May 14, 2025 • 58 mins
In his return to Witch Hunt Podcast, Antonio Stuckey joins hosts Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack to discuss his research and book "Sober and Civil," chronicling the remarkable life of Salem witch trials survivor Sarah Cloyse. As the younger sister of executed victims Rebecca Nurse and Mary Esty, Sarah Cloyse's nine-month imprisonment represents a powerful chapter in Massachusetts witch trial history—one with personal significance to both hosts, who count her among their ancestors.
Antonio shares how his focused research through court documents and historical records revealed the multidimensional woman behind the accusation—the same figure who inspired the PBS miniseries "Three Sovereigns for Sarah." The conversation explores Sarah's defining act of defiance when she walked out of church slamming the door behind her, her complex first marriage to the dispute-prone Edmund Bridges, and her second husband Peter Cloyse's unwavering loyalty during her imprisonment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The Salem witch trials resulted in witchcraft accusations
against more than 150 people andthe executions of 20.
So what went wrong? We explored this and other
facets of the witch hunt in our new podcast The Thing About
Salem, premiering June 1st. The Thing About Salem offers
bite size episodes in both videoand audio formats that you can
(00:23):
enjoy in 15 minutes or less. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
I'm Sarah Jack. Our ancestors experienced the
Salem witch trials. And here's a little taste of
what you can expect from the thing about Salem.
Possibly Doctor William Griggs decides that the girls, oh,
(00:45):
they're not sick in a natural. Way they're under an evil hand.
Just like that one, Sarah. So what does it mean that
they're under an evil hand? The devil has come to Salem.
The devil's in Salem. Each week, the Thing About Salem
(01:08):
brings you information on a thing from the witch trials.
Episodes will stream on YouTube and all podcast platforms.
To get ready, find usoutaboutsalem.com.
Be sure to join us for Episode 1on June 1st.
Witch Hunt Podcast is raising money for the ultimate
opportunity to expand our globally recognized
(01:31):
documentation of witchcraft accusations, and we need your
help to make it happen. Your gift of any size can be
donated now at www.andwitchhunts.org/donate.
Help us fund our travel expensesto York, England to attend the
Witchcraft and Magic Conference at University of York so we can
learn from and connect with top research experts in this field.
(01:55):
And do you want to learn even more about the Salem Witch
Trials and have fun doing it? Check out our new podcast, The
Thing About Salem, which premieres June 1st.
Our website aboutsalem.com has more information on the show and
on the witch trials One access to exclusive content right now.
Please join our Patreon as we build our community.
(02:18):
Go to patreon.com/about Salem toSign up today.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we have a very special
episode that's particularly meaningful to me.
We're talking with Antonio. Stecchi about his book.
Sober and Civil, which tells thestory of Sarah Kleiss, who
(02:42):
happens to be my great aunt. And my aunt, too.
That's because Sarah Klois was the younger sister of Rebecca
Nurse and Mary Este, who were both executed in 1692.
Unlike her sisters, Sarah survived the trials but spent
nine months in jail. Antonio really shows us not just
(03:03):
the accused witch, but Sarah theperson.
Through court records and careful research, Antonio
reveals the woman who inspired the 1985 PBS miniseries 3
Sovereigns for Sarah. What's fascinating is how
Antonio framed Sarah as an underdog, someone whose story
has been overshadowed by her more famous sisters.
(03:24):
In this conversation, we'll explore Sarah's life before,
during, and after the trials. We'll talk about her first
husband, Edmund Bridges, who seemed to have a talent for
getting into disputes, and her second husband, Peter Kleiss,
who stood by her throughout her imprisonment.
The dramatic moment when she walked out of church, slamming
(03:45):
the door behind her, leading to her accusation, feature
centrally in Sarah's story. Welcome back.
We are so excited. To talk about the Salem witch
trials with you today, can you remind our listeners about
yourself and tell us what we were going to talk about today?
I am Antonio Stuckey, I've been on the podcast before.
I did the episode about being a tour guide in Salem and today
(04:09):
I'm here to talk about my book Sober and Civil, which is about
Sarah Kois. Why did you write sober and
civil? The reason why I wrote Sober and
Civil was because I felt that a poll to Sarah's story.
I started working at the Homestead a few months prior and
(04:30):
I just felt this really weird poll to her.
And I decided, and I purchased acopy of the Day by Day Chronicle
and I was just moseying through and I realized I'm like, oh,
everyone kind of talks about Rebecca or Mary.
I'm like, there was a third sister.
And I like writing about underdogs, like research,
looking into them. And I just fell down the rabbit
(04:51):
hole and I was like, and she's the one, I hate to say it like
this, but it's like she's the one that survived, you know what
I mean? And it's always those ones that
we don't know a lot about because their stories didn't
have that dramatic ending. I hate to say it like that.
It's like Catherine Parr with Henry the Eighth, you all know
(05:13):
about, like Anne Boleyn or 'cause I mean graphic, but her
head was cut off. You know what I mean?
We know about Rebecca and Mary because they were unfairly
executed. No one really knows about Sarah
because they're like, oh, she survived.
It doesn't matter. But it does matter because she
was in jail from the beginning of the trials to the end of the
trial. So she was there.
(05:34):
She saw every, well, almost everything.
Yeah. And I want to remind our
listeners that my ancestors are the town family and that Rebecca
Nurse was my ninth great grandmother and Mary Estee was
my ninth great grandmother. And so Sarah was my aunt.
And getting a look at your book told me more about that third
(05:58):
sister like you're talking about.
There is one part of hers. And then see that I've been
fascinated with and it'll probably come out in our talk
today, so I won't spoil that. But learning more about her and
thinking about, as you said, shewas there that whole time, that
her view of what was happening so awesome.
(06:18):
What did you want to say throughyour book?
Something about Sarah and telling it through her
perspective was what I felt needed to be told because I feel
like there's a lot of misconceptions out there about
the witch trials. And as I mentioned earlier,
Sarah was there for the whole thing.
(06:39):
So it kind of so it's like it makes sense.
Like, oh, well, if I'm going to be talking about the whole scope
of the witch trials, might as well be someone who's there for
the whole thing. That way I can show what's going
on and how this affected her. With the first accusations was
Tajiba and Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne, and then Rebecca's
accusation and the first execution with Bridget Bishop
(07:02):
and then the final executions and then the Court of Judicature
and eventually her being broughtto a grand jury and then being
released. And then there from the very
quick, like after that point, there were trials, but no one
else was being convicted or executed because the governor, I
don't want to say begrudgingly stepped in, but people were
(07:25):
noticing like, hey, man, like these people that are being
released are being released on the same base of evidence that
we are convicting people. And so he's like, it's not
making sense. And the governor's like, oh,
yeah, that's right. Like, I maybe I should say
something. Maybe I should do something.
Then he did. And Chief Justice William
Stoughton was not happy about that.
But yeah. Can you tell us a little bit
(07:50):
about Sarah's family for the towns?
I just picture them to be a verydelightful family and that was a
vibe, something I hope shown through.
Something I found really fascinating was that the mother
and all of her daughters were church members.
I don't remember if I was able to find out about her sons, but
(08:12):
I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
But from the shows, the character of the family, very
respectful, very kind. They were not the wealthiest
family, but they definitely werecared about one another.
There was a point in my research, though, where I was
like, oh, how were they? Because it brought up a lot of
questions. Because jumping ahead in the
(08:34):
time like a little bit, when Sarah's first husband passed
away and she went back home, there was kind of like a nobody
took her in because she had nowhere to go.
And then within a few weeks or about a month, she was asked to
leave Toxfield because they couldn't support her.
And I'm like, and it kind of made me go, I'm like, well,
maybe they weren't as much caring as they much as I thought
(08:56):
they were. But then I'm like, well, also,
this is back when you had eight children.
Most families had 6 to 8 children and having another six
mouths to feed, it's not something you're able to do.
So I'm like, OK, they definitelycared about each other.
You know what I mean? Because I think there's a very
unfair misconception that Puritans didn't love their
children, didn't love their wives or husbands or relatives.
(09:19):
But I think the towns were very a very close family and it shows
later on in when people are petitioning for people to be
exonerated. So I'm not going to jump ahead
because I wasn't spoiling anything, but.
So they were a really large family.
The towns, yes, on I think I didthe math on average each of the
six, I think it was 6 town children, but Mary, Sarah,
(09:43):
Rebecca, Joseph, John, Edmond, Ithink each of them had between
6:00 to 8:00 children. I think Edmund though had the
most out of nine or more, at least nine that survived.
Wow. Yeah, very.
I can imagine having to do Christmas gifts, no Christmas
bands, so I guess. But nowadays I can imagine
(10:04):
having to do Christmas for that.Yeah, but you make some good
points there. Your nine children, you had to
have a lot of children because alot of them unfortunately didn't
survive. But then the Puritan families
did grieve their children. Obviously, you see some of that
(10:25):
in the Salem witch trials testimony where they're having
dreams or visions of, you know, murdered children coming to
visit and that kind of thing. Yes, exactly.
Especially from Anne Putnam's senior with I think it was her,
I think her daughter's, the daughter that passed away.
Her name was Sarah also, and it is interesting.
(10:48):
I something I still think about,though.
I'm like, had this happened 40 years prior and Putnam senior
would have been accused of witchcraft because that's
exactly what happened to Alice League.
And so I, that's something I like off topic, but it's
something that even if you look further and further back, you
still see that that grieving andeverything.
And Sarah even lost two children, I think.
(11:10):
Granted, the one that she lost was about 22 years old, but then
very quickly after she lost another child not long after
birth. Yeah, and we can see in colonial
Diaries as well, such Puritans as Cotton Mather and Samuel
Sewell grieved. Every child that became I'll,
(11:31):
every child that passed, they mourn.
What should we know about Sarah's life prior to marriage?
She was the youngest, she was the baby of a family.
And something that is really people like to theorize on is
her relationship with her older siblings, specifically her
(11:52):
sisters, obviously, because that's always kind of like what
we focus on and what I focus on,obviously.
But she was, there was a 20 yearage gap between her and Rebecca.
There's a lot of debate as to when Sarah was born, but through
some sleuthing and through a little bit of math, I was able
to conclude that Sarah was born around 16411642, give or take.
(12:17):
And so she was about 21 years younger than Rebecca.
And so I feel that while later in life they were close, I feel
like the sister that she looked up to more it was Mary, because
Mary was only 7 years older thanher.
And so I think Mary played that role of like the older sister
who's like, hey, this is what life is like.
Like I'm going to help you. I'm going to teach you maybe.
(12:39):
I'm sure they picked on each other a little bit.
They got into their spats and their arguments.
But obviously back then things were different.
And so she grew up with all of her older siblings.
She was one of the last ones to be married.
She stayed with them. And then it's kind of just
interesting just to kind of lookat it and wonder about who her
(13:01):
maybe her favorite sibling was. You know what I mean?
Unfortunately, we'll never get that answer unless somehow Sarah
Cloyce appeared right next to me.
Answer that question, but it's just something that's nice to
think about. Thank you for that information
about her early life. What should we know about
Sarah's first husband? Wow, he was a character.
I'm not saying he was a troublemaker, but I reading a
(13:28):
lot of the stuff about him wherehe was kind of getting into
disputes with the golds or he was getting disputes with the
wealthy merchants in Salem Town,being brought in and out of
court for her wearing a back then they call her a Perry wig,
but we would know it now as a wig.
