March 16, 2025 • 40 mins
Welcome back to our Podcathon series, "Ending Witch Hunts."
In this second installment, Josh and Sarah continue the full story of witch hunting by examining contemporary witch hunts across Africa. As Sarah reveals, "The witch hunting story is bigger than just what most people know. Pull back each layer and you find that witch hunts aren't a tall tale or an open-and-shut case."
We will cover several nations across Africa and how advocates in specific communities are supporting victims and educating the community. On this second day of Podcathon, we feature a special update from human rights activist Dr. Leo Igwe of Advocacy for Alleged Witches in Nigeria.
Podcathon is a global movement to spread awareness about charities. Join us each day March 15-21 as we participate in Podcathon 2025, where more than 1,500 podcasters unite to amplify causes close to their hearts. We're proud to participate with our nonprofit End Witch Hunts, which works to educate about persecution of alleged witches worldwide.
Tune in daily as we uncover this complex story layer by layer. Learn more at podcasthon.org and discover how you can help at www.endwitchhunts.org.Witch Hunt podcast
Donate to Witch Hunt Podcast Conference Fund
Boris Gershman Witch Hunt Podcast Episode
Witchcraft Beliefs Around the World: An Exploratory Analysis
The International Alliance to End Witch Hunts
Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Nigeria
Alhzeimer Dementia Namibia on Facebook
Total Life Enhancement Center, Ghana
The Sanneh Institute: Research, Religious, Society
Advocacy Against Witch Hunts, South Africa
Sierra Leone Association of Persons with Albinism
Sierra Leone Association of Persons with Albinism Facebook Page
The Source of the Nile Union of Persons with Albinism (SNUPA)
Case Study, Synergies: Contagion of Positive Action
Stop Child Witchcraft Accusations
Pan African Parliament Guidelines on Accusations of Witchcraft and Ritual Attacks
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Josh Hutchinson. She's Sarah Jack and This is
Witch Hunt Podcast. Welcome back to our podcast THON
series Ending Witch Hunts. Today we pick up the full story
of witch hunting by discussing contemporary witch hunts across
the globe, and we're focusing onAfrica in this one.
Podcast Thon is a global movement to spread the word
(00:23):
about charities by podcasts all over the world.
Today from us, you'll hear aboutcharities that have been
featured on our podcast and previous expert interviews.
Yeah, we talked, of course, about our own charity in witch
hunts. Today you're going to hear from
(00:44):
Advocate Leo Ikwe from Advocacy for Alleged Witches.
We've also talked about the Sierra Leone Association for
Persons with Albinism. One of our very first advocacy
episodes was from Advocacy Against Witch Hunts in South
Africa. We'll also talk about stop child
(01:07):
witch accusations. And in Ghana, Total Life
Enhancement Center and the Senate Institute.
Again, we'll talk about humanistMalawi.
And Alzheimer's dementia. Namibia.
And from an upcoming episode, the source of the Nile Union,
(01:28):
persons with albinism, please support these organizations.
We'll have more information on them later in the podcast and
we'll have the links in the shownotes.
And then after today, you still get four more podcasts on
episodes. I'm so excited to keep doing
this. It's been very enjoyable making
(01:49):
these. Yeah.
Earlier this week, we were in preparation for podcasts on we
connected with human rights advocate Doctor Leo Egue from
Advocacy for Alleged Witches in Nigeria.
Leo's been our guest on two episodes in the past, so be sure
to check those out later as well.
(02:10):
Leo Egue, thank you so much for coming on to Witch Hunt Podcast
today and giving us an update. But first, I want to thank you
for all of your hard work every day and for the education that
you've given us and for coming to Witch Hunt to tell us what's
going on. Yeah, It's my pleasure, Sarah.
(02:31):
It's my pleasure, Josh. And thank you also for the work
you're doing, you know, out there.
Thank you. Thanks.
What priorities is advocacy for alleged witches focused on in
2025? We have the following
priorities. First of all is to always be
(02:53):
there for the accused. Yes, we want to be sure that
anytime we got to know that anybody is accused anyway within
Nigeria or beyond, we will say something, we will respond, we
will react because that ties into our mission in terms of
(03:14):
trying to recalibrate the way accusations of witchcraft, they
are managed. Because often when people are
accused, it fizzes out and the person is either killed or the
person is punished or the personis thrown into jail and nobody
hears about it. So we, it's still our priority
to be there and be able to intervene as soon as we get to
(03:36):
know that somebody is accused orsomebody is prosecuted.
Or as we have seen in Zambia, some people were charged to
court because they wanted to, they, they were accused of, they
were attempting to kill the president, you know, using
witchcraft. And very often it is still the
news of the accusers. Now what dominates the media.
(03:57):
So we will not have to challengethe accusers, try to highlight
the gaps either in their claims or the baseless nature of the
allegations that bring in, yes, provide the council narrative
that still remains our priority in 2025.
Another thing we need to we're also doing is begin to let
(04:17):
organizations or institutions that either promote human
rights, the rights of women and children, like the International
Federation of Women Lawyers, they call them feeder.
They have offices in Nigeria, inall the 36 States and they have
offices across the region. But of course they have not
mainstreamed the human rights ofpeople who are achieved.
(04:39):
So we are trying this year to get them to understand that the
human rights of women and children who are accused of
witchcraft should be part of theactivities.
They should mainstream that. So what the same thing we are
doing with our national human rights institutions, because
every country has a national human rights institution is
(05:02):
managed by the states, even though they claim to be
independent. But too often they don't, you
know, focus on these areas. So what we're trying to do is to
draw the attention to it, let them understand that it is
something very important. In fact, some of them are
promoting what they call SGV, sexual and gender based
(05:24):
violence, and they make a lot ofnoise about SGV, focusing maybe
on rape and domestic violence. But they have forgotten that
witch hunting is also a form of domestic violence because it's
perpetrated within the home. It has a gender dimension
because women are often the one who are targeted, who are
beaten. But over the years, for some
(05:46):
reasons, of course, because manyof them believe or suspect that
the accused, you know what they are accused of, so they do not
focus in this area. So one of the things we are
doing is to get them to mainstream the rights of accused
persons because that helps us, that helps us in our work,
(06:08):
because we are not going to do this alone.
We need other institutions, the police, the human rights
institutions, the CSO's. We also want to get them on our
side. So that will be very easy for us
to intervene because sometimes we want to intervene.
We're always looking for a partner organization on ground.
We're all looking for a civil society organization on ground
(06:29):
that will help us intervene, support the accused.
But when they are not sensitizedenough, when they have not
bought into the fact that the rights of alleged witches are
human rights is always difficultto bring them on board and get
them to support, you know that his people.
So this is our priority in addition to our normal everyday
(06:52):
activity like speaking out and trying to educate the people,
trying to let them understand that witchcraft believes.
Yes, they're widely held, but they are false.
Because in my own part of the world, the thing that if you
have hold a belief, if you have held a belief for a very long
time, it means that it is true. Or if so many people hold a
(07:15):
belief, it means that it is truebecause sometimes they'll
mistake, you know, that that majority, oh, we are the
majority. They think that is true.
