundell (01:02):
So the question I ask everybody, I
think it's a good kind ofopening question to kind of get
us started is what drew you tobecome a therapist in the first
place?
Sam Hope (01:10):
Gosh happy accident really.
So I was studying chemistry as amature student in my mid 20s,
when I I became chronically illwith what originally they
thought it was post viralfatigue syndrome.
(01:32):
Then they said ME, then CFS, andnow it's fibromyalgia.
But it's, you know, sort of thatkind of stable of chronic
illness.
And and I became very ill,couldn't, had to drop out of
university, couldn't work.
And I started doing Eveningclasses, just as a way of
(01:54):
getting back into the worldagain.
And I did an introduction tocounseling course, having had
therapy at university and foundit very helpful.
And, and I just got hooked, justit was, it was absolutely a sort
of, um, not a kind of plan tobecome a therapist.
I just, I did that.
And then I did my certificate.
(02:16):
And then I was like, Oh, Ithink, I think I'll go on and on
and on I went.
And then, yeah, so I qualifiedin 2004.
sO yeah, I've been a therapistfor 20 years now.
It's amazing.
Dr Peter Blundell (02:28):
It's really interesting.
It's a similar journey to me interms of, I hadn't planned to be
a therapist.
And so did that kind ofintroductory course and then
absolutely loved it and justkind of carried on with it.
So it's yeah, there's somethingin there, isn't it?
It kind of captures something.
Even a bit.
Yeah.
So 20 year career, so that'squite a long time.
(02:49):
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you've done over the,
over that period of time?
Sam Hope (02:54):
Yeah, so I started off As a, as a school counselor, and
I also, um, sort of earlycareer, and also, um, did a
stint as a counselingcoordinator for a domestic
violence service and so, and sothe two strands of my career
(03:17):
ended up being counseling andeducation, so I went on to be a
university counselor andcounseling survivors, which is
something that I still do a lotof now but Since about 2016,
I've been solely in privatepractice and I do about half of
my working week as, as atherapist and the other, well, a
(03:38):
therapist and supervisor, Ishould say, and, and the other
half as a trainer.
So I do an awful lot of whatpeople call it EDI training.
I, I'd like to call it antioppressive training, but yeah
working on sort of upskillingpeople around best practice.
Around access inclusion, etc.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:00):
Amazing.
So, so much different workthere.
How was it doing school basedcounselling and then kind of it
sounds like adult work as well.
So do you still do both typesnow or?
Sam Hope (04:09):
I still see a few young people.
I don't see so many in privatepractice.
But I mean, there's a realdemand for it.
But.
It's it's more challengingworking with young people
because of, you know, theautonomy issues that young
people have.
But but yeah, so I, I don'tthink I could do solely working
(04:30):
with youngsters, but.
I but I like to keep a smallamount of my practice working
with youngsters.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:38):
Amazing.
So could you tell us a littlebit more maybe about your anti
oppressive practice work and thetraining that you, that you do?
Sam Hope (04:45):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm actually working on a ane learning at the moment.
That sort of just looks atactually how we sort of do anti
oppressive therapy from a personcentered perspective.
And really I've been trying tohelp people understand the
(05:07):
relational aspects of antioppressive practice that often
when we are um, sort of failingmarginalized folks is because
we're failing to empathize withmarginalized folks.
We're failing to buildrelationship to marginalized
folks.
And often what happens in thedynamics, within workplaces,
within the therapy room is thatwe're inserting our own stories
(05:29):
about that person, or we're youknow, inserting sort of our
cultural indoctrination around,you know, ideas about that
person in between us and them,and it's sort of getting in the
way of us actually meeting thatperson.
So an awful lot of what what Ido, I train around mental health
and disability, trans, LGBT.
(05:52):
And then sort of more generallyon anti oppressive practice and
things like beyond unconsciousbias and that sort of thing.
So, yeah, what I'm generallytrying to do is sort of get wake
people up to the, to the ideaof, what they don't realize
they're doing what they're notaware they're inserting in
(06:14):
between them and other peoplewhen they're when they think
they're in relationship.
And often there's lots of sortof hidden hierarchies and sort
of hidden assumptions going onthat we kind of just need to
bring into our awareness.
So I think.
Therapists doing this work isquite useful because it's about
relationship and it's aboutawareness.
So so that's kind of why it'sbecome a big thing for me.
(06:38):
And obviously I do a lot aroundbecause I'm a trans person
myself.
I do a lot around, helpingpeople unlearn the things they
think they know about transpeople.
Which is unfortunately an awfullot at the moment.
Sort of, misinformation goingaround.
So, so I do quite a lot of thatwork too.
Dr Peter Blundell (06:56):
That's really interesting.
I was thinking from a personcentred perspective, I think,
how little, I think, is writtenfrom an anti oppressive, Place,
which I think is reallyproblematic that we haven't kind
of ventured there and kind ofhaven't got many people kind of
talk, but we've got peopletalking about but maybe not
people writing about it anddoing kind of some of the
training.
And the other thing I wasthinking about as well as
(07:17):
sometimes that risk with personcentered, and particularly in
training of that idea of, orwe're being empathic we've got
UPR, you know, therefore.
We're, as the therapist, we'reokay, you know, we're doing
everything we possibly can, youknow, for the client in front of
us, and it's like, yes, butactually, we could not be
empathizing because if we, thestuff that we don't know, or we
(07:39):
don't understand or is out ofour awareness, actually, we're
not connecting with it.
And that's the, that's thegrowing, the learning edge,
isn't it?
Sam Hope (07:46):
You know, absolutely.
And, you know, we could be in astate of incongruence because we
because we don't know what wedon't know.
And we don't realize that we areinserting our own ideas into,
into the relationship.
So, so there's this, you know,this idea that the the person
centered core conditions can be.
just turned, switched on very,very easily.