I feel like he was trying to make his life better, if that's
(13:52):
the word. I want to, if that's how I want
to describe it. He was trying to like be like,
oh, like I'm just as like worthyas everyone else.
I can do this. Unfortunately, they didn't think
that, so he was always getting in trouble.
And so I couldn't really imaginehow Sarah felt about this.
For instance, like the first major issue was with John Gould,
(14:14):
and they had to leave Topsfield because of it.
If I was Sarah, I would have been so angry at my husband, but
he's making me pick up and leavemy family and have to go to
Salem Town where I totally have to reorient my life, figure out
a new way to make money because now I'm not growing crops.
(14:36):
Now I'm living in town where I live on an acre instead of eight
1020 acres of land and a new wayof surviving.
Even he was her first husband. We don't have any letters or
journal entry showing like what the relationship was like, but
I'm sure it was one of the leastmutual respect.
And they had five or six children together.
(14:58):
But he was a Jack of all trades.Obviously.
He was a farmer. He did work as an attorney, for
Pete's sakes. He worked with Philip English.
When as soon as like, Philip English arrived to town, he
started working with him. And other people were like, oh,
you're working with him now. And then they sued him over it.
Then they also said that he was saying, like, these slanderous
things. And he's like, no, I'm not.
It's just interesting. Though.
(15:18):
Sarah really kept in the background for a lot of it.
She didn't get involved, which really makes me wonder, had
Edmund not died and they were still married by the time Sarah
was accused, what he would have done for her.
He definitely was not Peter Kois.
(15:38):
But it just, that's another question.
I'm like, I wonder what he wouldhave done for Sarah and her
moment of need because granted, she wasn't it.
So that was her place. She was to keep quiet, you know
what I mean? But still.
But would have he been in jail with her?
Exactly too I given that who he was and they were, I think he
(16:00):
very easily would have found himself accused.
He was not very well liked. He had a lot of issues, I
shouldn't say. Yeah, I know he was not well
liked. He had issues with a lot of
people who play very important roles in the witch trials.
The minister, John Higginson, did not like him.
And so it's a very interesting hypothesis or something,
(16:22):
something I would love to see inlike an alternate timeline.
Not obviously. Visually I like to see like
written down. Oh, this is what could happen.
Sounds like it's time for you toput a fiction book together.
Oh well. Hi.
Sarah. I am working on one, just not
about it's, it's takes place during the witch trials, just
not, yeah, not focusing on the Salem witch trials.
(16:46):
Yeah, The core transcripts that you shared, it really painted
this evident conflict that was happening between the community
members. And it's hard to see those
earlier decades knowing what's coming up in 1692.
Like you feel the dread, but it also really, it kind of reminded
(17:07):
me of Hugh Parsons over in Springfield who was convicted in
Boston. He wasn't liked.
I think we have probably more ofhis comments and more records of
the way that he was offending people, Less hearsay even maybe.
But it just really showed that there were these individuals in
(17:31):
the communities that weren't just getting in line and being
quiet. They were trained to be humans
with personalities and desires and wanted to establish
themselves the way they wanted to.
And Edmund wanted to wear a wig.Yeah, heaven forbid he wants to
wear a wig. And then even clearly people
(17:52):
were so ruffled by it. I mean, Nicholas Noise wrote an
essay about it. Not admin specifically, but just
the whole idea of it. I think he just wanted to do
whatever. But I always very much imagined
like, Sarah being a no nonsense person.
So I can only imagine the conversations they had home.
Yeah. So what was going on with the
(18:14):
Taverns? I saw a transcript or a letter
or a report. What was it?
A letter plate scripts in the future, so I don't want to say
everyone had a Tavern back then,but you definitely knew there
was Edward and Sarah Bishop. There was not Bridget Bishop for
anyone who still believes that. But loud and clear, Bridget
(18:36):
never owned one. There was John Proctor who owned
one. It's just the the usage of a
Tavern was a little bit different depending on where you
were. So if you were like John Proctor
or Edward Bishop out in the village or Salem Farms, you you
really relied heavily on traffic.
Whereas if you lived in the townlike Admin and Sarah, you
(18:57):
didn't. You relied on it.
Yeah, but you were always going to get someone who was
travelling through or wanted to stop by for a pint.
But even though if you had a Tavern, you had to follow so
such strict guidelines, like youcan't serve alcohol past this
time. You can only serve this much
alcohol throughout the whole day.
And then if you get caught selling it, not only will your
(19:19):
patron be fine, but you yourselfwill be fine as well.
You can't sell. I mean, obviously back then
there was a 17th century. So you're going to see very
racist kind of segregation. You can't sell cider or ale to
indigenous people. And Sarah and Edmund got in
trouble for that because they did.
And even a few men who really were drinking a little too much
(19:41):
at the Bridges Tavern because they were fined for being drunk
publicly. And they're like, I just got it
over at Edmund's Tavern. Luckily, Sarah was not the one
who got in trouble for it. Edmund took the fall for it.
But even their children were asked to testify in some of
these cases, being like, oh, yeah, I served.
I served this and this for him or no, I didn't.
(20:01):
But it's just if I lived back then.
I would want to be a Tavern keeper because that is where you
get to see the most stuff. Because even you see with
Nathaniel Ingersoll, you get like a front row seat to all of
this. Like Drum.
Your life's never dull if you'rea Tavern keeper.
That's the conclusion I've come to.
And that's not because there wasa bunch of fun happening in
(20:22):
there, because that wasn't allowed.
Exactly like you, you could. I wouldn't be surprised if I
read in those rules that's like you cannot breathe.
Like you have to hold your breath and have to do this and
this. I would not be surprised, but it
was still a very like rambunctious place.
Yeah, I know people got in trouble for having shuffleboard
(20:47):
and games going on. Apparently wasn't cool to play
games in a bar. Yeah, clearly you just.
You can't drink one thing. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, but I thought one that wasfunny in in your book, somebody
was reported to have drank or they consumed 3 quarts of cider
(21:10):
in one sitting. And I'm like, that's 6 pints of
cider. That's a pretty healthy amount
of it's more than a six pack of beer.
Yeah, like I would love to know what they put in it.
Yeah, yeah. How strong was it?
Yeah, I I know they didn't really drink water as much as
(21:30):
people think they did. There were different strengths
of ales and ciders and stuff back then, but still like to
have at least three or four people get in trouble for over
drinking. I'm like, Sarah, what were you
putting in this You. Walking out all wobbly.
Yeah. It makes me think of the is it
(21:51):
the was it Now I'm not with the waslers that were demanding the
apples and cider. Yeah.
Yeah, in Salem Village, the guysdemanding the cider that one
year. Yeah, pretty.
And then they like stole a bunchof apples or threw them or it
was like a whole. Thing with they.
(22:11):
Tore down fences. They did everything to that poor
guy. Who was the one guy in town that
had apple cider at that moment, apparently.
Listen, people think these Puritans were just this uptight
bunch when they really were not like religiously yes, but that
was for one day a week. The rest of the week they
(22:33):
clearly weren't these like up type people.
They were they had fun back then.
Secretly, they definitely had fun.
They were just like us. I mean, I think that's so
important and I think that's part of what you're doing in
your book is showing Sarah Town Bridges close is a person.
(22:58):
We are people. You were able to touch on a lot
of the accused and when you're looking at the accusations and
just what's being said it I'm it's not making me think, oh,
they're practicing witchcraft. It's just, oh, why are they
choosing this person to attack in such a, to say that they are
(23:20):
being attacked with the chains and stuff.
So yeah, it really portrays her as a human.
Yeah, exactly. And I think this whole time when
writing it, I almost felt like she was like looking over my
shoulder the whole time. Granted, because at least three
or four of the chapters I was watching 3 Sovereigns for Sarah.
So I had a very distinct image of Vanessa Redgrave in my mind.
(23:43):
And I still fully picture Vanessa Redgrave as Sarah
Cloyce. That's who she is, is Vanessa,
Right. And she's I, she just is this.
She's so fascinating. I just wish there was there was
more out there about her just toshow who she was because she had
such an interesting life. But again, but had the witch
(24:08):
trials never happened, we would never have known anything about
her there. The record would be there, but
we wouldn't know a lot about her.
Very. True.
Yeah, There's very few records for the women.
And you don't, you don't have letters, Diaries from a lot of
the people, but especially from the women.
(24:28):
We don't have their written words or even what other people.
We just have what other people wrote about them.
Yep. And that was not very much.
Exactly, and it's something I always remember is that history
is written by the victors and luckily Sarah will have been
(24:49):
pretty deep, not to say decent. She had a good reputation prior
to the trials, so she's written very favorably and also helps
that Rebecca and Mary are written about very, I shouldn't
say very. They are always written very
well about by people. But I like to classify my book
(25:10):
about Sarah as her story. It's women's history, not about
the men. Obviously the men in her life
played a very important role, but this is about her.
This is about her sisters and how the situations that the men
around her, they got her into. And I again, people are going to
(25:30):
be like, wow, he's so much hating on men.
I'm like, I'm not. I'm being very upfront.
This it was a man's world back then and she and her story is
written by men. I need repeat takes.
I'm a man and I wrote her story,but I tried to go about it in a
very unbiased way. And if there's like questions
(25:52):
about being a woman, I always I would ask my mom or my
grandmother because I don't wantto say like this and this and
this. I want to be correct.
It's so important to tell the women's stories because the men
were in all the positions of power and authority and they're
(26:12):
the ones who made the history. At least like you said, the
victor gets to write the historyand they were the powerful ones.
So that's the history that we got was the men.
So I really love any opportunityto get to see inside a woman's
(26:33):
mind and in in her life at that time.
Yes, it's it. I just think reading
historically about women is so much more fascinating because
you they're either one of two things.
They're either the demure woman who is very complicit, or
(26:55):
they're, as some people like to say, like a she wolf, like the
complete opposite. They speak their mind very loud
and opinionated. Sarah Chloeus was very much in
between. She's very much an in between
person and I think, I hope I conveyed that.
Sarah Good literally turned herself into a she wolf.
(27:15):
Yeah, according Elizabeth. I was going to bring up Sarah
Good because talking about SarahBridges when she became a widow
and she was warned out of town. She.
Went and did something, she wentand got married.
But then there were some women, Sarah good.
I don't know what the status of her having been warned out.
(27:38):
I know she wasn't a widow, but nobody wanted her coming.
And when they said Dorothy, theybegrudged her.
They begrudged Sarah good. But clearly Sarah Bridges stayed
on the good side of people, eventhough she found herself in a
quite helpless situation momentarily.
(27:59):
Yes. I think what also helped is
there's no record of when Sarah married Peter Kloice.
However, there, if you do the math, with the birth of their
son Ben, who was stillborn in September 1683, if you count
back, it's at least January by the time of January when they
(28:20):
were married. And by early January, she's
still known as Sarah Bridges because she signed her mother's
will as Sarah. Well, this name, Sarah Bridges,
was written and she marked it with an X 'cause she might have
not known how to write her name.And so at least by January 1683,
she met Peter. She married him.
(28:41):
It's just during those three months between September of 1682
and January 1683, what did she do?
Where did she go? We don't really know.
Maybe had Sarah Koist gone to trial and there are depositions
being people coming testify, we might have known.
There might have been something that happened.
