May 30, 2024 • 31 mins
This episode focuses on therapists' experiences of silence in counselling and psychotherapy. You can find more details about the guests below, or listen to the episode of the #TherapistsConnect podcast where they are featured.
Sam Hope is an experienced trainer who has been working in EDI/Anti-oppressive practice for over a decade. The majority of Sam’s clients are members of the queer/LGBTQA+ community. Sam’s book Person Centred Counselling for Trans and Gender Diverse People is available from Jessica Kingsley Publishers. Sam is trans, queer, ace and non-binary themself as well as autistic, ADHD, and mobility impaired.
Sara Mathews is a Senior Accredited counsellor registered with the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy (BACP). She is a qualified Counselling Supervisor and Trainer. Sara headed up bereavement services in the voluntary sector for many years before setting up her Bereavement Counselling practice.
Dianne Sotomey is the bestselling author of her new book “Check Your Thoughts! Your Life Depends on It”! - How your thoughts shape your everyday life and who you become. She is also a UKCP-registered psychotherapist, clinical supervisor and trainer. Dianne is a visiting tutor at the TA East Institute for Psychotherapy and Counselling and currently resides in the tranquil countryside of Suffolk, England.
Maxine Walsh has been a counsellor and psychotherapist for 11 years with four years of experience in private practice.
Dr Fraser Smith is a chartered psychologist registered with the HCPC and BPS with years of experience and training working within therapy.
William Pullen is a qualified psychotherapist registered with the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (BACP). William has a book and an app that explores the relationship between running and therapy.
Maria Sorokopud is an experienced GP who specialises in Gastroenterology and is a Transactional Analysis Psychotherapist.
Rachel Jane Cooke (she/they) is a queer, integrative psychotherapist, supervisor and educator from Ireland, in practice since 2009.
Dr Peter Blundell (he/him/his) is an academic, researcher, lecturer, trainer, and consultant. He is a counsellor/psychotherapist, a social worker, and a senior lecturer at Liverpool John Moores University.
#TherapistsConnect is a platform for connecting therapists.
Website: www.Therapists-Connect.com
Twitter: @Therapists_C
Instagram: @TherapistsConnect
Facebook: @TherConnect
Origins of #TherapistsConnect
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Peter Blundell (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
the therapist connect podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and today we'vecreated an episode with a little
bit of a difference.
So over the last 12 months, I'vebeen asking our podcast guests
what they think about the use ofsilence in therapy.
So, this is a topic that oftencomes up with students when
they're at the early stages oftheir training.
(00:22):
And sometimes I find studentsfind it difficult to sit with
silence.
They have questions about theappropriateness or length of
silences in their therapeuticwork.
So I thought it might beinteresting to explore this with
our podcast guests.
And we've got a selection ofthose.
Questions and answers in thisepisode today.
So it's been an interestingepisode to work on as I've come
(00:43):
back to think about an editthese clips together.
It's made me reflect on some ofmy own therapeutic work with
clients, my own comfortablenessand challenges with silences.
If you'd like to join thisconversation, and you can tag us
on social media or use ourhashtag.
And as always, we'd reallyappreciate it.
If you could leave us a reviewon your favorite podcast
platform.
(01:03):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
So for this first clip, it's athrowback to an interview.
I completed with Sam Hope.
Sam is an experienced trainerwho has been working with EDI
anti-oppressive practice forover a decade.
They may be working the thirdsector.
In education and offering CPD asa therapist, as well as being a
(01:25):
visiting lecture on severaltherapists, training programs in
the UK.
Sam's background is anaccredited person centered
therapist with specialisms intrauma anti-oppressive practice
and working with diversity.
Sam's book person centeredcounseling for trans and gender
diverse people is available fromJessica Kingsley publishers.
You can hear a full interviewwith Sam, where they talk about
(01:46):
their life and work in ourpodcast episode from January.
But here's Sam reflecting ontheir experiences of silence in
therapy.
Sam Hope (01:55):
I feel like I talk about this a lot with my
supervisees.
Um, and I was interested.
Um, and I can't remember who itwas.
Somebody or other has done someresearch about how clients
really don't like silence asmuch as therapists think they
do.
Um, which I think is veryinteresting research, but I feel
(02:17):
like it misses something.
And I feel like this wholeconversation about silence
misses something because.
And I don't know whether this isyour experience, um, but it's
certainly mine, that there aredifferent qualities of silence
with different clients.
And for me, there's a, you know,yes, I have to learn to be
(02:41):
comfortable with silence, but Ialso have to learn to read my
discomfort.
Um, is my, am I still inconnection with my client in
this silence?
Because if I'm not in connectionwith my, with my client in this
silence, then the silence isstill there.
Totally useless and possiblydamaging.
(03:02):
Am I holding my client still?
Is my client floundering in thesilence?
Do they need something from me?
Um, you know, am I leaving thesilence for them?
Or am I leaving the silence?
Because somebody during mycounseling training said I have
to learn to be comfortable withsilence and I interjected that
so hard that I just leave asilence, no matter what and I
(03:27):
don't read the room.
So for me.
There is something reallyimportant about presence and
connection and knowing if I'mwith my client in that silence
and knowing, having a sense ofwhat's going on for that client.
It's a bit like, you know, whenthey, they say to you when
you're training.
(03:47):
If you're asking a client, how,how do they feel, then your,
your empathy is failing.
Yeah, like, it's not enough to,um, just have some kind of off
the shelf idea of silence.
Good.
You have to know what thissilence means and what is going
on for that client in that, inthat silence.
Um, So, yeah, for me, it's an itdepends question, really.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:15):
Um, I love that when you were talking, I
was thinking about the idea of,like, the texture of a silence.
Because if you say silence, itcan, it can create this image,
you know, this blank space.
But actually, there is somethinggoing on within that, both
within me as the therapist andthe client, um, and trying to,
and between us as well, Isuppose actually trying to get
(04:37):
to a point where you understandwhat is going on, um, so you
know how to use or not usesilences, um, or how to be or
not be in silences is, um, Ithink kind of what you were
trying to, trying to say there.
Sam Hope (04:49):
Absolutely, absolutely, and you know I have
some clients who, you know,there is a lot of silence.
Um, and then I have otherclients, and particularly I work
with a lot of people with ADHDand, and, and often silence
means that mind has, and youknow, this happens to me as a
client too.
Um, and the mind's just sort ofgone off somewhere and, and it,
(05:12):
and if I leave them, then willflounder.
And, and knowing the differenceis really important.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:16):
Oh, it was Sam describing their thoughts on
silence and therapy.
It's interesting.
As I've been editing thispodcast, I use some kind of
software that also helps me withthe process.
It's new to the series of thetherapist connect podcast
episodes.
And one of the features on it isthat every time I go to edit
something like it asks me, do Iwant to remove the long silences
(05:39):
automatically from the recorded,interviews?
So it automatically takes themout of, people's speech.
