July 29, 2025 • 48 mins
In this gripping episode, we sit down with Dr. Keith Silika, a Zimbabwean-born criminal investigator whose extraordinary journey has positioned him at the crossroads of two worlds most of us never see intersect.
Raised between his father's traditional healing practice and devout Catholic faith, Dr. Silika brings an unprecedented perspective to one of today's most misunderstood and dangerous phenomena, ritual attacks. From his early days in Zimbabwe's police force to his current work in England's law enforcement and academic circles, he's witnessed firsthand how supernatural beliefs continue to cause modern-day violence and persecution.
This isn't your typical true crime discussion. It's a deep dive into the complex intersection of culture, belief, justice, and human rights that will inspire you to explore this critical issue further and engage in important conversations about protecting vulnerable communities worldwide.
Warning: This episode contains discussions of violence and harm that some listeners may find disturbing.
The International Network Against Witchcraft Attacks and Ritual Abuse
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to The Thing About WitchHunts, the podcast that explores
the devastating impact of witchcraft accusations and other
harmful practices around the world.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack, our expert
guest, Doctor Keith Silica, is aremarkable criminal investigator
and lecturer whose work bridges the world of criminology,
(00:21):
forensics and human rights advocacy.
Born in Zimbabwe, Dr. Silica grew up around traditional
healing practices through his father, who is both a healer and
a devout Catholic. His career has taken him from
police work in Zimbabwe to law enforcement and academics in
England, giving him a unique blend of highly specialized
(00:42):
expertise and experience. This dynamic discussion of
witchcraft related harmful practices, forensic evidence and
innovative prevention strategiesis unlike any other episode we
have delivered so far. Welcome to the Thing about witch
Hunts podcast. Doctor Keith Silka, I'm so
excited to have you here today. Can you introduce yourself and
(01:04):
tell us about your expertise andwork?
Thank you for having me, both ofyou.
Very delighted to be here. So I've got a very long,
ambiguous and some people call interesting work profiles.
I'll keep it short. I don't know if you can tell
from my accent. I was born in Zimbabwe, so in
Zebong. So I was when I was young.
When I was of 21 I joined the police there with police there
(01:27):
for about 3 years before that. The background to the story is
my dad used to be a healer, healer, witch doctor.
So I grew up around him, see patients coming to the house,
grew up around ritual cleansing ceremonies.
And then I joined the police when I was 21.
And then when I immigrated to England, I joined the police
(01:48):
again, Wake for the police for about 10-12 years.
And at the same time I was doinga PhD.
So I did studies in undergraduate in criminology, a
master's in crimes investigationand PhD in forensic science.
And then I teach on the policingmodules here in Southwood.
(02:09):
Thank you. It's so good to be talking with
you today. We met last year at the
Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference at Lancaster
University. Why is it important for
conferences like that to be happening right now?
It was my first conference with the international network.
I must say that I'm a member of the international network
(02:29):
Guinness Handful practices. So it's actually my first time
presenting a paper on witchcraftand harmful practices in
Zimbabwe and forensic evidence. So those conferences are quite
important in terms of networking, in terms of
research. Like I'm going to be talking
about my research. So the network is going to be
helping me out with my research.And then the network has helped
(02:50):
me out to reach out to people like you.
So it's quite important those conferences because they're
actually, while some of the things that might discuss might
be innocuous to other people, but in my context, there's
actually victims and people thatI embedded to some of the work
that I do. Thank you so much.
Yeah. For us, coming from the
background in the United States,it really helped us to
(03:12):
contextualize the little bit that we understand.
And it was so important to meet you and others.
And we're so glad you're here talking to us about your work.
We would like to know more aboutZimbabwe.
Oh, thank you very much. My research is all about it.
I'm writing a book on witchcraftand harmful practices in the
(03:35):
context of forensics and evidence and a bit of artificial
intelligence. It will come up together at some
point. So So Zimbabwe, any other
colonial country was a colony since the 1800s.
Zimbabwe, Malawi and Zambia usedto be 1 country, pretty much
like Pakistan and India. They used to be 1 country and
they only separated in the 19606162.
(03:58):
So they became three different countries, Malawi, Zimbabwe and
Zambia. So and I appreciate your the
initial confusion as to which country.
Yeah. So I'll be deputy to go.
So both have got the same colonial history and both have
the same cultures, all the different languages in different
contexts. Both have same issues around
(04:19):
witchcraft and harmful practicesaround the same level.
Both have colonial legislation around witchcraft because
obviously when the colonizers came in, they enacted what
called the Witchcraft is suppression of 1914, which
banned the practice and belief of witchcraft.
And when independence came into four in most of those countries,
(04:42):
they were that most of the legislation as we launched the
other day, I played together, they tried to play around with
the Witchcraft Subtraction Act of those countries because there
is new thinking and still old values in old cultures.
So those are the issues that areembedded.
So the issues about education, about legislation and culture
(05:03):
also then affect the ritual killings and the investigation
and the evidence and everything that comes with it.
What should we know about ritualkillings?
In the context of Zimbabwe, ritual killings is whereby an
individual is intentionally madeit for their body parts.
(05:24):
So this happened. I was actually I've set up a
system I use Google or network by I set up a system whether
there's a killing, I get an e-mail or an article or any
background to it. There's actually a ritual
killing yesterday that I just received.
So it's a ritual killing. The harvesting of body parts on
the beneath that a certain body part will give you certain
(05:44):
benefits. The eye or for example, an
albino child yesterday, the incident yesterday.
This conversation is going to get gory, but we are within
context. But yesterday were killing
involved killing of a 14 year old and the harvesting of their
sexual organs. Exam and some ritual killings
will take the liver, sometimes they'll take the ears.
(06:05):
It depends on what's the agenda,what's the framing, what's the
intention of the offender in that context.
So these ritual killings are pretty much pretty much works
around Africa in different contexts because of language and
culture and location. Certain nuances in terms of the
killing change because they are not uniform, because obviously
(06:28):
we don't have somebody which I'mhopefully trying to produce, OK,
These types of ritual killings are result, this type of vendor,
deep type of contact and deep type of investigation.
The numbers are clearly difficult to ascertain because
certain ritual murder are harmful practices can be
disguised as something else. It could be a domestic violence
(06:51):
or it could be diversity violence that go out the way.
So those cases are very difficult for us to capture in
terms of data. So that's one of the difficult
panadols when trying to encapsulate information around
which are the types of killings.So we have to be very rookie to
cases and just see, OK, there's this element, this element.
So that's in essence the ritual killer and harmful killings
(07:14):
within this context. Thank you.
That's really, that's such a great way to explain it.
Thank you so much. Witchcraft beliefs Dr. This.
What are those and how does it create the conditions for these
attacks? Oh yeah.
So for several reasons, I'm always coming up with theories
(07:34):
and things in my head when I'm looking at what do they come
about? And I call it like the burden of
the African mind whereby if somebody in Africa wants to make
a decision about getting married, getting a job, doing
everyday activities, they have to consider the rituals, the
cultures. And sometimes most people belong
(07:55):
to multiple kind of practices. For example, my father was a
Heela, but he also was Catholic.He never need mass most of his
life. So those are the kind of
elements are there. So what causes this, I think for
me #1 is socio economic circumstances because most of
those areas, and as you will seein future when we bring me back
(08:18):
when I'm talking about the book and there's profiling in terms
of the victims and offenders. So for me #1 is poverty.
Most of these areas, those countries have got low GDP, low
unemployment, lack of resources,ETC.
And there's a result of that. The children don't go to school.
For example, Zimbabwe was dead, the highest number of childbirth
(08:38):
of children, 18, but quite a long time.
And there's a report by the United Nations with that fact.
So there's poverty, the lack of education, lack of resources and
social jealousy because of the way in the age where people can
see images of things and things like, OK, in order for me to get
that the novel ideas of people finding a job have been taken
(09:01):
away by social economic circumstances and mis education
is, well, is quite important because I'm one of the people
who grew up around it. And I believed it because I've
been told by my people, by my peers and by my elders and by my
father, and also peer pressure within communities, OK, you've
got this element. Don't go to the local hospital,
(09:23):
go and see this witch doctor, goand see this profit, ETC.
And also another issue that perpetuates this practice is the
lack of medical facilities. That's why people go and see
here as a witch doctors because they don't have access to proper
medical passages. So that's in essence an
overview, one of some of the reasons that causes some of
(09:44):
these. How are the victims selected for
ritual killings? Why are certain people targeted?
You know the problem which you explain that can I introduce
criminological theory called theroutine activities theory is
called RAT. In order for an offence to OK,
there has to be a suitable victim, a suitable target and
(10:06):
the lack of a capable guardian. Basically if there's dope, if
there's a opportunity for an offense or care and there's no
guardian either in the frame of police or local government
infrastructure or knowledge, their chances of those type of
offenses tend to occur. In terms of victim selection,
it's quite based on reports and what I've seen so far.
