What happens when a society finally confronts one of its darkest chapters? In Scotland, a growing movement is demanding recognition for the thousands of women killed during the country's brutal witch hunts—a campaign that reveals how historical injustices continue to shape us today. Dr. Margaret Malloch from the University of Stirling joins us to discuss her project "Memorializing Injustice," examining different campaigns of remembrance and exploring why remembering these forgotten victims matters now more than ever, and what Scotland's reckoning can teach us about confronting uncomfortable truths. A thought-provoking conversation about memory, how we understand justice, and the stories society chooses to tell.
Formal Apology: The Church of Scotland Apologising for Historic Wrongs
Remembering the Accused Witches of Scotland Campaign
Listen to Witches of Scotland Episode
Listen to Episode with Author Mary W. Craig on Witch Trials in Scotland
Listen to Episode on the Paisley Witch Hunt
Listen to Episode on the play Prick
Help Us Build Our Patreon Community
The Thing About Witch Hunts Website
Check out our new podcast: The Thing About Salem on YouTube!
Sign up for our Newsletter
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the thing about witchhunts.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're taking you across the Atlantic to Scotland, where
a remarkable movement is uncovering one of history's most
devastating and concealed injustices.
Between 1563 and 1736, Scotland's witch hunts claimed
(00:21):
at least 2500 lives, 85% of themwomen.
To put that in perspective, Scotland executed about five
times more people per capita than England, making it one of
the deadliest witch hunting regions in all of Europe.
Our guest today is Doctor Margaret Malik, a criminology
professor at the University of Sterling, who's been studying
(00:43):
these remembrance campaigns through her project
Memorializing Injustice. As Margaret will explain, this
is about much more than acknowledgement.
It's about understanding how historical trauma shapes us
today and why confronting injustice, past and present, is
essential for any society that claims to value justice.
(01:04):
We think you'll find some striking parallels between
what's happening in Scotland andthe witch trial remembrance
movements here in the United States.
So let's go to our conversation with Margaret Malik about
memorializing injustice. Welcome to the Thing About Witch
Hunts podcast. We are so excited to talk with
you today. Please introduce yourself and
(01:26):
tell us about your professional background.
Thank you. Well, it's great to be here with
you both. I'm Margaret Mala and I'm a
professor of criminology at the University of Sterling in
Scotland and I'm part of the Scottish Centre for Crime and
Justice Research. And I suppose in terms of my
background, my interest, I had an ongoing interest in
(01:47):
injustice, both social and legalfor many years.
And really for the past 30 yearsmy research and teaching has
examined the experiences of women in particular as they
encounter the sort of criminal legal system, both as victims or
survivors of gender based violence and also as
(02:08):
criminalised people. So I'm particularly interested
in the ways that punishment's prioritised and the kind of
context around that and how we understand justice.
So of course as part of that I've also been interested in
injustice and how that's a consistent feature of our legal
system and how people resist it,which is one of the things I'm
(02:28):
particularly interested in. And to that end, I've been
involved with a coalition, the Coalition Against Punishment in
Scotland, which has attempted toraise some issues around our
system. And particularly some of the
things that the features of our criminal legal system where
we've got the highest prison population in Europe ahead of
(02:49):
the population got a terrible record of remanding people in
custody and really high levels of deaths in custody and drug
and alcohol related deaths. So there's a lot of things to
turn our attention to in that capacity.
And I suppose the sort of historical and contemporary
resonance around my work has kind of connected justice, the
(03:12):
law, the state, patriarchy. I've always had an interest in
Scottish history. And of course the Scottish witch
hands are a kind of clear indication of forms of injustice
that are part of our legacy. And as to that end, I'm a
trustee for an organization remembering the accused witches
(03:32):
of Scotland. So I think for me, I'm always
trying to make connections between theory, politics and
activism. Great.
Thank you so much. Your project that got our
attention is Memorializing injustice, and that's through
Liver Home Trust Fellowship. What were your goals when you
(03:54):
started that project? What I was really interested in
finding out was to try and learnmore about some of the campaigns
that were emerging across Scotland to remember those
accused under the Witchcraft Actin Scotland, which was in place
between 1563 and 1736 predominantly, and which
resulted in around at least 4000people, 85% of them being women,
(04:19):
being accused of witchcraft. And although the figures are
unclear, at least 2500 being executed.
And so I was interested in what the wider impacts of the witch
hunts and those executions mightbe because obviously they would
have resonated extensively across Scotland.
But it was an area of history that people didn't seem to know
very much about. But there had certainly been a
(04:42):
significant resurgence in interest in this part of
history. And I think really you could
trace that for the last maybe 10years or so.
So what I was interested in was how did these campaigns attempt
to take the lives of those people who have often been, you
know, concealed people, don't know their names, don't know
very much about them, take theirlives and try and make them
(05:04):
grievable, try and remember themand bring them back into our
contemporary world. And as part of that, I was
interested in looking at the different forms of
memorialisation that were takingplace and how the stories of
those people who had been accused were actually
transformed through the work of remembering them.
And I was really interested in the fact that there was a lot of
(05:25):
creative work going on to try and find appropriate ways to
remember these people and their lives.
And as part of that, I suppose Iwas also keen to find out if
those campaigns and this memory work actually had an impact on
the local communities that they were taking place within.
And how some of the fact that these histories have been
(05:46):
concealed and were now being brought to the fore was actually
shaping people's understanding of justice, the people that were
involved in the campaigns and the wider community around that.
So for me, the idea of how we understand justice and how the
fact that this past, our historyhas been concealed and now
people are trying to find out more about it and the fact that
(06:08):
these awful injustices happened,it was part of this, of the
focus of the project. And I was very fortunate that I
got funding from the Leverpume Trust to do a fellowship and
look into that in more detail. When did the campaigns to
remember the witch trials begin?Well, I think that it's a really
(06:30):
interesting question that you ask because I would initially
have said probably quite recently, but as I'd looked into
the topic, I became aware that even at the time of the witch
hunts, there were people speaking out against them.
Not very many, and it was a risky thing to do, but there
were, and that's another part ofhistory that I think as people
have been investigating it a little bit further, they've
(06:51):
actually found out more of the people who tried to resist it.
So I think that's very interesting and important for us
to know. And I think it also signifies
the fact that that there are lots of power dynamics in place
when we try to remember and there's been lots of power
dynamics in place about what we forget.
(07:12):
So, you know, for me, some of this process of remembering and
memorializing actually involves a kind of counter memory work to
challenge some of the official historical narratives that are
in place. But across Scotland, the other
thing is that there are a numberof memorials, not that many
considering the number of peoplewho were executed and the extent
(07:33):
of the witch hunts that took place, but they've been there
for many years. Some of them were not quite sure
when they were put in place. They're often referred to as
witches stones, and some of themsimply mark the potential sites
of execution of the accused. But others definitely seem to
act as memorials to the dead. And one of the most well known,
(07:55):
for example, is the witches wellon the estplanade at Edinburgh
Castle, which is where most of the accused were executed and
that dates back to 1894. So there has been an ongoing
interest, I suppose, at different points in time.
And you could define that as part of the campaigns that I've,
I've been interested in campaigns.
(08:15):
A difficult term to use because a lot of the people that I've
spoken to would say I'm not a campaigner, I'm just an ordinary
interested member of the community who wants to right a
wrong. So that's I suppose one of the
things that I've had to kind of take into account with the
project. But the more contemporary ones
that I suppose more recently youcould date back to 2004 where we
(08:40):
actually saw the pardon of 81 people and their cats under the
Barons Court of Preston Grange and Dolphinston in Scotland,
where under the sort of some strange Baron court system that
was actually abolished in 2004 and that local community was
actually able to enact a pardon.So again, there there has been
(09:03):
work going on for some time. And I think again, the more
contemporary work that's been going on perhaps dates back to
the Swiss government's official pardon that was granted to Anna
Goldie, who is seen to perhaps the last person executed as a
witch in Europe and she was granted an official pardon.
And following that, there was some work done in the UK to
(09:25):
lobby the Justice secretary at the time to get a postings
pardon for people across the UK.That didn't succeed.
But by that point we did have a Scottish Parliament that had
been established in Scotland. And so there were
representations to that in 2008,again calling on the Scottish
Government to take the necessaryaction to grant a posthumous
(09:47):
pardon to everybody who'd been convicted in Scotland under the
witchcraft legislation. But that wasn't successful.
But it did generate conversations around monuments
and perhaps a memorial. And I think that since then
there has been evidence of different examples of memorials
that have been set up in different parts of the country.
(10:08):
And it perhaps follows on from these conversations that were
generated at that point and the sort of things that were
happening internationally. So that's a long answer to yeah,
but that's. Great.
