February 5, 2025 • 40 mins
How did geography shape the Salem Witch Trials?
Join returning guest, author, and Salem Witch Trials expert Marilynne K. Roach as she maps the physical landscape of colonial Massachusetts where witch accusations spread in 1692. From the newly identified execution site at Procter's Ledge to the tense boundary between Salem Village and Salem Tow. Discover if property disputes and travel routes fueled America's most notorious witch hunt. Through modern research and historical maps, uncover why location mattered in this dark chapter of New England history.
Records of the Salem Witch Hunt by Bernard Rosenthal
The Salem Witch Trials: A Day-By-Day Chronicle of a Community Under Siege by Marilynne K. Roach
Purchase Button: Massachusetts Witch Hunt Justice Project
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast of the witch Trials.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today, we're exploring how geography shaped one of
history's most notorious witch hunts.
When we examine the Salem Witch trials, we often focus on the
key players and timeline of events.
But another crucial element deserves our attention, the
(00:21):
physical landscape where these events unfolded.
Our guest today, acclaimed historian Marilyn K Roach, has
spent decades mapping and studying the geography of the
1692 witch trials. Her meticulous research has
helped identify crucial locations, including the
execution site at Proctor's Ledge.
(00:42):
Through her work with the Gallows Hill Project and
creation of detailed historical maps, Roach shows us how
property disputes, boundary lines and travel distances
played vital roles in shaping accusations and their spread.
From rural Salem village to the bustling port town of Salem
itself, and as far off as Maine,each location tells part of this
(01:04):
complex story. Understanding these spaces helps
us grasp how fear and suspicion moved through colonial New
England communities. In our conversation, Roach
shares insights from her groundbreaking research while
reminding us that these historical spaces continue to
resonate with meaning today. So join us as we explore the
geography of fear with Marilyn KRoach.
(01:27):
Today we are going to consider the space and people of the
Salem Witch Trials. It's a pleasure to welcome back
Marilyn Roach, acclaimed historian and author of the
Salem Witch Trials, a day by daychronicle of a community under
siege, to the Witch Hunt podcast.
Thank you for all your contributions to the remembrance
of the Salem Witch Trials. Thank you for inviting me.
(01:51):
Thank you. And how did the geography of
Salem contribute to the spread of the witch hunt?
Because the panic started in Salem Village, which was on the
rural side of town, a good wastefrom a port, but most of the
money was the government. It's out in the boonage far as
(02:13):
other people concerned, it spread within the family and
once it seemed that it was something that needed to be
looked at by the law and they started holding hearing.
The magistrates came out from Salem to Salem village determine
when was not going on to see if anybody should be questioned or
(02:35):
obliged to stay for trial later.They couldn't do it later.
That alerts the rest of the townand I imagine because the
lichens were supposed to be which went on for almost a month
really it was known in the area full area, not just Salem, but
taking this town too. So it was breaking news and
(02:59):
juicy gossip. But once it's deemed that there
was a with the conspiracy to worry about because we're
teachable with that making she made-up a story that they would
accept, which sounded to them like a confession because every
time she said she wasn't the witch, they would rape it.
(03:21):
Then she mentioned that there were others, 9 I think, but they
knew the three they'd arrested, including the cheaper Sarah
Osborne. Sarah Good.
Then people were left wondering who were the others and how
many. And in fact, for what's called
confession, describe our spectors coming in Boston.
(03:43):
So it's down a lot bigger than what they first feared, and it's
sort of a pause for a couple of weeks or another arrest.
But people are wondering who else in the neighborhood is up
to no good devil. And that's presumably they spent
a couple of weeks bashing over who they didn't like and who
(04:05):
unlike respect and all sorts of people who had had run insurance
with their neighbors and in other towns too, or at least
thought of them. There was a woman in Ipswich,
Rachel Clinton, who had had argument, but it really exploded
(04:27):
later. Let's see, after the trials,
Dan, what's the head chatter? And could call a court then then
the accusations sort of wake up a bit more again when somebody
(04:47):
in Andover with a sick wife asked the some of the supposed
afflicted girls who could feed the invisible world to come and
diagnose who's hurting his wife.And that spread to Andover and
that blew up there. So.
But in fact, there were more people in Andover accused than
they were in Salem. There were other towns where
(05:08):
there was a few suspects, but Andover principally and Salem he
would one in him to sleep and then it right in the day.
Fuck you and Gloss. So it's spread out and after the
geography of course, former Salem Village minister George
(05:30):
Burrows was working in Maine well time and he had unpleasant
relations several villages when he decided he's going to want
he's extradited from Maine of the Maine's part of
Massachusetts. So that's just the geography and
those who escape generally in New York, which is Manhattan.
(05:54):
So you need a map in the book see how what it was, but the
core of it sailor area Essex County most and into adjoining
class of things. Of course, I'm Speaking of what
to me is local history, though if I'm waving my hands around
demonstrating something, it's because I'm thinking of a map.
Can you tell us about your SalemVillage map and a little bit
(06:20):
that you think is important to understand between yours and
Charles Wentworth up on this map?
Up on this map was one of my main sources, but the big source
was the numerous articles that Sydney Pearly wrote and
published over decade. Yes, historical collection than
(06:41):
earlier Essex Bank Aquarium thathe was responsible boy.
So I based it on a road map thatwas available when I was doing
it back in the meeting to get the portion.
And I do old USGA maps from likethe 19th end of the 19th
(07:05):
century. So I could see where the swamps
had been and others that the shoreline changed and a lot of
things have been filled in and other things have been damned.
So the wetland stuff or phones with weren't there originally or
they would be it since then. So it's exchanged with it.
Putting it together. You could see distances people
(07:28):
had travelled to get fled the the first time I went to Danvers
on a Greyhound bus that used used to has tents to make a stop
in Danvers near where Joseph Putnam used to live.
There was a lingerie there and Ialready got off the bus and I
(07:49):
walked into towards Danvers, middle of Danvers found the
cemetery I wanted found Rebecca Nurse house, which I visited
then and then I found a bus stoptake me to Salem and home on the
train. And interestingly, and I'd I'd
walk that far already. Interestingly enough, the bus
(08:11):
didn't come and I'm standing on a highway waiting for it and and
decided I just had to walk because they weren't get the
train. Of course the bus came past me
as I'd almost reached out, but Iwas very much aware of the
distance and I could see why people who lived in Salem
(08:33):
Village and further And of course the most of the button
went further W than where first button.
