December 9, 2025 • 48 mins
In this episode, Josh and Sarah speak with the creative team behind "The Witch of Woodbury," a theatrical production at Connecticut's Glebe House Museum that brings 17th-century witch trial victims to life through performance.
Featured Guests:
Linda Barr-Gale - Actress portraying Moll Cramer for 13 years and production writer
Loriann Witte - Director of Glebe House Museum, portraying Rebecca Greensmith
Maribeth Cummings - Actress portraying Katherine Harrison for 5 years
Vail Barrett - Actor portraying accuser Thomas Allyn
Key Topics:
The legend of Moll Cramer, the "Witch of Woodbury" who was banished to Tophet Road
Connecticut's witch trial history from 1647-1663, including 11 executions
How Governor John Winthrop Jr. transformed Connecticut's approach to witchcraft accusations
Accused Witch Katherine Harrison's well-documented case and its role in changing spectral evidence standards
Executed woman Rebecca Greensmith's role in the Hartford Witch Panic of 1662
The perspective of accusers like Thomas Allyn and the climate of fear in colonial Connecticut
Using theatrical performance to make history accessible and memorable for modern audiences
Historical Context: The performance emphasizes the stark differences between Connecticut's evolving legal standards under Winthrop and the later Salem trials.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the thing about witchhunts.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today you're going to hear from the creative team behind Ground
0 Witchcraft in Connecticut thatis produced for the community of
Woodbury, CT. Joining us are Linda Bargale,
Mary Beth Cummings, H Vale Barrett and Laurie Ann Witt.
(00:23):
They created something really special, a groundbreaking
theatrical presentation for Glebe House Museum's 100th
anniversary. This project has quite a
history. It all started with Linda's
years long portrayal of Malt Gramer, a woman accused of
witchcraft and expelled from Woodbury.
(00:45):
And it's grown significantly over time.
It evolved from popular cemeterytours to a one woman show to a
full theatrical production. The performance brought together
4 historical figures, Moll Cramer, Thomas Allen, Rebecca
Greensmith and Catherine Harrison.
Let's chat about this amazing effort.
(01:06):
Hello everybody, welcome to The Thing about Witch Hunts
podcasts. Today we have special guests
from the Woodbury Glebe House Ground Zero production
Witchcraft in Connecticut. Please introduce yourselves,
Vale. Barrett from Bridgewater, CT
This is the second event I've done with the Glebe House and I
(01:27):
found it very educational and a lot of fun.
Mary Elizabeth Cummings from Morris, CT I've been playing
gosh, Katherine Harris, a woman accused of witchcraft in 1666,
for five years now. Linda, I'm not sure, but yeah,
in in the Glebe House production.
(01:48):
Yeah. And Linda?
Gale I've been playing Mall Kramer, The Witch of Woodbury
for about 13 years and I have been writing the productions for
Connecticut Witches and The Witch of Woodbury.
I'm Laurie Ann Witt and I am thedirector of the Glebe House
(02:10):
Museum in Woodbury, CT. I'm also from Woodbury and I
also portrayed Rebecca Greensmith who was an accused
witch and she was also hanged for witchcraft.
Thank you all so much. What background do you want our
audience to know about the GlebeHouse?
(02:31):
The Glebe House Museum Man Gertridge Eagle Garden in
Woodbury, CT is a Revolutionary War historic house museum.
Our interpretation time is 1771 to 1786, during the time of the
American Revolution, although the house was built between 1740
and 1750. It's a Georgian colonial.
(02:55):
It's very unique in its architecture.
It's a salt box mixed with a gambrel style, which is very,
very different in New England. We get a lot of architecture
students who come to see our house.
We do tours, we do educational programs.
We have programs for adults and children, workshops, and we do a
(03:16):
lot of special events like the Ground Zero that we just
produced, as well as being knownas the birth place of the
American Episcopal Church, or for, you know, common knowledge,
the Anglican Church as it used to be called.
And very important events happened there for the
(03:36):
separation of church and state. This is so wonderful.
I'm so excited to have you guys here today.
It's really important to us to be able to get into the
communities and talk to those who are telling the stories of
history, and you guys have put together something so special
(03:58):
and so important. So thank you for that.
Let's start with finding out a little bit about Mal Kramer.
Who is Mal Kramer? Mal Kramer was a woman who lived
in Woodbury, CT approximately between 1750 and 1812 and she
(04:21):
was married to the local blacksmith.
And there is all kinds of stories and legends surrounding
Mall which were fascinating to me to 1st hear about her.
And the stories that seem to continue from person to person
(04:42):
are about Mall's affinity for horses.
She used to race horses and was,I guess you would say a horse
whisperer. It was also she had an affinity
for certain plants, one of whichwas raspberries.
Wild raspberries used to always grow around wherever Mall lived
(05:03):
and they were enormous. And so I thought, well, that's
different. And she apparently was.
There were variety of stories. The original ones talk about a
conflict that she had with her husband.
Some say that he couldn't do hisblacksmith work well because
(05:29):
Moll used to disturb him every time she walked into the bar and
the horseshoes would fly off thehorses.
And because I figured she was a witch.
Another one was that Moll that her husband also raced horses
and he would lose to Mall. Therefore he resented Mall and
(05:49):
all of these things dealing withiron and all of that, and that
he felt that she was a witch because of her effect on iron
and horseshoes and all of that. There also was an association
between Mall and a local pig farmer in that mall was accused
(06:12):
of killing him and all of his pics.
She went to his farm one day andthey had a heated discussion.
He would not sell her any pork. She cursed him and left and
shortly thereafter his pigs started dying and then within a
(06:34):
week the farmer was also dead. And of course that led to Mall
being banished from Woodbury. And.
But it's interesting how the story evolved.
You hear a lot about her husbandbanishing her because of his
(06:58):
dissatisfaction and the hindering of his work, but that
doesn't really hold water when you look at it because she not
only she was banished from her home, but her little son was
also banished. And of course there is a lot of
(07:21):
guilt by association in Connecticut.
You see that throughout the different witch stories.
If you are a friend of family, of a accused witch, you can
easily get that rubbed off on yourselves.
Mary Staples, for example. I mean, there's so many which we
bring out in the production. It seems like the town was very
(07:44):
guilty about what they had done,that they had banished a woman
and her son to the outskirts of Woodbury and she became an
extortionist. She was known to have fiery red
hair and she had a very bad temper.
And she doesn't seem like the meek kind of character that some
(08:09):
of them portray her as. She seems like a very bold, in
your face kind of woman. And she did go back down to the
town and extort money and food and supplies.
And eventually she got enough totake her son and herself away.
(08:30):
We think she went to New York State to get away so her son
could have a normal life. He certainly couldn't have a
normal life in Woodbury. And over time, I think the
people of Woodbury were very embarrassed about what they had
done. And so the story switched to her
husband threw her out. But as I said, that doesn't
(08:53):
really hold water. She didn't put a curse on the
town. Before she left, she said that
Woodbury would get some of the worst Thunder and lightning
storms in Litchfield County. And some agree that the curse
worked because we get some whoppers here in Woodbury.
(09:14):
So that is a nutshell. Mall Kramer.
I've met her descendants so I know she lived.
Some people had a legend that she died and her son died of
exposure but she did not becauseher descendants have contacted
me and I've spoken with them. I've also visited her house
(09:37):
where she lived with her husband, which he had inherited
and generations of his family had lived there so he can see
why he didn't leave with her. He had his business.
He had a multi generational household and which still
exists. I went through it.
So where she lived it was reallyquite wonderful.
(10:01):
Where she was banished to was the top of the hill.
We live in the Litchfield Hills so being on top of the hill is
not a hard thing. But the road is called Tofet and
Tofet is from the Bible. It means hell or the devil.
So say put her on Hell Rd. and avery famous writer also lived.
(10:25):
We have a lot of celebrities that live in the Woodbury area.
And so she lived on the same Rd.eventually decades later as
Arthur Miller who wrote The Crucible.
So Mall and Arthur have something in common.
They both lived on Tophet Road. So it's a fascinating story.
(10:48):
I keep on trying to find out newthings about Mall all the time.
That's it. And I'm not sure.
Great. Thank you.