I, it's interesting we're, you know, Speaking of Europe, but
some of those states that you mentioned, you know, there was
some activity happening in the US and New England because
(10:31):
Rebecca Nurse, her monument wentup right at the end of the 19th
century on her homestead. And then in the early 2000s,
there was a gentleman in Connecticut named Tony Grigo who
was working, trying to get an exoneration for the accused
there. That didn't happen till 2023.
You've mentioned remembering theaccused witches of Scotland.
(10:53):
What can you tell us about that campaign and how did you get
involved with that? So this was a group that was set
up in Fife. They've been going for a number
of years and that was one of theareas where there was a high
number of people were executed and accused.
And it was a small group of people that got together to
(11:16):
initially try to find a way to remember the accused witches of
Fife. And they set up a conference and
they held their first conference.
They've had a number of conferences since then.
In 2019, they were called at that point Fife, which is
remembered. And I had gone along to the
conference with a friend. I was really interested in what
was happening and it was an opportunity to hear other
(11:39):
interested people speaking aboutthe witch hunts.
And there was also a lot of discussion there about how we
could remember and what might bean appropriate way of taking
action to make some reparation to the fact that people didn't
know about this history and how could that be made more public.
So at that point I had gone along, got involved and they
(12:03):
subsequently, because I think there was such an interest in
their campaign, it then shifted to being remembering the accused
witches of Scotland and it's a more national focus now.
The key aims were to try and obtain an apology from the state
and the Church of Scotland for the witch hunts.
(12:23):
They have a strong emphasis on education and informing the
public, trying to take some of this information into schools
and also to campaign for a a National Memorial for those
accused. So I didn't stay in Fife at the
time, but when COVID happened and there was obviously all the
(12:45):
lockdowns, they went on to Zoom and that meant that those of us
that didn't stay near Fife were able to get involved in the
campaign. And they've been very active
ever since. As I say, it's a small group of
people and they do a lot of public information and also
research. So they've been involved in
(13:05):
going back to some of the archives across the country.
And as part of that, as I think as people are doing that,
they're discovering more people who were accused or executed
whose records have not yet been fully explored.
It's so amazing what a few people are able to do with this
(13:27):
concealed history and the persistence.
What are some things that the campaigns have in common?
There have been a number of groups that have been active
across Scotland with some to some extent.
Some are sort of more national. For example, there's the Witches
of Scotland as well, who are a group that take a national
(13:47):
perspective and others are much more locally based.
They've emerged from their localcommunity, perhaps sometimes
with a historical group or heritage group.
And so there are slightly different emphasis in different
places, but there have been a lot of issues in common.
And I think that the sheer aim across all of them is really to
(14:09):
try and educate, inform and findan appropriate way to
memorialise. I think that the sense of
injustice that everybody who is involved in this work has the
sort of thing that motivates andprompts them to take things
forward. And I think the fact that in
many areas people don't know about this part of history as
(14:30):
again, a great motivator and trying to get that information
out. I think some of the things that
they've got in common is the recognition that this part of
history has often been hidden. And so how do we find out more?
And I think that resonates with other work that's been going on
(14:52):
in the last probably 10 years orso in Scotland, again, around
our kind of history of colonialism and the legacy of
slavery. And sort of trying to think
about appropriate ways to address and understand that.
Despite this growing recognition, we still find that
in a lot of local museums and local areas, there's a great
(15:14):
deal of information available, but not about this particular
part of history. So I think people have taken it
upon themselves to try and explore why that might be the
case and how they can address that.
I think the main thing that drives people is an attempt to
challenge some of the kind of stereotypes and misinformation
(15:34):
that's been put around about thewitch hunts and who were witches
and what that means. And so I think a shared approach
is to try and highlight the lives of these ordinary people
and the fact that this injusticehappened to ordinary people.
And one of the things that has always struck me in the work
(15:56):
that I've been doing is the way that when people get involved,
and it's very often in women that are leading these
campaigns, they talk about this sort of resonance that they feel
with those who've been accused this sort of shared, I suppose,
back. There's lots of things that they
(16:16):
perhaps identify as shared qualities of being a woman and
encountering various forms of injustice that's sometimes goes
beyond that for people to feel almost, they describe as though
they've been haunted by this injustice of the past.
And once they understand and cover the facts of the lives of
some of the people who've been accused, they want to help make
(16:39):
their voices heard. So there's this thing about
saying their names and making sure that their names are spoken
and that they're reclaimed as ordinary people who were the
victims of a grave injustice. So I think that that's very much
a feature. And obviously there's been a lot
of conversations and discussionsabout, well, once we can
(17:00):
identify this history and we want to do something about it
and address this injustice, thenwhat's an appropriate way to
remember and to memorialise? And and then that's not without
his challenges think because that can take so many different
forms. But I think there definitely is
(17:20):
an attempt to find appropriate ways to remember and memorialize
the past. And as I said, it's taken lots
of interest in artistic and creative forms.
I was struck when you just said that people have this feeling
they're being haunted by the injustice because we've heard
(17:41):
those exact terms used by campaigners.
We've talked to you in the States that they feel like the
women that were accused or the men that were accused are
haunting their lives and that they almost speak to them
because that injustice just, it stays with you once you know
(18:05):
about it. Yeah, definitely.
And I think when people are campaigning and it's something
that they're working on in theirlocal area and it's who the
resonance with the past, it's the same streets in the same
places. And sometimes these areas
haven't changed a great deal that people in the local area
(18:26):
still have the same names. And there definitely is
something about that kind of connection with the past.
I like Avery Gordon's work. She talks about how those
injustices of the past manifest themselves in the present, and
they call for action. And I certainly feel that when
people are gripped in this way, this is what they want.
(18:49):
They want something to be done. And I think it's a really
powerful kind of emotional connection that many people
describe. Are there any particular goals
of the campaigns that really stand out?
Definitely the work on educationas being important and I think
that's ongoing. It's not something that's
included in our school curriculum, but I do know that
(19:11):
there has been a lot of work done about trying to think about
how this might be taken into schools.
And I think that in Scotland in particular, there have been
calls for an apology. So that was definitely something
that was called for and fortunately that was successful.
So in 2022 we had an apology from, at the time, our first
(19:33):
Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who apologised on behalf of the
state, but the wrongs that were done to the accused and those
executed. And we also had an apology from
the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
She was a really important, I think, acknowledgement of what
happened in the past. There has been quite a lot of
work done around an attempt to get a pardon.
(19:55):
That's not the goal of all the groups and but that's currently,
I think it's stalled at this present point in time.
But there has been a lot of workdone, which in itself has
generated quite a lot of publicity for the campaigns.
And as I say, I think across thecountry where these campaigns
have taken, I think that the ways of remembering are the kind
(20:17):
of sort of fundamental, how do we remember?
How do we find some forum to name those who were accused and
executed and? What would be a fitting way to
remember them? So there has been some successes
in those different directions. As I say, the apology has been
made. So that's something that I think
(20:39):
has been very successful and a very powerful result of the
campaigns in local areas. Quite regularly now we're seeing
new forms of memorialisation being unveiled, so some groups
have been successful in installing, for example,
(20:59):
information boards which either in churchyards or in museums or
inappropriate places that refer to the events of the past.
And I suppose that that in itself would generate further
work. There's been a lot of public
talks that have taken place thatseem to be really well attended.
This is an area that does seem to generate a lot of interest
(21:21):
amongst the general public and Ithink one of the other things
has been the importance of collaboration.
So there have been a lot of different ways of working with
other groups. So for example working with the
church, with artists and local councillors.
There's been films, there's a lot of books that have been
(21:42):
written, fiction and non fictionand work that's going on
collectively to try and raise awareness and highlight this
injustice that's been done. There's a lot of evidence of
acknowledgement rowing and when you mentioned the apologies,
those are so significant becausewhen leadership says this
(22:06):
shouldn't have happened, it's sopowerful.
To have those powerful institutions making that
acknowledgement, it does have a great deal of power behind it.
I don't know what benefit it might have to those who were
executed. And that's one of the questions
that is often raised in conversations and discussions.
(22:29):
But it it is I think it really important.
And I'm aware with the work thatyou've been doing as well
globally and the ongoing contemporary nature of witch
hunts that continue across the world, that having some kind of
formal acknowledgement that we are really sorry that this past
(22:50):
happened here. We don't want to see it
happening again. It's really important.
We have been told by many of themodern advocates against witch
hunting that it is significant when Scotland has an apology,
when Connecticut has an absolution, that those things
(23:11):
resound around the world and andimprove their chances of making
change in their nations. Hopefully we've.
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. How have the people of Scotland
generally reacted to these campaigns?
(23:32):
I think it's definitely generated a lot of interest.
And I suppose that it's difficult to say to what extent
that's gone beyond people who are perhaps already interested
in either injustice or there hasbeen a lot of interest in I
suppose all things which in the last few years as well, some of
(23:53):
that being very kind of commercially orientated.
But it certainly has been notable.
And I think that, as I say, whenthere are talks, public talks,
anything like that seems to be really well attended.