So they're going into town to stand watch and also to go to
the to meeting of Abbotts is a long walk and the roads are cut
right fest. So that impressed me with my but
(08:56):
it impresses me that they can travel so far within certain
time span that they mentioned inthe trials, like going up from
Salem Village or Wills hero and going to Topsfield to rearrest
Marius and getting back into jail before midnight.
And that's a lot of traveling. And I and I was in a in somebody
(09:20):
else's car going from Salem to Ipswich.
We passed with the content, but that just the distances that
people would walk or ride a horse because they're not
everybody thought when available.
The only people who are traveling quickly respected that
(09:41):
they weren't really there by putting things on the map.
I haven't memorized where everybody lived, but you could
see that some things are fairly far apart or sometimes that you
can think, but the neighbors arerelatively close.
It houses the closer together inSalem house and the farms are
(10:02):
pretty far apart. Not like everybody's clustered
together around one town. Bring the farms are all that and
I rely on thorough deemed exploration for that and a few
articles that had corrected withplaces were when other studies
(10:24):
had figured out this house wasn't that old or house was
around actually still existed onadditions changing the roof and
the location of the Proctor house too that that got clear
and especially the past Salem Village fellow hall was
(10:47):
excavated while we're going to drive.
When I visited the Salem Witch Museum now a year ago, May.
Your beautiful map is there in the foyer and I enjoyed starting
my visit into the museum lookingat your.
Map. Well, thank you.
(11:09):
Yes, there apparently. Yes, I find it quite useful.
Were there any geographical patterns to the spread of where
the accusers and the accused lived?
Interestingly, the four girls who were first bewitched, what
(11:33):
was it? 22 of them lived in the class in
the village, But Ann Putnam is miles to the West, what is now
Middleton and Elizabeth Hubbard,Doctor Craig's niece.
He miles east in Salem Village on the Beverly line.
(11:53):
So that's not like they're dropping in on each other's
kitchen every day, although theywould have known each other from
that Sunday. And Elizabeth Hubbard has stand
on an errand. She mentioned it in the course
of saying house there would specter and a wool chaser, but
(12:16):
the distance is involved in that.
They expected the highest girl to be able to walk all the place
do ours. But anyway, they weren't just in
one close neighbor. How much would the ministers
been traveling in? Or not just the ministers, but
(12:36):
any man you know with a role forthe community?
How? How often would have they been
seeing each other in meeting? They apparently had X.
We're riding on Bush this time, this town meetings and the
village meetings that are corresponding to town and on the
sun, the services and church meeting, not just the religious
(12:57):
services but the business are deciding things like how are we
going to pay the minister or notor not, but local meetings.
The men more than the women, I would think, getting around,
although the women seem to know what was supposedly going on.
A lot of news must have been changed, I would assume on
(13:19):
Sundays in the same place. Were there any other
geographical factors, such as proximity to the wilderness or
areas associated with Native American presence and warfare,
that played a role in shaping the fears and beliefs that led
to the accusations? Well, it was certainly on edge.
(13:42):
There was the big attack on York, ME at the end of January,
which would be as close, really getting close, and there were
other raids on Andover and Billerica area that was closer
to the wilderness. They thought of it.
(14:03):
There was specific raids and I think Andover got excused from
sending militia out because theywere needed home since they were
on the frontier. Those downward, the wilderness
menace seemed closer and close and there were larger planned
(14:23):
expeditions going on between theFrench Canadians and their
native allies and they certainlyattacked Wells in the summer of
69 after George Boroughs get late.
There were planned expeditions that did not come up, but it was
(14:43):
late in the season and the weather was against it.
Blurred. One side in nuclear contracted
smallpox. The war was an actual war and I
just bit. War was a constant during that,
and a number of people who were charged with protecting the
(15:05):
public, militia leaders and so on were accused after they
failed to do something. Somebody crossed come too late
to rescue a town. And then Lacey had left, got
attacked while he knew away. And there's not a lot of
material in the witchcraft documents about what people
(15:28):
thought about him, but people thought maybe he was on the
wrong side. But there's a lot of table works
to buy but not. What do we need to understand
about property lines, property disputes, in how that was
impacting the relationships between these families?
(15:51):
It was easier to still go in NewEngland than in Old England, and
they took full advantage of thatanyway.
And the deeds right now, those are registry of deeds and online
it's been blind from a big oak tree to this pile of stones over
(16:12):
there. But that's a fresh Grove.
And obviously they're not, they're turning on, but fence
lines could be not quite accurate.
Was it when they decide on them,one party sees it in one place
and one maybe 1/4 so over. So there were a lot of losses
(16:33):
about that. There's a root blender card, I
think and not the nurse family, but minister that they bought
their from had had property linedisputes which included the
nurse plan who had inherited land broccoli.
Was it a particular son or was it the widow later married the
(16:56):
minister in Boston. So the land on time.
There's it's still paying it off.
Who owns what. That was a bitter dispute that
got Putnam's involved, but not Thomas Butnam himself, but his
many relatives. So there was they were feeling
scream there, but very well, really exacerbated by The Who
(17:23):
Owns the Rand question. When accusations started revving
up, it was evident that Missus and Elder had never really liked
Rebecca Nurse, and there's no telling what that attitude began
with. They don't spell it out, just
(17:44):
it's evident that she really doesn't like Rebecca and her
school, not the court. And that apparently had been
some big disagreement. Could it be about land?
It might might be a criticism like child rearing or anything,
but we don't know what it was. I'm sure it was a lot of little
things that added up to it to make flourish that store of
(18:08):
addition. There may be no direct
association between land boundaries, for example, and an
accusation, but it's all in the feeling that I really don't like
this person, so she's an obvioussuspect.
In the Rebecca Nurse case, we also see that there were hard
(18:31):
feelings, often between neighbors over fences and things
like that. So how did neighborly disputes
contribute to the witch hunt? Well, directly I'm not sure, but
there were fence disputes, a real common counting record and
(18:54):
were being ongoing. Annoying, but nothing else.
And if the fence wasn't secure and you wanted it fixed, but it
broke or pushed down by Knox or something, then the livestock
can get in and wreck. Of course.
Let's see, there was that argument between Rebecca Nurse
and Samuel Fulton of OK. The Fulton pigs got into the
(19:20):
Nurse yard. Actually I hear the pigs
brothers are quite shocked so that they can really make a mess
up and dig it up and then Mr. Holton get sick and died.
