November 14, 2024 • 32 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
In this episode, sales and marketing expert Lisa DiCostanzo breaks down the transformation of the retail landscape, especially in the gift and home decor sectors, into a complex, multi-channel experience. Key insights include:
- Omni-Channel Strategy: Retailers are merging online platforms with in-person events like trade shows to create seamless shopping experiences. Vendors can support this by turning their websites into powerful resources that help sales teams become trusted partners for retailers.
- Digital Shift in Customer Service: With traditional customer service evolving digitally, Lisa shares how this change impacts buyer-seller relationships and how companies can successfully blend online and personal interactions.
- Leadership Through Change: Guiding teams through nearly two decades of industry shifts, Lisa emphasizes the importance of leadership in adapting to meet new customer expectations.
- Pandemic-Driven Innovation: COVID-19 spurred independent retailers to adopt new sales approaches, ultimately creating benefits for both retailers and consumers.
Tune in to learn how to stay adaptable and competitive in today’s ever-evolving retail environment.
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello, my name is Lisa DiCostanzo, calling in from
Nashville, career-long salesand marketing guru, and look
forward to speaking with youtoday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Lisa, I am so happy to have you here.
You and I have known each otherfor almost two decades.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Haven't killed each other yet.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We started very young in our careers.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
That's right.
I'm Benno, the host of ThirdGrowth Option Podcast.
We're recording this fromCincinnati, ohio, today and I am
excited to have a conversationwith you, lisa, about the
multi-channel world andspecifically, we're going to be
referencing the consumerproducts world, gift and home
decor products, world gift andhome decor vendors, uh, and
(01:29):
sales agencies and retailersthat are all interacting with
each other.
Yes, in, in different ways.
Right, there's a milliondifferent channels on the retail
side big box, specialty, momand pop.
There's to the trade, designtrade, um, there is home and
garden stores.
There is online, fair Amazon,wayfair, wayfair, unfair, fair,
(01:53):
right, all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Whatever it's called, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And then brands and vendors have their own websites,
and then sales agencies havetheir own websites, and you have
been I.
You have worked uh many yearsfor cr gibson, venerable
stationery uh and gift company.
Um.
You have been working for awall decor sign company, uh,
(02:19):
primitives by kathy and a vp ofsales position, and you're now
with uh, sullivan gift yes,actually just rebranded.
Is it still called Sullivangift?
Just Sullivan's?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, I thought we have different brands under our
umbrella, but it's theSullivan's brands.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Right.
So, lisa, um, yes, talk to me alittle bit about how.
What challenges do you run intowith retailers wanting to buy
different ways?
Right?
Retailers want to buy on theroad from the rep, they want to
(02:58):
buy on fair, they want to buyfrom your website.
They each want it their own way, right?
And how do you meet thecustomer where they are?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It was interesting that you talked about the career
and where I started.
I think one of the things thathas changed over the years is
retailers did not Early in mycareer there was just a few ways
, and now it is so complexbecause they're busy, they have
different options and they wantto take advantage of all of them
(03:28):
.
By definition, the omni-channelshould be that you are
providing the same customerexperience across the platform.
It should not be different.
I feel a little bit that someeven from maybe the vendor
perspective, there could be, andone of the things I try to be
mindful of is not to think thatyou should do something
(03:51):
different based on the platform.
So, for example, you don't wantto do something different on
your company website that youmight do on fair or you might do
at a show.
It's trying to have it beconsistent because the challenge
is that same customer may go toall of those different places.
(04:12):
So if you're not offering thatconsistency, then there might be
looking at your brand andsaying, hey, I just don't feel
I'm getting that same experience.
How do I know I'm getting thesame opportunity financially,
whether it be a promotion,dating, discount, whatever
you're offering over here, whenI'm ordering there versus here.
(04:32):
So I think I see that as one ofthe biggest challenges
maintaining the continuity ofwhat you're offering across the
platforms so that customer feelscomfortable.
Because you have to offer thattoday, you have to be present in
all of those places to be ableto reach not just your existing
customers but new customers,because there are certain
(04:54):
customers that are buying inonly one way or another, just
based on their preference orbusiness model.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Right, so.
And then you have salesagencies, of course, wanting the
opposite sometimes, right, so.
And then you have salesagencies, of course, uh, wanting
the opposite sometimes, right,like they're like, hey, uh, give
my sales.
You know, you're asking, uh, usto represent you with, you know
, 10 sales reps across threeStates, or a couple of hundred
(05:22):
sales reps across 50 States.
You're asking us to go be infront of the customer and
represent you, um, but then theycan just go to fair, they can
just go here, they can just gothere and they can get the same
thing.
So how do you deal with that?
Right, because they they want,yes, we're asking sales agencies
(05:43):
to train sales reps to be thefavorite rep of that retailer.
Right, that's what we're askingthem to do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
We are yes, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
But then are we tying their hands behind their back a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I don't believe so at all.
I think, as a vendor, there's acouple of things that we should
do, and things that we do hereand I did previously is, first
of all, say, a company website.
We train our sales teams how touse the website as a tool to
help grow their business, andthe other aspect of that is
(06:21):
using that website.
We know that there areretailers who want to order and
just they don't have the staffin the store.
That's a challenge that we haveto deal with today is,
retailers struggle to get peopleto work in the store, or could
be.
You know economic conditions.
So if you're a good sales rep,you are using a company's
(06:42):
website to maybe put an order ina cart and email that buyer and
say, hey, you know, I put somesuggestions in there for you.