But I think Peter knew of her situation and married her very
(29:05):
quickly. They knew each other before they
were married. And that's something I never
knew, and it's something found out after I had written the book
and I had already uploaded it toIngram Spark and I had about a
month before it was going to be published.
And so I found one little mention of Edmund Bridges and
Peter Klohce working together inSalem Town.
(29:26):
And so I put that in just to clarify that they knew each
other. He very much, he saved her.
Peter saved her. He made very much her knight in
shining armor. Had he not married her, God
knows what would have happened. Maybe she would have married
somebody else. But she got very lucky to marry
in that amount of time and also helped that Peter was decently
(29:49):
wealthy. He was comfortable.
And if you reflect on to Sarah Goode, I don't know the amount
of time between her first husband's death and marrying
William Goode, but it didn't help that William Goode was not
wealthy. And that's what I just kind of
kept her in the same class whereSarah was able to go up a little
bit and be comfortable and be able to be taken care of and
(30:10):
have her other kids be taken care of.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Yeah, and it it seems like Peter, he was really there for
her during the witch trials and also after as well.
Yes, Samuel Parris. He was there so much that even
Samuel Parris wrote it down in the journal in August of 1692.
(30:33):
It said, oh, Peter, Brother Cloyce has not been here for
quite some time. And so he was there.
He visited her. He made sure he was taken care
of. Luckily, back then visiting
relatives in jail was a lot easier than it is now, but he
was always there. He made sure she was taken care
of. And the town women were very
lucky that they had husbands that took care of them.
(30:55):
Isaac also made sure Mary was taken care of.
Francis, I don't even need to say anything more.
They love their wives. And again, had Edmund Bridges
been alive, I don't know. He.
I really don't know. Yeah.
Not to slander him because I don't want any descendants to be
mad at me, but it's just based off the records.
(31:17):
What we have is I have to be honest.
Yeah. And if he was trying to defend
her in court, would that have carried as much weight as
somebody like a Peter Kloice, who has a clean reputation and
is involved in the community in positive ways, interacting with
other people at least? Exactly, Yeah.
(31:41):
So what should we know about theSalem Witch trials to understand
Sarah Kloice experience as an accused?
When people ask why someone's accused, it's usually a few
different things. Oh their reputation association?
They were just named by a confessor or someone who was
accused for no for. They were just named Sarah
(32:03):
Kloice. I firmly think that she was
accused because of her association to Rebecca.
We don't know why Rebecca was accused in the 1st place.
There's a lot of different theories.
And it had nothing to do with their mother being accused of
witchcraft. I'm silencing that right now.
There's only one mention of it, and even then I don't even think
that's the reason why. I think it's purely because
(32:25):
Rebecca was accused. And also didn't help that on
March 28th, 1692, when they're all sitting there for the Sunday
services, Samuel Paris starts doing the sermon about Judas
betraying Jesus and stuff like that.
And everyone knows that Samuel Paris is talking about Rebecca
and probably Martha Corey because Martha Corey was also a
(32:46):
church member. But Sarah took that personally
and she walked out and she slammed the door behind her
allegedly. And then, according to Abigail
Williams, knelt before Man in Black and placed her hand on a
book, according to Abigail Williams.
And then apparently three days later, Abigail Williams said
that Sarah was a Deacon in a great witch's meeting and she
was serving blood and flesh to all these other witches, 40
(33:09):
witches total from March 31st toApril 4th.
So about 5 days, Sarah finds herself accused of witchcraft on
April 4th, 1692. However, there is a delay
between that complaint and the warrant being filed because
Hawthorne and Corbin, oh, this is getting anticipated.
And some things that people might not know is that Sarah
(33:31):
Kloice and Elizabeth Proctor were accused together.
Their names are on the same arrest warrant.
And after they go to the governor and they get they're
like, hey, can you guys like sitin on this examination?
Because we think this is going to be huge.
And they do when they agree. And so they signed the warrant
and then another within another three days.
By April 11th, 1692, Sarah is arrested and then she's brought
(33:57):
to the Salem Town meetinghouse with Elizabeth during they're
arrested and apparent, accordingto Samuel's school.
It was so packed in there, like it must have been absolutely
stunk with heat. So many people crammed into that
space. There is not much we know.
Sarah was questioned first. However, there is not a lot that
(34:18):
she said. There's only two lines that were
hers. This whole examination and
mostly the information about herspecter is coming from John
Indian Tituba's husband. I use the term husband loosely.
I think more so of a common law husband.
They were as in they're like, oh, they're both indigenous, so
therefore they're husband and wife.
(34:39):
But anyways, and so he's saying,oh, she bit me, she choked me,
she pinched me, she bit me till the blood came.
And Sarah's like, when did I do this?
When did I do this? And he's like, oh, just this
time, blah, blah, blah. And then she called him a liar
right in front of everyone. And according to Upham, no
(35:01):
matter how reliable or unreliable he may be, according
to Upham, there's the QS were saying, oh, there's a yellow
bird flying around her. The man in black is whispering
things in her ear. However, that's not in the
primary sources. So I don't know how true that
is. Then according to some sources,
most of the afflicted were very calm during her examination,
(35:24):
like they weren't like falling the floor thrashing around like
Rebecca's. And according and some sources,
Mary Wolcott was knitting the whole time.
But at some point, though Sarah,I it was unclear, but I
interpreted it as and Marilyn also interpreted it as Sarah
Koist passed out. She asked for some water and
then she slumped in her seat andthat was the end of her
(35:46):
examination. I think it was Abigail said that
her spirit has gone to her sister nurse.
And then Elizabeth, there's a cute question.
And then John Proctor's arrested.
And I never knew that. I thought John went home and he
was arrested from his home. I didn't know that John was
arrested from his wife's examination.
I guess you could say that's onething the Crucible kind of got
(36:06):
right. Because if you're watching the
Crucible, he is arrested during a hearing.
But again, I'm not saying that Crucible's entirely accurate.
And then there she's thrown in jail.
And I couldn't imagine, like, Rebecca's reaction, like, why
are you here? And I can only imagine like
that, like them seeing each other for the first time in
weeks and then they get shipped off to the Boston jail and they
(36:31):
stay there for at least three more months, four more months, I
think. I was just gonna say, can you
tell us with a little bit? There were multiple jails
holding the accused. Really it depended on where you
lived and when you were at leastlooking at 1692 trials as a
(36:54):
whole and when you were arrestedbefore the court of what you can
terminate was set up. They expected the trials to be
held in Boston. So those who were accused and
expected to go to trial were sent to the Boston jail.
So on April 12th, 1692, John Proctor, Elizabeth Proctor,
Sarah Klois, Rebecca, Martha Corey and Dorothy Good are
(37:17):
shipped off to the Boston jail because they were expected to go
to trial. However, interestingly, Mary SD,
when she's arrested, she is not shipped off to the Boston jail
right away. I'll get into that a little bit
later. But if later on though, you were
more than likely going to be held in either Ipswich or the
Salem jail, the Boston jail, once the trials got started and
(37:39):
by a certain point, those are the people who at least I
interpret it as you're not goingto be brought to trial anytime
soon. I don't even think a lot of, I
think only really Dorothy Good remained in the Boston jail and
maybe a few others. And again, it really depended on
where you were from. If you were closer to Ipswich,
you were in Ipswich. Closer to Salem, you were in
Salem. If you were from the Boston
(38:00):
area, you went to Boston for Cambridge.
There's also the Cambridge jail.I forget about that jail, but
the Cambridge jail too. And you had an ancestor that was
in one of these jails during thewitch trials?
This is actually perfect segue into Mary Estie.
As I said, Mary Estie was arrested on April, She was
arrested on April 21st and she stayed in the Salem jail for
(38:22):
that month on May 12th. Giles Quarry, Bridget Bishop and
a few others were ordered to go to the Boston jail, obviously
pending their trial. However, Mary stayed behind.
So it's very clear from the get go.
I think early on people were like, oh, Mary Estie, like no,
no, like it can't be. Which you would think also that
would be the case for Rebecca orSarah, but no.
(38:44):
But because on May 18th, I don'tknow where, they never specify
where, but Mary Estie is broughtto the court.
I don't know if it was at Salem Village or Salem Town, but they
basically dismiss her. They're like because the
accusers were chanting their statements against her except
for Mercy Lewis. Mercy Lewis then that I think
(39:07):
you're that night where the following day she basically is
on the brink of death. She's claiming to be attacked by
all these different specters ledby Mary Estee.
They also named John Willard anda few other people.
However, though there's and thenJohn, I think it was John Putnam
goes to around basically to try to get Mary arrested and then
(39:28):
also more of the afflicted or coming to John Putnam's house
where Mercy Lewis now was basically on her deathbed.
When this huge like scene kind of happens.
And it was like if you've ever been for those of you who are
listening, if you've ever been to the Rebecca Nurse homestead
or a 17th century house at all, they're very small.
So I how I would picture is Mercy is being kept on the first
(39:52):
floor in the bed, obviously, as I keep saying, on the brink of
death. Air quotes around that.
And you have Elizabeth Hubbard show up, Mary Walcott and Putnam
junior Abigail Williams. They all show up.
And then they all also start to fall into afflictions.
They're like, yes, Mary SD is there and she's attacking her.
She's strangling her with chainsor whatever.
(40:14):
And they name three more women. Alongside Mary Este, John
Willard, and I just remembered Mary D Rich, who was Elizabeth
Proctor's sister. They name Sarah Bassett, who is
the sister-in-law of Elizabeth Proctor, Sarah Proctor who is
the daughter of Elizabeth and John Proctor and Susanna Roots
who is my ancestor. Within a few hours, Mary Este is
(40:36):
arrested again from her son's home.
I couldn't like somehow they knew they were coming.
I'm sure they probably expected them to come and arrest her
again, but because she was so week from the last from being in
jail and she was still at her son's house recuperating.
And thank you, by the way, to Mary, who gave me most of this
information. But they according to his I,
(41:00):
according to the sources in historical legend, they put Mary
in the root cellar in the house and that's where she head.
And then they basically dragged her out of it and they arrested
her Josh and said, I know you'veboth been there.
You visited, it's common search,but I don't want people going up
to the property because it is technically private.
But you've been there. And so I couldn't imagine,
(41:23):
though, like hearing that, like they're coming closer and then
pulling you out and then you're off in jail.
And Mary Estie was questioned again.
And we don't have surviving records of that.
But on May 23rd, Mary Estie, Susanna Roots and at least six
or seven other people there at the Salem Village meetinghouse.
And they're made to perform a touch test and basically where
(41:45):
they're afflicted are being brought to them.
And if the accused are blind, they're blindfolded and their
hands put on the afflicted and their affliction stop is
basically a sign that they are the witch tormenting them.
And so Mary and my Aunt Susanna and all those other people,
they're like, Yep, there's enough evidence for a formal
trial. And they're all shipped off to
Boston. And that's where Mary finally
(42:07):
meets up with her sisters. And I'm sure maybe by that point
Sarah and Rebecca might have known that Mary was released,
but we're not sure. Or as Mary told them and she's
like, I was released, but clearly like I'm back here.
But now obviously with the wholething with Marcy Lewis and
almost killing Marcy Lewis, air quotes are on that again.
(42:28):
They found there's enough evidence to hold Mary for trial.
And for about a month, the sisters are together till June
to the June 1st, I think. When Rebecca's shipped to Salem
for her trial, her case was selected to be heard first.