That's an amazing story. Some of the elements remind me
of some other Connecticut witch trial stories and other New
England stories that it involvesthis extraordinary person by all
(11:11):
accounts. And she might be a little
quarrelsome or, you know, peoplethink that she's a too upfront,
that kind of story. When did Tales of Mal Kramer
first appear in writing? I think in 1872, with the
History of Ancient Woodbury withWilliam Cawthorne, he wrote
(11:34):
about her in that and he had herhusband threw her out kind of
thing. But also the other little
tidbits, the affinity for horses, which was really quite
extraordinary. That was the first source that I
went to was Cosmo. The.
Volunteers at the Glebe House are really quite extraordinary,
(11:57):
and many of them have grown up with these stories.
So I basically talked to as manyof the volunteers as I could,
particularly the ones who grew up here.
I did not grow up here at all, so I didn't know any of this
stuff, though. Everything was new to me.
(12:17):
But they had a wealth of knowledge and they were very
critical too, of Mall being meekand just going up and staying in
her shack. No one's going to kick Mall out
of anything. But the banishment was important
because we saw Governor WinthropJunior, he used banishment
(12:39):
rather than hanging. The last which was hanged in
Connecticut was in 1663, and that was Mary Barnes of
Farmington. After that, Winthrop's influence
was the hallmark of the Connecticut which seen in that
he got it, he took down spectralevidence.
(13:02):
He also made it used banishment as the preferred form if there
was a conviction. If there was a conviction, he
made it so the prosecutor had toprove that they were guilty.
So you were a presumed innocent in Connecticut, which made it
very different from Massachusetts later on in the
(13:25):
1690s. So Connecticut started off
badly, very badly, with 11 people killed within a 16 year
period. I mean, there's no doubt about
it. And Connecticut is very ashamed
of that, and many of the recordsare missing for very good
reasons. Thank you so much.
(13:48):
It's such a delight to get to talk about the Connecticut
history today, and I really loveit when these discussions spring
out of art and events and storytelling.
Lori, Ann and Linda How did events for Mall Kramer begin?
(14:11):
Like Linda said she had been playing Mall Kramer.
She's been playing that part forthe past 13 years.
So she's been playing it longer than I've been the director at
the Gleep house. I've been the director this year
for nine years. And when I started, Linda had
already been playing Mall Kramerin the cemetery.
(14:32):
Because like I said, we do, which are upcoming, we do tours
through our cemetery where we tell the stories of the real
people of Woodbury and their history.
And she was playing that part upin the cemetery.
But her part became Maul's storyreally resonates with people and
people loved hearing it. And as Linda's, the amount of
(14:55):
wealth of knowledge that she wasgaining and all the research she
was doing, as this part grows, it becomes to me too big to be
in the cemetery because cemeteryparts, you can't stand there
really for 20 minutes and talk because we've got to move the
groups along. So I came up with this idea when
(15:16):
I started, well, why don't we put mall into?
We have a cottage building that we use for our office.
Why can't she have her own little stand alone show inside
of the cottage? And we'll set it up for seating
and we can have someone watch the door and let groups come in
and Moll can do her thing and talk to everyone and then we'll
(15:40):
just keep feeding people to her that way.
And so her story can get longer.She can do 1/2 an hour instead
of just the little 10 minute blurb.
And then that became so popular and of course we had COVID in
there. So the concept is for people
that we're all going to jam intothis really small room in a
(16:01):
cottage was not a good idea anymore.
I started renting a tent for ourbackyard and putting mall in the
tent. And we would decorate the tent
and have the typical like the things that people expect.
We we usually do as well, like having the bubbling cauldron
with the dry ice in it and the lights and everything.
(16:22):
And Linda came up with the idea of, well, instead of people,
maybe people are tired of just hearing about Ma, let's can we
bring other witches, other Connecticut witches in and tell
their stories? And then it grew from there.
And then Mary Beth came in and we had several other people
(16:45):
portraying parts, a few of them one, one of them moved to
Ireland. And as things go, everybody
can't play that part every year.And then Vale joined and being
the director and being on site for a big event like our
cemetery tour evenings where we service like there, there's like
400 to 500 people that come through in the night.
(17:07):
I was never able to portray a witch like I always wanted to
because I have to be outside on site and available for everyone.
But making it a separate event this year made it so that I
could be part of it and actuallyportray someone.
So I was very excited about that.
And this year, like I said, it was totally different.
(17:30):
We moved it to the Old Town Hall, which is a historic town
building, had it on a stage, hadit in a place where instead of
being in a tent where people were sort of some years it was
very uncomfortable for the actors.
They can tell you and for the people whether some years it was
very hot the end of October, some years it was freezing in
(17:51):
the end of October. So having it in a theater
setting made it more comfortable, but it also made it
so that Linda could expand the history and we could tell more
of everyone's story. And I just think that the way we
people will often ask, well, because of the way you're doing
(18:12):
it, is this historically accurate?
And I tell them, yeah, it's as historically accurate as we can
get. But the way we choose to perform
it, we find that people will retain things if you give it to
them in an entertaining way. They remember the details rather
(18:34):
than just sitting at a lecture where they're getting all this
information sort of at them. It's a lot of dates and a lot of
people, and if you hear their stories acted out, it helps
bring the emotion to you and youreally feel them as people.
So what can you tell us about the accused woman that you
(18:56):
portrayed? About Rebecca Rebecca Miss
Rebecca Greensmith, she was great to portray because
basically she was a woman who did not follow her Puritan
rules. She liked to drink and she liked
to party. She was basically making, she
(19:20):
liked to make things alcoholic beverages other than beer,
'cause, you know, beer was a staple for everybody to drink,
so that was acceptable. But making other alcoholic
beverages and actually carousingand merrymaking, which was
against the Puritan religion andbeing out at night around a
bonfire, running around sort of getting drunk with your friends
(19:42):
was not exactly your regular Puritan fair there.
And she was not apologetic to that and she wasn't going to
stop. And she was very in your face
and kind of mouthy and was just,hey, this is, you know who I am.
And in some ways I think though also, especially to the end,
(20:05):
when she was accused and when her time I'm sure was coming
before she was hung. I'm sure that like any human
being, I'm sure a lot of it for me seems like it would have been
armor. It would have been a way to
protect myself with the, oh, I don't care.
And I'll tell you who I marry mewith.
(20:27):
And so she ended up accusing, you know, basically giving up
all the people who were merrymakers with her.
And she gave up her husband because he wasn't doing anything
to clear her name but wanted to make sure that she let him live.
So she sort of took him down with her.
But I think in the end result, she was still a person who had
(20:49):
to have been afraid and scared about what was coming.
And I'm sure she didn't want to die.
Yeah. And Catherine Harrison, Oh my
goodness, that's a like all three of these women were
extraordinary. And I couldn't help but pick up
on you've got the horse affinitywith Mull.
(21:11):
And Catherine, her bees listenedto her and her cattle came too
easily for the people to be comfortable.
But I'm not going to talk about Catherine.
Mary. I want you to tell us about
Catherine. For you, Well, Catherine,
there's probably the most evidence of her case because it
was so well documented. She wrote so much about her
accusations and it's just a welldocumented case, which is great.
(21:36):
It was also a little challenging, I guess, to start
by saying that she's the reason why the things to Winthrop.
It became harder to convict someone of spectral evidence
because two or more people had to witness the same event.
And so that was a good thing. But playing her there was
(21:58):
something. And I think it was in the what
Cynthia Boyden's book where it said that she had talking about
the cattle. She the call was hokunum.
And it was written. I went, what does that mean?
And it's a river. And I'm like, she's just using a
different phrase to call her animals.
I live on a horse farm, so I know when you call your animals
(22:19):
and she just used something different that nobody used.
And so people are saying that's weird.
I could see the Puritans lookingfor stuff with her, looking for
ways to accuse her. And so I kind of played into
that when I started doing the part using that call.
And. Really calling it out in the
production, that was fun. But I think all of these women
(22:42):
had to be a bit saucy, independent in their spirit and
willing to go up against the norms.
And I admire that in them a lot.And even if it could mean a
death sentence. But they were spunky and stossy
and spicy. And yeah, I think and the reason
(23:04):
she was, she really didn't face any.
There was the accusation of being a fortune teller when she
was starting Rebecca, but I think it mainly happened after
her husband died and she was alone and she didn't want to
remarry and she didn't have any male heirs.