(10:27):
The primary at the moment, what seems to be I think in the last
10 years, what seemed to be the victims actually murdered are
mostly young boys and young girls aged anything between the
ages of 3 and 14. That seems to be the age in
which those individuals are. The ones that actually murdered
(10:47):
are mostly, I would say, I wouldsay maybe 60% female, 40% male
between those ages. And the vendor is normally 100%
male. Within this context.
It's normally a male is between 20 and 50.
Yeah, that's the person who doesactually the actual killing.
(11:09):
But there's the third and fourthmatch that comes into play in
the form of normally the person who does the killing.
This is something I need to findout to ascertain.
Normally the person who does thekilling, they have been
commissioned by somebody else. Yeah, because that person was
doing the killing. In 95% of the case that I've
(11:30):
seen, it's normally somebody who's unemployed, poverty, lack
of education may be on the spectrum.
I will also take that with my data.
But normally those are the kind of people that individual does
not have the the constellation to meander that pathway.
So another magister that comes into play is normally a local
(11:51):
business person on coming past business person or a popular
individual within the community or wishes to enhance their
outlook in terms of either property, money, economic
circumstances. So those are normally the full
kind of people involved. And so there's the killing, the
(12:12):
actual killing, and then the ritual that comes after that.
However, most people normally accused as witches are mostly
women, as we know around the world.
I think that's been outlined in your previous conversations,
that most of the people who are then convicted of being witches
are women. And then the victims are mostly
young children. And there's one or two people
(12:33):
who might get away within that matrix.
And also, I think the other thing that I want to touch on, I
wanted to touch on just escape around on the issue of the
women. Yeah.
For example, it also gets reflected in law.
For example, the Witchcraft Suppression Act of most of the
southern African states declare that witchcraft is not real.
(12:54):
It is however new legislation that permit in sub countries,
for example Zimbabwe, the Witchcraft Suppression Act of
2006 says witchcraft and harmfulpractices actually real and they
exist. So the first conviction for
example under that legislation was a female aged 21 in 2009.
(13:15):
She was convicted of which she had in laws by flying in a
basket 100 miles away and the court sentenced to that
dependence based on her own clear.
So that's one example in which you know that legislation and
the issue of the matrix and the individuals are concerned.
(13:36):
Wow. Yeah, I'm can you clarify about
the magic involved? So the good fortune that would
come from the ritual or the bewitchment is that does that
have a diabolical religious element or is it different than
that? No, it's just think I was
watching a a different kind of podcast to make sense to the
(13:58):
origins of some of the ideas to try and harvest some of these
organs. Like different people, different
beliefs can be geographically mapped.
People are in Africa were livingaround animals and they had to
be aware of certain things, certain animals, they had to be
more conscientious of the environment as opposed, for
(14:19):
example, people living in Antakita, they had to be worried
about maybe two or three animalsdown there.
So as a result of the complex nature of the environment,
people started trying to make sense what can help them
survive. Give an example, for example,
over decades, the issue about, for example, the eye of the
albino eye, a child for decades during hunting times was
(14:43):
believed to confer powers so that you can hunt animals, if
that makes sense. So there's this little aspects
of things. For example, they obviously the
organs of a child can help men, They can be mixed with something
and help men with impotent. And there's issues around even
(15:04):
female young victims being ritually murdered, for example,
HIV purposes and things like that.
Then that's why I'm doing this kind of project by the
Streamline kind of these pocketsof, OK, if this happens, this is
what we're looking at and this is where he comes from.
And also, some of these types ofmurders and body parts change
(15:25):
over time because again, the investigative process within the
police stops on arrest. There's no further understanding
of, OK, where does this come from?
Because there's a conflict on law culture or the suspects
merely not saying anything and then the investigation stops.
So there's a gap within that context in all the time to
(15:47):
explain these little different body parts and what they're
supposed to help in terms of they're helping like in real
life, if that makes sense. In your forensic analysis, is
there a clear distinction between cases that are driven by
genuine beliefs versus those where the ritual elements might
(16:08):
be used to mask something other some other criminal motive for a
robbery or a personal vendetta maybe?
Yeah, because I want to say forensic analysis because I
will, not because of it. It's quite difficult again to
that's why I'm something I'm trying to reach out to citizen
governments who are friendly. But the problem is that is some
(16:30):
of the data is muddled and it cannot really be properly
analyzed. Even the one that goes to court,
it's very much muddled. So to answer to your question,
yes they are as I mentioned previously at the start they are
crimes that normally start for example as a lamb dispute.
And then another person goes youfind a witch doctor to try and
(16:55):
get the other person to either give out land or not speak to
him or even kill them. And then it will start as a land
dispute. And then they which doctor gets
involved and then a young another young person gets
recruited to do the actual killing because as I mentioned
previously, most of the offenders are pretty much
unemployed. Normally us on the spectrum ETC.
(17:17):
And then what normally happens in that they that offence
becomes muddled. For example, the case that I was
talking about yesterday, that happened yesterday about the
killing of a 14 year old child. We don't have more information
in regards the other offender. When I was mentioning my theory
on was who's the other people involved?
(17:38):
We don't have that information. And those people are most, in
most cases that I've seen. There's even open cases that you
can watch on music, but that information is not given up by
the offender in most of the cases by even somewhat torture
techniques that are found in Zimbabwe.
Most of that information is not that well known.
Yes, it's difficult because there's so much evidence overlap
(18:01):
or a lack of information in somecases, a dental inflammation in
some cases, to actually label certain crimes that mean that in
certain way. That's why I come in with this
type of research that I'm tryingto do.
Yeah, we find when we're lookingthrough incidents that happen
here, or if you find a documentary done about a serial
(18:25):
killer in U.S. history, often those who are analyzing it don't
know quite what to make of if there's occult signs or evidence
of Satan worship. Sometimes it really is blamed on
that. Other times it's recognize, oh,
(18:47):
that was part of the perpetrator's tactics to create
his persona. So it is really interesting to
to see how these are very different contexts, what I
mentioned and what you're describing.
But there, there is always, it'shard to pin it down sometimes.
(19:07):
So thanks for sharing that because it really helps me
reflect on what I see when we'relooking at crimes here.
And is there anything else you'dwant to share about forensics?
I just at the base or not on that and there are also a
harmful practices in which to answer all your question, a
religious element is involved. So whenever a religious element
(19:29):
is involved, all the suspect tend to appear clear.
To give an example, there was a harmful religious killing last
week whereby a profit test took somebody was on ADHD spectrum,
they gave him a concussion, prayed for him, but concussion
killed that person. So they buried that person at
(19:51):
the shrine, the six of them. However, when the police got
involved because of missing person, they all got arrested
and all confessed. They were all clear in terms of
what they were doing within thatcontext.
So at the North, when it's involved ritual killings, that's
the other problem is the police also have also there.
(20:12):
Biases and stuff, so it doesn't come into fit in terms of
forensics, there's so many parameters that need to be
looked at in terms of the types of evidence that's given.
Because when we're talking aboutforensic evidence, we're looking
at DNA, fiber, hair, oil, digital evidence, liquid
evidence, all sorts of biological evidence.
(20:34):
So in terms of then the rich woman does not normally OK in
Zimbabwe. These there's in general within
those countries, there's lack offorensic facilities.
The main one is South Africa, for example, for example,
Malawi, Zambia, they send most of their forensic analysis to
South Africa. The big ones and the small cases
(20:56):
they deal with them. When we're looking at evidence,
we're looking at the low cut principle that every contact
leads the trace whenever rich ormurder cares.
Because, for example, yesterday there was blood, there was
fiber, there was the instrumentsthat were used by the
individual. And in contemporary context,
we've got mobile phone data thatcan come into play as well in
(21:16):
some of those cases. So all those parameters are very
much often missing. What also adds complexity of the
crime scenes within ritual made is the presence of charms,
bracelets and other liquids and objects.
Because very often when you can see some of this stuff on
(21:37):
Eugene, very often some of the liquids are found.
There are blood cautions which have been mixed with several
people, for example, as a like apower matrix.
So that get complicated crime scene.
In my context, if I'm to go to that scene and swap that scene
and they get 26 DNA profiles, there needs to be an analysis
and understanding and a protocolas a result of that.
(22:00):
For example, using that same example, and this has been
played several times, where a ritual incident is a kid and
there's loads of blood that's been found, even lack of
profiles not been fired, done oncertain objects.
For example, there what popular healers in these countries, they
go around in villages healing people.
(22:22):
Sometimes things go wrong and these people carry with them
evidence from one area to another through the objects that
they carry. Number one, there was the
contacts that they do through the signature rituals that they
do. So those are the type of things
that I'll be looking into. Say, listen, you can have
evidence from rich folks, see that you've been looking for
(22:45):
from a year ago. So this is something that we in
the Western world will probably see on Netflix.
But some people in different countries have got no idea how
much forensic has moved forward in terms of prevention and
detection of this ritual mattersin this context.
You mentioned prevention and that has me curious.
(23:05):
What techniques are there available to prevent these kinds
of attacks? Yes.