(08:08):
And I don't think people realizejust how much work it is to get
past their own kind of culturalstereotypes and indoctrination
to really meet the client.
So yeah, I would say personcentered is aspirational um,
and, and that it isn't Always aspossible as we think it is when
we're, when we're working acrossdifference.
And I think the sort ofobliviousness of the kind of
(08:31):
person centered approach to thatis a shame because ultimately
person centered is supposedlyabout power inequalities in the
room and dismantling hierarchybetween therapist and client.
And that, you know, that to meis the heart of person centered
practice.
And if people aren't activelydoing that and actively
(08:51):
understanding the hierarchiespresent and the power
inequalities present in societythen there's a whole lot that
they're just oblivious to that'sgoing on in the room that
they're not noticing.
And so I don't really understandwhy we're not.
Much more on enterprise topractice, except that, you know,
Carl Rogers was of his time andhe was kind of oblivious.
(09:13):
If you watch him counselingAfrican American client, you can
see how he was oblivious to someof the, some of the stuff that
was going on there and some ofthe.
Power inequalities going on.
Dr Peter Blundell (09:26):
Absolutely.
I completely agree with all ofthat.
And I think sometimes peopleassume that that those issues of
addressing power are, are withinthe theory.
And when they are within thetheory, but then we also have to
actively work at that as well.
And I think I don't think we'vedone a very good job of
discussing that in the personcentered community and looking
(09:48):
at the.
challenges and the difficultiesthat we face as person centered
therapists.
So I'll be looking out for yourtraining as it, when it arrives.
Sam Hope (09:57):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I think we've, we'vegot a lot.
Of work to do on this and, youknow, as a profession is it is a
whole profession issue.
I just think person centered orwhat's to be better.
But, but actually, I thinktherapy profession is probably
20 years behind social work andthat's a real shame because, you
(10:18):
know, we can.
Definitely stand to do better,especially when it's often
marginalized folks who are goingto be coming to see us because
they're under extra stress.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:28):
Absolutely.
And I think there is reallysomething important in that is
thinking about the therapyprofession and how far we still
yet to go compared to some otherprofessions that are based on
kind of social justice andempowering people.
So no, I completely agree.
So as well as doing trainingaround kind of LGBT and trans
issues.
You've also written a book,which is from a person centered
(10:49):
perspective.
The person centered counselingfor trans and gender diverse
people are practical guide.
For anyone out there who's notread it, can you tell our
listeners a little bit aboutwhat motivated you to write it?
I suppose we've kind of hintedat that already a little bit and
what they can expect from thebook.
Sam Hope (11:05):
Thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, I really loved writingthe book.
And I mean, what motivated me towrite it was the publisher
getting in touch, having read ablog that I'd written.
I gave a presentation at theMontford University and they
thought my take on personcentered, exactly what I was
just talking about, sort ofperson centered sort of approach
to working with diversity.
(11:25):
They thought, oh, that wouldmake a good book.
So I did a pitch.
And wrote the book but myintention when I wrote it was to
write something that was reallyaccessible, really easy so that
you know, clients pick it upsometimes as well trans people
(11:47):
pick it up.
And find it sort of helpful inunderstanding themselves.
So it's a real kind of basic ABCof trans, but, but not in any
way dumped down in the sense oflike trying to reduce it to this
one kind of trans person orthere's you know, it's really,
really simple to understand whata trans person is, really kind
(12:10):
of holding the complexity, butusing simple language.
Using sort of you know, sort ofnice, straightforward, clear
self reflective bits at the endof each chapter.
And, yeah, have you thoughtabout this, you know, aspect of
gender?
Have you thought about what itwould be like to work with this
particular kind of client?
(12:30):
So it's that sort of Very, yeah,practical tangible, concrete.
These are the sorts of thingsyou can do.
And the other thing that Ireally wanted to do was to bring
in all of the other strands ofintersectionality.
So it also speaks to genderequality, inequality in general.
(12:51):
It speaks to colonialism andracism and ableism and.
Gives a reasonable framework foralso thinking about anti
oppressive practice.
So hopefully if somebody readsthis, it will also make them
think about other aspects oftheir practice as well as
working with trans people.
So that's kind of what I want todo, wanted to do.
(13:13):
I think that I achieved that.
I think it's sort of, it's, youknow, it's, it's not, it's, it's
not a thick book, it's not,there's not a a lot to wade
through, but hopefully it'squite a thoughtful book and it
will get people thinkingdifferently about the ways that
they practice and also, youknow, sort of maybe getting
people thinking differentlyabout their processes of
(13:33):
thinking about their own genderas well.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:35):
Yeah, it's really good.
It's great reflections in there.
And I know we recommend it onall the different person
centered courses that I've teachon or have taught on in the
past.
So if anyone's not read it goand go and grab a copy.
I wondered shifting topicslightly a little bit I'm
wondering how you see the widertherapy community and how kind
of connected that you feel toother therapists within the
(13:57):
profession.
Sam Hope (14:01):
It's a question.
Yeah, I, I I have found itdifficult since coming out as
trans.
I think prior when peopleperceived me as as a lesbian
(14:22):
cisgender person I found itrelatively comfortable, um, I
didn't, I didn't face a lot ofdiscrimination.
But since coming out as trans, Ihave.
I've faced a lot ofdiscrimination in a lot of
(14:43):
contexts and really concerningstuff.
And I think I was surprised bythat.
I think I was surprised to seethere's a particular difficulty
maybe with, um, and I thinkthere are other, you know, this
isn't exclusive to being trans.
(15:04):
I also see I'm also aneurodivergent person.
I also see it towardsneurodivergence that, that maybe
because we come from aprofession that deals with sort
of ideas of psychopathology andneurodivergence and transness of
both being perceived aspsychopathology.