Yeah. But we know that that is not the
case. So we also try to educate the
people, reorient them because that is how we can weaken the
grip of this belief in their minds.
(07:38):
These are our priorities this year, and we hope that is going
to help us reinforce our effortsto stamp out witch hunts.
Do you want to share any experiences that the victims are
having? Yeah, we have a couple of them.
And let me just tell you the onethat just last week, in fact, by
(08:00):
this time last week, I mean I was in on those states in
Southwest Nigeria meeting with the state chapter of the
National Human Rights Commission.
No, just to further what I've just said.
And one woman who listened to a radio program I did came around
and told us how she was accused when she was a child, about 7
(08:24):
years old. And according to her, a family
relative said that she was in a dream and saw them in the
Covent. I saw her and the sister in the
Covent and now came back and informed their parents.
So she said that in the night, instead of allowing them to
sleep, they will tell them to kneel down.
You know, instead of going to bed, they were told to kneel
(08:46):
down and after sometime they would doze off and the parents
would doze off. When the parents wake up in the
night, did that beat them again to wake up that they should come
back from the common? Because for the parents sleeping
means going to the common. That was how the parents
interpreted it. So they were beaten at night,
denied their sleep by their parents.
And she said that even when she went to school, so they told
(09:09):
them there that she was a witch and nobody other students
couldn't sit with her because inschools they have benches, they
don't sit in single seats so youhave to sit about 3 or 4 people
on a bench. But because of the accusation
nobody could sit with her and and they were taunting her, made
her life miserable for her to throw out.
And she told me that even when she wanted to get married, that
(09:33):
a man came around and when they travelled to meet the parents,
one of them identified her as a witch.
And that was end of that forced at the first time she wanted to
marry. She shared the story.
But of course there were still people in the audience who were
saying that, yeah, that there was still something like
(09:54):
witchcraft experience. And another woman was said that
well, even though that she felt pity of, you know, first sorry
for the ladies experience that on her own side that she was on
a wheelchair for for about four years, 3-4 years.
And according to her, it was as a result of witchcraft from the
(10:14):
village. That's what she said at the
meeting. And I quickly raised my hand.
I told her that the Pope was on a wheelchair that the Pope see
goes around on a wheelchair. And some people chuckled.
So because for her, some people were responsible for her being
on a wheelchair. And I told her it's a medical
issue and it has to be somethingthat they would fix there
(10:37):
because she said after some timeshe stopped moving around on a
wheelchair. According to her, the witchcraft
had gone back to the people who were responsible because she
said that some of those people, some of them were bedridden,
some of them were sick, and things like that.
So you can imagine on one side somebody is sharing experience
(10:59):
of the maltreatment and abuse, and another side somebody is
sharing experience to also legitimize the accusations and
all that. And this is actually typical of
many of our meetings. So as we are having, on one
hand, people sharing experiencesof the torture, maltreatment and
violations they suffered or weresubjected to, there were people
(11:20):
on the other end who will be telling you, no, I went through
this and we have this, you know,somebody bewitched me.
So what we do on that on such occasion is of course counseling
and let people understand that there are explaining a real
problem with a false belief or afalse narrative.
(11:40):
So it's always hard. It's always hard.
But we just, it is that part. It is that hard job we need to
do. Otherwise.
There was what this morning I had a radio program and one of
the people that anchored the program was saying that
witchcraft believe has led to a kind of desensitization.
People don't have feelings for the accused because of the
(12:03):
belief. So we are trying to resensitize
people and let them understand that they have gotten
desensitized as a result of mistaking false belief.
Yes, and that is the hard job. And if we don't, this is a hard
job that must be done. Otherwise, we are not going to
make a lot of progress in terms of protecting the accused,
(12:26):
defending the accused and ensuring that the accused are
not subjected to any further harm.
So this is something is an ongoing work because of course a
lot of people will not be convinced, especially when they
have already made-up their mind or they have seen a connection
between their getting ill and recovery with their supposed
(12:49):
idea of witchcraft or handful magic being perpetrated by
people. That really highlights so many,
so much of what is going on, thedifferent aspects of why people
make accusations in the 1st place and also the lived
(13:11):
experience of somebody who's been accused.
It was such a must have been such a powerful story when she
told it. So moving.
It shows how those accusations stay with you for life because
she's not allowed to marry because of it.
You know what happened in her childhood.
Yeah, yeah, actually she eventually got married, but the
(13:34):
first attempt failed. And she also told us that that
they will be beating them and and they're trying to compel
them to confess, say who took them to the meeting.
And that she now also told us that they sometimes they had to
lie. They had to lie initially they
accused, they said that it was their auntie, you know, that
(13:55):
took them to the meeting. So when they went and invited,
the woman denied. And now then I said it was a
grandmother. So you can see it, this lady, a
woman, the auntie, a woman, the grandmother, also a woman.
You see how first of all he's a lie.
This studio were forced to say these things but she said it
because they will be beating them so much and for them to
(14:17):
really get them to stop beating,they had to tell them a lie.
She was like telling us that they were forcing them to lie
and lie. Not just only is it tell lies
about what they are doing, also tell lies against other people,
implicate other people, relatives and all that.
So you can see how the whole thing goes from 11 state to
another continue to spread. So she was angry not only that
(14:39):
she was accused, but that she was also forced to implicate
innocent people and all that. So she had this kind of feeling
of guilt and all that, which I think is part of the thing that
has complicated her trauma because she said in a family
where they touch on her not justonly to tell lies but also lie
against other people. Yeah, we're really starting to
(15:02):
identify how much coercion is a part of witchcraft accusations.
Thank you so much for what you shared today.
I wanted before you go, can you tell us a little bit about how
you support the victims and how listeners can make donations to
(15:25):
your work? What we do is that the support
is on case by case basis. So immediately we get any
particular like the one we got last week we are discussing
with, we think that first of all, she needs some
psychotherapy or some kind of a psychosocial support in terms of
she needs an environment that allows her to speak.
(15:46):
Because she told us that she hadnever told the story.
She had been looking for an opportunity where she could
really point out and tell the people what's been going on and
all that. And in fact, when she was
narrating the story that was last week, she broke down twice.
She broke down twice and she wastelling the people that they
should not be taking this thing for granted because very often
(16:08):
when that discussing witchcraft,occasionally you see people
laugh and chuckle. So she made it clear that this
thing is destroying people's life, and it's not something
that they would take for grantedor think that it was a joke or
something light. So what we try to do is that we
what in this case now, we're trying to find maybe a counselor
or psychotherapist or somebody who could visit to provide us
(16:31):
some support. And we also have situations
where when people are banished, we try to get them alternative
apartment or accommodation, thengive them some money to start a
business. If they have their cases in
court. Sometimes we send a lawyer,
yeah, so it is on case by case basis.
So the lawyer could go there, monitor and report to us.