And in many ways, I think that some of the issues that are
(24:13):
raised by discussions, conversations, and this sharing
of information about our historical past, it does
resonate with some contemporary concerns around justice and
injustice. And for me, what's really
important is the way that it highlights the fact that the law
isn't always right or just. And we can see over the last 10
(24:39):
years or so there have been lotsof concerns around justice, some
of that surround gender based violence.
And we've seen the sort of rise of campaigns to try and address
that. In the UK.
There has been quite a lot of concern around the policing of
violence against women and gender in general.
And I suppose that's raised questions for people again,
(25:02):
about the role of the state and the sort of wider political
system. So I think that having
conversations that allow us to explore some of the injustices
of the past resonate with some of the concerns that people have
today. And I suppose what that's one of
the things that really interested me was about the
(25:24):
extent to which when people found out about this historical
past and this historical injustice.
So how did that shape their understanding of what was
happening in in the world today and in in Scotland at the
moment? It's quite evident that there
has been a lot of political protest around different issues,
(25:45):
particularly some of the things that are going on
internationally. And we've seen an increasing
response to police the protest. And I think that that highlights
that there are some questions around what we mean by justice
in a so-called liberal democracy.
(26:06):
When we understand some of the things that went on in the past,
I think it helps us to perhaps put that into some perspective
as well. Are the campaigns revealing
trauma from the witch hunts? I think they are, yes.
I think just in terms of the, asI said before, that emotive
(26:28):
power that people experience when they find out about them
and they consider some of their effects that this might have had
on their own community, I think it's something that's not really
been discussed. There is some work that I am
aware of that's been going on, led by different individuals,
perhaps from a more kind of psychotherapeutic background,
(26:51):
who have attempted to bring particular forms of healing to
those places and that takes different forms.
Sometimes that's done with quitea spiritual approach to try and
kind of heal the traumas of the past.
But I think that there is a recognition that, especially in
(27:13):
Scotland, the fact that this happened across the country to
such an extent and in places it happened several times so that
the witch hunts came and they came back and they affected
large numbers of people in what was a small population.
We killed in Scotland about fivetimes more people than our
(27:34):
neighbors in England, even though we had a smaller
population. So the intensity of the witch
hunts in Scotland couldn't have failed to have an impact on the
people living there at that time.
And I think that there's a recognition that the fact that
that resulted in people being displaced, people living in fear
(27:57):
it it it would undoubtedly have had an effect.
And what I suppose we don't fully understand is the impact
that that's had on successive generations.
And I think that it's interesting that for some of
that work that's come in and being taken place from that more
psychotherapeutic process has been interesting and probably
(28:18):
badly needed. We had a real rupture in
Scotland about the this sort of emphasis on the creation of this
godly society. And so the churches had such a
lot of power in the way that they were able to enforce sort
of moral and social order that, yeah, there's undoubtedly a
legacy from those times. And and sealing the history is
(28:42):
an aspect of the trauma. I would imagine that that was
very much the case. It is interesting how it made.
Recently I've been visiting somesmall areas in the West Coast of
Scotland, small towns which did actually have witch hunts and
had people executed. And I know that because some
people have written books about them and they have gone to the
(29:04):
archives and they're able to tell us about them.
And I've visited the museums andI've been so surprised that
there's no markers in the town or in those areas to denote
this. There's a history that's
depicted in the local museums, which is obviously been really
painstakingly presented and it goes right back to the serf
(29:25):
needless times up until the 1990s.
And this point in history at some of that just seems to be
missing. And I do think that that's
interesting. And as I say, it's only really
put while I've been doing this work and sort of looking at how
we will realize that I would actually have been aware that
(29:46):
this part of history is missing.And it's interesting to to
wonder why that might be the case.
But I agree with you, Sarah. I think it it was concealed.
And I think we also see that in the fact that many of the
records are missing or destroyed, perhaps been
destroyed of this period. We were very fortunate that the
(30:07):
University of Edinburgh has donea lot of work by creating a
survey of Scottish witchcraft. And it's a fantastic resource
that has an interactive map. It can tell you where the trials
took place and where people died.
But there's lots and lots of gaps.
There's nearly 700 people who are unknown.
(30:28):
Their names aren't even known because we don't have the
records. There are some places where
there's just references to a group of witches who were
executed, but we don't know how many.
We don't know who these people were.
And I think that that's also what that's an indication I
think of. Perhaps it wasn't that long
after the event that people realised that what had happened
(30:50):
was an absolute abomination and so they tried to conceal the
evidence. But it's also what motivates the
people that are trying to find out about these lives that have
been eradicated. And that's the thing that seems
to drive so many people to try and find out what happened.
(31:13):
Yeah, it's a lot of your points just really resonate with what
we experience over here in the US There people are searching
for the stories and to try to grasp how did this happen, who
did it happen to? And there's such a lack of
presentation of the history in museums.
(31:36):
It's in a lot of books that are on shelves, but it's not
presented widely. And Austin, I my question it, it
probably needs to change a little bit.
My question has been when are you going to include this
history? But the real question is why
(31:58):
aren't we? Why aren't we?
Yeah, because if you could answer that correctly, then it's
not when, because then you're going to take the steps to get
it included and there is a an excuse for not presenting it
anymore. Yeah, I certainly think that the
(32:20):
there's something that seems to have perhaps there is a momentum
at this point in time. I think it in Scotland anyway to
take that forward. And I think that, yeah, people
are asking those kinds of questions.
And I think also the interest inparallel between the fact that
(32:40):
this printing press was one of the things that helped spread
the witch hunts because people had the information about which
is in the publication of different tracts that they used
at this point is perhaps the fact that we now have access to
more archives, the more digital archives.
And people are sort of trying tolook back into their heritage
(33:05):
and tracing their family trees that there are more resources
available to people. And I think that that in itself
is also along with this momentumabout this great injustice was
done and we don't know about it.So let's you know, why are we
not doing something and what canwe do?
And there are now resources, I think developing all the time to
(33:27):
allow us and enable us to do that.
So hopefully I see some shifts. And I do love the creativity
that is bringing that development.
You've mentioned that a few times.
There's so many different avenues and creative ways for
recognizing and memorializing this history.
(33:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that that speaks to me as well about the emotional
resonance that people have, thatthere has been some amazing work
that's been done in terms of poetry, artwork, plays and
presentations, all sorts of mediums to try and find ways to
express this, what people are feeling as a way of
(34:12):
memorialising and remembering. Yeah, it's very powerful.
And I think that that in itself serves a function for people to
try and generate that energy in a creative direction.
Because I think with all injustice, and I think that
that's the thing with all injustice, you can get stuck at
the point of not knowing how to deal with it and how do we
(34:35):
respond. And it can sometimes feel quite
overwhelming. But I think that the way that
this is sort of generated collective work around trying to
take this forward has been really powerful.
It creates A solidarity with thedead, but also with people now
(34:57):
living. Over here in the states, Salem's
obviously an exception to the rule because everybody knows
about Salem. But the other witch trials in
Massachusetts and the ones in Connecticut like nobody knows
about, and it's only been changing in the last few years.
(35:19):
20 years ago, the movement to exonerate the Connecticut
accused started, but that took 18 years to get past because
nobody knew that Connecticut hadwitch trials.
Even the people of Connecticut, it been suppressed so well,
there were late 19th century writers who were writing that
(35:42):
Connecticut didn't have witch trials at all.
And we now know that at least 11people were executed and dozens
more were accused. So this whole concealing of
memory thing really struck me when you were talking about
that. And we're just now starting to
(36:04):
see people grasp that Connecticut had its own witch
trials and Boston had its own witch trials outside of Salem.
How have these campaigns Have they had an impact on citizen
understanding of witch trial history in Scotland?
Yeah, yes, I definitely think that they are.
(36:25):
And we're also affected by, I think it's also been interesting
in Scotland to see what's happening elsewhere and to find
out the fact that there's something in the fact that this
is a shared experience that's really important, even though we
were at the kind of high end of the hunts over here.
(36:46):
But yes, I think that it does. I think that there are, it's
difficult to get a sense of the extent to which the general
public has kind of engaged with some of this.
There has, as I say, there's been a lot of interest, some of
it maybe is from people who would be interested in these
kinds of issues. Anyway.
(37:06):
It's not been without contentionbecause, and I think that for
instance, one of the campaigns across the UK to try and
petition for a pardon, the issuewas about, I suppose the dissent
was what's the relevance for that today?
But I think when you make the case that there is quite clearly
(37:28):
relevance for today, then peopledo seem to understand that.
I I think that the concealed history, I think it does have an
impact on how people understand who they are and who are we
today. I think that's one of the things
(37:48):
we can say about Scotland. We have very sometimes
stereotyped views about Scottishexceptionalism and the fact that
we think that we have a particular international sort of
outlook and approach. And I think that situations like
the fact that the witch hunts were so high in Scotland, the
numbers executed were so high that we still have an incredibly
(38:11):
punitive criminal legal system. Do you raise questions?