(15:25):
That maybe there is this sort ofidea that a trans and
neurodivergent person can't be atherapist, um, and or that
there, you know, that there issomething wrong with being this
kind of a person, um, in a waythat I suppose would have
happened very much, and stillhappens a bit for gay people,
but not as much.
(15:45):
So, you know, if you go back 10years, 20 years, people thought.
Homosexuality was a mentalillness and I, I guess gay
therapists weren't having aneasy time with it.
And I'm not saying it's allroses, but it's definitely got
better.
So yeah, I think there is thatsort of, there is still this
sort of understanding of you'rethe kind of person who would,
(16:07):
who is client, not therapist.
You're, you know, you're, youare very much in a one time
position in society and what areyou doing to, you know, treating
yourself as an equal.
And, and I've had a lot ofinfantilising attitudes and just
generally being patronised aswell.
It's just shocking levels oftransphobia that reflect the
(16:28):
society that we're in right now,where, you know, we've got a
prime minister who is, isspouting ridiculous nonsense
about trans people and transpeople are really a very much
scapegoated minority currently.
So I guess, you know, that'swhere we are and the profession
unfortunately reflects that thatit's.
Dr Peter Blundell (16:48):
I mean, I'm really, I'm really sad to hear
that, but I'm not surprised.
I think within the therapistconnect community and on our
social media platforms, some ofthe things that we have to try
and manage, or some of the worstthings that we have to try and
manage is transphobia fromwithin the profession and how
some therapists conductthemselves online talking about.
(17:09):
trans issues it's really, it'sreally difficult.
So yeah, I'm very sorry thatyou've, you've had to experience
that.
Sam Hope (17:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's hard.
It's, I had to leave the BACPbecause of transphobia.
I, I've, Um, can't really be insort of, like, mainstream, like,
Facebook groups and stuff likethat, because, you know, you
will inevitably come acrosspeople's sort of entitlement to
tell you that you don'tunderstand your own experience,
(17:37):
that trans people aren't real,that, you know, it's usually
some flavor of trans peoplearen't real, trans people don't
exist.
You're completely mistaken thattrans people are a real thing in
a hundred years research.
on trans people.
It's all nonsense.
Trans people just don't exist.
And yeah, it gets tiring prettyquickly.
(17:59):
Yeah, it's exhausting.
And it's particularly in thenews and social media, it's kind
of like a nonstop onslaught atthe moment of people debating
other people's lives andidentities when it's not even
related to their own experience.
And again, I mean, it goes backto what I was saying about the
complete empathy failure,because you know, sort of what I
(18:20):
know is trans people are at hugerisk if, if, if we're not
included, if we're not included,it affects our mental health,
and we're much more likely to beassaulted, we're more likely to
be murdered.
So, you know, we know that thereis a real risk, especially to
trans women of, of, of assault,of of murder, of hate crime of
(18:42):
higher suicide rates, all ofthose things if, if, if trans
women aren't treated as who theysay they are, treated with
respect and dignity And there'sloads and loads of evidence for
that.
Meanwhile, there is zeroevidence of any risk attached to
trans people being given civilrights.
There's, I mean, it's absolutelyproven that trans people gaining
(19:05):
civil rights causes no extradanger to anybody, including cis
women, including children.
There's no, there's, there isn'tan actual risk attached to trans
people being treated withdignity and respect.
buT I always find it veryinteresting that, you know, sort
of, I'm seeing the, the resultsof this, and trans people
(19:28):
experiencing these high levelsof risk of assaults, trans
people dying you know, I get tohear about that every day, and
there is an absolute silencearound, you know, concern for
the well being of trans people.
It just there, it just doesn'tregister for people that we
(19:49):
should be concerned that, youknow, trans women are much more
likely to be sexually assaultedthan cis women.
Trans women are much more likelyto be Murders, trans women are
much more likely to sort ofexperience sort of worse mental
health and as proven because ofthe way they're treated.
(20:10):
So, so our mental health is verycontingent on how we're treated
in society.
And this sort of minority stressmodel, you know, it's really
well proven now and yet peopleare still sort of saying, Oh,
well, trans people are mentallyill because they're trans.
It's like, no, it's, you know,well established that it's
because.
Because we're marginalized.
And I think it's reallyimportant, and I think that's
(20:32):
where social media can be a realproblem in terms of where people
are getting their informationand research, and things like
that, to kind of be up to datein terms of what is actually
happening, and what we know iskind of happening, and how
people are being marginalizedand oppressed in different
communities.
Yeah.
But, and again, because transpeople are infantilized, the,
the sort of, and anybody whoworks with trans people is
(20:55):
infantilized, you know, thisenormous body of research is so
well established.
And the, and the, and thetransphobes have about three
papers, all of which have beenvery, very carefully and well
debunked.
And yet, our body of researchcounts for nothing because it's
all seen as biased because it'spro trans.
So there's a sort of circularthing where people.
(21:15):
It doesn't matter how muchinformation you give people
that's correct.
They will still sort of lean onthe the far right, let's face
it, information that there is somuch of out there.
And, you know, I think people'sability to, um, see information
as biased and propaganda is, is,is a little bit thin sometimes
because, yeah, they I understandit because if I go on YouTube, I
(21:40):
can see you know, if I'm lookingup something trans related, the
first you know, sort of 20videos will be telling me that
lots of trans peopledetransition.
That's not true, but that's whatthe first few, you know, or
they'll be telling me that transwomen are dangerous predators or
whatever.
So I, I get that.
You know, algorithms on onlinewill lead people down a path of
(22:04):
misinformation, but people havegot to learn to be able to sift
through that information andrealize that it's propaganda and
Dr Peter Blundell (22:11):
pushing a moral panic as well.
It's into people's, you know,fears and all kinds of things,
whether it's not actually basedin reality.