So they knew that they could gether property if they could get
(23:30):
in her estate and everything. She her business if they could
accuse her of something. And her first court documents
did read when she started going to court was for her daughters.
Her husband left her with the estate, but he left, I forget
like maybe 1000 lbs to each of his, her daughters.
And she didn't want that. She wanted more to go to a
daughter's and she tried to fix that.
(23:52):
And so that's where the court documents started with her is
interesting. So that kind of drew a light to
her I think as well. But she's a great character.
She's really fun play. I like playing her spunky and
very confident in who she was type of thing.
Yeah. She's a great character and
(24:14):
she's so fortunate that John Winthrop Junior was in place at
the time and that he had good friends like Gershom Bulkley, a
minister to help him sort these things out.
And but she's still she gets banished and they try to run her
out of the town where she goes Spanish to she has she goes to.
(24:35):
I traced her to New York and to Stamford, CT, but was part of
the Westchester and there was her daughter.
I I think it's in the Bronx. I have to do a little more
research there. He's mentioned she married
someone in the Episcopal Church there.
Yeah. So it's interesting.
But she did get in more trouble over there too, because she's
(24:59):
outspoken. She just, she saw some she
didn't feel was fair. And with what's happening, she
was very. She was an entrepreneur.
And she knew how to make money and take care of herself.
So I found that interesting. And Linda, you brought.
These two other accused witches into Maul's story.
(25:21):
I know, I know, there wasn't like a huge selection, but how
did you pick them? And also what?
I guess I want to know and I fail.
I want to hear about Alan. Very much so, too.
But since we're right in the mixon these ladies, GAIL, what was
it like? Your creative vision.
How did it come out with these ladies?
(25:43):
Well, I wanted. To concentrate on the 16 years
where we had hangings. But I also had to bring in the
John Winthrop junior piece and the Gershwin buckler and also
make a contrast in 1692 between the witch panic in Stamford, CT
(26:04):
as opposed to Salem, MA, becausethe differences are stark.
And so there's a lot of stuff. I picked Rebecca because Rebecca
was the linchpin in the Hartfordwitch panic and she brought in
(26:25):
Notion, not only talked about herself, Rebecca, but she talked
about the others, how they were involved, how they got accused,
which was Anne Cole, whose visions were validated by
Increase Mather. And which is really quite
important when you look at the whole story because Increase
(26:47):
Mather validated and Cole and all of the people that she came
up with and her visions were accused.
Now that was reinforced by Rebecca, but nevertheless,
Increase Mather was instrumental.
He was also instrumental in the Salem witch trials because the
(27:09):
sly old fox, when he started seeing things go South with
Salem, he turned around and instead of endorsing spectral
evidence and all the things thathe had endorsed with the
Hartford witch panic, Increase did the case of conscience and
said maybe we shouldn't quite listen to spectral evidence.
(27:31):
You know, the devil is controlling that.
What a fox. He's one of my favorites.
But Catherine doesn't just coverCatherine.
Catherine also talks about Elizabeth Godman.
She also talks about goody garlic from East Hampton.
She also talks about the Flying Witch of Hartford, which is
(27:53):
Elizabeth Theger and and Catherine does a wonderful job
explaining their stories and what was said about them.
So through these three characters and then with Vale,
with the Thomas Allen. So I've got a convicted witch,
which is Rebecca. I've got an accused witch that
gets away. And what Thomas does is cover
(28:16):
seven of the people who were hang in a very short period of
time from 1647 to 16. 50. 4 And he was in Windsor at that time.
Thomas Allen is the one who accused Lydia Gilbert.
(28:36):
And so he, I wanted to get an accuser's perspective.
What did he go through? What hell did that man go
through to have the crazy ideas that he had in his head?
And Bale does a wonderful job ofthat.
And so that's how through these three characters is how I get
(29:00):
everybody involved. And then I try to fill in the
gaps. But I think in future, I want
them to tell even more about thehistory because I could just
never get over the fact that in the 13 original colonies, all of
the hangings were in Connecticutand Massachusetts.
(29:25):
And it's like, is there something in the water there?
Very well could be. But there were which
accusations? People who were convicted but on
a very small sale. But I wanted to bring in the
history of what was going on. Why did these people come to
Massachusetts, the Great Migration, what was going on in
(29:46):
England? Because these people were
connected. So I had to bring in, of course,
James the First, Charles the First, Charles the Second, and
James the second, because that was the reason we had all the
problems, was what they were doing with the charters and the
witch propaganda that happened during the English Civil War.
(30:08):
So all of this is woven togetherin these stories, and it's a lot
to try to get us through it. A little community production,
but we did it. Sounds amazing.
And Veil, I'd love to hear aboutThomas Allen and what part he
(30:29):
plays in that. Oh, sure, sure.
Well, I'm the guy that really feels that the colonies are
overwhelmed by evil, and I'm a true believer in all the terrors
and pitfalls that witchcraft hashappened to the communities.
The idea of getting into troublewas so easy in some ways.
One, if you were a woman and needed to make a potion and
(30:52):
maybe help your family with health issues, you would deal
with the Native Americans cause some of the English plants
didn't translate to New England.So connecting with that was
looked upon as dealing with witches and or evil.
Also if you were exchanging gunswith the French or others that
(31:12):
again was looked at you're working with Satan.
So those two things are very easy to get in trouble with.
One that got me the most was when I was in.
They all know this, But when I was in the militia, I was
standing there normally and my gun fell out of my hands.
It went off and killed poor Henry Stiles.
Everybody saw it. It just seemed rather normal.
(31:35):
But you know, things changed after three years.
I was fined. I was given probation and
accidental murder charges, and yet three years later it was
discovered that Henry Stiles, housekeeper, had cursed him the
day before he went off to that militia event.
(31:56):
And then it all came together and I went right along with
this. Of course she cursed my gun.
Of course she's guilty of this hating her Master in a sense at
his house. And I'm perfectly fine with
this. And so were a lot of other
people that actually can trial conviction hanging after all
(32:19):
that time. And again, eyewitnesses that
were there just thought it was an accident.
As Linda said, I condemn many ofthe witchcraft acts.
I feel they're penetrating the community and we're out of
control in many ways. And so I'm rather convincing and
getting angry anger at mall and it turns out that she's, well, a
(32:42):
witch, so to speak, that I'm talking to all along.
And I real shocks that I've kindof exposed myself my hatred to
her when she is sympathetic and compassionate towards witches.
But it seemed to work out and meaning my character.
You know, as Linda said, I kind of got into it and I enjoyed it
and it's a wonderful piece of history that Lori and Linda and
(33:06):
Mary Elizabeth all, we all kind of put this together that made
that part of Connecticut historyvery vivid through this
production, which I thought was wonderful.
So that helps a little bit. Any questions for me as far as
Thomas Allen at all? But I'm the male guy that comes
in and stirs the pot quite a bit.
But it's all very, very real history.
(33:28):
Extraordinary I mean there was many more people I accused of
and I was quite, quite a difficult guy.
But the park itself was a lot offun because you could take it to
different levels and then show the fear validated often fear of
what the climate was epidemics, wild animals, Indians be really
(33:51):
that community that especially in Windsor, far western
Connecticut was highly dangerousand scary to live in at that
time. So it was a matter of survival,
panic, no leadership when Winsorwas away.
So there was quite a lot going on that fed on itself.
And I believe that, well, I think we all sort of set the
(34:13):
mood of what that era was like, and I'm glad it came together
with a big effort. But definitely the community
seemed to enjoy it, which is great.
That's the whole idea, to educate the community and
express the good, bad and ugly of what happens in our state
sometimes. Thanks so much fam.
Linda, is there anything else about?
(34:37):
The way this. Story, the structure and the
message to the community that you want to make sure that we
know you've done such a great all of you today.
You've done such a great job of reminding us of the complexities
of the Connecticut history. It's, it's such a wonderful
history, even though it has this, these sad stories in it.
(34:58):
But I would love to hear anything else you want us to
know about the community receiving the story and the
messaging that you wanted them to get the Puritans.
The way they went after their own.
The fear. Why was there so much fear?
And it was because of the way Connecticut and Massachusetts
(35:21):
were founded and the people who founded it, they didn't come for
religious tolerance at all. They came for complete and utter
conformity. And if you didn't conform, you
were banished. And that's why they came over.
