January 28, 2025 • 51 mins
In this illuminating conversation, Kacey Baker, host of The Cult Vault podcast, shares her journey from lockdown podcaster to advocate and expert in coercive control. What began as a way to stay mentally stimulated during COVID isolation while caring for her newborn has evolved into nearly 400 episodes featuring survivor stories and in-depth discussions about cults and coercive control. Baker recently completed her master's degree in the psychology of coercive control, bringing academic rigor to her growing expertise in the field.
Throughout the episode, Baker discusses how her understanding of cult dynamics and coercive control has transformed through years of interviewing survivors. She candidly acknowledges her own past misconceptions about people who join cults or remain in abusive relationships, explaining how direct conversations with survivors helped reshape her perspective. A key insight from her work is recognizing how coercive control manifests across various contexts - from cults to domestic relationships, military training, workplace abuse, and human trafficking.
Baker provides valuable information about current legislation around coercive control, particularly focusing on the UK's Section 76 of the Serious Crime Act (2015). While this law criminalizes coercive control in domestic settings, she explains its limitations in addressing group contexts like cults. She discusses ongoing efforts through organizations like The Family Survival Trust and the National Working Group of Spiritual and Ritual Abuse to expand this legislation's scope.
The conversation delves into Baker's thoughtful approach to interviewing survivors, emphasizing ethical storytelling and the importance of avoiding re-traumatization. She explains how most guests reach out to her independently, and she offers various options to protect their identities, including the use of pseudonyms and careful omission of identifying details.
Baker also shares insights from her recent participation in a conference about spiritual and ritual abuse, describing the powerful experience of being among professionals who deeply understand coercive control's cross-contextual nature. She discusses her role at CrimeCon events, where she often invites survivors to speak alongside her, ensuring their voices remain central to discussions about cult experiences.
The episode concludes with Baker's reflections on how personal interest can evolve into meaningful advocacy work. Her journey demonstrates how taking time to understand complex issues with compassion and curiosity can lead to significant positive change, both personally and societally.
This episode contains discussions of psychological abuse, coercive control, and related topics that some listeners may find disturbing. Listener discretion is advised.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to Witch Hunt. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we're exploring the
dynamics of course of control with Casey Baker, host of the
Colt Vault Podcast. Casey has interviewed hundreds
of survivors, sharing the stories of life and Colts and
high control groups. What started as a lockdown
(00:20):
project has evolved into a vitalplatform for survivor voices and
advocacy. Through her work on the Colt
Vault and her recent master's degree in the psychology of
coercive control, Casey brings unique insights into how
coercive control manifests across different contexts, from
cults to domestic relationships and beyond.
(00:41):
She's joining us to discuss ethical approaches to sharing
survivor stories, current legislation around coercive
control, and how understanding these dynamics can help combat
abuse in all its forms. Our conversation with Casey
touches on serious topics including psychological abuse
and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
(01:02):
Here's our conversation with Casey Baker of The Cult Vault.
Welcome to Witch Hunt, Casey Baker of the Cult Vault Podcast.
We connected after hearing your presentation at a Sara National
Working Group meeting because ofhow our subject matter overlaps
with yours. Thank you both so much for
having me on your podcast today.It's great to sit down and catch
(01:25):
up with both of you, Sarah and Josh.
As host of the high performing podcast Colt Vault, you've
created a vital platform where survivors share their first hand
experiences of Colts and high control groups.
Tell us about your work amplifying these important
stories. Well, it's been a bit of a
(01:46):
roller coaster really. I have found myself in this work
by accident. I think that's often the case
when you kind of connect with individuals like you, like we
have, and you start to have conversations about how people
ended up doing such niche and specific work.
(02:09):
Yay, how much? What Justin?
Well, that's that was a little pleasant introduction.
Yeah, that. Was great.
She's learning how to open her stair gate so I think that's
what the Slayer was kind of creepy the slower.
(02:30):
My love kids. Yeah, so I found myself doing
this work by accident. I'm sure anybody that has heard
me talk about this will know exactly what I'm going to say
because it feels like scripted at this point.
I was on maternity leave with our first born who was four
(02:54):
months old at the time that the first lockdown for COVID started
over here in England. And I had a partner who was
working 12 hour night shifts andwe were really struggling to
find something to keep me sane in between, you know, sleep
(03:15):
deprivation and cluster breastfeeding and and just kind
of navigating parenthood as first time parents in the middle
of a nationwide and global at that point wide lockdown where
we were not able to have, you know, external support.
And I realized that I just needed something to keep myself
(03:37):
stimulated, and that turned out to be podcasting.
I tried a number of different things, found an old room mic
and decided that I was going to start a podcast.
And even if nobody listened, at least I will have spent some of
what free time I had either whenbaby was sleeping or when
partner was home doing somethingthat felt like you could see the
(04:01):
results at the end of it. So people were learning how to
do the splits and I was just like, wow, you can actually see
how much you've progressed with learning something new.
So I started a podcast about cults.
I didn't expect anybody to listen, but after the first few
episodes of covering things likeJonestown and the Branch
(04:21):
Davidians and asking the question on whether, you know,
like ISKCON and the Hari Krishnas, is that a cult?
I had a few people reach out to me and explained that they
themselves had been in cults andwere looking to share their
experiences. So I started interviewing
(04:43):
survivors. And from there, it really just
snowballed into to something unplanned, unprecedented,
educational. So five years on, I think we're
close to something like 400 episodes on the podcast.
And I realised that I had been learning so much along the way
(05:05):
that I wanted to try and quantify academically some of
the stuff that I had kind of self educated myself on.
And so tomorrow I graduate with a master's in the psychology of
coercive control. And that's why I'm recording
this evening with my Pearl is in.
(05:27):
It's a very Scouse thing, which is like Liverpool, England.
It's very common and typical fora woman to have her curled it
before a night out and I am up in Liverpool in England, so I
feel more comfortable with my curlers in in Liverpool than I
do with them out. That's awesome, congratulations.
(05:50):
Do we need to define cult? Where do the boundaries fall
around that? I think that's every person you
ask. How do you define the term cult?
Will define it slightly differently, even different
dictionaries that have differentdefinitions for the term cult.
(06:11):
If you ask people in mainstream Christianity, they are likely to
say that anything that doesn't conform to mainstream
Christianity is a cult. So things like 7th Day Adventism
is a cult or, you know, and thenall of the splinters that come
from that, because the brand of Davidians came from the 7th Day
(06:32):
Adventists, which came from mainstream Christianity.
And there's so many different religious sects and factions
that you can kind of look at that have had that same journey.
But Christian Scientists, they would be labeled a cult movement
by people in mainstream Christianity.
(06:52):
And, and if you were to speak tocult experts, a lot of cult
experts would say that there is a charismatic authoritarian
leader who demands, well, commands totalistic control of
(07:15):
individuals underneath them and demands that people obey a
certain belief system that is not reflected in mainstream
society typically would be seen as quite radical or extreme.
Especially if those same belief systems were identified in
(07:41):
mainstream religions outside of Christianity, like Islam, for
example. Which I think is a really
interesting thing to look at on its own, how the rhetoric and
the dogma and the theology is pretty much translatable between
the major religious texts. But the way that propaganda
(08:04):
works and the way that extremismworks, we are quick to identify
Islamic extremists, but we aren't able to look at the FLDS
or Christian nationalism or Dominion theology and say, oh,
actually, hang on, If you're talking about the one in true
religion and supreme human race,that all comes down to a
(08:28):
theological basis, then that's all very similar.
So in terms of defining the termcult, it's really tricky.
There's even a group of people that are often referred to as
cult apologists in the cult education and academic and
awareness space that are defenders of cults and will use
(08:52):
terminology like new religious movement.
And instead of labelling a groupas a cult, even if that group or
organizational movement fits theframework of identifiable
markers that make up what we recognise to be a cult, they are
often times paid by these groupsto speak on national,
(09:16):
international stages and defend the the movement, sometimes in
the court of law. These people are also employed
by cults to disagree with the cult expert that's been brought
in to testify why groups cult. And then the court apologists
will be brought up by the opposing side to say actually
(09:38):
this is not a cult for all of these reasons.
So then massive divides in the cult education awareness space
and how you would define a cult or how you would even summarize
the definition. My really long winded response
is exactly what I said at the start.
Everybody you ask will define a cult slightly differently, I
(09:59):
think. That's really great.
That is, so much of of it mirrors a lot of what we see
with witchcraft and which there's just all of this space
and room for those definitions. Yeah, yeah.
I think what's really tricky is that I think you have a much
(10:21):
harder battle with the term witch because people can
positively identify with that word and it can also be
pejorative. Whereas the word cult, I think
is unanimously universally pejorative, especially after the
70s and 80s. Before that, I think that word
(10:42):
was used in a pejorative sense, but now it is mostly related to
mass murders and suicides and that's how the word reached
mainstream pejorative kind of contextualisation, whereas which
some people will take pride in in in identifying with that
(11:04):
term. So I think you've got a harder
job in trying to work between the two.