Yeah.
Thank you for, for talking aboutthat.
This might link into some ofthose things we were talking
about there, but I suppose whatdo you think is the biggest
challenge that the counselingand psychotherapy profession
(22:31):
faces right now?
Sam Hope (22:35):
Yeah, I was thinking if I could.
think of something else to sayother than, other than anti
oppressive practice but I reallycan't because I feel like this
is actually at the heart of, I,you know, the political context
we're in now is, is, the socialcontext we're in is, is
alarmingly going towards theright, for whatever reason that
(22:58):
happens.
It's really, It's interestingpsychologically to see people
kind of following the herd onthis, you know, quite scary
path.
You know, we've asked in thepast sort of how do these things
happen and suddenly here theyare happening and we're seeing
things like, you know, ethniccleansing happening in our own
country.
You know, we've seen so manydisabled people dying under
(23:23):
government policy and peoplebarely blinking about it.
And.
And, and I guess for me, theprofession reflects the wider
context, but, you know, we'vealways had a role to be
countercultural to help bringstuff into awareness for, for,
for our clients and for our sortof corner of the world that
(23:46):
maybe aren't being thought aboutand talked about and, and it
seems like if we're leaving allof that political context, kind
of out of the therapy room andout of the training room, then
we are, you know.
Really failing to do our job,which is to really be awake.
And I think it's particularlyinteresting is how many
counselors are quote unquoteanti woke.
(24:06):
Just when you think about theword woke, it, you know, it is
about coming awake.
It's about really noticingwhat's going on in the world.
It's a wonderful.
Words that comes from the blackcommunity, and yet it's being
used as a negative and I findthat really surprising.
So, so I think that, yeah, ourjob, probably as therapists is
(24:28):
to wake up to become woke.
It's not, it's not an additionaloptional even add on, you know,
and choose to do or not do itshould be embedded within all of
the teaching and work that wedo.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I just I recently wrote thegender chapter for the Sage
(24:49):
handbook of counseling andpsychotherapy.
And I did a deep dive into theway gender comes into sort of
the evolution of the thecounseling profession and I was
looking at sort of conceptualit.
Sort of the, our conception ofthe family and and who is
(25:13):
responsible for social problemsand the way sort of wider social
contexts like class inequalityand racism have been is sort of
scapegoated into individualcommunity.
So instead of like if somebody,something goes wrong for
somebody, it's, it's the mum,it's the family, rather than
it's the wider social context,it's the what it's.
(25:34):
It's, you know, class, it'sIt's, you know, sort of
marginalization.
And, and I found that reallyinteresting the way that, you
know, sort of, I was kind oftaught, even as a person
centered therapist, there isthis sort of low level idea in
the running in the backgroundconstantly in our profession of,
if something went wrong, it wasprobably the mum, you know,
(25:56):
ultimately, it was like it was,it's how you were raised.
It was how you, it's how yourfamily were rather than the
wider social context in whichyou grew up and the wide, and
there's an incredibleobliviousness to how much the
wider social context that wegrow up in impacts how we were
raised, what it was like for afamily, how much stress our
(26:18):
family were under.
And all of that stuff.
So, so I find that reallyinteresting that just how
oblivious we are to this, thesereally big systemic factors.
Dr Peter Blundell (26:30):
It's really interesting.
I'm thinking about from a personcentered point of view, we do
talk about introjected values.
But then the focus tends to bethen actually on the
developmental process through.
the family and what went on withlike the main caregivers and as
you say we've got it there butwhy don't we talk about it more
those broader kind of impactswhen it is it is there we just
(26:51):
don't focus on it yeah yeah
Sam Hope (26:53):
it's really interesting that it was almost
there but it didn't quite get tothe systemic level yeah yeah
Dr Peter Blundell (27:00):
Sam, thank you so much.
I could talk to you all day.
It's been really absolutelyfascinating.
I suppose one last question iswhat are your future plans or
anything that you've got comingup next that you'd like to share
with us?
Sam Hope (27:11):
Okay, well, yeah I've got this anti oppressive
practice e learning that I'mworking on.
I have, I've also got an essayon my website, which is sam-
hope.
co.
uk around anti oppressivepractice, which people might be
interested in reading, which isabout sort of relational aspects
(27:31):
of anti oppressive practice.
I'm doing some counsellor CPD inthe new year that anyone can
book on to, which is aroundgender diversity and
neurodiversity.
So the intersection of those 2things well, the 1st 1 plus and
neurodiversity, and the 2nd 1sort of focuses more closely on
(27:55):
trans and autism because that'ssomething that people I think
are particularly interested inknowing more about, which I will
probably be putting informationabout on my website in due
course, which I'm hoping will bea supportive space for
therapists to come together andespecially marginalized
(28:15):
therapists.
So I'm hoping that that will beturning up in the near future as
well.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:20):
That's amazing.
Once you've got the fulldetails, you can share them with
us and we can put them in theshow notes so that people can
access that if they'reinterested.
And Sam, good luck for thefuture.
And thank you so much for beinga guest on the Therapist Connect
podcast.
Sam Hope (28:34):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
I've really enjoyed it.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:37):
Take care.
Dr Peter Blundell (2) (28:40):
If you enjoy this episode of the
therapist connect podcast,please leave us a review on your
favorite podcast platform.
Welcome to another episode as the
(00:01):
therapist connects podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and today I'mdelighted to be interviewing Sam
Hope.
Sam is a seasoned trainer,author, counselor, and
consultant with person centeredanti-oppressive values.
They are highly rated trainer ongender sexual and romantic
diversity.
You're a diversity disabilityand anti-oppressive practice.
(00:23):
They are a person centeredtherapist and clinical
supervisor that understands thesystemic factors that impact our
lives.