So again, this is something I'm I'm wicked on one of the main
things I'll be looking at is using artificial intelligence
around mapping. I would like to, for example,
map the different body parts andtrain an AI model.
Yeah, and implements all that. They can be used by police
(23:28):
forces because at the moment it beat half hazard in terms of
find come up with patterns. We know the offenders, but the
body part area has not been partly been looked at because
people were just actually, actually three days ago there
was a young lad in the centre ofHarare was found with the uterus
walking around selling a uterus.So they arrested him for
(23:48):
interfering with body parts. How'd he get that uterus to that
place? In what sort of what sort of
pattern are we looking at? Is this a different type of
pattern that we're seeing at themoment?
So those are the area that can be quite problematic to get.
That's why I'm trying to do thisproject, so I can be able to
offer more answers to kind of those nuances.
(24:10):
Yeah. Well, you have mentioned a few
times about traditional healers in that role.
Can you tell us what the positive and the benefits of
having those practitioners in the communities?
Yeah, So those practitioners have evolved over time.
(24:31):
They used to shift and then usedto be now people used to be now
elected in the case, for example, this research is semi
ethnographical because it shouldbe to my father, even though
I've got to be honest, he knew that I'd chase because I joined
the police and he knew my PhD unfortunately passed away three
years ago. There are different types of
these healers found in the community.
(24:53):
If I'm to describe my father specialized in fertility, for
example, she was well known as the fertility guy in the country
because at one point he was the secretary general of the healers
association of the country. He had like thousands of
pictures of children that helpedcouples conceive.
So that element in terms of, forexample, my in his healing room,
(25:15):
he had hundreds of powders from various things.
And my idea at the moment, I still was, I wanted to do some
tests on them because not only him would hit that.
There's hundreds of healers of different powders, so some of
them work what I've seen and then some of them it doesn't
work because there's a lack of testing.
If you go on YouTube, you can type in street Medicine Erratic.
(25:37):
You can see loads of people withvarious powders in Harare for if
somebody's with Ed. You want a wife, you want a
husband, you want all sorts of things.
So there's the powder stuff and then there's the trickery stuff.
So a lot of those stuff are not investigated.
A lot of stuff has been utilizedbecause I noted recently that,
(25:57):
for example, moringa is now a trend in the southern.
I don't know if you know of thisMoringa powder contains like 87
different components of vitamins.
It's now a trendy in trendy shops, but that's been used in
Africa by traditional healers not knowing without analysis
that or this powder actually worked on a lot of spectrum.
So a lot of stuff is not tested.That's why I was challenged.
(26:20):
I was talking to my friend because I did I'm coming around
to how some of the things what we can help.
So the area that will help my what will be doing the forensic
investigation, the evidence, thepattern analysis, all that fence
and stuff. Yes, but the only problem
sometimes it cannot be well received.
So I just did a blog for I foundthis fantastic organization
(26:42):
called the Friendship Bench and I've been told is actually one
in Colorado, one in Washington and one in Tennessee.
So a friendship bench is basically was started by a
professor here in London, but hewas born in Zimbabwe.
The idea was, look, aunties who have grown with wisdom and
knowledge, give them a bench, train them a bit around mental
(27:04):
health and identifying certain mental health straits.
Those aunties are in the communities.
You go on the bench, you sit on that bench, you speak to these
aunties, they talk to you because those kind of wisdom
that's embedded with contemporary knowledge on
healthcare. So it's won an award.
This this friendship badge is actually the Princess Trust year
(27:24):
in England is one of the endorsers of projects.
So I ran the Manchester 10K. Then I realized one of my
results will be probably embed some sort of training with some
of these aunties because they within contemporary, they get
more power peoples. So I'm envisaging a situation
(27:45):
whereby an individual, a rumour that I started that saying all
these you be bewitched. No, can you go and see the
auntie please? They go and see the auntie.
Auntie is not a traditional haler, she's not a herbalist.
She's going to take this information objectively and
they're an individual in the right way, if that makes sense.
So those are by possible outputslike a community embedded
(28:10):
process for some of these. But some of these individuals
don't want to go to, for example, to the hospitals they
don't want to go to. They don't.
Some of them don't even have Internet access, for example.
So these, the kind of community aunties for me are going to be
like a good signature in my bookbecause I think it makes sense
within that context. That's amazing.
(28:32):
I'm looking forward to learning more about that, learning
everything about that because that's news to me.
So I'm really excited to learn about.
It I'm quite that my university actually have given me a bench,
a fancy bench whereby normally students who don't, who are away
from home, we've got American students here from everywhere
who don't have a friends. You can go to the bench and see
(28:53):
the public secure area, scan AQRcode, speak to somebody there,
you'll be supposed to have the benefits that you can get, ETC.
You can make friends there, ETC.I'm quite excited that I'm
launching it in September and I'm quite ambitious because I
don't know Stevie Bartlett, yes,but he films The Diary of ACEO
(29:16):
next to my university. So I've made a cheeky request
for you to come and open my bench.
So that's going to be an important outcome for me in
terms of the friendship benches,like linking those in terms of
prevention and detection as well.
That's amazing. And when are you doing your
opening of your bench? My opening in my bench is most
likely in September because that's when the university
(29:37):
calendar year starts. It's something that it didn't
cost me any money because the building was being renovated and
I emailed the facilities. I'll keep the eye witch doctor
or something. I was like, why?
It's like we were looking at what to do with that area there.
We've got nothing to do. I was like put my bench there.
So they put the bench there. I'll send you an article with
the background information around that.
(29:59):
So that's basically why I meant in terms of this research.
So I'm looking at the forensics of of which practices using
contemporary lens and also becoming also I want to come up
with like a theory, like a ritual ecological or theory
whereby I want to challenge individual's beliefs using
(30:19):
technology to mirror whether youbelieve or not.
I'm going to have to use a tool that speaks to both, a tool that
speaks to your belief and a toolthat speaks to spines.
And for me, AI was the thing that could say, listen, yeah, if
you want to do this in terms of these ritual medders and ETC.
And also wanting to support the UN resolution on witchcraft and
(30:42):
harmful practices is a lot of the UN resolution also come with
guidelines. For example, the UN resolution
on genocide has got investigation guidelines.
So a UN resolution on harmful practices can produce guidelines
to support that. So that kind of merits those two
items together. That's all really remarkable to
(31:05):
hear about. Thank you for all your efforts
on that. The the working with the aunties
really sounds very important because they're often at the
center of these accusations. And if they can identify when
it's a mental health thing and that kind of things, but also
(31:28):
just with regular medical concerns, they can be taught,
you know, OK, I can help with this, But for this you need to
go to the hospital and they can tell people that so.
Absolutely, I was too relieved. It's the idea for the aunties
was not in my mind up until because every year I run for
different charity. So when I rent for this, I was
(31:49):
like, I wonder if this is work. So the the person who found
this, it's such a fascinating story.
I'm I encourage you. I don't think I encourage you to
look up his book. I've seen you some links to his
new book that describes the whole process.
And now even in some states in America, they because there were
issues about, for example, the Iwas in a call when they were
(32:09):
doing the launch of the book or there were issues around
diabetes, I think in Tennessee whereby individuals say, oh, it
runs in the family, it's your uncle.
But I say like the aunties are saying, no, you're drinking too
much cooler and you're doing this.
So they're going to these aunties and it's like speaking a
different language. And I said, listen, no, it's not
witchcraft. No, this is not in your family.
You need to change this thing. I think it's going to be my
(32:32):
favorite charity for quite a long time because they train,
they've got training package which is some of them is
available for free individuals to download.
So mine is going to be digital based platform whereby when the
students kind of code, they've got conversation starters, they
can be signposted, they can joina Cricket Club, anything that
(32:53):
can just signpost them quickly whilst they're.
So that's so, yeah, that's a different context in regards.
That is awesome. I'm really excited to read your
blog. I saw that you had posted it a
few days ago and I haven't read it yet, but I had mentioned it
to Josh. I'm like he ran for something.
He's excited about it. We need to find out what that
(33:13):
was and I'm thrilled to hear what it is.
You mentioned the UN resolutionsand with the work that you do,
there must be so many that intersect with your work.
At the moment no, because I've been scouring for other people
doing PhD because I as a member of the international network I'm
(33:34):
trying to get like a demix or doing PhDs within a forensic
context. The moment I'll say.
No. Because I've been looking quite
a bit. There's no guideline, for
example, because I'm, I was quite fortunate, for example,
when we met the Commissioner forthe for that resolution, she was
there. I managed to speak to her last
week. I think I might see her next
(33:56):
week when we're launching A witchcraft film in London next
week, for example. She was telling me like we, we
don't have the guidelines. I say, OK, I'll produce the
guidelines for you. I'm always looking for other
people doing research of witchcraft in different,
different contexts. Not at the moment.
It looks me, but I don't know what I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm curious, in addition
(34:21):
to the, we know about the, of course, the UN resolution on the
witchcraft related harmful practices, are there other UN
resolutions that cover ritual attacks or any of these other
crimes that are happening? Not that I can think of on the
top of my head, but there are other human international
(34:43):
protocols are going to say disappear and people being
disappeared, for example. So there's several UN protocols
that cover, for example, as I mentioned previously, the UN
charter on genocide investigation is covered by what
called the Minnesota guidelines.So at the moment within this
niche area, there isn't much in that.