And I usually just click.
Yes.
And, except, those silences betaken out, to help with the flow
of the podcast.
And sometimes we're trying tomake it short and.
Punchy so that people can listento it quickly, wherever they
are.
But as I've been editing thisepisode, I've just, questioned a
(06:02):
little bit of why that I feelthe need to do that.
And so I've left some of those,longer silences in, I'm
particularly.
In this next clip, where Sarahtalks about her relationship
with silence.
From your, experience as a, as agrief counsellor, could you tell
us your experience and yourunderstanding of, the
therapeutic use of silence intherapy sessions?
Sara Mathews (06:24):
What I think is at the heart of grief counselling,
and I'm sure lots of other kindsof counselling as well, is
around people having to struggleto find their own meaning, and
make sense of what is thepurpose and point of me, and
where am I in this new landscapethat I find myself living in,
and I think that, is probablycore to what might be going on
(06:48):
for lots of people, for example.
And if you then think about how,how might you therapeutically
start to create the space forthat, you're not going to fill
it with words.
And I'm quite chatty.
I would say it's probably on mylist of things to constantly
keep an eye on because I startchatting away and making jokes
and all that kind of stuff.
(07:09):
So really trying to bring myselfdown all the time.
To hold a silence, um, so thatmeaning can emerge because it's
not my meaning for sure.
It's the other person's meaningthat needs to emerge.
And the moment you say anything,I have learned that even if even
an in judicious at the wrongtime can shape and take a client
(07:30):
somewhere.
You know, that isn't perhapswhere they need to go.
So really working hard on justholding the space.
I'm not uncomfortable withsilence.
I just have a naturally chattynature, I think, which I just
need to be aware of.
And I guess all therapists needto know who they are in the room
(07:51):
and how they are.
So I think silence is, um, Oh mygod, it is rich with
possibilities, uh, and it'sthrough the silence, and, and
silence allows you to feelthings in a way that is, you
know, different.
And I think interestinglyenough, being silent with
someone else whilst they feelit, and possibly you feel some
(08:14):
of it as well, is anextraordinary transformative
potential in that.
So I really believe in thetransformative possibilities of
silence.
Um, and I mentioned earlier thatI like a bit of poetry and I
wanted to, um, share a reallyshort poem and just, But just
offer it now, if I might, andthen just hold a second or two
(08:36):
of silence at the end so that wecan just see what that feels
like.
Is that right?
Dr Peter Blundell (08:40):
That would be lovely.
Okay,
Sara Mathews (08:42):
cool.
So poem.
Poem is by someone called KateFox, and it's really very short,
and I will say one sentenceabout what I think it is rather
than too much, because I thinkit's about the silence
afterwards.
But I think this is about thecourage of the bereaved.
That's all I'm going to say.
So the poem is called Portrait.
(09:04):
Something brave in reading aperson's light To make a still
of their image Which catchesthem in flight Something brave
(09:26):
in reading a person's light Tomake a still of their image
Which catches them in flight Andthat courage to actually look at
what you're feeling And look atwho's died And look at what was
really going on There certainlyis something brave in that And I
think that emerges.
You can hear my voice.
I find it very moving throughthe silence that you can hold
(09:49):
inside yourself just to feelthose words.
So that I thought I wanted toshow you, demonstrate to you
what silence means rather thantalk too much about it.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:01):
Thank you, Sarah.
I felt really moved hearing,hearing that and then in the
silence as well.
Sara Mathews (10:07):
What is that courage?
God, it's extraordinary, isn'tit?
Absolutely extraordinary.
And,
Dr Peter Blundell (10:11):
and going back to what you were saying
earlier about the, almost likethe creative possibilities of
the silent because so much canpotentially happen in that
moment.
And although it might beunspoken, it's still, it's still
felt or thought.
Sara Mathews (10:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Peter.
That felt really connectingbetween us as well.
I hope that communicates toother people.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:33):
If you want to hear more from Sarah, you'd
need to go back to the episodewe recorded, which was released
in April, 2023.
Sarah is.
Uh, senior accredited counselorregistered with the BAC P she is
a qualified counselingsupervisor and trainer.
She's also headed up bereavementservices in the voluntary sector
for many years before setting upher bereavement counseling
(10:53):
practice.
Then our next clip, um, is takenfrom my interview with Dianne
Sotomey Which was released inSeptember, 2023.
They announced the best-sellingauthor of check your thoughts,
your life depends on it.
How your thoughts shape youreveryday life and who you
become.
She is also a UK CP, registeredpsychotherapist, clinical
supervisor and trainer.
(11:15):
Diane is a visiting tutor at theTA east Institute for psych
therapy and counseling, andcurrently resides in the
tranquil countryside of Suffolk.
In this clip, Dianne reflects onwhat the potential benefits of
silences are for clients.
Dianne Sotomey (11:30):
I do feel like silence is necessary because it
can be a way of drilling thework with your client a little
bit deeper in the sense of if,if you were to ask a question
and sometimes Um, just leavethat question, a powerful
(11:56):
question with a client, it canallow them to take a back step
to stop and reflect and actuallycome up with something that
might have been bubbling thatthey hadn't quite thought about.
But because of that silence, itcreates the space for that to
(12:17):
emerge.
So, and I think it can also workjust as well for the therapist
because it enables.
One to stop and think, okay,where am I?
What's going on?
What is needed right now?
So I think silence is reallyuseful for both the client and
(12:39):
the therapist, but I think itcan deepen the work for both.
Dr Peter Blundell (12:43):
Absolutely.
It's almost like a pause in theinteraction, but space to think
uh, for both people, the clientand the therapist.
Yes.
Um, and, and possibly newinsights come from that or
that's it, or just new feelingsor reflections as you think
about the question or the Yes orthe, or what's happening in that
silence.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dianne Sotomey (13:03):
And new shifts.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:04):
Yeah.
New shift and changes.
Yeah.
Whilst it's important to talkabout the benefits of silences
within our therapeutic work.
I think it's also important thatwe're honest about the
difficulties and the challengesthat can come up.
And this next clip, Maxine talksabout the challenges that she
faced when thinking about andusing therapeutic silence.
Maxine Walsh (13:23):
I was saying that I wasn't going to think about
this question too much because Iknow that I could have.
So, I mean, it was, I remember,I remember in training.
You know, we, we did do a lot ofwork around silence, you know,
the use of silence in thetherapeutic space.
And I'm going to put my hands upand be really honest and say
(13:45):
that as a new accreditedpsychotherapist, I found it
really difficult.
Um, I think, you know, as wellas that because it was during
the pandemic and I think onlineit's even more uncomfortable
(14:06):
than it is face to face.
I think the thing about the useof silence is that not only does
it give the, the, the client achance to think it also gives
the counselor a chance to think.
And that's, that's not always agood thing.
(14:30):
Because what as a, as a newcounselor for me, rightly or
wrongly, that space was filledwith, Oh, Oh, Oh, what?