There's so much I'm finding in common that you're mentioning in
Scotland with what we're experiencing in the States.
There's that punitive nature to the States, our incarceration
(38:32):
rate is sky high, and that American exceptionalism still
governs a lot of how our leadersbehave.
And there's of movement under foot here to stop teaching a lot
of the more negative aspects of American history and focus on
(38:57):
the positive aspects and presenting the country in the
best light. I'd be interested in asking you,
Josh. So I'm aware that you're
there'll be some challenges ahead for you in that respect.
And how do you see that you might be able to resist that?
Just the more we can talk, the more we can get these victims
(39:19):
names out there and their stories and help people
understand the injustice of the witch trials and how that
relates to the injustices we're seeing today.
I think it's, it's very important not to be silent right
now about aspects of our historythat might not be the most
positive, but they're the ones that we learn the most from, at
(39:45):
least in my opinion, or negativeHistory has so much to teach us
about human nature, human behavior, how people respond in
times of great fear and uncertainty.
So I think just, you know, podcasting, having live video
(40:06):
events that people can attend and learn about witch trials,
writing about it, blogging aboutit.
Just shouting from the mountaintops.
Hey, this has happened before. What we're seeing now, we can
actually step in and stop some of us.
Yeah. I would add too that your
project name Memorializing Injustice, that says so much
(40:32):
there. And Josh mentioned the injustice
just now, and we've been talkingabout this injustice.
And I think there's still so much stigma around was it in
just what is justice? Who deserves justice?
We have to face that there is injustice in this world that is
(40:52):
still being perpetrated right infront of us.
And we don't want to have to be memorializing that in 100 years,
but we are going to be. So I think the more that we
discuss injustice, and I think cultural criminology is
something that we need to understand more and we need to
(41:12):
look at how do we apply criminology to witch hunts and
to injustices. So your work is really
important. Our podcast exists because of
the multitude of people facing the situation, whether they're
have researched it and are talking about what happened or
(41:33):
they're on the ground now tryingto find justice for modern
survivors and victims. So we just all need to keep
picking up the dirt. Yeah, I certainly think your
podcast does have a big impact. And just to plug it as well, I
was listening to your summary ofyour 100 episodes.
And I thought that that was so powerful in identifying the
(41:55):
themes that you've had been speaking to people about over
your previous episodes and the fact that though they all spoke
about things that we need to think about today.
So yeah, I definitely encourage people to go and listen back to
that as well. Yeah, thank you.
(42:16):
There's a quote that I read in an article about your project.
You said restitution for historical injustice is
essential for an effective justice system.
Can you explain what you meant by that?
I suppose for me that that was one of the sort of reflections
(42:39):
that I had as I began it. And I'm always very dubious and
cynical about the fact that the system can put right the wrongs
of the past. And I think, as you mentioned,
we don't want to be in a situation where that's the case
because the people who they directly affected are gone.
But there's something about being able to acknowledge when
(43:01):
things are are not right and when things are in just.
And I think that there is something about it, the system
claims to be just, it has to be able to accept that if there has
been something that has gone wrong.
And I think that in the UK, we've had a number of large
(43:24):
public scandals around particular things that have gone
very wrong, and it's taken people a long time to get any
recognition that that was the case.
And so I think for me, it's thatacknowledgement and then an
attempt to put right by dealing with the contemporary situation
(43:48):
that's important. And I think that that's where
the idea of some form of restitution is crucial.
We're dealing with systems that make a lot of claims, have a lot
of power. And I think that's the other
issue. It's this of power that is held
by the state in the past has been held by the church.
(44:10):
That's maybe it's slightly different today, but our
enforcement agencies still retain a huge amount of power
and authority. And so they can't assume that
when things go wrong, it's acceptable to cover it up or to
(44:30):
conceal it. Thank you for this wonderful
conversation today. Thank you very much for the
opportunity to speak with you and to be part of this.
And as I said, I think that yourpodcast is a really powerful
resource, and it's been so good to hear about some of the work
that you've done in the States to address some of those issues
(44:53):
that we've been talking about. And I suppose that I try to take
a positive out of this, that while we are dealing with
something that's a really difficult issue, it talks about
a very dark past. But the fact that in some ways
people are coming together in solidarity and trying to take
(45:15):
collective action to to do something good for their
communities is what makes it worthwhile.
And I suppose there's something important to hang on to.
Thank you so very much. It's been a real honor to have
you here, so thank you. So I was sitting at my kitchen
(45:36):
table today drinking coffee justlike this, and the mailman rang
the door. I wasn't the person to jump up
and go to the door, but someone in my household signed for an
international package. International.
And I'm like, well, we know who that's for, but I was so
puzzled. I'm like, what book am I
(45:57):
getting? Because usually it's a book for
a podcast episode of researching.
Yeah. And then I read Claire Campbell
and I knew that was designer of the Witches of Scotland tartan.
So that is what's in. Here.
(46:20):
That is what is in here, our organizations tartan piece, it's
right here. I'm so excited.
I'm so excited to be a part of this memorialization through
tartan and to have it and I haven't looked at it yet.
We're going to look at it here. What do you think?
Are you excited? I'm so excited.
(46:40):
I'm glad that you brought me in on this to watch the unboxing.
Here we go. I have to be careful because I
have to keep this packaging forever.
Oh yeah. It's a memento too.
All right, here we go. Is it?
(47:05):
There. Oh, it's in a special fancy
envelope with their logo on it. Yeah, I'm just going to pick up
this little card that Phil. Yeah, their little card.
That's the logo I saw. I'm so.
Excited W for Witches of Scotland?
Wow, how? Wonderful.
(47:26):
And is that a prickly Thistle? Yes.
Yes. Which is a manufacturer company.
That's the once you make the tartans.
Claire, Claire and Zoe, thank you.
This is so awesome. Oh, I caught a glimpse.
(47:49):
Oh, it's so. Soft actually look like.
It is amazing. It is amazing.
I. Like it a lot.
Once I drop the pen. Oh.
Oh, it's beautiful. It is beautiful.
Yeah, you wear that. I am.
(48:15):
Yes, perfect for your chilly Colorado winters.
Yeah, today's kind of chilly. It is only like 77° today, but.
Yeah. Chilly for the summer?
Yeah. No, I'm actually going to one of
the great things about them getting your piece from them as
(48:35):
you can do what you want with it.
And we're all going to share a little bit of this in our
organization. Our board members are all going
to have a a piece of this to share, so we really love Claire
and Zoe in Witches of Scotland. Their podcast has been a huge
inspiration to our work, especially in 2023 when we were
(48:57):
working on the exoneration of those accused of witchcraft in
Connecticut. Yeah, their whole campaign has
been inspiration. It was one of the drivers in US
starting the podcast was that they were using their podcast to
promote the pardon and apology and memorial for the Scottish
(49:21):
accused of witchcraft. And we're doing the same thing
in Connecticut. So we thought, hey, let's
podcast. Yeah, let's say really
illustrated to us that we can, we could highlight the advocates
around the world who are addressing the modern crisis of
witchcraft accusations. They have featured Leo Egue and
(49:43):
that led us to our work of interviewing advocates around
the world on our podcast, which is right now called The Thing
About Witch Hunts. Previously it was Witch Hunt
Podcast. Listening to Leo on the Witches
of Scotland podcast really got us interested, got him on our
(50:06):
radar and he's such an amazing person.
So very grateful to have that connection because of Witches of
Scotland basically introducing us even though they didn't know
it. Yeah, everyone probably has
listened to him on Witches of Scotland podcast, but check
those episodes out. Also, check out our episodes
(50:28):
interviewing Leo on The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
Yeah, and one of the great thrills we had last year was to
do a cross episode with the witches of Scotland.
So Claire and Zoe joined us and we released the same episode on
(50:49):
our podcast and that they did ontheir podcast and that was
fabulous. Yeah, theirs is titled
Connecticut Witch Trials and ours is titled Witch Hunt X
Witches of Scotland. So the other cool thing that
coming up for the Witches of Scotland is their new book that
is out in the UK and coming out in September, How to Kill a
(51:13):
Witch, A Guide for the Patriarchy.
It's coming out September 30th. I'm excited to read that too.
Me too. I've already pre-ordered my
copy. Yeah.
So you can also pre-order one inour bookshop.
It supports our nonprofit and witch hunts and that link is
(51:34):
bookshop.org/shop slash End Witch Hunts and our nonprofit is
End Witch hunts.org. I'm going to read from the
Scottish Register of Tartans, the Witches of Scotland tartan
description here. It says this design was created
to memorialize those who suffered as a result of the
(51:58):
Witchcraft Act 1563 to 1736 in Scotland.
This tartan will be woven to make products to help create a
living memorial. So this basically is the
realization of getting a memorial to the witches.
