October 31, 2024 • 34 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
Greg Shugar’s story is one of bold moves, big lessons, and strategic pivots. From lawyer to entrepreneur, Greg turned his knack for neckties into Tie Bar, an e-commerce success story that topped its market before he sold it. In this episode, Greg shares the real highs and lows of balancing risk and security, diving into his journey from law to launching brands like Bowties of Vermont and even a bedding business, all while helping shape young entrepreneurs through an incubator program at Florida Atlantic University.
We also get into the evolving playbook of business growth and the reality of adapting traditional strategies for the fast-paced world of social media. Greg breaks down key takeaways from his ventures in home bedding and beyond, showing how industry-specific challenges demand a fresh approach. His passion for fostering innovation in students is just as inspiring as his journey in the business world, full of insights on learning from every turn.
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm Greg Sugar.
I'm the owner of Bowties ofVermont and Serial Entrepreneur.
I'm calling from Boca Raton,Florida.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Greg, I am so excited to have you here.
My name is Benno.
I'm the host of Third GrowthOption podcast, recording today
from Mexico City, and I am soexcited about this particular
podcast.
It is actually at the tail endof the Rosh Hashanah holiday,
(01:01):
which is celebrating a new year,repenting, but maybe I think
there's also obviously a themeof change, right, when you're
talking about the new year andyou have a very.
You have taken on, I count, sixdifferent roles in your career
(01:21):
as a lawyer, as a startupentrepreneur of Tybarcom, then
retiring figuring out at 40,retiring at 40, I might add, and
figuring out what's next, thenstarting a second business, then
starting a third business, andalso being an incubator, teacher
, professor, with students.
So that's, I count six.
(01:43):
You know we could argue whetherthat's 10 or four, but it's a
high number.
It's a number of significantlydifferent adventures and roles
in your life, right?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, and there's probably a few more.
I just don't put them all onLinkedIn, right.
But yeah, that's true.
I mean, professionally speaking, I pretty much started out as
an attorney.
I practiced for eight years,hated it, absolutely hated it.
I still, to this day, haveregular nightmares of being an
attorney, and that's not even alie.
It's scary how often.
(02:14):
Yeah, my wife and I started anonline business in 2004, back in
the day, where e-commerce Idon't even think the term
e-commerce existed in 2004.
I'm not sure what we called ite -commerce.
I don't even think the terme-commerce existed in 2004.
I'm not sure what we called it.
And we were one of the firstreally digitally native
direct-to-consumer brands Peoplealways talk about.
Warby Parker was the first in2010.
(02:34):
We were in 2004.
I even remember the foundersbeing interviewed for a lot of
TV segments and they would use alot of familiar language that
we would use because we were inthe press quite a bit early on
and I always used to hear ourwords in their mouths.
Could have been a coincidence?
But anyway.
So I sold that company in 2013.
We were the number one sellingnecktie company in the world, I
(02:57):
think for sure the country whenwe sold it.
I'm not sure where they are now.
I had a five-year non-compete,during which time I started a
new linen company, a beddingcompany, which we ran for eight
years.
I became involved in FloridaAtlantic University.
They were starting up anincubator program called FAU
(03:20):
Tech Runway.
I was one of five people thathelped launch that, Still going
strong today, although I'm notinvolved.
I became also a part-timeadjunct instructor, teaching
entrepreneurship there at FAU toundergraduate business students
.
And then, in 2019, I purchasedthe company that I own now,
Bowties of Vermont, which was aformer competitor of mine.
(03:42):
A much smaller business butperfect for, I think, my stage
of life where I want to stayactive but I just can't kill
myself like I used to, and so itkeeps me busy.
It keeps me in touch, it keepsme like sort of informed in all
the changes that go on ine-commerce, while also not
completely wearing me down.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And not going back to the nightmare of being a lawyer
attorney.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And not going back to the nightmare of being a lawyer
and turning.
Those days will never happenagain.
I really I could seriously usetherapy about it.
I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Ask my wife.
I know a few lawyers.
In fact, I'm married to one.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh, okay, there you go.
Yeah, a lot of us can use somehelp, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So what strikes me about this journey of roles and
businesses and sort ofreinventing yourself along the
way is that you know, some ofthese things were extremely
successful.
I would say Tybarcom extremelysuccessful, multimillion-dollar
(04:46):
revenue I don't know if thatinformation is public or not,
but it is, you said, the biggesttie seller in America online.