What do I need to do?
What can I do?
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
And a little bit of panic.
And it took a while and a bit ofsupervision and a bit of
introspection to, to settlemyself with that and to be okay
(14:53):
with that.
And I think that's probably aprocess that a lot of people go
through.
Dr Peter Blundell (14:57):
Maxine, I'm so happy that you said that
because teaching students allthe time and seeing the
difficulty with silence, it'skind of one of the reasons why I
was interested in askingdifferent therapists opinions on
this was because how difficultsilence is, I know, can be for
some people.
people.
And so I think people listeningto this who are, who are just
(15:17):
coming, you know, in training orjust kind of becoming qualified
and thinking, Oh my goodness,like, you know, having
difficulties with it to hearthat other therapists have gone
through that, that process, Ithink is really, it's really
important.
Maxine Walsh (15:30):
And it's a pro it is a process.
It is a process.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Peter Blundell (15:36):
And if you want to hear more from Maxine,
you can check out our episodefrom October, 2023, where I
interviewed her about a life andwork.
Maxine has been a counselor andpsychotherapist for over 11
years with a over four yearsexperience in private practice.
She has been accredited with theIrish association of counselors
and psychotherapists since 2019.
(15:56):
And up until the end of 2023,Maxine was also one of the
therapist's connect volunteerswho was running our Twitter
accounts on a Mondays andMaxine.
We still miss you on theaccounts.
So.
We wish you, well, whereveryou're doing now.
And our next clip we hear fromDr.
Fraser Smith, who is acounseling psychologist and
clinical director for psychologyScotland.
There was a therapist connectpodcast episode released
(16:19):
interviewing him in May, 2023.
You can go back and check thatout.
If you want to hear more fromhim.
Fraser is a charteredpsychologist, registered the
HCPC and BPS with years ofexperience and training, working
within therapy.
He specializes in working withmen's mental health and has
worked in therapy with men.
researched the field and becomea recognized speaker within this
area for a number of years.
(16:40):
Can you tell us your experienceand your understanding of, um,
the therapeutic use of silence,uh, in your therapeutic
sessions?
Fraser Smith (16:49):
Yeah, when, when that question comes up, the
first feeling I have is dread.
I think that, you know, for me,and I'll explain what that is,
it's because when I wastraining, and I think again,
when, when studying that, theidea of silence in a therapeutic
relationship meant you weredoing something wrong.
And, you know, when a clientsits and stares at you, waiting
(17:10):
for you to say the next thing,or when you don't know what to
say, that often kind of, itsparks that kind of, um, That
initial stages of training dreadfor me, but as my experience is
built, you know, I've understoodthe value in silence a lot more
for me.
The importance of it really kindof stems from not how to best
word.
That's not saving my clients assuch are allowing clients to
(17:36):
feel that they need to be saved.
And I think.
That is something I've wrestledwith a lot and still get wrong
and still and still grapple withthis idea that it's not okay to
be silent in that therapeuticspace because I need to be
saving and I need to be doingthe work and I need to be
(17:56):
pulling my clients through tochange and actually the silence
can really reveal I think what'smost important to that client
and and also the fact that Ibelieve in I'm a huge believer
in the individual in the in thepower of autonomy and that that
individual can can overcometheir difficulties and I think
that's explored in silence oftenand I think there's also
(18:18):
something like I do a lot of andthis is just some for me I do a
lot of work in men's mentalhealth.
And what I've come to know,excuse me, what I've come to
know with the men I see intherapy is that, um, silence is
something that they find veryuncomfortable.
Maybe that's the demographic,maybe that's the geography of
the West of Scotland here.
Um, but there's something aboutdiscomfort in that silence and,
and not having something to sayand not saying something and
(18:42):
being in connection inrelationship with somebody that
can feel uncomfortable for, forsome people in general, but I
also experienced it particularlywith men at times.
I, I've, I've tried to utilizesilence much more rather than
trying to save these people andagain, pull'em through to
change.
How can I sit with that silenceand explore, explore the
discomfort of it as well, bothin me and in my client.
(19:04):
And, um, I've, I've understoodthe value.
It is come from a place of realdread at first and fear that I
would have nothing to say thatmy clients would've, nothing to
say to, to one of recognizingreal value and therapeutic
growth in it.
So, um, yeah, it's, it is kindof, um.
It's grown in its importance forme over my career, so to speak.
Dr Peter Blundell (19:22):
I think that's really interesting and
it, um, reminds me now of kindof being a, uh, a lecturer
sitting in personal developmentgroups and kind of the silence
comes along and students kind ofsat there going, Oh God, like,
what is this?
Like we're not doing anything.
I think it's so, it's sohorrendously awful.
And so, so for me, there's likethat, that, that dual thing of
like, yes, being able to say,comfortably in silence, but then
(19:45):
also, like, silences can, can,people can suffer like in
silence as well, you know, andthey can be quite cruel.
So it's, it's a real difficultbalance, I think.
Fraser Smith (19:55):
It really is.
It's a, it's a great point.
You know, the idea of sittingand staring at someone, I think
that's a wonderful point,actually, it's a very fine
balance because the idea ofsitting and staring at someone
for therapy hour, or, or, youknow, When somebody has been,
you know, viscerally tortured inthat silence, you know, that's,
I think, something very much toavoid, but I also think it's
(20:16):
within context, you know, whenwe're exploring, for example,
maybe, maybe if we're utilizinga trauma model, and we're
exploring stability, or we'reexploring, exploring an element
of processing of certaintraumas, and certain things are
said, or certain things areunpacked and explored, I think
silence is more important thanever to allow a space for
healing, particularly withintrauma work, where it's not
(20:38):
about just seeing the next thingand getting through the next
stage of processing or gettingthrough to that reintegration
stage or establishing morestability.
Actually, the silence is ahealing place for when certain
things of processing are doneand spoken about.
So, yeah, I think you make avery good point.
It's not a case of just sittingand torturing people, but it's
(20:59):
using silence in the right wayat the right time in my eyes.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:03):
I had a similar conversation with
William Pullan where wediscussed actually his silences
always beneficial for theclient, or could there be times
when actually we really need tothink about the use of silences.
I interviewed William in July,2023.
So you can go back and listen tothat episode.
If you're interested, William isa qualified psychotherapist
registered with BAC P you offershort and long-term
(21:26):
psychotherapy to adults andyoung people on an individual
basis in West London.
And.
He has a book and an app thatexplores the relationship
between running and therapy.
You also offers running therapy.
So we talked about silenceswithin that context.
William Pullen (21:42):
Silence.
Silence is the great terror,isn't it?
I mean, you're asking me what I,what I think of it as, as the
therapist rather than for theclient, I assume.
For myself, you know, the riskof, of, of, um, of saving my
clients, I suppose is a termwe'd use.
(22:03):
I try to minimize it.