However, according to Thomas Newton, once they saw all the
people whose cases they wanted to try, it was ticket bus, Sarah
(42:51):
Goode, Bridget, Rebecca, John Willard, Alice Parker and a few
others. They're like, this is too many
cases. And so they ended up selecting
Bridget's case to be held first,but Rebecca's was the next case
a few weeks later. And obviously, as we all know,
she was tried, found not guilty,and then they brought her back,
changed the verdict, convicted, sentenced to hang.
(43:14):
Meanwhile, Mary and Sarah were sent back to Salem on June 18th
and they were there. I'm sure they got that second,
that account though, from Rebecca when they got back.
And they're just like, what the heck, Like first Mary's released
and then rearrested, Rebecca's found but not guilty, then
convicted. Her verdicts change.
I'm sure Sarah's like, well, great.
(43:36):
It's nothing that can be done for me.
And then obviously they're therewhen Rebecca's executed.
That was the hardest part to write in my book, actually.
Those twist like that where Mary's arrested, released,
arrested again, Rebecca's not guilty, then she's guilty, and
Rebecca also gets reprieved and then the reprieve gets revoked.
(44:01):
So it must have been such a tumultuous roller coaster for
the town family and the sisters,especially in jail, watching
each other go through these things and not knowing what's
going to happen to me now. Yeah.
It's just like and then but thenthough after Rebecca's trial,
(44:25):
like I'm sure they fully expected to be up next, like up
in the for the next cases. Mary was brought to her grand
jury in August alongside Martha Corey, but nothing is done.
They're shipped off to Ipswich jail where they wait until
September. And by that .5 more people had
already been hanging, including George Burroughs, Martha Carrier
(44:48):
and John Willard and John Proctor and George Jacobs.
And finally they're brought. They're like, OK, like this is
it like they're going to be put on trial?
And then this is like the real like meat and potatoes of Sarah
Close's story because, and I'm sure like 'cause this is like
the big question as to why Sarahwas never brought to trial.
(45:10):
On September 9th, 1692, Mary Estes brought to her grand jury
and her trial and she's tried and convicted and sentenced to
hang, obviously. And then at the same time,
apparently Sarah's also brought to her grand jury and they send
out the witnesses. And by that point, they sent,
(45:30):
the witnesses had already been summoned.
And meanwhile, Sarah Klois and Mary S, you're being physically
examined and all that stuff. The witnesses are coming.
However, some witnesses don't show up.
The witnesses that don't show upare Mary Town, Sarah's
sister-in-law, and Rebecca Town,her niece.
Mary Town says that her family'snot well and Rebecca's falling
(45:53):
into some sort of afflictions. And then the court is like, no,
you have to come. Like, no ifs, ands or buts, Like
you have to come. And according to Marilyn Roach
and a few other sources, they doshow up.
And in the records of the Salem witch hunt, it's right there as
(46:13):
clear as day, indictment of Sarah Kloice for afflicting
Rebecca Town. And most people go, wow.
So her own niece accused her. My take on it is, no, I think
when she was there, she very clearly was not.
Well, the afflicted would have been there most definitely.
(46:34):
And I think they would have probably said something along
the lines of, oh, goody koi suspect here is attacking her
niece. Look at all this stuff.
He's tormenting her, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
And so they indict her for it. She's not only indicted for
that, she's indicted for tormenting Mary Walcott and
Abigail Williams. So she's charged on three
counts. However, because of that delay
(46:58):
of Mary and Rebecca Cumming, they have to postpone her trial.
And so she's made to wait. And a few, at least six or seven
more other people are tried and they're all convicted.
And by the end of this setting of the court in on September
17th, 15 people were trying, convicted.
(47:19):
Giles Quarry was already pressedto death.
And had Sarah been tried, she would probably wouldn't have
been the 16th. However, the court realized
there was no room for 15 people to be hanged at once.
And so they choose eight people.And out of those eight people
included Mary Estee. And Mary was one of the last
people hanged on September 22nd,1692.
(47:41):
And then Sarah is made to wait. It's after that the court is
like, oh, we're going to wait until November, which is
completely different from they've already done, they've
done monthly court settings and now they're like, oh, we're
going to wait till November. And so I'm sure Sarah's like,
OK, November is when done, but nothing happens.
And she's been in prison this whole time.
(48:02):
He's been in prison this whole time.
November 1st comes and goes and she's still there.
She's in the Ipswich jail because the Court of Wayan
Terminate was disbanded, not because the governor's wife was
accused, but because the governor was like, we need to go
back and we need to look at thisagain.
And so the court was disbanded and they set up the new Court of
Judicature, and that's when they're finally able to bring
(48:26):
Sarah to her grand jury. Actually, they redid her grand
jury and they never found enoughevidence from the indictments.
They were all returned ignoramusand I'm very sure that her jail
fees were up to date and she wasreleased.
After all those months and months, from April 11th until
(48:50):
the following year, through all the seasons and everything.
Nine months. Nine months in jail, yeah,
that's awful. So her jail fees must have been
paid because she was released. What was it like for her around
her community after? I couldn't imagine that.
(49:11):
I'm sure farms were left in disarray because everyone's
going to court to watch these show trials, which is basically
what they were. However, Peter Kloice is like,
we're not staying here very long.
He does play a very early role in getting Samuel Parris kicked
out of Sam Village. However, by, I think April 1693,
(49:32):
which is a few months after Sarah was released, they are
living in Boston. And then very quickly they move
to Sudbury, which is out near Marlboro, which is about an hour
away nowadays, by car. And back then it was like day's
journey or whatever. And they live there.
We know this at least by 1695 because Peter requested their
(49:54):
church membership be transferredto the church in Marlboro and
that's where they stay. Peter does become one of the
founding members of Framingham. It is, I think, known as
Danforth Farms. There is legend that Thomas
Danforth gave them land because he felt so bad.
However, Thomas Danforth did notreally play a role with the
(50:17):
trials until the very end. I think by that point Sarah was
already released. He was there during her
examination, so he would have recognized her.
However, I don't think he gave them this land.
I'm fully, if I'm being fully transparent, people can debate
me as much as they wish, but I don't think that's true.
But they were in Sudbury, and then eventually where they lived
(50:39):
in Sudbury became Framingham in 1700.
Peter was one of the town leaders basically.
So Sarah spent the last few years of her life very
comfortable and they built a house in Framingham which does,
which has was said to have existed until modern day when we
learned very quickly once the house was restored, the Clay's
(51:02):
house was not the house built byPeter.
It's on the foundation. And that's where they lived
until Sarah passed away in 17 O3.
I think braiding that and then also the part where Rebecca went
to her execution. That was like the saddest part
to Rex and the call. The story is done, but I like to
hope that the last few years forher were comfortable and she was
(51:23):
able to, like, relax and breathe.
I can imagine her state she would have been in, the trauma
that she went through. There's some legend that I guess
she never left her house after. Very rarely would she leave.
I don't blame her at all. Yeah.
But she was surrounded by a lot of family that moved down there
(51:46):
as well, wasn't she? From not only from like her
stepchildren, her children and some of her nieces, some of her
nephews, they all moved out there as well.
Even from not just her sisters, but her brothers also.
They moved out there. And I think her son Caleb's
house is still standing. It's more of like a business
(52:07):
office space now from what I've seen, but it's still standing,
as is her nephew's Benjamin's house.
Benjamin Nurse's house is still standing as well.
She has a descendant that peopleare very familiar with her name.
Yes, Her name is Clara Barton. She is a descendant of her
daughter Hannah. And I never knew that.
And when I found that out, I waslike, oh, my gosh.
(52:28):
Like everyone knows who Clara Barton is.
She's like one of the most famous nurses from history.
And I think had Sarah lived an extra 150 years, I think she is
very proud of who her granddaughter was.
Oh yeah, Clara was a very important person in history and
I think she definitely got that from her.
What her motivation to do what she did from Sarah.
(52:51):
Maybe I'm biased, but I think she definitely got it from her.
Yeah, the tenacity that's in theDNA.
Yes, that the town tenacity. Yeah, so we we can thank Clara
Burton for founding the AmericanRed Cross.
She was so important, such a valuable organization.
(53:13):
The things that they do, all kinds of emergency services,
it's amazing. Yep, and luckily by that point
Hannah, her daughter Hannah was already married.
So there's It's like if Sarah was executed, never would have
happened. But if Sarah was never born, we
might not ever have the Red Cross.
Yeah, it. Is important.
(53:33):
She was so important and she wasthe baby of the towns and she
was the sister that was spared. But I just want to say before we
go, I like in your book, you compared her to Sarah, the
biblical Sarah, and talked abouthow she's like the mother of
nations because she was one of the founders with her husband of
(53:57):
Framingham and Salem's end community, all the diaspora from
Salem and all the children and stepchildren that she parented
over the years. And it's, she's just so
overlooked except for -3 sovereigns.
(54:19):
We're very, very grateful to have three sovereigns for Sarah
I. But again, it's so like old.
Like I hate saying the 80s is old because of the time, but I
mean, like, no one really knows it because it was a pair on PBS
and who watches PBS anymore? Come on.
But it's I would love for it to be remade.
(54:39):
I think now given with everything going on the world I
think now will be a perfect timefor it.
I already have it fan casted. And if anyone is wondering who I
want to play Sarah Cloys. And if she ever hears this, Eve
Bess who played Rainey's Targaryen in House of the
Dragon. Please consider this.
I have no money to offer you butI want you to Sarah and Emma
(55:03):
Thompson to play Mary Este. Oh, that.
Would be excellent. I haven't decided on Rebecca yet
though, maybe Meryl Streep, but that's I really need a budget
for that and I don't think I'd ever have that budget.
But if they want to do it for free, you're more than welcome
to gladly write the script. Little pro bono acting.
Yeah, why not? It's a thing, right?
(55:24):
All. Right.
Thank you ever so much. This has been delightful.
It's such an important story to get told, and I really thank you
for joining us today. Thank you for sharing this
episode of Witch Hunt with us. Help us spread the word and grow
our community. Please subscribe to our YouTube
(55:45):
channels and share this episode or some clips to your social
media. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow. The Salem witch trials resulted
in witchcraft accusations against more than 150 people and
the executions of 20. So what went wrong?
We explore this and other facetsof the witch hunt in our new
(56:08):
podcast The Thing About Salem, premiering June 1st.
The Thing About Salem offers Bite Sides episodes in both
video and audio formats that youcan enjoy in 15 minutes or less.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Our ancestors experienced the Salem witch trials.
(56:30):
And here's a little taste of what you can expect from the
Thing About Salem. Possibly Doctor William Griggs
decides that the girls, oh, they're not sick in a natural
way. They're under an evil hand, just
like that one, Sarah. So what does it mean that
(56:51):
they're under an evil hand? The devil has come to Salem.
The devil's in Salem. Each week, the Thing About Salem
brings you information on a thing from the witch trials.
Episodes will stream on YouTube and all podcast platforms.
To get ready, find usoutaboutsalem.com.
(57:14):
Be sure to join us for Episode 1on June 1st.
Witch Hunt Podcast is raising money for the ultimate
opportunity to expand our globally recognized
documentation of witchcraft accusations, and we need your
help to make it happen. Your gift of any size can be
donated now at www.andwitchhunts.org/donate.
(57:36):
Help us fund our travel expensesto York, England to attend the
Witchcraft and Magic Conference.At University of York.