It is hard to separate between different definitions of of
things. And like you said about cults,
it depends on who's defining it,how they're going to define the
word. It's relative to everybody's own
(11:27):
perspective, and I think witchcraft is similar.
Your perspective might be witchcraft is this positive
thing? Or your perspective might be
witchcraft is this fearful thing.
And how has your understanding of quote dynamics change since
you began the podcast? My gosh, it's been another whole
(11:49):
roller coaster like this. This specific part of the
journey has been probably the most illuminating for me in a
personal sense. I was very much somebody.
That was what I would call an unethical true crime content
consumer. I would listen to really
(12:13):
untactful, non compassionate true crime documentaries and
podcasts and I would be really detached from the information
that I was listening to. I would just stick something on
to go for a walk or drive to work.
And I didn't really ever consider the fact that these
(12:38):
stories were real people who hadfamilies and loved ones.
And I didn't ever really realisethat most of the episode content
was based around the perpetratoror the serial killer or the cult
leader. It was only after I started
(13:00):
speaking to cult survivors that my whole kind of perception
shifted on not just true crime content consuming and how to
really try to develop my own more ethical content in terms of
transparency and consent and personal psycho education.
(13:25):
So I would understand the experiences that the people I
was speaking with had been through, at least to some
extent. I haven't been in a cult, so
I'll never really fully understand.
And everybody's experience is different.
So even if I had been in a cult,my experience would still be
different to those who had been in different environments or
even the same environment. And all of these things I just
(13:46):
had never considered until I started the podcast itself and
speaking with survivors. And I used to definitely be one
of these people who would say, oh, if I was in an abusive
relationship, like why didn't they just leave?
Like I would just leave or who joins a cult.
I would never join a cult or only stupid people join cults.
(14:10):
And these really unhelpful misconceptions that the general
wider public have about cults and coercive control in terms of
abuse outside of cultic abuse ordomestic abuse.
Like wherever you find coercive control, if it's in the
workplace, if it's in the family, if it's in your yoga
(14:31):
group or your church or your knitting group, or even in just
some of the friendship groups that you have, the dog walking
group that you go to, wherever you find coercive control.
I, I really did have this skewedvictim blaming mentality.
And I'm not ashamed to talk about it because I think it
(14:52):
shows that anybody can go on this learning journey and
everybody can have this shift inperception and education and
understanding and compassion. But it does make me a bit
uncomfortable to relive those really ignorant moments that I
used to have. I have like 2 questions now I
(15:14):
got to decide which one wins. But let's talk about coercive
control. What do we need to know about it
or what really developed around it for you with your research I.
Was having so many conversationswith people about abuse and
(15:39):
usually it would come from me talking about the work that I do
on the podcast, speaking with cult survivors and then talking
to somebody that like a crime con, for example, a fellow
podcaster who is talking to victims of domestic violence or
domestic abuse. And we would have these
conversations where we'd be talking about the same thing.
(16:00):
I'd be saying, well, the cult leader does this.
And then my friend Lucy, who hasa podcast called You Don't Own
Me, she would be saying, oh, butthat's what the, that's what the
domestic abuser does. That's what the perpetrator
does. That's what the, you know,
violent spouse or the, the psychologically abusive spouse
does. And I was thinking, Oh my gosh,
there's no way that this is justhappening in all of these
(16:23):
different pockets. And it's not all connected
somehow. But my brain wasn't going that
far. I was speaking with people who
had been in the military and they were talking about their
basic training and how coercive it was.
And I was thinking, wow, that's just what cult leaders do.
You know, that's just the the way that cults are set up.
(16:43):
And I just wasn't realising thatall of these different contexts
or environments where coercive control was taking place were
all linked with this common thread.
And it was only after I heard the term coercive control and I
looked down at the definition, an act or a pattern of acts of
assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation with an aim to
(17:09):
calm, punish, frighten and control somebody.
And I was like, wow, that could be the definition of cults, but
it's also the definition of workplace abuse or sports abuse
or human trafficking and modern slavery, the type of control
that's exerted in that environment.
And it was only when I came across the term coercive control
(17:30):
that I was like, shit, that's the thread that that ties all of
these contexts and environments together.
And it was like a light bulb moment.
And I was so relieved. But then I thought, what do I do
with this now? I can start to invite survivors
of other forms of or other contexts of abuse and not other
forms because as we've just explained, it's all coercive and
(17:52):
controlling behaviour. But I could start to ask human
trafficking survivors or people that have experienced workplace
abuse or people that have experienced female genital
mutilation or breast flattening or any of these types of
coercive procedures and abuses onto the podcast to share their
(18:13):
experiences So we could continueto kind of like unify these
contexts somehow. And then I came across the
master's course at Salford University, The Psychology of
Coercive Control, and it was being pitched as the only course
of its kind, which worried me atfirst.
(18:33):
Some people were like wow, it's the only course of its kind.
And I was like, that's really dodgy to me though, because 1 of
Lifton's 8 criteria is mystical manipulation, where they would
say wow, join our group. We have the one true, we have
the one true word, you know, we want, we know the one true
answer to this question. We have this thing and it's
(18:54):
one-of-a-kind. So I was a bit dubious because
if anybody's presenting themselves in that way, I think
it's important to try and be as questioning and critical as
possible. But I was also coming across
moments of people saying, oh, you're a cult expert and I'd be
(19:16):
like, I'm a cult expert. I'm like, maybe I'm like 4
persons version of a cult expert.
I'm like, I'm just over here, like I, I can answer a few
questions. And the more it happened and the
more uncomfortable I felt, the more I thought maybe if I could
quantify academically everythingthat I'd learned over the last
(19:39):
five years, I might feel a bit more comfortable with people
saying she's a Co expert. Or can you come and be an expert
witness of this federal trial that we have coming up?
So I went through the Salford University course.
I was very thankful to get a place on the psychology course
because I have an arts undergraduate background, so I
(19:59):
didn't know if I'd be able to ifI'd be eligible for a psychology
master's. But yeah, one year on and we're
done. We're finished with it.
And I was so relieved that it's over.
It was a lot of hard work, but yes, I am now Casey Baker MSC.
Well done. And I want to add that one of
(20:20):
the things I love about podcasting is you get some
multicultural experiences and your story with your hair today
is one of those. I love that I it's like
unexpected. But when you talked about being
so comfortable in the community and I'm like, I just learned
about that culture there a little bit more so.
(20:41):
Anyway, yeah, if you ever come over to England and you visit
Liverpool, you'll see exactly what I mean.
It's. Yeah, there's a pyjama culture
over here as well. If you go out in your curlers
and your pyjamas, like people know you be getting married in
the morning, you know, that's serious.
Like I'm ready for a night out Aesthetic.
Yeah, it's great. It's not something that I would
(21:02):
have done when I lived down South, but now that I've lived
up here in the north in this particular area for a long time,
it's it's great. Yeah, I do.
I'm. I'm very lucky and fortunate to
have the opportunity to speak with people from all around the
world. I've spoken with people from the
(21:23):
Philippines, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.
I speak more with people over inAmerica than I do people from
here in England. But I'm so lucky with the
diversity of guests that are willing to come and share their
(21:43):
experiences on the podcast. It's an incredible education for
me. And I received so many emails
and comments on YouTube and reviews on, on, on Apple
Podcasts of just people thankingthe survivors for coming onto
the podcast to share their experiences and how validating
(22:05):
that is for other survivors who are tuning into the podcast.
So it's multifaceted in the impact that it has.
And you know, and the, and, and the testimonies that each brave
person comes forward to tell moments of their deepest
vulnerabilities and most difficult moments in their
lives. And it's hopefully a healing
(22:27):
experience more than a re traumatising experience because
that's something that I do try and avoid at all costs with each
guest that comes onto the show it.
Requires a special touch, doesn't it?
I I think so. I think the more that the more
that I can learn and the more compassionate I can be, the
(22:51):
hopefully the more supportive and reassuring the process of
being on the podcast is. But that's why, as you 2 are
both know, there is a pre interview process that I tried
to go through with each participant before we record.
It's not something that you would ever want to just sit down
and say let's chat without any type of preparation.
(23:14):
But there is always the risk that reharm will happen, that re
traumatisation will happen as asmuch as we try to avoid that.
Any time you sit down to talk about the experiences that
you've had in your life that have been the most difficult,
sometimes that will just stay with you.
I have that when I sit down withmy friends and we talk about
(23:36):
things that happen from our childhood and then all of a
sudden we're like not feeling OKfor a few days, which is
absolutely nothing like the types of conversations that I'm
having on the podcast. But in terms of a spectrum, I
think we all know how it feels sometimes to open up with our
vulnerabilities and and how sometimes we can shut the door
(23:57):
and sometimes we can't. Yeah, One of the things that we
have heard about in India is with witchcraft accusation
support or those mostly women, but not always, who have been
attacked. Some of the communities there,
unfortunately, are so many that they're coming together to work
(24:22):
through it and talking about their stories.
They'll do beautiful public art walls or other art
dramatizations together to make it a acceptable discussion, to
help educate. And so I do.