(16:52):
You don't want the case reportedto the police, the same thing.
So this is how we try to intervene.
But the only thing we do is thatwe want to make sure we are
there for them because what happens is that when you are
accused, your parents will desert you.
They even if they will be physically there, they will not
be emotionally there. Yeah, that's a problem.
But there you are. You know that they are not
(17:14):
emotionally there. They're physically present, but
so much emotionally absent and in fact, emotionally hostile
towards you. So that is what we are trying to
do. And also I'll also have to
mention that we also had a case recently in a neighboring state.
It was an elderly woman and thatshe, we think that she had
(17:34):
dementia because she was, she left her home and started
loitering, but she couldn't findher way back to her residence.
And incidentally, she walks intoa church, which is often where
people go normally and all that,especially in communities.
But there's a prophetess. The person in charge of the
(17:55):
church is a woman and they call her prophetess.
So when she when the prophetess saw her, she started making all
sorts of allegations, the calling administrations, the
calling prophecies and things like that.
So she they accused her that shewas like a bird that crash
landed in the church and a witch.
So they started beating her and she was pleading with them.
(18:17):
The one thing painful about the video was that you could see her
pleading. I said please, please, please.
They were hitting her with Stoner with stick and eventually
I think by the police came. The woman was pronounced dead at
the hospital. So we the case is with the
police now and the prophetess has been arrested.
So we have also met the some of I have met one of the family
(18:38):
members. So what we do is that we keep
track on them and try to see whatever support like in this
case, the police also charge them money for for intervening.
So what we promised them that wewill refund them that money that
the police collected from them. So just to provide them a little
bit of relief, just for them to know that there are some people
(19:00):
in the society who stand with them.
Because what happens is that when this thing happened, a lot
of people abandoned you to your faith.
So that's what we do on case by case basis.
But we also tell listeners that they could also reach out to us
through our sister organizations.
Donations can always come through our sister
organizations, or they could go to our web page and contact us
(19:22):
directly because we always need to be in the position to respond
and provide basic support. It could be financial, it could
even be physical presence, beingthere, visiting them and all
that so that they have this sense that there are people who
support them. That's what we want to do.
And we hope that if we get to the point where it will not be
(19:43):
done, everybody becomes an advocate, will not Leo or a few
people travelling long distances, but people in the
neighborhood could actually be there to do it for them.
So this is exactly the process we want to trigger.
And that's how they support the senders will help us fulfill our
goal and mission. Awesome, and what's the name of
your Critical Thinking foundation?
(20:04):
Yeah, it's a critical thinking social empowerment foundation.
Yeah, it's on the website. We have a website there and
there people can send us some donation and it should get to us
and help us in what we are doing.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to have those links in the show description,
(20:25):
but thank you so much for joining us and sharing your
insights today. It's very important to get this
message out there. That is my pleasure and also
thank you for all that you do and and like you noted when you
did your oral presentation to the Maryland General Assembly,
(20:47):
what you do there, like I said is sends very positive signal
here because to exonerate victims of accusation 300 years
ago is to send a message of hopeto the victims of accusation
today. Yes, so because injustice is
injustice, no matter how old, itdoesn't matter whether it
(21:08):
happened 300 years or 350 years ago.
No, it is still injustice. And it also doesn't matter
whether it happened to a black person or white person, American
or African, it is injustice. And this is where the whole
thing connects, you know? So that is why I'm also saying
thank you to you, Josh and Sarahand supporters for all that we
(21:28):
are doing to give us a sense of global justice.
So injustice to one is injusticeto all.
So injustice to one accused, whether 300 hundred years ago
yesterday, is injustice to all. And the quest for justice for
one is also the quest for justice for all.
So I want to thank you for helping us make these
(21:48):
connections. And I hope that at the end of
the day, those concerned will listen to us and that justice
would be done. Yeah.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
It's a pleasure. Thank you again to Doctor Leo
Egwe for gracing our show and telling such powerful stories.
(22:09):
It's really, those are really indicative of a lot of what we
see, not just in Africa, but remember, this happens
everywhere around the world, every continent country,
multiple countries on every continent.
It's widespread and it's not unique, certainly to anyone
(22:31):
place. I've listened to a lot of these
stories, but even hearing Leo today, when you reflect on
what's happening in the community or the family, you can
really put yourself in those shoes when you recognize that
everybody's human. And these are reactions to fear
(22:52):
lines getting crossed and misunderstandings.
But it's, you know, stories likethese are the ones that make us
realize that this can happen anywhere, and it is happening a
lot of places. Yeah.
And talking about witch hunting in such a large continent as
(23:13):
Africa with over a billion people and covering the
geography that it does. Obviously it's a big subject and
there is a whole lot we could talk about here, but there are
some aspects of witchcraft accusations that we really want
to highlight today. You can check out previous
episodes on all of these points that we make today and you'll
(23:37):
enjoy in depth discussions on what's happening.
The first thing that's importantfor you to know is that dementia
is the cause of many witchcraft accusations that result in years
of torture. These accusations are linked to
misunderstandings of conditions like dementia, where unusual
(23:59):
behavior is interpreted as witchcraft.
Because of this problem of people misunderstanding,
dementia advocates are attempting to protect those who
are accused of witchcraft in Namibia and they themselves.
The advocates have faced threatsof violence for trying to defend
these people. The charity in Namibia that is
(24:23):
working to educate the communityand protect these families who
are experiencing dementia and witchcraft accusations is called
Alzheimer's Dementia Namibia andthey work with the courts and
victims communities, educationalinstitutions and healthcare
providers to advocate for the persons living with dementia.
(24:45):
Another condition that's commonly associated with
witchcraft, and improperly of course, is albinism.
Albinism is a genetic condition resulting in the lack of
melanin, which is the substance that gives skin and hair its
pigmentation. And albinism occurs in every
(25:08):
country in the world. It happens to members of every
race, every ethnicity, just something that you're born with.
Persons with albinism are often believed to have magical powers,
and we're going to tell you why that's a big problem.
Yeah, in in some areas persons with albinism are not even
(25:32):
believed to be fully human. Unfortunately, their body parts
are used to prepare magical medicines or charms, often in
the belief that the users of these parts will prosper
financially. Yes, and persons with albinism
face some health battles, including skin cancer and vision
(25:56):
impairments. A dangerous myth persists that
sexual contact with virgin persons with albinism can cure
HIV or AIDS, and this leads to sexual violence against girls
and young women and it results in pregnancies and it disrupts
the education opportunities of these young girls.
(26:19):
Yes, and two of the organizations that we mentioned
at the top of the episode, Sierra Leone Association for
Persons with Albinism and the Source of Denial, Union of
Persons with Albinism, they support persons with albinism.
They're really formed strong communities that help each other
out when people have different needs, including things like
(26:43):
needing sun protective clothing and sunscreen, which are very
important. Hats, long sleeves, long pants,
very important because the skin lacking the melanin can't resist
the UV rays. So it's very important to have
(27:03):
those things and these organizations provide that.