So the widow was still upset about that a couple of years
later when Rebecca tried so thatan example was since and
(19:42):
boundary went, but they didn't dispute the boundary but they
didn't keep sure. You had mentioned that Andover
had so much going on with accusations and we know it was
Spectres. Was there a certain individual
who played a role in carrying those accusations over to
(20:06):
Andover? I forget which one, but his wife
was ill and he asked somebody tocome from Salem Village, see
about it. And I suspect Thomas Butnam
brought his daughter. What?
Or else? Which, Yeah, 'cause the girls
are referenced slow. And that, that really opened a
(20:27):
chant of words and Saint Thomas felt even being a public,
they're its citizens helping things.
At that point he was pretty and totally wrong.
You were part of the Gallows Hill project that looked for the
location of the executions. How did your team go about
(20:48):
confirming the location at Proctor's Ledge?
I had written something about itin 1997 when I asked Salem Witch
Museum the education crap what is it is want to know about and
the location of and one of and Iknew from up on that he climbs
up to the very top and he's certain welcome is never answer
(21:10):
that it's up there. But having read some of Sydney
Curling's material, he said downbelow.
So I put everything together, I could find it.
One clue actually from the trials where one of the suspects
asked, could you see the hangings when you when they
brought you past questions And she certainly could.
(21:33):
So where she probably was, whichyou could locate from one of
Early's articles housed below the hill, would have a good view
of the proceeding from up the road.
And you can't see it now, but then she's questioned in Salem
and that's a sticker. But putting all that together
(21:55):
steam to point to curly location, which is the rocky
ledge between Proctor and the Boston Rd.
So that information was out there for a while.
But ten years ago now, ElizabethPeterson, who was director of
the witch house, so-called city owned 17th century house that
(22:20):
Judge John Pulling, she got a number of witch trial scholars,
people who were really interested in it together to see
if something could be done so that the land was up there
remaining would be preserved. The city of Salem had purchased
(22:41):
a scrap of it in the 1930s. It was called Witch Memorial
land and it was supposed to be amemorial people who died forever
ready forever. But nothing really came of it
because the depression starts too and it's just land that's
(23:02):
not built on and trash float something there.
Giving credit to all his fetus. She and her family would don't
pick up trash to clean it out, so it wouldn't look like this is
what you do with the plot. Candy wrapper could blow in from
somewhere else, but there was a cast eye and radiator the heaven
(23:24):
fetched way in the bathroom. So yeah, that did not blow it
even though it didn't do hurricane.
So anyway, a number of us got together, she and I and Emerson
Baker from Salem State History Department, Peter Sadlock of
Salem State Geology Department, Ben Ray University of Virginia
(23:48):
would put together the online version of the duck that website
absolute value. Once they had taken Tom Phillips
still a film maker so that we could get something done with
that. There were a number of us and we
met in the Cohen house Foxy one of us by song in Virginia and
(24:11):
tried to plan how this could be problem memorial and it needed
to be proven. It had taken so much time since
well 1692 and 1997. Nineteen one was early first
mentioned it that a computer program of site analysis had
(24:33):
been invented down in Virginia University and it would show if
you're standing at a certain place that would match the
anecdotes that Curly had collected of people who in their
childhood decided and pointed out to them by their father's
son. They stood in that thought.
What would they have been able to see?
And if you stand there now there's a a brick building in
(24:56):
the way trees and stuff and a lot of it.
But the view shed analysis indicated that if those
buildings and things weren't there, you could see what is now
called frosted glitch, a very clearview.
So that helps. And non invasive ground
(25:18):
venetating radar and electronic resistivity tests of soil on the
ledge on the city owner indicated that there were no
discernible bodies. But also its granite bedrock
underneath, which is acidic don't last.
(25:39):
And the ground was barely polluted in the area from the
chemicals in the shoe factories and leather tint factories that
had been in the area at the end of the nineteen, 20th century.
And then the great fires, they were started just before that
spot. So it was, as they say,
disturbed. But it's also legends that
(26:02):
people who had been temporarily buried in the area, their
families had removed their bodies.
We didn't want to disturb anything that was very.
But with those tests and the youshed analysis, we had an
appointment with me at Driscoll.The the interested in better
(26:26):
memorializing the the the land and they went with it hired the
landscape architect Martha Lyon,who designed the curbs law that
names in it and the landscape oneither side of that plot of
land. So that was a a good bit of
(26:49):
geographical that finally did get picking up and people really
flawless stuff. Their ancestors virgin that's
they're sympathetic to what theywent.
Knowing where something happenedhelped.
Really not just knowing how far out of town recession would have
taken to get somebody from the jail let me know that was to
(27:11):
this execution site. Now, to know where that is,
being in a site where something important happened.
It's not happening while you're there, but you're in the same
space where somebody did something brave on one, I don't
know, not brave on the other. But it's important not to just
(27:32):
build over them table wherever it needs to be remembered.
Yes, places being in a place youdon't have to be for shape,
whatever, but it does. It's more of a thing.
What is good for people to consider when they go to
Proctor's Ledge or to the Homestead or to these places
(27:55):
that have these memories? Well, sometimes it I would hope
that it wouldn't mind people, that these are real people that
thought about not fictional characters.
They were not spectators either.They have real people who are
real people and suffered from it.
It was no joke at all. I mean, they died.
(28:17):
They died painfully. And the rest of the family is
influenced by free and in some cases breadwinners gone says men
were executed to that it personalizes although wedges in
the middle of urban neighborhood.
(28:38):
There's a fair bit of land around the nurse homes that it's
easier to imagine that this different situation.
But you're right there, which isnice.
Sarah and I and our colleague Mary Bingham visited Proctor's
Ledge with a colleague from Nigeria who's an advocate
(29:02):
against witch hunts today. And he's used to dealing with
these persecutions against people accused of witchcraft in
modern times. And it was so moving, he said,
when he saw a memorial to peoplewho had been accused of the same
(29:22):
things that he's hearing about today.
And I took a photograph of him leaving flowers there.
And it's now actually traveling in a international exhibit of
photographs related to witch trials and modern witchcraft
persecutions. So I just wanted to say it's a
(29:45):
very moving experience and thankyou for your work on that.
