November 5, 2025 • 44 mins
Why do witchcraft accusations persist in modern India, and how do gender and caste inequalities fuel this cycle of violence despite legal protections?
Join Josh Hutchinson and Sarah Jack for a powerful conversation with Bharvi Shahi, currently pursuing her LL.M. at Christ University, Bengaluru, and Razina Ahmed, Assistant Professor of Law at the School of Law, Presidency University, Bengaluru about from their research work in Northeast India's tribal communities and international human rights law.
they explore the complex intersection of belief, tradition, and human rights violations in Northeast India's tribal communities related to witchcraft accusations.
What You'll Learn:
Understand the critical difference between cultural beliefs and harmful practices under international human rights law. Explore how accusations emerge within community structures when illness or misfortune strikes and medical care is inaccessible. Learn why India's state-level witchcraft laws face massive implementation challenges, and discover the reality of witch-hunt victim communities living in isolation. Our guests reveal how patriarchal structures weaponize supernatural accusations to control and exclude women.
Razina Ahmed shares firsthand research challenges, including the startling moment an NGO declined to help her visit a village of survivors, revealing how deeply stigma affects even those working in advocacy. Bharvi Shahi examines how freedom of belief becomes weaponized against the most vulnerable: widows, elderly women, and those with disabilities. This episode reveals how community fear, social isolation, and supernatural accusations create complexities that legal protections alone cannot resolve
Keywords: witch hunts India, tribal communities Northeast India, witchcraft accusations, gender-based violence, human rights violations India, superstition and law, vulnerable women, Assam tribal communities, Implementing Human rights, belief vs harmful practices
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh Hutchinson (00:00):
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts.
(00:02):
I'm Josh Hutchinson. Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today, we're exploring a critical issue that affects
vulnerable women across India, witchcraft accusations, and the
cycle of violence they create. Josh Hutchinson: Our guests,
Bharvi Shahi, a final year law student at the School of Legal
Studies, REVA University, currently pursuing her LLM at
(00:26):
Christ University Bengalaru and Razina Ahmed, assistant
professor of law at the School of Law, Presidency University,
Bengalaru, bring expertise from their work in Northeast India's
tribal communities and international human rights law.
Sarah Jack (00:43):
Learn how accusations rooted in beliefs
about supernatural harm intersect with gender
inequality, social isolation, and legal systems that struggle
to protect victims. Josh Hutchinson: This is a
conversation about stigma, silence, and survival.
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
(01:05):
Today, we have a special panel speaking to us about stigma,
silence, and survival, women accused of witchcraft in India.
Please introduce yourselves withyour name and a brief intro
about your research and expertise.
Razina Ahmed (01:23):
Hi. I'm, Razina.
I am working as an assistant professor at President's
University Bangalore. I'm also a research scholar, and
since the last four years, I have been working on witch hunts
in the northeastern part of India, in Assam, because in
Assam, we have many tribal communities which are actually
there, and among the tribal communities, like we know that
(01:46):
this whole superstition thing isquite a bit more, if we compare
it to the mainstream people. My research has been mainly
among two tribes, one which is called, the Boros, and the other
one, which is called the Rabhas,which are mainly, you can see
their prominence in the northeastern part of India, and
how the witch hunting goes aboutin these two tribes, and how
(02:09):
women have been mostly the victims of witch hunts when we
talk about these tribes. Bharvi Shahi: I am Bharvi Shahi,
and now I'm pursuing my LLM fromChrist University Benglaru and
I'm specializing in IPR and international trade law, and I
did my undergrad from REVA University.
(02:30):
So the topic what I have for today is like, it's on the
concept of belief, how belief play a very important role when
we talk about witchcraft or witch-hunt, and what is the main
difference between belief and harmful practices, when that
belief turns into a harmful practices.
So this is what I'll be discussing about.
Josh Hutchinson (02:52):
Bharvi, you've emphasized that international
human rights bodies distinguish between belief and harmful
practices. Can you elaborate on how
witchcraft accusations specifically target vulnerable
women, widows, the elderly, those with disabilities, and
what this reveals about underlying power structures in
(03:15):
societies? Bharvi Shahi: Okay, so basically
first I would like to explain how I feel that there is a
difference between belief and harmful practices with respect
to witchcraft. I feel that belief refers to the
acceptance that witchcraft or superstitious beliefs exist in
(03:35):
the current society. When those beliefs involve
certain actions that people think that these belief are
making some kind of a sin in thesociety or to say, like they are
just taking it as a base to killsomeone or harass them.
So that's what I feel, that whenpeople around make that if
(03:56):
someone is having some kind of abelief regarding any thought or
anything, and when they just go against them, just going
harassing, go on harassing them or doing any kind of violation
against them, or even killing them to an extent, I would say
that that's what becomes a harmful practices, because I
feel that as per how much I haveread, and all international laws
(04:19):
always said that you have a freedom of thoughts and
expressions, right? So that's a universal law that
is provided. So if I believe in certain
practices, like in India, I'll tell you my own experience.
So my mom tells me that, you know, whenever you comb your
hair, just don't leave your hairanywhere either.
You just store it off and just go throw it with the ugly
(04:42):
things, whether you burn it off or you just put it in the water
and throw it off. So if I'm doing that thing,
that's completely my personal belief.
No one can blame me that, okay, you are doing something like
this and something wrong happensaround me, then I'm responsible
for it, you know, no one has that right.
So, I feel that just because I have a belief, that doesn't mean
(05:03):
someone can come and say that something wrong around me is
happening because of me, becauseof certain superstitious belief
that I have. So when I was researching about
this belief, when particularly the question about elderly
womens, the widows, I feel when in the society where I stay,
it's basically because of the patriarchal thinking that goes,
(05:23):
because they think that when menare there, the women is
something, and if they are not them, like women can be treated
any way and everyone just need areason to harass them or to
exclude them from the society. So they take witchcraft as one
of the thing that, okay, that widow has touched something and
(05:44):
someone has eaten and now they're feeling ill or
something. I think that they will just hold
off that particular lady, and they'll think that it's because
of you, you did something and that's why everything is
happening. So this is how it goes.
I mean, I feel that way. Sarah Jack: Razina, your
research focuses on Northeast India's tribal populations.
(06:05):
How do traditional belief systems intersect with modern
legal frameworks when addressingwitch hunting, and what unique
challenges do tribal women face in these contexts?
Razina Ahmed (06:16):
When we talk about the tribal women in Northeastern
India, so what we can see are these are the indigenous
population of Northeastern India, so as we know about
indigenous population, this is the population which is actually
cut off from the other communities.
They like to stay within their own communities so they preserve
their culture, they preserve their tradition, they preserve
(06:38):
what is their belief system. Their belief system started with
worshiping nature, with believing the superstitions, or
in believing that there is a supernatural.
With that belief came the beliefin demons and the belief that
women being the weaker sex and being the weaker beings, so they
are an easy prey to demons, which had started as a
(07:01):
superstition and still it goes on.
Because among the tribal communities, what is going on is
when, whenever there is an illness or there is a famine,
there is anything related to that, to which they don't have
an answer, and human beings being inquisitive, we always
look for answer. Why is this happening to the
community? So rather than going to
(07:22):
hospitals, rather than going to people who can give them answers
about what is the reason that this is happening, they actually
look for someone within their community who can give them an
answer. Among the tribals, if I talk
about the two tribes that I'm studying, they have this village
person, or you can say the village doctor, whom they call
(07:43):
cobiras or ojha in Assamese. So this is the person who is the
one who can tell them the reasonwhy things are happening in the
village. If there is a disease that they
do, they have never heard of, they have never seen, supposing
schizophrenia, they don't know what are the symptoms.
They see someone has been attacked or something has
(08:03):
happened. The person is behaving
abnormally. They don't go to a doctor
firsthand. They don't visit.
First of all, when we talk aboutthese tribal people living in a
far off area from the mainland transportation infrastructure,
everything is a hurdle for them.So the first person they believe
in is a person who belongs to their own communities.
They'll go to the ojha. They'll tell them that something
(08:26):
has happened to this person, andthe ojha, who does not have the
requisite qualifications to decipher what is the illness,
what is the reason behind an illness, he will be the one who
will predict that there is a witch in this village who has
cast her magical spells. And the people who are governed
by nature, who still believe in the supernatural, who still
(08:48):
believe in other nature and in demon and in god.
Also, they are very inquisitive and curious that who is the
witch, and the ojha will finallygive them a name that this is
the woman who is the witch, and the villagers, they get
together, either in the panchayat, that is the local
self-government that they have, because everyone in the village,
they believe in it. It's not like we have someone
(09:10):
who goes against the belief system.
The community lives as a united community, so there is no one
who will go against, who will tell them that, okay, no, we
should visit a doctor and we should take a firsthand report
about what the doctor says aboutthe illness.