And certainly until I'mabsolutely sure that we're
comfortable.
Um, I'm certainly not overdoingit trying to overdo it either,
but I certainly I'm notemploying it.
Um, and.
If it gets to a point where Ican tell it's uncomfortable for
the client, um, and we're notmaking any progress with that
(22:26):
comfort discomfort, thediscomfort isn't informative.
It doesn't tell me something,which I can then use usefully if
it's just there, then I'm goingto address it.
Um, so there's your answer.
Dr Peter Blundell (22:38):
I think that's really interesting.
And I like that idea of kind ofminimizing it to start with and
then kind of gradually kind ofseeing, seeing how it, how it
fits.
I mean, I know some therapistswho would use it like
consistently to start off withand use that as a therapeutic
tool.
So, but I think I'd lean moretowards your approach, I think.
I wonder if it made anydifference, being outside with
(23:01):
clients, and also the fact thatyou know there's.
potentially people around andstuff like that.
So there might be moments ofsilence, uh, in, in the running
therapy, potentially that mightbe different from in a, in a
therapeutic space or in a room.
William Pullen (23:14):
Yeah, definitely.
Whenever we're passing, uh, somepeople, uh, whether running or
walking, I'm very conscious ofwhatever those people might
hear.
So I'll just stop talking, butit's very brief.
My client understands from thefirst time it happens that I
pick up very quickly, right offto what's.
So, uh, so that's another thing,but I think what you're talking
(23:37):
about there is how silencedifferent when moving on the
outside.
It's a lot easier as the answerbecause this is a beautiful
thing about nature and I saynature because I work in the
parks, but it holds you.
Doesn't it?
There's so much to see and smelland feel.
Um, and, and, and you'reinvolved in something.
You're the therapeutic moment ismuch less terrifying because.
(24:01):
As you amble your way throughthis park or you lie down,
somehow you're active in yourtherapy in a way that just
sitting there in somebody else'stherapy room feels a lot less
active.
Dr Peter Blundell (24:14):
I mean, that really struck me as you were
talking, I was thinking aboutthat actually sat across from
somebody having a silence canfeel very, very different.
I imagine then, as you say,being active and running or
walking or whatever, there'slots of things going on.
So although you might be silent,um, there is, there is still
lots of things going on, um,either in the environment or
between you as, as client andtherapist.
(24:36):
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
So we're coming into our finalcouple of clips now.
Um, and this next one is, um,from Maria.
Maria Sokopud Maria, is anexperienced GP who specializes
in gastroenterology and is atransactional analysis, like a
therapist.
Maria is a therapist working inUkraine.
And so our conversations wereframed obviously by the ongoing
(24:58):
conflict where she lives andworks.
If you missed Maria's episode, Ido encourage you to go back and
listen to that, which wasreleased in March, 2023.
Maria Sorokopud (25:08):
Mm hmm.
Uh, I guess a couple of yearsago I would have said, what?
Silence?
Hmm?
Uh, but right now I think Ireally appreciate it in work.
Um, I would formulate it thisway.
We are bombarded by noises, bynews, by information, by media,
(25:32):
by our phones beeping, whatever.
When you have the space with theclients and you can actually
shut up.
And give them the room, thearena, or can, where they can
finally step outside, not bejudges, be themselves in their
(25:53):
purest form.
It's amazing what it does.
It gives that room to go thatsome clients never had that
growing up in big families andbig communities.
I mean, here we have, um, quitetraditional, uh, families, a lot
of kids, things like this.
(26:14):
People didn't have that space.
And when they finally get it, itmight be, I mean, some of them
are shocked, some of them areafraid of silence, they're not
used to it.
But when you experience it in asafe way, that silence doesn't
mean something horrible is goingto happen.
That's the beauty of it.
(26:35):
I guess that's why I kind ofappreciate it and work when it
starts happening more and moreand more.
Sometimes you reach the pointwhere you can keep quiet most of
the session that happens too,especially right now.
I mean, we have way too muchintrusive stimuli starting with
bombs a lot.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:00):
It was interesting when I, um, I sent
you that question.
I was thinking, I sort ofthought about obviously
therapeutic use of silence, butthen it made me think about,
because I knew some of thethings we were going to talk
about, made me think aboutsilence in a more general terms
as well, in terms of howimportant it can be, but then
also potentially how damaged itcan be when people are silent
(27:21):
about, you know, Particulartopics and, and, and, you know,
not talking about thedifficulties or things that are
happening in Ukraine at themoment.
Um, not necessarily in therapynecessarily, but I was just
thinking in the broader kind of,um, broader sense of silence.
Yeah.
Maria Sorokopud (27:36):
I guess there's a lot of, um, pressure right
now, what to talk about, whatnot to talk about.
And sometimes you have toprocess it for quite a while.
to define what you actually wantto say.
Because, I mean, obviously I cango into a temper tantrum and be
(27:59):
raging and be angry, etc, etc.
Will it help?
I don't think so.
So, yeah, I, I did take a breakfor a while, uh, for quite a
while.
A few days when I was processingthe beginning of the war, I just
kept shut.
I had to figure it out formyself.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:22):
And that's important in silence as well, I
suppose, isn't it?
Having that contemplation andreflection.
Not necessarily reacting, buthaving time to kind of think
about what, what does this meanto me and how am I going to make
sense of this?
Maria Sorokopud (28:35):
Uh, I remember the morning on the 24th of
February.
Um, as I mentioned, I grew up inIstanbul and we did have bombing
in there, the terrorist attacks.
So I knew what that sounds like.
Uh, that moment talking aboutsilence, I was standing in front
(28:55):
of my window, looking at it.
Missiles exploding and the redhue and flames, et cetera.
And I was standing there kind oflike, Oh, for almost like 20, 30
minutes, I was shut down.
Then I started calling people,et cetera, et cetera.
But that moment, you know, whenyou're standing and looking,
(29:17):
observing your reality, crashingdown silence.
Yeah, that was silence.
Dr Peter Blundell (29:31):
For this last clip, is Rachel Cook, Who we
featured in last month's episodewhen we discussed the book
therapists, challenging racismand oppression, the.
Unheard voices for which he hasan editor.
And also one of the book chapterauthors.
Whilst Rachel, wasn't askedabout the use of therapeutic
silence in our discussion of thebook.
The topic of silence within theprofession came up and I thought
(29:54):
this was the poignant clip toend on.
So I asked Rachel for herpermission to include this in,
at the end of the episode.
Rachel Cooke (30:01):
Yes, the final just note that I wanted to share
was about, it goes back to thepolitical aspect of this,
something that I've reallynoticed is the the reticence of
a lot of practitioners, andunderstandably, for many
different reasons.
For some people, it'sfrightening in private practice.
For some people, it'sfrightening working for people,
it's frightening.
the NHS or differentorganizations, but around
(30:23):
speaking out against injustice.