I mean, they're very different from the Pilgrims of 1620 who
are isolationist. These were people who are very
(35:44):
connected to England. These were English Yeoman.
So this is a solid middle class of people and I think people
wonder why did all of the witchcraft stuff started in the
Connecticut River Valley. When you see the difference
between the harshness of the Connecticut River Valley, which
(36:06):
was called the Wilderness, and you compare that to the Mass Bay
Seashore, there is quite a big difference.
They were also neglected as a colony.
There was so much going on in England.
You know the reason they came. Over was because of King Charles
the first dissolved Parliament and they thought that England
(36:29):
was going to be the end of days.It was June, so they were going
to start to their colony in Massachusetts, the second coming
of Christ. So these are really dedicated
people and when you have that kind of conformity, you're going
(36:49):
to have problems. And then when you start using
witch propaganda, which they didin the Civil War, it's a powder
keg. And that powder keg went off in
Windsor, CT and it was palpable.So it's a.
Call for. Religious freedom of.
(37:11):
Being. Able to speak your mind, be able
to express yourself. And it's a testament to freedom,
freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the hallmarks of what
the fundamental orders were actually all about, which is
(37:31):
what they were spearheading. The irony is that the
fundamental orders were there was the beginning of democracy,
and yet they were anything but democratic.
And so many of their, at least the ministers were not
Democrats. So yeah, it's hailing democracy,
(37:52):
it's hailing freedom, it's hailing religious freedom.
I sort. Of like the.
Part of the ending, where we allpay tribute to the lives of the
witches. Long overdue, of course, but
it's rather solemn, it's meaningful.
And it puts a human face on them, frankly, that everybody
needs to realize these are women.
(38:12):
These are terrified of what their neighbors are thinking.
And the mood is no, no pun intended, wicked.
And I mentioned with Lori Anne at the end, she's scared.
She didn't want to die. So she's very human to the
audience as this progresses. And I thought that was very
important. And the tribute at the end is
very, very well, well, nicely done.
(38:34):
We have. The ring of the bells for whom
the bell tolls. And we told for each of the 11
victims in Connecticut. And of course, I got that idea.
I'm from New York City. I was down at 911.
And that's what was done for thepeople who died at 911.
And so we have our own bell ringing for the 11 victims in
(38:58):
Connecticut. And not just women.
Men too. Nathaniel was one of the people
who was hung. Yeah, 2.
Men. Oh yeah, to flee.
Good to remember. And to John and Joan.
Carrington. It's so important to.
Remember that there were people who were just like us.
(39:18):
They weren't some kind of strange, you know, cave people
or something weird. We think of them as being so
rustic and not as sophisticated as we were, but they had the
exact same emotions and feelingsand attitudes that we have, and
the same foibles and mistakes were made, definitely.
(39:42):
So it's important to realize they're all human beings, and
this was just a colossal injustice done by human beings
to other humans. Yeah, very.
I think many of the. Witches, the cunning women, the
white witches of thousands and thousands of years, were people
(40:02):
who had psychic abilities, telepathic abilities, healing
abilities. These were people who had
extraordinary gifts that were used by the community and
cherished by the community and that started to be threatened
with the Malia Smile of Akar in the 1480s and also by King James
the First, who started because Elizabeth had a witch in her
(40:27):
administration. Elizabeth the First, she had
John Dee, who was her own personal Merlin who invented The
Conjuring language for witches, which is the Enochian language.
So clearly there was a shift in how people started viewing
cunning women. Having a white witch in your
(40:47):
village was best thing you couldhave.
As we say in the production, it's like having AIADT and a
Ring doorbell all in one. If you had your own White Witch,
of course that. Concept.
Was during the civil war was taboo.
(41:08):
You had to get rid of all the witches go down bad.
Thank you. So much.
Is there anything else that any of you would like to share today
before we close out the idea of promoting this?
Education, the awareness of history, I always think that's
fascinating. A bit of a history buff.
Civil War mostly, but this era really came to life for me and I
(41:32):
would love to expand the historyof various good bad in the
different periods in American history were quite a mix, I must
say. But it is enlightening and very
important to see or see just things that went wrong and
remedied to a degree or recognized that we are still a
civilized people that that has compassion how many 300 years
(41:54):
later. And that's important to me as
far as growth and human understanding.
Any thought? I do.
I think it's important to recount like they all.
Said. Moments in history because we
have a terrible way of repeatingthings in history.
(42:15):
And I think it's. Important the more we expose
different events that happen andpeople can be like, huh, that's.
Interesting. I see, you know, and maybe
there's less of a chance of it repeating itself the more we
expose it. That's I'm going to say I think.
That's a very. Important point we had, I was
(42:36):
amazed that we had so many youngpeople come to our event and I
was really happy about that because I don't think they get
enough of history in school anymore.
And a lot of that has to do withtesting what the school
districts, what as a country, wethink it's sciences were behind
(42:57):
apparently on sciences and math.And it's more important for them
to have all of the time to get these things in.
But they're losing out on learning about where we all came
from and the stories that came before them.
And like Mary Beth said, if you don't know where you've come
(43:18):
from, then you're doomed to repeat the, the mistakes over
and over again because no one's teaching you what the mistakes
were. And I think people think that
there's this concept that, oh, well, we'll never do stuff like
that again. But I don't know.
I think that that you see the way the oh, and now I think that
(43:38):
we're really close to that again.
We're just forgetting the thingsthat happened in the past and
we're not teaching anybody that.And there are some really good
things we've done in the past and there's some really terrible
things that we've done in the past, but all of that needs to
be understood by everyone. And I think we're losing that.
So I was glad those young peoplewere there and they were so
(44:01):
interested in the subject and they said they didn't realize
that only of this happened. And I think that's one of the
reasons why, especially for our.Organization and for.
The Glebe House, that's one of the ways I like to talk about
history, is making sure the stories are coming alive for
people because that's how it's Ifeel like it's a lot.
(44:24):
It's easier for them to absorb it and learn it because how many
times can people go? Through the lines.
Of a movie that they love and tell you every line in the movie
and if you get them the story that way, you have a shot that
we're going to remember it. That we're remembering a lot
from what? We gave them and I think that's
(44:45):
really important, so I'm happy presented this.
Oh, can't wait to do it again. The thing that.
Sticks out to me was the difference between increase in
cost and rather and John Winthrop Junior.
All three were extraordinary men, extraordinary minds and
(45:09):
well educated. But when you look at the
difference between the beehive mindset of the Mathers compared
to the flexible mind of WinthropJunior, not his father, but
Winthrop Junior, and you see howbrilliant he really.
(45:29):
Is and he does not. Have a beehive mind.
He has a flexible mind and he can't look at all different
angles of the same thing and come up with win win solutions.
Instead of increase matters, winlow solutions.
To me, that is the lesson of allof this.
(45:50):
The favorite thing that I've hadto with all the productions was
when Maul's descendants came up and gave me a big hug after
Mike. Before that, I liked a lot.
I have one quick story. Very quick, the cruise bill was
mentioned, Arthur Miller and thepanic in that book.
I went to a lecture about the blacklisting McCarthy era in New
(46:12):
York City and they spoke about it.
And that's what it relates to, this kind of behavior, panic
behavior. So it was a good lecture.
Everybody was about to leave. And then they said any more
questions? And this person got up and said
that man ruined my life. And I could just see any of
these witches in the middle of the town square that this
(46:33):
happened to them and said, you villagers ruined my life.
And that brought it home for me as a very personal thing to
happen to any of them, or all ofthem anyway.
It's a good lecture. Yeah.
Thank you all so much. Did you have something?
(46:53):
To add Dorianne, yeah, I was just.
Going to add something interesting that I did
yesterday. I actually watched the movie The
Witch again and watching it really last night, just going
through it really made it real. I watched a program where the
director talked about that. He wanted people to take it
(47:16):
literally because he's telling it as a folk tale, although he
had actual information and Diaries and things that he was
going off of. But what's real to me is when
you look at just the the concepts through it of the
father and the mother and their fear and how afraid they are of
(47:39):
all these different concepts andhow real that they believe all
these things to be. How real they believe that there
are entities out there in the woods that are out to get them
and that they can't break that threshold and that if they do,
something bad's going to happen.And how real they believe that
(48:00):
the devil's going to use animalsto talk to them and to turn
their mind. And just how afraid they were of
everything they didn't understand in the natural world
was just came down to it being the devil and that was it.