So one can imagine so verysuccessful and others not
successful, maybe even a flop,not successful, maybe even a
(05:06):
flop, but the sum.
So the parts, successful,successful, not so successful,
okay, successful, but the sum ofthe parts, I think successful,
right, because I think you'vebuilt sort of each role and each
change was a building block ora stepping stone to the next one
(05:26):
.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, in my mind, when we sold our business when I
was 40, I was fortunate enoughto be in a position where I
could keep going from anentrepreneurial standpoint.
I keep trying new things, butno longer was everything on the
line like it was with the firstcompany.
The first company we started byborrowing.
(05:50):
The only equity we had in ourhome was $50,000.
I had nothing in the bank.
Whether or not we survived as afamily unit even I have three
kids was if Tybar made it.
Then I sold Tybar.
Those things don't existanymore, and so entrepreneurship
and starting businesses andbuying businesses is a little
(06:12):
less of a nail biter right.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's almost like I don't wantto say a game, but it is a
little bit of a game and I lovethe game.
I don't want to say a game, butit is a little bit of a game
and I love the game.
And, just like most games, I'mnot undefeated.
Like most teams in sports andanything else, I'm not
undefeated by any stretch.
(06:33):
Not only did I have a companythat didn't work out, but I've
had many instances of anythingfrom marketing campaigns to
product ideas that are completefailures, and so I think it's
only natural that entrepreneurshave failures, like nobody's
going to be perfect.
But I will say a lot of timespeople always ask me do I sell
(06:56):
Tybar too early?
Do I ever regret it?
And, oddly enough, tybaractually had no mistakes.
It was basically as close toundefeated of a company as it
can be, and that's why I sold it, because I said there's just no
way this lasts.
Eventually we're going to screwsomething up.
But I'm telling you, it was nineyears of accelerated growth and
(07:18):
everything I seemed to tryworked, and I don't necessarily
pat myself on the back for that.
I think a lot of it had to dowith great timing.
In the macro industry ofe-commerce.
It was growing.
There still wasn't a ton ofcompetition from the big guys.
Cost per clicks were low,public PR was sort of easier to
get, it was easier to getnoticed and direct-to-consumer
(07:40):
was still growing.
So there wasn't a ton ofcompetition.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So I take some credit for our success, but I do give
luck plenty of credit as well,sure anyway, and you know, uh,
my, my parents used to alwaystell me, you know, when I was a
teenager, uh, and you know, I'dstart going to parties.
They would always say I know,you have to leave the party when
it's at its best, right, youdon't want to hang around the
(08:04):
party, you know, like, once themusic starts to die down and
people are, you know, a littleshaky, you don't want to be the
last one to leave the party, youwant to be one of the first
ones, and that's I think kind ofwhat you did with Tybarcom,
right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I think we exited like in just the perfect time in
so many different ways we talkabout.
The sexiness ofdirect-to-consumer started to
wane soon after we sold Evenneckwear as an industry started
to wane as we sold and you knowlike it just worked out
perfectly and again I'd love totake credit for that.
But I think some of it was pureluck.
(08:40):
But definitely the fear thatsomething's going to go wrong,
right, and I can tell you innine years there we had
virtually no losses.
But yes, post-sale plenty ofmistakes, plenty of losses, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And actually because the few times that we have
spoken in the last few monthsbefore today's recording, you've
been super transparent and youknow sort of an open book about
the good and the bad right andyou are being right now.
So I don't think I'm puttingyou on the spot here by saying
that I think with the businessthat you started, that home
(09:17):
betting for men business thatyou started like a year after
the exit from Tybar, startedlike a year after the exit from
Thai Bar, I think you said oneof the reasons that was not
successful is because maybe youoverused the last playbook which
I remember happening to me whenI, you know, I was at IKEA and
(09:38):
Pottery Barn.
You know, in my mid-20s tomid-30s and in my job after
Pottery Barn, you know where Iwas very successful and I was,
like you know, right place,right time.
I sort of used that playbookwhen it wasn't applicable for
because it was a different kindof company and it was, you know,
a few years later.
Talk a little bit about you knowthe playbook has to be
(10:01):
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Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure many professions change
drastically over time, but Icould tell you e-commerce is not
one of those professions or oneof those industries.
And in particular, sort of bycoincidence, I exited 2013.
And so we started the nextbusiness.
I started my next business 2015.
(11:08):
In that tiny two-year period,things had changed drastically.