They work out arrangements to get those donated, and then they
distribute. And they also are tireless
advocates in government and other institutions for the
rights of persons with albinism.To learn more about efforts to
(27:25):
support persons with albinism, listen to our interviews with
the two people who have served as the United Nations
Independent experts on the enjoyment of human rights by
persons with albinism. We spoke with Ipanwoza Arrow
last year in the beginning part of the year and then towards the
(27:47):
end of the year we had a conversation with her successor
Luluca and Mitty Drummond, who'sthe current mandate holder, the
current independent expert on the enjoyment of human rights of
persons with albinism. We want to talk about something
you may have heard about and just clarify some
misconceptions. There's something that the media
(28:10):
often refers to as witch camps, and these are refugee
communities in Ghana, often where accused witches, women,
innocent women have to flee their lives and they live away
from their communities. They've been driven out of their
homes and from their families. Addressing them as witch camps
(28:33):
really dismisses the vulnerability and the pain and
the the actual situation that are happening to hundreds and
thousands of women in these refugee camps.
Yes, because they're women, not witches.
So it's absolutely a misnomer tosay witch camp.
(28:57):
It's a refugee Center for women who are fleeing.
Like you said, they're fleeing violence and accusations that
will, at the bare minimum, leavethem with a stigma through their
life that they'll be forever blamed for misfortunes in the
community. So they seek out these refuge
(29:18):
centers. And that's what these really
are. They're not which camps Camp
makes it sound like it's a summer camp, like it's a fun
place to go. It's not.
Individuals often live in squalid conditions with very
limited resources. They're often taking care of
their children or grandchildren and in these communities, and
(29:42):
the women who are living in these communities really face a
wide range of challenges. And that's where the two
organizations that we mentioned in Ghana at the top of the
episode come in. The Total Life Enhancement
Center offers mental health clinics to the refugees in these
(30:06):
refugee centers to the women. They do provide counseling and
other supports for mental health, which is obviously a big
challenge when you've been so traumatized.
One of the. Things I want to point out about
these advocacies and charities, often they are the only
organization in the area offering supports.
(30:31):
So resources to them are really critical because if they aren't
offering supports, there may be nothing available to some
victims. The SANA.
Institute advocates for people accused of witchcraft to be able
to return to their communities, to their homes where often
they've lived their entire lives.
(30:52):
Their whole family is, all theirfriends and relations are that
they've been driven away from and they hope to get them back
to the communities. But this, as we said, the stigma
remains with the women and they may be branded as witches again
if they go back. So it's really a sticky
(31:12):
situation on what to do. There's efforts, legislation
that passed the Parliament but has not been signed by the
president to eliminate the so-called witch camps, the
refugee centers. There have to be provisions made
to take care of these women and the children living with them.
(31:35):
Anybody who's been sent to theserefugee centers?
Next, we'd like to talk. About traditional healers, which
for since colonization have beenoften known by the English term
witch doctors. These often are the only medical
practitioners who are available to communities, maybe for many,
(32:00):
many miles around. These are the people.
They're mostly providing herbal medicines.
But in many areas, traditional healers go through extensive
trainings. They are trained on how to use
modern medicines as well as traditional medicines.
There might not be another clinic or doctor or nurse
(32:23):
available in any distance that people can reasonably travel to
SO. Healers are.
Relied upon in many countries asbeing a tier of essentially of
the medical system that's in place so they're like another
(32:43):
option like going to urgent careor something.
Traditional healers are seen as authorities, their views are
respected and what they say is listen to.
Unfortunately, some traditional healers continue to use their
(33:05):
skills of divination, other practices and rights to actually
identify people who they say areresponsible for acts of
witchcraft. Often it's not a direct, you
know, it was Judy Smith who did it kind of accusation.
(33:26):
It's more of AI see a neighbor of yours who's tall and grey
headed and out to get you. That and out to get.
You obviously, and you just knowfrom your experience who that
is. The traditional healer often
finds out from talking to you and know, living in the
community, knowing the gossip, who could be blamed?
(33:49):
Who have you had arguments with in the past that you're
naturally going to blame? That's the person I'm going to
blame too, because then you as the client think, aha, I knew
it. That guy's been out to get me
for a long time. So, you know, it's that double
edged sword thing you we need traditional healers, but we hope
(34:13):
that all traditional healers as in South Africa, there's
actually, there is an oath that they take or a code of conduct
that they sign off that traditional healers have to sign
off on, which says that they will not identify people as
witches. But, you know, in addition to
(34:37):
people who get labeled as healers, there's also a wide
range of magical practitioners in communities, diviners, seers,
fortune tellers who also providethese services.
Now we're going to talk. About the children.
Children are a very vulnerable category of witchcraft
(35:01):
accusation victim and there is areally important organization
that has worked in multiple African countries called Stop
Child Witch Accusations. It's a coalition of individuals
and agencies and they see the reality of what children are
experiencing as serious harm andto their development as humans.
(35:26):
And they really go in and work in communities to help bring a
value to the child and to enhance protections for
children. Unfortunately, parents accuse
children, as you heard Leo say, and often accused children are
(35:48):
kicked out of their homes. There's 10s of thousands, if not
more of children growing up unhoused and completely
destitute and stepchild. Which accusations works in
communities to advocate for these children through the
community's leaders and to buildan intolerance for this type of
(36:08):
behavior and to again elevate the value of the children and
their humanity. Bring the humanity back.
Yes, so please. Check out our episode we did
with Carolyn Gent of Subchild Witch Accusations.
That organization is currently supporting projects in the DRC
(36:31):
and Togo where church leaders and theologians are researching
child witchcraft accusations andeffective responses.
And I'd like to talk about the laws that are on the books or
not on the books. Legislation does exist in many
countries against witchcraft accusations, but also against
witchcraft itself. So these laws exist where?
(36:58):
Part of it is. Still.
Doing what needs to. Be done, which is banning
accusations of witchcraft. But part of it is saying that
witchcraft is real, which reinforces the idea in people's
minds that witchcraft is real. Because you have this law saying
that you can't do witchcraft, which means that people must be
(37:21):
able to do witchcraft. So there's that whole
complication. And these laws go back to
colonial era, so many of them need revisiting anyways.
They're hundred or more years old and they aren't universally
enforced. So right now, we talked about in
Ghana where there the advocates there are pushing for a law
(37:45):
against witchcraft accusations, but that law might also push
women out of the refugee centerscalled witch camps.
So there's a conflict. You can see how complicated it
is to get a law. And then as we talked about in
last episode, when we talked to Boris Gershman, he emphasized
(38:08):
for us that laws alone will not make change.
You need holistic change. But part of that holistic change
is the law and enforcement of the law.
So in many nations, these advocates we've been telling you
about are really pushing to get laws enforced.
(38:28):
Dr. Ingue talked about some of the supports that they give to
victims and one of those is to go to court and or go to the
police station and get the police to intervene.
So laws are. Very important, but they're not
the be all end all solution to the problem.