And I can't even imagine living with that type of mindset and
(48:22):
fear that everything that is unknown is evil.
We really love to. Bring local and community
discussions to our podcasts. Thank you, Connecticut, for
telling the stories of your witch hunts.
Be sure to check out the Glebe House.
Visit. Glebehousemuseum.org For more
(48:43):
information on the museum and onevents.
And have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to the thing about witchhunts.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today you're going to hear from the creative team behind Ground
0 Witchcraft in Connecticut thatis produced for the community of
Woodbury, CT. Joining us are Linda Bargale,
Mary Beth Cummings, H Vale Barrett and Laurie Ann Witt.
(00:23):
They created something really special, a groundbreaking
theatrical presentation for Glebe House Museum's 100th
anniversary. This project has quite a
history. It all started with Linda's
years long portrayal of Malt Gramer, a woman accused of
witchcraft and expelled from Woodbury.
(00:45):
And it's grown significantly over time.
It evolved from popular cemeterytours to a one woman show to a
full theatrical production. The performance brought together
4 historical figures, Moll Cramer, Thomas Allen, Rebecca
Greensmith and Catherine Harrison.
Let's chat about this amazing effort.
(01:06):
Hello everybody, welcome to The Thing about Witch Hunts
podcasts. Today we have special guests
from the Woodbury Glebe House Ground Zero production
Witchcraft in Connecticut. Please introduce yourselves,
Vale. Barrett from Bridgewater, CT
This is the second event I've done with the Glebe House and I
(01:27):
found it very educational and a lot of fun.
Mary Elizabeth Cummings from Morris, CT I've been playing
gosh, Katherine Harris, a woman accused of witchcraft in 1666,
for five years now. Linda, I'm not sure, but yeah,
in in the Glebe House production.
(01:48):
Yeah. And Linda?
Gale I've been playing Mall Kramer, The Witch of Woodbury
for about 13 years and I have been writing the productions for
Connecticut Witches and The Witch of Woodbury.
I'm Laurie Ann Witt and I am thedirector of the Glebe House
(02:10):
Museum in Woodbury, CT. I'm also from Woodbury and I
also portrayed Rebecca Greensmith who was an accused
witch and she was also hanged for witchcraft.
Thank you all so much. What background do you want our
audience to know about the GlebeHouse?
(02:31):
The Glebe House Museum Man Gertridge Eagle Garden in
Woodbury, CT is a Revolutionary War historic house museum.
Our interpretation time is 1771 to 1786, during the time of the
American Revolution, although the house was built between 1740
and 1750. It's a Georgian colonial.
(02:55):
It's very unique in its architecture.
It's a salt box mixed with a gambrel style, which is very,
very different in New England. We get a lot of architecture
students who come to see our house.
We do tours, we do educational programs.
We have programs for adults and children, workshops, and we do a
(03:16):
lot of special events like the Ground Zero that we just
produced, as well as being knownas the birth place of the
American Episcopal Church, or for, you know, common knowledge,
the Anglican Church as it used to be called.
And very important events happened there for the
(03:36):
separation of church and state. This is so wonderful.
I'm so excited to have you guys here today.
It's really important to us to be able to get into the
communities and talk to those who are telling the stories of
history, and you guys have put together something so special
(03:58):
and so important. So thank you for that.
Let's start with finding out a little bit about Mal Kramer.
Who is Mal Kramer? Mal Kramer was a woman who lived
in Woodbury, CT approximately between 1750 and 1812 and she
(04:21):
was married to the local blacksmith.
And there is all kinds of stories and legends surrounding
Mall which were fascinating to me to 1st hear about her.
And the stories that seem to continue from person to person
(04:42):
are about Mall's affinity for horses.
She used to race horses and was,I guess you would say a horse
whisperer. It was also she had an affinity
for certain plants, one of whichwas raspberries.
Wild raspberries used to always grow around wherever Mall lived
(05:03):
and they were enormous. And so I thought, well, that's
different. And she apparently was.
There were variety of stories. The original ones talk about a
conflict that she had with her husband.
Some say that he couldn't do hisblacksmith work well because
(05:29):
Moll used to disturb him every time she walked into the bar and
the horseshoes would fly off thehorses.
And because I figured she was a witch.
Another one was that Moll that her husband also raced horses
and he would lose to Mall. Therefore he resented Mall and
(05:49):
all of these things dealing withiron and all of that, and that
he felt that she was a witch because of her effect on iron
and horseshoes and all of that. There also was an association
between Mall and a local pig farmer in that mall was accused
(06:12):
of killing him and all of his pics.
She went to his farm one day andthey had a heated discussion.
He would not sell her any pork. She cursed him and left and
shortly thereafter his pigs started dying and then within a
(06:34):
week the farmer was also dead. And of course that led to Mall
being banished from Woodbury. And.
But it's interesting how the story evolved.
You hear a lot about her husbandbanishing her because of his
(06:58):
dissatisfaction and the hindering of his work, but that
doesn't really hold water when you look at it because she not
only she was banished from her home, but her little son was
also banished. And of course there is a lot of
(07:21):
guilt by association in Connecticut.
You see that throughout the different witch stories.
If you are a friend of family, of a accused witch, you can
easily get that rubbed off on yourselves.
Mary Staples, for example. I mean, there's so many which we
bring out in the production. It seems like the town was very
(07:44):
guilty about what they had done,that they had banished a woman
and her son to the outskirts of Woodbury and she became an
extortionist. She was known to have fiery red
hair and she had a very bad temper.
And she doesn't seem like the meek kind of character that some
(08:09):
of them portray her as. She seems like a very bold, in
your face kind of woman. And she did go back down to the
town and extort money and food and supplies.
And eventually she got enough totake her son and herself away.
(08:30):
We think she went to New York State to get away so her son
could have a normal life. He certainly couldn't have a
normal life in Woodbury. And over time, I think the
people of Woodbury were very embarrassed about what they had
done. And so the story switched to her
husband threw her out. But as I said, that doesn't
(08:53):
really hold water. She didn't put a curse on the
town. Before she left, she said that
Woodbury would get some of the worst Thunder and lightning
storms in Litchfield County. And some agree that the curse
worked because we get some whoppers here in Woodbury.
(09:14):
So that is a nutshell. Mall Kramer.
I've met her descendants so I know she lived.
Some people had a legend that she died and her son died of
exposure but she did not becauseher descendants have contacted
me and I've spoken with them. I've also visited her house
(09:37):
where she lived with her husband, which he had inherited
and generations of his family had lived there so he can see
why he didn't leave with her. He had his business.
He had a multi generational household and which still
exists. I went through it.
So where she lived it was reallyquite wonderful.
(10:01):
Where she was banished to was the top of the hill.
We live in the Litchfield Hills so being on top of the hill is
not a hard thing. But the road is called Tofet and
Tofet is from the Bible. It means hell or the devil.
So say put her on Hell Rd. and avery famous writer also lived.
(10:25):
We have a lot of celebrities that live in the Woodbury area.
And so she lived on the same Rd.eventually decades later as
Arthur Miller who wrote The Crucible.
So Mall and Arthur have something in common.
They both lived on Tophet Road. So it's a fascinating story.
(10:48):
I keep on trying to find out newthings about Mall all the time.
That's it. And I'm not sure.
Great. Thank you.
That's an amazing story. Some of the elements remind me
of some other Connecticut witch trial stories and other New
England stories that it involvesthis extraordinary person by all
(11:11):
accounts. And she might be a little
quarrelsome or, you know, peoplethink that she's a too upfront,
that kind of story. When did Tales of Mal Kramer
first appear in writing? I think in 1872, with the
History of Ancient Woodbury withWilliam Cawthorne, he wrote
(11:34):
about her in that and he had herhusband threw her out kind of
thing. But also the other little
tidbits, the affinity for horses, which was really quite
extraordinary. That was the first source that I
went to was Cosmo. The.
Volunteers at the Glebe House are really quite extraordinary,
(11:57):
and many of them have grown up with these stories.