Take a look tonight when you'reready and when you have time,
and you know what A lot ofwebsites today like here and my
prior company, the sales repcould act on behalf of the
(07:03):
customer and push the orderthrough.
So if you are using a company'swebsite, you are still, I like
to say, influencing the sale orinfluencing the buy, and still
helping that retailer to makethe right choice and maybe it
could be focusing on bestsellersor something they need and the
(07:24):
value add that a salespersonbrings by using that website is
recognizing that the retailerdoes not maybe have the time or
maybe it's in between visits,and using that website, that
company website, as a tool tohelp the customer.
And what retailer would notappreciate that value add in
(07:46):
terms of hey, I'm too busy, canI throw a few things on there?
Would you take a look at it andthen you know when we're done.
Okay, that's great, push theorder through for me.
And then, as it relates to fare, you know there's been a lot of
that over the years andtruthfully, I held off at my
last company for a while butthen decided to join that as an
(08:06):
opportunity.
What I have seen at twodifferent companies at Primus by
Cathy and here at Sullivan's isthe majority of the customers
who are buying on FAIR are newcustomers.
They're not necessarily thesame customers.
That our sales reps are callingon, so that's an advantage for
them.
Additionally, the buying habitsof the retailers on unfair or
(08:28):
different, they're going to buya little bit smaller and closer
to need, so that's also adifferent model.
The other thing I've seen is weat my last again speaking for
myself, and I've talked to anumber of other vendors are
sharing those leads with thesales reps and I've actually
(08:50):
seen in the last couple of weekswhere reps have said hey, I've
connected with one of mycustomers on fair and we're
going to start working together.
And even at Primitive Spacathywe were at the Dallas show and a
customer came in and said hey,I started to order from you on
fair.
I wanted to see everything elsethat you have and, by the way,
do you have a sales rep whocould now call on me?
So it's.
(09:10):
It's one of those again.
If you using it as a way toexpand your business, to accept
and acknowledge that a retailerwants to order in a certain way
and then adjust your salesapproach to say I can still help
you, how can I help you interms of where and how you want
to order, then it becomes againfor the sales rep using that
(09:34):
omni-channel approach to reallydrive and grow their business.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So you're really talking about.
I mean it's interesting because, as you said earlier, 10, 20
years ago there were three waysto buy right you can buy in the
store with a road rep.
You can buy at the showroom inAtlanta or Vegas or High Point
or whatever, or you do a phoneor fax.
(10:00):
Phone or fax yeah, right.
There used to be a thing calledfax, A fax yeah, a fax simile
machine, yes, way back when.
So those were the three ways.
And then all these otherchannels and opportunities came
in and everybody was kind ofthreatened by it, confused by it
, like, oh my God, they'removing my cheese, are they going
(10:23):
to eat my lunch?
But what you're talking aboutis really, you have figured out
how to make all the differentbuying.
I call them digital touchpoints, right?
Yes, there's digital touchpoints and there's analog touch
points, right?
The analog is face-to-face andin the showroom, on the road,
you're making all of those touchpoints work for each other so
(10:46):
that even a rep can utilize thewebsite and even fair can help a
rep, right?
So it's coordinating all ofthose different touch points.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yes, because if you're going to continue to go
down the path of the old threeplaces you're going to get left
behind because that's not wherethe customers are anymore and
there's definitely been.
I mean not even just on fair,but company websites was seen as
also competitive.
And, in all fairness to thesales reps, I think a lot of
vendors for a while felt like,well, if the customer orders on
a website or origination for theorder that the salesperson can
(11:50):
take advantage of, level thatplaying field, that becomes
another tool in the toolbox.
And that's why I feel verystrongly that you cannot just
rely on the road or the show andyou have to help your customer
by saying hey, I know you'resuper busy, why don't we put an
order in?
And my philosophy is, no matterwhat channel or what touch
(12:14):
point, that is, if thesalesperson is involved that
customer will purchase more andalso make better choices,
because they're facilitated bythe sales rep.
So I think that's where we haveto the salespeople and all of us
just have to be able to andaccept all of the different
channels and ways that aretailer can and wants to shop.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And that is absolutely true and I believe
that from the bottom of my heartthat as wonderful as digital
touchpoints and websites anduser experience on these various
websites, as wonderful and asimportant as they are, when
enhanced with human interaction,a salesperson, the interaction
(13:00):
becomes more valuable AbsolutelyFor both sides, right For the
buyer and for the seller, forboth sides right For the buyer
and for the seller and if you'rethe other word I coined, I love
to use, is adding value.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And you know, in looking at different industry
studies and research, thesalesperson is still very, very
important to that buyer.
You're bringing things likeproduct knowledge, trend
information, and it's importantfor vendors to make sure that we
are providing that to our salesteams.
What's trending?
Why are we doing something andbringing that to the salesperson
so that they can bring that totheir buyers?
(13:35):
Because, let's face it, you'renot going to see trend
information on FAIR.
You're not going to see trendinformation on the website.
That is still going to befacilitated through that
partnership with your sales repsand your retailers.
So the more we give theminformation, they help their
buyers make better choices.
And when there's no question.
Whenever you have that salesrep intervention in a buy, the
(13:59):
retailer will make good choicesand I think also helps
facilitate a strong relationshipand a strong partnership
between the salesperson and thebuyer.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So, like, everything we're talking about here is sort
of is more pre-sale thanpost-sale, and what I mean by
that is right.
You're showing the productonline and in the store
face-to-face website.
You're showing the product inorder to make a buying decision.