So, because the ojha said, the ojha is, you know, far more
important than any doctor who's staying mainstream, because no
(09:30):
doctor visits them because of the transportation facility.
There is no proper hospital. There is no proper
transportation for a doctor to visit them and make them aware.
So the ojha tells them they're okay.
There is a witch. The villagers, they get
together, and they decide on howto deal with the witch.
Either they will first find out if the witch is someone who is
(09:51):
single, then maybe they will decide what will be the fate of
that witch, either pelt stones at her, hurl abuses at her, and
finally threw her out of the village or outcast her.
If the witch that has been predicted by the ojha, that
witch has a family, the entire family is banished from that
particular village. So what we see is that belief
(10:12):
system that women are the ones who are weaker, and because
women are weaker, the demons canpossess them.
Earlier, like it started as a fact that demons can possess
both men and women, but this belief somehow changed its
course. And that belief system became
stronger, that a woman is the one who is weaker and so they
(10:34):
are the ones who are mostly possessed.
The man are just the ones who are not actually possessed, but
they belong to the family of thewitch.
So the men also need to be banished, but majorly we can see
the primary targets are women and the entire procedure of
victimizing a woman or the entire procedure of blaming a
(10:54):
woman for all the health crisis that is going on or anything
that is going on in the village,that starts with the prediction
of a person who does not have the qualification to call out
what is the reason behind a health crisis, or what is the
reason behind an anomaly that ishappening in the village.
Josh Hutchinson (11:13):
Thank you so much.
Bharvi, you mentioned witchcraftbeliefs have a global cultural
footprint. How do accusations against women
manifest differently across cultures, yet maintain similar
patterns of targeting the most vulnerable?
Bharvi Shahi (11:32):
So this is something I mentioned, because
when I was just going through and studying through the
materials that I found online, the reliable sources, so I found
that, when I was searching aboutIndia, how India is coping up
with all this witch-hunt and witchcraft process.
So I saw that, I came to an article, it talked about Africa.
(11:54):
So in Africa, like literally there are camps where they try
to protect womens who are exiledbecause of this concept of
witchcraft. Like they're doing some kind of
a witchcraft or they're practicing some kind of these
superstitious beliefs and everything.
So I was just going through thatarticle, and I realized that
even they had the same thing that, again, the same concept of
(12:17):
patriarchal mindset comes in play.
That they think that women, if they are not with a man or they
don't have a family, and you just, they're just some random
person. They just consider them random
person who has these superstitious belief and
everything around them is happening just because of them,
because they are the sinisters, because they are the ones who
(12:39):
just do all these stuffs, where people are getting harmed
because of them. I mean, they don't really think
logically. I feel that the logic just
vanishes away when it comes to beliefs and everything.
We don't support the facts that,okay, if you're telling someone
that this is the person, how areyou even blaming them?
What is the reason for your blame?
(13:00):
Can you just justify it? So I, this is something I felt
very weird also that if you can't justify a blame, how can
you just blame someone? I feel everything has a logic
behind them, behind everything. So this is one thing, and then I
felt like, I mean, if I go on the legal aspect, I will just
(13:21):
talk about the legal aspect. So specifically in India,
because Razina talked about India, so I just thought of
adding this thing. So, India doesn't have a central
law for this. Only the states, like Jharkhand
and Bihar, there are there otherstates in India, so they have
certain laws about it. So recently there was this bill
passed in India, but then again there's this discussion of
(13:44):
implementation. I feel that not only just in
India, but globally, this problem is there that, okay, you
do have laws, you do have the centers, commission, but then
how, to what extent are you ableto implement those laws?
This is the thing and yes, globally, the most common thing
that I have observed is, again, that the same thing, the
(14:07):
patriarchal mindset, which I can't really leave off, because
it keeps on sticking into my mind, okay, this is something
very common, like people, no matter whether it's a developed
country, developing country, or underdeveloped country, all
three have the same concept. It comes to them like in the
same manner. Yeah.
Sarah Jack (14:29):
There seems to be institutional silence.
You mentioned that there are laws, but implementing them is
very difficult. How does that get resolved where
laws can be implemented? Bharvi Shahi: Sure.
See, this is something, yeah, even I have to really go through
(14:52):
it, because I haven't really researched upon it.
But as a law student, I would feel that it's always about
creating awareness. It's always about holding those
people liable who are actually responsible for this, because if
we keep on leaving them, statingthat, okay, this is how it goes
in that particular area, we can't just go there and hit our
(15:14):
head and get involved in these stuffs.
We have seen many people, many officers, when they don't, they
are scared to get into those tribal areas, telling that if we
go and get involved in there, all those kinds of matter, they
will ultimately think that we are also one of them.
I mean, you can't just say that you are there, you have to be
there. You are someone chosen so that
(15:36):
you can implement those laws. So it is the awareness, I feel.
That one of the reason, people are not so aware about it, and
they kind of, irrespective of the fact how much educated we
are, still people have this belief and they don't want to
get involved. So this thing is some, I feel
that it should be not just takenas a secondary matter, rather it
(15:59):
should go into the primary lane.I feel that way.
Yeah. Razina Ahmed: Okay.
I would like to add here, so when we talk about
implementation, right? So implementation can be done
only when I think it aligns withthe belief system because the
problem, when I'm doing my research with the tribal people
here, the problem is they might know of the law, they might be
(16:21):
aware of the law, but if the lawdoes not align with the belief
system that they have, I don't think they're going to accept
that. Because, like I said, that this
is a community which lives within themselves.
They're not really okay to mingle with the other
communities. They're not okay with mingling
with other people. They believe in the people.
They believe in the people who are there with them, so they
(16:42):
don't believe in outsiders. Some law has come, let it come.
That is the attitude that they have.
So I think implementation is notpossible until and unless we
study about what is the belief system and how the
implementation can be actually aligned with the belief system
until and unless it is aligned with the belief system.
Or maybe we can just pray for a miracle that happens, that their
(17:05):
entire mindset gets changed and they somehow understand that
superstition cannot be the logicbehind giving punishment to
someone and you are in no position to punish someone just
because you just think that, okay, that person has got some
supernatural power because of which the person has been
casting spells on the village. What I feel is implementation,
(17:25):
yes. I agree with Bharvi that yeah,
India does not have a central legislation, but if I talk about
Assam, the Northeastern state. In Assam in 2018, actually, your
state legislation was being passed, which was very, very
stringent. And if we talk about the tribal
communities, the communities that I'm working with, so when
we see the people who are involved, it's not like one
(17:47):
person that you can single out that one person and you can
punish that person for what he has done.
It's the entire village which isinvolved.
So it's like something that theyhave to taken a decision in a
united way. Everyone is standing with
everyone when they're taking thedecision, because that is the
belief. That is what they believe in.
They believe that the woman is awitch.
(18:08):
The woman is a witch to the entire village.
It's not one person who is casting the punishment, who is
dictating the punishment. There is one person, obviously
who is predicting that, okay, this person is the witch, but
belief is there for the entire village, for the entire
community. It's not one person, so we can't
single out one person and punishthat person.
It'll be like punishing the entire village.
(18:30):
So what I'm saying is we, till now India has been taking
cognizance of witch hunting onlywhen there has been a murder,
there has been a rape, under theother provisions of the central
legislation. But yeah, the states which have
witch hunting in the rise, they have their own legislations.
The problem with implementation comes because of the belief
system, because no one, you can't single out one person, two
(18:53):
people, or three people, that only three people are
responsible for that entire incident that has happened.
It's the entire village which takes part in this outcasting.
And yeah, just like Bharvi said,it is actually true that people
are really, they dread going to the tribal villages here.
I just like to, tell about one of the incidents that happened
with me. So, in Assam, actually, we have
(19:15):
one particular village, which iscalled Daini Gaon.
So in that village, there are the victims of witch hunts who
stay there. There are nearly about 20 to 25
families which are staying in that village.
These are all people who have been outcasted from the village
because they were, they were named as a witch.
They have been outcasted from the village.
So these people, they stay in that particular village.
(19:36):
They have formed their own community and they stay in the
village. I had read about articles and I
wanted to visit that village. So to visit that village, I
wanted to take someone with me, who can help me to get
acquainted with the villagers. So I approached an NGO, which
works in that particular region.When I went to them and I told
them that I want to visit that village, what they told me
(19:59):
actually surprised me. They told me that, you want to
go, you can go on your own. We are not going with you,
because when you go there, they might just, kill you and they
might just dump you there. So we won't take the risk.
If you want to go, just go aloneand, think about your life
before going there. So that is the belief, that
these are people who already know magic spell.