And I've seen that particularlywith what the kind of therapist
silence around Palestine overthe last few months, that it
feels as though it's nowbecoming more accepted to call
what's happening a genocide.
And also it's been, really quitestriking how little I've seen
practitioners, now, maybethere's a lots of private
(30:45):
discussions going on, butpublicly there's been very
little so far, and I'm guessingthat a lot of that is out of
fear but I think we're onlybeginning to find the language
after three months of what'sbeen happening there to be able
to say that, critiquing agovernment's choices is not the
same as casting discriminationon a whole people or the people
who, who live in that place.
(31:06):
And, that this is something thatI really hope that we are going
to be talking more about becausethe silence has been pretty
deafening.
Dr Peter Blundell (31:19):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the
therapist connect podcast.
I hope you've enjoyed listeningto it as much as I have
recording and editing it, If youhave enjoyed this episode,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform and
I'll be back next month,interviewing another therapist
about their life and work in thetherapy community.
Hello, and welcome to another episode of
the therapist connect podcast.
My name is Dr.
Peter Blundell, and today we'vecreated an episode with a little
bit of a difference.
So over the last 12 months, I'vebeen asking our podcast guests
what they think about the use ofsilence in therapy.
So, this is a topic that oftencomes up with students when
they're at the early stages oftheir training.
(00:22):
And sometimes I find studentsfind it difficult to sit with
silence.
They have questions about theappropriateness or length of
silences in their therapeuticwork.
So I thought it might beinteresting to explore this with
our podcast guests.
And we've got a selection ofthose.
Questions and answers in thisepisode today.
So it's been an interestingepisode to work on as I've come
(00:43):
back to think about an editthese clips together.
It's made me reflect on some ofmy own therapeutic work with
clients, my own comfortablenessand challenges with silences.
If you'd like to join thisconversation, and you can tag us
on social media or use ourhashtag.
And as always, we'd reallyappreciate it.
If you could leave us a reviewon your favorite podcast
platform.
(01:03):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
So for this first clip, it's athrowback to an interview.
I completed with Sam Hope.
Sam is an experienced trainerwho has been working with EDI
anti-oppressive practice forover a decade.
They may be working the thirdsector.
In education and offering CPD asa therapist, as well as being a
(01:25):
visiting lecture on severaltherapists, training programs in
the UK.
Sam's background is anaccredited person centered
therapist with specialisms intrauma anti-oppressive practice
and working with diversity.
Sam's book person centeredcounseling for trans and gender
diverse people is available fromJessica Kingsley publishers.
You can hear a full interviewwith Sam, where they talk about
(01:46):
their life and work in ourpodcast episode from January.
But here's Sam reflecting ontheir experiences of silence in
therapy.
Sam Hope (01:55):
I feel like I talk about this a lot with my
supervisees.
Um, and I was interested.
Um, and I can't remember who itwas.
Somebody or other has done someresearch about how clients
really don't like silence asmuch as therapists think they
do.
Um, which I think is veryinteresting research, but I feel
(02:17):
like it misses something.
And I feel like this wholeconversation about silence
misses something because.
And I don't know whether this isyour experience, um, but it's
certainly mine, that there aredifferent qualities of silence
with different clients.
And for me, there's a, you know,yes, I have to learn to be
(02:41):
comfortable with silence, but Ialso have to learn to read my
discomfort.
Um, is my, am I still inconnection with my client in
this silence?
Because if I'm not in connectionwith my, with my client in this
silence, then the silence isstill there.
Totally useless and possiblydamaging.
(03:02):
Am I holding my client still?
Is my client floundering in thesilence?
Do they need something from me?
Um, you know, am I leaving thesilence for them?
Or am I leaving the silence?
Because somebody during mycounseling training said I have
to learn to be comfortable withsilence and I interjected that
so hard that I just leave asilence, no matter what and I
(03:27):
don't read the room.
So for me.
There is something reallyimportant about presence and
connection and knowing if I'mwith my client in that silence
and knowing, having a sense ofwhat's going on for that client.
It's a bit like, you know, whenthey, they say to you when
you're training.
(03:47):
If you're asking a client, how,how do they feel, then your,
your empathy is failing.
Yeah, like, it's not enough to,um, just have some kind of off
the shelf idea of silence.
Good.
You have to know what thissilence means and what is going
on for that client in that, inthat silence.
Um, So, yeah, for me, it's an itdepends question, really.
Dr Peter Blundell (04:15):
Um, I love that when you were talking, I
was thinking about the idea of,like, the texture of a silence.
Because if you say silence, itcan, it can create this image,
you know, this blank space.
But actually, there is somethinggoing on within that, both
within me as the therapist andthe client, um, and trying to,
and between us as well, Isuppose actually trying to get
(04:37):
to a point where you understandwhat is going on, um, so you
know how to use or not usesilences, um, or how to be or
not be in silences is, um, Ithink kind of what you were
trying to, trying to say there.
Sam Hope (04:49):
Absolutely, absolutely, and you know I have
some clients who, you know,there is a lot of silence.
Um, and then I have otherclients, and particularly I work
with a lot of people with ADHDand, and, and often silence
means that mind has, and youknow, this happens to me as a
client too.
Um, and the mind's just sort ofgone off somewhere and, and it,
(05:12):
and if I leave them, then willflounder.
And, and knowing the differenceis really important.
Dr Peter Blundell (05:16):
Oh, it was Sam describing their thoughts on
silence and therapy.
It's interesting.
As I've been editing thispodcast, I use some kind of
software that also helps me withthe process.
It's new to the series of thetherapist connect podcast
episodes.
And one of the features on it isthat every time I go to edit
something like it asks me, do Iwant to remove the long silences
(05:39):
automatically from the recorded,interviews?
So it automatically takes themout of, people's speech.
And I usually just click.
Yes.
And, except, those silences betaken out, to help with the flow
of the podcast.
And sometimes we're trying tomake it short and.
Punchy so that people can listento it quickly, wherever they
are.
But as I've been editing thisepisode, I've just, questioned a
(06:02):
little bit of why that I feelthe need to do that.
And so I've left some of those,longer silences in, I'm
particularly.
In this next clip, where Sarahtalks about her relationship
with silence.
From your, experience as a, as agrief counsellor, could you tell
us your experience and yourunderstanding of, the
therapeutic use of silence intherapy sessions?
Sara Mathews (06:24):
What I think is at the heart of grief counselling,
and I'm sure lots of other kindsof counselling as well, is
around people having to struggleto find their own meaning, and
make sense of what is thepurpose and point of me, and
where am I in this new landscapethat I find myself living in,
and I think that, is probablycore to what might be going on
(06:48):
for lots of people, for example.
And if you then think about how,how might you therapeutically
start to create the space forthat, you're not going to fill
it with words.
And I'm quite chatty.
I would say it's probably on mylist of things to constantly
keep an eye on because I startchatting away and making jokes
and all that kind of stuff.