Once a buying decision has beenmade, an order has been placed.
(14:33):
Right Now, the order is placedin the vendor's order processing
system.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And then in the post-sale world, from order
placed to order shipped right,and that can be a black box.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It could be yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Right when customer service gets involved and the
buyer has to call in hey,where's my order?
Hey, it was supposed to shipyesterday.
Is it shipping?
You know?
Maybe a chip, whether chippedon time or late?
Once it's in the store, therecould be claims issues, there
could be, you know, quality, aquality concern.
(15:14):
I have to return some, you know, return to vendor, whatever,
right, all of that stuff is verymessy it's messy.
Yes, it's gonna happen and Ithink there the game has changed
a lot too with digital right,Because now more and more
vendors are using customerportals where all of the
(15:35):
invoicing, shipping claims,stuff is accessible to the buyer
and the seller and the customerservice person and the sales
rep.
Are you guys or have you hadgood or bad experiences with
(15:56):
digitizing that in a portal?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
No good questions, good points, and where we are,
yes, very positive in terms ofmaking sure that things like
that are accessible both to thesalesperson and to the customer,
where they could see pastorders If they need to download
a copy of an invoice to get UPCsor whatever it is that they
(16:22):
need.
Again, that goes back to ourwebsite and our company's
website.
The Omni channel isn't just tosell, it's also to provide
service the customer experience,and multiple ways.
Because what if it's seveno'clock at night?
They're, you know, in theirstore working late and they need
(16:44):
to get something.
It goes back to what we saidearlier years ago how could you
get that information?
By only calling customerservice, making a phone call?
Now it's, it's accessible andit's on demand, and that's all
part of adding value and alsohaving a positive customer
experience.
(17:05):
The other thing that does iswhen you talk about adding value
for the salesperson, let's saythey walk in, it gives them
great information to go to awebsite.
A customer walks in and goesgosh, I don't remember if what I
ordered last time or I'm notsure I got.
This Sales rep could easilyaccess the same information.
(17:25):
So it goes back to what we'resaying through our entire
conversation is is everythingavailable in all the platforms
and accessible by everyone?
And so the salesperson canaccess that too and say I can
get that for you here.
Let's take a look and then usethat information to help guide
either new purchases, reorders,et cetera.
(17:47):
But it is making thatinformation equally as
accessible as ordering anytime,anywhere that you want to do so.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
So it's funny how you and I again going back over the
last almost 20 years now.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
A few years yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
A few years, almost 20 years now.
A few years, um, no, I have umwatched the industry industry
change, um, and we've had had toand, you know, sometimes wanted
to, and sometimes had to changealong with it.
And you know I I'm spending alot more time, you know, these
days helping companies grow byfiguring out the digital
(18:30):
infrastructure of how digitaland analog touch points and
interactions work with eachother.
How do you coordinate that?
And you know it's never easy,it's usually painful, but the
reward is so high when youcreate a fairly seamless way to
(18:51):
interact buyer to seller, isn'tit?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
It is, and change is always hard, regardless of what
it entails Only wet babies.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
like change.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, because you know that it's always a resistance
to change, which is what led tothe website issue or the fair
topics.
It's also change and it's howyou react to it.
And then the other thing I lookat, you know, as the sales
leader.
How am I then?
I have a responsibility.
(19:22):
We, as sales leaders, have aresponsibility.
How are we going to train,educate on what we're doing, why
we're doing it and also what isthe benefit for them and their
customer?
And if we're just changing andthrowing it out there without
that explanation or education,then we're not doing our jobs as
(19:44):
leaders.
So it's part of any change isstarts with the leadership in
terms of how we're going toframe it and show our teams how
to use it and how it could be abenefit for them, because we're
all on the same team.
Our goals are the same.
It's not just to drive thesales, it's to create long-term
(20:04):
relationships.
Is to create long-termrelationships the days of
walking in and just sellingsomething and leaving and
expecting the customer to begone?
It's about relationships andthis industry in particular is
built on relationships and it'sabout the benefit of the
long-term health of thatrelationship and all of the
things we're talking about,whether it's providing the sales
(20:26):
or the trends or the invoices,whatever that customer needs,
that's what builds that positiverelationship and you have to.
If you're not going to embracethose, it's tough to move
forward.
Think back to just COVID years.
It really was, I feel, likequite a pivotal change for the
independent retailers, who didnot were not used to as much of
(20:48):
the social media selling orcurbside pickup and, frankly,
the independent retailers werein a far better position to
adapt than any sort of a mallenvironment.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Where how?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
could you possibly do curbside pickup and those that
really embraced and adapted,that are still.
That was big change.
And if they didn't have awebsite or didn't know how to do
social media selling, theypicked it up quickly.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
They learned how to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
They had to learn really quickly and you see that
most of them have maintainedthat because they saw the
advantage.
So it actually has permeated notjust from, say, vendor to
retailer, but retailer toconsumer, Because they have also
had to adopt if you will, anomni-channel approach to their
business, whether it be dropship, where vendors offer that
(21:44):
opportunity, or social mediaselling, selling or shipping
whatever it is that they need todo.
They had to adapt to.
So it really kind oftransitioned across the entire
chain in terms of what had tohappen then and that did force.
That was a situation thatreally forced change versus
(22:07):
having to sort of slowly adaptprogress.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
right, we did sort of five years worth of progress in
five months or in five weeks orin five days.
Yes, exactly it sure did.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Now, we just count down how many years ago is that?