(20:19):
So this is an NGO, which is working for the betterment, for
the upliftment of the people. And that is the belief system
that they have. They are not going to the
village, they are not talking about the, about the villagers.
So just think about it that. An NGO is not willing to work
with those people who are, who is going to help them?
(20:40):
No one, I don't think anyone would want to mingle with them
because thinking that, okay, these are all people with
magical power. You go near them and they will
just kill you there and dump youthere.
So no one goes to them. No one listens to their ordeal.
What actually happened with them?
Are they the victims? Are they not the victims?
How do we get the answer if we don't visit these people?
(21:01):
And being activists, these are the people who should be taking
the first step. These are the people who should
encourage other people that yes,you should visit them, you
should talk to them. You should know what actually
happened to them. But no, instead of doing that,
they are demotivating other people also, that okay, if you
go there, they're going to kill you.
You're not going to come back alive.
That is the whole situation. So I don't know how, you know,
(21:25):
if there is a law, there is a belief system and the law goes
against their belief system. Law is saying this is wrong.
The entire thing of branding someone a witch, that is wrong.
According to them, there has to be some reason because of which
this is happening and because they're not aware of, or they
don't have any education, they don't want to mingle with other
(21:46):
people, they don't have any ideawhat is going on.
So they tend to stick to whatever belief they have been
believing in since ages, whatever their ancestors have
taught them, whatever their elderly in the village have
taught them. They seem to align to those
beliefs. So I think that until and unless
we have the law or the legal system aligned with the belief
(22:07):
system, and maybe we find out a way that how we can mingle with
their belief system, go to them,talk to them, bring them out in
the open. I don't think implementation to
a larger extent would be possible.
I have a couple of questions about the village and
that scenario that you shared. Did you go?
(22:28):
Did you go? You did not.
Okay. And that's fine.
That I was just curious. And my other question is, so it
sounds like it's a village of outcast families and there's not
much external contact going in, but is the fear that, what I
wanna understand about the risk of violence to visitors, is that
(22:52):
because of them protecting themselves, because of what they
have gone through and they don'ttrust outsiders?
Why is there a fear that they would not accept a visit?
Razina Ahmed (23:04):
No, I don't think they won't accept a visit,
because I told you, like I read some articles, which has been
written by some of the, you know, publishing houses of India
or newspapers of India, where actually the journalists, the
photographer, they went there asa team, they went there.
They have taken interviews of the people.
They're just normal people. I have seen photos of the
(23:24):
villagers. So they're just normal people.
It's not like they they won't accept a visit from outsiders.
I don't think that. So I also tried to contact with
the journalist who actually wentthere, and she told me that yes,
you can visit them, but yeah. They'll take time to open up
because they tend to not believe, because they have been
outcasted. They're their own people, so
they tend to not believe. Maybe if you can take someone
(23:46):
along with you whom they can believe in, that that way maybe
they will open up, they'll talk to you.
Otherwise they might feel uncomfortable talking to you.
That is the reason that I had tovisit an NGO, so that I can take
someone with me, and because of which I could not visit, because
no one was willing to go with me.
So I didn't have anyone to go and If I would have gone alone,
then maybe they would not believe in me or not opened up
(24:09):
to me, not talked about what happened with them.
But the photos that I have seen,which has been shared, which is
also available online, they're just normal people living a
normal life. They're smiling, they're having
their cattle, they have their own families, they have their
children. These are just normal people.
How can you just say that these people, if we go near them,
(24:30):
they're going to kill us? Sarah Jack: Yeah.
And are they, is, are they coming from different,
traditional backgrounds and languages?
Yes. The only thing that binds them
is that they're all victims of witch hunts from their own
villages. They have come together, and
they're staying together. Sarah Jack: And that's really
(24:52):
unique in itself, because in, inthe world we generally,
communities stay together who have history together, so for
them to be bound because of thistrauma they've gone through,
that is, there's so much to learn from that.
(25:13):
Yeah. Razina Ahmed: I really, really
wish that in near future I can actually get someone who can
help me or who can help me communicate with them.
Bharvi Shahi (25:24):
So I just wanted to add something like, we always
tend to forget the fact that it's like even if they just
become rebellious or where, where this tag comes, that the,
if you enter to their area, theywill kill you or they will beat
you up. We just forget the fact that
it's not them who started this thing first.
(25:45):
It was because they were treatedlike this, they are forced to
become like that, 'cause every time when someone outside enters
or group of people, they fear that they have just come again
to harass them or just to kill them.
And again, they have to just leave every thing again and just
start a new life. This is something that we all
ignore. They were not born rebellious.
(26:06):
They were not born like that. They have become, like the
people around them have made them.
So yeah, this was something I wanted to tell.
Sarah Jack (26:15):
Thank you. Just thinking about, Razina and
Bharvi, what I wanted to talk about is comparing it to these
outcast camps in Ghana, because that is in the news.
People are familiar. Ghana, in the north, has
collections of women, men, children who have gone through
(26:39):
these witchcraft accusations andbanishments.
Amnesty International has gone in and done research and talked
to them and has a report. NGOs go in and provide
provisions or try to, sometimes there's mental health services,
but there's still like all thesecomplications, because even with
all of the help, the well-intentioned help that goes
(27:04):
in, you still, they're still in the state of vulnerability.
And so I wonder with, your village in India, it's not that
far into acknowledging their existence and supporting them.
Do you think about that too? And if that first contact, a
second contact other than the journalist is so important, but
(27:26):
that whole process of supportingthem and then is there
rehabilitation? But, and I know I'm rambling
here, but I'm thinking, it's so interesting to me because of all
of the different, aspects of what the, the folks in Ghana who
are in these camps, not, they don't wanna leave, but where
they're at isn't safe still. And I'm sure that it's similar.
(27:49):
It would be similar here where you're speaking, they're
together, but are they really safe?
Razina Ahmed (27:56):
Huh? Actually that can be a question
that are they really safe? Because one interesting fact was
that, what I read about this village was that, this village
is nowhere on the map. You can't find it on the map.
You can't find where this village is located.
So actually I had to do a lot ofresearch to actually find out
that, which district does this village belong to?
(28:16):
Is it, where is it? So finally I got to know that
it's on the borderline somewherewith another state, Assam and
another state, and on the borderline is the village.
And I finally found the districtwhich the village belongs to,
and only then I could, go to thepeople and ask them.
Some people were not willing to talk about the village at all.
And like I said, that when I approached the NGO, which
(28:38):
actually works with the victims of witch hunts, they were not
ready to go to the village or they were not ready to accompany
me to going to the village. So, yes, this actually is a
thought to ponder upon that, howare they actually managing,
someone who has been outcasted? They don't have anyone to call
their own, because when we talk about a village, it's a, it's
(28:59):
like a close knit family. They have been living together
since the years, and suddenly one fine day you are branded a
witch. Your entire family is just
outcasted from that entire village.
And then you go on and you meet some strangers who had the same
fate, who had to go through the same trauma, and you bind with
them, and you are staying together.
So I actually, yes, this is a thought that would linger in
(29:22):
your mind that how are they managing?
Is it just that bonding of trauma that is keeping them
together, but also we have to think how are they managing to
keep in touch with the outer world?
How are they managing to get their, maybe basic necessities?
How are they living their life? Are they even getting what they
(29:43):
want? Are their children able to go to
schools to get the education to learn how their families have.
Actually been outcasted. And what was the reason of that
outcast? Because at the end, it's like a
big circle that if we still go on believing that, yes, it's
because of the supernatural thatthis has happened, even their
(30:05):
children will never understand the fact that what actually
happened with them because of which this has become their
fate, that they're living like this.
Sarah Jack (30:14):
How many generations have lived in this outcast camp?
Has it been there a couple decades?
Do you know like how long they've, how long has it been
accumulating? Razina Ahmed: We have only a few
articles being written about this particular village, so
maybe that is the reason that uh, till now we don't have quite
(30:36):
a lot of exposure about this village or people don't know yet
about this village. Bharvi Shahi: Just one thing.
Yeah. Since Razina talked about,
Assam, so since you asked about the generations that have been
facing this problem, so in that case, I would state example of
Rajasthan, so Rajasthan has thisparticular smaller regions over
(30:56):
there. It's a state in India.
So in that particular smaller regions, they do have this
thing. So I'll tell you an incident
that, I have seen because I've been into Rajasthan.
So what happens is like there are these women wearing black,
complete black dress, and they are specifically called for
mourning when someone dies, and they have a specific space to
(31:20):
sit and they're treated like that.
No one goes to touch them, but they have to come and cry.
And I came to know through my, to my relatives that, I mean
they are doing this from generation, like they told me,
four generation, but I feel it's, it goes way more back.