So we can learn from and connectwith top research experts in
this field. And do you want to learn even
more about the Salem Witch Charles and have fun doing it?
Check out our new podcast, The Thing About Salem, which
premieres June 1st. Our website aboutsalem.com has
(58:00):
more information on the show andon the Witch Trials One access
to exclusive content right now. Please join our Patreon as we
build our community. Go to patreon.com/about Salem to
Sign up today.
The Salem witch trials resulted in witchcraft accusations
against more than 150 people andthe executions of 20.
So what went wrong? We explored this and other
facets of the witch hunt in our new podcast The Thing About
Salem, premiering June 1st. The Thing About Salem offers
bite size episodes in both videoand audio formats that you can
(00:23):
enjoy in 15 minutes or less. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
I'm Sarah Jack. Our ancestors experienced the
Salem witch trials. And here's a little taste of
what you can expect from the thing about Salem.
Possibly Doctor William Griggs decides that the girls, oh,
(00:45):
they're not sick in a natural. Way they're under an evil hand.
Just like that one, Sarah. So what does it mean that
they're under an evil hand? The devil has come to Salem.
The devil's in Salem. Each week, the Thing About Salem
(01:08):
brings you information on a thing from the witch trials.
Episodes will stream on YouTube and all podcast platforms.
To get ready, find usoutaboutsalem.com.
Be sure to join us for Episode 1on June 1st.
Witch Hunt Podcast is raising money for the ultimate
opportunity to expand our globally recognized
(01:31):
documentation of witchcraft accusations, and we need your
help to make it happen. Your gift of any size can be
donated now at www.andwitchhunts.org/donate.
Help us fund our travel expensesto York, England to attend the
Witchcraft and Magic Conference at University of York so we can
learn from and connect with top research experts in this field.
(01:55):
And do you want to learn even more about the Salem Witch
Trials and have fun doing it? Check out our new podcast, The
Thing About Salem, which premieres June 1st.
Our website aboutsalem.com has more information on the show and
on the witch trials One access to exclusive content right now.
Please join our Patreon as we build our community.
(02:18):
Go to patreon.com/about Salem toSign up today.
Welcome to Witch Hunt Podcast. I'm Josh Hutchinson.
And I'm Sarah Jack. Today we have a very special
episode that's particularly meaningful to me.
We're talking with Antonio. Stecchi about his book.
Sober and Civil, which tells thestory of Sarah Kleiss, who
(02:42):
happens to be my great aunt. And my aunt, too.
That's because Sarah Klois was the younger sister of Rebecca
Nurse and Mary Este, who were both executed in 1692.
Unlike her sisters, Sarah survived the trials but spent
nine months in jail. Antonio really shows us not just
(03:03):
the accused witch, but Sarah theperson.
Through court records and careful research, Antonio
reveals the woman who inspired the 1985 PBS miniseries 3
Sovereigns for Sarah. What's fascinating is how
Antonio framed Sarah as an underdog, someone whose story
has been overshadowed by her more famous sisters.
(03:24):
In this conversation, we'll explore Sarah's life before,
during, and after the trials. We'll talk about her first
husband, Edmund Bridges, who seemed to have a talent for
getting into disputes, and her second husband, Peter Kleiss,
who stood by her throughout her imprisonment.
The dramatic moment when she walked out of church, slamming
(03:45):
the door behind her, leading to her accusation, feature
centrally in Sarah's story. Welcome back.
We are so excited. To talk about the Salem witch
trials with you today, can you remind our listeners about
yourself and tell us what we were going to talk about today?
I am Antonio Stuckey, I've been on the podcast before.
I did the episode about being a tour guide in Salem and today
(04:09):
I'm here to talk about my book Sober and Civil, which is about
Sarah Kois. Why did you write sober and
civil? The reason why I wrote Sober and
Civil was because I felt that a poll to Sarah's story.
I started working at the Homestead a few months prior and
(04:30):
I just felt this really weird poll to her.
And I decided, and I purchased acopy of the Day by Day Chronicle
and I was just moseying through and I realized I'm like, oh,
everyone kind of talks about Rebecca or Mary.
I'm like, there was a third sister.
And I like writing about underdogs, like research,
looking into them. And I just fell down the rabbit
(04:51):
hole and I was like, and she's the one, I hate to say it like
this, but it's like she's the one that survived, you know what
I mean? And it's always those ones that
we don't know a lot about because their stories didn't
have that dramatic ending. I hate to say it like that.
It's like Catherine Parr with Henry the Eighth, you all know
(05:13):
about, like Anne Boleyn or 'cause I mean graphic, but her
head was cut off. You know what I mean?
We know about Rebecca and Mary because they were unfairly
executed. No one really knows about Sarah
because they're like, oh, she survived.
It doesn't matter. But it does matter because she
was in jail from the beginning of the trials to the end of the
trial. So she was there.
(05:34):
She saw every, well, almost everything.
Yeah. And I want to remind our
listeners that my ancestors are the town family and that Rebecca
Nurse was my ninth great grandmother and Mary Estee was
my ninth great grandmother. And so Sarah was my aunt.
And getting a look at your book told me more about that third
(05:58):
sister like you're talking about.
There is one part of hers. And then see that I've been
fascinated with and it'll probably come out in our talk
today, so I won't spoil that. But learning more about her and
thinking about, as you said, shewas there that whole time, that
her view of what was happening so awesome.
(06:18):
What did you want to say throughyour book?
Something about Sarah and telling it through her
perspective was what I felt needed to be told because I feel
like there's a lot of misconceptions out there about
the witch trials. And as I mentioned earlier,
Sarah was there for the whole thing.
(06:39):
So it kind of so it's like it makes sense.
Like, oh, well, if I'm going to be talking about the whole scope
of the witch trials, might as well be someone who's there for
the whole thing. That way I can show what's going
on and how this affected her. With the first accusations was
Tajiba and Sarah Good and Sarah Osborne, and then Rebecca's
accusation and the first execution with Bridget Bishop
(07:02):
and then the final executions and then the Court of Judicature
and eventually her being broughtto a grand jury and then being
released. And then there from the very
quick, like after that point, there were trials, but no one
else was being convicted or executed because the governor, I
don't want to say begrudgingly stepped in, but people were
(07:25):
noticing like, hey, man, like these people that are being
released are being released on the same base of evidence that
we are convicting people. And so he's like, it's not
making sense. And the governor's like, oh,
yeah, that's right. Like, I maybe I should say
something. Maybe I should do something.
Then he did. And Chief Justice William
Stoughton was not happy about that.
But yeah. Can you tell us a little bit
(07:50):
about Sarah's family for the towns?
I just picture them to be a verydelightful family and that was a
vibe, something I hope shown through.
Something I found really fascinating was that the mother
and all of her daughters were church members.
I don't remember if I was able to find out about her sons, but
(08:12):
I wouldn't be surprised if they were.
But from the shows, the character of the family, very
respectful, very kind. They were not the wealthiest
family, but they definitely werecared about one another.
There was a point in my research, though, where I was
like, oh, how were they? Because it brought up a lot of
questions. Because jumping ahead in the
(08:34):
time like a little bit, when Sarah's first husband passed
away and she went back home, there was kind of like a nobody
took her in because she had nowhere to go.
And then within a few weeks or about a month, she was asked to
leave Toxfield because they couldn't support her.
And I'm like, and it kind of made me go, I'm like, well,
maybe they weren't as much caring as they much as I thought
(08:56):
they were. But then I'm like, well, also,
this is back when you had eight children.
Most families had 6 to 8 children and having another six
mouths to feed, it's not something you're able to do.
So I'm like, OK, they definitelycared about each other.
You know what I mean? Because I think there's a very
unfair misconception that Puritans didn't love their
children, didn't love their wives or husbands or relatives.
(09:19):
But I think the towns were very a very close family and it shows
later on in when people are petitioning for people to be
exonerated. So I'm not going to jump ahead
because I wasn't spoiling anything, but.
So they were a really large family.
The towns, yes, on I think I didthe math on average each of the
six, I think it was 6 town children, but Mary, Sarah,
(09:43):
Rebecca, Joseph, John, Edmond, Ithink each of them had between
6:00 to 8:00 children. I think Edmund though had the
most out of nine or more, at least nine that survived.
Wow. Yeah, very.
I can imagine having to do Christmas gifts, no Christmas
bands, so I guess. But nowadays I can imagine
(10:04):
having to do Christmas for that.Yeah, but you make some good
points there. Your nine children, you had to
have a lot of children because alot of them unfortunately didn't
survive. But then the Puritan families
did grieve their children. Obviously, you see some of that
(10:25):
in the Salem witch trials testimony where they're having
dreams or visions of, you know, murdered children coming to
visit and that kind of thing. Yes, exactly.
Especially from Anne Putnam's senior with I think it was her,
I think her daughter's, the daughter that passed away.
Her name was Sarah also, and it is interesting.
(10:48):
I something I still think about,though.
I'm like, had this happened 40 years prior and Putnam senior
would have been accused of witchcraft because that's
exactly what happened to Alice League.
And so I, that's something I like off topic, but it's
something that even if you look further and further back, you
still see that that grieving andeverything.
And Sarah even lost two children, I think.
(11:10):
Granted, the one that she lost was about 22 years old, but then
very quickly after she lost another child not long after
birth. Yeah, and we can see in colonial
Diaries as well, such Puritans as Cotton Mather and Samuel
Sewell grieved. Every child that became I'll,
(11:31):
every child that passed, they mourn.
What should we know about Sarah's life prior to marriage?
She was the youngest, she was the baby of a family.
And something that is really people like to theorize on is
her relationship with her older siblings, specifically her
(11:52):
sisters, obviously, because that's always kind of like what
we focus on and what I focus on,obviously.
But she was, there was a 20 yearage gap between her and Rebecca.
There's a lot of debate as to when Sarah was born, but through
some sleuthing and through a little bit of math, I was able
to conclude that Sarah was born around 16411642, give or take.
(12:17):
And so she was about 21 years younger than Rebecca.
And so I feel that while later in life they were close, I feel
like the sister that she looked up to more it was Mary, because
Mary was only 7 years older thanher.
And so I think Mary played that role of like the older sister
who's like, hey, this is what life is like.
Like I'm going to help you. I'm going to teach you maybe.
(12:39):
I'm sure they picked on each other a little bit.
They got into their spats and their arguments.
But obviously back then things were different.
And so she grew up with all of her older siblings.
She was one of the last ones to be married.
She stayed with them. And then it's kind of just
interesting just to kind of lookat it and wonder about who her
(13:01):
maybe her favorite sibling was. You know what I mean?
Unfortunately, we'll never get that answer unless somehow Sarah
Cloyce appeared right next to me.
Answer that question, but it's just something that's nice to
think about. Thank you for that information
about her early life. What should we know about
Sarah's first husband? Wow, he was a character.
I'm not saying he was a troublemaker, but I reading a
(13:28):
lot of the stuff about him wherehe was kind of getting into
disputes with the golds or he was getting disputes with the
wealthy merchants in Salem Town,being brought in and out of
court for her wearing a back then they call her a Perry wig,
but we would know it now as a wig.
I feel like he was trying to make his life better, if that's
(13:52):
the word. I want to, if that's how I want
to describe it. He was trying to like be like,
oh, like I'm just as like worthyas everyone else.
I can do this. Unfortunately, they didn't think
that, so he was always getting in trouble.
And so I couldn't really imaginehow Sarah felt about this.