I think all of this is so delicate and I'm always
(24:42):
incredibly thankful for these brave individuals who are able.
But it's not necessary. You don't, It's not.
Obviously bravery isn't what makes it OK for you to talk
about it. I don't know why some are able
to, but those stories that are able to be told or shared do
bring hope to others. But definitely avoiding reharm
(25:07):
is incredibly important, and only each individual can decide
that for themselves. Absolutely, yeah.
And I think that's key as well to make sure that there's never
any expectation or pressure on an individual to share their
experiences. I think that's where I'm very
lucky to have. This is a 2 sided coin.
(25:27):
Absolutely. I would love to never have
another interview to do again. Imagine if we're like, oh, all
the stories have been told. There's no more stories of cults
or coercive control to to share.Of course, that's unlikely to
happen in the near future because we're still really
building this momentum and this platform of education and
understanding and legislation which plays a massive role in in
(25:51):
tackling psychological abuse. But in in terms of the podcast
itself, I don't really reach outto individuals and ask if they'd
be willing to come onto the show.
A lot of the time it's people contacting me.
And I think that that's been a really important part of the
process because I'm not, I don'tfeel like I'm putting pressure
(26:14):
on individuals by reaching out and contacting them.
And even if that was the case, Ithink in those situations, if
you're just very transparent andyou say there's absolutely no
expectation here, a lot of the time it would be word of mouth
or you see someone post like in the Colts subreddit, for
(26:37):
example. So you're already thinking, oh,
well, this person has shared part of their story online,
maybe they'd be willing to sharetheir story in a recording
capacity. And that's where it's important
to offer guests the opportunity to remain anonymous, semi
anonymous, using pseudonyms or first names only or changing the
(27:01):
spelling of the first name or not recording video, not using
landmarks or specific identifying information in an
episode and just keeping things kind of generic is just some of
the ways that you can protect the person's identity when they
come on to record an episode. But yeah, it's I think it's very
(27:22):
much on an individual basis. And even if people aren't
sharing their stories publicly, you never know the impact that
the podcast is having to those who don't come forward and say
this episode changed my life or I was going to sign up to this
group. And I'm so glad I listened to
this episode before I paid them all of this money or whatever
(27:44):
type of feedback that that comesthrough.
If you are only hearing from a certain percentage of people, I
often wonder how many people youdon't hear from and and the
impact that it's having with those that that that don't or
can't reach out. You mentioned the legislative
aspect of it and coercive control has been recognized in
(28:08):
the UK as a form of abuse. What is the impact of that
legislation? We were very lucky in 2015 to
have the Serious Crime Act introduced section 76 into law.
So section 76 of the Serious Crime Act criminalises coercive
(28:29):
and controlling behaviour in a domestic capacity.
So it means that in intimate partnerships and family
environments coercive control can be prosecuted.
But it's a very hard to, it's very hard first of all to prove
and then to prosecute that. It's really tough.
(28:50):
The nature of psychological abuse means that there are no
physical marks, there are typically no scars.
There may not be an electronic trail of abusive messages on on
WhatsApp or Facebook. There may not be voicemails.
There may not be recordings or video clips in cases where there
(29:11):
are, that can be really handy inprosecuting cases of coercive
and controlling behaviour. But sometimes it's very much
character witnesses, testimoniesand my word against yours
almost. And in those cases it can be it
can be often that narcissistic and psychopathic or very
(29:34):
controlling individuals find legal loopholes to exploit not
only in order to continue abusing and controlling the the
person that they are facing in court or the person that they
have received charges for. It can also mean that the person
that has been abused and victimised and subjugated is
(29:58):
often painted as the person thatis the abuser.
So it's very, I think prosecutors have a very tricky
job. I think police officers and
frontline workers do as well in terms of identifying coercive
control. Years ago, police officers would
show up on, on people's doorsteps for domestic issues
(30:18):
and they would say, oh, this is a woman could have a black eye
or a man could be absolutely visibly shaking in, in fear
because of his wife or children could obviously be used as a
pawn because the parents have split up and they're trying to,
they're trying to use the kids as weapons in, in this feud,
(30:40):
Whatever it looks like in terms of intimate partner violence or,
or, or domestic abuse or familial abuse, police officers
would often say this is a domestic issue and then they
would leave it at that. We have had a lot of different
pieces of legislation that recognise domestic abuse,
domestic violence and now coercive in controlling
(31:02):
behaviour. Which means that there's
statutory funding, which means that there's statutory training,
which means that non governmental organisations are
now being trained on what coercive control looks like.
The signs to look out for. Where do you send people if
you're worried or, or how do youapproach somebody that you're
concerned may be being coerced and and abused through coercive
(31:24):
and controlling behaviour? The only problem is it doesn't
expand to groups. So when we're talking about
cults, we can't actually use thelegislation on a group wide
basis. So we can't go into a Kingdom
Hall where we know Jehovah's Witnesses are protecting sexual
(31:45):
predators in a specific region because they do internal
investigations and they they have the final word and they
believe that they are above the law and all of these different
things. Just as an example to pull out
of the air. There isn't a way that we can
use the section 76 England and Wales law at the moment because
(32:06):
it it doesn't, it doesn't extendto to group settings.
There is a huge lobbying effort going on at the moment with the
Family Survival Trust, which is Auk based charity that supports
survivors of cults and coercive control and those impacted as
well. So family members who may have
lost somebody to a cult or to a coercively controlling
(32:27):
environment, along with the National Working Group of
Spiritual and Ritual Abuse, which is the same organization
who I presented for the other day at their first spiritual and
ritual abuse conference, which was incredible.
So the legislation has definitely made it more
(32:51):
recognisable. But there's still such a long
way to go. We have such a long way to go in
just, you know, having a nationwide understanding of
coercive control and that is without considering the rest of
the world where there are some other countries that have
criminalised coercive control and implemented their own
(33:14):
legislation. Scotland has a great piece of
legislation in their Domestic Abuse Act.
Australia recently, just this year in July I believe in NSW
introduced legislation that criminalises coercive control.
There's a few states in America that criminalised coercive
control. I'm told that those states
(33:36):
aren't really enacting much on those those particular pieces of
law, but they're there. These are the first steps to
having a a worldwide understanding of coercion.
I am hopeful that other countries will continue to
follow suit and we will continueto tweak and amend the
(33:57):
legislation as we did with the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021.
And what will come with that is more tweaks and more changes and
more countries following suit and so on and so forth until we
have a better understanding and grip and a better way to combat
coercive control overall. In the national working group
(34:22):
and this conference, I'm like soeager to see what's next.
I know this conference was focused on victim stories, but
you also have this strong legal component as far as expertise
and experience and as you mentioned, lobbying.
(34:42):
I'd love to hear anything out ofthat conference or something
that you think it's important for listeners to understand
about. All of the things and I, what I
mean, all of the emotions and all of the things, it was
exciting and it was nerve wracking and it was exhausting
(35:02):
and it was frustrating and it was heartbreaking and it was
motivating, inspiring, invigorating.
I, I honestly felt like I'd beenhit by a train by the end of
this conference. And then the next day I woke up
and felt like I'd been drinking for a week straight and had the
worst hangover of my life. My body and my brain felt
absolutely battered. But I also can't explain how
(35:28):
refreshing it was like. And I'd never felt this before
going into a room where everybody understands that
coercive control happens across contexts.
I feel like I've been shouting this for the last however many
years on my little soapbox and people like, AH, actually makes
sense, doesn't it? If you think about it that way.
(35:50):
But in this room, everybody already knew.
You didn't have to have that preamble.
You didn't have to have that conversation.
Everybody already knew. Everybody was on board.
Everybody wants this legislationamended.
It was just like, we could get, we could really get down to
brass tacks. We could really get down to
business and talk about how deepthis thing goes and how much
(36:12):
change we can make and where we can go next and what we can do
because we didn't have to get all of those kind of initial
conversations out the way. And I think it's really
important and it's still inspiring to have those
conversations, but it's not often I'll find myself in a room
where everybody is already at the same place.
It was just amazing. The survivors sharing their
(36:33):
stories was just equal parts harrowing and just showing us
exactly why this work is so important.
And oftentimes when you speak sothat there there were people
that were from domestic violencecharities and they were like,
(36:55):
yes, we already know all of thisstuff about cults.
They weren't three years ago. Me having this conversation with
my friend Lucy where I'm like, Oh my gosh, our work's the same
like your domestic abuser and this cult leader, like they're
the same thing. Everybody was so past that
point. It was incredible.
Jordan and the team, Sam and Tox, they put together this
(37:16):
incredible, incredible conference that I felt really,
really thankful and privileged and honoured to be a part of and
to share my master's research findings towards the end of the
day in this line up. And it was the first conference
as well. So I do feel like it's going to
continue getting bigger and better every year.