So like they are, and we are into the modern world, but still
(31:41):
this concept goes on. I mean, still people in the, in
those local areas or in those smaller places, if someone dies,
they will call them, telling that they have to come and cry
or something. And it's not a very good thing
for them to call there and cry, they're just not treated very
well. They will be given a space that,
okay, you have to just sit in that particular space only, you
(32:02):
cannot move out of that space. You cannot move in of the space.
And it's it happens because, I asked my, relative that, why
does this happen? So they're like, somehow they
have to make earnings, so they do this thing.
And I was like, okay. There's no answer to this, why
this keep on happening. I mean, still in the very, inner
parts of the different states, whether it's up, Bihar,
(32:25):
Jharkhand, ajasthan, this are some specific ones, which I'm
stating. If you go in the very local
area, you still find these kindsof, stigma and still find all
these kinds of beliefs that goeson.
In that particular group even, you know, there are literally 18
years girls also who, got married and some because of, due
(32:48):
to some reason they become widow, and all of them are widow
actually, no one is young or, unmarried.
All of them had husband and theyjust died due to some reason,
and then they have this particular community.
Yeah, that's all I just wanted to get.
Josh Hutchinson (33:05):
Bharvi, I wanted to know, what gives you
hope for the future? Anything that gives you reason
for optimism? Bharvi Shahi: I just don't know.
I mean, I, being a woman, I feelthat, okay, there has to be
something, something done for them.
Especially when you are a law student, you always get this
thing that, okay, we have to do something for them.
It's okay. I might not be able to do, to an
(33:28):
extent, but at least I can, givemy voice to people.
Understand. Just before this podcast, when I
was discussing with my friends, at least I was able to tell
those 10 people that, okay, there's something like that
exists, and then they will convey to another 10.
So this is how I believe, because, I won't just randomly
shoot arrows in the sky and tellthat, no, I want to do this and
(33:50):
tomorrow only I will be there and I'll be fighting for them
and this. But I know there are small steps
that have to be taken initially,and then it becomes into a large
step. So that's what I feel.
Sarah Jack (34:01):
Thank you so much. Razina, I was wondering what
type of survival strategies are women who, and I know it's not
just women who are being accused, these whole families
are finding themselves isolated and banished, but are there
survival strategies that you're seeing?
Razina Ahmed (34:20):
Survival strategies as in, are we talking
about, from the whole branding, or are we talking about after
being banished from the village?Sarah Jack: Either, but, I was
wondering, is, are there survival strategies so that I am
not the witch. Someone's gonna get named, how
do I stay out of the target? Razina Ahmed: There is no
(34:44):
survival strategy to say that, okay, I should never be branded
a witch, but rather, if you are a single woman, if you are an
elderly woman, or you are a disabled woman who does not have
a man in the family, there are chances that you will be the
next who will be branded a witch.
But what can be seen, from the research that I have done, what
can be seen is that a person from amongst the community can
(35:06):
actually make a lot of difference.
So, in one of the districts of Assam called Goalpara, so there
were a lot of cases of witch hunting.
Then there was this woman who was accused of being a witch.
Her name was Birubala Rabha. So this woman, she was accused
of being a witch and she had a disabled son.
Even her son was accused of having some magical power,
(35:26):
because he was disabled and theywere an easy target and they
were banished from the village. This woman did not lose hope.
She went on and she actually started a crusade against witch
huntings. She started an NGO, which works
for victims of witch hunting. She started awareness programs,
and by dint of that, she just started it as a small movement,
(35:47):
her entire family was banished. She saw what was happening, and
she knew that this was not happening only with her, it was
happening with a lot of other families.
So the crusade that she started went on to actually become a
very big, revolution, and at theend, when I visited Goalpara in
this year, what I can very proudly say is that people are
(36:08):
actually thankful to her that they now understand that
branding someone a witch is not the solution.
When I looked at the data that Ihave collected, Goalpara had the
lowest number of witch-hunt. people had not heard of witch
hunts in the last five years. not a single incident of
branding someone a witch. And actually they, all of them,
(36:30):
they know about this woman. They know that she started the
movement. They told that when she started
this off, no one believed her, or people did not want to talk
to her. But somehow she managed to
gather women who have gone through the same, same thing.
And they have been branded, a witch.
They, she talked to them, she talked to her family, she talked
(36:52):
to the male members or, far off relatives.
That's how she brought the people together.
This woman, I would be very lucky had I got a chance to meet
her, but actually she died last year, but she was given the
largest honorary award in India for, being the biggest crusader
of witch hunts. She was a Rabha woman belonging
(37:13):
to a tribal community, a woman who was branded as a witch, and
she was outcasted from her village.
Similarly, I also had the chanceto talk to one of a police
personnel. So this person, he's an IPS.
He works, he worked for the Indian Police Service and he was
posted in a particular village. So when I was talking to him, he
(37:33):
told me that I was posted in this particular village.
And suddenly one night, someone just came into report that there
has been murders. And when I went, the entire
village was in unity saying thatwe decided that they should be
murdered. They should be killed.
And when I asked them what was the reason that you murdered
them? The reason was as simple as
that, that, all the children in the village, they were getting
(37:56):
affected by, some sort of disease, and they got to know
from their village health man orthe village doctor that, this
family had a witch, and they were protecting the witch.
So they decided that they're going to murder the entire
family so that the village is free of that disease.
So this person, this police personal, he actually started
(38:18):
making the people aware. He started, first of all, he
started making the policemen in that particular village aware
that this is just superstition. This is nothing else.
He started, creating rallies. He started creating awareness
program and he's a very well-known name.
Now, when we talk about witch hunts in Assam.
His name is Kuladhar Saikia whatI see is that, with these two
(38:39):
people, these two examples, whatI see is that from amongst the
community, sometimes we find a ray of hope.
We find a light of hope. People who have not given up,
people who have actually stood against this, and they have
brought the entire community together, taught something good.
Josh Hutchinson (38:56):
That seems to be the key we're seeing around
the world, hearing the same things in Africa, Papua New
Guinea, that people listen to people that they know more than
a stranger coming in and tellingthem how to do things.
(39:17):
You can't, that's not the way tooperate.
It's to help the people you know, help their own community.
Bharvi Shahi (39:28):
Also just one thing.
Razina, that there's this state Bengal in, in India. in general,
I'm telling you, people, irrespective of the fact,
whether they come from a big family, modern, modern family or
middle class family or even fromthe lower family, they have this
general tag, especially the women's, the girls that you
(39:50):
know. if she's a Bengali, it means that she's doing some
black magic. Like don't have food from her.
I, I see people making fun also,especially, the students you
will come across, you know that,okay, so I'm a Bengali, and then
there will be a person telling, oh, you are Bengali, it means,
black magic. This is how they literally,
sometimes it's very hurtful to see that, the person or the girl
(40:13):
gets offended. I have a friend who got offended
that, that doesn't mean just because I come from this
particular state, you can say anything about me.
So they have this general tag, this specifically Bengal, this
particular whole state as in general, has this tag of doing
black magic. Yeah.
Sarah Jack (40:31):
We talked about a lot of intersections today, the
stigma, the banishment, the silence, superstition, and
harmful practices, and I think this was really a great
additional look at how communities have these
deep-seated beliefs in the pricethat the vulnerable are still
(40:58):
paying today. when we look through history, these things
that we're hearing from you, they're very specific to regions
and cultures, but they're also very familiar to other ways we
have seen humanity, hurting itself and its loved ones.
And I appreciate you bringing these aspects to this
(41:18):
conversation with us today. Is there anything else that you
want our listeners to understandabout what we've touched on
today? Razina Ahmed: I just want to say
that, just because, there is a normal belief system that women
are weak and that's why they're possessed by demon, that is not
at all true. Women are as strong as men.
(41:39):
When we talk about emotional, the emotion of women, we are as
strong. It's not like we, are weak and
we are the ones who are going tobe possessed.
Maybe, maybe if we look logically, you will find many
other reasons why something is happening.
And rather than sticking onto something, some supernatural
(41:59):
belief, something which has no logic, something which has no
reasoning, maybe this is the time that we give reason a
chance. Maybe this is the, time that we
give our human logic a chance. Rather than sticking to
supernatural, let's give our human reasoning a chance to
think that what can happen and what cannot happen.
(42:20):
This is entirely impossible thata woman can possess magic cast,
spell upon an entire village, make the entire village children
sick, make everyone sick, and even Lead them to death.
Women are the one who create lives, so women are not the ones
who take lives. Bharvi Shahi: I literally
completely agree with Razina because something that I, in the
(42:43):
beginning of the session I told that, just don't randomly think
everything. You should have a logic behind a
belief or if you are blaming someone, what is the
justification reason that you can give to it?
Okay. Something very important.
Just, just because you know something, because you heard
something. Because there's a story behind
(43:04):
it It doesn't mean that you keepon blaming that community or you
keep on defaming them, basically.