It's one that we can all wear and share, and people around the
world can see this memorial without having to travel.
(52:22):
Yeah, memorials are extremely important.
That's the beautiful thing aboutmemorials.
There's lots of ways to memorialize, and this is so
significant. So thank you Zoe and Claire, and
for whoever worked on this and had this phenomenal idea to
remember those victims this way.Want more Scottish witch trial
(52:43):
history and conversation? We have several other lovely
episodes with special experts onthe Scottish witch trials.
Go check them out now. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to the thing about witchhunts.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Today we're taking you across the Atlantic to Scotland, where
a remarkable movement is uncovering one of history's most
devastating and concealed injustices.
Between 1563 and 1736, Scotland's witch hunts claimed
(00:21):
at least 2500 lives, 85% of themwomen.
To put that in perspective, Scotland executed about five
times more people per capita than England, making it one of
the deadliest witch hunting regions in all of Europe.
Our guest today is Doctor Margaret Malik, a criminology
professor at the University of Sterling, who's been studying
(00:43):
these remembrance campaigns through her project
Memorializing Injustice. As Margaret will explain, this
is about much more than acknowledgement.
It's about understanding how historical trauma shapes us
today and why confronting injustice, past and present, is
essential for any society that claims to value justice.
(01:04):
We think you'll find some striking parallels between
what's happening in Scotland andthe witch trial remembrance
movements here in the United States.
So let's go to our conversation with Margaret Malik about
memorializing injustice. Welcome to the Thing About Witch
Hunts podcast. We are so excited to talk with
you today. Please introduce yourself and
(01:26):
tell us about your professional background.
Thank you. Well, it's great to be here with
you both. I'm Margaret Mala and I'm a
professor of criminology at the University of Sterling in
Scotland and I'm part of the Scottish Centre for Crime and
Justice Research. And I suppose in terms of my
background, my interest, I had an ongoing interest in
(01:47):
injustice, both social and legalfor many years.
And really for the past 30 yearsmy research and teaching has
examined the experiences of women in particular as they
encounter the sort of criminal legal system, both as victims or
survivors of gender based violence and also as
(02:08):
criminalised people. So I'm particularly interested
in the ways that punishment's prioritised and the kind of
context around that and how we understand justice.
So of course as part of that I've also been interested in
injustice and how that's a consistent feature of our legal
system and how people resist it,which is one of the things I'm
(02:28):
particularly interested in. And to that end, I've been
involved with a coalition, the Coalition Against Punishment in
Scotland, which has attempted toraise some issues around our
system. And particularly some of the
things that the features of our criminal legal system where
we've got the highest prison population in Europe ahead of
(02:49):
the population got a terrible record of remanding people in
custody and really high levels of deaths in custody and drug
and alcohol related deaths. So there's a lot of things to
turn our attention to in that capacity.
And I suppose the sort of historical and contemporary
resonance around my work has kind of connected justice, the
(03:12):
law, the state, patriarchy. I've always had an interest in
Scottish history. And of course the Scottish witch
hands are a kind of clear indication of forms of injustice
that are part of our legacy. And as to that end, I'm a
trustee for an organization remembering the accused witches
(03:32):
of Scotland. So I think for me, I'm always
trying to make connections between theory, politics and
activism. Great.
Thank you so much. Your project that got our
attention is Memorializing injustice, and that's through
Liver Home Trust Fellowship. What were your goals when you
(03:54):
started that project? What I was really interested in
finding out was to try and learnmore about some of the campaigns
that were emerging across Scotland to remember those
accused under the Witchcraft Actin Scotland, which was in place
between 1563 and 1736 predominantly, and which
resulted in around at least 4000people, 85% of them being women,
(04:19):
being accused of witchcraft. And although the figures are
unclear, at least 2500 being executed.
And so I was interested in what the wider impacts of the witch
hunts and those executions mightbe because obviously they would
have resonated extensively across Scotland.
But it was an area of history that people didn't seem to know
very much about. But there had certainly been a
(04:42):
significant resurgence in interest in this part of
history. And I think really you could
trace that for the last maybe 10years or so.
So what I was interested in was how did these campaigns attempt
to take the lives of those people who have often been, you
know, concealed people, don't know their names, don't know
very much about them, take theirlives and try and make them
(05:04):
grievable, try and remember themand bring them back into our
contemporary world. And as part of that, I was
interested in looking at the different forms of
memorialisation that were takingplace and how the stories of
those people who had been accused were actually
transformed through the work of remembering them.
And I was really interested in the fact that there was a lot of
(05:25):
creative work going on to try and find appropriate ways to
remember these people and their lives.
And as part of that, I suppose Iwas also keen to find out if
those campaigns and this memory work actually had an impact on
the local communities that they were taking place within.
And how some of the fact that these histories have been
(05:46):
concealed and were now being brought to the fore was actually
shaping people's understanding of justice, the people that were
involved in the campaigns and the wider community around that.
So for me, the idea of how we understand justice and how the
fact that this past, our historyhas been concealed and now
people are trying to find out more about it and the fact that
(06:08):
these awful injustices happened,it was part of this, of the
focus of the project. And I was very fortunate that I
got funding from the Leverpume Trust to do a fellowship and
look into that in more detail. When did the campaigns to
remember the witch trials begin?Well, I think that it's a really
(06:30):
interesting question that you ask because I would initially
have said probably quite recently, but as I'd looked into
the topic, I became aware that even at the time of the witch
hunts, there were people speaking out against them.
Not very many, and it was a risky thing to do, but there
were, and that's another part ofhistory that I think as people
have been investigating it a little bit further, they've
(06:51):
actually found out more of the people who tried to resist it.
So I think that's very interesting and important for us
to know. And I think it also signifies
the fact that that there are lots of power dynamics in place
when we try to remember and there's been lots of power
dynamics in place about what we forget.
(07:12):
So, you know, for me, some of this process of remembering and
memorializing actually involves a kind of counter memory work to
challenge some of the official historical narratives that are
in place. But across Scotland, the other
thing is that there are a numberof memorials, not that many
considering the number of peoplewho were executed and the extent
(07:33):
of the witch hunts that took place, but they've been there
for many years. Some of them were not quite sure
when they were put in place. They're often referred to as
witches stones, and some of themsimply mark the potential sites
of execution of the accused. But others definitely seem to
act as memorials to the dead. And one of the most well known,
(07:55):
for example, is the witches wellon the estplanade at Edinburgh
Castle, which is where most of the accused were executed and
that dates back to 1894. So there has been an ongoing
interest, I suppose, at different points in time.
And you could define that as part of the campaigns that I've,
I've been interested in campaigns.
(08:15):
A difficult term to use because a lot of the people that I've
spoken to would say I'm not a campaigner, I'm just an ordinary
interested member of the community who wants to right a
wrong. So that's I suppose one of the
things that I've had to kind of take into account with the
project. But the more contemporary ones
that I suppose more recently youcould date back to 2004 where we
(08:40):
actually saw the pardon of 81 people and their cats under the
Barons Court of Preston Grange and Dolphinston in Scotland,
where under the sort of some strange Baron court system that
was actually abolished in 2004 and that local community was
actually able to enact a pardon.So again, there there has been
(09:03):
work going on for some time. And I think again, the more
contemporary work that's been going on perhaps dates back to
the Swiss government's official pardon that was granted to Anna
Goldie, who is seen to perhaps the last person executed as a
witch in Europe and she was granted an official pardon.
And following that, there was some work done in the UK to
(09:25):
lobby the Justice secretary at the time to get a postings
pardon for people across the UK.That didn't succeed.
But by that point we did have a Scottish Parliament that had
been established in Scotland. And so there were
representations to that in 2008,again calling on the Scottish
Government to take the necessaryaction to grant a posthumous
(09:47):
pardon to everybody who'd been convicted in Scotland under the
witchcraft legislation. But that wasn't successful.
But it did generate conversations around monuments
and perhaps a memorial. And I think that since then
there has been evidence of different examples of memorials
that have been set up in different parts of the country.
(10:08):
And it perhaps follows on from these conversations that were
generated at that point and the sort of things that were
happening internationally. So that's a long answer to yeah,
but that's. Great.
I, it's interesting we're, you know, Speaking of Europe, but
some of those states that you mentioned, you know, there was
some activity happening in the US and New England because
(10:31):
Rebecca Nurse, her monument wentup right at the end of the 19th
century on her homestead. And then in the early 2000s,
there was a gentleman in Connecticut named Tony Grigo who
was working, trying to get an exoneration for the accused
there. That didn't happen till 2023.
You've mentioned remembering theaccused witches of Scotland.
(10:53):
What can you tell us about that campaign and how did you get
involved with that? So this was a group that was set
up in Fife. They've been going for a number
of years and that was one of theareas where there was a high
number of people were executed and accused.