But it is nice to see that thesuccessful retailers have
continued with that and I thinkthe other piece of that is
consumers liked that those theyadapted to the change and
embraced their ability to buyhow and where they wanted to.
(22:47):
So it was also something whereI kind of need to maintain this,
because now my customers arelooking for that from me if I'm
a retailer.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
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It's interesting, I thinkyou're absolutely right that, um
(23:47):
, you know the shit of covetright like now, what are we
gonna do?
yeah, I think that forced a lotof positive change it, it did,
and you know, and the other waythat I think you and I are
comfortable, maybe morecomfortable with change than
most or than many, is becauseyou and I both are very I think
(24:14):
we're both quite skilled at, andcomfortable with, and even
passionate about, imagining whatthat future state could look
like and then describing it toeverybody in a way that
everybody goes oh wait, there isthis other world out there.
I can see myself in it, let'sgo there.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Let's go, as opposed to I'm afraid of it, right, yeah
, in it, let's go there asopposed to I'm afraid of it,
right?
Yeah, I think it's thinking ofwhatever that concept is.
I like to say 30,000 feet in theair first and okay, what is
that going to look like?
What is it going to mean?
How do I frame it?
How do I position it?
(24:58):
There's no question that everyone of us in in whether in our
careers or personal lives, anykind of change is, oh gosh, you
know what is that going to meanfor me, and it's scary.
It's also scary.
Can you imagine a retailer whodidn't even have a website or
didn't know how to even do aFacebook live session back then
had to be like, oh my gosh, Ineed to figure this out right
away because this is my way toreach my customers, or even more
(25:21):
customers?
That was probably quite scaryto think.
How do I do this?
But you're right, it wasabsolutely forced change and
that's not necessarily a badthing, and so maybe does that.
Now do we all embrace thatchange quickly and go well, we
need to adapt.
The other thing is, you know,to your point, we talked you and
(25:43):
I talked earlier about what itwas like way back when with the
three models, the evolution ofOmnichannel, or whether it be,
the websites, or it be fair, andeven a lot of our sales rep
(26:05):
agencies or sales reps havewebsites themselves.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Like sophisticated websites.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, everyone has a website.
Everyone's trying to engage,not necessarily just to sell,
but there's also informationalaspect of what you're
communicating.
I feel like it really hasaccelerated.
Change has accelerated over thelast few years more than it had
for those many, many years thatthere was only those few ways
to order.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
You can listen to episode number 100 that I did
with George Chanis I'm hoping Isay his name right.
He is the former attorneygeneral of the state of Nevada.
A futurist wrote a fascinatingbook, the Millennial Samurai,
and he talks about thequickening pace of change.
(27:00):
Yeah, and you've just talkedabout it, sort of COVID, you
know 2020.
I mean the last four years.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Four years yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Change has been much faster than the four years prior
to that.
Right, and I'm telling you, thenext four years it's going to
be faster than the last fouryears, with or without COVID.
It's just because AI andtechnology is speeding up so
quickly, that weird stuff comingdown the pike two months from
(27:30):
now, eight months from now, thatnobody knows anything about yet
and we better be ready for it.
Or you know what?
We cannot get ready for what wedon't know, but we've got to be
ready by being flexible.
By being flexible.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And AI is another that people it's what is it?
How does it work?
It's scary, it's going to takejobs, and not that I'm getting
one.
But I heard the new iPhone hasgot AI built in.
I don't know what that means,but that's another example of
something that is change andscary and what does it mean?
(28:06):
And it feels to me like, and Iknow at some of the conferences,
the industry conferences, we'vehad presentations about that
and again I think it's what doesit bring?
And how could I best usesomething like that to I'd like
to say not to my advantage, buthow would we capitalize on what
that delivers versus, oh my gosh, I don't, you know, I'm scared
(28:30):
of it, I don't want to use it.
It's more.
How could we embrace?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
it Stay curious.
Yeah and use it.
Stay curious, friends.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Right.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
No, I mean.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
It's true.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I mean, look, there's growth mindset and there's
conservative mindset, Notconservative in a political way,
but conservative.
You know.
Conserve, you know, keep it tomyself the fear, you know, make
sure I don't lose anything.
And growth mindset is abundance.
What can I gain, you know.
How can we?
You know how can we grow thisthing and how can we face change
(29:09):
, accept change, go after change.
Right, I mean.
That, I think, is far moregrowth.
Growth mindset and curiosityand flexibility and adaptability
is the key skill that we've gotto have in the next five years.
(29:29):
More than 10 years ago, yeah,change is guaranteed.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's guaranteed Death taxes and change.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Wish we could get rid of the taxes part, but yes.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
But I do think, in circling back to what we do in
our industry is, first of all, Ifeel very strongly, as I said,
we as leaders have aresponsibility to really look at
that change first.
You know whether it waswebsites, AI, whatever.
So how are we going to use that?
(30:03):
And then how do we sort offrame it, pass it along and get
everyone to embrace it?
Because if we don't, thenthat's when you're going to get
left behind and that's alsogoing to lead to that
unwillingness to embrace it,whatever the it change is.
(30:24):
And we've seen that in ourindustry with, like the things
that we've talked about today.
So if you're not going toembrace the change, you end up
getting left behind.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I am going to say this is an excellent closing
comment you just made.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Thank you.
I've so enjoyed this minute.
It's been a great topic and Iappreciate you inviting me on
today.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you, I am excited.
Thank you for coming on.
I always enjoy my conversationswith you.
Well, the 90% that you know weend up agreeing on stuff, you
know there's a 10% where we'rewe're on different camps or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And we do get into some great conversations about
it so that's okay.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
No, it's I.