Sam is also an author of thebook person centered counseling
for trans and gender diversepeople, practical guide, and
much more besides.
If you enjoy this episode of thetherapist connect podcast,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:51):
Sam, thank you so much for coming on the
Therapist Connect podcast.
It's lovely to meet you and I'msure our listeners are going to
enjoy hearing a little bit aboutyour life and work.
Sam Hope (00:59):
I'm delighted to be here.
Thank you.
Dr Peter Blundell (01:02):
So the question I ask everybody, I
think it's a good kind ofopening question to kind of get
us started is what drew you tobecome a therapist in the first
place?
Sam Hope (01:10):
Gosh happy accident really.
So I was studying chemistry as amature student in my mid 20s,
when I I became chronically illwith what originally they
thought it was post viralfatigue syndrome.
(01:32):
Then they said ME, then CFS, andnow it's fibromyalgia.
But it's, you know, sort of thatkind of stable of chronic
illness.
And and I became very ill,couldn't, had to drop out of
university, couldn't work.
And I started doing Eveningclasses, just as a way of
(01:54):
getting back into the worldagain.
And I did an introduction tocounseling course, having had
therapy at university and foundit very helpful.
And, and I just got hooked, justit was, it was absolutely a sort
of, um, not a kind of plan tobecome a therapist.
I just, I did that.
And then I did my certificate.
(02:16):
And then I was like, Oh, Ithink, I think I'll go on and on
and on I went.
And then, yeah, so I qualifiedin 2004.
sO yeah, I've been a therapistfor 20 years now.
It's amazing.
Dr Peter Blundell (02:28):
It's really interesting.
It's a similar journey to me interms of, I hadn't planned to be
a therapist.
And so did that kind ofintroductory course and then
absolutely loved it and justkind of carried on with it.
So it's yeah, there's somethingin there, isn't it?
It kind of captures something.
Even a bit.
Yeah.
So 20 year career, so that'squite a long time.
(02:49):
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you've done over the,
over that period of time?
Sam Hope (02:54):
Yeah, so I started off As a, as a school counselor, and
I also, um, sort of earlycareer, and also, um, did a
stint as a counselingcoordinator for a domestic
violence service and so, and sothe two strands of my career
(03:17):
ended up being counseling andeducation, so I went on to be a
university counselor andcounseling survivors, which is
something that I still do a lotof now but Since about 2016,
I've been solely in privatepractice and I do about half of
my working week as, as atherapist and the other, well, a
(03:38):
therapist and supervisor, Ishould say, and, and the other
half as a trainer.
So I do an awful lot of whatpeople call it EDI training.
I, I'd like to call it antioppressive training, but yeah
working on sort of upskillingpeople around best practice.
Around access inclusion, etc.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:00):
Amazing.
So, so much different workthere.
How was it doing school basedcounselling and then kind of it
sounds like adult work as well.
So do you still do both typesnow or?
Sam Hope (04:09):
I still see a few young people.
I don't see so many in privatepractice.
But I mean, there's a realdemand for it.
But.
It's it's more challengingworking with young people
because of, you know, theautonomy issues that young
people have.
But but yeah, so I, I don'tthink I could do solely working
(04:30):
with youngsters, but.
I but I like to keep a smallamount of my practice working
with youngsters.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:38):
Amazing.
So could you tell us a littlebit more maybe about your anti
oppressive practice work and thetraining that you, that you do?
Sam Hope (04:45):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I'm actually working on a ane learning at the moment.
That sort of just looks atactually how we sort of do anti
oppressive therapy from a personcentered perspective.
And really I've been trying tohelp people understand the
(05:07):
relational aspects of antioppressive practice that often
when we are um, sort of failingmarginalized folks is because
we're failing to empathize withmarginalized folks.
We're failing to buildrelationship to marginalized
folks.
And often what happens in thedynamics, within workplaces,
within the therapy room is thatwe're inserting our own stories
(05:29):
about that person, or we're youknow, inserting sort of our
cultural indoctrination around,you know, ideas about that
person in between us and them,and it's sort of getting in the
way of us actually meeting thatperson.
So an awful lot of what what Ido, I train around mental health
and disability, trans, LGBT.
(05:52):
And then sort of more generallyon anti oppressive practice and
things like beyond unconsciousbias and that sort of thing.
So, yeah, what I'm generallytrying to do is sort of get wake
people up to the, to the ideaof, what they don't realize
they're doing what they're notaware they're inserting in
(06:14):
between them and other peoplewhen they're when they think
they're in relationship.
And often there's lots of sortof hidden hierarchies and sort
of hidden assumptions going onthat we kind of just need to
bring into our awareness.
So I think.
Therapists doing this work isquite useful because it's about
relationship and it's aboutawareness.
So so that's kind of why it'sbecome a big thing for me.
(06:38):
And obviously I do a lot aroundbecause I'm a trans person
myself.
I do a lot around, helpingpeople unlearn the things they
think they know about transpeople.
Which is unfortunately an awfullot at the moment.
Sort of, misinformation goingaround.
So, so I do quite a lot of thatwork too.
Dr Peter Blundell (06:56):
That's really interesting.
I was thinking from a personcentred perspective, I think,
how little, I think, is writtenfrom an anti oppressive, Place,
which I think is reallyproblematic that we haven't kind
of ventured there and kind ofhaven't got many people kind of
talk, but we've got peopletalking about but maybe not
people writing about it anddoing kind of some of the
training.
And the other thing I wasthinking about as well as
(07:17):
sometimes that risk with personcentered, and particularly in
training of that idea of, orwe're being empathic we've got
UPR, you know, therefore.
We're, as the therapist, we'reokay, you know, we're doing
everything we possibly can, youknow, for the client in front of
us, and it's like, yes, butactually, we could not be
empathizing because if we, thestuff that we don't know, or we
(07:39):
don't understand or is out ofour awareness, actually, we're
not connecting with it.