And it was a small group of people that got together to
(11:16):
initially try to find a way to remember the accused witches of
Fife. And they set up a conference and
they held their first conference.
They've had a number of conferences since then.
In 2019, they were called at that point Fife, which is
remembered. And I had gone along to the
conference with a friend. I was really interested in what
was happening and it was an opportunity to hear other
(11:39):
interested people speaking aboutthe witch hunts.
And there was also a lot of discussion there about how we
could remember and what might bean appropriate way of taking
action to make some reparation to the fact that people didn't
know about this history and how could that be made more public.
So at that point I had gone along, got involved and they
(12:03):
subsequently, because I think there was such an interest in
their campaign, it then shifted to being remembering the accused
witches of Scotland and it's a more national focus now.
The key aims were to try and obtain an apology from the state
and the Church of Scotland for the witch hunts.
(12:23):
They have a strong emphasis on education and informing the
public, trying to take some of this information into schools
and also to campaign for a a National Memorial for those
accused. So I didn't stay in Fife at the
time, but when COVID happened and there was obviously all the
(12:45):
lockdowns, they went on to Zoom and that meant that those of us
that didn't stay near Fife were able to get involved in the
campaign. And they've been very active
ever since. As I say, it's a small group of
people and they do a lot of public information and also
research. So they've been involved in
(13:05):
going back to some of the archives across the country.
And as part of that, as I think as people are doing that,
they're discovering more people who were accused or executed
whose records have not yet been fully explored.
It's so amazing what a few people are able to do with this
(13:27):
concealed history and the persistence.
What are some things that the campaigns have in common?
There have been a number of groups that have been active
across Scotland with some to some extent.
Some are sort of more national. For example, there's the Witches
of Scotland as well, who are a group that take a national
(13:47):
perspective and others are much more locally based.
They've emerged from their localcommunity, perhaps sometimes
with a historical group or heritage group.
And so there are slightly different emphasis in different
places, but there have been a lot of issues in common.
And I think that the sheer aim across all of them is really to
(14:09):
try and educate, inform and findan appropriate way to
memorialise. I think that the sense of
injustice that everybody who is involved in this work has the
sort of thing that motivates andprompts them to take things
forward. And I think the fact that in
many areas people don't know about this part of history as
(14:30):
again, a great motivator and trying to get that information
out. I think some of the things that
they've got in common is the recognition that this part of
history has often been hidden. And so how do we find out more?
And I think that resonates with other work that's been going on
(14:52):
in the last probably 10 years orso in Scotland, again, around
our kind of history of colonialism and the legacy of
slavery. And sort of trying to think
about appropriate ways to address and understand that.
Despite this growing recognition, we still find that
in a lot of local museums and local areas, there's a great
(15:14):
deal of information available, but not about this particular
part of history. So I think people have taken it
upon themselves to try and explore why that might be the
case and how they can address that.
I think the main thing that drives people is an attempt to
challenge some of the kind of stereotypes and misinformation
(15:34):
that's been put around about thewitch hunts and who were witches
and what that means. And so I think a shared approach
is to try and highlight the lives of these ordinary people
and the fact that this injusticehappened to ordinary people.
And one of the things that has always struck me in the work
(15:56):
that I've been doing is the way that when people get involved,
and it's very often in women that are leading these
campaigns, they talk about this sort of resonance that they feel
with those who've been accused this sort of shared, I suppose,
back. There's lots of things that they
(16:16):
perhaps identify as shared qualities of being a woman and
encountering various forms of injustice that's sometimes goes
beyond that for people to feel almost, they describe as though
they've been haunted by this injustice of the past.
And once they understand and cover the facts of the lives of
some of the people who've been accused, they want to help make
(16:39):
their voices heard. So there's this thing about
saying their names and making sure that their names are spoken
and that they're reclaimed as ordinary people who were the
victims of a grave injustice. So I think that that's very much
a feature. And obviously there's been a lot
of conversations and discussionsabout, well, once we can
(17:00):
identify this history and we want to do something about it
and address this injustice, thenwhat's an appropriate way to
remember and to memorialise? And and then that's not without
his challenges think because that can take so many different
forms. But I think there definitely is
(17:20):
an attempt to find appropriate ways to remember and memorialize
the past. And as I said, it's taken lots
of interest in artistic and creative forms.
I was struck when you just said that people have this feeling
they're being haunted by the injustice because we've heard
(17:41):
those exact terms used by campaigners.
We've talked to you in the States that they feel like the
women that were accused or the men that were accused are
haunting their lives and that they almost speak to them
because that injustice just, it stays with you once you know
(18:05):
about it. Yeah, definitely.
And I think when people are campaigning and it's something
that they're working on in theirlocal area and it's who the
resonance with the past, it's the same streets in the same
places. And sometimes these areas
haven't changed a great deal that people in the local area
(18:26):
still have the same names. And there definitely is
something about that kind of connection with the past.
I like Avery Gordon's work. She talks about how those
injustices of the past manifest themselves in the present, and
they call for action. And I certainly feel that when
people are gripped in this way, this is what they want.
(18:49):
They want something to be done. And I think it's a really
powerful kind of emotional connection that many people
describe. Are there any particular goals
of the campaigns that really stand out?
Definitely the work on educationas being important and I think
that's ongoing. It's not something that's
included in our school curriculum, but I do know that
(19:11):
there has been a lot of work done about trying to think about
how this might be taken into schools.
And I think that in Scotland in particular, there have been
calls for an apology. So that was definitely something
that was called for and fortunately that was successful.
So in 2022 we had an apology from, at the time, our first
(19:33):
Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who apologised on behalf of the
state, but the wrongs that were done to the accused and those
executed. And we also had an apology from
the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.
She was a really important, I think, acknowledgement of what
happened in the past. There has been quite a lot of
work done around an attempt to get a pardon.
(19:55):
That's not the goal of all the groups and but that's currently,
I think it's stalled at this present point in time.
But there has been a lot of workdone, which in itself has
generated quite a lot of publicity for the campaigns.
And as I say, I think across thecountry where these campaigns
have taken, I think that the ways of remembering are the kind
(20:17):
of sort of fundamental, how do we remember?
How do we find some forum to name those who were accused and
executed and? What would be a fitting way to
remember them? So there has been some successes
in those different directions. As I say, the apology has been
made. So that's something that I think
(20:39):
has been very successful and a very powerful result of the
campaigns in local areas. Quite regularly now we're seeing
new forms of memorialisation being unveiled, so some groups
have been successful in installing, for example,
(20:59):
information boards which either in churchyards or in museums or
inappropriate places that refer to the events of the past.
And I suppose that that in itself would generate further
work. There's been a lot of public
talks that have taken place thatseem to be really well attended.
This is an area that does seem to generate a lot of interest
(21:21):
amongst the general public and Ithink one of the other things
has been the importance of collaboration.
So there have been a lot of different ways of working with
other groups. So for example working with the
church, with artists and local councillors.
There's been films, there's a lot of books that have been
(21:42):
written, fiction and non fictionand work that's going on
collectively to try and raise awareness and highlight this
injustice that's been done. There's a lot of evidence of
acknowledgement rowing and when you mentioned the apologies,
those are so significant becausewhen leadership says this
(22:06):
shouldn't have happened, it's sopowerful.
To have those powerful institutions making that
acknowledgement, it does have a great deal of power behind it.
I don't know what benefit it might have to those who were
executed. And that's one of the questions
that is often raised in conversations and discussions.
(22:29):
But it it is I think it really important.
And I'm aware with the work thatyou've been doing as well
globally and the ongoing contemporary nature of witch
hunts that continue across the world, that having some kind of
formal acknowledgement that we are really sorry that this past
(22:50):
happened here. We don't want to see it
happening again. It's really important.
We have been told by many of themodern advocates against witch
hunting that it is significant when Scotland has an apology,
when Connecticut has an absolution, that those things
(23:11):
resound around the world and andimprove their chances of making
change in their nations. Hopefully we've.
Yeah, yeah, hopefully. How have the people of Scotland
generally reacted to these campaigns?
(23:32):
I think it's definitely generated a lot of interest.
And I suppose that it's difficult to say to what extent
that's gone beyond people who are perhaps already interested
in either injustice or there hasbeen a lot of interest in I
suppose all things which in the last few years as well, some of
(23:53):
that being very kind of commercially orientated.
But it certainly has been notable.
And I think that, as I say, whenthere are talks, public talks,
anything like that seems to be really well attended.
And in many ways, I think that some of the issues that are
(24:13):
raised by discussions, conversations, and this sharing
of information about our historical past, it does
resonate with some contemporary concerns around justice and
injustice. And for me, what's really
important is the way that it highlights the fact that the law
isn't always right or just. And we can see over the last 10
(24:39):
years or so there have been lotsof concerns around justice, some
of that surround gender based violence.
And we've seen the sort of rise of campaigns to try and address
that. In the UK.
There has been quite a lot of concern around the policing of
violence against women and gender in general.