(07:09):
So really trying to bring myselfdown all the time.
To hold a silence, um, so thatmeaning can emerge because it's
not my meaning for sure.
It's the other person's meaningthat needs to emerge.
And the moment you say anything,I have learned that even if even
an in judicious at the wrongtime can shape and take a client
(07:30):
somewhere.
You know, that isn't perhapswhere they need to go.
So really working hard on justholding the space.
I'm not uncomfortable withsilence.
I just have a naturally chattynature, I think, which I just
need to be aware of.
And I guess all therapists needto know who they are in the room
(07:51):
and how they are.
So I think silence is, um, Oh mygod, it is rich with
possibilities, uh, and it'sthrough the silence, and, and
silence allows you to feelthings in a way that is, you
know, different.
And I think interestinglyenough, being silent with
someone else whilst they feelit, and possibly you feel some
(08:14):
of it as well, is anextraordinary transformative
potential in that.
So I really believe in thetransformative possibilities of
silence.
Um, and I mentioned earlier thatI like a bit of poetry and I
wanted to, um, share a reallyshort poem and just, But just
offer it now, if I might, andthen just hold a second or two
(08:36):
of silence at the end so that wecan just see what that feels
like.
Is that right?
Dr Peter Blundell (08:40):
That would be lovely.
Okay,
Sara Mathews (08:42):
cool.
So poem.
Poem is by someone called KateFox, and it's really very short,
and I will say one sentenceabout what I think it is rather
than too much, because I thinkit's about the silence
afterwards.
But I think this is about thecourage of the bereaved.
That's all I'm going to say.
So the poem is called Portrait.
(09:04):
Something brave in reading aperson's light To make a still
of their image Which catchesthem in flight Something brave
(09:26):
in reading a person's light Tomake a still of their image
Which catches them in flight Andthat courage to actually look at
what you're feeling And look atwho's died And look at what was
really going on There certainlyis something brave in that And I
think that emerges.
You can hear my voice.
I find it very moving throughthe silence that you can hold
(09:49):
inside yourself just to feelthose words.
So that I thought I wanted toshow you, demonstrate to you
what silence means rather thantalk too much about it.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:01):
Thank you, Sarah.
I felt really moved hearing,hearing that and then in the
silence as well.
Sara Mathews (10:07):
What is that courage?
God, it's extraordinary, isn'tit?
Absolutely extraordinary.
And,
Dr Peter Blundell (10:11):
and going back to what you were saying
earlier about the, almost likethe creative possibilities of
the silent because so much canpotentially happen in that
moment.
And although it might beunspoken, it's still, it's still
felt or thought.
Sara Mathews (10:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Peter.
That felt really connectingbetween us as well.
I hope that communicates toother people.
Dr Peter Blundell (10:33):
If you want to hear more from Sarah, you'd
need to go back to the episodewe recorded, which was released
in April, 2023.
Sarah is.
Uh, senior accredited counselorregistered with the BAC P she is
a qualified counselingsupervisor and trainer.
She's also headed up bereavementservices in the voluntary sector
for many years before setting upher bereavement counseling
(10:53):
practice.
Then our next clip, um, is takenfrom my interview with Dianne
Sotomey Which was released inSeptember, 2023.
They announced the best-sellingauthor of check your thoughts,
your life depends on it.
How your thoughts shape youreveryday life and who you
become.
She is also a UK CP, registeredpsychotherapist, clinical
supervisor and trainer.
(11:15):
Diane is a visiting tutor at theTA east Institute for psych
therapy and counseling, andcurrently resides in the
tranquil countryside of Suffolk.
In this clip, Dianne reflects onwhat the potential benefits of
silences are for clients.
Dianne Sotomey (11:30):
I do feel like silence is necessary because it
can be a way of drilling thework with your client a little
bit deeper in the sense of if,if you were to ask a question
and sometimes Um, just leavethat question, a powerful
(11:56):
question with a client, it canallow them to take a back step
to stop and reflect and actuallycome up with something that
might have been bubbling thatthey hadn't quite thought about.
But because of that silence, itcreates the space for that to
(12:17):
emerge.
So, and I think it can also workjust as well for the therapist
because it enables.
One to stop and think, okay,where am I?
What's going on?
What is needed right now?
So I think silence is reallyuseful for both the client and
(12:39):
the therapist, but I think itcan deepen the work for both.
Dr Peter Blundell (12:43):
Absolutely.
It's almost like a pause in theinteraction, but space to think
uh, for both people, the clientand the therapist.
Yes.
Um, and, and possibly newinsights come from that or
that's it, or just new feelingsor reflections as you think
about the question or the Yes orthe, or what's happening in that
silence.
Yeah.
Yes.
Dianne Sotomey (13:03):
And new shifts.
Dr Peter Blundell (13:04):
Yeah.
New shift and changes.
Yeah.
Whilst it's important to talkabout the benefits of silences
within our therapeutic work.
I think it's also important thatwe're honest about the
difficulties and the challengesthat can come up.
And this next clip, Maxine talksabout the challenges that she
faced when thinking about andusing therapeutic silence.
Maxine Walsh (13:23):
I was saying that I wasn't going to think about
this question too much because Iknow that I could have.
So, I mean, it was, I remember,I remember in training.
You know, we, we did do a lot ofwork around silence, you know,
the use of silence in thetherapeutic space.
And I'm going to put my hands upand be really honest and say
(13:45):
that as a new accreditedpsychotherapist, I found it
really difficult.
Um, I think, you know, as wellas that because it was during
the pandemic and I think onlineit's even more uncomfortable
(14:06):
than it is face to face.
I think the thing about the useof silence is that not only does
it give the, the, the client achance to think it also gives
the counselor a chance to think.
And that's, that's not always agood thing.
(14:30):
Because what as a, as a newcounselor for me, rightly or
wrongly, that space was filledwith, Oh, Oh, Oh, what?
What do I need to do?
What can I do?
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
And a little bit of panic.
And it took a while and a bit ofsupervision and a bit of
introspection to, to settlemyself with that and to be okay
(14:53):
with that.
And I think that's probably aprocess that a lot of people go
through.
Dr Peter Blundell (14:57):
Maxine, I'm so happy that you said that
because teaching students allthe time and seeing the
difficulty with silence, it'skind of one of the reasons why I
was interested in askingdifferent therapists opinions on
this was because how difficultsilence is, I know, can be for
some people.
people.
And so I think people listeningto this who are, who are just
(15:17):
coming, you know, in training orjust kind of becoming qualified
and thinking, Oh my goodness,like, you know, having
difficulties with it to hearthat other therapists have gone
through that, that process, Ithink is really, it's really
important.
Maxine Walsh (15:30):
And it's a pro it is a process.
It is a process.
Yeah, absolutely.
Dr Peter Blundell (15:36):
And if you want to hear more from Maxine,
you can check out our episodefrom October, 2023, where I
interviewed her about a life andwork.