But in other, every UN protocol normally is embedded with some
(35:05):
other guidelines in terms of high investigation or victims.
For example, the albino kind of protocols, there's some stuff
there, violence against women and girls, genital mutilation.
They all have resolutions there than a guideline there that's in
bed. And developing that guideline
(35:26):
really means hitting definitionshead on and finding those
acceptable terminologies and considerations of spiritual
beliefs, doesn't it? Correct.
And also have to consider languages.
You know, and as a semantic, some words don't exist.
That's a languages. It will be me maybe with an AI
(35:48):
or minimize on witchcraft createnew kind of phrases which people
are doing actually because certain phrases don't exist in
those kind of areas in which I'mas well.
Yeah, I have really enjoyed. See, I see you post about your
work on LinkedIn. I'm a LinkedIn user and fan.
I just think it's so critical for professionals, especially
(36:12):
people who are advocating for humanity.
Thank you for showing your work on there.
But I really do enjoy seeing youtalk about AI because I think
you're demonstrating the power for good of it.
And even though you're just beginning to pull together what
these projects are going to be, you're trailblazing with AI.
(36:35):
That's amazing. You say the very interesting way
this, I don't know. Again, I'm going to assign this
to witchcraft. Liverpool, Liverpool University
Press. They've got a Trail Blazers
award and guess what? Got it.
Did you get it? I got the Trail Blazers award.
Congratulations. After that it's ten of us who
(36:58):
get the trade bases. All it's given to unusual
receipt subject. So in in my court, we've got
Palestinian poets, we've got somebody who's looking at and
the arts, the use of minstrel blood art.
So we've got a very quick project.
I'm doing witchcraft. Somebody's doing Brexit within
immigrants and others doing small boats.
(37:20):
It's very, very interesting troubles as well.
So I'll be that's those are the ones that are sponsoring the
book, hopefully. Wow.
Wow. That's very magical that I
thought that. Wow.
Yes, thank you very much. Thank you.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Thank you. I'm was curious, the Pan African
(37:41):
Parliament issued some guidelines around harmful
practices related to witchcraft accusations.
How did those fit into this whole puzzle?
It'd be fair. They like the African Union.
They've got several human rightsprotocols and guidelines and I'm
away. For example, certain countries
(38:03):
do not find them. For example, Zimbabwe is no
signatory to the International Convention against Missing
Persons within the UN and also within the EU.
So I don't know. There's certain specific
protocols and guidelines to which certain countries simply
do not sign based on what's happening in their country,
based on the types of leaders they've got.
(38:24):
And also in instances whereby Zimbabwe is is signatory to all
the UN conventions against violence against women, ETC.
And yet there's more violence against women in the country and
there's not much noise or the use of the protocol with that
within that context. So the legislation and protocols
can exist sometimes and sometimes cannot be implemented.
(38:47):
What else would you like to makesure that we understand about
this amazing work about the children, or anything else that
we need to really consider when we're learning about this?
Yeah, I think for me a ritual within the context of the areas
(39:08):
that I've been looking at, ritual and harmful practices are
weaponized. I get is women, children,
political opponents, neighbors. So they're used as a weapon by
anybody to do harmful practices.And also issue of labeling, it's
quite prominent in term because it's quite innocuous that of the
(39:31):
year. You can give each other
nicknames by certain countries labeling somebody which like in
Zambia and Malawi can end somebody in court based on
something that's flimsy. If you look at the current
state, the current case in Zambia between the different
political parties in which one party is claiming they were
(39:52):
trying to kill them using as fewobjects, and that case has been
in court for over a year in Supreme Court.
So this is weaponizing of the law against political opponents
and also clogging up the justicesystem.
And also another issue that's important in there's some
definitions and the ambiguity ofboth the investigation and the
(40:15):
legislation in terms for example, in Zambia, they don't
allow they they repeal the Wish Class Operation Act.
And yet they're taking somebody to court over something that
they already appealed. So those are some of the issues
that are concerned. And also there's lack of
material evidence. And if there is evidence, if
evidence that, you know, no offensive and you and I would
(40:37):
laugh at, for example, the case I mentioned about Regina's fetal
case, about the basket. These are fairy tales that we
read in book. So then the material evidence
within those cases, it's very problematic and it needs to be
unpacked and also in certain instances issue about, but
witness testimony when expert onwitchcraft with no time with no
(40:59):
book or any investigation shows up and they give evidence about
certain things based on conjuncture really.
So that's problematic. So those are the any that will
also be looking at holistically and hopefully in the end produce
something that could be used forhuman rights activity,
activists, police, courts and also make possible the UN in
(41:24):
terms of the guidelines. So that's what I'm hope.
You will. I'm.
You will. Yeah, you will.
I'm curious. You talked about types of
evidence and how some of it's probably preposterous.
We've been looking into what wasthe evidence used in witch
(41:46):
trials. So it just has me curious.
What kind of evidence would be produced in court to accuse
someone of flying in a basket? For example, this Zambia case,
if I'm not mistaken, the evidence that's been presented
some liquid in a bottle and I think it broke that got away.
(42:06):
In some instances, it's just shells be made-up mask with
various objects on them. Some objects with skull like
with anatomical looking at objects, some of them real, some
of them pseudo real. And again, this, this I'm trying
(42:27):
to this is the one I'm hoping tocollect a bit further just to
map these things like how do they, because if I can get some
data from the courts, for example, some of the stuff
that's been taken to court, if Ican photography and just use
some AI again to help me out on that one.
Does that be quite quicker to just matching, giving more
(42:48):
understanding, because some of the evidence is very dubious and
very insidious because it's mostly made-up stuff?
Yeah. I was also wondering about that
evidence. So there is a limited amount of
physical evidence. Is there also just a lot of
(43:12):
testimony from the accusers and hearsay conjecture are do those
things in come into play? Pretty much, yes.
So then that's what, for example, it's unfortunate for a
country like Zimbabwe, they've actually made it into law with
which like Suppression Act of 2006 that an accusation is valid
(43:33):
reason for somebody to be takingthe call based on no evidence.
It could be hearsay evidence andalso it could be expert witness
evidence as I mentioned. And also within the metrics what
called healers, Pentecostal flamboyant healers come into the
matrix as well because Mark was quite popular with those as
well. They often will be consulted so
(43:56):
as to say, or they can voice an opinion and can be actually be
valid. So yeah, so evidence very
dubious. There's no, there's lack of
physical examination of the evidence in addition as well.
For example, you can do certain analysis on certain types of
things in terms of fibre analysis, blood analysis, weigh
the objects from the objects, take a sample of the object.
(44:20):
All those things are not really looked at into detail.
Thank you. What do you see happening with
that law? Do you see it staying in play
for a while or do you think it'll be contested and the.
Thing is, the content is those countries, because there is the
human rights, most of the human rights groups in Southern Africa
(44:43):
have got work for tea in terms of going into courts, but they
are very clever. People won't be willing to do
that kind of work. If I'm given the opportunity, I
don't mind looking into that, that I've done all the work.
That will be the next stage really for me to if I can
challenge it constitutionally based on evidence that I've
crude, that would be quite also useful.
(45:07):
Yeah, thanks. This was really amazing.
I feel very fortunate that we were able to learn from your
expertise about this and we appreciate that you came today
and answered these questions andhelped us to understand what can
(45:29):
be done. No, thank you for having me and
keep up the good work and looking forward to this podcast
and the others. I'll try and catch up with a few
as I go along because I need to be up to date as well in what's
happening and please signpost tome.
Anybody was doing any research? She wants to get in touch with
me and they've gone ask me maybeI've not or they've got
(45:51):
interesting angle that I might not be aware of.
I'm more than happy to have a chat and then liaise.
Awesome. Thank you so very much.
Cheers. Thank you, Josh.
Thank you, Sarah. Join our organization in Witch
hunts live on World Day Against Witch Hunts to learn from
(46:12):
leading experts about the survivors of witchcraft
accusations in Ghana outcast camps.
Sunday August 10th and Witch Hunts Events is bringing
together specialist from AmnestyInternational, the Sonnet
Institute, the Total Life Enhancement Center, Ghana Action
(46:33):
Aid and Sanctaba for a crucial discussion on supporting
survivors of witchcraft accusations with a special focus
on women and children in Ghana'soutcast camps.
The World Day Against Witch Hunts isn't just about history,
it's about understanding a crisis happening right now.
(46:53):
Vulnerable people, especially women and children, still face
violence and exile due to witchcraft accusations in
communities that desperately need our support.
This is your opportunity to learn directly from researchers,
advocates, and organizations working directly in these
communities to address their needs.
(47:14):
What's are happening globally? To honor this Day of Remembrance
and Education, please share the event details with your network.
You can register for free at EndWitch hunts.org/day.