And that's the, that's thegrowing, the learning edge,
isn't it?
Sam Hope (07:46):
You know, absolutely.
And, you know, we could be in astate of incongruence because we
because we don't know what wedon't know.
And we don't realize that we areinserting our own ideas into,
into the relationship.
So, so there's this, you know,this idea that the the person
centered core conditions can be.
just turned, switched on very,very easily.
(08:08):
And I don't think people realizejust how much work it is to get
past their own kind of culturalstereotypes and indoctrination
to really meet the client.
So yeah, I would say personcentered is aspirational um,
and, and that it isn't Always aspossible as we think it is when
we're, when we're working acrossdifference.
And I think the sort ofobliviousness of the kind of
(08:31):
person centered approach to thatis a shame because ultimately
person centered is supposedlyabout power inequalities in the
room and dismantling hierarchybetween therapist and client.
And that, you know, that to meis the heart of person centered
practice.
And if people aren't activelydoing that and actively
(08:51):
understanding the hierarchiespresent and the power
inequalities present in societythen there's a whole lot that
they're just oblivious to that'sgoing on in the room that
they're not noticing.
And so I don't really understandwhy we're not.
Much more on enterprise topractice, except that, you know,
Carl Rogers was of his time andhe was kind of oblivious.
(09:13):
If you watch him counselingAfrican American client, you can
see how he was oblivious to someof the, some of the stuff that
was going on there and some ofthe.
Power inequalities going on.
Dr Peter Blundell (09:26):
Absolutely.
I completely agree with all ofthat.
And I think sometimes peopleassume that that those issues of
addressing power are, are withinthe theory.
And when they are within thetheory, but then we also have to
actively work at that as well.
And I think I don't think we'vedone a very good job of
discussing that in the personcentered community and looking
(09:48):
at the.
challenges and the difficultiesthat we face as person centered
therapists.
So I'll be looking out for yourtraining as it, when it arrives.
Sam Hope (09:57):
Thank you.
Yeah, no, I think we've, we'vegot a lot.
Of work to do on this and, youknow, as a profession is it is a
whole profession issue.
I just think person centered orwhat's to be better.
But, but actually, I thinktherapy profession is probably
20 years behind social work andthat's a real shame because, you
(10:18):
know, we can.
Definitely stand to do better,especially when it's often
marginalized folks who are goingto be coming to see us because
they're under extra stress.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:28):
Absolutely.
And I think there is reallysomething important in that is
thinking about the therapyprofession and how far we still
yet to go compared to some otherprofessions that are based on
kind of social justice andempowering people.
So no, I completely agree.
So as well as doing trainingaround kind of LGBT and trans
issues.
You've also written a book,which is from a person centered
(10:49):
perspective.
The person centered counselingfor trans and gender diverse
people are practical guide.
For anyone out there who's notread it, can you tell our
listeners a little bit aboutwhat motivated you to write it?
I suppose we've kind of hintedat that already a little bit and
what they can expect from thebook.
Sam Hope (11:05):
Thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, I really loved writingthe book.
And I mean, what motivated me towrite it was the publisher
getting in touch, having read ablog that I'd written.
I gave a presentation at theMontford University and they
thought my take on personcentered, exactly what I was
just talking about, sort ofperson centered sort of approach
to working with diversity.
(11:25):
They thought, oh, that wouldmake a good book.
So I did a pitch.
And wrote the book but myintention when I wrote it was to
write something that was reallyaccessible, really easy so that
you know, clients pick it upsometimes as well trans people
(11:47):
pick it up.
And find it sort of helpful inunderstanding themselves.
So it's a real kind of basic ABCof trans, but, but not in any
way dumped down in the sense oflike trying to reduce it to this
one kind of trans person orthere's you know, it's really,
really simple to understand whata trans person is, really kind
(12:10):
of holding the complexity, butusing simple language.
Using sort of you know, sort ofnice, straightforward, clear
self reflective bits at the endof each chapter.
And, yeah, have you thoughtabout this, you know, aspect of
gender?
Have you thought about what itwould be like to work with this
particular kind of client?
(12:30):
So it's that sort of Very, yeah,practical tangible, concrete.
These are the sorts of thingsyou can do.
And the other thing that Ireally wanted to do was to bring
in all of the other strands ofintersectionality.
So it also speaks to genderequality, inequality in general.
(12:51):
It speaks to colonialism andracism and ableism and.
Gives a reasonable framework foralso thinking about anti
oppressive practice.
So hopefully if somebody readsthis, it will also make them
think about other aspects oftheir practice as well as
working with trans people.
So that's kind of what I want todo, wanted to do.
(13:13):
I think that I achieved that.
I think it's sort of, it's, youknow, it's, it's not, it's, it's
not a thick book, it's not,there's not a a lot to wade
through, but hopefully it'squite a thoughtful book and it
will get people thinkingdifferently about the ways that
they practice and also, youknow, sort of maybe getting
people thinking differentlyabout their processes of
(13:33):
thinking about their own genderas well.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:35):
Yeah, it's really good.
It's great reflections in there.
And I know we recommend it onall the different person
centered courses that I've teachon or have taught on in the
past.
So if anyone's not read it goand go and grab a copy.
I wondered shifting topicslightly a little bit I'm
wondering how you see the widertherapy community and how kind
of connected that you feel toother therapists within the
(13:57):
profession.
Sam Hope (14:01):
It's a question.
Yeah, I, I I have found itdifficult since coming out as
trans.
I think prior when peopleperceived me as as a lesbian
(14:22):
cisgender person I found itrelatively comfortable, um, I
didn't, I didn't face a lot ofdiscrimination.
But since coming out as trans, Ihave.