(38:53):
In yesterday's. Episode we talked to you about
the UN resolution that was passed in 2021.
Well, in response to that, the Pan African Parliament, so the
legislative body of the African Union, has issued guidelines to
member nations on developing national action plans towards
(39:14):
eliminating harmful practices and other human rights
violations associated with witchcraft accusations and the
advocacy against witch hunts. The South African organization
that we mentioned at the beginning of the episode did
contribute to this plan with cultural and legal insights and
(39:36):
data. And.
In Witch Hunts is here to amplify messages from all of
these advocacy organizations andalso to create a repository of
information about witch hunts. You can help out by volunteering
or donating to these projects. Tomorrow is.
(39:57):
Still podcast on, so we're goingto tell you.
About sorcery accusation relatedviolence in Papua New Guinea and
there's a lot to learn about this under addressed issue in
this island nation. Thank you so much.
Again for joining us for podcaston 2025.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow and we'll see
(40:21):
you then.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. She's Sarah Jack and This is
Witch Hunt Podcast. Welcome back to our podcast THON
series Ending Witch Hunts. Today we pick up the full story
of witch hunting by discussing contemporary witch hunts across
the globe, and we're focusing onAfrica in this one.
Podcast Thon is a global movement to spread the word
(00:23):
about charities by podcasts all over the world.
Today from us, you'll hear aboutcharities that have been
featured on our podcast and previous expert interviews.
Yeah, we talked, of course, about our own charity in witch
hunts. Today you're going to hear from
(00:44):
Advocate Leo Ikwe from Advocacy for Alleged Witches.
We've also talked about the Sierra Leone Association for
Persons with Albinism. One of our very first advocacy
episodes was from Advocacy Against Witch Hunts in South
Africa. We'll also talk about stop child
(01:07):
witch accusations. And in Ghana, Total Life
Enhancement Center and the Senate Institute.
Again, we'll talk about humanistMalawi.
And Alzheimer's dementia. Namibia.
And from an upcoming episode, the source of the Nile Union,
(01:28):
persons with albinism, please support these organizations.
We'll have more information on them later in the podcast and
we'll have the links in the shownotes.
And then after today, you still get four more podcasts on
episodes. I'm so excited to keep doing
this. It's been very enjoyable making
(01:49):
these. Yeah.
Earlier this week, we were in preparation for podcasts on we
connected with human rights advocate Doctor Leo Egue from
Advocacy for Alleged Witches in Nigeria.
Leo's been our guest on two episodes in the past, so be sure
to check those out later as well.
(02:10):
Leo Egue, thank you so much for coming on to Witch Hunt Podcast
today and giving us an update. But first, I want to thank you
for all of your hard work every day and for the education that
you've given us and for coming to Witch Hunt to tell us what's
going on. Yeah, It's my pleasure, Sarah.
(02:31):
It's my pleasure, Josh. And thank you also for the work
you're doing, you know, out there.
Thank you. Thanks.
What priorities is advocacy for alleged witches focused on in
2025? We have the following
priorities. First of all is to always be
(02:53):
there for the accused. Yes, we want to be sure that
anytime we got to know that anybody is accused anyway within
Nigeria or beyond, we will say something, we will respond, we
will react because that ties into our mission in terms of
(03:14):
trying to recalibrate the way accusations of witchcraft, they
are managed. Because often when people are
accused, it fizzes out and the person is either killed or the
person is punished or the personis thrown into jail and nobody
hears about it. So we, it's still our priority
to be there and be able to intervene as soon as we get to
(03:36):
know that somebody is accused orsomebody is prosecuted.
Or as we have seen in Zambia, some people were charged to
court because they wanted to, they, they were accused of, they
were attempting to kill the president, you know, using
witchcraft. And very often it is still the
news of the accusers. Now what dominates the media.
(03:57):
So we will not have to challengethe accusers, try to highlight
the gaps either in their claims or the baseless nature of the
allegations that bring in, yes, provide the council narrative
that still remains our priority in 2025.
Another thing we need to we're also doing is begin to let
(04:17):
organizations or institutions that either promote human
rights, the rights of women and children, like the International
Federation of Women Lawyers, they call them feeder.
They have offices in Nigeria, inall the 36 States and they have
offices across the region. But of course they have not
mainstreamed the human rights ofpeople who are achieved.
(04:39):
So we are trying this year to get them to understand that the
human rights of women and children who are accused of
witchcraft should be part of theactivities.
They should mainstream that. So what the same thing we are
doing with our national human rights institutions, because
every country has a national human rights institution is
(05:02):
managed by the states, even though they claim to be
independent. But too often they don't, you
know, focus on these areas. So what we're trying to do is to
draw the attention to it, let them understand that it is
something very important. In fact, some of them are
promoting what they call SGV, sexual and gender based
(05:24):
violence, and they make a lot ofnoise about SGV, focusing maybe
on rape and domestic violence. But they have forgotten that
witch hunting is also a form of domestic violence because it's
perpetrated within the home. It has a gender dimension
because women are often the one who are targeted, who are
beaten. But over the years, for some
(05:46):
reasons, of course, because manyof them believe or suspect that
the accused, you know what they are accused of, so they do not
focus in this area. So one of the things we are
doing is to get them to mainstream the rights of accused
persons because that helps us, that helps us in our work,
(06:08):
because we are not going to do this alone.
We need other institutions, the police, the human rights
institutions, the CSO's. We also want to get them on our
side. So that will be very easy for us
to intervene because sometimes we want to intervene.
We're always looking for a partner organization on ground.
We're all looking for a civil society organization on ground
(06:29):
that will help us intervene, support the accused.
But when they are not sensitizedenough, when they have not
bought into the fact that the rights of alleged witches are
human rights is always difficultto bring them on board and get
them to support, you know that his people.
So this is our priority in addition to our normal everyday
(06:52):
activity like speaking out and trying to educate the people,
trying to let them understand that witchcraft believes.
Yes, they're widely held, but they are false.
Because in my own part of the world, the thing that if you
have hold a belief, if you have held a belief for a very long
time, it means that it is true. Or if so many people hold a
(07:15):
belief, it means that it is truebecause sometimes they'll
mistake, you know, that that majority, oh, we are the
majority. They think that is true.
Yeah. But we know that that is not the
case. So we also try to educate the
people, reorient them because that is how we can weaken the
grip of this belief in their minds.
(07:38):
These are our priorities this year, and we hope that is going
to help us reinforce our effortsto stamp out witch hunts.
Do you want to share any experiences that the victims are
having? Yeah, we have a couple of them.
And let me just tell you the onethat just last week, in fact, by
(08:00):
this time last week, I mean I was in on those states in
Southwest Nigeria meeting with the state chapter of the
National Human Rights Commission.
No, just to further what I've just said.
And one woman who listened to a radio program I did came around
and told us how she was accused when she was a child, about 7
(08:24):
years old. And according to her, a family
relative said that she was in a dream and saw them in the
Covent. I saw her and the sister in the
Covent and now came back and informed their parents.