I love the fact that you, you,you are open, you are are open
to the world and to to out tonew perspectives and, you know,
change and growth and all ofthat.
And, uh, thanks for being onthe podcast today.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Thanks for having me, Ben.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, benno, host ofTGO Podcast, there as well.
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(31:50):
Let's keep growing, you.
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hello, my name is Lisa DiCostanzo, calling in from
Nashville, career-long salesand marketing guru, and look
forward to speaking with youtoday.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Lisa, I am so happy to have you here.
You and I have known each otherfor almost two decades.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Haven't killed each other yet.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
We started very young in our careers.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
That's right.
I'm Benno, the host of ThirdGrowth Option Podcast.
We're recording this fromCincinnati, ohio, today and I am
excited to have a conversationwith you, lisa, about the
multi-channel world andspecifically, we're going to be
referencing the consumerproducts world, gift and home
decor products, world gift andhome decor vendors, uh, and
(01:29):
sales agencies and retailersthat are all interacting with
each other.
Yes, in, in different ways.
Right, there's a milliondifferent channels on the retail
side big box, specialty, momand pop.
There's to the trade, designtrade, um, there is home and
garden stores.
There is online, fair Amazon,wayfair, wayfair, unfair, fair,
(01:53):
right, all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Whatever it's called, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
And then brands and vendors have their own websites,
and then sales agencies havetheir own websites, and you have
been I.
You have worked uh many yearsfor cr gibson, venerable
stationery uh and gift company.
Um.
You have been working for awall decor sign company, uh,
(02:19):
primitives by kathy and a vp ofsales position, and you're now
with uh, sullivan gift yes,actually just rebranded.
Is it still called Sullivangift?
Just Sullivan's?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, I thought we have different brands under our
umbrella, but it's theSullivan's brands.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Right.
So, lisa, um, yes, talk to me alittle bit about how.
What challenges do you run intowith retailers wanting to buy
different ways?
Right?
Retailers want to buy on theroad from the rep, they want to
(02:58):
buy on fair, they want to buyfrom your website.
They each want it their own way, right?
And how do you meet thecustomer where they are?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
It was interesting that you talked about the career
and where I started.
I think one of the things thathas changed over the years is
retailers did not Early in mycareer there was just a few ways
, and now it is so complexbecause they're busy, they have
different options and they wantto take advantage of all of them
(03:28):
.
By definition, the omni-channelshould be that you are
providing the same customerexperience across the platform.
It should not be different.
I feel a little bit that someeven from maybe the vendor
perspective, there could be, andone of the things I try to be
mindful of is not to think thatyou should do something
(03:51):
different based on the platform.
So, for example, you don't wantto do something different on
your company website that youmight do on fair or you might do
at a show.
It's trying to have it beconsistent because the challenge
is that same customer may go toall of those different places.
(04:12):
So if you're not offering thatconsistency, then there might be
looking at your brand andsaying, hey, I just don't feel
I'm getting that same experience.
How do I know I'm getting thesame opportunity financially,
whether it be a promotion,dating, discount, whatever
you're offering over here, whenI'm ordering there versus here.
(04:32):
So I think I see that as one ofthe biggest challenges
maintaining the continuity ofwhat you're offering across the
platforms so that customer feelscomfortable.
Because you have to offer thattoday, you have to be present in
all of those places to be ableto reach not just your existing
customers but new customers,because there are certain
(04:54):
customers that are buying inonly one way or another, just
based on their preference orbusiness model.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Right, so.
And then you have salesagencies, of course, wanting the
opposite sometimes, right, so.
And then you have salesagencies, of course, uh, wanting
the opposite sometimes, right,like they're like, hey, uh, give
my sales.
You know, you're asking, uh, usto represent you with, you know
, 10 sales reps across threeStates, or a couple of hundred
(05:22):
sales reps across 50 States.
You're asking us to go be infront of the customer and
represent you, um, but then theycan just go to fair, they can
just go here, they can just gothere and they can get the same
thing.
So how do you deal with that?
Right, because they they want,yes, we're asking sales agencies
(05:43):
to train sales reps to be thefavorite rep of that retailer.
Right, that's what we're askingthem to do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
We are yes, for sure.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
But then are we tying their hands behind their back a
little bit.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I don't believe so at all.
I think, as a vendor, there's acouple of things that we should
do, and things that we do hereand I did previously is, first
of all, say, a company website.
We train our sales teams how touse the website as a tool to
help grow their business, andthe other aspect of that is
(06:21):
using that website.
We know that there areretailers who want to order and
just they don't have the staffin the store.
That's a challenge that we haveto deal with today is,
retailers struggle to get peopleto work in the store, or could
be.
You know economic conditions.
So if you're a good sales rep,you are using a company's
(06:42):
website to maybe put an order ina cart and email that buyer and
say, hey, you know, I put somesuggestions in there for you.
Take a look tonight when you'reready and when you have time,
and you know what A lot ofwebsites today like here and my
prior company, the sales repcould act on behalf of the
(07:03):
customer and push the orderthrough.
So if you are using a company'swebsite, you are still, I like
to say, influencing the sale orinfluencing the buy, and still
helping that retailer to makethe right choice and maybe it
could be focusing on bestsellersor something they need and the
(07:24):
value add that a salespersonbrings by using that website is
recognizing that the retailerdoes not maybe have the time or
maybe it's in between visits,and using that website, that
company website, as a tool tohelp the customer.