Social media marketing basicallystarted during that time, and
so I had no understanding of it.
Social media consumption hadaccelerated during that time.
That really impacted uh uh,traditional media and their
(11:30):
influence on pr, and so we builttie bar, mostly on pr earned
media, where gq magazine, um,esquire magazine, new York Times
, whomever would write about us,and we would see an instant
return with sales, like justinstant bump in sales, as people
started to consume mediadifferently through social media
(11:52):
and other ways.
A it became a different way.
People started consuming mediain a more diverse way.
So, for example, gq is to belike the one bible of men's
clothing, but in a very shortperiod of time, people were now
getting their fashion advicefrom so many other different
places.
So what happened was gq becamea lot less influential, um, and
(12:16):
so therefore not so persuadable.
So when we get back and I getback into a 2015, 2016,.
You know, I want to startworking on earned media and
basically earned media.
A didn't have the influence thatit had just as recently as 2013
.
And be that they actuallystarted changing their business
model and they got intoaffiliate marketing and you
would have to pay to be in theirarticles and you'd have to give
(12:38):
them a piece of their, of yoursale in order to be mentioned in
the article, and that's if youget mentioned in the article.
So the PR playbook hadcompletely changed.
I also completely screwed up inthinking that betting is the
same as fashion, meaning thatyou needed to have a
spring-summer collection, afall-winter collection, and so
we kept coming out with newdesigns before selling out of
(12:59):
the old ones, which happens alot in apparel.
But given what the highminimums were and the number of
designs we had, we could notsustain this financially from an
inventory standpoint, and so wequickly had accumulated way too
(13:20):
much unsold inventory ofdesigns that weren't working.
What I should have realizedearlier, and which we finally
realized later on, was thatbedding sort of has, like its
core designs that sell reallywell for a fairly long period of
time, and so we started to findwinners, yeah, yeah, and we
found the winners and then wejust restocked those and the
other ones we just sort of likesold at clearance and we're able
(13:42):
to now have a much better model.
Unfortunately, by that timewe're a partnership of three and
the three of us just neverreally saw our company the same
way from a marketing, branding,even design standpoint and so
things that just sort of it wastoo late and in fact when we
closed up shop we were stillprofitable, believe it or not.
(14:03):
We did not run out of money, wejust decided it wasn't for us
anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right out of steam.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, in eight years none of us really had cared
about it.
So that was another blueprintthat was completely misjudged on
my part, thinking that bettingwas the same as neckwear or
men's fashion.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know one of the
elements that people talk about.
You know everybody hates change, right, and you know everybody
wants to grow.
Everybody wants to grow,everybody wants to grow revenues
and go from zero to a gazilliondollars, but nobody wants to
change.
And I think you and I aresimilar in the sense that change
(14:45):
actually energizes me.
Certainly I think it energizesyou.
In what ways does changeenergize you?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I like learning new things, and so I never went to
conferences when I ran Tybar.
Now I try to go to as many ifnot conferences, webinars.
I belong to a great communityof e-commerce owners where
everyone is sharing theirexperiences.
Owners where everyone issharing their experiences.
(15:21):
And so to me, even though I'vebeen in e-commerce 20 years, I
very much can feel like abeginner and it feels like I've
changed professions, even thoughI'm in the same profession,
because so much has changed.
Technology keeps changing,consumer behavior keeps changing
, and so I like that.
I get bored when it's the sameold, same old, so I do like that
.
(15:41):
I started teaching undergraduateentrepreneurship.
That was a great change in mylife.
I love teaching.
I never realized it, but it islike a passion of mine and I
love the recycling of newstudents every semester.
I love starting over.
I do think like by the end ofnew students every semester.
I love starting over.
I do think by the end of thesemester with me, it's like,
(16:01):
okay, we've gotten everythingout of this Greg Sugar guy and
let's move on.
It's sort of like a stand-upcomic going from city to city
telling the same jokes.
The audience laughs in the newcity as if they've never heard
it before, but the comic is toldthe joke 100 times.
I kind of get tired oflistening to myself talk, but
(16:23):
when it's a new audience I'mlike oh you know, wow, maybe I
am funny, maybe I am insightful,uh and so um.
So anyway, I do love that.
But yeah, I mean, I like changein the sense that, like, I just
like learning new things, whichI know sounds so cliche,
because there's actually, ofcourse, some things.