What it's nice, it's encouragingthat it it means something, not
just local history and so on. Did it mean something in the
world, the wider world? Well, that's good to know.
(30:08):
Thank you so much for helping toestablish that location and get
that memorial there. It's meaningful to a lot of
people. A lot of people worked on that.
It was a personal quest and thenit took off like thanks Sydney
Pearly, one of my. Yeah, what can you tell us about
(30:30):
Sydney Pearly? Who was he?
He was a lawyer and apparently in his spare time he read every
deed and every old lock case in the Essex County Courthouse.
Considered I get this antiquarian when the self
published magazine The Essex Antiquarian that you can find on
(30:53):
law and all minutiae. Not not the great suite of
history, but minutiae was so fascinating about Essex County
stuff, but a lot of it really handy for researching and thank
goodness he did. He also footnote it, which
(31:13):
Charles Auckland did, and when somebody revealing his book on
witchcraft trials commented thatit would have been better when
footnotes, they seem to get quite ugly.
About that, Mister, I said it. That Cord is correct.
But Gee, you don't have to implythat someone doesn't know what
(31:34):
they're doing to ask where they got information.
You want to see it too. No telling what else are in
there. So of the two early under the
nicer chap. We're curious, what writing are
you working on these days? Well, after I do this, I'll be
going back to the working on thelast chapter of my car getting
(32:00):
longer and longer. It's eight men of Salem.
The companion belong to six women.
Six men of Salem. The next one not 8 please. 6 is
difficult enough to chuckle, andas I've said before, I was more
or less quarantined with all sixopen during COVID.
(32:21):
Had to get down the right. But yes, it's fixed up from all
of them opinionated in one way or another.
But I have hopes that if manuscript at least will be your
finished reality sooner. Because I've been working on a
Clover, I have to do shorter books and if I ever embark on
(32:44):
another biographical work, it had better be one person.
But they're all in. Do you want to know who they
are? Yes, that was my next question.
I was, the president said. Because they're still nattering
in my ears. Just check in descending order
of age. The oldest was Captain John
Alden, second son of John, second is Reverend John Hale of
(33:08):
Beverly. They're not all from Sailor
Alden, get quoted and bought, but they're all right then.
John Hawthorne, Judge Samuel Wardwell, who's a father of
Carpenter and a part time fortune teller.
He would ask Thomas Button and then Reverend George Burrow.
(33:33):
The three of them will be, I won't tell spoiler alert, but
since you know the history, whathappens, what a lot happens in
between and before and after, those who surprise, what they do
afterwards, what them and how the effect of what it what it's
(33:56):
like spinning free. I keep saying to keep all of us,
all of it straight and anything else I ask what is fast?
How is technology? It has changed so much over the
years. Has that changed your research?
Well, I could find things online, which is an enormous
(34:19):
boom. I am not a technical person, but
the only reason I succumbed to having a computer back when it
was new was because I wanted to write.
Started out with a handy they don't make any more, which was
comparable to no other system and had green letters on a black
screen. Once I got into the Internet on
(34:42):
the Public Library, then you could find things and especially
during COVID, I could find things because the University of
Virginia website had the most document that was Norman and and
being able to communicate by e-mail.
And then once Kovich started taking and screaming, I learned
how to communicate through Zoranth as I'm doing this
(35:03):
moment. So I'm astonished that I with my
usual attitudes towards technology and doing any of
that, but it yes, it's become necessary to wear and a lot and
Google Translate helped. He was a huge French dog got the
(35:23):
gist of it. What better that Peyton Pipe,
what little I remember to high school?
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted
to speak to today or any final thoughts?
From what you said, which accusations are not a thing of
(35:46):
the past and when? It's not a literal witchcraft
accusation, but as a metaphor, it's harder to recognize right
away. Maybe that's what's happening,
but humans have not changed and they're not as up to date as
they. So it's not just other people,
(36:11):
it's not just other people. Yet wonder what's all feelings
about things and not go off the deep end just because you're
here's what's really and how do we know what be nice to shoot?
Yes. Which is a wimpy way to put it,
(36:35):
but let's be nicer. Yeah, really.
Like what you said about just because you're scared, you still
need to Get the facts straight. And you know, I think it's
important just to play by the same rules and not let fear
(36:56):
shape how you deal with situations.
I can imagine the parents in thevillage were scared that their
two kids were going to be bewitched next, but really, was
that the problem? And since we're talking about
witch trial, which most people have stolen and correctly, I
(37:17):
imagine that evil witchcraft cannot really be projected.
But if you're comparing historical witch trials with
some current problem, most people would assume that the
historical trial had nothing to back it up except hurt feelings.
(37:38):
Mate. But what's happening now?
You don't have to suppose that say, terrorism is impossible in
order to rule even if someone isinnocent of it, that that there
is no plot of some kind like concerned about.
It doesn't have to be impossiblefor it to not have in particular
(38:01):
and. Now Sarah has in witch hunts
news. End Witch Hunts News Thank you
to everyone who joined us at Connecticut's Old State House on
February 1st for our groundbreaking Connecticut Witch
Trials remembrance of it. Your presence helped to make
this first of its kind commemoration truly historic.
(38:22):
Together, we honored victims while building momentum for
justice in other states. We're excited to announce our
next remembrance event being planned for Massachusetts.
To join the organizing committee, visit
endwitchhunts.org. Forward slash volunteer.
The Connecticut Witch Trials Memorial Project is moving
forward as plans progress. We're partnering with Hartford's
(38:43):
Ancient Burying Ground to createa permanent memorial honoring
Connecticut's witch trial victims.
Find our PayPal Gifts link in the show notes to give your
donation through End Witch Hunt's nonprofit.
Your contribution will help bring this memorial to
completion. Action needed in Maryland and
Massachusetts Maryland's HJ 2 inMassachusetts HD 3054 need to
(39:05):
advance through committees for justice for colonial witch trial
victims including Rebecca Fowlerand Maul Dyer in Maryland and
the five women executed in Boston, Margaret Jones,
Elizabeth Kendall, Alice Lake, Ann Hibbens and Goody Glover.
Connecticut's successful resolution shows what's possible
with community support. Take action today by signing the
(39:26):
petitions. Change.org/witchtrials takes you
to the Massachusetts petition. It needs your
signaturechange.org MD Witch Trials takes you to the Maryland
petition. We need your signatures.
These victims deserve recognition and justice.