For instance, like the first major issue was with John Gould,
(14:14):
and they had to leave Topsfield because of it.
If I was Sarah, I would have been so angry at my husband, but
he's making me pick up and leavemy family and have to go to
Salem Town where I totally have to reorient my life, figure out
a new way to make money because now I'm not growing crops.
(14:36):
Now I'm living in town where I live on an acre instead of eight
1020 acres of land and a new wayof surviving.
Even he was her first husband. We don't have any letters or
journal entry showing like what the relationship was like, but
I'm sure it was one of the leastmutual respect.
And they had five or six children together.
(14:58):
But he was a Jack of all trades.Obviously.
He was a farmer. He did work as an attorney, for
Pete's sakes. He worked with Philip English.
When as soon as like, Philip English arrived to town, he
started working with him. And other people were like, oh,
you're working with him now. And then they sued him over it.
Then they also said that he was saying, like, these slanderous
things. And he's like, no, I'm not.
It's just interesting. Though.
(15:18):
Sarah really kept in the background for a lot of it.
She didn't get involved, which really makes me wonder, had
Edmund not died and they were still married by the time Sarah
was accused, what he would have done for her.
He definitely was not Peter Kois.
(15:38):
But it just, that's another question.
I'm like, I wonder what he wouldhave done for Sarah and her
moment of need because granted, she wasn't it.
So that was her place. She was to keep quiet, you know
what I mean? But still.
But would have he been in jail with her?
Exactly too I given that who he was and they were, I think he
(16:00):
very easily would have found himself accused.
He was not very well liked. He had a lot of issues, I
shouldn't say. Yeah, I know he was not well
liked. He had issues with a lot of
people who play very important roles in the witch trials.
The minister, John Higginson, did not like him.
And so it's a very interesting hypothesis or something,
(16:22):
something I would love to see inlike an alternate timeline.
Not obviously. Visually I like to see like
written down. Oh, this is what could happen.
Sounds like it's time for you toput a fiction book together.
Oh well. Hi.
Sarah. I am working on one, just not
about it's, it's takes place during the witch trials, just
not, yeah, not focusing on the Salem witch trials.
(16:46):
Yeah, The core transcripts that you shared, it really painted
this evident conflict that was happening between the community
members. And it's hard to see those
earlier decades knowing what's coming up in 1692.
Like you feel the dread, but it also really, it kind of reminded
(17:07):
me of Hugh Parsons over in Springfield who was convicted in
Boston. He wasn't liked.
I think we have probably more ofhis comments and more records of
the way that he was offending people, Less hearsay even maybe.
But it just really showed that there were these individuals in
(17:31):
the communities that weren't just getting in line and being
quiet. They were trained to be humans
with personalities and desires and wanted to establish
themselves the way they wanted to.
And Edmund wanted to wear a wig.Yeah, heaven forbid he wants to
wear a wig. And then even clearly people
(17:52):
were so ruffled by it. I mean, Nicholas Noise wrote an
essay about it. Not admin specifically, but just
the whole idea of it. I think he just wanted to do
whatever. But I always very much imagined
like, Sarah being a no nonsense person.
So I can only imagine the conversations they had home.
Yeah. So what was going on with the
(18:14):
Taverns? I saw a transcript or a letter
or a report. What was it?
A letter plate scripts in the future, so I don't want to say
everyone had a Tavern back then,but you definitely knew there
was Edward and Sarah Bishop. There was not Bridget Bishop for
anyone who still believes that. But loud and clear, Bridget
(18:36):
never owned one. There was John Proctor who owned
one. It's just the the usage of a
Tavern was a little bit different depending on where you
were. So if you were like John Proctor
or Edward Bishop out in the village or Salem Farms, you you
really relied heavily on traffic.
Whereas if you lived in the townlike Admin and Sarah, you
(18:57):
didn't. You relied on it.
Yeah, but you were always going to get someone who was
travelling through or wanted to stop by for a pint.
But even though if you had a Tavern, you had to follow so
such strict guidelines, like youcan't serve alcohol past this
time. You can only serve this much
alcohol throughout the whole day.
And then if you get caught selling it, not only will your
(19:19):
patron be fine, but you yourselfwill be fine as well.
You can't sell. I mean, obviously back then
there was a 17th century. So you're going to see very
racist kind of segregation. You can't sell cider or ale to
indigenous people. And Sarah and Edmund got in
trouble for that because they did.
And even a few men who really were drinking a little too much
(19:41):
at the Bridges Tavern because they were fined for being drunk
publicly. And they're like, I just got it
over at Edmund's Tavern. Luckily, Sarah was not the one
who got in trouble for it. Edmund took the fall for it.
But even their children were asked to testify in some of
these cases, being like, oh, yeah, I served.
I served this and this for him or no, I didn't.
(20:01):
But it's just if I lived back then.
I would want to be a Tavern keeper because that is where you
get to see the most stuff. Because even you see with
Nathaniel Ingersoll, you get like a front row seat to all of
this. Like Drum.
Your life's never dull if you'rea Tavern keeper.
That's the conclusion I've come to.
And that's not because there wasa bunch of fun happening in
(20:22):
there, because that wasn't allowed.
Exactly like you, you could. I wouldn't be surprised if I
read in those rules that's like you cannot breathe.
Like you have to hold your breath and have to do this and
this. I would not be surprised, but it
was still a very like rambunctious place.
Yeah, I know people got in trouble for having shuffleboard
(20:47):
and games going on. Apparently wasn't cool to play
games in a bar. Yeah, clearly you just.
You can't drink one thing. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, but I thought one that wasfunny in in your book, somebody
was reported to have drank or they consumed 3 quarts of cider
(21:10):
in one sitting. And I'm like, that's 6 pints of
cider. That's a pretty healthy amount
of it's more than a six pack of beer.
Yeah, like I would love to know what they put in it.
Yeah, yeah. How strong was it?
Yeah, I I know they didn't really drink water as much as
(21:30):
people think they did. There were different strengths
of ales and ciders and stuff back then, but still like to
have at least three or four people get in trouble for over
drinking. I'm like, Sarah, what were you
putting in this You. Walking out all wobbly.
Yeah. It makes me think of the is it
(21:51):
the was it Now I'm not with the waslers that were demanding the
apples and cider. Yeah.
Yeah, in Salem Village, the guysdemanding the cider that one
year. Yeah, pretty.
And then they like stole a bunchof apples or threw them or it
was like a whole. Thing with they.
(22:11):
Tore down fences. They did everything to that poor
guy. Who was the one guy in town that
had apple cider at that moment, apparently.
Listen, people think these Puritans were just this uptight
bunch when they really were not like religiously yes, but that
was for one day a week. The rest of the week they
(22:33):
clearly weren't these like up type people.
They were they had fun back then.
Secretly, they definitely had fun.
They were just like us. I mean, I think that's so
important and I think that's part of what you're doing in
your book is showing Sarah Town Bridges close is a person.
(22:58):
We are people. You were able to touch on a lot
of the accused and when you're looking at the accusations and
just what's being said it I'm it's not making me think, oh,
they're practicing witchcraft. It's just, oh, why are they
choosing this person to attack in such a, to say that they are
(23:20):
being attacked with the chains and stuff.
So yeah, it really portrays her as a human.
Yeah, exactly. And I think this whole time when
writing it, I almost felt like she was like looking over my
shoulder the whole time. Granted, because at least three
or four of the chapters I was watching 3 Sovereigns for Sarah.
So I had a very distinct image of Vanessa Redgrave in my mind.
(23:43):
And I still fully picture Vanessa Redgrave as Sarah
Cloyce. That's who she is, is Vanessa,
Right. And she's I, she just is this.
She's so fascinating. I just wish there was there was
more out there about her just toshow who she was because she had
such an interesting life. But again, but had the witch
(24:08):
trials never happened, we would never have known anything about
her there. The record would be there, but
we wouldn't know a lot about her.
Very. True.
Yeah, There's very few records for the women.
And you don't, you don't have letters, Diaries from a lot of
the people, but especially from the women.
(24:28):
We don't have their written words or even what other people.
We just have what other people wrote about them.
Yep. And that was not very much.
Exactly, and it's something I always remember is that history
is written by the victors and luckily Sarah will have been
(24:49):
pretty deep, not to say decent. She had a good reputation prior
to the trials, so she's written very favorably and also helps
that Rebecca and Mary are written about very, I shouldn't
say very. They are always written very
well about by people. But I like to classify my book
(25:10):
about Sarah as her story. It's women's history, not about
the men. Obviously the men in her life
played a very important role, but this is about her.
This is about her sisters and how the situations that the men
around her, they got her into. And I again, people are going to
(25:30):
be like, wow, he's so much hating on men.
I'm like, I'm not. I'm being very upfront.
This it was a man's world back then and she and her story is
written by men. I need repeat takes.
I'm a man and I wrote her story,but I tried to go about it in a
very unbiased way. And if there's like questions
(25:52):
about being a woman, I always I would ask my mom or my
grandmother because I don't wantto say like this and this and
this. I want to be correct.
It's so important to tell the women's stories because the men
were in all the positions of power and authority and they're
(26:12):
the ones who made the history. At least like you said, the
victor gets to write the historyand they were the powerful ones.
So that's the history that we got was the men.
So I really love any opportunityto get to see inside a woman's
(26:33):
mind and in in her life at that time.
Yes, it's it. I just think reading
historically about women is so much more fascinating because
you they're either one of two things.
They're either the demure woman who is very complicit, or
(26:55):
they're, as some people like to say, like a she wolf, like the
complete opposite. They speak their mind very loud
and opinionated. Sarah Chloeus was very much in
between. She's very much an in between
person and I think, I hope I conveyed that.
Sarah Good literally turned herself into a she wolf.
(27:15):
Yeah, according Elizabeth. I was going to bring up Sarah
Good because talking about SarahBridges when she became a widow
and she was warned out of town. She.
Went and did something, she wentand got married.
But then there were some women, Sarah good.
I don't know what the status of her having been warned out.
(27:38):
I know she wasn't a widow, but nobody wanted her coming.
And when they said Dorothy, theybegrudged her.
They begrudged Sarah good. But clearly Sarah Bridges stayed
on the good side of people, eventhough she found herself in a
quite helpless situation momentarily.
(27:59):
Yes. I think what also helped is
there's no record of when Sarah married Peter Kloice.
However, there, if you do the math, with the birth of their
son Ben, who was stillborn in September 1683, if you count
back, it's at least January by the time of January when they
(28:20):
were married. And by early January, she's
still known as Sarah Bridges because she signed her mother's
will as Sarah. Well, this name, Sarah Bridges,
was written and she marked it with an X 'cause she might have
not known how to write her name.And so at least by January 1683,
she met Peter. She married him.
(28:41):
It's just during those three months between September of 1682
and January 1683, what did she do?
Where did she go? We don't really know.
Maybe had Sarah Koist gone to trial and there are depositions
being people coming testify, we might have known.
There might have been something that happened.
But I think Peter knew of her situation and married her very
(29:05):
quickly. They knew each other before they
were married. And that's something I never
knew, and it's something found out after I had written the book
and I had already uploaded it toIngram Spark and I had about a
month before it was going to be published.
And so I found one little mention of Edmund Bridges and
Peter Klohce working together inSalem Town.
(29:26):
And so I put that in just to clarify that they knew each
other. He very much, he saved her.