And I suppose that's raised questions for people again,
(25:02):
about the role of the state and the sort of wider political
system. So I think that having
conversations that allow us to explore some of the injustices
of the past resonate with some of the concerns that people have
today. And I suppose what that's one of
the things that really interested me was about the
(25:24):
extent to which when people found out about this historical
past and this historical injustice.
So how did that shape their understanding of what was
happening in in the world today and in in Scotland at the
moment? It's quite evident that there
has been a lot of political protest around different issues,
(25:45):
particularly some of the things that are going on
internationally. And we've seen an increasing
response to police the protest. And I think that that highlights
that there are some questions around what we mean by justice
in a so-called liberal democracy.
(26:06):
When we understand some of the things that went on in the past,
I think it helps us to perhaps put that into some perspective
as well. Are the campaigns revealing
trauma from the witch hunts? I think they are, yes.
I think just in terms of the, asI said before, that emotive
(26:28):
power that people experience when they find out about them
and they consider some of their effects that this might have had
on their own community, I think it's something that's not really
been discussed. There is some work that I am
aware of that's been going on, led by different individuals,
perhaps from a more kind of psychotherapeutic background,
(26:51):
who have attempted to bring particular forms of healing to
those places and that takes different forms.
Sometimes that's done with quitea spiritual approach to try and
kind of heal the traumas of the past.
But I think that there is a recognition that, especially in
(27:13):
Scotland, the fact that this happened across the country to
such an extent and in places it happened several times so that
the witch hunts came and they came back and they affected
large numbers of people in what was a small population.
We killed in Scotland about fivetimes more people than our
(27:34):
neighbors in England, even though we had a smaller
population. So the intensity of the witch
hunts in Scotland couldn't have failed to have an impact on the
people living there at that time.
And I think that there's a recognition that the fact that
that resulted in people being displaced, people living in fear
(27:57):
it it it would undoubtedly have had an effect.
And what I suppose we don't fully understand is the impact
that that's had on successive generations.
And I think that it's interesting that for some of
that work that's come in and being taken place from that more
psychotherapeutic process has been interesting and probably
(28:18):
badly needed. We had a real rupture in
Scotland about the this sort of emphasis on the creation of this
godly society. And so the churches had such a
lot of power in the way that they were able to enforce sort
of moral and social order that, yeah, there's undoubtedly a
legacy from those times. And and sealing the history is
(28:42):
an aspect of the trauma. I would imagine that that was
very much the case. It is interesting how it made.
Recently I've been visiting somesmall areas in the West Coast of
Scotland, small towns which did actually have witch hunts and
had people executed. And I know that because some
people have written books about them and they have gone to the
(29:04):
archives and they're able to tell us about them.
And I've visited the museums andI've been so surprised that
there's no markers in the town or in those areas to denote
this. There's a history that's
depicted in the local museums, which is obviously been really
painstakingly presented and it goes right back to the serf
(29:25):
needless times up until the 1990s.
And this point in history at some of that just seems to be
missing. And I do think that that's
interesting. And as I say, it's only really
put while I've been doing this work and sort of looking at how
we will realize that I would actually have been aware that
(29:46):
this part of history is missing.And it's interesting to to
wonder why that might be the case.
But I agree with you, Sarah. I think it it was concealed.
And I think we also see that in the fact that many of the
records are missing or destroyed, perhaps been
destroyed of this period. We were very fortunate that the
(30:07):
University of Edinburgh has donea lot of work by creating a
survey of Scottish witchcraft. And it's a fantastic resource
that has an interactive map. It can tell you where the trials
took place and where people died.
But there's lots and lots of gaps.
There's nearly 700 people who are unknown.
(30:28):
Their names aren't even known because we don't have the
records. There are some places where
there's just references to a group of witches who were
executed, but we don't know how many.
We don't know who these people were.
And I think that that's also what that's an indication I
think of. Perhaps it wasn't that long
after the event that people realised that what had happened
(30:50):
was an absolute abomination and so they tried to conceal the
evidence. But it's also what motivates the
people that are trying to find out about these lives that have
been eradicated. And that's the thing that seems
to drive so many people to try and find out what happened.
(31:13):
Yeah, it's a lot of your points just really resonate with what
we experience over here in the US There people are searching
for the stories and to try to grasp how did this happen, who
did it happen to? And there's such a lack of
presentation of the history in museums.
(31:36):
It's in a lot of books that are on shelves, but it's not
presented widely. And Austin, I my question it, it
probably needs to change a little bit.
My question has been when are you going to include this
history? But the real question is why
(31:58):
aren't we? Why aren't we?
Yeah, because if you could answer that correctly, then it's
not when, because then you're going to take the steps to get
it included and there is a an excuse for not presenting it
anymore. Yeah, I certainly think that the
(32:20):
there's something that seems to have perhaps there is a momentum
at this point in time. I think it in Scotland anyway to
take that forward. And I think that, yeah, people
are asking those kinds of questions.
And I think also the interest inparallel between the fact that
(32:40):
this printing press was one of the things that helped spread
the witch hunts because people had the information about which
is in the publication of different tracts that they used
at this point is perhaps the fact that we now have access to
more archives, the more digital archives.
And people are sort of trying tolook back into their heritage
(33:05):
and tracing their family trees that there are more resources
available to people. And I think that that in itself
is also along with this momentumabout this great injustice was
done and we don't know about it.So let's you know, why are we
not doing something and what canwe do?
And there are now resources, I think developing all the time to
(33:27):
allow us and enable us to do that.
So hopefully I see some shifts. And I do love the creativity
that is bringing that development.
You've mentioned that a few times.
There's so many different avenues and creative ways for
recognizing and memorializing this history.
(33:48):
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that that speaks to me as well about the emotional
resonance that people have, thatthere has been some amazing work
that's been done in terms of poetry, artwork, plays and
presentations, all sorts of mediums to try and find ways to
express this, what people are feeling as a way of
(34:12):
memorialising and remembering. Yeah, it's very powerful.
And I think that that in itself serves a function for people to
try and generate that energy in a creative direction.
Because I think with all injustice, and I think that
that's the thing with all injustice, you can get stuck at
the point of not knowing how to deal with it and how do we
(34:35):
respond. And it can sometimes feel quite
overwhelming. But I think that the way that
this is sort of generated collective work around trying to
take this forward has been really powerful.
It creates A solidarity with thedead, but also with people now
(34:57):
living. Over here in the states, Salem's
obviously an exception to the rule because everybody knows
about Salem. But the other witch trials in
Massachusetts and the ones in Connecticut like nobody knows
about, and it's only been changing in the last few years.
(35:19):
20 years ago, the movement to exonerate the Connecticut
accused started, but that took 18 years to get past because
nobody knew that Connecticut hadwitch trials.
Even the people of Connecticut, it been suppressed so well,
there were late 19th century writers who were writing that
(35:42):
Connecticut didn't have witch trials at all.
And we now know that at least 11people were executed and dozens
more were accused. So this whole concealing of
memory thing really struck me when you were talking about
that. And we're just now starting to
(36:04):
see people grasp that Connecticut had its own witch
trials and Boston had its own witch trials outside of Salem.
How have these campaigns Have they had an impact on citizen
understanding of witch trial history in Scotland?
Yeah, yes, I definitely think that they are.
(36:25):
And we're also affected by, I think it's also been interesting
in Scotland to see what's happening elsewhere and to find
out the fact that there's something in the fact that this
is a shared experience that's really important, even though we
were at the kind of high end of the hunts over here.
(36:46):
But yes, I think that it does. I think that there are, it's
difficult to get a sense of the extent to which the general
public has kind of engaged with some of this.
There has, as I say, there's been a lot of interest, some of
it maybe is from people who would be interested in these
kinds of issues. Anyway.
(37:06):
It's not been without contentionbecause, and I think that for
instance, one of the campaigns across the UK to try and
petition for a pardon, the issuewas about, I suppose the dissent
was what's the relevance for that today?
But I think when you make the case that there is quite clearly
(37:28):
relevance for today, then peopledo seem to understand that.
I I think that the concealed history, I think it does have an
impact on how people understand who they are and who are we
today. I think that's one of the things
(37:48):
we can say about Scotland. We have very sometimes
stereotyped views about Scottishexceptionalism and the fact that
we think that we have a particular international sort of
outlook and approach. And I think that situations like
the fact that the witch hunts were so high in Scotland, the
numbers executed were so high that we still have an incredibly
(38:11):
punitive criminal legal system. Do you raise questions?
There's so much I'm finding in common that you're mentioning in
Scotland with what we're experiencing in the States.
There's that punitive nature to the States, our incarceration
(38:32):
rate is sky high, and that American exceptionalism still
governs a lot of how our leadersbehave.
And there's of movement under foot here to stop teaching a lot
of the more negative aspects of American history and focus on
(38:57):
the positive aspects and presenting the country in the
best light. I'd be interested in asking you,
Josh. So I'm aware that you're
there'll be some challenges ahead for you in that respect.