(37:38):
I think I might just need to like, book myself into a spa the
next day and just kind of like, you know, come down from all of
it because it was a lot. Talking about the various
contexts that coercive control appears in, we've even learned
about it in a witchcraft context, where people manipulate
(37:59):
somebody's fear of witchcraft inand coerce them into human
trafficking or other situations.Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I think that's really important,Josh, to to highlight, you know,
when I talk about how coercive control is present across
contexts, it's also intersects the same way that my work
(38:25):
intersects with every other person that was at this
conference. You will find typically in a
cult that there will be people that are abusive in the home and
also people that are, and those same people will be abused in
the cult. And some of those people in the
cult may then be trafficked to adifferent state or a different
(38:48):
country. So when we talk about coercive
control happening in all of these contexts, it definitely
intersects and overlaps as well.And I think that's really
important to point out. Josh.
We heard a story from one survivor who did share her
experiences of being trafficked to a different country, having
(39:08):
her passport taken away, or at least attempts to try and remove
her passport. And then she would have candles
laid outside of her door. She was forced to drink blood
and then she was told that if she didn't follow any of the
rules that she was given to the letter, the blood would kill her
from the inside out. And this to people that have not
(39:29):
grown up in environments where this type of witchcraft is used
to scare people or to control people.
That all might sound a bit ludicrous and over the top to
us. But for people that have grown
up in these belief systems whereif you come outside and there's
a chicken on your doorstep, thatmeans something very significant
in your culture, in your community, in your ancestry.
(39:53):
So it was really important to, you know, made aware of these
different types of ritualistic abuse and the different types of
witchcraft because in the conversation that we had when we
were talking about the sale of witch trials, that
representation and presentation of witchcraft was very different
(40:16):
to the ones that we heard about in the conference.
And I think again, it just showsyou like you can learn as much
as you can learn independently, but without working with other
people. You're never really going to get
all the other puzzle pieces. And that's so important when it
comes to educating yourself on the lengths that this topic
goes. Just talking about witchcraft.
(40:37):
And I was like, wow, I just didn't realise, like, the extent
of it in our conversation. And then that went even further
when I was at this conference. So yeah, it was.
My mind was like, whoa, we need to like, decompress.
I've had that experience when asthis has progressed, IA lot of
what you have shared about your journey of coming to understand
(41:01):
and to grips and perspective. I've really experienced that in
this whole witch hunt context. So you're going to be at Crime
Con next year and how will you bring the advocacy aspect into
you're connecting? I think that's really important
(41:22):
to try and hold on to some different types of events and
conferences. Of course, the spiritual and
ritual abuse conference was survivor focused and it was a
very warm, informed and it was avery smart, it was a very smart
room. I felt a bit intimidated getting
up. You know, the chief crown
prosecutor was there and I was like, oh, and there are also
(41:45):
incredibly accomplished and intelligent people at Crime Con,
the best in their field in termsof retired detectives, senior
investigating officers, forensicpsychologists, psychoanalysts.
There's there's lots of very learned people with lots of life
experience and work experience under their belt that come to
(42:06):
talk at Crime Con Very lucky to have been offered a platform a
few times at Crimecon UK. They're sponsored by true crime.
They have a huge platform and itgrows every year and they have
amazing guests and survivors andadvocates.
They have fierce family members come forward and speak about how
(42:29):
they've managed to get law changed and how they've managed
to go into parliament and talk with politicians and say this
can never happen again. And those are some of the most
heartbreaking and inspiring conversations and and talks
you'll ever hear. I often when I'm invited onto
the stage to talk, will not go up on my own.
(42:50):
I will ask somebody to come and talk with me.
Typically a cult survivor who can talk to the subject of
cults, coercive control and their personal experiences.
I think that's the heart of the podcast.
So I if I get a chance to speak in front of a live audience, I
(43:10):
still try and bring that that dynamic.
There's so much that I could sayabout cults, but when it really
comes down to what it feels liketo be either born and raised or
recruited into a cult or high control group, to experience the
level of manipulation and coercion inside that group.
(43:32):
And then to rebuild your life afterwards, which is so
important and often so overlooked in so many pieces of
media to do with cults and coercive control.
I could never do that justice. So I've been really lucky that
some amazing guests have joined me at Crime Con.
I was joined by Elgin Straight, who has a podcast called Falling
Out Pod, and he is a survivor ofthe Unification Church and he is
(43:57):
a fierce, he is a fierce, outspoken voice when it comes to
trying to rid the world of the Moonies.
I've been joined by one of the world's leading experts in
extremism and authoritarianism, which was John Atack, who wrote,
he's known as like, the Scientology Encyclopaedia, the
(44:18):
most educated person on the topic of Scientology.
And he has a book called A Pieceof Blue Sky or Let's Sell Them a
Piece of Blue Sky, which is the updated version.
And he's just like, honestly, a book of facts.
Everything he reels off is a date and a place and a person
and an anecdote and a quote. And he is amazing.
And I'm very lucky to have had him take me under his wing and
(44:41):
mentor me somewhat in how to navigate this space.
So it's, yeah, I've been really lucky with Crime Con to continue
receiving invitations back to the event and to represent cults
because I'm usually the only person there that is talking
about cults. I'm like the little resident
cult person. They call me the resident cult
expert. But again, I'm like maybe one
(45:02):
day. And also just to continue giving
or helping to give a platform for survivors to share their
stories as well in capacities that they feel comfortable with.
Is there anything else you wanted to speak to before we let
you go? Well, I've said a lot.
I've said so much. I've just rambled on, really.
(45:22):
Thank you for letting me ramble on.
Ah, just to keep learning, keep reading, keep educating yourself
on subjects that you find interesting.
Doesn't have to be cults and coercive control.
And that just happens to be whatgot me.
But I never expected to find myself in a position where I
would be an ally and I would be advocating for people and I
(45:44):
would be lobbying for legislative change to such a
capacity that I would get myselfa master's and kind of retrain
it a whole new career and area just out of an interest in a
particular subject. And that subject happened to be
cults. It's incredible what you can do
when you are just interested in something.
(46:05):
You don't have to be like tryingto take on the world or, or
trying to carry the world on your shoulders or anything like
that, but you never know who youmight be helping in just taking
an interest in something and trying to understand it a little
better. And I think that if we all just
did that a little bit more and we tried to approach that with
(46:27):
an open mind and a bit of compassion, we could be changing
our own lives and maybe other people's as well.
So yeah, just take an interest in something and then yeah, take
a little bit more. Thank you so very much.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Josh.
Thank you for all the work that you do as well and letting me
(46:49):
come and just blah blah blah blah blah on your show.
Thank you. Mary Bingham is back with Minute
with Mary. Margo Burns reminded me that one
of the best published sources inwhich she made a huge
contribution was not a primary source, but the best, the
secondary source. Wait, what?
(47:11):
That's right, Records of the Salem Witch Hunt is a top notch
secondary source. It is as close to a published
primary source available to us better than the Salem Witch
Papers, which were found to be published with some
transcription errors. The team that travelled to
locate all of the known documents pertaining to the
(47:33):
Salem Witch Trials. 4 Records ofthe Salem Witch Hunt who
transcribed these original documents from the original
handwriting were the best of thebest.
The reason it's not considered aprimary source because the
reader cannot see the original handwriting.
(47:54):
Another great source is this series.
Unlike the records of the Salem Witch Hunt, these court
documents listed in these publications, which are 9
volumes in total, do not includeevery single piece of
information for every case. Please send me an e-mail if
(48:16):
you'd like to know how to find an original court record of
Essex County in the original court recorder's handwriting so
most of the complete story of the case in which you are
interested can be presented to you.
My e-mail is barry.bingham@endwitchhunts.org.
(48:37):
Thank you. Thank you, Mary.
And Sarah has end witch hunts news.
End witch hunts News Historic justice within reach.
Maryland in Massachusetts considered generations overdue
witch trial exaggerations following Connecticut's landmark
2023 resolution HJ 34A resolution concerning certain
(48:59):
Witchcraft convictions in colonial Connecticut.
Acknowledging witch trial victims, Maryland and
Massachusetts are poised to takesimilar historic steps.
Maryland's House joint resolution, too, seeks justice
for alleged witches Rebecca Fowler and Maul Dyer, while
Massachusetts HG 3054 aims to exonerate Boston's witch trial
(49:20):
victims Margaret Jones, Elizabeth Kendall, Alice Lake,
Ann Hibbens, and Goody Glover. The momentum is building, but
these bills need public support to advance through committee and
reach full legislative votes. These victims, our neighbors
from centuries past, can no longer speak for themselves.
We must be their voice. You are part of that voice.
(49:43):
Join our community advocacy efforts.
Take action now by signing the petitions.
Sign the Massachusetts petition at change.org/witch Trials and
also sign the Maryland petition at change.org/MD Witch Trials.
Send an e-mail of support to your delegate if you live in
(50:06):
Maryland or Massachusetts. Connecticut's successful
resolution, which passed with overwhelming bipartisan support,
shows what's possible. These new initiatives recognize
that witch hunts extended beyondSalem, affecting innocent people
across multiple colonies, a pattern of persecution that
continues globally today. For more information on modern
(50:27):
witchcraft allegations, visit andwitchhunts.org, our
nonprofit. For guidance on contacting your
delegate or getting involved, visit our website.