This event will help you gain insights that can help turn
awareness into meaningful action.
(47:35):
Because understanding and then starting an important
conversation is where meaningfulchange starts.
Here at the Special Expert PanelSunday, August 10th, 2025 at
5:30 PM GMT That's 1:30 PM EDT. Find the link to this free
online webinar at End Witch hunts.org/day.
(47:58):
Come check us out on the Thing About Salem podcast and join us
on our Patreon for bonus contentand chat.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to The Thing About WitchHunts, the podcast that explores
the devastating impact of witchcraft accusations and other
harmful practices around the world.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. And I'm Sarah Jack, our expert
guest, Doctor Keith Silica, is aremarkable criminal investigator
and lecturer whose work bridges the world of criminology,
(00:21):
forensics and human rights advocacy.
Born in Zimbabwe, Dr. Silica grew up around traditional
healing practices through his father, who is both a healer and
a devout Catholic. His career has taken him from
police work in Zimbabwe to law enforcement and academics in
England, giving him a unique blend of highly specialized
(00:42):
expertise and experience. This dynamic discussion of
witchcraft related harmful practices, forensic evidence and
innovative prevention strategiesis unlike any other episode we
have delivered so far. Welcome to the Thing about witch
Hunts podcast. Doctor Keith Silka, I'm so
excited to have you here today. Can you introduce yourself and
(01:04):
tell us about your expertise andwork?
Thank you for having me, both ofyou.
Very delighted to be here. So I've got a very long,
ambiguous and some people call interesting work profiles.
I'll keep it short. I don't know if you can tell
from my accent. I was born in Zimbabwe, so in
Zebong. So I was when I was young.
When I was of 21 I joined the police there with police there
(01:27):
for about 3 years before that. The background to the story is
my dad used to be a healer, healer, witch doctor.
So I grew up around him, see patients coming to the house,
grew up around ritual cleansing ceremonies.
And then I joined the police when I was 21.
And then when I immigrated to England, I joined the police
(01:48):
again, Wake for the police for about 10-12 years.
And at the same time I was doinga PhD.
So I did studies in undergraduate in criminology, a
master's in crimes investigationand PhD in forensic science.
And then I teach on the policingmodules here in Southwood.
(02:09):
Thank you. It's so good to be talking with
you today. We met last year at the
Witchcraft and Human Rights Conference at Lancaster
University. Why is it important for
conferences like that to be happening right now?
It was my first conference with the international network.
I must say that I'm a member of the international network
(02:29):
Guinness Handful practices. So it's actually my first time
presenting a paper on witchcraftand harmful practices in
Zimbabwe and forensic evidence. So those conferences are quite
important in terms of networking, in terms of
research. Like I'm going to be talking
about my research. So the network is going to be
helping me out with my research.And then the network has helped
(02:50):
me out to reach out to people like you.
So it's quite important those conferences because they're
actually, while some of the things that might discuss might
be innocuous to other people, but in my context, there's
actually victims and people thatI embedded to some of the work
that I do. Thank you so much.
Yeah. For us, coming from the
background in the United States,it really helped us to
(03:12):
contextualize the little bit that we understand.
And it was so important to meet you and others.
And we're so glad you're here talking to us about your work.
We would like to know more aboutZimbabwe.
Oh, thank you very much. My research is all about it.
I'm writing a book on witchcraftand harmful practices in the
(03:35):
context of forensics and evidence and a bit of artificial
intelligence. It will come up together at some
point. So So Zimbabwe, any other
colonial country was a colony since the 1800s.
Zimbabwe, Malawi and Zambia usedto be 1 country, pretty much
like Pakistan and India. They used to be 1 country and
they only separated in the 19606162.
(03:58):
So they became three different countries, Malawi, Zimbabwe and
Zambia. So and I appreciate your the
initial confusion as to which country.
Yeah. So I'll be deputy to go.
So both have got the same colonial history and both have
the same cultures, all the different languages in different
contexts. Both have same issues around
(04:19):
witchcraft and harmful practicesaround the same level.
Both have colonial legislation around witchcraft because
obviously when the colonizers came in, they enacted what
called the Witchcraft is suppression of 1914, which
banned the practice and belief of witchcraft.
And when independence came into four in most of those countries,
(04:42):
they were that most of the legislation as we launched the
other day, I played together, they tried to play around with
the Witchcraft Subtraction Act of those countries because there
is new thinking and still old values in old cultures.
So those are the issues that areembedded.
So the issues about education, about legislation and culture
(05:03):
also then affect the ritual killings and the investigation
and the evidence and everything that comes with it.
What should we know about ritualkillings?
In the context of Zimbabwe, ritual killings is whereby an
individual is intentionally madeit for their body parts.
(05:24):
So this happened. I was actually I've set up a
system I use Google or network by I set up a system whether
there's a killing, I get an e-mail or an article or any
background to it. There's actually a ritual
killing yesterday that I just received.
So it's a ritual killing. The harvesting of body parts on
the beneath that a certain body part will give you certain
(05:44):
benefits. The eye or for example, an
albino child yesterday, the incident yesterday.
This conversation is going to get gory, but we are within
context. But yesterday were killing
involved killing of a 14 year old and the harvesting of their
sexual organs. Exam and some ritual killings
will take the liver, sometimes they'll take the ears.
(06:05):
It depends on what's the agenda,what's the framing, what's the
intention of the offender in that context.
So these ritual killings are pretty much pretty much works
around Africa in different contexts because of language and
culture and location. Certain nuances in terms of the
killing change because they are not uniform, because obviously
(06:28):
we don't have somebody which I'mhopefully trying to produce, OK,
These types of ritual killings are result, this type of vendor,
deep type of contact and deep type of investigation.
The numbers are clearly difficult to ascertain because
certain ritual murder are harmful practices can be
disguised as something else. It could be a domestic violence
(06:51):
or it could be diversity violence that go out the way.
So those cases are very difficult for us to capture in
terms of data. So that's one of the difficult
panadols when trying to encapsulate information around
which are the types of killings.So we have to be very rookie to
cases and just see, OK, there's this element, this element.
So that's in essence the ritual killer and harmful killings
(07:14):
within this context. Thank you.
That's really, that's such a great way to explain it.
Thank you so much. Witchcraft beliefs Dr. This.
What are those and how does it create the conditions for these
attacks? Oh yeah.
So for several reasons, I'm always coming up with theories
(07:34):
and things in my head when I'm looking at what do they come
about? And I call it like the burden of
the African mind whereby if somebody in Africa wants to make
a decision about getting married, getting a job, doing
everyday activities, they have to consider the rituals, the
cultures. And sometimes most people belong
(07:55):
to multiple kind of practices. For example, my father was a
Heela, but he also was Catholic.He never need mass most of his
life. So those are the kind of
elements are there. So what causes this, I think for
me #1 is socio economic circumstances because most of
those areas, and as you will seein future when we bring me back
(08:18):
when I'm talking about the book and there's profiling in terms
of the victims and offenders. So for me #1 is poverty.
Most of these areas, those countries have got low GDP, low
unemployment, lack of resources,ETC.
And there's a result of that. The children don't go to school.
For example, Zimbabwe was dead, the highest number of childbirth
(08:38):
of children, 18, but quite a long time.
And there's a report by the United Nations with that fact.
So there's poverty, the lack of education, lack of resources and
social jealousy because of the way in the age where people can
see images of things and things like, OK, in order for me to get
that the novel ideas of people finding a job have been taken
(09:01):
away by social economic circumstances and mis education
is, well, is quite important because I'm one of the people
who grew up around it. And I believed it because I've
been told by my people, by my peers and by my elders and by my
father, and also peer pressure within communities, OK, you've
got this element. Don't go to the local hospital,
(09:23):
go and see this witch doctor, goand see this profit, ETC.
And also another issue that perpetuates this practice is the
lack of medical facilities. That's why people go and see
here as a witch doctors because they don't have access to proper
medical passages. So that's in essence an
overview, one of some of the reasons that causes some of
(09:44):
these. How are the victims selected for
ritual killings? Why are certain people targeted?
You know the problem which you explain that can I introduce
criminological theory called theroutine activities theory is
called RAT. In order for an offence to OK,
there has to be a suitable victim, a suitable target and
(10:06):
the lack of a capable guardian. Basically if there's dope, if
there's a opportunity for an offense or care and there's no
guardian either in the frame of police or local government
infrastructure or knowledge, their chances of those type of
offenses tend to occur. In terms of victim selection,
it's quite based on reports and what I've seen so far.
(10:27):
The primary at the moment, what seems to be I think in the last
10 years, what seemed to be the victims actually murdered are
mostly young boys and young girls aged anything between the
ages of 3 and 14. That seems to be the age in
which those individuals are. The ones that actually murdered
(10:47):
are mostly, I would say, I wouldsay maybe 60% female, 40% male
between those ages. And the vendor is normally 100%
male. Within this context.
It's normally a male is between 20 and 50.
Yeah, that's the person who doesactually the actual killing.
(11:09):
But there's the third and fourthmatch that comes into play in
the form of normally the person who does the killing.