And how do you see that you might be able to resist that?
Just the more we can talk, the more we can get these victims
(39:19):
names out there and their stories and help people
understand the injustice of the witch trials and how that
relates to the injustices we're seeing today.
I think it's, it's very important not to be silent right
now about aspects of our historythat might not be the most
positive, but they're the ones that we learn the most from, at
(39:45):
least in my opinion, or negativeHistory has so much to teach us
about human nature, human behavior, how people respond in
times of great fear and uncertainty.
So I think just, you know, podcasting, having live video
(40:06):
events that people can attend and learn about witch trials,
writing about it, blogging aboutit.
Just shouting from the mountaintops.
Hey, this has happened before. What we're seeing now, we can
actually step in and stop some of us.
Yeah. I would add too that your
project name Memorializing Injustice, that says so much
(40:32):
there. And Josh mentioned the injustice
just now, and we've been talkingabout this injustice.
And I think there's still so much stigma around was it in
just what is justice? Who deserves justice?
We have to face that there is injustice in this world that is
(40:52):
still being perpetrated right infront of us.
And we don't want to have to be memorializing that in 100 years,
but we are going to be. So I think the more that we
discuss injustice, and I think cultural criminology is
something that we need to understand more and we need to
(41:12):
look at how do we apply criminology to witch hunts and
to injustices. So your work is really
important. Our podcast exists because of
the multitude of people facing the situation, whether they're
have researched it and are talking about what happened or
(41:33):
they're on the ground now tryingto find justice for modern
survivors and victims. So we just all need to keep
picking up the dirt. Yeah, I certainly think your
podcast does have a big impact. And just to plug it as well, I
was listening to your summary ofyour 100 episodes.
And I thought that that was so powerful in identifying the
(41:55):
themes that you've had been speaking to people about over
your previous episodes and the fact that though they all spoke
about things that we need to think about today.
So yeah, I definitely encourage people to go and listen back to
that as well. Yeah, thank you.
(42:16):
There's a quote that I read in an article about your project.
You said restitution for historical injustice is
essential for an effective justice system.
Can you explain what you meant by that?
I suppose for me that that was one of the sort of reflections
(42:39):
that I had as I began it. And I'm always very dubious and
cynical about the fact that the system can put right the wrongs
of the past. And I think, as you mentioned,
we don't want to be in a situation where that's the case
because the people who they directly affected are gone.
But there's something about being able to acknowledge when
(43:01):
things are are not right and when things are in just.
And I think that there is something about it, the system
claims to be just, it has to be able to accept that if there has
been something that has gone wrong.
And I think that in the UK, we've had a number of large
(43:24):
public scandals around particular things that have gone
very wrong, and it's taken people a long time to get any
recognition that that was the case.
And so I think for me, it's thatacknowledgement and then an
attempt to put right by dealing with the contemporary situation
(43:48):
that's important. And I think that that's where
the idea of some form of restitution is crucial.
We're dealing with systems that make a lot of claims, have a lot
of power. And I think that's the other
issue. It's this of power that is held
by the state in the past has been held by the church.
(44:10):
That's maybe it's slightly different today, but our
enforcement agencies still retain a huge amount of power
and authority. And so they can't assume that
when things go wrong, it's acceptable to cover it up or to
(44:30):
conceal it. Thank you for this wonderful
conversation today. Thank you very much for the
opportunity to speak with you and to be part of this.
And as I said, I think that yourpodcast is a really powerful
resource, and it's been so good to hear about some of the work
that you've done in the States to address some of those issues
(44:53):
that we've been talking about. And I suppose that I try to take
a positive out of this, that while we are dealing with
something that's a really difficult issue, it talks about
a very dark past. But the fact that in some ways
people are coming together in solidarity and trying to take
(45:15):
collective action to to do something good for their
communities is what makes it worthwhile.
And I suppose there's something important to hang on to.
Thank you so very much. It's been a real honor to have
you here, so thank you. So I was sitting at my kitchen
(45:36):
table today drinking coffee justlike this, and the mailman rang
the door. I wasn't the person to jump up
and go to the door, but someone in my household signed for an
international package. International.
And I'm like, well, we know who that's for, but I was so
puzzled. I'm like, what book am I
(45:57):
getting? Because usually it's a book for
a podcast episode of researching.
Yeah. And then I read Claire Campbell
and I knew that was designer of the Witches of Scotland tartan.
So that is what's in. Here.
(46:20):
That is what is in here, our organizations tartan piece, it's
right here. I'm so excited.
I'm so excited to be a part of this memorialization through
tartan and to have it and I haven't looked at it yet.
We're going to look at it here. What do you think?
Are you excited? I'm so excited.
(46:40):
I'm glad that you brought me in on this to watch the unboxing.
Here we go. I have to be careful because I
have to keep this packaging forever.
Oh yeah. It's a memento too.
All right, here we go. Is it?
(47:05):
There. Oh, it's in a special fancy
envelope with their logo on it. Yeah, I'm just going to pick up
this little card that Phil. Yeah, their little card.
That's the logo I saw. I'm so.
Excited W for Witches of Scotland?
Wow, how? Wonderful.
(47:26):
And is that a prickly Thistle? Yes.
Yes. Which is a manufacturer company.
That's the once you make the tartans.
Claire, Claire and Zoe, thank you.
This is so awesome. Oh, I caught a glimpse.
(47:49):
Oh, it's so. Soft actually look like.
It is amazing. It is amazing.
I. Like it a lot.
Once I drop the pen. Oh.
Oh, it's beautiful. It is beautiful.
Yeah, you wear that. I am.
(48:15):
Yes, perfect for your chilly Colorado winters.
Yeah, today's kind of chilly. It is only like 77° today, but.
Yeah. Chilly for the summer?
Yeah. No, I'm actually going to one of
the great things about them getting your piece from them as
(48:35):
you can do what you want with it.
And we're all going to share a little bit of this in our
organization. Our board members are all going
to have a a piece of this to share, so we really love Claire
and Zoe in Witches of Scotland. Their podcast has been a huge
inspiration to our work, especially in 2023 when we were
(48:57):
working on the exoneration of those accused of witchcraft in
Connecticut. Yeah, their whole campaign has
been inspiration. It was one of the drivers in US
starting the podcast was that they were using their podcast to
promote the pardon and apology and memorial for the Scottish
(49:21):
accused of witchcraft. And we're doing the same thing
in Connecticut. So we thought, hey, let's
podcast. Yeah, let's say really
illustrated to us that we can, we could highlight the advocates
around the world who are addressing the modern crisis of
witchcraft accusations. They have featured Leo Egue and
(49:43):
that led us to our work of interviewing advocates around
the world on our podcast, which is right now called The Thing
About Witch Hunts. Previously it was Witch Hunt
Podcast. Listening to Leo on the Witches
of Scotland podcast really got us interested, got him on our
(50:06):
radar and he's such an amazing person.
So very grateful to have that connection because of Witches of
Scotland basically introducing us even though they didn't know
it. Yeah, everyone probably has
listened to him on Witches of Scotland podcast, but check
those episodes out. Also, check out our episodes
(50:28):
interviewing Leo on The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
Yeah, and one of the great thrills we had last year was to
do a cross episode with the witches of Scotland.
So Claire and Zoe joined us and we released the same episode on
(50:49):
our podcast and that they did ontheir podcast and that was
fabulous. Yeah, theirs is titled
Connecticut Witch Trials and ours is titled Witch Hunt X
Witches of Scotland. So the other cool thing that
coming up for the Witches of Scotland is their new book that
is out in the UK and coming out in September, How to Kill a
(51:13):
Witch, A Guide for the Patriarchy.
It's coming out September 30th. I'm excited to read that too.
Me too. I've already pre-ordered my
copy. Yeah.
So you can also pre-order one inour bookshop.
It supports our nonprofit and witch hunts and that link is
(51:34):
bookshop.org/shop slash End Witch Hunts and our nonprofit is
End Witch hunts.org. I'm going to read from the
Scottish Register of Tartans, the Witches of Scotland tartan
description here. It says this design was created
to memorialize those who suffered as a result of the
(51:58):
Witchcraft Act 1563 to 1736 in Scotland.
This tartan will be woven to make products to help create a
living memorial. So this basically is the
realization of getting a memorial to the witches.
It's one that we can all wear and share, and people around the
world can see this memorial without having to travel.
(52:22):
Yeah, memorials are extremely important.
That's the beautiful thing aboutmemorials.
There's lots of ways to memorialize, and this is so
significant. So thank you Zoe and Claire, and
for whoever worked on this and had this phenomenal idea to
remember those victims this way.Want more Scottish witch trial
(52:43):
history and conversation? We have several other lovely
episodes with special experts onthe Scottish witch trials.
Go check them out now. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!