And what retailer would notappreciate that value add in
(07:46):
terms of hey, I'm too busy, canI throw a few things on there?
Would you take a look at it andthen you know when we're done.
Okay, that's great, push theorder through for me.
And then, as it relates to fare, you know there's been a lot of
that over the years andtruthfully, I held off at my
last company for a while butthen decided to join that as an
(08:06):
opportunity.
What I have seen at twodifferent companies at Primus by
Cathy and here at Sullivan's isthe majority of the customers
who are buying on FAIR are newcustomers.
They're not necessarily thesame customers.
That our sales reps are callingon, so that's an advantage for
them.
Additionally, the buying habitsof the retailers on unfair or
(08:28):
different, they're going to buya little bit smaller and closer
to need, so that's also adifferent model.
The other thing I've seen is weat my last again speaking for
myself, and I've talked to anumber of other vendors are
sharing those leads with thesales reps and I've actually
(08:50):
seen in the last couple of weekswhere reps have said hey, I've
connected with one of mycustomers on fair and we're
going to start working together.
And even at Primitive Spacathywe were at the Dallas show and a
customer came in and said hey,I started to order from you on
fair.
I wanted to see everything elsethat you have and, by the way,
do you have a sales rep whocould now call on me?
So it's.
(09:10):
It's one of those again.
If you using it as a way toexpand your business, to accept
and acknowledge that a retailerwants to order in a certain way
and then adjust your salesapproach to say I can still help
you, how can I help you interms of where and how you want
to order, then it becomes againfor the sales rep using that
(09:34):
omni-channel approach to reallydrive and grow their business.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So you're really talking about.
I mean it's interesting because, as you said earlier, 10, 20
years ago there were three waysto buy right you can buy in the
store with a road rep.
You can buy at the showroom inAtlanta or Vegas or High Point
or whatever, or you do a phoneor fax.
(10:00):
Phone or fax yeah, right.
There used to be a thing calledfax, A fax yeah, a fax simile
machine, yes, way back when.
So those were the three ways.
And then all these otherchannels and opportunities came
in and everybody was kind ofthreatened by it, confused by it
, like, oh my God, they'removing my cheese, are they going
(10:23):
to eat my lunch?
But what you're talking aboutis really, you have figured out
how to make all the differentbuying.
I call them digital touchpoints, right?
Yes, there's digital touchpoints and there's analog touch
points, right?
The analog is face-to-face andin the showroom, on the road,
you're making all of those touchpoints work for each other so
(10:46):
that even a rep can utilize thewebsite and even fair can help a
rep, right?
So it's coordinating all ofthose different touch points.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yes, because if you're going to continue to go
down the path of the old threeplaces you're going to get left
behind because that's not wherethe customers are anymore and
there's definitely been.
I mean not even just on fair,but company websites was seen as
also competitive.
And, in all fairness to thesales reps, I think a lot of
vendors for a while felt like,well, if the customer orders on
a website or origination for theorder that the salesperson can
(11:50):
take advantage of, level thatplaying field, that becomes
another tool in the toolbox.
And that's why I feel verystrongly that you cannot just
rely on the road or the show andyou have to help your customer
by saying hey, I know you'resuper busy, why don't we put an
order in?
And my philosophy is, no matterwhat channel or what touch
(12:14):
point, that is, if thesalesperson is involved that
customer will purchase more andalso make better choices,
because they're facilitated bythe sales rep.
So I think that's where we haveto the salespeople and all of us
just have to be able to andaccept all of the different
channels and ways that aretailer can and wants to shop.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
And that is absolutely true and I believe
that from the bottom of my heartthat as wonderful as digital
touchpoints and websites anduser experience on these various
websites, as wonderful and asimportant as they are, when
enhanced with human interaction,a salesperson, the interaction
(13:00):
becomes more valuable AbsolutelyFor both sides, right For the
buyer and for the seller, forboth sides right For the buyer
and for the seller and if you'rethe other word I coined, I love
to use, is adding value.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
And you know, in looking at different industry
studies and research, thesalesperson is still very, very
important to that buyer.
You're bringing things likeproduct knowledge, trend
information, and it's importantfor vendors to make sure that we
are providing that to our salesteams.
What's trending?
Why are we doing something andbringing that to the salesperson
so that they can bring that totheir buyers?
(13:35):
Because, let's face it, you'renot going to see trend
information on FAIR.
You're not going to see trendinformation on the website.
That is still going to befacilitated through that
partnership with your sales repsand your retailers.
So the more we give theminformation, they help their
buyers make better choices.
And when there's no question.
Whenever you have that salesrep intervention in a buy, the
(13:59):
retailer will make good choicesand I think also helps
facilitate a strong relationshipand a strong partnership
between the salesperson and thebuyer.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
So, like, everything we're talking about here is sort
of is more pre-sale thanpost-sale, and what I mean by
that is right.
You're showing the productonline and in the store
face-to-face website.
You're showing the product inorder to make a buying decision.
Once a buying decision has beenmade, an order has been placed.
(14:33):
Right Now, the order is placedin the vendor's order processing
system.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
And then in the post-sale world, from order
placed to order shipped right,and that can be a black box.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
It could be yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Right when customer service gets involved and the
buyer has to call in hey,where's my order?
Hey, it was supposed to shipyesterday.
Is it shipping?
You know?
Maybe a chip, whether chippedon time or late?
Once it's in the store, therecould be claims issues, there
could be, you know, quality, aquality concern.
(15:14):
I have to return some, you know, return to vendor, whatever,
right, all of that stuff is verymessy it's messy.