You can't just keep on doing this thing.
So yes, I just agree with her. Josh Hutchinson: Thank you to
Razina Ahmed and Bharvi Shahi for sharing their research and
insights with us today. These conversations matter,
(43:25):
because they reveal the human cost of witch hunt's happening
right now in communities around the world.
If this episode challenged your thinking or
taught you something new, share it with others who care about
human rights and social justice.You can support our work by
visiting our online bookstore, bookshop.org/shop/endwitchhunts,
where you'll find curated resources on witch hunts,
(43:50):
gender-based violence, and the history of accusations.
Every purchase helps us continuebringing you these important
conversations. Josh Hutchinson: Until next
time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep working
toward a world without witch hunts.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts.
(00:02):
I'm Josh Hutchinson. Sarah Jack: And I'm Sarah Jack.
Today, we're exploring a critical issue that affects
vulnerable women across India, witchcraft accusations, and the
cycle of violence they create. Josh Hutchinson: Our guests,
Bharvi Shahi, a final year law student at the School of Legal
Studies, REVA University, currently pursuing her LLM at
(00:26):
Christ University Bengalaru and Razina Ahmed, assistant
professor of law at the School of Law, Presidency University,
Bengalaru, bring expertise from their work in Northeast India's
tribal communities and international human rights law.
Sarah Jack (00:43):
Learn how accusations rooted in beliefs
about supernatural harm intersect with gender
inequality, social isolation, and legal systems that struggle
to protect victims. Josh Hutchinson: This is a
conversation about stigma, silence, and survival.
Welcome to The Thing About Witch Hunts podcast.
(01:05):
Today, we have a special panel speaking to us about stigma,
silence, and survival, women accused of witchcraft in India.
Please introduce yourselves withyour name and a brief intro
about your research and expertise.
Razina Ahmed (01:23):
Hi. I'm, Razina.
I am working as an assistant professor at President's
University Bangalore. I'm also a research scholar, and
since the last four years, I have been working on witch hunts
in the northeastern part of India, in Assam, because in
Assam, we have many tribal communities which are actually
there, and among the tribal communities, like we know that
(01:46):
this whole superstition thing isquite a bit more, if we compare
it to the mainstream people. My research has been mainly
among two tribes, one which is called, the Boros, and the other
one, which is called the Rabhas,which are mainly, you can see
their prominence in the northeastern part of India, and
how the witch hunting goes aboutin these two tribes, and how
(02:09):
women have been mostly the victims of witch hunts when we
talk about these tribes. Bharvi Shahi: I am Bharvi Shahi,
and now I'm pursuing my LLM fromChrist University Benglaru and
I'm specializing in IPR and international trade law, and I
did my undergrad from REVA University.
(02:30):
So the topic what I have for today is like, it's on the
concept of belief, how belief play a very important role when
we talk about witchcraft or witch-hunt, and what is the main
difference between belief and harmful practices, when that
belief turns into a harmful practices.
So this is what I'll be discussing about.
Josh Hutchinson (02:52):
Bharvi, you've emphasized that international
human rights bodies distinguish between belief and harmful
practices. Can you elaborate on how
witchcraft accusations specifically target vulnerable
women, widows, the elderly, those with disabilities, and
what this reveals about underlying power structures in
(03:15):
societies? Bharvi Shahi: Okay, so basically
first I would like to explain how I feel that there is a
difference between belief and harmful practices with respect
to witchcraft. I feel that belief refers to the
acceptance that witchcraft or superstitious beliefs exist in
(03:35):
the current society. When those beliefs involve
certain actions that people think that these belief are
making some kind of a sin in thesociety or to say, like they are
just taking it as a base to killsomeone or harass them.
So that's what I feel, that whenpeople around make that if
(03:56):
someone is having some kind of abelief regarding any thought or
anything, and when they just go against them, just going
harassing, go on harassing them or doing any kind of violation
against them, or even killing them to an extent, I would say
that that's what becomes a harmful practices, because I
feel that as per how much I haveread, and all international laws
(04:19):
always said that you have a freedom of thoughts and
expressions, right? So that's a universal law that
is provided. So if I believe in certain
practices, like in India, I'll tell you my own experience.
So my mom tells me that, you know, whenever you comb your
hair, just don't leave your hairanywhere either.
You just store it off and just go throw it with the ugly
(04:42):
things, whether you burn it off or you just put it in the water
and throw it off. So if I'm doing that thing,
that's completely my personal belief.
No one can blame me that, okay, you are doing something like
this and something wrong happensaround me, then I'm responsible
for it, you know, no one has that right.
So, I feel that just because I have a belief, that doesn't mean
(05:03):
someone can come and say that something wrong around me is
happening because of me, becauseof certain superstitious belief
that I have. So when I was researching about
this belief, when particularly the question about elderly
womens, the widows, I feel when in the society where I stay,
it's basically because of the patriarchal thinking that goes,
(05:23):
because they think that when menare there, the women is
something, and if they are not them, like women can be treated
any way and everyone just need areason to harass them or to
exclude them from the society. So they take witchcraft as one
of the thing that, okay, that widow has touched something and
(05:44):
someone has eaten and now they're feeling ill or
something. I think that they will just hold
off that particular lady, and they'll think that it's because
of you, you did something and that's why everything is
happening. So this is how it goes.
I mean, I feel that way. Sarah Jack: Razina, your
research focuses on Northeast India's tribal populations.
(06:05):
How do traditional belief systems intersect with modern
legal frameworks when addressingwitch hunting, and what unique
challenges do tribal women face in these contexts?
Razina Ahmed (06:16):
When we talk about the tribal women in Northeastern
India, so what we can see are these are the indigenous
population of Northeastern India, so as we know about
indigenous population, this is the population which is actually
cut off from the other communities.
They like to stay within their own communities so they preserve
their culture, they preserve their tradition, they preserve
(06:38):
what is their belief system. Their belief system started with
worshiping nature, with believing the superstitions, or
in believing that there is a supernatural.
With that belief came the beliefin demons and the belief that
women being the weaker sex and being the weaker beings, so they
are an easy prey to demons, which had started as a
(07:01):
superstition and still it goes on.
Because among the tribal communities, what is going on is
when, whenever there is an illness or there is a famine,
there is anything related to that, to which they don't have
an answer, and human beings being inquisitive, we always
look for answer. Why is this happening to the
community? So rather than going to
(07:22):
hospitals, rather than going to people who can give them answers
about what is the reason that this is happening, they actually
look for someone within their community who can give them an
answer. Among the tribals, if I talk
about the two tribes that I'm studying, they have this village
person, or you can say the village doctor, whom they call
(07:43):
cobiras or ojha in Assamese. So this is the person who is the
one who can tell them the reasonwhy things are happening in the
village. If there is a disease that they
do, they have never heard of, they have never seen, supposing
schizophrenia, they don't know what are the symptoms.
They see someone has been attacked or something has
(08:03):
happened. The person is behaving
abnormally. They don't go to a doctor
firsthand. They don't visit.
First of all, when we talk aboutthese tribal people living in a
far off area from the mainland transportation infrastructure,
everything is a hurdle for them.So the first person they believe
in is a person who belongs to their own communities.
They'll go to the ojha. They'll tell them that something
(08:26):
has happened to this person, andthe ojha, who does not have the
requisite qualifications to decipher what is the illness,
what is the reason behind an illness, he will be the one who
will predict that there is a witch in this village who has
cast her magical spells. And the people who are governed
by nature, who still believe in the supernatural, who still
(08:48):
believe in other nature and in demon and in god.
Also, they are very inquisitive and curious that who is the
witch, and the ojha will finallygive them a name that this is
the woman who is the witch, and the villagers, they get
together, either in the panchayat, that is the local
self-government that they have, because everyone in the village,
they believe in it. It's not like we have someone
(09:10):
who goes against the belief system.
The community lives as a united community, so there is no one
who will go against, who will tell them that, okay, no, we
should visit a doctor and we should take a firsthand report
about what the doctor says aboutthe illness.
So, because the ojha said, the ojha is, you know, far more
important than any doctor who's staying mainstream, because no
(09:30):
doctor visits them because of the transportation facility.
There is no proper hospital. There is no proper
transportation for a doctor to visit them and make them aware.
So the ojha tells them they're okay.
There is a witch. The villagers, they get
together, and they decide on howto deal with the witch.
Either they will first find out if the witch is someone who is
(09:51):
single, then maybe they will decide what will be the fate of
that witch, either pelt stones at her, hurl abuses at her, and
finally threw her out of the village or outcast her.
If the witch that has been predicted by the ojha, that
witch has a family, the entire family is banished from that
particular village. So what we see is that belief
(10:12):
system that women are the ones who are weaker, and because
women are weaker, the demons canpossess them.