So I basically talked to as manyof the volunteers as I could,
particularly the ones who grew up here.
I did not grow up here at all, so I didn't know any of this
stuff, though. Everything was new to me.
(12:17):
But they had a wealth of knowledge and they were very
critical too, of Mall being meekand just going up and staying in
her shack. No one's going to kick Mall out
of anything. But the banishment was important
because we saw Governor WinthropJunior, he used banishment
(12:39):
rather than hanging. The last which was hanged in
Connecticut was in 1663, and that was Mary Barnes of
Farmington. After that, Winthrop's influence
was the hallmark of the Connecticut which seen in that
he got it, he took down spectralevidence.
(13:02):
He also made it used banishment as the preferred form if there
was a conviction. If there was a conviction, he
made it so the prosecutor had toprove that they were guilty.
So you were a presumed innocent in Connecticut, which made it
very different from Massachusetts later on in the
(13:25):
1690s. So Connecticut started off
badly, very badly, with 11 people killed within a 16 year
period. I mean, there's no doubt about
it. And Connecticut is very ashamed
of that, and many of the recordsare missing for very good
reasons. Thank you so much.
(13:48):
It's such a delight to get to talk about the Connecticut
history today, and I really loveit when these discussions spring
out of art and events and storytelling.
Lori, Ann and Linda How did events for Mall Kramer begin?
(14:11):
Like Linda said she had been playing Mall Kramer.
She's been playing that part forthe past 13 years.
So she's been playing it longer than I've been the director at
the Gleep house. I've been the director this year
for nine years. And when I started, Linda had
already been playing Mall Kramerin the cemetery.
(14:32):
Because like I said, we do, which are upcoming, we do tours
through our cemetery where we tell the stories of the real
people of Woodbury and their history.
And she was playing that part upin the cemetery.
But her part became Maul's storyreally resonates with people and
people loved hearing it. And as Linda's, the amount of
(14:55):
wealth of knowledge that she wasgaining and all the research she
was doing, as this part grows, it becomes to me too big to be
in the cemetery because cemeteryparts, you can't stand there
really for 20 minutes and talk because we've got to move the
groups along. So I came up with this idea when
(15:16):
I started, well, why don't we put mall into?
We have a cottage building that we use for our office.
Why can't she have her own little stand alone show inside
of the cottage? And we'll set it up for seating
and we can have someone watch the door and let groups come in
and Moll can do her thing and talk to everyone and then we'll
(15:40):
just keep feeding people to her that way.
And so her story can get longer.She can do 1/2 an hour instead
of just the little 10 minute blurb.
And then that became so popular and of course we had COVID in
there. So the concept is for people
that we're all going to jam intothis really small room in a
(16:01):
cottage was not a good idea anymore.
I started renting a tent for ourbackyard and putting mall in the
tent. And we would decorate the tent
and have the typical like the things that people expect.
We we usually do as well, like having the bubbling cauldron
with the dry ice in it and the lights and everything.
(16:22):
And Linda came up with the idea of, well, instead of people,
maybe people are tired of just hearing about Ma, let's can we
bring other witches, other Connecticut witches in and tell
their stories? And then it grew from there.
And then Mary Beth came in and we had several other people
(16:45):
portraying parts, a few of them one, one of them moved to
Ireland. And as things go, everybody
can't play that part every year.And then Vale joined and being
the director and being on site for a big event like our
cemetery tour evenings where we service like there, there's like
400 to 500 people that come through in the night.
(17:07):
I was never able to portray a witch like I always wanted to
because I have to be outside on site and available for everyone.
But making it a separate event this year made it so that I
could be part of it and actuallyportray someone.
So I was very excited about that.
And this year, like I said, it was totally different.
(17:30):
We moved it to the Old Town Hall, which is a historic town
building, had it on a stage, hadit in a place where instead of
being in a tent where people were sort of some years it was
very uncomfortable for the actors.
They can tell you and for the people whether some years it was
very hot the end of October, some years it was freezing in
(17:51):
the end of October. So having it in a theater
setting made it more comfortable, but it also made it
so that Linda could expand the history and we could tell more
of everyone's story. And I just think that the way we
people will often ask, well, because of the way you're doing
(18:12):
it, is this historically accurate?
And I tell them, yeah, it's as historically accurate as we can
get. But the way we choose to perform
it, we find that people will retain things if you give it to
them in an entertaining way. They remember the details rather
(18:34):
than just sitting at a lecture where they're getting all this
information sort of at them. It's a lot of dates and a lot of
people, and if you hear their stories acted out, it helps
bring the emotion to you and youreally feel them as people.
So what can you tell us about the accused woman that you
(18:56):
portrayed? About Rebecca Rebecca Miss
Rebecca Greensmith, she was great to portray because
basically she was a woman who did not follow her Puritan
rules. She liked to drink and she liked
to party. She was basically making, she
(19:20):
liked to make things alcoholic beverages other than beer,
'cause, you know, beer was a staple for everybody to drink,
so that was acceptable. But making other alcoholic
beverages and actually carousingand merrymaking, which was
against the Puritan religion andbeing out at night around a
bonfire, running around sort of getting drunk with your friends
(19:42):
was not exactly your regular Puritan fair there.
And she was not apologetic to that and she wasn't going to
stop. And she was very in your face
and kind of mouthy and was just,hey, this is, you know who I am.
And in some ways I think though also, especially to the end,
(20:05):
when she was accused and when her time I'm sure was coming
before she was hung. I'm sure that like any human
being, I'm sure a lot of it for me seems like it would have been
armor. It would have been a way to
protect myself with the, oh, I don't care.
And I'll tell you who I marry mewith.
(20:27):
And so she ended up accusing, you know, basically giving up
all the people who were merrymakers with her.
And she gave up her husband because he wasn't doing anything
to clear her name but wanted to make sure that she let him live.
So she sort of took him down with her.
But I think in the end result, she was still a person who had
(20:49):
to have been afraid and scared about what was coming.
And I'm sure she didn't want to die.
Yeah. And Catherine Harrison, Oh my
goodness, that's a like all three of these women were
extraordinary. And I couldn't help but pick up
on you've got the horse affinitywith Mull.
(21:11):
And Catherine, her bees listenedto her and her cattle came too
easily for the people to be comfortable.
But I'm not going to talk about Catherine.
Mary. I want you to tell us about
Catherine. For you, Well, Catherine,
there's probably the most evidence of her case because it
was so well documented. She wrote so much about her
accusations and it's just a welldocumented case, which is great.
(21:36):
It was also a little challenging, I guess, to start
by saying that she's the reason why the things to Winthrop.
It became harder to convict someone of spectral evidence
because two or more people had to witness the same event.
And so that was a good thing. But playing her there was
(21:58):
something. And I think it was in the what
Cynthia Boyden's book where it said that she had talking about
the cattle. She the call was hokunum.
And it was written. I went, what does that mean?
And it's a river. And I'm like, she's just using a
different phrase to call her animals.
I live on a horse farm, so I know when you call your animals
(22:19):
and she just used something different that nobody used.
And so people are saying that's weird.
I could see the Puritans lookingfor stuff with her, looking for
ways to accuse her. And so I kind of played into
that when I started doing the part using that call.
And. Really calling it out in the
production, that was fun. But I think all of these women
(22:42):
had to be a bit saucy, independent in their spirit and
willing to go up against the norms.
And I admire that in them a lot.And even if it could mean a
death sentence. But they were spunky and stossy
and spicy. And yeah, I think and the reason
(23:04):
she was, she really didn't face any.
There was the accusation of being a fortune teller when she
was starting Rebecca, but I think it mainly happened after
her husband died and she was alone and she didn't want to
remarry and she didn't have any male heirs.
So they knew that they could gether property if they could get
(23:30):
in her estate and everything. She her business if they could
accuse her of something. And her first court documents
did read when she started going to court was for her daughters.
Her husband left her with the estate, but he left, I forget
like maybe 1000 lbs to each of his, her daughters.
And she didn't want that. She wanted more to go to a
daughter's and she tried to fix that.
(23:52):
And so that's where the court documents started with her is
interesting. So that kind of drew a light to
her I think as well. But she's a great character.
She's really fun play. I like playing her spunky and
very confident in who she was type of thing.