Links to Connecticut's public testimony records are in the
show notes and are a great guideto express your own support for
the Maryland and Massachusetts efforts.
Thank you for using your voice to break the silence and help
(50:48):
securing long overdue justice for these innocent victims.
Finally, but not least, join us at Connecticut's Old State House
on February 1st at 1:00 PM for our Connecticut Witch Trials
Remembrance Event. Remembering the innocent victims
of Connecticut's witch trials. This afternoon of Reflection and
action will honor Connecticut's witch trial victims through a
(51:11):
dramatic reading, a remembrance ceremony, and a community
discussion about the history andthe path forward to a monument.
Distinguished speakers will share insights about
Connecticut's successful resolution, and Josh and I will
be there in person as the eventsemcees.
Reserve your spot today on eventbrite.com with a free
ticket. Thank you, Sarah.
(51:32):
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us for
this episode of Witch Hunt. Spend time with us again next
week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome back to Witch Hunt. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we're exploring the
dynamics of course of control with Casey Baker, host of the
Colt Vault Podcast. Casey has interviewed hundreds
of survivors, sharing the stories of life and Colts and
high control groups. What started as a lockdown
(00:20):
project has evolved into a vitalplatform for survivor voices and
advocacy. Through her work on the Colt
Vault and her recent master's degree in the psychology of
coercive control, Casey brings unique insights into how
coercive control manifests across different contexts, from
cults to domestic relationships and beyond.
(00:41):
She's joining us to discuss ethical approaches to sharing
survivor stories, current legislation around coercive
control, and how understanding these dynamics can help combat
abuse in all its forms. Our conversation with Casey
touches on serious topics including psychological abuse
and trauma. Listener discretion is advised.
(01:02):
Here's our conversation with Casey Baker of The Cult Vault.
Welcome to Witch Hunt, Casey Baker of the Cult Vault Podcast.
We connected after hearing your presentation at a Sara National
Working Group meeting because ofhow our subject matter overlaps
with yours. Thank you both so much for
having me on your podcast today.It's great to sit down and catch
(01:25):
up with both of you, Sarah and Josh.
As host of the high performing podcast Colt Vault, you've
created a vital platform where survivors share their first hand
experiences of Colts and high control groups.
Tell us about your work amplifying these important
stories. Well, it's been a bit of a
(01:46):
roller coaster really. I have found myself in this work
by accident. I think that's often the case
when you kind of connect with individuals like you, like we
have, and you start to have conversations about how people
ended up doing such niche and specific work.
(02:09):
Yay, how much? What Justin?
Well, that's that was a little pleasant introduction.
Yeah, that. Was great.
She's learning how to open her stair gate so I think that's
what the Slayer was kind of creepy the slower.
(02:30):
My love kids. Yeah, so I found myself doing
this work by accident. I'm sure anybody that has heard
me talk about this will know exactly what I'm going to say
because it feels like scripted at this point.
I was on maternity leave with our first born who was four
(02:54):
months old at the time that the first lockdown for COVID started
over here in England. And I had a partner who was
working 12 hour night shifts andwe were really struggling to
find something to keep me sane in between, you know, sleep
(03:15):
deprivation and cluster breastfeeding and and just kind
of navigating parenthood as first time parents in the middle
of a nationwide and global at that point wide lockdown where
we were not able to have, you know, external support.
And I realized that I just needed something to keep myself
(03:37):
stimulated, and that turned out to be podcasting.
I tried a number of different things, found an old room mic
and decided that I was going to start a podcast.
And even if nobody listened, at least I will have spent some of
what free time I had either whenbaby was sleeping or when
partner was home doing somethingthat felt like you could see the
(04:01):
results at the end of it. So people were learning how to
do the splits and I was just like, wow, you can actually see
how much you've progressed with learning something new.
So I started a podcast about cults.
I didn't expect anybody to listen, but after the first few
episodes of covering things likeJonestown and the Branch
(04:21):
Davidians and asking the question on whether, you know,
like ISKCON and the Hari Krishnas, is that a cult?
I had a few people reach out to me and explained that they
themselves had been in cults andwere looking to share their
experiences. So I started interviewing
(04:43):
survivors. And from there, it really just
snowballed into to something unplanned, unprecedented,
educational. So five years on, I think we're
close to something like 400 episodes on the podcast.
And I realised that I had been learning so much along the way
(05:05):
that I wanted to try and quantify academically some of
the stuff that I had kind of self educated myself on.
And so tomorrow I graduate with a master's in the psychology of
coercive control. And that's why I'm recording
this evening with my Pearl is in.
(05:27):
It's a very Scouse thing, which is like Liverpool, England.
It's very common and typical fora woman to have her curled it
before a night out and I am up in Liverpool in England, so I
feel more comfortable with my curlers in in Liverpool than I
do with them out. That's awesome, congratulations.
(05:50):
Do we need to define cult? Where do the boundaries fall
around that? I think that's every person you
ask. How do you define the term cult?
Will define it slightly differently, even different
dictionaries that have differentdefinitions for the term cult.
(06:11):
If you ask people in mainstream Christianity, they are likely to
say that anything that doesn't conform to mainstream
Christianity is a cult. So things like 7th Day Adventism
is a cult or, you know, and thenall of the splinters that come
from that, because the brand of Davidians came from the 7th Day
(06:32):
Adventists, which came from mainstream Christianity.
And there's so many different religious sects and factions
that you can kind of look at that have had that same journey.
But Christian Scientists, they would be labeled a cult movement
by people in mainstream Christianity.
(06:52):
And, and if you were to speak tocult experts, a lot of cult
experts would say that there is a charismatic authoritarian
leader who demands, well, commands totalistic control of
(07:15):
individuals underneath them and demands that people obey a
certain belief system that is not reflected in mainstream
society typically would be seen as quite radical or extreme.
Especially if those same belief systems were identified in
(07:41):
mainstream religions outside of Christianity, like Islam, for
example. Which I think is a really
interesting thing to look at on its own, how the rhetoric and
the dogma and the theology is pretty much translatable between
the major religious texts. But the way that propaganda
(08:04):
works and the way that extremismworks, we are quick to identify
Islamic extremists, but we aren't able to look at the FLDS
or Christian nationalism or Dominion theology and say, oh,
actually, hang on, If you're talking about the one in true
religion and supreme human race,that all comes down to a
(08:28):
theological basis, then that's all very similar.
So in terms of defining the termcult, it's really tricky.
There's even a group of people that are often referred to as
cult apologists in the cult education and academic and
awareness space that are defenders of cults and will use
(08:52):
terminology like new religious movement.
And instead of labelling a groupas a cult, even if that group or
organizational movement fits theframework of identifiable
markers that make up what we recognise to be a cult, they are
often times paid by these groupsto speak on national,
(09:16):
international stages and defend the the movement, sometimes in
the court of law. These people are also employed
by cults to disagree with the cult expert that's been brought
in to testify why groups cult. And then the court apologists
will be brought up by the opposing side to say actually
(09:38):
this is not a cult for all of these reasons.
So then massive divides in the cult education awareness space
and how you would define a cult or how you would even summarize
the definition. My really long winded response
is exactly what I said at the start.
Everybody you ask will define a cult slightly differently, I
(09:59):
think. That's really great.
That is, so much of of it mirrors a lot of what we see
with witchcraft and which there's just all of this space
and room for those definitions. Yeah, yeah.
I think what's really tricky is that I think you have a much
(10:21):
harder battle with the term witch because people can
positively identify with that word and it can also be
pejorative. Whereas the word cult, I think
is unanimously universally pejorative, especially after the
70s and 80s. Before that, I think that word
(10:42):
was used in a pejorative sense, but now it is mostly related to
mass murders and suicides and that's how the word reached
mainstream pejorative kind of contextualisation, whereas which
some people will take pride in in in identifying with that
(11:04):
term. So I think you've got a harder
job in trying to work between the two.
It is hard to separate between different definitions of of
things. And like you said about cults,
it depends on who's defining it,how they're going to define the
word. It's relative to everybody's own
(11:27):
perspective, and I think witchcraft is similar.
Your perspective might be witchcraft is this positive
thing? Or your perspective might be
witchcraft is this fearful thing.
And how has your understanding of quote dynamics change since
you began the podcast? My gosh, it's been another whole
(11:49):
roller coaster like this. This specific part of the
journey has been probably the most illuminating for me in a
personal sense. I was very much somebody.
That was what I would call an unethical true crime content
consumer. I would listen to really
(12:13):
untactful, non compassionate true crime documentaries and
podcasts and I would be really detached from the information
that I was listening to. I would just stick something on
to go for a walk or drive to work.
And I didn't really ever consider the fact that these
(12:38):
stories were real people who hadfamilies and loved ones.
And I didn't ever really realisethat most of the episode content
was based around the perpetratoror the serial killer or the cult
leader. It was only after I started
(13:00):
speaking to cult survivors that my whole kind of perception
shifted on not just true crime content consuming and how to
really try to develop my own more ethical content in terms of
transparency and consent and personal psycho education.