This is something I need to findout to ascertain.
Normally the person who does thekilling, they have been
commissioned by somebody else. Yeah, because that person was
doing the killing. In 95% of the case that I've
(11:30):
seen, it's normally somebody who's unemployed, poverty, lack
of education may be on the spectrum.
I will also take that with my data.
But normally those are the kind of people that individual does
not have the the constellation to meander that pathway.
So another magister that comes into play is normally a local
(11:51):
business person on coming past business person or a popular
individual within the community or wishes to enhance their
outlook in terms of either property, money, economic
circumstances. So those are normally the full
kind of people involved. And so there's the killing, the
(12:12):
actual killing, and then the ritual that comes after that.
However, most people normally accused as witches are mostly
women, as we know around the world.
I think that's been outlined in your previous conversations,
that most of the people who are then convicted of being witches
are women. And then the victims are mostly
young children. And there's one or two people
(12:33):
who might get away within that matrix.
And also, I think the other thing that I want to touch on, I
wanted to touch on just escape around on the issue of the
women. Yeah.
For example, it also gets reflected in law.
For example, the Witchcraft Suppression Act of most of the
southern African states declare that witchcraft is not real.
(12:54):
It is however new legislation that permit in sub countries,
for example Zimbabwe, the Witchcraft Suppression Act of
2006 says witchcraft and harmfulpractices actually real and they
exist. So the first conviction for
example under that legislation was a female aged 21 in 2009.
(13:15):
She was convicted of which she had in laws by flying in a
basket 100 miles away and the court sentenced to that
dependence based on her own clear.
So that's one example in which you know that legislation and
the issue of the matrix and the individuals are concerned.
(13:36):
Wow. Yeah, I'm can you clarify about
the magic involved? So the good fortune that would
come from the ritual or the bewitchment is that does that
have a diabolical religious element or is it different than
that? No, it's just think I was
watching a a different kind of podcast to make sense to the
(13:58):
origins of some of the ideas to try and harvest some of these
organs. Like different people, different
beliefs can be geographically mapped.
People are in Africa were livingaround animals and they had to
be aware of certain things, certain animals, they had to be
more conscientious of the environment as opposed, for
(14:19):
example, people living in Antakita, they had to be worried
about maybe two or three animalsdown there.
So as a result of the complex nature of the environment,
people started trying to make sense what can help them
survive. Give an example, for example,
over decades, the issue about, for example, the eye of the
albino eye, a child for decades during hunting times was
(14:43):
believed to confer powers so that you can hunt animals, if
that makes sense. So there's this little aspects
of things. For example, they obviously the
organs of a child can help men, They can be mixed with something
and help men with impotent. And there's issues around even
(15:04):
female young victims being ritually murdered, for example,
HIV purposes and things like that.
Then that's why I'm doing this kind of project by the
Streamline kind of these pocketsof, OK, if this happens, this is
what we're looking at and this is where he comes from.
And also, some of these types ofmurders and body parts change
(15:25):
over time because again, the investigative process within the
police stops on arrest. There's no further understanding
of, OK, where does this come from?
Because there's a conflict on law culture or the suspects
merely not saying anything and then the investigation stops.
So there's a gap within that context in all the time to
(15:47):
explain these little different body parts and what they're
supposed to help in terms of they're helping like in real
life, if that makes sense. In your forensic analysis, is
there a clear distinction between cases that are driven by
genuine beliefs versus those where the ritual elements might
(16:08):
be used to mask something other some other criminal motive for a
robbery or a personal vendetta maybe?
Yeah, because I want to say forensic analysis because I
will, not because of it. It's quite difficult again to
that's why I'm something I'm trying to reach out to citizen
governments who are friendly. But the problem is that is some
(16:30):
of the data is muddled and it cannot really be properly
analyzed. Even the one that goes to court,
it's very much muddled. So to answer to your question,
yes they are as I mentioned previously at the start they are
crimes that normally start for example as a lamb dispute.
And then another person goes youfind a witch doctor to try and
(16:55):
get the other person to either give out land or not speak to
him or even kill them. And then it will start as a land
dispute. And then they which doctor gets
involved and then a young another young person gets
recruited to do the actual killing because as I mentioned
previously, most of the offenders are pretty much
unemployed. Normally us on the spectrum ETC.
(17:17):
And then what normally happens in that they that offence
becomes muddled. For example, the case that I was
talking about yesterday, that happened yesterday about the
killing of a 14 year old child. We don't have more information
in regards the other offender. When I was mentioning my theory
on was who's the other people involved?
(17:38):
We don't have that information. And those people are most, in
most cases that I've seen. There's even open cases that you
can watch on music, but that information is not given up by
the offender in most of the cases by even somewhat torture
techniques that are found in Zimbabwe.
Most of that information is not that well known.
Yes, it's difficult because there's so much evidence overlap
(18:01):
or a lack of information in somecases, a dental inflammation in
some cases, to actually label certain crimes that mean that in
certain way. That's why I come in with this
type of research that I'm tryingto do.
Yeah, we find when we're lookingthrough incidents that happen
here, or if you find a documentary done about a serial
(18:25):
killer in U.S. history, often those who are analyzing it don't
know quite what to make of if there's occult signs or evidence
of Satan worship. Sometimes it really is blamed on
that. Other times it's recognize, oh,
(18:47):
that was part of the perpetrator's tactics to create
his persona. So it is really interesting to
to see how these are very different contexts, what I
mentioned and what you're describing.
But there, there is always, it'shard to pin it down sometimes.
(19:07):
So thanks for sharing that because it really helps me
reflect on what I see when we'relooking at crimes here.
And is there anything else you'dwant to share about forensics?
I just at the base or not on that and there are also a
harmful practices in which to answer all your question, a
religious element is involved. So whenever a religious element
(19:29):
is involved, all the suspect tend to appear clear.
To give an example, there was a harmful religious killing last
week whereby a profit test took somebody was on ADHD spectrum,
they gave him a concussion, prayed for him, but concussion
killed that person. So they buried that person at
(19:51):
the shrine, the six of them. However, when the police got
involved because of missing person, they all got arrested
and all confessed. They were all clear in terms of
what they were doing within thatcontext.
So at the North, when it's involved ritual killings, that's
the other problem is the police also have also there.
(20:12):
Biases and stuff, so it doesn't come into fit in terms of
forensics, there's so many parameters that need to be
looked at in terms of the types of evidence that's given.
Because when we're talking aboutforensic evidence, we're looking
at DNA, fiber, hair, oil, digital evidence, liquid
evidence, all sorts of biological evidence.
(20:34):
So in terms of then the rich woman does not normally OK in
Zimbabwe. These there's in general within
those countries, there's lack offorensic facilities.
The main one is South Africa, for example, for example,
Malawi, Zambia, they send most of their forensic analysis to
South Africa. The big ones and the small cases
(20:56):
they deal with them. When we're looking at evidence,
we're looking at the low cut principle that every contact
leads the trace whenever rich ormurder cares.
Because, for example, yesterday there was blood, there was
fiber, there was the instrumentsthat were used by the
individual. And in contemporary context,
we've got mobile phone data thatcan come into play as well in
(21:16):
some of those cases. So all those parameters are very
much often missing. What also adds complexity of the
crime scenes within ritual made is the presence of charms,
bracelets and other liquids and objects.
Because very often when you can see some of this stuff on
(21:37):
Eugene, very often some of the liquids are found.
There are blood cautions which have been mixed with several
people, for example, as a like apower matrix.
So that get complicated crime scene.
In my context, if I'm to go to that scene and swap that scene
and they get 26 DNA profiles, there needs to be an analysis
and understanding and a protocolas a result of that.
(22:00):
For example, using that same example, and this has been
played several times, where a ritual incident is a kid and
there's loads of blood that's been found, even lack of
profiles not been fired, done oncertain objects.
For example, there what popular healers in these countries, they
go around in villages healing people.
(22:22):
Sometimes things go wrong and these people carry with them
evidence from one area to another through the objects that
they carry. Number one, there was the
contacts that they do through the signature rituals that they
do. So those are the type of things
that I'll be looking into. Say, listen, you can have
evidence from rich folks, see that you've been looking for
(22:45):
from a year ago. So this is something that we in
the Western world will probably see on Netflix.
But some people in different countries have got no idea how
much forensic has moved forward in terms of prevention and
detection of this ritual mattersin this context.
You mentioned prevention and that has me curious.
(23:05):
What techniques are there available to prevent these kinds
of attacks? Yes.
So again, this is something I'm I'm wicked on one of the main
things I'll be looking at is using artificial intelligence
around mapping. I would like to, for example,
map the different body parts andtrain an AI model.
Yeah, and implements all that. They can be used by police
(23:28):
forces because at the moment it beat half hazard in terms of
find come up with patterns. We know the offenders, but the
body part area has not been partly been looked at because
people were just actually, actually three days ago there
was a young lad in the centre ofHarare was found with the uterus
walking around selling a uterus.So they arrested him for
(23:48):
interfering with body parts. How'd he get that uterus to that
place? In what sort of what sort of
pattern are we looking at? Is this a different type of
pattern that we're seeing at themoment?