I've faced a lot ofdiscrimination in a lot of
(14:43):
contexts and really concerningstuff.
And I think I was surprised bythat.
I think I was surprised to seethere's a particular difficulty
maybe with, um, and I thinkthere are other, you know, this
isn't exclusive to being trans.
(15:04):
I also see I'm also aneurodivergent person.
I also see it towardsneurodivergence that, that maybe
because we come from aprofession that deals with sort
of ideas of psychopathology andneurodivergence and transness of
both being perceived aspsychopathology.
(15:25):
That maybe there is this sort ofidea that a trans and
neurodivergent person can't be atherapist, um, and or that
there, you know, that there issomething wrong with being this
kind of a person, um, in a waythat I suppose would have
happened very much, and stillhappens a bit for gay people,
but not as much.
(15:45):
So, you know, if you go back 10years, 20 years, people thought.
Homosexuality was a mentalillness and I, I guess gay
therapists weren't having aneasy time with it.
And I'm not saying it's allroses, but it's definitely got
better.
So yeah, I think there is thatsort of, there is still this
sort of understanding of you'rethe kind of person who would,
(16:07):
who is client, not therapist.
You're, you know, you're, youare very much in a one time
position in society and what areyou doing to, you know, treating
yourself as an equal.
And, and I've had a lot ofinfantilising attitudes and just
generally being patronised aswell.
It's just shocking levels oftransphobia that reflect the
(16:28):
society that we're in right now,where, you know, we've got a
prime minister who is, isspouting ridiculous nonsense
about trans people and transpeople are really a very much
scapegoated minority currently.
So I guess, you know, that'swhere we are and the profession
unfortunately reflects that thatit's.
Dr Peter Blundell (16:48):
I mean, I'm really, I'm really sad to hear
that, but I'm not surprised.
I think within the therapistconnect community and on our
social media platforms, some ofthe things that we have to try
and manage, or some of the worstthings that we have to try and
manage is transphobia fromwithin the profession and how
some therapists conductthemselves online talking about.
(17:09):
trans issues it's really, it'sreally difficult.
So yeah, I'm very sorry thatyou've, you've had to experience
that.
Sam Hope (17:16):
Yeah, I mean, it's hard.
It's, I had to leave the BACPbecause of transphobia.
I, I've, Um, can't really be insort of, like, mainstream, like,
Facebook groups and stuff likethat, because, you know, you
will inevitably come acrosspeople's sort of entitlement to
tell you that you don'tunderstand your own experience,
(17:37):
that trans people aren't real,that, you know, it's usually
some flavor of trans peoplearen't real, trans people don't
exist.
You're completely mistaken thattrans people are a real thing in
a hundred years research.
on trans people.
It's all nonsense.
Trans people just don't exist.
And yeah, it gets tiring prettyquickly.
(17:59):
Yeah, it's exhausting.
And it's particularly in thenews and social media, it's kind
of like a nonstop onslaught atthe moment of people debating
other people's lives andidentities when it's not even
related to their own experience.
And again, I mean, it goes backto what I was saying about the
complete empathy failure,because you know, sort of what I
(18:20):
know is trans people are at hugerisk if, if, if we're not
included, if we're not included,it affects our mental health,
and we're much more likely to beassaulted, we're more likely to
be murdered.
So, you know, we know that thereis a real risk, especially to
trans women of, of, of assault,of of murder, of hate crime of
(18:42):
higher suicide rates, all ofthose things if, if, if trans
women aren't treated as who theysay they are, treated with
respect and dignity And there'sloads and loads of evidence for
that.
Meanwhile, there is zeroevidence of any risk attached to
trans people being given civilrights.
There's, I mean, it's absolutelyproven that trans people gaining
(19:05):
civil rights causes no extradanger to anybody, including cis
women, including children.
There's no, there's, there isn'tan actual risk attached to trans
people being treated withdignity and respect.
buT I always find it veryinteresting that, you know, sort
of, I'm seeing the, the resultsof this, and trans people
(19:28):
experiencing these high levelsof risk of assaults, trans
people dying you know, I get tohear about that every day, and
there is an absolute silencearound, you know, concern for
the well being of trans people.
It just there, it just doesn'tregister for people that we
(19:49):
should be concerned that, youknow, trans women are much more
likely to be sexually assaultedthan cis women.
Trans women are much more likelyto be Murders, trans women are
much more likely to sort ofexperience sort of worse mental
health and as proven because ofthe way they're treated.
(20:10):
So, so our mental health is verycontingent on how we're treated
in society.
And this sort of minority stressmodel, you know, it's really
well proven now and yet peopleare still sort of saying, Oh,
well, trans people are mentallyill because they're trans.
It's like, no, it's, you know,well established that it's
because.
Because we're marginalized.
And I think it's reallyimportant, and I think that's
(20:32):
where social media can be a realproblem in terms of where people
are getting their informationand research, and things like
that, to kind of be up to datein terms of what is actually
happening, and what we know iskind of happening, and how
people are being marginalizedand oppressed in different
communities.
Yeah.
But, and again, because transpeople are infantilized, the,
the sort of, and anybody whoworks with trans people is
(20:55):
infantilized, you know, thisenormous body of research is so
well established.
And the, and the, and thetransphobes have about three
papers, all of which have beenvery, very carefully and well
debunked.
And yet, our body of researchcounts for nothing because it's
all seen as biased because it'spro trans.
So there's a sort of circularthing where people.
(21:15):
It doesn't matter how muchinformation you give people
that's correct.
They will still sort of lean onthe the far right, let's face
it, information that there is somuch of out there.
And, you know, I think people'sability to, um, see information
as biased and propaganda is, is,is a little bit thin sometimes
because, yeah, they I understandit because if I go on YouTube, I
(21:40):
can see you know, if I'm lookingup something trans related, the
first you know, sort of 20videos will be telling me that
lots of trans peopledetransition.