So she said that in the night, instead of allowing them to
sleep, they will tell them to kneel down.
You know, instead of going to bed, they were told to kneel
(08:46):
down and after sometime they would doze off and the parents
would doze off. When the parents wake up in the
night, did that beat them again to wake up that they should come
back from the common? Because for the parents sleeping
means going to the common. That was how the parents
interpreted it. So they were beaten at night,
denied their sleep by their parents.
And she said that even when she went to school, so they told
(09:09):
them there that she was a witch and nobody other students
couldn't sit with her because inschools they have benches, they
don't sit in single seats so youhave to sit about 3 or 4 people
on a bench. But because of the accusation
nobody could sit with her and and they were taunting her, made
her life miserable for her to throw out.
And she told me that even when she wanted to get married, that
(09:33):
a man came around and when they travelled to meet the parents,
one of them identified her as a witch.
And that was end of that forced at the first time she wanted to
marry. She shared the story.
But of course there were still people in the audience who were
saying that, yeah, that there was still something like
(09:54):
witchcraft experience. And another woman was said that
well, even though that she felt pity of, you know, first sorry
for the ladies experience that on her own side that she was on
a wheelchair for for about four years, 3-4 years.
And according to her, it was as a result of witchcraft from the
(10:14):
village. That's what she said at the
meeting. And I quickly raised my hand.
I told her that the Pope was on a wheelchair that the Pope see
goes around on a wheelchair. And some people chuckled.
So because for her, some people were responsible for her being
on a wheelchair. And I told her it's a medical
issue and it has to be somethingthat they would fix there
(10:37):
because she said after some timeshe stopped moving around on a
wheelchair. According to her, the witchcraft
had gone back to the people who were responsible because she
said that some of those people, some of them were bedridden,
some of them were sick, and things like that.
So you can imagine on one side somebody is sharing experience
(10:59):
of the maltreatment and abuse, and another side somebody is
sharing experience to also legitimize the accusations and
all that. And this is actually typical of
many of our meetings. So as we are having, on one
hand, people sharing experiencesof the torture, maltreatment and
violations they suffered or weresubjected to, there were people
(11:20):
on the other end who will be telling you, no, I went through
this and we have this, you know,somebody bewitched me.
So what we do on that on such occasion is of course counseling
and let people understand that there are explaining a real
problem with a false belief or afalse narrative.
(11:40):
So it's always hard. It's always hard.
But we just, it is that part. It is that hard job we need to
do. Otherwise.
There was what this morning I had a radio program and one of
the people that anchored the program was saying that
witchcraft believe has led to a kind of desensitization.
People don't have feelings for the accused because of the
(12:03):
belief. So we are trying to resensitize
people and let them understand that they have gotten
desensitized as a result of mistaking false belief.
Yes, and that is the hard job. And if we don't, this is a hard
job that must be done. Otherwise, we are not going to
make a lot of progress in terms of protecting the accused,
(12:26):
defending the accused and ensuring that the accused are
not subjected to any further harm.
So this is something is an ongoing work because of course a
lot of people will not be convinced, especially when they
have already made-up their mind or they have seen a connection
between their getting ill and recovery with their supposed
(12:49):
idea of witchcraft or handful magic being perpetrated by
people. That really highlights so many,
so much of what is going on, thedifferent aspects of why people
make accusations in the 1st place and also the lived
(13:11):
experience of somebody who's been accused.
It was such a must have been such a powerful story when she
told it. So moving.
It shows how those accusations stay with you for life because
she's not allowed to marry because of it.
You know what happened in her childhood.
Yeah, yeah, actually she eventually got married, but the
(13:34):
first attempt failed. And she also told us that that
they will be beating them and and they're trying to compel
them to confess, say who took them to the meeting.
And that she now also told us that they sometimes they had to
lie. They had to lie initially they
accused, they said that it was their auntie, you know, that
(13:55):
took them to the meeting. So when they went and invited,
the woman denied. And now then I said it was a
grandmother. So you can see it, this lady, a
woman, the auntie, a woman, the grandmother, also a woman.
You see how first of all he's a lie.
This studio were forced to say these things but she said it
because they will be beating them so much and for them to
(14:17):
really get them to stop beating,they had to tell them a lie.
She was like telling us that they were forcing them to lie
and lie. Not just only is it tell lies
about what they are doing, also tell lies against other people,
implicate other people, relatives and all that.
So you can see how the whole thing goes from 11 state to
another continue to spread. So she was angry not only that
(14:39):
she was accused, but that she was also forced to implicate
innocent people and all that. So she had this kind of feeling
of guilt and all that, which I think is part of the thing that
has complicated her trauma because she said in a family
where they touch on her not justonly to tell lies but also lie
against other people. Yeah, we're really starting to
(15:02):
identify how much coercion is a part of witchcraft accusations.
Thank you so much for what you shared today.
I wanted before you go, can you tell us a little bit about how
you support the victims and how listeners can make donations to
(15:25):
your work? What we do is that the support
is on case by case basis. So immediately we get any
particular like the one we got last week we are discussing
with, we think that first of all, she needs some
psychotherapy or some kind of a psychosocial support in terms of
she needs an environment that allows her to speak.
(15:46):
Because she told us that she hadnever told the story.
She had been looking for an opportunity where she could
really point out and tell the people what's been going on and
all that. And in fact, when she was
narrating the story that was last week, she broke down twice.
She broke down twice and she wastelling the people that they
should not be taking this thing for granted because very often
(16:08):
when that discussing witchcraft,occasionally you see people
laugh and chuckle. So she made it clear that this
thing is destroying people's life, and it's not something
that they would take for grantedor think that it was a joke or
something light. So what we try to do is that we
what in this case now, we're trying to find maybe a counselor
or psychotherapist or somebody who could visit to provide us
(16:31):
some support. And we also have situations
where when people are banished, we try to get them alternative
apartment or accommodation, thengive them some money to start a
business. If they have their cases in
court. Sometimes we send a lawyer,
yeah, so it is on case by case basis.
So the lawyer could go there, monitor and report to us.
(16:52):
You don't want the case reportedto the police, the same thing.
So this is how we try to intervene.
But the only thing we do is thatwe want to make sure we are
there for them because what happens is that when you are
accused, your parents will desert you.
They even if they will be physically there, they will not
be emotionally there. Yeah, that's a problem.
But there you are. You know that they are not
(17:14):
emotionally there. They're physically present, but
so much emotionally absent and in fact, emotionally hostile
towards you. So that is what we are trying to
do. And also I'll also have to
mention that we also had a case recently in a neighboring state.
It was an elderly woman and thatshe, we think that she had
(17:34):
dementia because she was, she left her home and started
loitering, but she couldn't findher way back to her residence.
And incidentally, she walks intoa church, which is often where
people go normally and all that,especially in communities.
But there's a prophetess. The person in charge of the
(17:55):
church is a woman and they call her prophetess.
So when she when the prophetess saw her, she started making all
sorts of allegations, the calling administrations, the
calling prophecies and things like that.