(13:25):
So I would understand the experiences that the people I
was speaking with had been through, at least to some
extent. I haven't been in a cult, so
I'll never really fully understand.
And everybody's experience is different.
So even if I had been in a cult,my experience would still be
different to those who had been in different environments or
even the same environment. And all of these things I just
(13:46):
had never considered until I started the podcast itself and
speaking with survivors. And I used to definitely be one
of these people who would say, oh, if I was in an abusive
relationship, like why didn't they just leave?
Like I would just leave or who joins a cult.
I would never join a cult or only stupid people join cults.
(14:10):
And these really unhelpful misconceptions that the general
wider public have about cults and coercive control in terms of
abuse outside of cultic abuse ordomestic abuse.
Like wherever you find coercive control, if it's in the
workplace, if it's in the family, if it's in your yoga
(14:31):
group or your church or your knitting group, or even in just
some of the friendship groups that you have, the dog walking
group that you go to, wherever you find coercive control.
I, I really did have this skewedvictim blaming mentality.
And I'm not ashamed to talk about it because I think it
(14:52):
shows that anybody can go on this learning journey and
everybody can have this shift inperception and education and
understanding and compassion. But it does make me a bit
uncomfortable to relive those really ignorant moments that I
used to have. I have like 2 questions now I
(15:14):
got to decide which one wins. But let's talk about coercive
control. What do we need to know about it
or what really developed around it for you with your research I.
Was having so many conversationswith people about abuse and
(15:39):
usually it would come from me talking about the work that I do
on the podcast, speaking with cult survivors and then talking
to somebody that like a crime con, for example, a fellow
podcaster who is talking to victims of domestic violence or
domestic abuse. And we would have these
conversations where we'd be talking about the same thing.
(16:00):
I'd be saying, well, the cult leader does this.
And then my friend Lucy, who hasa podcast called You Don't Own
Me, she would be saying, oh, butthat's what the, that's what the
domestic abuser does. That's what the perpetrator
does. That's what the, you know,
violent spouse or the, the psychologically abusive spouse
does. And I was thinking, Oh my gosh,
there's no way that this is justhappening in all of these
(16:23):
different pockets. And it's not all connected
somehow. But my brain wasn't going that
far. I was speaking with people who
had been in the military and they were talking about their
basic training and how coercive it was.
And I was thinking, wow, that's just what cult leaders do.
You know, that's just the the way that cults are set up.
(16:43):
And I just wasn't realising thatall of these different contexts
or environments where coercive control was taking place were
all linked with this common thread.
And it was only after I heard the term coercive control and I
looked down at the definition, an act or a pattern of acts of
assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation with an aim to
(17:09):
calm, punish, frighten and control somebody.
And I was like, wow, that could be the definition of cults, but
it's also the definition of workplace abuse or sports abuse
or human trafficking and modern slavery, the type of control
that's exerted in that environment.
And it was only when I came across the term coercive control
(17:30):
that I was like, shit, that's the thread that that ties all of
these contexts and environments together.
And it was like a light bulb moment.
And I was so relieved. But then I thought, what do I do
with this now? I can start to invite survivors
of other forms of or other contexts of abuse and not other
forms because as we've just explained, it's all coercive and
(17:52):
controlling behaviour. But I could start to ask human
trafficking survivors or people that have experienced workplace
abuse or people that have experienced female genital
mutilation or breast flattening or any of these types of
coercive procedures and abuses onto the podcast to share their
(18:13):
experiences So we could continueto kind of like unify these
contexts somehow. And then I came across the
master's course at Salford University, The Psychology of
Coercive Control, and it was being pitched as the only course
of its kind, which worried me atfirst.
(18:33):
Some people were like wow, it's the only course of its kind.
And I was like, that's really dodgy to me though, because 1 of
Lifton's 8 criteria is mystical manipulation, where they would
say wow, join our group. We have the one true, we have
the one true word, you know, we want, we know the one true
answer to this question. We have this thing and it's
(18:54):
one-of-a-kind. So I was a bit dubious because
if anybody's presenting themselves in that way, I think
it's important to try and be as questioning and critical as
possible. But I was also coming across
moments of people saying, oh, you're a cult expert and I'd be
(19:16):
like, I'm a cult expert. I'm like, maybe I'm like 4
persons version of a cult expert.
I'm like, I'm just over here, like I, I can answer a few
questions. And the more it happened and the
more uncomfortable I felt, the more I thought maybe if I could
quantify academically everythingthat I'd learned over the last
(19:39):
five years, I might feel a bit more comfortable with people
saying she's a Co expert. Or can you come and be an expert
witness of this federal trial that we have coming up?
So I went through the Salford University course.
I was very thankful to get a place on the psychology course
because I have an arts undergraduate background, so I
(19:59):
didn't know if I'd be able to ifI'd be eligible for a psychology
master's. But yeah, one year on and we're
done. We're finished with it.
And I was so relieved that it's over.
It was a lot of hard work, but yes, I am now Casey Baker MSC.
Well done. And I want to add that one of
(20:20):
the things I love about podcasting is you get some
multicultural experiences and your story with your hair today
is one of those. I love that I it's like
unexpected. But when you talked about being
so comfortable in the community and I'm like, I just learned
about that culture there a little bit more so.
(20:41):
Anyway, yeah, if you ever come over to England and you visit
Liverpool, you'll see exactly what I mean.
It's. Yeah, there's a pyjama culture
over here as well. If you go out in your curlers
and your pyjamas, like people know you be getting married in
the morning, you know, that's serious.
Like I'm ready for a night out Aesthetic.
Yeah, it's great. It's not something that I would
(21:02):
have done when I lived down South, but now that I've lived
up here in the north in this particular area for a long time,
it's it's great. Yeah, I do.
I'm. I'm very lucky and fortunate to
have the opportunity to speak with people from all around the
world. I've spoken with people from the
(21:23):
Philippines, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa.
I speak more with people over inAmerica than I do people from
here in England. But I'm so lucky with the
diversity of guests that are willing to come and share their
(21:43):
experiences on the podcast. It's an incredible education for
me. And I received so many emails
and comments on YouTube and reviews on, on, on Apple
Podcasts of just people thankingthe survivors for coming onto
the podcast to share their experiences and how validating
(22:05):
that is for other survivors who are tuning into the podcast.
So it's multifaceted in the impact that it has.
And you know, and the, and, and the testimonies that each brave
person comes forward to tell moments of their deepest
vulnerabilities and most difficult moments in their
lives. And it's hopefully a healing
(22:27):
experience more than a re traumatising experience because
that's something that I do try and avoid at all costs with each
guest that comes onto the show it.
Requires a special touch, doesn't it?
I I think so. I think the more that the more
that I can learn and the more compassionate I can be, the
(22:51):
hopefully the more supportive and reassuring the process of
being on the podcast is. But that's why, as you 2 are
both know, there is a pre interview process that I tried
to go through with each participant before we record.
It's not something that you would ever want to just sit down
and say let's chat without any type of preparation.
(23:14):
But there is always the risk that reharm will happen, that re
traumatisation will happen as asmuch as we try to avoid that.
Any time you sit down to talk about the experiences that
you've had in your life that have been the most difficult,
sometimes that will just stay with you.
I have that when I sit down withmy friends and we talk about
(23:36):
things that happen from our childhood and then all of a
sudden we're like not feeling OKfor a few days, which is
absolutely nothing like the types of conversations that I'm
having on the podcast. But in terms of a spectrum, I
think we all know how it feels sometimes to open up with our
vulnerabilities and and how sometimes we can shut the door
(23:57):
and sometimes we can't. Yeah, One of the things that we
have heard about in India is with witchcraft accusation
support or those mostly women, but not always, who have been
attacked. Some of the communities there,
unfortunately, are so many that they're coming together to work
(24:22):
through it and talking about their stories.
They'll do beautiful public art walls or other art
dramatizations together to make it a acceptable discussion, to
help educate. And so I do.
I think all of this is so delicate and I'm always
(24:42):
incredibly thankful for these brave individuals who are able.
But it's not necessary. You don't, It's not.
Obviously bravery isn't what makes it OK for you to talk
about it. I don't know why some are able
to, but those stories that are able to be told or shared do
bring hope to others. But definitely avoiding reharm
(25:07):
is incredibly important, and only each individual can decide
that for themselves. Absolutely, yeah.
And I think that's key as well to make sure that there's never
any expectation or pressure on an individual to share their
experiences. I think that's where I'm very
lucky to have. This is a 2 sided coin.
(25:27):
Absolutely. I would love to never have
another interview to do again. Imagine if we're like, oh, all
the stories have been told. There's no more stories of cults
or coercive control to to share.Of course, that's unlikely to
happen in the near future because we're still really
building this momentum and this platform of education and
understanding and legislation which plays a massive role in in
(25:51):
tackling psychological abuse. But in in terms of the podcast
itself, I don't really reach outto individuals and ask if they'd
be willing to come onto the show.