Peter saved her. He made very much her knight in
shining armor. Had he not married her, God
knows what would have happened. Maybe she would have married
somebody else. But she got very lucky to marry
in that amount of time and also helped that Peter was decently
(29:49):
wealthy. He was comfortable.
And if you reflect on to Sarah Goode, I don't know the amount
of time between her first husband's death and marrying
William Goode, but it didn't help that William Goode was not
wealthy. And that's what I just kind of
kept her in the same class whereSarah was able to go up a little
bit and be comfortable and be able to be taken care of and
(30:10):
have her other kids be taken care of.
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Yeah, and it it seems like Peter, he was really there for
her during the witch trials and also after as well.
Yes, Samuel Parris. He was there so much that even
Samuel Parris wrote it down in the journal in August of 1692.
(30:33):
It said, oh, Peter, Brother Cloyce has not been here for
quite some time. And so he was there.
He visited her. He made sure he was taken care
of. Luckily, back then visiting
relatives in jail was a lot easier than it is now, but he
was always there. He made sure she was taken care
of. And the town women were very
lucky that they had husbands that took care of them.
(30:55):
Isaac also made sure Mary was taken care of.
Francis, I don't even need to say anything more.
They love their wives. And again, had Edmund Bridges
been alive, I don't know. He.
I really don't know. Yeah.
Not to slander him because I don't want any descendants to be
mad at me, but it's just based off the records.
(31:17):
What we have is I have to be honest.
Yeah. And if he was trying to defend
her in court, would that have carried as much weight as
somebody like a Peter Kloice, who has a clean reputation and
is involved in the community in positive ways, interacting with
other people at least? Exactly, Yeah.
(31:41):
So what should we know about theSalem Witch trials to understand
Sarah Kloice experience as an accused?
When people ask why someone's accused, it's usually a few
different things. Oh their reputation association?
They were just named by a confessor or someone who was
accused for no for. They were just named Sarah
(32:03):
Kloice. I firmly think that she was
accused because of her association to Rebecca.
We don't know why Rebecca was accused in the 1st place.
There's a lot of different theories.
And it had nothing to do with their mother being accused of
witchcraft. I'm silencing that right now.
There's only one mention of it, and even then I don't even think
that's the reason why. I think it's purely because
(32:25):
Rebecca was accused. And also didn't help that on
March 28th, 1692, when they're all sitting there for the Sunday
services, Samuel Paris starts doing the sermon about Judas
betraying Jesus and stuff like that.
And everyone knows that Samuel Paris is talking about Rebecca
and probably Martha Corey because Martha Corey was also a
(32:46):
church member. But Sarah took that personally
and she walked out and she slammed the door behind her
allegedly. And then, according to Abigail
Williams, knelt before Man in Black and placed her hand on a
book, according to Abigail Williams.
And then apparently three days later, Abigail Williams said
that Sarah was a Deacon in a great witch's meeting and she
was serving blood and flesh to all these other witches, 40
(33:09):
witches total from March 31st toApril 4th.
So about 5 days, Sarah finds herself accused of witchcraft on
April 4th, 1692. However, there is a delay
between that complaint and the warrant being filed because
Hawthorne and Corbin, oh, this is getting anticipated.
And some things that people might not know is that Sarah
(33:31):
Kloice and Elizabeth Proctor were accused together.
Their names are on the same arrest warrant.
And after they go to the governor and they get they're
like, hey, can you guys like sitin on this examination?
Because we think this is going to be huge.
And they do when they agree. And so they signed the warrant
and then another within another three days.
By April 11th, 1692, Sarah is arrested and then she's brought
(33:57):
to the Salem Town meetinghouse with Elizabeth during they're
arrested and apparent, accordingto Samuel's school.
It was so packed in there, like it must have been absolutely
stunk with heat. So many people crammed into that
space. There is not much we know.
Sarah was questioned first. However, there is not a lot that
(34:18):
she said. There's only two lines that were
hers. This whole examination and
mostly the information about herspecter is coming from John
Indian Tituba's husband. I use the term husband loosely.
I think more so of a common law husband.
They were as in they're like, oh, they're both indigenous, so
therefore they're husband and wife.
(34:39):
But anyways, and so he's saying,oh, she bit me, she choked me,
she pinched me, she bit me till the blood came.
And Sarah's like, when did I do this?
When did I do this? And he's like, oh, just this
time, blah, blah, blah. And then she called him a liar
right in front of everyone. And according to Upham, no
(35:01):
matter how reliable or unreliable he may be, according
to Upham, there's the QS were saying, oh, there's a yellow
bird flying around her. The man in black is whispering
things in her ear. However, that's not in the
primary sources. So I don't know how true that
is. Then according to some sources,
most of the afflicted were very calm during her examination,
(35:24):
like they weren't like falling the floor thrashing around like
Rebecca's. And according and some sources,
Mary Wolcott was knitting the whole time.
But at some point, though Sarah,I it was unclear, but I
interpreted it as and Marilyn also interpreted it as Sarah
Koist passed out. She asked for some water and
then she slumped in her seat andthat was the end of her
(35:46):
examination. I think it was Abigail said that
her spirit has gone to her sister nurse.
And then Elizabeth, there's a cute question.
And then John Proctor's arrested.
And I never knew that. I thought John went home and he
was arrested from his home. I didn't know that John was
arrested from his wife's examination.
I guess you could say that's onething the Crucible kind of got
(36:06):
right. Because if you're watching the
Crucible, he is arrested during a hearing.
But again, I'm not saying that Crucible's entirely accurate.
And then there she's thrown in jail.
And I couldn't imagine, like, Rebecca's reaction, like, why
are you here? And I can only imagine like
that, like them seeing each other for the first time in
weeks and then they get shipped off to the Boston jail and they
(36:31):
stay there for at least three more months, four more months, I
think. I was just gonna say, can you
tell us with a little bit? There were multiple jails
holding the accused. Really it depended on where you
lived and when you were at leastlooking at 1692 trials as a
(36:54):
whole and when you were arrestedbefore the court of what you can
terminate was set up. They expected the trials to be
held in Boston. So those who were accused and
expected to go to trial were sent to the Boston jail.
So on April 12th, 1692, John Proctor, Elizabeth Proctor,
Sarah Klois, Rebecca, Martha Corey and Dorothy Good are
(37:17):
shipped off to the Boston jail because they were expected to go
to trial. However, interestingly, Mary SD,
when she's arrested, she is not shipped off to the Boston jail
right away. I'll get into that a little bit
later. But if later on though, you were
more than likely going to be held in either Ipswich or the
Salem jail, the Boston jail, once the trials got started and
(37:39):
by a certain point, those are the people who at least I
interpret it as you're not goingto be brought to trial anytime
soon. I don't even think a lot of, I
think only really Dorothy Good remained in the Boston jail and
maybe a few others. And again, it really depended on
where you were from. If you were closer to Ipswich,
you were in Ipswich. Closer to Salem, you were in
Salem. If you were from the Boston
(38:00):
area, you went to Boston for Cambridge.
There's also the Cambridge jail.I forget about that jail, but
the Cambridge jail too. And you had an ancestor that was
in one of these jails during thewitch trials?
This is actually perfect segue into Mary Estie.
As I said, Mary Estie was arrested on April, She was
arrested on April 21st and she stayed in the Salem jail for
(38:22):
that month on May 12th. Giles Quarry, Bridget Bishop and
a few others were ordered to go to the Boston jail, obviously
pending their trial. However, Mary stayed behind.
So it's very clear from the get go.
I think early on people were like, oh, Mary Estie, like no,
no, like it can't be. Which you would think also that
would be the case for Rebecca orSarah, but no.
(38:44):
But because on May 18th, I don'tknow where, they never specify
where, but Mary Estie is broughtto the court.
I don't know if it was at Salem Village or Salem Town, but they
basically dismiss her. They're like because the
accusers were chanting their statements against her except
for Mercy Lewis. Mercy Lewis then that I think
(39:07):
you're that night where the following day she basically is
on the brink of death. She's claiming to be attacked by
all these different specters ledby Mary Estee.
They also named John Willard anda few other people.
However, though there's and thenJohn, I think it was John Putnam
goes to around basically to try to get Mary arrested and then
(39:28):
also more of the afflicted or coming to John Putnam's house
where Mercy Lewis now was basically on her deathbed.
When this huge like scene kind of happens.
And it was like if you've ever been for those of you who are
listening, if you've ever been to the Rebecca Nurse homestead
or a 17th century house at all, they're very small.
So I how I would picture is Mercy is being kept on the first
(39:52):
floor in the bed, obviously, as I keep saying, on the brink of
death. Air quotes around that.
And you have Elizabeth Hubbard show up, Mary Walcott and Putnam
junior Abigail Williams. They all show up.
And then they all also start to fall into afflictions.
They're like, yes, Mary SD is there and she's attacking her.
She's strangling her with chainsor whatever.
(40:14):
And they name three more women. Alongside Mary Este, John
Willard, and I just remembered Mary D Rich, who was Elizabeth
Proctor's sister. They name Sarah Bassett, who is
the sister-in-law of Elizabeth Proctor, Sarah Proctor who is
the daughter of Elizabeth and John Proctor and Susanna Roots
who is my ancestor. Within a few hours, Mary Este is
(40:36):
arrested again from her son's home.
I couldn't like somehow they knew they were coming.
I'm sure they probably expected them to come and arrest her
again, but because she was so week from the last from being in
jail and she was still at her son's house recuperating.
And thank you, by the way, to Mary, who gave me most of this
information. But they according to his I,
(41:00):
according to the sources in historical legend, they put Mary
in the root cellar in the house and that's where she head.
And then they basically dragged her out of it and they arrested
her Josh and said, I know you'veboth been there.
You visited, it's common search,but I don't want people going up
to the property because it is technically private.
But you've been there. And so I couldn't imagine,
(41:23):
though, like hearing that, like they're coming closer and then
pulling you out and then you're off in jail.
And Mary Estie was questioned again.
And we don't have surviving records of that.
But on May 23rd, Mary Estie, Susanna Roots and at least six
or seven other people there at the Salem Village meetinghouse.
And they're made to perform a touch test and basically where
(41:45):
they're afflicted are being brought to them.
And if the accused are blind, they're blindfolded and their
hands put on the afflicted and their affliction stop is
basically a sign that they are the witch tormenting them.
And so Mary and my Aunt Susanna and all those other people,
they're like, Yep, there's enough evidence for a formal
trial. And they're all shipped off to
Boston. And that's where Mary finally
(42:07):
meets up with her sisters. And I'm sure maybe by that point
Sarah and Rebecca might have known that Mary was released,
but we're not sure. Or as Mary told them and she's
like, I was released, but clearly like I'm back here.
But now obviously with the wholething with Marcy Lewis and
almost killing Marcy Lewis, air quotes are on that again.
(42:28):
They found there's enough evidence to hold Mary for trial.
And for about a month, the sisters are together till June
to the June 1st, I think. When Rebecca's shipped to Salem
for her trial, her case was selected to be heard first.
However, according to Thomas Newton, once they saw all the
people whose cases they wanted to try, it was ticket bus, Sarah
(42:51):
Goode, Bridget, Rebecca, John Willard, Alice Parker and a few
others. They're like, this is too many
cases. And so they ended up selecting
Bridget's case to be held first,but Rebecca's was the next case
a few weeks later. And obviously, as we all know,
she was tried, found not guilty,and then they brought her back,
changed the verdict, convicted, sentenced to hang.