Yes, it's gonna happen and Ithink there the game has changed
a lot too with digital right,Because now more and more
vendors are using customerportals where all of the
(15:35):
invoicing, shipping claims,stuff is accessible to the buyer
and the seller and the customerservice person and the sales
rep.
Are you guys or have you hadgood or bad experiences with
(15:56):
digitizing that in a portal?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
No good questions, good points, and where we are,
yes, very positive in terms ofmaking sure that things like
that are accessible both to thesalesperson and to the customer,
where they could see pastorders If they need to download
a copy of an invoice to get UPCsor whatever it is that they
(16:22):
need.
Again, that goes back to ourwebsite and our company's
website.
The Omni channel isn't just tosell, it's also to provide
service the customer experience,and multiple ways.
Because what if it's seveno'clock at night?
They're, you know, in theirstore working late and they need
(16:44):
to get something.
It goes back to what we saidearlier years ago how could you
get that information?
By only calling customerservice, making a phone call?
Now it's, it's accessible andit's on demand, and that's all
part of adding value and alsohaving a positive customer
experience.
(17:05):
The other thing that does iswhen you talk about adding value
for the salesperson, let's saythey walk in, it gives them
great information to go to awebsite.
A customer walks in and goesgosh, I don't remember if what I
ordered last time or I'm notsure I got.
This Sales rep could easilyaccess the same information.
(17:25):
So it goes back to what we'resaying through our entire
conversation is is everythingavailable in all the platforms
and accessible by everyone?
And so the salesperson canaccess that too and say I can
get that for you here.
Let's take a look and then usethat information to help guide
either new purchases, reorders,et cetera.
(17:47):
But it is making thatinformation equally as
accessible as ordering anytime,anywhere that you want to do so.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
So it's funny how you and I again going back over the
last almost 20 years now.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
A few years yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
A few years, almost 20 years now.
A few years, um, no, I have umwatched the industry industry
change, um, and we've had had toand, you know, sometimes wanted
to, and sometimes had to changealong with it.
And you know I I'm spending alot more time, you know, these
days helping companies grow byfiguring out the digital
(18:30):
infrastructure of how digitaland analog touch points and
interactions work with eachother.
How do you coordinate that?
And you know it's never easy,it's usually painful, but the
reward is so high when youcreate a fairly seamless way to
(18:51):
interact buyer to seller, isn'tit?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
It is, and change is always hard, regardless of what
it entails Only wet babies.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
like change.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yes, because you know that it's always a resistance
to change, which is what led tothe website issue or the fair
topics.
It's also change and it's howyou react to it.
And then the other thing I lookat, you know, as the sales
leader.
How am I then?
I have a responsibility.
(19:22):
We, as sales leaders, have aresponsibility.
How are we going to train,educate on what we're doing, why
we're doing it and also what isthe benefit for them and their
customer?
And if we're just changing andthrowing it out there without
that explanation or education,then we're not doing our jobs as
(19:44):
leaders.
So it's part of any change isstarts with the leadership in
terms of how we're going toframe it and show our teams how
to use it and how it could be abenefit for them, because we're
all on the same team.
Our goals are the same.
It's not just to drive thesales, it's to create long-term
(20:04):
relationships.
Is to create long-termrelationships the days of
walking in and just sellingsomething and leaving and
expecting the customer to begone?
It's about relationships andthis industry in particular is
built on relationships and it'sabout the benefit of the
long-term health of thatrelationship and all of the
things we're talking about,whether it's providing the sales
(20:26):
or the trends or the invoices,whatever that customer needs,
that's what builds that positiverelationship and you have to.
If you're not going to embracethose, it's tough to move
forward.
Think back to just COVID years.
It really was, I feel, likequite a pivotal change for the
independent retailers, who didnot were not used to as much of
(20:48):
the social media selling orcurbside pickup and, frankly,
the independent retailers werein a far better position to
adapt than any sort of a mallenvironment.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Where how?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
could you possibly do curbside pickup and those that
really embraced and adapted,that are still.
That was big change.
And if they didn't have awebsite or didn't know how to do
social media selling, theypicked it up quickly.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
They learned how to do it.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
They had to learn really quickly and you see that
most of them have maintainedthat because they saw the
advantage.
So it actually has permeated notjust from, say, vendor to
retailer, but retailer toconsumer, Because they have also
had to adopt if you will, anomni-channel approach to their
business, whether it be dropship, where vendors offer that
(21:44):
opportunity, or social mediaselling, selling or shipping
whatever it is that they need todo.
They had to adapt to.
So it really kind oftransitioned across the entire
chain in terms of what had tohappen then and that did force.
That was a situation thatreally forced change versus
(22:07):
having to sort of slowly adaptprogress.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
right, we did sort of five years worth of progress in
five months or in five weeks orin five days.
Yes, exactly it sure did.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Now, we just count down how many years ago is that?
But it is nice to see that thesuccessful retailers have
continued with that and I thinkthe other piece of that is
consumers liked that those theyadapted to the change and
embraced their ability to buyhow and where they wanted to.
(22:47):
So it was also something whereI kind of need to maintain this,
because now my customers arelooking for that from me if I'm
a retailer.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
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It's interesting, I thinkyou're absolutely right that, um
(23:47):
, you know the shit of covetright like now, what are we
gonna do?
yeah, I think that forced a lotof positive change it, it did,
and you know, and the other waythat I think you and I are
comfortable, maybe morecomfortable with change than
most or than many, is becauseyou and I both are very I think
(24:14):
we're both quite skilled at, andcomfortable with, and even
passionate about, imagining whatthat future state could look
like and then describing it toeverybody in a way that
everybody goes oh wait, there isthis other world out there.