A lot of the time it's people contacting me.
And I think that that's been a really important part of the
process because I'm not, I don'tfeel like I'm putting pressure
(26:14):
on individuals by reaching out and contacting them.
And even if that was the case, Ithink in those situations, if
you're just very transparent andyou say there's absolutely no
expectation here, a lot of the time it would be word of mouth
or you see someone post like in the Colts subreddit, for
(26:37):
example. So you're already thinking, oh,
well, this person has shared part of their story online,
maybe they'd be willing to sharetheir story in a recording
capacity. And that's where it's important
to offer guests the opportunity to remain anonymous, semi
anonymous, using pseudonyms or first names only or changing the
(27:01):
spelling of the first name or not recording video, not using
landmarks or specific identifying information in an
episode and just keeping things kind of generic is just some of
the ways that you can protect the person's identity when they
come on to record an episode. But yeah, it's I think it's very
(27:22):
much on an individual basis. And even if people aren't
sharing their stories publicly, you never know the impact that
the podcast is having to those who don't come forward and say
this episode changed my life or I was going to sign up to this
group. And I'm so glad I listened to
this episode before I paid them all of this money or whatever
(27:44):
type of feedback that that comesthrough.
If you are only hearing from a certain percentage of people, I
often wonder how many people youdon't hear from and and the
impact that it's having with those that that that don't or
can't reach out. You mentioned the legislative
aspect of it and coercive control has been recognized in
(28:08):
the UK as a form of abuse. What is the impact of that
legislation? We were very lucky in 2015 to
have the Serious Crime Act introduced section 76 into law.
So section 76 of the Serious Crime Act criminalises coercive
(28:29):
and controlling behaviour in a domestic capacity.
So it means that in intimate partnerships and family
environments coercive control can be prosecuted.
But it's a very hard to, it's very hard first of all to prove
and then to prosecute that. It's really tough.
(28:50):
The nature of psychological abuse means that there are no
physical marks, there are typically no scars.
There may not be an electronic trail of abusive messages on on
WhatsApp or Facebook. There may not be voicemails.
There may not be recordings or video clips in cases where there
(29:11):
are, that can be really handy inprosecuting cases of coercive
and controlling behaviour. But sometimes it's very much
character witnesses, testimoniesand my word against yours
almost. And in those cases it can be it
can be often that narcissistic and psychopathic or very
(29:34):
controlling individuals find legal loopholes to exploit not
only in order to continue abusing and controlling the the
person that they are facing in court or the person that they
have received charges for. It can also mean that the person
that has been abused and victimised and subjugated is
(29:58):
often painted as the person thatis the abuser.
So it's very, I think prosecutors have a very tricky
job. I think police officers and
frontline workers do as well in terms of identifying coercive
control. Years ago, police officers would
show up on, on people's doorsteps for domestic issues
(30:18):
and they would say, oh, this is a woman could have a black eye
or a man could be absolutely visibly shaking in, in fear
because of his wife or children could obviously be used as a
pawn because the parents have split up and they're trying to,
they're trying to use the kids as weapons in, in this feud,
(30:40):
Whatever it looks like in terms of intimate partner violence or,
or, or domestic abuse or familial abuse, police officers
would often say this is a domestic issue and then they
would leave it at that. We have had a lot of different
pieces of legislation that recognise domestic abuse,
domestic violence and now coercive in controlling
(31:02):
behaviour. Which means that there's
statutory funding, which means that there's statutory training,
which means that non governmental organisations are
now being trained on what coercive control looks like.
The signs to look out for. Where do you send people if
you're worried or, or how do youapproach somebody that you're
concerned may be being coerced and and abused through coercive
(31:24):
and controlling behaviour? The only problem is it doesn't
expand to groups. So when we're talking about
cults, we can't actually use thelegislation on a group wide
basis. So we can't go into a Kingdom
Hall where we know Jehovah's Witnesses are protecting sexual
(31:45):
predators in a specific region because they do internal
investigations and they they have the final word and they
believe that they are above the law and all of these different
things. Just as an example to pull out
of the air. There isn't a way that we can
use the section 76 England and Wales law at the moment because
(32:06):
it it doesn't, it doesn't extendto to group settings.
There is a huge lobbying effort going on at the moment with the
Family Survival Trust, which is Auk based charity that supports
survivors of cults and coercive control and those impacted as
well. So family members who may have
lost somebody to a cult or to a coercively controlling
(32:27):
environment, along with the National Working Group of
Spiritual and Ritual Abuse, which is the same organization
who I presented for the other day at their first spiritual and
ritual abuse conference, which was incredible.
So the legislation has definitely made it more
(32:51):
recognisable. But there's still such a long
way to go. We have such a long way to go in
just, you know, having a nationwide understanding of
coercive control and that is without considering the rest of
the world where there are some other countries that have
criminalised coercive control and implemented their own
(33:14):
legislation. Scotland has a great piece of
legislation in their Domestic Abuse Act.
Australia recently, just this year in July I believe in NSW
introduced legislation that criminalises coercive control.
There's a few states in America that criminalised coercive
control. I'm told that those states
(33:36):
aren't really enacting much on those those particular pieces of
law, but they're there. These are the first steps to
having a a worldwide understanding of coercion.
I am hopeful that other countries will continue to
follow suit and we will continueto tweak and amend the
(33:57):
legislation as we did with the Domestic Abuse Act in 2021.
And what will come with that is more tweaks and more changes and
more countries following suit and so on and so forth until we
have a better understanding and grip and a better way to combat
coercive control overall. In the national working group
(34:22):
and this conference, I'm like soeager to see what's next.
I know this conference was focused on victim stories, but
you also have this strong legal component as far as expertise
and experience and as you mentioned, lobbying.
(34:42):
I'd love to hear anything out ofthat conference or something
that you think it's important for listeners to understand
about. All of the things and I, what I
mean, all of the emotions and all of the things, it was
exciting and it was nerve wracking and it was exhausting
(35:02):
and it was frustrating and it was heartbreaking and it was
motivating, inspiring, invigorating.
I, I honestly felt like I'd beenhit by a train by the end of
this conference. And then the next day I woke up
and felt like I'd been drinking for a week straight and had the
worst hangover of my life. My body and my brain felt
absolutely battered. But I also can't explain how
(35:28):
refreshing it was like. And I'd never felt this before
going into a room where everybody understands that
coercive control happens across contexts.
I feel like I've been shouting this for the last however many
years on my little soapbox and people like, AH, actually makes
sense, doesn't it? If you think about it that way.
(35:50):
But in this room, everybody already knew.
You didn't have to have that preamble.
You didn't have to have that conversation.
Everybody already knew. Everybody was on board.
Everybody wants this legislationamended.
It was just like, we could get, we could really get down to
brass tacks. We could really get down to
business and talk about how deepthis thing goes and how much
(36:12):
change we can make and where we can go next and what we can do
because we didn't have to get all of those kind of initial
conversations out the way. And I think it's really
important and it's still inspiring to have those
conversations, but it's not often I'll find myself in a room
where everybody is already at the same place.
It was just amazing. The survivors sharing their
(36:33):
stories was just equal parts harrowing and just showing us
exactly why this work is so important.
And oftentimes when you speak sothat there there were people
that were from domestic violencecharities and they were like,
(36:55):
yes, we already know all of thisstuff about cults.
They weren't three years ago. Me having this conversation with
my friend Lucy where I'm like, Oh my gosh, our work's the same
like your domestic abuser and this cult leader, like they're
the same thing. Everybody was so past that
point. It was incredible.
Jordan and the team, Sam and Tox, they put together this
(37:16):
incredible, incredible conference that I felt really,
really thankful and privileged and honoured to be a part of and
to share my master's research findings towards the end of the
day in this line up. And it was the first conference
as well. So I do feel like it's going to
continue getting bigger and better every year.
(37:38):
I think I might just need to like, book myself into a spa the
next day and just kind of like, you know, come down from all of
it because it was a lot. Talking about the various
contexts that coercive control appears in, we've even learned
about it in a witchcraft context, where people manipulate
(37:59):
somebody's fear of witchcraft inand coerce them into human
trafficking or other situations.Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
I think that's really important,Josh, to to highlight, you know,
when I talk about how coercive control is present across
contexts, it's also intersects the same way that my work
(38:25):
intersects with every other person that was at this
conference. You will find typically in a
cult that there will be people that are abusive in the home and
also people that are, and those same people will be abused in
the cult. And some of those people in the
cult may then be trafficked to adifferent state or a different
(38:48):
country. So when we talk about coercive
control happening in all of these contexts, it definitely
intersects and overlaps as well.And I think that's really
important to point out. Josh.
We heard a story from one survivor who did share her
experiences of being trafficked to a different country, having
(39:08):
her passport taken away, or at least attempts to try and remove
her passport. And then she would have candles
laid outside of her door. She was forced to drink blood
and then she was told that if she didn't follow any of the
rules that she was given to the letter, the blood would kill her
from the inside out. And this to people that have not
(39:29):
grown up in environments where this type of witchcraft is used
to scare people or to control people.