I hate learning new things,which I know sounds so cliche,
because there's actually, ofcourse, some things.
I hate learning new things.
Of my son's in med school.
He talks to me about science.
I have no interest in learningabout science.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So I guess, just to send that out, science Pause.
Yeah, tell me so.
I think it was in the podcastthat you had sent me the
e-commerce fuel.
Is that the e-commercecommunity you were just
referencing a minute ago?
Yes, e-commerce fuel.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
If you are an e-commerce owner and you are not
a member of this community.
By the way, I get no royaltiesfor this.
It is just such a great place.
It's just 1,200 e-commerceowners who are all pretty much
experiencing what you'reexperiencing, and we all
commiserate and try to help eachother build each other up.
No one's there pounding theirchest.
I'm the biggest, the richest,the best.
(17:29):
Everyone comes in with theirhat in their hand and says I
need help and we all try to helpeach other.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It really is amazing.
Love that, love that so yeah.
I wasn't aware of e-commercefuel.
Can people find it?
I'm happy to give them a freeplug here.
Is it just ecommercefuelcom?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I'm assuming yeah, it's ecommercefuelcom and it's a
podcast.
It happens to be a fantasticpodcast as well.
The founder, andrew, is a greatinterviewer, like you, and
really like sort of gets rightto the point, you know, and
talks about some really relevanttopics that he knows the rest
of us are dealing with, and so Ilisten to a lot of it.
(18:06):
It was great being on thepodcast that I listen to the
most.
It was kind of surreal andanyway that's great.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So it was on that podcast that I think you were
talking about your teachingexperience that you just
referenced, and you said thatyou do not.
There's no textbooks and nonote-taking.
What's that about?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, so I have .
No, there is a textbook thatthe school has, but I don't.
I always say, okay, we're goingto do some reading for it.
I end up assigning none.
Um, I, you're not allowed tohave your laptop out, you're not
allowed to have your phone out.
Um, no, note-taking, I do uhslides.
(18:50):
Uh, every week I uh I don'tknow if you know, but the
schools, most schools, have thisplatform called Canvas and you
release all of everything onthere.
You administer grades and soforth, so I post everything on
there.
But we really mostly do groupprojects and so I talk about,
like the topic.
So let's say, marketing, I'lldo a lecture, two lectures, on
(19:11):
marketing.
The whole thing's posted onCanvas so they can always see it
.
And then I ask them to puttogether a marketing campaign
and just to back up a second.
The class is all about groupprojects.
I split them up into groups ofthree or four.
I have them come up with a newbusiness idea.
I do a lecture on how to comeup with new business ideation
(19:33):
and then for the semester I pickwhatever 10 class or business
ideas, group them together andnow they have to build up that
company.
And so I do a lecture on thetopic, then they have to, like I
said, let's say, build amarketing campaign and then they
present it and we just do thatall throughout the semester and
I basically teachentrepreneurship the way I live
(19:57):
it.
I get rid of the stuff I knowis not good for people I have a
good sense of like what I'mdoing wrong and I don't share
that.
But I have moments of doingthings right and that's what I
try to share with the class.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
This reminds me of a quote.
I heard a sculptor of a quote.
I heard a sculptor a sculptorof you know, beautiful, like
stone sculptures of animals wasasked how do you do this?
You know, you start with thisrock, this, you know, like cube,
solid block of rock, and thenyou create this beautiful statue
(20:35):
of a horse or a person orwhatever.
And he says, oh, it's very easy, you just take away everything
that is not horse, that's great.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Maybe not so easy but certainly said in an easy, you
know, in a simple way, in amemorable way.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, I thought the question of like, can you teach
someone how to be anentrepreneur?
Yeah, and I think that you can.
Um, but I do think there's amindset that you have to have.
I don't and I don't agree thatyou're either born with it or
not.
Um, I think some people mightthink, like, the way that I do
business is not traditional.
(21:15):
The way that I think ofbusiness or operate may not be
traditional, but I know it's nottraditional and so I think
there's ways where you couldshare that with people.
And I think some people havethose tendencies and might think
, you know, this doesn't feelright, this doesn't seem right
because it's unorthodox orunprofessional, but it really is
(21:37):
sort of the right way to be anentrepreneur.
So the first day of class I say, okay, everyone throw out some
ideas.
What would you give me acharacteristic of an
entrepreneur?
And when they end up coming upwith like 40 words, right, and
the one I always get isorganized, and I always say you
know what that's actuallydoesn't belong on the list.