So she they accused her that shewas like a bird that crash
landed in the church and a witch.
So they started beating her and she was pleading with them.
(18:17):
The one thing painful about the video was that you could see her
pleading. I said please, please, please.
They were hitting her with Stoner with stick and eventually
I think by the police came. The woman was pronounced dead at
the hospital. So we the case is with the
police now and the prophetess has been arrested.
So we have also met the some of I have met one of the family
(18:38):
members. So what we do is that we keep
track on them and try to see whatever support like in this
case, the police also charge them money for for intervening.
So what we promised them that wewill refund them that money that
the police collected from them. So just to provide them a little
bit of relief, just for them to know that there are some people
(19:00):
in the society who stand with them.
Because what happens is that when this thing happened, a lot
of people abandoned you to your faith.
So that's what we do on case by case basis.
But we also tell listeners that they could also reach out to us
through our sister organizations.
Donations can always come through our sister
organizations, or they could go to our web page and contact us
(19:22):
directly because we always need to be in the position to respond
and provide basic support. It could be financial, it could
even be physical presence, beingthere, visiting them and all
that so that they have this sense that there are people who
support them. That's what we want to do.
And we hope that if we get to the point where it will not be
(19:43):
done, everybody becomes an advocate, will not Leo or a few
people travelling long distances, but people in the
neighborhood could actually be there to do it for them.
So this is exactly the process we want to trigger.
And that's how they support the senders will help us fulfill our
goal and mission. Awesome, and what's the name of
your Critical Thinking foundation?
(20:04):
Yeah, it's a critical thinking social empowerment foundation.
Yeah, it's on the website. We have a website there and
there people can send us some donation and it should get to us
and help us in what we are doing.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
We'll be sure to have those links in the show description,
(20:25):
but thank you so much for joining us and sharing your
insights today. It's very important to get this
message out there. That is my pleasure and also
thank you for all that you do and and like you noted when you
did your oral presentation to the Maryland General Assembly,
(20:47):
what you do there, like I said is sends very positive signal
here because to exonerate victims of accusation 300 years
ago is to send a message of hopeto the victims of accusation
today. Yes, so because injustice is
injustice, no matter how old, itdoesn't matter whether it
(21:08):
happened 300 years or 350 years ago.
No, it is still injustice. And it also doesn't matter
whether it happened to a black person or white person, American
or African, it is injustice. And this is where the whole
thing connects, you know? So that is why I'm also saying
thank you to you, Josh and Sarahand supporters for all that we
(21:28):
are doing to give us a sense of global justice.
So injustice to one is injusticeto all.
So injustice to one accused, whether 300 hundred years ago
yesterday, is injustice to all. And the quest for justice for
one is also the quest for justice for all.
So I want to thank you for helping us make these
(21:48):
connections. And I hope that at the end of
the day, those concerned will listen to us and that justice
would be done. Yeah.
Thank you so much. Thank you.
It's a pleasure. Thank you again to Doctor Leo
Egwe for gracing our show and telling such powerful stories.
(22:09):
It's really, those are really indicative of a lot of what we
see, not just in Africa, but remember, this happens
everywhere around the world, every continent country,
multiple countries on every continent.
It's widespread and it's not unique, certainly to anyone
(22:31):
place. I've listened to a lot of these
stories, but even hearing Leo today, when you reflect on
what's happening in the community or the family, you can
really put yourself in those shoes when you recognize that
everybody's human. And these are reactions to fear
(22:52):
lines getting crossed and misunderstandings.
But it's, you know, stories likethese are the ones that make us
realize that this can happen anywhere, and it is happening a
lot of places. Yeah.
And talking about witch hunting in such a large continent as
(23:13):
Africa with over a billion people and covering the
geography that it does. Obviously it's a big subject and
there is a whole lot we could talk about here, but there are
some aspects of witchcraft accusations that we really want
to highlight today. You can check out previous
episodes on all of these points that we make today and you'll
(23:37):
enjoy in depth discussions on what's happening.
The first thing that's importantfor you to know is that dementia
is the cause of many witchcraft accusations that result in years
of torture. These accusations are linked to
misunderstandings of conditions like dementia, where unusual
(23:59):
behavior is interpreted as witchcraft.
Because of this problem of people misunderstanding,
dementia advocates are attempting to protect those who
are accused of witchcraft in Namibia and they themselves.
The advocates have faced threatsof violence for trying to defend
these people. The charity in Namibia that is
(24:23):
working to educate the communityand protect these families who
are experiencing dementia and witchcraft accusations is called
Alzheimer's Dementia Namibia andthey work with the courts and
victims communities, educationalinstitutions and healthcare
providers to advocate for the persons living with dementia.
(24:45):
Another condition that's commonly associated with
witchcraft, and improperly of course, is albinism.
Albinism is a genetic condition resulting in the lack of
melanin, which is the substance that gives skin and hair its
pigmentation. And albinism occurs in every
(25:08):
country in the world. It happens to members of every
race, every ethnicity, just something that you're born with.
Persons with albinism are often believed to have magical powers,
and we're going to tell you why that's a big problem.
Yeah, in in some areas persons with albinism are not even
(25:32):
believed to be fully human. Unfortunately, their body parts
are used to prepare magical medicines or charms, often in
the belief that the users of these parts will prosper
financially. Yes, and persons with albinism
face some health battles, including skin cancer and vision
(25:56):
impairments. A dangerous myth persists that
sexual contact with virgin persons with albinism can cure
HIV or AIDS, and this leads to sexual violence against girls
and young women and it results in pregnancies and it disrupts
the education opportunities of these young girls.
(26:19):
Yes, and two of the organizations that we mentioned
at the top of the episode, Sierra Leone Association for
Persons with Albinism and the Source of Denial, Union of
Persons with Albinism, they support persons with albinism.
They're really formed strong communities that help each other
out when people have different needs, including things like
(26:43):
needing sun protective clothing and sunscreen, which are very
important. Hats, long sleeves, long pants,
very important because the skin lacking the melanin can't resist
the UV rays. So it's very important to have
(27:03):
those things and these organizations provide that.
They work out arrangements to get those donated, and then they
distribute. And they also are tireless
advocates in government and other institutions for the
rights of persons with albinism.To learn more about efforts to
(27:25):
support persons with albinism, listen to our interviews with
the two people who have served as the United Nations
Independent experts on the enjoyment of human rights by
persons with albinism. We spoke with Ipanwoza Arrow
last year in the beginning part of the year and then towards the
(27:47):
end of the year we had a conversation with her successor
Luluca and Mitty Drummond, who'sthe current mandate holder, the
current independent expert on the enjoyment of human rights of
persons with albinism. We want to talk about something
you may have heard about and just clarify some
misconceptions. There's something that the media
(28:10):
often refers to as witch camps, and these are refugee
communities in Ghana, often where accused witches, women,
innocent women have to flee their lives and they live away
from their communities. They've been driven out of their
homes and from their families. Addressing them as witch camps
(28:33):
really dismisses the vulnerability and the pain and
the the actual situation that are happening to hundreds and
thousands of women in these refugee camps.