Earlier, like it started as a fact that demons can possess
both men and women, but this belief somehow changed its
course. And that belief system became
stronger, that a woman is the one who is weaker and so they
(10:34):
are the ones who are mostly possessed.
The man are just the ones who are not actually possessed, but
they belong to the family of thewitch.
So the men also need to be banished, but majorly we can see
the primary targets are women and the entire procedure of
victimizing a woman or the entire procedure of blaming a
(10:54):
woman for all the health crisis that is going on or anything
that is going on in the village,that starts with the prediction
of a person who does not have the qualification to call out
what is the reason behind a health crisis, or what is the
reason behind an anomaly that ishappening in the village.
Josh Hutchinson (11:13):
Thank you so much.
Bharvi, you mentioned witchcraftbeliefs have a global cultural
footprint. How do accusations against women
manifest differently across cultures, yet maintain similar
patterns of targeting the most vulnerable?
Bharvi Shahi (11:32):
So this is something I mentioned, because
when I was just going through and studying through the
materials that I found online, the reliable sources, so I found
that, when I was searching aboutIndia, how India is coping up
with all this witch-hunt and witchcraft process.
So I saw that, I came to an article, it talked about Africa.
(11:54):
So in Africa, like literally there are camps where they try
to protect womens who are exiledbecause of this concept of
witchcraft. Like they're doing some kind of
a witchcraft or they're practicing some kind of these
superstitious beliefs and everything.
So I was just going through thatarticle, and I realized that
even they had the same thing that, again, the same concept of
(12:17):
patriarchal mindset comes in play.
That they think that women, if they are not with a man or they
don't have a family, and you just, they're just some random
person. They just consider them random
person who has these superstitious belief and
everything around them is happening just because of them,
because they are the sinisters, because they are the ones who
(12:39):
just do all these stuffs, where people are getting harmed
because of them. I mean, they don't really think
logically. I feel that the logic just
vanishes away when it comes to beliefs and everything.
We don't support the facts that,okay, if you're telling someone
that this is the person, how areyou even blaming them?
What is the reason for your blame?
(13:00):
Can you just justify it? So I, this is something I felt
very weird also that if you can't justify a blame, how can
you just blame someone? I feel everything has a logic
behind them, behind everything. So this is one thing, and then I
felt like, I mean, if I go on the legal aspect, I will just
(13:21):
talk about the legal aspect. So specifically in India,
because Razina talked about India, so I just thought of
adding this thing. So, India doesn't have a central
law for this. Only the states, like Jharkhand
and Bihar, there are there otherstates in India, so they have
certain laws about it. So recently there was this bill
passed in India, but then again there's this discussion of
(13:44):
implementation. I feel that not only just in
India, but globally, this problem is there that, okay, you
do have laws, you do have the centers, commission, but then
how, to what extent are you ableto implement those laws?
This is the thing and yes, globally, the most common thing
that I have observed is, again, that the same thing, the
(14:07):
patriarchal mindset, which I can't really leave off, because
it keeps on sticking into my mind, okay, this is something
very common, like people, no matter whether it's a developed
country, developing country, or underdeveloped country, all
three have the same concept. It comes to them like in the
same manner. Yeah.
Sarah Jack (14:29):
There seems to be institutional silence.
You mentioned that there are laws, but implementing them is
very difficult. How does that get resolved where
laws can be implemented? Bharvi Shahi: Sure.
See, this is something, yeah, even I have to really go through
(14:52):
it, because I haven't really researched upon it.
But as a law student, I would feel that it's always about
creating awareness. It's always about holding those
people liable who are actually responsible for this, because if
we keep on leaving them, statingthat, okay, this is how it goes
in that particular area, we can't just go there and hit our
(15:14):
head and get involved in these stuffs.
We have seen many people, many officers, when they don't, they
are scared to get into those tribal areas, telling that if we
go and get involved in there, all those kinds of matter, they
will ultimately think that we are also one of them.
I mean, you can't just say that you are there, you have to be
there. You are someone chosen so that
(15:36):
you can implement those laws. So it is the awareness, I feel.
That one of the reason, people are not so aware about it, and
they kind of, irrespective of the fact how much educated we
are, still people have this belief and they don't want to
get involved. So this thing is some, I feel
that it should be not just takenas a secondary matter, rather it
(15:59):
should go into the primary lane.I feel that way.
Yeah. Razina Ahmed: Okay.
I would like to add here, so when we talk about
implementation, right? So implementation can be done
only when I think it aligns withthe belief system because the
problem, when I'm doing my research with the tribal people
here, the problem is they might know of the law, they might be
(16:21):
aware of the law, but if the lawdoes not align with the belief
system that they have, I don't think they're going to accept
that. Because, like I said, that this
is a community which lives within themselves.
They're not really okay to mingle with the other
communities. They're not okay with mingling
with other people. They believe in the people.
They believe in the people who are there with them, so they
(16:42):
don't believe in outsiders. Some law has come, let it come.
That is the attitude that they have.
So I think implementation is notpossible until and unless we
study about what is the belief system and how the
implementation can be actually aligned with the belief system
until and unless it is aligned with the belief system.
Or maybe we can just pray for a miracle that happens, that their
(17:05):
entire mindset gets changed and they somehow understand that
superstition cannot be the logicbehind giving punishment to
someone and you are in no position to punish someone just
because you just think that, okay, that person has got some
supernatural power because of which the person has been
casting spells on the village. What I feel is implementation,
(17:25):
yes. I agree with Bharvi that yeah,
India does not have a central legislation, but if I talk about
Assam, the Northeastern state. In Assam in 2018, actually, your
state legislation was being passed, which was very, very
stringent. And if we talk about the tribal
communities, the communities that I'm working with, so when
we see the people who are involved, it's not like one
(17:47):
person that you can single out that one person and you can
punish that person for what he has done.
It's the entire village which isinvolved.
So it's like something that theyhave to taken a decision in a
united way. Everyone is standing with
everyone when they're taking thedecision, because that is the
belief. That is what they believe in.
They believe that the woman is awitch.
(18:08):
The woman is a witch to the entire village.
It's not one person who is casting the punishment, who is
dictating the punishment. There is one person, obviously
who is predicting that, okay, this person is the witch, but
belief is there for the entire village, for the entire
community. It's not one person, so we can't
single out one person and punishthat person.
It'll be like punishing the entire village.
(18:30):
So what I'm saying is we, till now India has been taking
cognizance of witch hunting onlywhen there has been a murder,
there has been a rape, under theother provisions of the central
legislation. But yeah, the states which have
witch hunting in the rise, they have their own legislations.
The problem with implementation comes because of the belief
system, because no one, you can't single out one person, two
(18:53):
people, or three people, that only three people are
responsible for that entire incident that has happened.
It's the entire village which takes part in this outcasting.
And yeah, just like Bharvi said,it is actually true that people
are really, they dread going to the tribal villages here.
I just like to, tell about one of the incidents that happened
with me. So, in Assam, actually, we have
(19:15):
one particular village, which iscalled Daini Gaon.
So in that village, there are the victims of witch hunts who
stay there. There are nearly about 20 to 25
families which are staying in that village.
These are all people who have been outcasted from the village
because they were, they were named as a witch.
They have been outcasted from the village.
So these people, they stay in that particular village.
(19:36):
They have formed their own community and they stay in the
village. I had read about articles and I
wanted to visit that village. So to visit that village, I
wanted to take someone with me, who can help me to get
acquainted with the villagers. So I approached an NGO, which
works in that particular region.When I went to them and I told
them that I want to visit that village, what they told me
(19:59):
actually surprised me. They told me that, you want to
go, you can go on your own. We are not going with you,
because when you go there, they might just, kill you and they
might just dump you there. So we won't take the risk.
If you want to go, just go aloneand, think about your life
before going there. So that is the belief, that
these are people who already know magic spell.
(20:19):
So this is an NGO, which is working for the betterment, for
the upliftment of the people. And that is the belief system
that they have. They are not going to the
village, they are not talking about the, about the villagers.
So just think about it that. An NGO is not willing to work
with those people who are, who is going to help them?
(20:40):
No one, I don't think anyone would want to mingle with them
because thinking that, okay, these are all people with
magical power. You go near them and they will
just kill you there and dump youthere.
So no one goes to them. No one listens to their ordeal.
What actually happened with them?
Are they the victims? Are they not the victims?
How do we get the answer if we don't visit these people?
(21:01):
And being activists, these are the people who should be taking
the first step. These are the people who should
encourage other people that yes,you should visit them, you
should talk to them. You should know what actually
happened to them. But no, instead of doing that,
they are demotivating other people also, that okay, if you
go there, they're going to kill you.
You're not going to come back alive.