So those are the area that can be quite problematic to get.
That's why I'm trying to do thisproject, so I can be able to
offer more answers to kind of those nuances.
(24:10):
Yeah. Well, you have mentioned a few
times about traditional healers in that role.
Can you tell us what the positive and the benefits of
having those practitioners in the communities?
Yeah, So those practitioners have evolved over time.
(24:31):
They used to shift and then usedto be now people used to be now
elected in the case, for example, this research is semi
ethnographical because it shouldbe to my father, even though
I've got to be honest, he knew that I'd chase because I joined
the police and he knew my PhD unfortunately passed away three
years ago. There are different types of
these healers found in the community.
(24:53):
If I'm to describe my father specialized in fertility, for
example, she was well known as the fertility guy in the country
because at one point he was the secretary general of the healers
association of the country. He had like thousands of
pictures of children that helpedcouples conceive.
So that element in terms of, forexample, my in his healing room,
(25:15):
he had hundreds of powders from various things.
And my idea at the moment, I still was, I wanted to do some
tests on them because not only him would hit that.
There's hundreds of healers of different powders, so some of
them work what I've seen and then some of them it doesn't
work because there's a lack of testing.
If you go on YouTube, you can type in street Medicine Erratic.
(25:37):
You can see loads of people withvarious powders in Harare for if
somebody's with Ed. You want a wife, you want a
husband, you want all sorts of things.
So there's the powder stuff and then there's the trickery stuff.
So a lot of those stuff are not investigated.
A lot of stuff has been utilizedbecause I noted recently that,
(25:57):
for example, moringa is now a trend in the southern.
I don't know if you know of thisMoringa powder contains like 87
different components of vitamins.
It's now a trendy in trendy shops, but that's been used in
Africa by traditional healers not knowing without analysis
that or this powder actually worked on a lot of spectrum.
So a lot of stuff is not tested.That's why I was challenged.
(26:20):
I was talking to my friend because I did I'm coming around
to how some of the things what we can help.
So the area that will help my what will be doing the forensic
investigation, the evidence, thepattern analysis, all that fence
and stuff. Yes, but the only problem
sometimes it cannot be well received.
So I just did a blog for I foundthis fantastic organization
(26:42):
called the Friendship Bench and I've been told is actually one
in Colorado, one in Washington and one in Tennessee.
So a friendship bench is basically was started by a
professor here in London, but hewas born in Zimbabwe.
The idea was, look, aunties who have grown with wisdom and
knowledge, give them a bench, train them a bit around mental
(27:04):
health and identifying certain mental health straits.
Those aunties are in the communities.
You go on the bench, you sit on that bench, you speak to these
aunties, they talk to you because those kind of wisdom
that's embedded with contemporary knowledge on
healthcare. So it's won an award.
This this friendship badge is actually the Princess Trust year
(27:24):
in England is one of the endorsers of projects.
So I ran the Manchester 10K. Then I realized one of my
results will be probably embed some sort of training with some
of these aunties because they within contemporary, they get
more power peoples. So I'm envisaging a situation
(27:45):
whereby an individual, a rumour that I started that saying all
these you be bewitched. No, can you go and see the
auntie please? They go and see the auntie.
Auntie is not a traditional haler, she's not a herbalist.
She's going to take this information objectively and
they're an individual in the right way, if that makes sense.
So those are by possible outputslike a community embedded
(28:10):
process for some of these. But some of these individuals
don't want to go to, for example, to the hospitals they
don't want to go to. They don't.
Some of them don't even have Internet access, for example.
So these, the kind of community aunties for me are going to be
like a good signature in my bookbecause I think it makes sense
within that context. That's amazing.
(28:32):
I'm looking forward to learning more about that, learning
everything about that because that's news to me.
So I'm really excited to learn about.
It I'm quite that my university actually have given me a bench,
a fancy bench whereby normally students who don't, who are away
from home, we've got American students here from everywhere
who don't have a friends. You can go to the bench and see
(28:53):
the public secure area, scan AQRcode, speak to somebody there,
you'll be supposed to have the benefits that you can get, ETC.
You can make friends there, ETC.I'm quite excited that I'm
launching it in September and I'm quite ambitious because I
don't know Stevie Bartlett, yes,but he films The Diary of ACEO
(29:16):
next to my university. So I've made a cheeky request
for you to come and open my bench.
So that's going to be an important outcome for me in
terms of the friendship benches,like linking those in terms of
prevention and detection as well.
That's amazing. And when are you doing your
opening of your bench? My opening in my bench is most
likely in September because that's when the university
(29:37):
calendar year starts. It's something that it didn't
cost me any money because the building was being renovated and
I emailed the facilities. I'll keep the eye witch doctor
or something. I was like, why?
It's like we were looking at what to do with that area there.
We've got nothing to do. I was like put my bench there.
So they put the bench there. I'll send you an article with
the background information around that.
(29:59):
So that's basically why I meant in terms of this research.
So I'm looking at the forensics of of which practices using
contemporary lens and also becoming also I want to come up
with like a theory, like a ritual ecological or theory
whereby I want to challenge individual's beliefs using
(30:19):
technology to mirror whether youbelieve or not.
I'm going to have to use a tool that speaks to both, a tool that
speaks to your belief and a toolthat speaks to spines.
And for me, AI was the thing that could say, listen, yeah, if
you want to do this in terms of these ritual medders and ETC.
And also wanting to support the UN resolution on witchcraft and
(30:42):
harmful practices is a lot of the UN resolution also come with
guidelines. For example, the UN resolution
on genocide has got investigation guidelines.
So a UN resolution on harmful practices can produce guidelines
to support that. So that kind of merits those two
items together. That's all really remarkable to
(31:05):
hear about. Thank you for all your efforts
on that. The the working with the aunties
really sounds very important because they're often at the
center of these accusations. And if they can identify when
it's a mental health thing and that kind of things, but also
(31:28):
just with regular medical concerns, they can be taught,
you know, OK, I can help with this, But for this you need to
go to the hospital and they can tell people that so.
Absolutely, I was too relieved. It's the idea for the aunties
was not in my mind up until because every year I run for
different charity. So when I rent for this, I was
(31:49):
like, I wonder if this is work. So the the person who found
this, it's such a fascinating story.
I'm I encourage you. I don't think I encourage you to
look up his book. I've seen you some links to his
new book that describes the whole process.
And now even in some states in America, they because there were
issues about, for example, the Iwas in a call when they were
(32:09):
doing the launch of the book or there were issues around
diabetes, I think in Tennessee whereby individuals say, oh, it
runs in the family, it's your uncle.
But I say like the aunties are saying, no, you're drinking too
much cooler and you're doing this.
So they're going to these aunties and it's like speaking a
different language. And I said, listen, no, it's not
witchcraft. No, this is not in your family.
You need to change this thing. I think it's going to be my
(32:32):
favorite charity for quite a long time because they train,
they've got training package which is some of them is
available for free individuals to download.
So mine is going to be digital based platform whereby when the
students kind of code, they've got conversation starters, they
can be signposted, they can joina Cricket Club, anything that
(32:53):
can just signpost them quickly whilst they're.
So that's so, yeah, that's a different context in regards.
That is awesome. I'm really excited to read your
blog. I saw that you had posted it a
few days ago and I haven't read it yet, but I had mentioned it
to Josh. I'm like he ran for something.
He's excited about it. We need to find out what that
(33:13):
was and I'm thrilled to hear what it is.
You mentioned the UN resolutionsand with the work that you do,
there must be so many that intersect with your work.
At the moment no, because I've been scouring for other people
doing PhD because I as a member of the international network I'm
(33:34):
trying to get like a demix or doing PhDs within a forensic
context. The moment I'll say.
No. Because I've been looking quite
a bit. There's no guideline, for
example, because I'm, I was quite fortunate, for example,
when we met the Commissioner forthe for that resolution, she was
there. I managed to speak to her last
week. I think I might see her next
(33:56):
week when we're launching A witchcraft film in London next
week, for example. She was telling me like we, we
don't have the guidelines. I say, OK, I'll produce the
guidelines for you. I'm always looking for other
people doing research of witchcraft in different,
different contexts. Not at the moment.
It looks me, but I don't know what I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm curious, in addition
(34:21):
to the, we know about the, of course, the UN resolution on the
witchcraft related harmful practices, are there other UN
resolutions that cover ritual attacks or any of these other
crimes that are happening? Not that I can think of on the
top of my head, but there are other human international
(34:43):
protocols are going to say disappear and people being
disappeared, for example. So there's several UN protocols
that cover, for example, as I mentioned previously, the UN
charter on genocide investigation is covered by what
called the Minnesota guidelines.So at the moment within this
niche area, there isn't much in that.
But in other, every UN protocol normally is embedded with some
(35:05):
other guidelines in terms of high investigation or victims.
For example, the albino kind of protocols, there's some stuff
there, violence against women and girls, genital mutilation.