Yeah. She's a great character and
(24:14):
she's so fortunate that John Winthrop Junior was in place at
the time and that he had good friends like Gershom Bulkley, a
minister to help him sort these things out.
And but she's still she gets banished and they try to run her
out of the town where she goes Spanish to she has she goes to.
(24:35):
I traced her to New York and to Stamford, CT, but was part of
the Westchester and there was her daughter.
I I think it's in the Bronx. I have to do a little more
research there. He's mentioned she married
someone in the Episcopal Church there.
Yeah. So it's interesting.
But she did get in more trouble over there too, because she's
(24:59):
outspoken. She just, she saw some she
didn't feel was fair. And with what's happening, she
was very. She was an entrepreneur.
And she knew how to make money and take care of herself.
So I found that interesting. And Linda, you brought.
These two other accused witches into Maul's story.
(25:21):
I know, I know, there wasn't like a huge selection, but how
did you pick them? And also what?
I guess I want to know and I fail.
I want to hear about Alan. Very much so, too.
But since we're right in the mixon these ladies, GAIL, what was
it like? Your creative vision.
How did it come out with these ladies?
(25:43):
Well, I wanted. To concentrate on the 16 years
where we had hangings. But I also had to bring in the
John Winthrop junior piece and the Gershwin buckler and also
make a contrast in 1692 between the witch panic in Stamford, CT
(26:04):
as opposed to Salem, MA, becausethe differences are stark.
And so there's a lot of stuff. I picked Rebecca because Rebecca
was the linchpin in the Hartfordwitch panic and she brought in
(26:25):
Notion, not only talked about herself, Rebecca, but she talked
about the others, how they were involved, how they got accused,
which was Anne Cole, whose visions were validated by
Increase Mather. And which is really quite
important when you look at the whole story because Increase
(26:47):
Mather validated and Cole and all of the people that she came
up with and her visions were accused.
Now that was reinforced by Rebecca, but nevertheless,
Increase Mather was instrumental.
He was also instrumental in the Salem witch trials because the
(27:09):
sly old fox, when he started seeing things go South with
Salem, he turned around and instead of endorsing spectral
evidence and all the things thathe had endorsed with the
Hartford witch panic, Increase did the case of conscience and
said maybe we shouldn't quite listen to spectral evidence.
(27:31):
You know, the devil is controlling that.
What a fox. He's one of my favorites.
But Catherine doesn't just coverCatherine.
Catherine also talks about Elizabeth Godman.
She also talks about goody garlic from East Hampton.
She also talks about the Flying Witch of Hartford, which is
(27:53):
Elizabeth Theger and and Catherine does a wonderful job
explaining their stories and what was said about them.
So through these three characters and then with Vale,
with the Thomas Allen. So I've got a convicted witch,
which is Rebecca. I've got an accused witch that
gets away. And what Thomas does is cover
(28:16):
seven of the people who were hang in a very short period of
time from 1647 to 16. 50. 4 And he was in Windsor at that time.
Thomas Allen is the one who accused Lydia Gilbert.
(28:36):
And so he, I wanted to get an accuser's perspective.
What did he go through? What hell did that man go
through to have the crazy ideas that he had in his head?
And Bale does a wonderful job ofthat.
And so that's how through these three characters is how I get
(29:00):
everybody involved. And then I try to fill in the
gaps. But I think in future, I want
them to tell even more about thehistory because I could just
never get over the fact that in the 13 original colonies, all of
the hangings were in Connecticutand Massachusetts.
(29:25):
And it's like, is there something in the water there?
Very well could be. But there were which
accusations? People who were convicted but on
a very small sale. But I wanted to bring in the
history of what was going on. Why did these people come to
Massachusetts, the Great Migration, what was going on in
(29:46):
England? Because these people were
connected. So I had to bring in, of course,
James the First, Charles the First, Charles the Second, and
James the second, because that was the reason we had all the
problems, was what they were doing with the charters and the
witch propaganda that happened during the English Civil War.
(30:08):
So all of this is woven togetherin these stories, and it's a lot
to try to get us through it. A little community production,
but we did it. Sounds amazing.
And Veil, I'd love to hear aboutThomas Allen and what part he
(30:29):
plays in that. Oh, sure, sure.
Well, I'm the guy that really feels that the colonies are
overwhelmed by evil, and I'm a true believer in all the terrors
and pitfalls that witchcraft hashappened to the communities.
The idea of getting into troublewas so easy in some ways.
One, if you were a woman and needed to make a potion and
(30:52):
maybe help your family with health issues, you would deal
with the Native Americans cause some of the English plants
didn't translate to New England.So connecting with that was
looked upon as dealing with witches and or evil.
Also if you were exchanging gunswith the French or others that
(31:12):
again was looked at you're working with Satan.
So those two things are very easy to get in trouble with.
One that got me the most was when I was in.
They all know this, But when I was in the militia, I was
standing there normally and my gun fell out of my hands.
It went off and killed poor Henry Stiles.
Everybody saw it. It just seemed rather normal.
(31:35):
But you know, things changed after three years.
I was fined. I was given probation and
accidental murder charges, and yet three years later it was
discovered that Henry Stiles, housekeeper, had cursed him the
day before he went off to that militia event.
(31:56):
And then it all came together and I went right along with
this. Of course she cursed my gun.
Of course she's guilty of this hating her Master in a sense at
his house. And I'm perfectly fine with
this. And so were a lot of other
people that actually can trial conviction hanging after all
(32:19):
that time. And again, eyewitnesses that
were there just thought it was an accident.
As Linda said, I condemn many ofthe witchcraft acts.
I feel they're penetrating the community and we're out of
control in many ways. And so I'm rather convincing and
getting angry anger at mall and it turns out that she's, well, a
(32:42):
witch, so to speak, that I'm talking to all along.
And I real shocks that I've kindof exposed myself my hatred to
her when she is sympathetic and compassionate towards witches.
But it seemed to work out and meaning my character.
You know, as Linda said, I kind of got into it and I enjoyed it
and it's a wonderful piece of history that Lori and Linda and
(33:06):
Mary Elizabeth all, we all kind of put this together that made
that part of Connecticut historyvery vivid through this
production, which I thought was wonderful.
So that helps a little bit. Any questions for me as far as
Thomas Allen at all? But I'm the male guy that comes
in and stirs the pot quite a bit.
But it's all very, very real history.
(33:28):
Extraordinary I mean there was many more people I accused of
and I was quite, quite a difficult guy.
But the park itself was a lot offun because you could take it to
different levels and then show the fear validated often fear of
what the climate was epidemics, wild animals, Indians be really
(33:51):
that community that especially in Windsor, far western
Connecticut was highly dangerousand scary to live in at that
time. So it was a matter of survival,
panic, no leadership when Winsorwas away.
So there was quite a lot going on that fed on itself.
And I believe that, well, I think we all sort of set the
(34:13):
mood of what that era was like, and I'm glad it came together
with a big effort. But definitely the community
seemed to enjoy it, which is great.
That's the whole idea, to educate the community and
express the good, bad and ugly of what happens in our state
sometimes. Thanks so much fam.
Linda, is there anything else about?
(34:37):
The way this. Story, the structure and the
message to the community that you want to make sure that we
know you've done such a great all of you today.
You've done such a great job of reminding us of the complexities
of the Connecticut history. It's, it's such a wonderful
history, even though it has this, these sad stories in it.
(34:58):
But I would love to hear anything else you want us to
know about the community receiving the story and the
messaging that you wanted them to get the Puritans.
The way they went after their own.
The fear. Why was there so much fear?
And it was because of the way Connecticut and Massachusetts
(35:21):
were founded and the people who founded it, they didn't come for
religious tolerance at all. They came for complete and utter
conformity. And if you didn't conform, you
were banished. And that's why they came over.
I mean, they're very different from the Pilgrims of 1620 who
are isolationist. These were people who are very
(35:44):
connected to England. These were English Yeoman.
So this is a solid middle class of people and I think people
wonder why did all of the witchcraft stuff started in the
Connecticut River Valley. When you see the difference
between the harshness of the Connecticut River Valley, which
(36:06):
was called the Wilderness, and you compare that to the Mass Bay
Seashore, there is quite a big difference.
They were also neglected as a colony.
There was so much going on in England.