Maxine has been a counselor andpsychotherapist for over 11
years with a over four yearsexperience in private practice.
She has been accredited with theIrish association of counselors
and psychotherapists since 2019.
(15:56):
And up until the end of 2023,Maxine was also one of the
therapist's connect volunteerswho was running our Twitter
accounts on a Mondays andMaxine.
We still miss you on theaccounts.
So.
We wish you, well, whereveryou're doing now.
And our next clip we hear fromDr.
Fraser Smith, who is acounseling psychologist and
clinical director for psychologyScotland.
There was a therapist connectpodcast episode released
(16:19):
interviewing him in May, 2023.
You can go back and check thatout.
If you want to hear more fromhim.
Fraser is a charteredpsychologist, registered the
HCPC and BPS with years ofexperience and training, working
within therapy.
He specializes in working withmen's mental health and has
worked in therapy with men.
researched the field and becomea recognized speaker within this
area for a number of years.
(16:40):
Can you tell us your experienceand your understanding of, um,
the therapeutic use of silence,uh, in your therapeutic
sessions?
Fraser Smith (16:49):
Yeah, when, when that question comes up, the
first feeling I have is dread.
I think that, you know, for me,and I'll explain what that is,
it's because when I wastraining, and I think again,
when, when studying that, theidea of silence in a therapeutic
relationship meant you weredoing something wrong.
And, you know, when a clientsits and stares at you, waiting
(17:10):
for you to say the next thing,or when you don't know what to
say, that often kind of, itsparks that kind of, um, That
initial stages of training dreadfor me, but as my experience is
built, you know, I've understoodthe value in silence a lot more
for me.
The importance of it really kindof stems from not how to best
word.
That's not saving my clients assuch are allowing clients to
(17:36):
feel that they need to be saved.
And I think.
That is something I've wrestledwith a lot and still get wrong
and still and still grapple withthis idea that it's not okay to
be silent in that therapeuticspace because I need to be
saving and I need to be doingthe work and I need to be
(17:56):
pulling my clients through tochange and actually the silence
can really reveal I think what'smost important to that client
and and also the fact that Ibelieve in I'm a huge believer
in the individual in the in thepower of autonomy and that that
individual can can overcometheir difficulties and I think
that's explored in silence oftenand I think there's also
(18:18):
something like I do a lot of andthis is just some for me I do a
lot of work in men's mentalhealth.
And what I've come to know,excuse me, what I've come to
know with the men I see intherapy is that, um, silence is
something that they find veryuncomfortable.
Maybe that's the demographic,maybe that's the geography of
the West of Scotland here.
Um, but there's something aboutdiscomfort in that silence and,
and not having something to sayand not saying something and
(18:42):
being in connection inrelationship with somebody that
can feel uncomfortable for, forsome people in general, but I
also experienced it particularlywith men at times.
I, I've, I've tried to utilizesilence much more rather than
trying to save these people andagain, pull'em through to
change.
How can I sit with that silenceand explore, explore the
discomfort of it as well, bothin me and in my client.
(19:04):
And, um, I've, I've understoodthe value.
It is come from a place of realdread at first and fear that I
would have nothing to say thatmy clients would've, nothing to
say to, to one of recognizingreal value and therapeutic
growth in it.
So, um, yeah, it's, it is kindof, um.
It's grown in its importance forme over my career, so to speak.
Dr Peter Blundell (19:22):
I think that's really interesting and
it, um, reminds me now of kindof being a, uh, a lecturer
sitting in personal developmentgroups and kind of the silence
comes along and students kind ofsat there going, Oh God, like,
what is this?
Like we're not doing anything.
I think it's so, it's sohorrendously awful.
And so, so for me, there's likethat, that, that dual thing of
like, yes, being able to say,comfortably in silence, but then
(19:45):
also, like, silences can, can,people can suffer like in
silence as well, you know, andthey can be quite cruel.
So it's, it's a real difficultbalance, I think.
Fraser Smith (19:55):
It really is.
It's a, it's a great point.
You know, the idea of sittingand staring at someone, I think
that's a wonderful point,actually, it's a very fine
balance because the idea ofsitting and staring at someone
for therapy hour, or, or, youknow, When somebody has been,
you know, viscerally tortured inthat silence, you know, that's,
I think, something very much toavoid, but I also think it's
(20:16):
within context, you know, whenwe're exploring, for example,
maybe, maybe if we're utilizinga trauma model, and we're
exploring stability, or we'reexploring, exploring an element
of processing of certaintraumas, and certain things are
said, or certain things areunpacked and explored, I think
silence is more important thanever to allow a space for
healing, particularly withintrauma work, where it's not
(20:38):
about just seeing the next thingand getting through the next
stage of processing or gettingthrough to that reintegration
stage or establishing morestability.
Actually, the silence is ahealing place for when certain
things of processing are doneand spoken about.
So, yeah, I think you make avery good point.
It's not a case of just sittingand torturing people, but it's
(20:59):
using silence in the right wayat the right time in my eyes.
Dr Peter Blundell (21:03):
I had a similar conversation with
William Pullan where wediscussed actually his silences
always beneficial for theclient, or could there be times
when actually we really need tothink about the use of silences.
I interviewed William in July,2023.
So you can go back and listen tothat episode.
If you're interested, William isa qualified psychotherapist
registered with BAC P you offershort and long-term
(21:26):
psychotherapy to adults andyoung people on an individual
basis in West London.
And.
He has a book and an app thatexplores the relationship
between running and therapy.
You also offers running therapy.
So we talked about silenceswithin that context.
William Pullen (21:42):
Silence.
Silence is the great terror,isn't it?
I mean, you're asking me what I,what I think of it as, as the
therapist rather than for theclient, I assume.
For myself, you know, the riskof, of, of, um, of saving my
clients, I suppose is a termwe'd use.
(22:03):
I try to minimize it.
And certainly until I'mabsolutely sure that we're
comfortable.
Um, I'm certainly not overdoingit trying to overdo it either,
but I certainly I'm notemploying it.
Um, and.
If it gets to a point where Ican tell it's uncomfortable for
the client, um, and we're notmaking any progress with that
(22:26):
comfort discomfort, thediscomfort isn't informative.
It doesn't tell me something,which I can then use usefully if
it's just there, then I'm goingto address it.
Um, so there's your answer.
Dr Peter Blundell (22:38):
I think that's really interesting.
And I like that idea of kind ofminimizing it to start with and
then kind of gradually kind ofseeing, seeing how it, how it
fits.
I mean, I know some therapistswho would use it like
consistently to start off withand use that as a therapeutic
tool.
So, but I think I'd lean moretowards your approach, I think.
I wonder if it made anydifference, being outside with
(23:01):
clients, and also the fact thatyou know there's.
potentially people around andstuff like that.
So there might be moments ofsilence, uh, in, in the running
therapy, potentially that mightbe different from in a, in a
therapeutic space or in a room.