I can see myself in it, let'sgo there.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Let's go, as opposed to I'm afraid of it, right, yeah
, in it, let's go there asopposed to I'm afraid of it,
right?
Yeah, I think it's thinking ofwhatever that concept is.
I like to say 30,000 feet in theair first and okay, what is
that going to look like?
What is it going to mean?
How do I frame it?
How do I position it?
(24:58):
There's no question that everyone of us in in whether in our
careers or personal lives, anykind of change is, oh gosh, you
know what is that going to meanfor me, and it's scary.
It's also scary.
Can you imagine a retailer whodidn't even have a website or
didn't know how to even do aFacebook live session back then
had to be like, oh my gosh, Ineed to figure this out right
away because this is my way toreach my customers, or even more
(25:21):
customers?
That was probably quite scaryto think.
How do I do this?
But you're right, it wasabsolutely forced change and
that's not necessarily a badthing, and so maybe does that.
Now do we all embrace thatchange quickly and go well, we
need to adapt.
The other thing is, you know,to your point, we talked you and
(25:43):
I talked earlier about what itwas like way back when with the
three models, the evolution ofOmnichannel, or whether it be,
the websites, or it be fair, andeven a lot of our sales rep
(26:05):
agencies or sales reps havewebsites themselves.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
Like sophisticated websites.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Yeah, everyone has a website.
Everyone's trying to engage,not necessarily just to sell,
but there's also informationalaspect of what you're
communicating.
I feel like it really hasaccelerated.
Change has accelerated over thelast few years more than it had
for those many, many years thatthere was only those few ways
to order.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
You can listen to episode number 100 that I did
with George Chanis I'm hoping Isay his name right.
He is the former attorneygeneral of the state of Nevada.
A futurist wrote a fascinatingbook, the Millennial Samurai,
and he talks about thequickening pace of change.
(27:00):
Yeah, and you've just talkedabout it, sort of COVID, you
know 2020.
I mean the last four years.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Four years yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
Change has been much faster than the four years prior
to that.
Right, and I'm telling you, thenext four years it's going to
be faster than the last fouryears, with or without COVID.
It's just because AI andtechnology is speeding up so
quickly, that weird stuff comingdown the pike two months from
(27:30):
now, eight months from now, thatnobody knows anything about yet
and we better be ready for it.
Or you know what?
We cannot get ready for what wedon't know, but we've got to be
ready by being flexible.
By being flexible.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And AI is another that people it's what is it?
How does it work?
It's scary, it's going to takejobs, and not that I'm getting
one.
But I heard the new iPhone hasgot AI built in.
I don't know what that means,but that's another example of
something that is change andscary and what does it mean?
(28:06):
And it feels to me like, and Iknow at some of the conferences,
the industry conferences, we'vehad presentations about that
and again I think it's what doesit bring?
And how could I best usesomething like that to I'd like
to say not to my advantage, buthow would we capitalize on what
that delivers versus, oh my gosh, I don't, you know, I'm scared
(28:30):
of it, I don't want to use it.
It's more.
How could we embrace?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
it Stay curious.
Yeah and use it.
Stay curious, friends.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Right.
What is that?
Speaker 3 (28:42):
No, I mean.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
It's true.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
I mean, look, there's growth mindset and there's
conservative mindset, Notconservative in a political way,
but conservative.
You know.
Conserve, you know, keep it tomyself the fear, you know, make
sure I don't lose anything.
And growth mindset is abundance.
What can I gain, you know.
How can we?
You know how can we grow thisthing and how can we face change
(29:09):
, accept change, go after change.
Right, I mean.
That, I think, is far moregrowth.
Growth mindset and curiosityand flexibility and adaptability
is the key skill that we've gotto have in the next five years.
(29:29):
More than 10 years ago, yeah,change is guaranteed.
Yep.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
It's guaranteed Death taxes and change.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
Wish we could get rid of the taxes part, but yes.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
But I do think, in circling back to what we do in
our industry is, first of all, Ifeel very strongly, as I said,
we as leaders have aresponsibility to really look at
that change first.
You know whether it waswebsites, AI, whatever.
So how are we going to use that?
(30:03):
And then how do we sort offrame it, pass it along and get
everyone to embrace it?
Because if we don't, thenthat's when you're going to get
left behind and that's alsogoing to lead to that
unwillingness to embrace it,whatever the it change is.
(30:24):
And we've seen that in ourindustry with, like the things
that we've talked about today.
So if you're not going toembrace the change, you end up
getting left behind.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I am going to say this is an excellent closing
comment you just made.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Thank you.
I've so enjoyed this minute.
It's been a great topic and Iappreciate you inviting me on
today.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you, I am excited.
Thank you for coming on.
I always enjoy my conversationswith you.
Well, the 90% that you know weend up agreeing on stuff, you
know there's a 10% where we'rewe're on different camps or
whatever.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And we do get into some great conversations about
it so that's okay.
Speaker 3 (31:04):
No, it's I.
I love the fact that you, you,you are open, you are are open
to the world and to to out tonew perspectives and, you know,
change and growth and all ofthat.
And, uh, thanks for being onthe podcast today.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Thanks for having me, Ben.
I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Bye.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO
podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, benno, host ofTGO Podcast, there as well.
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(31:50):
Let's keep growing, you.
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