With your support, we can right these historical wrongs as their
(39:48):
stores connect to ongoing globalpersecution.
Together, we're breaking centuries of silence.
For more information on modern alleged witch persecution, visit
andwitchhunts.org. Thank you, Sarah.
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us on this
episode of Witch Hunt. Spend time with us again next
(40:09):
week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to Witch Hunt, the podcast of the witch Trials.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today, we're exploring how geography shaped one of
history's most notorious witch hunts.
When we examine the Salem Witch trials, we often focus on the
key players and timeline of events.
But another crucial element deserves our attention, the
(00:21):
physical landscape where these events unfolded.
Our guest today, acclaimed historian Marilyn K Roach, has
spent decades mapping and studying the geography of the
1692 witch trials. Her meticulous research has
helped identify crucial locations, including the
execution site at Proctor's Ledge.
(00:42):
Through her work with the Gallows Hill Project and
creation of detailed historical maps, Roach shows us how
property disputes, boundary lines and travel distances
played vital roles in shaping accusations and their spread.
From rural Salem village to the bustling port town of Salem
itself, and as far off as Maine,each location tells part of this
(01:04):
complex story. Understanding these spaces helps
us grasp how fear and suspicion moved through colonial New
England communities. In our conversation, Roach
shares insights from her groundbreaking research while
reminding us that these historical spaces continue to
resonate with meaning today. So join us as we explore the
geography of fear with Marilyn KRoach.
(01:27):
Today we are going to consider the space and people of the
Salem Witch Trials. It's a pleasure to welcome back
Marilyn Roach, acclaimed historian and author of the
Salem Witch Trials, a day by daychronicle of a community under
siege, to the Witch Hunt podcast.
Thank you for all your contributions to the remembrance
of the Salem Witch Trials. Thank you for inviting me.
(01:51):
Thank you. And how did the geography of
Salem contribute to the spread of the witch hunt?
Because the panic started in Salem Village, which was on the
rural side of town, a good wastefrom a port, but most of the
money was the government. It's out in the boonage far as
(02:13):
other people concerned, it spread within the family and
once it seemed that it was something that needed to be
looked at by the law and they started holding hearing.
The magistrates came out from Salem to Salem village determine
when was not going on to see if anybody should be questioned or
(02:35):
obliged to stay for trial later.They couldn't do it later.
That alerts the rest of the townand I imagine because the
lichens were supposed to be which went on for almost a month
really it was known in the area full area, not just Salem, but
taking this town too. So it was breaking news and
(02:59):
juicy gossip. But once it's deemed that there
was a with the conspiracy to worry about because we're
teachable with that making she made-up a story that they would
accept, which sounded to them like a confession because every
time she said she wasn't the witch, they would rape it.
(03:21):
Then she mentioned that there were others, 9 I think, but they
knew the three they'd arrested, including the cheaper Sarah
Osborne. Sarah Good.
Then people were left wondering who were the others and how
many. And in fact, for what's called
confession, describe our spectors coming in Boston.
(03:43):
So it's down a lot bigger than what they first feared, and it's
sort of a pause for a couple of weeks or another arrest.
But people are wondering who else in the neighborhood is up
to no good devil. And that's presumably they spent
a couple of weeks bashing over who they didn't like and who
(04:05):
unlike respect and all sorts of people who had had run insurance
with their neighbors and in other towns too, or at least
thought of them. There was a woman in Ipswich,
Rachel Clinton, who had had argument, but it really exploded
(04:27):
later. Let's see, after the trials,
Dan, what's the head chatter? And could call a court then then
the accusations sort of wake up a bit more again when somebody
(04:47):
in Andover with a sick wife asked the some of the supposed
afflicted girls who could feed the invisible world to come and
diagnose who's hurting his wife.And that spread to Andover and
that blew up there. So.
But in fact, there were more people in Andover accused than
they were in Salem. There were other towns where
(05:08):
there was a few suspects, but Andover principally and Salem he
would one in him to sleep and then it right in the day.
Fuck you and Gloss. So it's spread out and after the
geography of course, former Salem Village minister George
(05:30):
Burrows was working in Maine well time and he had unpleasant
relations several villages when he decided he's going to want
he's extradited from Maine of the Maine's part of
Massachusetts. So that's just the geography and
those who escape generally in New York, which is Manhattan.
(05:54):
So you need a map in the book see how what it was, but the
core of it sailor area Essex County most and into adjoining
class of things. Of course, I'm Speaking of what
to me is local history, though if I'm waving my hands around
demonstrating something, it's because I'm thinking of a map.
Can you tell us about your SalemVillage map and a little bit
(06:20):
that you think is important to understand between yours and
Charles Wentworth up on this map?
Up on this map was one of my main sources, but the big source
was the numerous articles that Sydney Pearly wrote and
published over decade. Yes, historical collection than
(06:41):
earlier Essex Bank Aquarium thathe was responsible boy.
So I based it on a road map thatwas available when I was doing
it back in the meeting to get the portion.
And I do old USGA maps from likethe 19th end of the 19th
(07:05):
century. So I could see where the swamps
had been and others that the shoreline changed and a lot of
things have been filled in and other things have been damned.
So the wetland stuff or phones with weren't there originally or
they would be it since then. So it's exchanged with it.
Putting it together. You could see distances people
(07:28):
had travelled to get fled the the first time I went to Danvers
on a Greyhound bus that used used to has tents to make a stop
in Danvers near where Joseph Putnam used to live.
There was a lingerie there and Ialready got off the bus and I
(07:49):
walked into towards Danvers, middle of Danvers found the
cemetery I wanted found Rebecca Nurse house, which I visited
then and then I found a bus stoptake me to Salem and home on the
train. And interestingly, and I'd I'd
walk that far already. Interestingly enough, the bus
(08:11):
didn't come and I'm standing on a highway waiting for it and and
decided I just had to walk because they weren't get the
train. Of course the bus came past me
as I'd almost reached out, but Iwas very much aware of the
distance and I could see why people who lived in Salem
(08:33):
Village and further And of course the most of the button
went further W than where first button.
So they're going into town to stand watch and also to go to
the to meeting of Abbotts is a long walk and the roads are cut
right fest. So that impressed me with my but
(08:56):
it impresses me that they can travel so far within certain
time span that they mentioned inthe trials, like going up from
Salem Village or Wills hero and going to Topsfield to rearrest
Marius and getting back into jail before midnight.