William Pullen (23:14):
Yeah, definitely.
Whenever we're passing, uh, somepeople, uh, whether running or
walking, I'm very conscious ofwhatever those people might
hear.
So I'll just stop talking, butit's very brief.
My client understands from thefirst time it happens that I
pick up very quickly, right offto what's.
So, uh, so that's another thing,but I think what you're talking
(23:37):
about there is how silencedifferent when moving on the
outside.
It's a lot easier as the answerbecause this is a beautiful
thing about nature and I saynature because I work in the
parks, but it holds you.
Doesn't it?
There's so much to see and smelland feel.
Um, and, and, and you'reinvolved in something.
You're the therapeutic moment ismuch less terrifying because.
(24:01):
As you amble your way throughthis park or you lie down,
somehow you're active in yourtherapy in a way that just
sitting there in somebody else'stherapy room feels a lot less
active.
Dr Peter Blundell (24:14):
I mean, that really struck me as you were
talking, I was thinking aboutthat actually sat across from
somebody having a silence canfeel very, very different.
I imagine then, as you say,being active and running or
walking or whatever, there'slots of things going on.
So although you might be silent,um, there is, there is still
lots of things going on, um,either in the environment or
between you as, as client andtherapist.
(24:36):
So, yeah, that's reallyinteresting.
So we're coming into our finalcouple of clips now.
Um, and this next one is, um,from Maria.
Maria Sokopud Maria, is anexperienced GP who specializes
in gastroenterology and is atransactional analysis, like a
therapist.
Maria is a therapist working inUkraine.
And so our conversations wereframed obviously by the ongoing
(24:58):
conflict where she lives andworks.
If you missed Maria's episode, Ido encourage you to go back and
listen to that, which wasreleased in March, 2023.
Maria Sorokopud (25:08):
Mm hmm.
Uh, I guess a couple of yearsago I would have said, what?
Silence?
Hmm?
Uh, but right now I think Ireally appreciate it in work.
Um, I would formulate it thisway.
We are bombarded by noises, bynews, by information, by media,
(25:32):
by our phones beeping, whatever.
When you have the space with theclients and you can actually
shut up.
And give them the room, thearena, or can, where they can
finally step outside, not bejudges, be themselves in their
(25:53):
purest form.
It's amazing what it does.
It gives that room to go thatsome clients never had that
growing up in big families andbig communities.
I mean, here we have, um, quitetraditional, uh, families, a lot
of kids, things like this.
(26:14):
People didn't have that space.
And when they finally get it, itmight be, I mean, some of them
are shocked, some of them areafraid of silence, they're not
used to it.
But when you experience it in asafe way, that silence doesn't
mean something horrible is goingto happen.
That's the beauty of it.
(26:35):
I guess that's why I kind ofappreciate it and work when it
starts happening more and moreand more.
Sometimes you reach the pointwhere you can keep quiet most of
the session that happens too,especially right now.
I mean, we have way too muchintrusive stimuli starting with
bombs a lot.
Dr Peter Blundell (27:00):
It was interesting when I, um, I sent
you that question.
I was thinking, I sort ofthought about obviously
therapeutic use of silence, butthen it made me think about,
because I knew some of thethings we were going to talk
about, made me think aboutsilence in a more general terms
as well, in terms of howimportant it can be, but then
also potentially how damaged itcan be when people are silent
(27:21):
about, you know, Particulartopics and, and, and, you know,
not talking about thedifficulties or things that are
happening in Ukraine at themoment.
Um, not necessarily in therapynecessarily, but I was just
thinking in the broader kind of,um, broader sense of silence.
Yeah.
Maria Sorokopud (27:36):
I guess there's a lot of, um, pressure right
now, what to talk about, whatnot to talk about.
And sometimes you have toprocess it for quite a while.
to define what you actually wantto say.
Because, I mean, obviously I cango into a temper tantrum and be
(27:59):
raging and be angry, etc, etc.
Will it help?
I don't think so.
So, yeah, I, I did take a breakfor a while, uh, for quite a
while.
A few days when I was processingthe beginning of the war, I just
kept shut.
I had to figure it out formyself.
Dr Peter Blundell (28:22):
And that's important in silence as well, I
suppose, isn't it?
Having that contemplation andreflection.
Not necessarily reacting, buthaving time to kind of think
about what, what does this meanto me and how am I going to make
sense of this?
Maria Sorokopud (28:35):
Uh, I remember the morning on the 24th of
February.
Um, as I mentioned, I grew up inIstanbul and we did have bombing
in there, the terrorist attacks.
So I knew what that sounds like.
Uh, that moment talking aboutsilence, I was standing in front
(28:55):
of my window, looking at it.
Missiles exploding and the redhue and flames, et cetera.
And I was standing there kind oflike, Oh, for almost like 20, 30
minutes, I was shut down.
Then I started calling people,et cetera, et cetera.
But that moment, you know, whenyou're standing and looking,
(29:17):
observing your reality, crashingdown silence.
Yeah, that was silence.
Dr Peter Blundell (29:31):
For this last clip, is Rachel Cook, Who we
featured in last month's episodewhen we discussed the book
therapists, challenging racismand oppression, the.
Unheard voices for which he hasan editor.
And also one of the book chapterauthors.
Whilst Rachel, wasn't askedabout the use of therapeutic
silence in our discussion of thebook.
The topic of silence within theprofession came up and I thought
(29:54):
this was the poignant clip toend on.
So I asked Rachel for herpermission to include this in,
at the end of the episode.
Rachel Cooke (30:01):
Yes, the final just note that I wanted to share
was about, it goes back to thepolitical aspect of this,
something that I've reallynoticed is the the reticence of
a lot of practitioners, andunderstandably, for many
different reasons.
For some people, it'sfrightening in private practice.
For some people, it'sfrightening working for people,
it's frightening.
the NHS or differentorganizations, but around
(30:23):
speaking out against injustice.
And I've seen that particularlywith what the kind of therapist
silence around Palestine overthe last few months, that it
feels as though it's nowbecoming more accepted to call
what's happening a genocide.
And also it's been, really quitestriking how little I've seen
practitioners, now, maybethere's a lots of private
(30:45):
discussions going on, butpublicly there's been very
little so far, and I'm guessingthat a lot of that is out of
fear but I think we're onlybeginning to find the language
after three months of what'sbeen happening there to be able
to say that, critiquing agovernment's choices is not the
same as casting discriminationon a whole people or the people
who, who live in that place.
(31:06):
And, that this is something thatI really hope that we are going
to be talking more about becausethe silence has been pretty
deafening.
Dr Peter Blundell (31:19):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the
therapist connect podcast.
I hope you've enjoyed listeningto it as much as I have
recording and editing it, If youhave enjoyed this episode,
please leave us a review on yourfavorite podcast platform and
I'll be back next month,interviewing another therapist
about their life and work in thetherapy community.
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