If you are organized, you arenot an entrepreneur, that's
(21:58):
right, and so anyway.
So I feel like people, you knowthey might say they might be
unorganized people, but theyfeel compelled to be organized
and so, anyway, I don't knowwhere I was going with that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
But you know it's interesting what you say.
But organized and entrepreneurare sort of what you say.
But uh, organized andentrepreneur are sort of
opposite, but but also need eachother, right I?
I always sort of differentiatebetween, you know, the
bureaucrats and the cowboys,right, the cowboy culture,
cowboy entrepreneurs, which ismore the american, just go west
(22:31):
young man, right, yeah, um, andorganized is more bureaucratic.
You know, I was born and raisedin Germany.
It's the get the trains runningon time kind of mentality which
is really annoying.
I mean, those two kinds of theykind of clash, right,
(23:02):
no-transcript.
You know, certainly day one ofa startup versus, you know, $100
million company, you knowwhether that's five or 55 years
later.
You know it becomes lessentrepreneurial and more
organized, right, yeah, and sortof has to be right has to be of
(23:27):
course.
And you know, when we work withcompanies and try to get them
from you know $20 to $50 million, they're like oh, benno, you're
so organized.
Well, yeah, I actually hatebeing organized, but you kind of
have to be right for somethings.
The way you were describingyour teaching gig and your class
(23:52):
and inspiring students aboutentrepreneurialism and how to
start a business, it sounds likeyou get energized by energizing
others, energizing students.
How is energizing studentsdifferent from energizing
employees or coworkers in yourstartup?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Wow, that's a great question.
I mean, I think that okay.
So when you have a classroom,inevitably you have students who
just don't want to be there.
So let's keep those people outof this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I do think students by and large— they left 30% of
the bell curve?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yes, right, they really don't.
You know, they just want to getthrough class.
But there's a lot of studentswho want to learn this stuff and
I think the methodology inwhich I teach is eye-opening to
them.
It's constant engagement.
First day of class I say if youdon't like to talk in class, if
(24:53):
you're shy, go to drop an adand get out of the class and go
find something else, because 20%of the grade is based on your
participation.
So if you don't want toparticipate, it's fine, but you
should get out of this classimmediately.
I like to have kids participateand I think it helps them.
It's like you know, when you'rein a business meeting and
everyone's throwing out ideasand spitballing and all that
stuff, eventually you come upwith something.
I think students get a lot moreout of class.
The more that they participate,the more that they're talking.
(25:15):
They'll ask a question.
I rarely just answer them, Itake them through.
Let's think why would youadvertise something on social
media versus Google?
One is push marketing, one ispull marketing.
What's the type of product thatdoes better in search as
opposed to push on social media?
And we go through the process.
(25:36):
We take their business idea andyou know.
So we were talking about thisproduct, that's.
It's this little, it's likethis.
You know this big and it's likea fire pit that you kind of
hold and it really keeps youwarm.
And I was saying, you know,like someone said, should I do
that on my um, do I do that onGoogle or do it on Facebook?
I said, well, let's go through.
(26:02):
Someone types on Google.
They want a fire pit right.
What are they thinking?
What's going through theirbrain?
Well, they're thinking of, likea fire pit right, a big fire
pit in the back.
Nobody's even thinking of ahandheld fire pit.
It's not really a thing.
So of course it has to be onsocial media.
You have to be able to show itthrough photos or, more
importantly, probably throughvideo, exactly what this product
is.
You need to give a customer amoment to say what the hell is
(26:23):
that?
I never thought I needed itbefore, but now that I see it I
need it.
That doesn't work.
Whereas if someone has a blacktie event coming up and they
need a black tie and cummerbund,it's perfect for search
marketing.
You go right into Google, youtype in bow tie and cummerbund,
boom, you know the Facebook ads.
What are the odds that the?
(26:43):
And if you're shopping throughyour browser for bow tie and
cover?
But I can assure you it's goingto start showing up in your
Facebook feed.
But but truly, that's wheresearch search market engine
advertising belongs.
So, anyway, I like to to gothrough that analysis with
(27:04):
students, and when we do thattogether, that's when those
moments of like wow, I love this, I love the analysis that goes
with this.
Had I just said Facebook'sbetter next question, I don't
think they would have enjoyed itas much.
And I have them participatewith me in going through the
analysis.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Do you do that with employees and team members that
are on your payroll as well?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I would say, I'm a notoriously right.