That is the whole situation. So I don't know how, you know,
(21:25):
if there is a law, there is a belief system and the law goes
against their belief system. Law is saying this is wrong.
The entire thing of branding someone a witch, that is wrong.
According to them, there has to be some reason because of which
this is happening and because they're not aware of, or they
don't have any education, they don't want to mingle with other
(21:46):
people, they don't have any ideawhat is going on.
So they tend to stick to whatever belief they have been
believing in since ages, whatever their ancestors have
taught them, whatever their elderly in the village have
taught them. They seem to align to those
beliefs. So I think that until and unless
we have the law or the legal system aligned with the belief
(22:07):
system, and maybe we find out a way that how we can mingle with
their belief system, go to them,talk to them, bring them out in
the open. I don't think implementation to
a larger extent would be possible.
I have a couple of questions about the village and
that scenario that you shared. Did you go?
(22:28):
Did you go? You did not.
Okay. And that's fine.
That I was just curious. And my other question is, so it
sounds like it's a village of outcast families and there's not
much external contact going in, but is the fear that, what I
wanna understand about the risk of violence to visitors, is that
(22:52):
because of them protecting themselves, because of what they
have gone through and they don'ttrust outsiders?
Why is there a fear that they would not accept a visit?
Razina Ahmed (23:04):
No, I don't think they won't accept a visit,
because I told you, like I read some articles, which has been
written by some of the, you know, publishing houses of India
or newspapers of India, where actually the journalists, the
photographer, they went there asa team, they went there.
They have taken interviews of the people.
They're just normal people. I have seen photos of the
(23:24):
villagers. So they're just normal people.
It's not like they they won't accept a visit from outsiders.
I don't think that. So I also tried to contact with
the journalist who actually wentthere, and she told me that yes,
you can visit them, but yeah. They'll take time to open up
because they tend to not believe, because they have been
outcasted. They're their own people, so
they tend to not believe. Maybe if you can take someone
(23:46):
along with you whom they can believe in, that that way maybe
they will open up, they'll talk to you.
Otherwise they might feel uncomfortable talking to you.
That is the reason that I had tovisit an NGO, so that I can take
someone with me, and because of which I could not visit, because
no one was willing to go with me.
So I didn't have anyone to go and If I would have gone alone,
then maybe they would not believe in me or not opened up
(24:09):
to me, not talked about what happened with them.
But the photos that I have seen,which has been shared, which is
also available online, they're just normal people living a
normal life. They're smiling, they're having
their cattle, they have their own families, they have their
children. These are just normal people.
How can you just say that these people, if we go near them,
(24:30):
they're going to kill us? Sarah Jack: Yeah.
And are they, is, are they coming from different,
traditional backgrounds and languages?
Yes. The only thing that binds them
is that they're all victims of witch hunts from their own
villages. They have come together, and
they're staying together. Sarah Jack: And that's really
(24:52):
unique in itself, because in, inthe world we generally,
communities stay together who have history together, so for
them to be bound because of thistrauma they've gone through,
that is, there's so much to learn from that.
(25:13):
Yeah. Razina Ahmed: I really, really
wish that in near future I can actually get someone who can
help me or who can help me communicate with them.
Bharvi Shahi (25:24):
So I just wanted to add something like, we always
tend to forget the fact that it's like even if they just
become rebellious or where, where this tag comes, that the,
if you enter to their area, theywill kill you or they will beat
you up. We just forget the fact that
it's not them who started this thing first.
(25:45):
It was because they were treatedlike this, they are forced to
become like that, 'cause every time when someone outside enters
or group of people, they fear that they have just come again
to harass them or just to kill them.
And again, they have to just leave every thing again and just
start a new life. This is something that we all
ignore. They were not born rebellious.
(26:06):
They were not born like that. They have become, like the
people around them have made them.
So yeah, this was something I wanted to tell.
Sarah Jack (26:15):
Thank you. Just thinking about, Razina and
Bharvi, what I wanted to talk about is comparing it to these
outcast camps in Ghana, because that is in the news.
People are familiar. Ghana, in the north, has
collections of women, men, children who have gone through
(26:39):
these witchcraft accusations andbanishments.
Amnesty International has gone in and done research and talked
to them and has a report. NGOs go in and provide
provisions or try to, sometimes there's mental health services,
but there's still like all thesecomplications, because even with
all of the help, the well-intentioned help that goes
(27:04):
in, you still, they're still in the state of vulnerability.
And so I wonder with, your village in India, it's not that
far into acknowledging their existence and supporting them.
Do you think about that too? And if that first contact, a
second contact other than the journalist is so important, but
(27:26):
that whole process of supportingthem and then is there
rehabilitation? But, and I know I'm rambling
here, but I'm thinking, it's so interesting to me because of all
of the different, aspects of what the, the folks in Ghana who
are in these camps, not, they don't wanna leave, but where
they're at isn't safe still. And I'm sure that it's similar.
(27:49):
It would be similar here where you're speaking, they're
together, but are they really safe?
Razina Ahmed (27:56):
Huh? Actually that can be a question
that are they really safe? Because one interesting fact was
that, what I read about this village was that, this village
is nowhere on the map. You can't find it on the map.
You can't find where this village is located.
So actually I had to do a lot ofresearch to actually find out
that, which district does this village belong to?
(28:16):
Is it, where is it? So finally I got to know that
it's on the borderline somewherewith another state, Assam and
another state, and on the borderline is the village.
And I finally found the districtwhich the village belongs to,
and only then I could, go to thepeople and ask them.
Some people were not willing to talk about the village at all.
And like I said, that when I approached the NGO, which
(28:38):
actually works with the victims of witch hunts, they were not
ready to go to the village or they were not ready to accompany
me to going to the village. So, yes, this actually is a
thought to ponder upon that, howare they actually managing,
someone who has been outcasted? They don't have anyone to call
their own, because when we talk about a village, it's a, it's
(28:59):
like a close knit family. They have been living together
since the years, and suddenly one fine day you are branded a
witch. Your entire family is just
outcasted from that entire village.
And then you go on and you meet some strangers who had the same
fate, who had to go through the same trauma, and you bind with
them, and you are staying together.
So I actually, yes, this is a thought that would linger in
(29:22):
your mind that how are they managing?
Is it just that bonding of trauma that is keeping them
together, but also we have to think how are they managing to
keep in touch with the outer world?
How are they managing to get their, maybe basic necessities?
How are they living their life? Are they even getting what they
(29:43):
want? Are their children able to go to
schools to get the education to learn how their families have.
Actually been outcasted. And what was the reason of that
outcast? Because at the end, it's like a
big circle that if we still go on believing that, yes, it's
because of the supernatural thatthis has happened, even their
(30:05):
children will never understand the fact that what actually
happened with them because of which this has become their
fate, that they're living like this.
Sarah Jack (30:14):
How many generations have lived in this outcast camp?
Has it been there a couple decades?
Do you know like how long they've, how long has it been
accumulating? Razina Ahmed: We have only a few
articles being written about this particular village, so
maybe that is the reason that uh, till now we don't have quite
(30:36):
a lot of exposure about this village or people don't know yet
about this village. Bharvi Shahi: Just one thing.
Yeah. Since Razina talked about,
Assam, so since you asked about the generations that have been
facing this problem, so in that case, I would state example of
Rajasthan, so Rajasthan has thisparticular smaller regions over
(30:56):
there. It's a state in India.
So in that particular smaller regions, they do have this
thing. So I'll tell you an incident
that, I have seen because I've been into Rajasthan.
So what happens is like there are these women wearing black,
complete black dress, and they are specifically called for
mourning when someone dies, and they have a specific space to
(31:20):
sit and they're treated like that.
No one goes to touch them, but they have to come and cry.
And I came to know through my, to my relatives that, I mean
they are doing this from generation, like they told me,
four generation, but I feel it's, it goes way more back.
So like they are, and we are into the modern world, but still
(31:41):
this concept goes on. I mean, still people in the, in
those local areas or in those smaller places, if someone dies,
they will call them, telling that they have to come and cry
or something. And it's not a very good thing
for them to call there and cry, they're just not treated very
well. They will be given a space that,
okay, you have to just sit in that particular space only, you
(32:02):
cannot move out of that space. You cannot move in of the space.
And it's it happens because, I asked my, relative that, why
does this happen? So they're like, somehow they
have to make earnings, so they do this thing.
And I was like, okay. There's no answer to this, why
this keep on happening. I mean, still in the very, inner
parts of the different states, whether it's up, Bihar,
(32:25):
Jharkhand, ajasthan, this are some specific ones, which I'm
stating. If you go in the very local
area, you still find these kindsof, stigma and still find all
these kinds of beliefs that goeson.