That all might sound a bit ludicrous and over the top to
us. But for people that have grown
up in these belief systems whereif you come outside and there's
a chicken on your doorstep, thatmeans something very significant
in your culture, in your community, in your ancestry.
(39:53):
So it was really important to, you know, made aware of these
different types of ritualistic abuse and the different types of
witchcraft because in the conversation that we had when we
were talking about the sale of witch trials, that
representation and presentation of witchcraft was very different
(40:16):
to the ones that we heard about in the conference.
And I think again, it just showsyou like you can learn as much
as you can learn independently, but without working with other
people. You're never really going to get
all the other puzzle pieces. And that's so important when it
comes to educating yourself on the lengths that this topic
goes. Just talking about witchcraft.
(40:37):
And I was like, wow, I just didn't realise, like, the extent
of it in our conversation. And then that went even further
when I was at this conference. So yeah, it was.
My mind was like, whoa, we need to like, decompress.
I've had that experience when asthis has progressed, IA lot of
what you have shared about your journey of coming to understand
(41:01):
and to grips and perspective. I've really experienced that in
this whole witch hunt context. So you're going to be at Crime
Con next year and how will you bring the advocacy aspect into
you're connecting? I think that's really important
(41:22):
to try and hold on to some different types of events and
conferences. Of course, the spiritual and
ritual abuse conference was survivor focused and it was a
very warm, informed and it was avery smart, it was a very smart
room. I felt a bit intimidated getting
up. You know, the chief crown
prosecutor was there and I was like, oh, and there are also
(41:45):
incredibly accomplished and intelligent people at Crime Con,
the best in their field in termsof retired detectives, senior
investigating officers, forensicpsychologists, psychoanalysts.
There's there's lots of very learned people with lots of life
experience and work experience under their belt that come to
(42:06):
talk at Crime Con Very lucky to have been offered a platform a
few times at Crimecon UK. They're sponsored by true crime.
They have a huge platform and itgrows every year and they have
amazing guests and survivors andadvocates.
They have fierce family members come forward and speak about how
(42:29):
they've managed to get law changed and how they've managed
to go into parliament and talk with politicians and say this
can never happen again. And those are some of the most
heartbreaking and inspiring conversations and and talks
you'll ever hear. I often when I'm invited onto
the stage to talk, will not go up on my own.
(42:50):
I will ask somebody to come and talk with me.
Typically a cult survivor who can talk to the subject of
cults, coercive control and their personal experiences.
I think that's the heart of the podcast.
So I if I get a chance to speak in front of a live audience, I
(43:10):
still try and bring that that dynamic.
There's so much that I could sayabout cults, but when it really
comes down to what it feels liketo be either born and raised or
recruited into a cult or high control group, to experience the
level of manipulation and coercion inside that group.
(43:32):
And then to rebuild your life afterwards, which is so
important and often so overlooked in so many pieces of
media to do with cults and coercive control.
I could never do that justice. So I've been really lucky that
some amazing guests have joined me at Crime Con.
I was joined by Elgin Straight, who has a podcast called Falling
Out Pod, and he is a survivor ofthe Unification Church and he is
(43:57):
a fierce, he is a fierce, outspoken voice when it comes to
trying to rid the world of the Moonies.
I've been joined by one of the world's leading experts in
extremism and authoritarianism, which was John Atack, who wrote,
he's known as like, the Scientology Encyclopaedia, the
(44:18):
most educated person on the topic of Scientology.
And he has a book called A Pieceof Blue Sky or Let's Sell Them a
Piece of Blue Sky, which is the updated version.
And he's just like, honestly, a book of facts.
Everything he reels off is a date and a place and a person
and an anecdote and a quote. And he is amazing.
And I'm very lucky to have had him take me under his wing and
(44:41):
mentor me somewhat in how to navigate this space.
So it's, yeah, I've been really lucky with Crime Con to continue
receiving invitations back to the event and to represent cults
because I'm usually the only person there that is talking
about cults. I'm like the little resident
cult person. They call me the resident cult
expert. But again, I'm like maybe one
(45:02):
day. And also just to continue giving
or helping to give a platform for survivors to share their
stories as well in capacities that they feel comfortable with.
Is there anything else you wanted to speak to before we let
you go? Well, I've said a lot.
I've said so much. I've just rambled on, really.
(45:22):
Thank you for letting me ramble on.
Ah, just to keep learning, keep reading, keep educating yourself
on subjects that you find interesting.
Doesn't have to be cults and coercive control.
And that just happens to be whatgot me.
But I never expected to find myself in a position where I
would be an ally and I would be advocating for people and I
(45:44):
would be lobbying for legislative change to such a
capacity that I would get myselfa master's and kind of retrain
it a whole new career and area just out of an interest in a
particular subject. And that subject happened to be
cults. It's incredible what you can do
when you are just interested in something.
(46:05):
You don't have to be like tryingto take on the world or, or
trying to carry the world on your shoulders or anything like
that, but you never know who youmight be helping in just taking
an interest in something and trying to understand it a little
better. And I think that if we all just
did that a little bit more and we tried to approach that with
(46:27):
an open mind and a bit of compassion, we could be changing
our own lives and maybe other people's as well.
So yeah, just take an interest in something and then yeah, take
a little bit more. Thank you so very much.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you, Sarah. Thank you, Josh.
Thank you for all the work that you do as well and letting me
(46:49):
come and just blah blah blah blah blah on your show.
Thank you. Mary Bingham is back with Minute
with Mary. Margo Burns reminded me that one
of the best published sources inwhich she made a huge
contribution was not a primary source, but the best, the
secondary source. Wait, what?
(47:11):
That's right, Records of the Salem Witch Hunt is a top notch
secondary source. It is as close to a published
primary source available to us better than the Salem Witch
Papers, which were found to be published with some
transcription errors. The team that travelled to
locate all of the known documents pertaining to the
(47:33):
Salem Witch Trials. 4 Records ofthe Salem Witch Hunt who
transcribed these original documents from the original
handwriting were the best of thebest.
The reason it's not considered aprimary source because the
reader cannot see the original handwriting.
(47:54):
Another great source is this series.
Unlike the records of the Salem Witch Hunt, these court
documents listed in these publications, which are 9
volumes in total, do not includeevery single piece of
information for every case. Please send me an e-mail if
(48:16):
you'd like to know how to find an original court record of
Essex County in the original court recorder's handwriting so
most of the complete story of the case in which you are
interested can be presented to you.
My e-mail is barry.bingham@endwitchhunts.org.
(48:37):
Thank you. Thank you, Mary.
And Sarah has end witch hunts news.
End witch hunts News Historic justice within reach.
Maryland in Massachusetts considered generations overdue
witch trial exaggerations following Connecticut's landmark
2023 resolution HJ 34A resolution concerning certain
(48:59):
Witchcraft convictions in colonial Connecticut.
Acknowledging witch trial victims, Maryland and
Massachusetts are poised to takesimilar historic steps.
Maryland's House joint resolution, too, seeks justice
for alleged witches Rebecca Fowler and Maul Dyer, while
Massachusetts HG 3054 aims to exonerate Boston's witch trial
(49:20):
victims Margaret Jones, Elizabeth Kendall, Alice Lake,
Ann Hibbens, and Goody Glover. The momentum is building, but
these bills need public support to advance through committee and
reach full legislative votes. These victims, our neighbors
from centuries past, can no longer speak for themselves.
We must be their voice. You are part of that voice.
(49:43):
Join our community advocacy efforts.
Take action now by signing the petitions.
Sign the Massachusetts petition at change.org/witch Trials and
also sign the Maryland petition at change.org/MD Witch Trials.
Send an e-mail of support to your delegate if you live in
(50:06):
Maryland or Massachusetts. Connecticut's successful
resolution, which passed with overwhelming bipartisan support,
shows what's possible. These new initiatives recognize
that witch hunts extended beyondSalem, affecting innocent people
across multiple colonies, a pattern of persecution that
continues globally today. For more information on modern
(50:27):
witchcraft allegations, visit andwitchhunts.org, our
nonprofit. For guidance on contacting your
delegate or getting involved, visit our website.
Links to Connecticut's public testimony records are in the
show notes and are a great guideto express your own support for
the Maryland and Massachusetts efforts.
Thank you for using your voice to break the silence and help
(50:48):
securing long overdue justice for these innocent victims.
Finally, but not least, join us at Connecticut's Old State House
on February 1st at 1:00 PM for our Connecticut Witch Trials
Remembrance Event. Remembering the innocent victims
of Connecticut's witch trials. This afternoon of Reflection and
action will honor Connecticut's witch trial victims through a
(51:11):
dramatic reading, a remembrance ceremony, and a community
discussion about the history andthe path forward to a monument.
Distinguished speakers will share insights about
Connecticut's successful resolution, and Josh and I will
be there in person as the eventsemcees.
Reserve your spot today on eventbrite.com with a free
ticket. Thank you, Sarah.
(51:32):
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us for
this episode of Witch Hunt. Spend time with us again next
week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.