And that's a lot of traveling. And I and I was in a in somebody
(09:20):
else's car going from Salem to Ipswich.
We passed with the content, but that just the distances that
people would walk or ride a horse because they're not
everybody thought when available.
The only people who are traveling quickly respected that
(09:41):
they weren't really there by putting things on the map.
I haven't memorized where everybody lived, but you could
see that some things are fairly far apart or sometimes that you
can think, but the neighbors arerelatively close.
It houses the closer together inSalem house and the farms are
(10:02):
pretty far apart. Not like everybody's clustered
together around one town. Bring the farms are all that and
I rely on thorough deemed exploration for that and a few
articles that had corrected withplaces were when other studies
(10:24):
had figured out this house wasn't that old or house was
around actually still existed onadditions changing the roof and
the location of the Proctor house too that that got clear
and especially the past Salem Village fellow hall was
(10:47):
excavated while we're going to drive.
When I visited the Salem Witch Museum now a year ago, May.
Your beautiful map is there in the foyer and I enjoyed starting
my visit into the museum lookingat your.
Map. Well, thank you.
(11:09):
Yes, there apparently. Yes, I find it quite useful.
Were there any geographical patterns to the spread of where
the accusers and the accused lived?
Interestingly, the four girls who were first bewitched, what
(11:33):
was it? 22 of them lived in the class in
the village, But Ann Putnam is miles to the West, what is now
Middleton and Elizabeth Hubbard,Doctor Craig's niece.
He miles east in Salem Village on the Beverly line.
(11:53):
So that's not like they're dropping in on each other's
kitchen every day, although theywould have known each other from
that Sunday. And Elizabeth Hubbard has stand
on an errand. She mentioned it in the course
of saying house there would specter and a wool chaser, but
(12:16):
the distance is involved in that.
They expected the highest girl to be able to walk all the place
do ours. But anyway, they weren't just in
one close neighbor. How much would the ministers
been traveling in? Or not just the ministers, but
(12:36):
any man you know with a role forthe community?
How? How often would have they been
seeing each other in meeting? They apparently had X.
We're riding on Bush this time, this town meetings and the
village meetings that are corresponding to town and on the
sun, the services and church meeting, not just the religious
(12:57):
services but the business are deciding things like how are we
going to pay the minister or notor not, but local meetings.
The men more than the women, I would think, getting around,
although the women seem to know what was supposedly going on.
A lot of news must have been changed, I would assume on
(13:19):
Sundays in the same place. Were there any other
geographical factors, such as proximity to the wilderness or
areas associated with Native American presence and warfare,
that played a role in shaping the fears and beliefs that led
to the accusations? Well, it was certainly on edge.
(13:42):
There was the big attack on York, ME at the end of January,
which would be as close, really getting close, and there were
other raids on Andover and Billerica area that was closer
to the wilderness. They thought of it.
(14:03):
There was specific raids and I think Andover got excused from
sending militia out because theywere needed home since they were
on the frontier. Those downward, the wilderness
menace seemed closer and close and there were larger planned
(14:23):
expeditions going on between theFrench Canadians and their
native allies and they certainlyattacked Wells in the summer of
69 after George Boroughs get late.
There were planned expeditions that did not come up, but it was
(14:43):
late in the season and the weather was against it.
Blurred. One side in nuclear contracted
smallpox. The war was an actual war and I
just bit. War was a constant during that,
and a number of people who were charged with protecting the
(15:05):
public, militia leaders and so on were accused after they
failed to do something. Somebody crossed come too late
to rescue a town. And then Lacey had left, got
attacked while he knew away. And there's not a lot of
material in the witchcraft documents about what people
(15:28):
thought about him, but people thought maybe he was on the
wrong side. But there's a lot of table works
to buy but not. What do we need to understand
about property lines, property disputes, in how that was
impacting the relationships between these families?
(15:51):
It was easier to still go in NewEngland than in Old England, and
they took full advantage of thatanyway.
And the deeds right now, those are registry of deeds and online
it's been blind from a big oak tree to this pile of stones over
(16:12):
there. But that's a fresh Grove.
And obviously they're not, they're turning on, but fence
lines could be not quite accurate.
Was it when they decide on them,one party sees it in one place
and one maybe 1/4 so over. So there were a lot of losses
(16:33):
about that. There's a root blender card, I
think and not the nurse family, but minister that they bought
their from had had property linedisputes which included the
nurse plan who had inherited land broccoli.
Was it a particular son or was it the widow later married the
(16:56):
minister in Boston. So the land on time.
There's it's still paying it off.
Who owns what. That was a bitter dispute that
got Putnam's involved, but not Thomas Butnam himself, but his
many relatives. So there was they were feeling
scream there, but very well, really exacerbated by The Who
(17:23):
Owns the Rand question. When accusations started revving
up, it was evident that Missus and Elder had never really liked
Rebecca Nurse, and there's no telling what that attitude began
with. They don't spell it out, just
(17:44):
it's evident that she really doesn't like Rebecca and her
school, not the court. And that apparently had been
some big disagreement. Could it be about land?
It might might be a criticism like child rearing or anything,
but we don't know what it was. I'm sure it was a lot of little
things that added up to it to make flourish that store of
(18:08):
addition. There may be no direct
association between land boundaries, for example, and an
accusation, but it's all in the feeling that I really don't like
this person, so she's an obvioussuspect.
In the Rebecca Nurse case, we also see that there were hard
(18:31):
feelings, often between neighbors over fences and things
like that. So how did neighborly disputes
contribute to the witch hunt? Well, directly I'm not sure, but
there were fence disputes, a real common counting record and
(18:54):
were being ongoing. Annoying, but nothing else.
And if the fence wasn't secure and you wanted it fixed, but it
broke or pushed down by Knox or something, then the livestock
can get in and wreck. Of course.
Let's see, there was that argument between Rebecca Nurse
and Samuel Fulton of OK. The Fulton pigs got into the
(19:20):
Nurse yard. Actually I hear the pigs
brothers are quite shocked so that they can really make a mess
up and dig it up and then Mr. Holton get sick and died.
So the widow was still upset about that a couple of years
later when Rebecca tried so thatan example was since and
(19:42):
boundary went, but they didn't dispute the boundary but they
didn't keep sure. You had mentioned that Andover
had so much going on with accusations and we know it was
Spectres. Was there a certain individual
who played a role in carrying those accusations over to
(20:06):
Andover? I forget which one, but his wife
was ill and he asked somebody tocome from Salem Village, see
about it. And I suspect Thomas Butnam
brought his daughter. What?