They all have resolutions there than a guideline there that's in
bed. And developing that guideline
(35:26):
really means hitting definitionshead on and finding those
acceptable terminologies and considerations of spiritual
beliefs, doesn't it? Correct.
And also have to consider languages.
You know, and as a semantic, some words don't exist.
That's a languages. It will be me maybe with an AI
(35:48):
or minimize on witchcraft createnew kind of phrases which people
are doing actually because certain phrases don't exist in
those kind of areas in which I'mas well.
Yeah, I have really enjoyed. See, I see you post about your
work on LinkedIn. I'm a LinkedIn user and fan.
I just think it's so critical for professionals, especially
(36:12):
people who are advocating for humanity.
Thank you for showing your work on there.
But I really do enjoy seeing youtalk about AI because I think
you're demonstrating the power for good of it.
And even though you're just beginning to pull together what
these projects are going to be, you're trailblazing with AI.
(36:35):
That's amazing. You say the very interesting way
this, I don't know. Again, I'm going to assign this
to witchcraft. Liverpool, Liverpool University
Press. They've got a Trail Blazers
award and guess what? Got it.
Did you get it? I got the Trail Blazers award.
Congratulations. After that it's ten of us who
(36:58):
get the trade bases. All it's given to unusual
receipt subject. So in in my court, we've got
Palestinian poets, we've got somebody who's looking at and
the arts, the use of minstrel blood art.
So we've got a very quick project.
I'm doing witchcraft. Somebody's doing Brexit within
immigrants and others doing small boats.
(37:20):
It's very, very interesting troubles as well.
So I'll be that's those are the ones that are sponsoring the
book, hopefully. Wow.
Wow. That's very magical that I
thought that. Wow.
Yes, thank you very much. Thank you.
Yeah, Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Thank you. I'm was curious, the Pan African
(37:41):
Parliament issued some guidelines around harmful
practices related to witchcraft accusations.
How did those fit into this whole puzzle?
It'd be fair. They like the African Union.
They've got several human rightsprotocols and guidelines and I'm
away. For example, certain countries
(38:03):
do not find them. For example, Zimbabwe is no
signatory to the International Convention against Missing
Persons within the UN and also within the EU.
So I don't know. There's certain specific
protocols and guidelines to which certain countries simply
do not sign based on what's happening in their country,
based on the types of leaders they've got.
(38:24):
And also in instances whereby Zimbabwe is is signatory to all
the UN conventions against violence against women, ETC.
And yet there's more violence against women in the country and
there's not much noise or the use of the protocol with that
within that context. So the legislation and protocols
can exist sometimes and sometimes cannot be implemented.
(38:47):
What else would you like to makesure that we understand about
this amazing work about the children, or anything else that
we need to really consider when we're learning about this?
Yeah, I think for me a ritual within the context of the areas
(39:08):
that I've been looking at, ritual and harmful practices are
weaponized. I get is women, children,
political opponents, neighbors. So they're used as a weapon by
anybody to do harmful practices.And also issue of labeling, it's
quite prominent in term because it's quite innocuous that of the
(39:31):
year. You can give each other
nicknames by certain countries labeling somebody which like in
Zambia and Malawi can end somebody in court based on
something that's flimsy. If you look at the current
state, the current case in Zambia between the different
political parties in which one party is claiming they were
(39:52):
trying to kill them using as fewobjects, and that case has been
in court for over a year in Supreme Court.
So this is weaponizing of the law against political opponents
and also clogging up the justicesystem.
And also another issue that's important in there's some
definitions and the ambiguity ofboth the investigation and the
(40:15):
legislation in terms for example, in Zambia, they don't
allow they they repeal the Wish Class Operation Act.
And yet they're taking somebody to court over something that
they already appealed. So those are some of the issues
that are concerned. And also there's lack of
material evidence. And if there is evidence, if
evidence that, you know, no offensive and you and I would
(40:37):
laugh at, for example, the case I mentioned about Regina's fetal
case, about the basket. These are fairy tales that we
read in book. So then the material evidence
within those cases, it's very problematic and it needs to be
unpacked and also in certain instances issue about, but
witness testimony when expert onwitchcraft with no time with no
(40:59):
book or any investigation shows up and they give evidence about
certain things based on conjuncture really.
So that's problematic. So those are the any that will
also be looking at holistically and hopefully in the end produce
something that could be used forhuman rights activity,
activists, police, courts and also make possible the UN in
(41:24):
terms of the guidelines. So that's what I'm hope.
You will. I'm.
You will. Yeah, you will.
I'm curious. You talked about types of
evidence and how some of it's probably preposterous.
We've been looking into what wasthe evidence used in witch
(41:46):
trials. So it just has me curious.
What kind of evidence would be produced in court to accuse
someone of flying in a basket? For example, this Zambia case,
if I'm not mistaken, the evidence that's been presented
some liquid in a bottle and I think it broke that got away.
(42:06):
In some instances, it's just shells be made-up mask with
various objects on them. Some objects with skull like
with anatomical looking at objects, some of them real, some
of them pseudo real. And again, this, this I'm trying
(42:27):
to this is the one I'm hoping tocollect a bit further just to
map these things like how do they, because if I can get some
data from the courts, for example, some of the stuff
that's been taken to court, if Ican photography and just use
some AI again to help me out on that one.
Does that be quite quicker to just matching, giving more
(42:48):
understanding, because some of the evidence is very dubious and
very insidious because it's mostly made-up stuff?
Yeah. I was also wondering about that
evidence. So there is a limited amount of
physical evidence. Is there also just a lot of
(43:12):
testimony from the accusers and hearsay conjecture are do those
things in come into play? Pretty much, yes.
So then that's what, for example, it's unfortunate for a
country like Zimbabwe, they've actually made it into law with
which like Suppression Act of 2006 that an accusation is valid
(43:33):
reason for somebody to be takingthe call based on no evidence.
It could be hearsay evidence andalso it could be expert witness
evidence as I mentioned. And also within the metrics what
called healers, Pentecostal flamboyant healers come into the
matrix as well because Mark was quite popular with those as
well. They often will be consulted so
(43:56):
as to say, or they can voice an opinion and can be actually be
valid. So yeah, so evidence very
dubious. There's no, there's lack of
physical examination of the evidence in addition as well.
For example, you can do certain analysis on certain types of
things in terms of fibre analysis, blood analysis, weigh
the objects from the objects, take a sample of the object.
(44:20):
All those things are not really looked at into detail.
Thank you. What do you see happening with
that law? Do you see it staying in play
for a while or do you think it'll be contested and the.
Thing is, the content is those countries, because there is the
human rights, most of the human rights groups in Southern Africa
(44:43):
have got work for tea in terms of going into courts, but they
are very clever. People won't be willing to do
that kind of work. If I'm given the opportunity, I
don't mind looking into that, that I've done all the work.
That will be the next stage really for me to if I can
challenge it constitutionally based on evidence that I've
crude, that would be quite also useful.
(45:07):
Yeah, thanks. This was really amazing.
I feel very fortunate that we were able to learn from your
expertise about this and we appreciate that you came today
and answered these questions andhelped us to understand what can
(45:29):
be done. No, thank you for having me and
keep up the good work and looking forward to this podcast
and the others. I'll try and catch up with a few
as I go along because I need to be up to date as well in what's
happening and please signpost tome.
Anybody was doing any research? She wants to get in touch with
me and they've gone ask me maybeI've not or they've got
(45:51):
interesting angle that I might not be aware of.
I'm more than happy to have a chat and then liaise.
Awesome. Thank you so very much.
Cheers. Thank you, Josh.
Thank you, Sarah. Join our organization in Witch
hunts live on World Day Against Witch Hunts to learn from
(46:12):
leading experts about the survivors of witchcraft
accusations in Ghana outcast camps.
Sunday August 10th and Witch Hunts Events is bringing
together specialist from AmnestyInternational, the Sonnet
Institute, the Total Life Enhancement Center, Ghana Action
(46:33):
Aid and Sanctaba for a crucial discussion on supporting
survivors of witchcraft accusations with a special focus
on women and children in Ghana'soutcast camps.
The World Day Against Witch Hunts isn't just about history,
it's about understanding a crisis happening right now.
(46:53):
Vulnerable people, especially women and children, still face
violence and exile due to witchcraft accusations in
communities that desperately need our support.
This is your opportunity to learn directly from researchers,
advocates, and organizations working directly in these
communities to address their needs.
(47:14):
What's are happening globally? To honor this Day of Remembrance
and Education, please share the event details with your network.
You can register for free at EndWitch hunts.org/day.
This event will help you gain insights that can help turn
awareness into meaningful action.
(47:35):
Because understanding and then starting an important
conversation is where meaningfulchange starts.
Here at the Special Expert PanelSunday, August 10th, 2025 at
5:30 PM GMT That's 1:30 PM EDT. Find the link to this free
online webinar at End Witch hunts.org/day.
(47:58):
Come check us out on the Thing About Salem podcast and join us
on our Patreon for bonus contentand chat.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!