You know the reason they came. Over was because of King Charles
the first dissolved Parliament and they thought that England
(36:29):
was going to be the end of days.It was June, so they were going
to start to their colony in Massachusetts, the second coming
of Christ. So these are really dedicated
people and when you have that kind of conformity, you're going
(36:49):
to have problems. And then when you start using
witch propaganda, which they didin the Civil War, it's a powder
keg. And that powder keg went off in
Windsor, CT and it was palpable.So it's a.
Call for. Religious freedom of.
(37:11):
Being. Able to speak your mind, be able
to express yourself. And it's a testament to freedom,
freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the hallmarks of what
the fundamental orders were actually all about, which is
(37:31):
what they were spearheading. The irony is that the
fundamental orders were there was the beginning of democracy,
and yet they were anything but democratic.
And so many of their, at least the ministers were not
Democrats. So yeah, it's hailing democracy,
(37:52):
it's hailing freedom, it's hailing religious freedom.
I sort. Of like the.
Part of the ending, where we allpay tribute to the lives of the
witches. Long overdue, of course, but
it's rather solemn, it's meaningful.
And it puts a human face on them, frankly, that everybody
needs to realize these are women.
(38:12):
These are terrified of what their neighbors are thinking.
And the mood is no, no pun intended, wicked.
And I mentioned with Lori Anne at the end, she's scared.
She didn't want to die. So she's very human to the
audience as this progresses. And I thought that was very
important. And the tribute at the end is
very, very well, well, nicely done.
(38:34):
We have. The ring of the bells for whom
the bell tolls. And we told for each of the 11
victims in Connecticut. And of course, I got that idea.
I'm from New York City. I was down at 911.
And that's what was done for thepeople who died at 911.
And so we have our own bell ringing for the 11 victims in
(38:58):
Connecticut. And not just women.
Men too. Nathaniel was one of the people
who was hung. Yeah, 2.
Men. Oh yeah, to flee.
Good to remember. And to John and Joan.
Carrington. It's so important to.
Remember that there were people who were just like us.
(39:18):
They weren't some kind of strange, you know, cave people
or something weird. We think of them as being so
rustic and not as sophisticated as we were, but they had the
exact same emotions and feelingsand attitudes that we have, and
the same foibles and mistakes were made, definitely.
(39:42):
So it's important to realize they're all human beings, and
this was just a colossal injustice done by human beings
to other humans. Yeah, very.
I think many of the. Witches, the cunning women, the
white witches of thousands and thousands of years, were people
(40:02):
who had psychic abilities, telepathic abilities, healing
abilities. These were people who had
extraordinary gifts that were used by the community and
cherished by the community and that started to be threatened
with the Malia Smile of Akar in the 1480s and also by King James
the First, who started because Elizabeth had a witch in her
(40:27):
administration. Elizabeth the First, she had
John Dee, who was her own personal Merlin who invented The
Conjuring language for witches, which is the Enochian language.
So clearly there was a shift in how people started viewing
cunning women. Having a white witch in your
(40:47):
village was best thing you couldhave.
As we say in the production, it's like having AIADT and a
Ring doorbell all in one. If you had your own White Witch,
of course that. Concept.
Was during the civil war was taboo.
(41:08):
You had to get rid of all the witches go down bad.
Thank you. So much.
Is there anything else that any of you would like to share today
before we close out the idea of promoting this?
Education, the awareness of history, I always think that's
fascinating. A bit of a history buff.
Civil War mostly, but this era really came to life for me and I
(41:32):
would love to expand the historyof various good bad in the
different periods in American history were quite a mix, I must
say. But it is enlightening and very
important to see or see just things that went wrong and
remedied to a degree or recognized that we are still a
civilized people that that has compassion how many 300 years
(41:54):
later. And that's important to me as
far as growth and human understanding.
Any thought? I do.
I think it's important to recount like they all.
Said. Moments in history because we
have a terrible way of repeatingthings in history.
(42:15):
And I think it's. Important the more we expose
different events that happen andpeople can be like, huh, that's.
Interesting. I see, you know, and maybe
there's less of a chance of it repeating itself the more we
expose it. That's I'm going to say I think.
That's a very. Important point we had, I was
(42:36):
amazed that we had so many youngpeople come to our event and I
was really happy about that because I don't think they get
enough of history in school anymore.
And a lot of that has to do withtesting what the school
districts, what as a country, wethink it's sciences were behind
(42:57):
apparently on sciences and math.And it's more important for them
to have all of the time to get these things in.
But they're losing out on learning about where we all came
from and the stories that came before them.
And like Mary Beth said, if you don't know where you've come
(43:18):
from, then you're doomed to repeat the, the mistakes over
and over again because no one's teaching you what the mistakes
were. And I think people think that
there's this concept that, oh, well, we'll never do stuff like
that again. But I don't know.
I think that that you see the way the oh, and now I think that
(43:38):
we're really close to that again.
We're just forgetting the thingsthat happened in the past and
we're not teaching anybody that.And there are some really good
things we've done in the past and there's some really terrible
things that we've done in the past, but all of that needs to
be understood by everyone. And I think we're losing that.
So I was glad those young peoplewere there and they were so
(44:01):
interested in the subject and they said they didn't realize
that only of this happened. And I think that's one of the
reasons why, especially for our.Organization and for.
The Glebe House, that's one of the ways I like to talk about
history, is making sure the stories are coming alive for
people because that's how it's Ifeel like it's a lot.
(44:24):
It's easier for them to absorb it and learn it because how many
times can people go? Through the lines.
Of a movie that they love and tell you every line in the movie
and if you get them the story that way, you have a shot that
we're going to remember it. That we're remembering a lot
from what? We gave them and I think that's
(44:45):
really important, so I'm happy presented this.
Oh, can't wait to do it again. The thing that.
Sticks out to me was the difference between increase in
cost and rather and John Winthrop Junior.
All three were extraordinary men, extraordinary minds and
(45:09):
well educated. But when you look at the
difference between the beehive mindset of the Mathers compared
to the flexible mind of WinthropJunior, not his father, but
Winthrop Junior, and you see howbrilliant he really.
(45:29):
Is and he does not. Have a beehive mind.
He has a flexible mind and he can't look at all different
angles of the same thing and come up with win win solutions.
Instead of increase matters, winlow solutions.
To me, that is the lesson of allof this.
(45:50):
The favorite thing that I've hadto with all the productions was
when Maul's descendants came up and gave me a big hug after
Mike. Before that, I liked a lot.
I have one quick story. Very quick, the cruise bill was
mentioned, Arthur Miller and thepanic in that book.
I went to a lecture about the blacklisting McCarthy era in New
(46:12):
York City and they spoke about it.
And that's what it relates to, this kind of behavior, panic
behavior. So it was a good lecture.
Everybody was about to leave. And then they said any more
questions? And this person got up and said
that man ruined my life. And I could just see any of
these witches in the middle of the town square that this
(46:33):
happened to them and said, you villagers ruined my life.
And that brought it home for me as a very personal thing to
happen to any of them, or all ofthem anyway.
It's a good lecture. Yeah.
Thank you all so much. Did you have something?
(46:53):
To add Dorianne, yeah, I was just.
Going to add something interesting that I did
yesterday. I actually watched the movie The
Witch again and watching it really last night, just going
through it really made it real. I watched a program where the
director talked about that. He wanted people to take it
(47:16):
literally because he's telling it as a folk tale, although he
had actual information and Diaries and things that he was
going off of. But what's real to me is when
you look at just the the concepts through it of the
father and the mother and their fear and how afraid they are of
(47:39):
all these different concepts andhow real that they believe all
these things to be. How real they believe that there
are entities out there in the woods that are out to get them
and that they can't break that threshold and that if they do,
something bad's going to happen.And how real they believe that
(48:00):
the devil's going to use animalsto talk to them and to turn
their mind. And just how afraid they were of
everything they didn't understand in the natural world
was just came down to it being the devil and that was it.
And I can't even imagine living with that type of mindset and
(48:22):
fear that everything that is unknown is evil.
We really love to. Bring local and community
discussions to our podcasts. Thank you, Connecticut, for
telling the stories of your witch hunts.
Be sure to check out the Glebe House.
Visit. Glebehousemuseum.org For more
(48:43):
information on the museum and onevents.
And have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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