Or else? Which, Yeah, 'cause the girls
are referenced slow. And that, that really opened a
(20:27):
chant of words and Saint Thomas felt even being a public,
they're its citizens helping things.
At that point he was pretty and totally wrong.
You were part of the Gallows Hill project that looked for the
location of the executions. How did your team go about
(20:48):
confirming the location at Proctor's Ledge?
I had written something about itin 1997 when I asked Salem Witch
Museum the education crap what is it is want to know about and
the location of and one of and Iknew from up on that he climbs
up to the very top and he's certain welcome is never answer
(21:10):
that it's up there. But having read some of Sydney
Curling's material, he said downbelow.
So I put everything together, I could find it.
One clue actually from the trials where one of the suspects
asked, could you see the hangings when you when they
brought you past questions And she certainly could.
(21:33):
So where she probably was, whichyou could locate from one of
Early's articles housed below the hill, would have a good view
of the proceeding from up the road.
And you can't see it now, but then she's questioned in Salem
and that's a sticker. But putting all that together
(21:55):
steam to point to curly location, which is the rocky
ledge between Proctor and the Boston Rd.
So that information was out there for a while.
But ten years ago now, ElizabethPeterson, who was director of
the witch house, so-called city owned 17th century house that
(22:20):
Judge John Pulling, she got a number of witch trial scholars,
people who were really interested in it together to see
if something could be done so that the land was up there
remaining would be preserved. The city of Salem had purchased
(22:41):
a scrap of it in the 1930s. It was called Witch Memorial
land and it was supposed to be amemorial people who died forever
ready forever. But nothing really came of it
because the depression starts too and it's just land that's
(23:02):
not built on and trash float something there.
Giving credit to all his fetus. She and her family would don't
pick up trash to clean it out, so it wouldn't look like this is
what you do with the plot. Candy wrapper could blow in from
somewhere else, but there was a cast eye and radiator the heaven
(23:24):
fetched way in the bathroom. So yeah, that did not blow it
even though it didn't do hurricane.
So anyway, a number of us got together, she and I and Emerson
Baker from Salem State History Department, Peter Sadlock of
Salem State Geology Department, Ben Ray University of Virginia
(23:48):
would put together the online version of the duck that website
absolute value. Once they had taken Tom Phillips
still a film maker so that we could get something done with
that. There were a number of us and we
met in the Cohen house Foxy one of us by song in Virginia and
(24:11):
tried to plan how this could be problem memorial and it needed
to be proven. It had taken so much time since
well 1692 and 1997. Nineteen one was early first
mentioned it that a computer program of site analysis had
(24:33):
been invented down in Virginia University and it would show if
you're standing at a certain place that would match the
anecdotes that Curly had collected of people who in their
childhood decided and pointed out to them by their father's
son. They stood in that thought.
What would they have been able to see?
And if you stand there now there's a a brick building in
(24:56):
the way trees and stuff and a lot of it.
But the view shed analysis indicated that if those
buildings and things weren't there, you could see what is now
called frosted glitch, a very clearview.
So that helps. And non invasive ground
(25:18):
venetating radar and electronic resistivity tests of soil on the
ledge on the city owner indicated that there were no
discernible bodies. But also its granite bedrock
underneath, which is acidic don't last.
(25:39):
And the ground was barely polluted in the area from the
chemicals in the shoe factories and leather tint factories that
had been in the area at the end of the nineteen, 20th century.
And then the great fires, they were started just before that
spot. So it was, as they say,
disturbed. But it's also legends that
(26:02):
people who had been temporarily buried in the area, their
families had removed their bodies.
We didn't want to disturb anything that was very.
But with those tests and the youshed analysis, we had an
appointment with me at Driscoll.The the interested in better
(26:26):
memorializing the the the land and they went with it hired the
landscape architect Martha Lyon,who designed the curbs law that
names in it and the landscape oneither side of that plot of
land. So that was a a good bit of
(26:49):
geographical that finally did get picking up and people really
flawless stuff. Their ancestors virgin that's
they're sympathetic to what theywent.
Knowing where something happenedhelped.
Really not just knowing how far out of town recession would have
taken to get somebody from the jail let me know that was to
(27:11):
this execution site. Now, to know where that is,
being in a site where something important happened.
It's not happening while you're there, but you're in the same
space where somebody did something brave on one, I don't
know, not brave on the other. But it's important not to just
(27:32):
build over them table wherever it needs to be remembered.
Yes, places being in a place youdon't have to be for shape,
whatever, but it does. It's more of a thing.
What is good for people to consider when they go to
Proctor's Ledge or to the Homestead or to these places
(27:55):
that have these memories? Well, sometimes it I would hope
that it wouldn't mind people, that these are real people that
thought about not fictional characters.
They were not spectators either.They have real people who are
real people and suffered from it.
It was no joke at all. I mean, they died.
(28:17):
They died painfully. And the rest of the family is
influenced by free and in some cases breadwinners gone says men
were executed to that it personalizes although wedges in
the middle of urban neighborhood.
(28:38):
There's a fair bit of land around the nurse homes that it's
easier to imagine that this different situation.
But you're right there, which isnice.
Sarah and I and our colleague Mary Bingham visited Proctor's
Ledge with a colleague from Nigeria who's an advocate
(29:02):
against witch hunts today. And he's used to dealing with
these persecutions against people accused of witchcraft in
modern times. And it was so moving, he said,
when he saw a memorial to peoplewho had been accused of the same
(29:22):
things that he's hearing about today.
And I took a photograph of him leaving flowers there.
And it's now actually traveling in a international exhibit of
photographs related to witch trials and modern witchcraft
persecutions. So I just wanted to say it's a
(29:45):
very moving experience and thankyou for your work on that.
What it's nice, it's encouragingthat it it means something, not
just local history and so on. Did it mean something in the
world, the wider world? Well, that's good to know.
(30:08):
Thank you so much for helping toestablish that location and get
that memorial there. It's meaningful to a lot of
people. A lot of people worked on that.
It was a personal quest and thenit took off like thanks Sydney
Pearly, one of my. Yeah, what can you tell us about
(30:30):
Sydney Pearly? Who was he?