Yes, because they're women, not witches.
So it's absolutely a misnomer tosay witch camp.
(28:57):
It's a refugee Center for women who are fleeing.
Like you said, they're fleeing violence and accusations that
will, at the bare minimum, leavethem with a stigma through their
life that they'll be forever blamed for misfortunes in the
community. So they seek out these refuge
(29:18):
centers. And that's what these really
are. They're not which camps Camp
makes it sound like it's a summer camp, like it's a fun
place to go. It's not.
Individuals often live in squalid conditions with very
limited resources. They're often taking care of
their children or grandchildren and in these communities, and
(29:42):
the women who are living in these communities really face a
wide range of challenges. And that's where the two
organizations that we mentioned in Ghana at the top of the
episode come in. The Total Life Enhancement
Center offers mental health clinics to the refugees in these
(30:06):
refugee centers to the women. They do provide counseling and
other supports for mental health, which is obviously a big
challenge when you've been so traumatized.
One of the. Things I want to point out about
these advocacies and charities, often they are the only
organization in the area offering supports.
(30:31):
So resources to them are really critical because if they aren't
offering supports, there may be nothing available to some
victims. The SANA.
Institute advocates for people accused of witchcraft to be able
to return to their communities, to their homes where often
they've lived their entire lives.
(30:52):
Their whole family is, all theirfriends and relations are that
they've been driven away from and they hope to get them back
to the communities. But this, as we said, the stigma
remains with the women and they may be branded as witches again
if they go back. So it's really a sticky
(31:12):
situation on what to do. There's efforts, legislation
that passed the Parliament but has not been signed by the
president to eliminate the so-called witch camps, the
refugee centers. There have to be provisions made
to take care of these women and the children living with them.
(31:35):
Anybody who's been sent to theserefugee centers?
Next, we'd like to talk. About traditional healers, which
for since colonization have beenoften known by the English term
witch doctors. These often are the only medical
practitioners who are available to communities, maybe for many,
(32:00):
many miles around. These are the people.
They're mostly providing herbal medicines.
But in many areas, traditional healers go through extensive
trainings. They are trained on how to use
modern medicines as well as traditional medicines.
There might not be another clinic or doctor or nurse
(32:23):
available in any distance that people can reasonably travel to
SO. Healers are.
Relied upon in many countries asbeing a tier of essentially of
the medical system that's in place so they're like another
(32:43):
option like going to urgent careor something.
Traditional healers are seen as authorities, their views are
respected and what they say is listen to.
Unfortunately, some traditional healers continue to use their
(33:05):
skills of divination, other practices and rights to actually
identify people who they say areresponsible for acts of
witchcraft. Often it's not a direct, you
know, it was Judy Smith who did it kind of accusation.
(33:26):
It's more of AI see a neighbor of yours who's tall and grey
headed and out to get you. That and out to get.
You obviously, and you just knowfrom your experience who that
is. The traditional healer often
finds out from talking to you and know, living in the
community, knowing the gossip, who could be blamed?
(33:49):
Who have you had arguments with in the past that you're
naturally going to blame? That's the person I'm going to
blame too, because then you as the client think, aha, I knew
it. That guy's been out to get me
for a long time. So, you know, it's that double
edged sword thing you we need traditional healers, but we hope
(34:13):
that all traditional healers as in South Africa, there's
actually, there is an oath that they take or a code of conduct
that they sign off that traditional healers have to sign
off on, which says that they will not identify people as
witches. But, you know, in addition to
(34:37):
people who get labeled as healers, there's also a wide
range of magical practitioners in communities, diviners, seers,
fortune tellers who also providethese services.
Now we're going to talk. About the children.
Children are a very vulnerable category of witchcraft
(35:01):
accusation victim and there is areally important organization
that has worked in multiple African countries called Stop
Child Witch Accusations. It's a coalition of individuals
and agencies and they see the reality of what children are
experiencing as serious harm andto their development as humans.
(35:26):
And they really go in and work in communities to help bring a
value to the child and to enhance protections for
children. Unfortunately, parents accuse
children, as you heard Leo say, and often accused children are
(35:48):
kicked out of their homes. There's 10s of thousands, if not
more of children growing up unhoused and completely
destitute and stepchild. Which accusations works in
communities to advocate for these children through the
community's leaders and to buildan intolerance for this type of
(36:08):
behavior and to again elevate the value of the children and
their humanity. Bring the humanity back.
Yes, so please. Check out our episode we did
with Carolyn Gent of Subchild Witch Accusations.
That organization is currently supporting projects in the DRC
(36:31):
and Togo where church leaders and theologians are researching
child witchcraft accusations andeffective responses.
And I'd like to talk about the laws that are on the books or
not on the books. Legislation does exist in many
countries against witchcraft accusations, but also against
witchcraft itself. So these laws exist where?
(36:58):
Part of it is. Still.
Doing what needs to. Be done, which is banning
accusations of witchcraft. But part of it is saying that
witchcraft is real, which reinforces the idea in people's
minds that witchcraft is real. Because you have this law saying
that you can't do witchcraft, which means that people must be
(37:21):
able to do witchcraft. So there's that whole
complication. And these laws go back to
colonial era, so many of them need revisiting anyways.
They're hundred or more years old and they aren't universally
enforced. So right now, we talked about in
Ghana where there the advocates there are pushing for a law
(37:45):
against witchcraft accusations, but that law might also push
women out of the refugee centerscalled witch camps.
So there's a conflict. You can see how complicated it
is to get a law. And then as we talked about in
last episode, when we talked to Boris Gershman, he emphasized
(38:08):
for us that laws alone will not make change.
You need holistic change. But part of that holistic change
is the law and enforcement of the law.
So in many nations, these advocates we've been telling you
about are really pushing to get laws enforced.
(38:28):
Dr. Ingue talked about some of the supports that they give to
victims and one of those is to go to court and or go to the
police station and get the police to intervene.
So laws are. Very important, but they're not
the be all end all solution to the problem.
(38:53):
In yesterday's. Episode we talked to you about
the UN resolution that was passed in 2021.
Well, in response to that, the Pan African Parliament, so the
legislative body of the African Union, has issued guidelines to
member nations on developing national action plans towards
(39:14):
eliminating harmful practices and other human rights
violations associated with witchcraft accusations and the
advocacy against witch hunts. The South African organization
that we mentioned at the beginning of the episode did
contribute to this plan with cultural and legal insights and
(39:36):
data. And.
In Witch Hunts is here to amplify messages from all of
these advocacy organizations andalso to create a repository of
information about witch hunts. You can help out by volunteering
or donating to these projects. Tomorrow is.
(39:57):
Still podcast on, so we're goingto tell you.
About sorcery accusation relatedviolence in Papua New Guinea and
there's a lot to learn about this under addressed issue in
this island nation. Thank you so much.
Again for joining us for podcaston 2025.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow and we'll see
(40:21):
you then.
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