That's not true, but that's whatthe first few, you know, or
they'll be telling me that transwomen are dangerous predators or
whatever.
So I, I get that.
You know, algorithms on onlinewill lead people down a path of
(22:04):
misinformation, but people havegot to learn to be able to sift
through that information andrealize that it's propaganda and
Dr Peter Blundell (22:11):
pushing a moral panic as well.
It's into people's, you know,fears and all kinds of things,
whether it's not actually basedin reality.
Yeah.
Thank you for, for talking aboutthat.
This might link into some ofthose things we were talking
about there, but I suppose whatdo you think is the biggest
challenge that the counselingand psychotherapy profession
(22:31):
faces right now?
Sam Hope (22:35):
Yeah, I was thinking if I could.
think of something else to sayother than, other than anti
oppressive practice but I reallycan't because I feel like this
is actually at the heart of, I,you know, the political context
we're in now is, is, the socialcontext we're in is, is
alarmingly going towards theright, for whatever reason that
(22:58):
happens.
It's really, It's interestingpsychologically to see people
kind of following the herd onthis, you know, quite scary
path.
You know, we've asked in thepast sort of how do these things
happen and suddenly here theyare happening and we're seeing
things like, you know, ethniccleansing happening in our own
country.
You know, we've seen so manydisabled people dying under
(23:23):
government policy and peoplebarely blinking about it.
And.
And, and I guess for me, theprofession reflects the wider
context, but, you know, we'vealways had a role to be
countercultural to help bringstuff into awareness for, for,
for our clients and for our sortof corner of the world that
(23:46):
maybe aren't being thought aboutand talked about and, and it
seems like if we're leaving allof that political context, kind
of out of the therapy room andout of the training room, then
we are, you know.
Really failing to do our job,which is to really be awake.
And I think it's particularlyinteresting is how many
counselors are quote unquoteanti woke.
(24:06):
Just when you think about theword woke, it, you know, it is
about coming awake.
It's about really noticingwhat's going on in the world.
It's a wonderful.
Words that comes from the blackcommunity, and yet it's being
used as a negative and I findthat really surprising.
So, so I think that, yeah, ourjob, probably as therapists is
(24:28):
to wake up to become woke.
It's not, it's not an additionaloptional even add on, you know,
and choose to do or not do itshould be embedded within all of
the teaching and work that wedo.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I just I recently wrote thegender chapter for the Sage
(24:49):
handbook of counseling andpsychotherapy.
And I did a deep dive into theway gender comes into sort of
the evolution of the thecounseling profession and I was
looking at sort of conceptualit.
Sort of the, our conception ofthe family and and who is
(25:13):
responsible for social problemsand the way sort of wider social
contexts like class inequalityand racism have been is sort of
scapegoated into individualcommunity.
So instead of like if somebody,something goes wrong for
somebody, it's, it's the mum,it's the family, rather than
it's the wider social context,it's the what it's.
(25:34):
It's, you know, class, it'sIt's, you know, sort of
marginalization.
And, and I found that reallyinteresting the way that, you
know, sort of, I was kind oftaught, even as a person
centered therapist, there isthis sort of low level idea in
the running in the backgroundconstantly in our profession of,
if something went wrong, it wasprobably the mum, you know,
(25:56):
ultimately, it was like it was,it's how you were raised.
It was how you, it's how yourfamily were rather than the
wider social context in whichyou grew up and the wide, and
there's an incredibleobliviousness to how much the
wider social context that wegrow up in impacts how we were
raised, what it was like for afamily, how much stress our
(26:18):
family were under.
And all of that stuff.
So, so I find that reallyinteresting that just how
oblivious we are to this, thesereally big systemic factors.
Dr Peter Blundell (26:30):
It's really interesting.
I'm thinking about from a personcentered point of view, we do
talk about introjected values.
But then the focus tends to bethen actually on the
developmental process through.
the family and what went on withlike the main caregivers and as
you say we've got it there butwhy don't we talk about it more
those broader kind of impactswhen it is it is there we just
(26:51):
don't focus on it yeah yeah
Sam Hope (26:53):
it's really interesting that it was almost
there but it didn't quite get tothe systemic level yeah yeah
Dr Peter Blundell (27:00):
Sam, thank you so much.
I could talk to you all day.
It's been really absolutelyfascinating.
I suppose one last question iswhat are your future plans or
anything that you've got comingup next that you'd like to share
with us?
Sam Hope (27:11):
Okay, well, yeah I've got this anti oppressive
practice e learning that I'mworking on.
I have, I've also got an essayon my website, which is sam-
hope.
co.
uk around anti oppressivepractice, which people might be
interested in reading, which isabout sort of relational aspects
(27:31):
of anti oppressive practice.
I'm doing some counsellor CPD inthe new year that anyone can
book on to, which is aroundgender diversity and
neurodiversity.
So the intersection of those 2things well, the 1st 1 plus and
neurodiversity, and the 2nd 1sort of focuses more closely on
(27:55):
trans and autism because that'ssomething that people I think
are particularly interested inknowing more about, which I will
probably be putting informationabout on my website in due
course, which I'm hoping will bea supportive space for
therapists to come together andespecially marginalized
(28:15):
therapists.
So I'm hoping that that will beturning up in the near future as
well.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:20):
That's amazing.
Once you've got the fulldetails, you can share them with
us and we can put them in theshow notes so that people can
access that if they'reinterested.
And Sam, good luck for thefuture.
And thank you so much for beinga guest on the Therapist Connect
podcast.
Sam Hope (28:34):
Thank you very much for inviting me.
I've really enjoyed it.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:37):
Take care.
Dr Peter Blundell (2) (28:40):
If you enjoy this episode of the
therapist connect podcast,please leave us a review on your
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.