In that particular group even, you know, there are literally 18
years girls also who, got married and some because of, due
(32:48):
to some reason they become widow, and all of them are widow
actually, no one is young or, unmarried.
All of them had husband and theyjust died due to some reason,
and then they have this particular community.
Yeah, that's all I just wanted to get.
Josh Hutchinson (33:05):
Bharvi, I wanted to know, what gives you
hope for the future? Anything that gives you reason
for optimism? Bharvi Shahi: I just don't know.
I mean, I, being a woman, I feelthat, okay, there has to be
something, something done for them.
Especially when you are a law student, you always get this
thing that, okay, we have to do something for them.
It's okay. I might not be able to do, to an
(33:28):
extent, but at least I can, givemy voice to people.
Understand. Just before this podcast, when I
was discussing with my friends, at least I was able to tell
those 10 people that, okay, there's something like that
exists, and then they will convey to another 10.
So this is how I believe, because, I won't just randomly
shoot arrows in the sky and tellthat, no, I want to do this and
(33:50):
tomorrow only I will be there and I'll be fighting for them
and this. But I know there are small steps
that have to be taken initially,and then it becomes into a large
step. So that's what I feel.
Sarah Jack (34:01):
Thank you so much. Razina, I was wondering what
type of survival strategies are women who, and I know it's not
just women who are being accused, these whole families
are finding themselves isolated and banished, but are there
survival strategies that you're seeing?
Razina Ahmed (34:20):
Survival strategies as in, are we talking
about, from the whole branding, or are we talking about after
being banished from the village?Sarah Jack: Either, but, I was
wondering, is, are there survival strategies so that I am
not the witch. Someone's gonna get named, how
do I stay out of the target? Razina Ahmed: There is no
(34:44):
survival strategy to say that, okay, I should never be branded
a witch, but rather, if you are a single woman, if you are an
elderly woman, or you are a disabled woman who does not have
a man in the family, there are chances that you will be the
next who will be branded a witch.
But what can be seen, from the research that I have done, what
can be seen is that a person from amongst the community can
(35:06):
actually make a lot of difference.
So, in one of the districts of Assam called Goalpara, so there
were a lot of cases of witch hunting.
Then there was this woman who was accused of being a witch.
Her name was Birubala Rabha. So this woman, she was accused
of being a witch and she had a disabled son.
Even her son was accused of having some magical power,
(35:26):
because he was disabled and theywere an easy target and they
were banished from the village. This woman did not lose hope.
She went on and she actually started a crusade against witch
huntings. She started an NGO, which works
for victims of witch hunting. She started awareness programs,
and by dint of that, she just started it as a small movement,
(35:47):
her entire family was banished. She saw what was happening, and
she knew that this was not happening only with her, it was
happening with a lot of other families.
So the crusade that she started went on to actually become a
very big, revolution, and at theend, when I visited Goalpara in
this year, what I can very proudly say is that people are
(36:08):
actually thankful to her that they now understand that
branding someone a witch is not the solution.
When I looked at the data that Ihave collected, Goalpara had the
lowest number of witch-hunt. people had not heard of witch
hunts in the last five years. not a single incident of
branding someone a witch. And actually they, all of them,
(36:30):
they know about this woman. They know that she started the
movement. They told that when she started
this off, no one believed her, or people did not want to talk
to her. But somehow she managed to
gather women who have gone through the same, same thing.
And they have been branded, a witch.
They, she talked to them, she talked to her family, she talked
(36:52):
to the male members or, far off relatives.
That's how she brought the people together.
This woman, I would be very lucky had I got a chance to meet
her, but actually she died last year, but she was given the
largest honorary award in India for, being the biggest crusader
of witch hunts. She was a Rabha woman belonging
(37:13):
to a tribal community, a woman who was branded as a witch, and
she was outcasted from her village.
Similarly, I also had the chanceto talk to one of a police
personnel. So this person, he's an IPS.
He works, he worked for the Indian Police Service and he was
posted in a particular village. So when I was talking to him, he
(37:33):
told me that I was posted in this particular village.
And suddenly one night, someone just came into report that there
has been murders. And when I went, the entire
village was in unity saying thatwe decided that they should be
murdered. They should be killed.
And when I asked them what was the reason that you murdered
them? The reason was as simple as
that, that, all the children in the village, they were getting
(37:56):
affected by, some sort of disease, and they got to know
from their village health man orthe village doctor that, this
family had a witch, and they were protecting the witch.
So they decided that they're going to murder the entire
family so that the village is free of that disease.
So this person, this police personal, he actually started
(38:18):
making the people aware. He started, first of all, he
started making the policemen in that particular village aware
that this is just superstition. This is nothing else.
He started, creating rallies. He started creating awareness
program and he's a very well-known name.
Now, when we talk about witch hunts in Assam.
His name is Kuladhar Saikia whatI see is that, with these two
(38:39):
people, these two examples, whatI see is that from amongst the
community, sometimes we find a ray of hope.
We find a light of hope. People who have not given up,
people who have actually stood against this, and they have
brought the entire community together, taught something good.
Josh Hutchinson (38:56):
That seems to be the key we're seeing around
the world, hearing the same things in Africa, Papua New
Guinea, that people listen to people that they know more than
a stranger coming in and tellingthem how to do things.
(39:17):
You can't, that's not the way tooperate.
It's to help the people you know, help their own community.
Bharvi Shahi (39:28):
Also just one thing.
Razina, that there's this state Bengal in, in India. in general,
I'm telling you, people, irrespective of the fact,
whether they come from a big family, modern, modern family or
middle class family or even fromthe lower family, they have this
general tag, especially the women's, the girls that you
(39:50):
know. if she's a Bengali, it means that she's doing some
black magic. Like don't have food from her.
I, I see people making fun also,especially, the students you
will come across, you know that,okay, so I'm a Bengali, and then
there will be a person telling, oh, you are Bengali, it means,
black magic. This is how they literally,
sometimes it's very hurtful to see that, the person or the girl
(40:13):
gets offended. I have a friend who got offended
that, that doesn't mean just because I come from this
particular state, you can say anything about me.
So they have this general tag, this specifically Bengal, this
particular whole state as in general, has this tag of doing
black magic. Yeah.
Sarah Jack (40:31):
We talked about a lot of intersections today, the
stigma, the banishment, the silence, superstition, and
harmful practices, and I think this was really a great
additional look at how communities have these
deep-seated beliefs in the pricethat the vulnerable are still
(40:58):
paying today. when we look through history, these things
that we're hearing from you, they're very specific to regions
and cultures, but they're also very familiar to other ways we
have seen humanity, hurting itself and its loved ones.
And I appreciate you bringing these aspects to this
(41:18):
conversation with us today. Is there anything else that you
want our listeners to understandabout what we've touched on
today? Razina Ahmed: I just want to say
that, just because, there is a normal belief system that women
are weak and that's why they're possessed by demon, that is not
at all true. Women are as strong as men.
(41:39):
When we talk about emotional, the emotion of women, we are as
strong. It's not like we, are weak and
we are the ones who are going tobe possessed.
Maybe, maybe if we look logically, you will find many
other reasons why something is happening.
And rather than sticking onto something, some supernatural
(41:59):
belief, something which has no logic, something which has no
reasoning, maybe this is the time that we give reason a
chance. Maybe this is the, time that we
give our human logic a chance. Rather than sticking to
supernatural, let's give our human reasoning a chance to
think that what can happen and what cannot happen.
(42:20):
This is entirely impossible thata woman can possess magic cast,
spell upon an entire village, make the entire village children
sick, make everyone sick, and even Lead them to death.
Women are the one who create lives, so women are not the ones
who take lives. Bharvi Shahi: I literally
completely agree with Razina because something that I, in the
(42:43):
beginning of the session I told that, just don't randomly think
everything. You should have a logic behind a
belief or if you are blaming someone, what is the
justification reason that you can give to it?
Okay. Something very important.
Just, just because you know something, because you heard
something. Because there's a story behind
(43:04):
it It doesn't mean that you keepon blaming that community or you
keep on defaming them, basically.
You can't just keep on doing this thing.
So yes, I just agree with her. Josh Hutchinson: Thank you to
Razina Ahmed and Bharvi Shahi for sharing their research and
insights with us today. These conversations matter,
(43:25):
because they reveal the human cost of witch hunt's happening
right now in communities around the world.
If this episode challenged your thinking or
taught you something new, share it with others who care about
human rights and social justice.You can support our work by
visiting our online bookstore, bookshop.org/shop/endwitchhunts,
where you'll find curated resources on witch hunts,
(43:50):
gender-based violence, and the history of accusations.
Every purchase helps us continuebringing you these important
conversations. Josh Hutchinson: Until next
time, keep listening, keep learning, and keep working
toward a world without witch hunts.
Have a great today and a beautiful tomorrow.
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