He was a lawyer and apparently in his spare time he read every
deed and every old lock case in the Essex County Courthouse.
Considered I get this antiquarian when the self
published magazine The Essex Antiquarian that you can find on
(30:53):
law and all minutiae. Not not the great suite of
history, but minutiae was so fascinating about Essex County
stuff, but a lot of it really handy for researching and thank
goodness he did. He also footnote it, which
(31:13):
Charles Auckland did, and when somebody revealing his book on
witchcraft trials commented thatit would have been better when
footnotes, they seem to get quite ugly.
About that, Mister, I said it. That Cord is correct.
But Gee, you don't have to implythat someone doesn't know what
(31:34):
they're doing to ask where they got information.
You want to see it too. No telling what else are in
there. So of the two early under the
nicer chap. We're curious, what writing are
you working on these days? Well, after I do this, I'll be
going back to the working on thelast chapter of my car getting
(32:00):
longer and longer. It's eight men of Salem.
The companion belong to six women.
Six men of Salem. The next one not 8 please. 6 is
difficult enough to chuckle, andas I've said before, I was more
or less quarantined with all sixopen during COVID.
(32:21):
Had to get down the right. But yes, it's fixed up from all
of them opinionated in one way or another.
But I have hopes that if manuscript at least will be your
finished reality sooner. Because I've been working on a
Clover, I have to do shorter books and if I ever embark on
(32:44):
another biographical work, it had better be one person.
But they're all in. Do you want to know who they
are? Yes, that was my next question.
I was, the president said. Because they're still nattering
in my ears. Just check in descending order
of age. The oldest was Captain John
Alden, second son of John, second is Reverend John Hale of
(33:08):
Beverly. They're not all from Sailor
Alden, get quoted and bought, but they're all right then.
John Hawthorne, Judge Samuel Wardwell, who's a father of
Carpenter and a part time fortune teller.
He would ask Thomas Button and then Reverend George Burrow.
(33:33):
The three of them will be, I won't tell spoiler alert, but
since you know the history, whathappens, what a lot happens in
between and before and after, those who surprise, what they do
afterwards, what them and how the effect of what it what it's
(33:56):
like spinning free. I keep saying to keep all of us,
all of it straight and anything else I ask what is fast?
How is technology? It has changed so much over the
years. Has that changed your research?
Well, I could find things online, which is an enormous
(34:19):
boom. I am not a technical person, but
the only reason I succumbed to having a computer back when it
was new was because I wanted to write.
Started out with a handy they don't make any more, which was
comparable to no other system and had green letters on a black
screen. Once I got into the Internet on
(34:42):
the Public Library, then you could find things and especially
during COVID, I could find things because the University of
Virginia website had the most document that was Norman and and
being able to communicate by e-mail.
And then once Kovich started taking and screaming, I learned
how to communicate through Zoranth as I'm doing this
(35:03):
moment. So I'm astonished that I with my
usual attitudes towards technology and doing any of
that, but it yes, it's become necessary to wear and a lot and
Google Translate helped. He was a huge French dog got the
(35:23):
gist of it. What better that Peyton Pipe,
what little I remember to high school?
Thank you so much for joining ustoday.
Is there anything that we haven't covered that you wanted
to speak to today or any final thoughts?
From what you said, which accusations are not a thing of
(35:46):
the past and when? It's not a literal witchcraft
accusation, but as a metaphor, it's harder to recognize right
away. Maybe that's what's happening,
but humans have not changed and they're not as up to date as
they. So it's not just other people,
(36:11):
it's not just other people. Yet wonder what's all feelings
about things and not go off the deep end just because you're
here's what's really and how do we know what be nice to shoot?
Yes. Which is a wimpy way to put it,
(36:35):
but let's be nicer. Yeah, really.
Like what you said about just because you're scared, you still
need to Get the facts straight. And you know, I think it's
important just to play by the same rules and not let fear
(36:56):
shape how you deal with situations.
I can imagine the parents in thevillage were scared that their
two kids were going to be bewitched next, but really, was
that the problem? And since we're talking about
witch trial, which most people have stolen and correctly, I
(37:17):
imagine that evil witchcraft cannot really be projected.
But if you're comparing historical witch trials with
some current problem, most people would assume that the
historical trial had nothing to back it up except hurt feelings.
(37:38):
Mate. But what's happening now?
You don't have to suppose that say, terrorism is impossible in
order to rule even if someone isinnocent of it, that that there
is no plot of some kind like concerned about.
It doesn't have to be impossiblefor it to not have in particular
(38:01):
and. Now Sarah has in witch hunts
news. End Witch Hunts News Thank you
to everyone who joined us at Connecticut's Old State House on
February 1st for our groundbreaking Connecticut Witch
Trials remembrance of it. Your presence helped to make
this first of its kind commemoration truly historic.
(38:22):
Together, we honored victims while building momentum for
justice in other states. We're excited to announce our
next remembrance event being planned for Massachusetts.
To join the organizing committee, visit
endwitchhunts.org. Forward slash volunteer.
The Connecticut Witch Trials Memorial Project is moving
forward as plans progress. We're partnering with Hartford's
(38:43):
Ancient Burying Ground to createa permanent memorial honoring
Connecticut's witch trial victims.
Find our PayPal Gifts link in the show notes to give your
donation through End Witch Hunt's nonprofit.
Your contribution will help bring this memorial to
completion. Action needed in Maryland and
Massachusetts Maryland's HJ 2 inMassachusetts HD 3054 need to
(39:05):
advance through committees for justice for colonial witch trial
victims including Rebecca Fowlerand Maul Dyer in Maryland and
the five women executed in Boston, Margaret Jones,
Elizabeth Kendall, Alice Lake, Ann Hibbens and Goody Glover.
Connecticut's successful resolution shows what's possible
with community support. Take action today by signing the
(39:26):
petitions. Change.org/witchtrials takes you
to the Massachusetts petition. It needs your
signaturechange.org MD Witch Trials takes you to the Maryland
petition. We need your signatures.
These victims deserve recognition and justice.
With your support, we can right these historical wrongs as their
(39:48):
stores connect to ongoing globalpersecution.
Together, we're breaking centuries of silence.
For more information on modern alleged witch persecution, visit
andwitchhunts.org. Thank you, Sarah.
You're welcome. Thank you for joining us on this
episode of Witch Hunt. Spend time with us again next
(40:09):
week. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
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