(43:14):
Meanwhile, Mary and Sarah were sent back to Salem on June 18th
and they were there. I'm sure they got that second,
that account though, from Rebecca when they got back.
And they're just like, what the heck, Like first Mary's released
and then rearrested, Rebecca's found but not guilty, then
convicted. Her verdicts change.
I'm sure Sarah's like, well, great.
(43:36):
It's nothing that can be done for me.
And then obviously they're therewhen Rebecca's executed.
That was the hardest part to write in my book, actually.
Those twist like that where Mary's arrested, released,
arrested again, Rebecca's not guilty, then she's guilty, and
Rebecca also gets reprieved and then the reprieve gets revoked.
(44:01):
So it must have been such a tumultuous roller coaster for
the town family and the sisters,especially in jail, watching
each other go through these things and not knowing what's
going to happen to me now. Yeah.
It's just like and then but thenthough after Rebecca's trial,
(44:25):
like I'm sure they fully expected to be up next, like up
in the for the next cases. Mary was brought to her grand
jury in August alongside Martha Corey, but nothing is done.
They're shipped off to Ipswich jail where they wait until
September. And by that .5 more people had
already been hanging, including George Burroughs, Martha Carrier
(44:48):
and John Willard and John Proctor and George Jacobs.
And finally they're brought. They're like, OK, like this is
it like they're going to be put on trial?
And then this is like the real like meat and potatoes of Sarah
Close's story because, and I'm sure like 'cause this is like
the big question as to why Sarahwas never brought to trial.
(45:10):
On September 9th, 1692, Mary Estes brought to her grand jury
and her trial and she's tried and convicted and sentenced to
hang, obviously. And then at the same time,
apparently Sarah's also brought to her grand jury and they send
out the witnesses. And by that point, they sent,
(45:30):
the witnesses had already been summoned.
And meanwhile, Sarah Klois and Mary S, you're being physically
examined and all that stuff. The witnesses are coming.
However, some witnesses don't show up.
The witnesses that don't show upare Mary Town, Sarah's
sister-in-law, and Rebecca Town,her niece.
Mary Town says that her family'snot well and Rebecca's falling
(45:53):
into some sort of afflictions. And then the court is like, no,
you have to come. Like, no ifs, ands or buts, Like
you have to come. And according to Marilyn Roach
and a few other sources, they doshow up.
And in the records of the Salem witch hunt, it's right there as
(46:13):
clear as day, indictment of Sarah Kloice for afflicting
Rebecca Town. And most people go, wow.
So her own niece accused her. My take on it is, no, I think
when she was there, she very clearly was not.
Well, the afflicted would have been there most definitely.
(46:34):
And I think they would have probably said something along
the lines of, oh, goody koi suspect here is attacking her
niece. Look at all this stuff.
He's tormenting her, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
And so they indict her for it. She's not only indicted for
that, she's indicted for tormenting Mary Walcott and
Abigail Williams. So she's charged on three
counts. However, because of that delay
(46:58):
of Mary and Rebecca Cumming, they have to postpone her trial.
And so she's made to wait. And a few, at least six or seven
more other people are tried and they're all convicted.
And by the end of this setting of the court in on September
17th, 15 people were trying, convicted.
(47:19):
Giles Quarry was already pressedto death.
And had Sarah been tried, she would probably wouldn't have
been the 16th. However, the court realized
there was no room for 15 people to be hanged at once.
And so they choose eight people.And out of those eight people
included Mary Estee. And Mary was one of the last
people hanged on September 22nd,1692.
(47:41):
And then Sarah is made to wait. It's after that the court is
like, oh, we're going to wait until November, which is
completely different from they've already done, they've
done monthly court settings and now they're like, oh, we're
going to wait till November. And so I'm sure Sarah's like,
OK, November is when done, but nothing happens.
And she's been in prison this whole time.
(48:02):
He's been in prison this whole time.
November 1st comes and goes and she's still there.
She's in the Ipswich jail because the Court of Wayan
Terminate was disbanded, not because the governor's wife was
accused, but because the governor was like, we need to go
back and we need to look at thisagain.
And so the court was disbanded and they set up the new Court of
Judicature, and that's when they're finally able to bring
(48:26):
Sarah to her grand jury. Actually, they redid her grand
jury and they never found enoughevidence from the indictments.
They were all returned ignoramusand I'm very sure that her jail
fees were up to date and she wasreleased.
After all those months and months, from April 11th until
(48:50):
the following year, through all the seasons and everything.
Nine months. Nine months in jail, yeah,
that's awful. So her jail fees must have been
paid because she was released. What was it like for her around
her community after? I couldn't imagine that.
(49:11):
I'm sure farms were left in disarray because everyone's
going to court to watch these show trials, which is basically
what they were. However, Peter Kloice is like,
we're not staying here very long.
He does play a very early role in getting Samuel Parris kicked
out of Sam Village. However, by, I think April 1693,
(49:32):
which is a few months after Sarah was released, they are
living in Boston. And then very quickly they move
to Sudbury, which is out near Marlboro, which is about an hour
away nowadays, by car. And back then it was like day's
journey or whatever. And they live there.
We know this at least by 1695 because Peter requested their
(49:54):
church membership be transferredto the church in Marlboro and
that's where they stay. Peter does become one of the
founding members of Framingham. It is, I think, known as
Danforth Farms. There is legend that Thomas
Danforth gave them land because he felt so bad.
However, Thomas Danforth did notreally play a role with the
(50:17):
trials until the very end. I think by that point Sarah was
already released. He was there during her
examination, so he would have recognized her.
However, I don't think he gave them this land.
I'm fully, if I'm being fully transparent, people can debate
me as much as they wish, but I don't think that's true.
But they were in Sudbury, and then eventually where they lived
(50:39):
in Sudbury became Framingham in 1700.
Peter was one of the town leaders basically.
So Sarah spent the last few years of her life very
comfortable and they built a house in Framingham which does,
which has was said to have existed until modern day when we
learned very quickly once the house was restored, the Clay's
(51:02):
house was not the house built byPeter.
It's on the foundation. And that's where they lived
until Sarah passed away in 17 O3.
I think braiding that and then also the part where Rebecca went
to her execution. That was like the saddest part
to Rex and the call. The story is done, but I like to
hope that the last few years forher were comfortable and she was
(51:23):
able to, like, relax and breathe.
I can imagine her state she would have been in, the trauma
that she went through. There's some legend that I guess
she never left her house after. Very rarely would she leave.
I don't blame her at all. Yeah.
But she was surrounded by a lot of family that moved down there
(51:46):
as well, wasn't she? From not only from like her
stepchildren, her children and some of her nieces, some of her
nephews, they all moved out there as well.
Even from not just her sisters, but her brothers also.
They moved out there. And I think her son Caleb's
house is still standing. It's more of like a business
(52:07):
office space now from what I've seen, but it's still standing,
as is her nephew's Benjamin's house.
Benjamin Nurse's house is still standing as well.
She has a descendant that peopleare very familiar with her name.
Yes, Her name is Clara Barton. She is a descendant of her
daughter Hannah. And I never knew that.
And when I found that out, I waslike, oh, my gosh.
(52:28):
Like everyone knows who Clara Barton is.
She's like one of the most famous nurses from history.
And I think had Sarah lived an extra 150 years, I think she is
very proud of who her granddaughter was.
Oh yeah, Clara was a very important person in history and
I think she definitely got that from her.
What her motivation to do what she did from Sarah.
(52:51):
Maybe I'm biased, but I think she definitely got it from her.
Yeah, the tenacity that's in theDNA.
Yes, that the town tenacity. Yeah, so we we can thank Clara
Burton for founding the AmericanRed Cross.
She was so important, such a valuable organization.
(53:13):
The things that they do, all kinds of emergency services,
it's amazing. Yep, and luckily by that point
Hannah, her daughter Hannah was already married.
So there's It's like if Sarah was executed, never would have
happened. But if Sarah was never born, we
might not ever have the Red Cross.
Yeah, it. Is important.
(53:33):
She was so important and she wasthe baby of the towns and she
was the sister that was spared. But I just want to say before we
go, I like in your book, you compared her to Sarah, the
biblical Sarah, and talked abouthow she's like the mother of
nations because she was one of the founders with her husband of
(53:57):
Framingham and Salem's end community, all the diaspora from
Salem and all the children and stepchildren that she parented
over the years. And it's, she's just so
overlooked except for -3 sovereigns.
(54:19):
We're very, very grateful to have three sovereigns for Sarah
I. But again, it's so like old.
Like I hate saying the 80s is old because of the time, but I
mean, like, no one really knows it because it was a pair on PBS
and who watches PBS anymore? Come on.
But it's I would love for it to be remade.
(54:39):
I think now given with everything going on the world I
think now will be a perfect timefor it.
I already have it fan casted. And if anyone is wondering who I
want to play Sarah Cloys. And if she ever hears this, Eve
Bess who played Rainey's Targaryen in House of the
Dragon. Please consider this.
I have no money to offer you butI want you to Sarah and Emma
(55:03):
Thompson to play Mary Este. Oh, that.
Would be excellent. I haven't decided on Rebecca yet
though, maybe Meryl Streep, but that's I really need a budget
for that and I don't think I'd ever have that budget.
But if they want to do it for free, you're more than welcome
to gladly write the script. Little pro bono acting.
Yeah, why not? It's a thing, right?
(55:24):
All. Right.
Thank you ever so much. This has been delightful.
It's such an important story to get told, and I really thank you
for joining us today. Thank you for sharing this
episode of Witch Hunt with us. Help us spread the word and grow
our community. Please subscribe to our YouTube
(55:45):
channels and share this episode or some clips to your social
media. Have a great today and a
beautiful tomorrow. The Salem witch trials resulted
in witchcraft accusations against more than 150 people and
the executions of 20. So what went wrong?
We explore this and other facetsof the witch hunt in our new
(56:08):
podcast The Thing About Salem, premiering June 1st.
The Thing About Salem offers Bite Sides episodes in both
video and audio formats that youcan enjoy in 15 minutes or less.
I'm Josh Hutchinson. I'm Sarah Jack.
Our ancestors experienced the Salem witch trials.
(56:30):
And here's a little taste of what you can expect from the
Thing About Salem. Possibly Doctor William Griggs
decides that the girls, oh, they're not sick in a natural
way. They're under an evil hand, just
like that one, Sarah. So what does it mean that
(56:51):
they're under an evil hand? The devil has come to Salem.
The devil's in Salem. Each week, the Thing About Salem
brings you information on a thing from the witch trials.
Episodes will stream on YouTube and all podcast platforms.
To get ready, find usoutaboutsalem.com.
(57:14):
Be sure to join us for Episode 1on June 1st.
Witch Hunt Podcast is raising money for the ultimate
opportunity to expand our globally recognized
documentation of witchcraft accusations, and we need your
help to make it happen. Your gift of any size can be
donated now at www.andwitchhunts.org/donate.
(57:36):
Help us fund our travel expensesto York, England to attend the
Witchcraft and Magic Conference.At University of York.
So we can learn from and connectwith top research experts in
this field. And do you want to learn even
more about the Salem Witch Charles and have fun doing it?
Check out our new podcast, The Thing About Salem, which
premieres June 1st. Our website aboutsalem.com has
(58:00):
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to exclusive content right now. Please join our Patreon as we
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