Yeah, I'm a notoriously terriblemanager.
I'm so bad.
It's not that I don'tappreciate and I don't want to
teach, I just like I don't know.
I feel like people don't wantto be lectured to.
I hated being an employee andso I never want to be that kind
(27:50):
of boss, and so what I end updoing is I end up being almost
no kind of boss.
And listen, I run my companyremotely too, and so a lot of my
emails I mean a lot of mymanaging has to go through email
.
You can imagine themisunderstandings that can
happen that way.
I try not to bother them.
I try not to micromanage them.
I try to empower them.
(28:11):
You know, like everyone saysthe best leaders in power, blah,
blah I'm sure I'm doing ashitty job of it I try.
I'm not.
I can't be good at.
There's only some things Icould be good at.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I'm not good at that you know what, uh, you were
talking earlier about?
Uh, our entrepreneurs.
You know born or raised, or youknow born or raised, or you
know born or taught to beentrepreneurs.
That people say that aboutleaders, right, you're either a
born leader or you're not.
I happen to believe that Idon't think of myself as a born
(28:44):
leader.
It's something that I havethought, you know, think about a
lot, have thought aboutthroughout my adult life like
how can I help get othersexcited and get shit done at the
same time?
Right, because it's not justabout, like in a classroom, it's
sort of about get them excitedand get a conversation going.
(29:06):
There's no P&L at the end of it.
There's a grade, but no P&L.
You didn't, you know you or thestudent did not put up 50,
$50,000 of their home equity toattend or make the class.
You know they'll either get agood grade or not, but I think
leadership is um, a tie bar.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
We had one person, one employee, leave us in nine
years and it's because she movedfrom out of state.
Um, and I wasn't a greatmanager, but we were successful
and I worked my ass off and Ithink they saw it and they were
they.
They they wanted to be part ofthat yeah, they wanted to be
part of it and so, with bow tiesof vermont, which was kind of a
turnaround company, that's mycurrent company.
Yeah, there was, you know,covid hit soon after I bought it
(29:55):
and we started selling masks.
We were one of the earlycompanies that started selling
masks and we went from being a$3 million company to selling
$20 million over a period of twoyears almost overnight, right
over a period of two yearsalmost overnight, right.
So we went imagine the chaos of3 million to 20 million,
(30:18):
especially, by the way, when youknow that it's temporary
because the COVID's going to end, right, and so a lot of the
employees, like I, didn't managein the way that you might get
taught in school or you mightread from someone giving advice
on LinkedIn that you didn't askfor, but so I couldn't.
I didn't necessarily do that,but I you know, our company was
(30:38):
in danger of going out ofbusiness at first.
Remember those first few momentsof COVID everyone was sort of
falling apart and I had tofurlough everybody.
At first I had 23 employeesthat are furloughed, but not
only that, obviously, bring themback, but we almost doubled in
size very quickly, and so theywatched all that happen and they
saw how busy we got and theysaw why we were getting busy.
(31:00):
It wasn't like you sell masks,you make money.
There was a lot of intentionaldesigning, marketing, email
communication, branding, a lotof that stuff went on on and
they watched me do it and I wasstill new.
I was less than a year new tothe company and I think they
watched me in action sort ofbecome an entrepreneur, because
when you were selling masks itwas like a.
(31:21):
It was finally one of theseraces where everyone starts at
the starting line at the sametime, because before COVID,
nobody sold a mask Right, and soall of a sudden, all these
businesses and entrepreneurs arelining up to start selling
masks and we I don't know thatwe won the race, but we
definitely did very well in therace and I think they watched it
happen and they were inspiredby that.
Nobody left me and people stuckaround and I, of course,
(31:44):
rewarded them for stickingaround, anyway.
So, like again for leadership,like I suck at being a manager,
but I do believe thatperformance and focus and things
like that can really inspireyour employees to do well,
rather than just always pattingthem on the back because they
did something well or givingthem autonomy.
All those things matter, but Ithink it sometimes can be more.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I'm with you, I'm going to leave it.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation and I love the way
in which you just you know,freely and openly share sort of
the good, the bad and the ugly.
Here's stuff I know.
Here's stuff that's workedreally well for me.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
here's stuff eh, not so much.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
If folks wanted to get in touch with you.
I don't know if they can findyou on LinkedIn, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, linkedin I like to use as like a Rolodex, and a
little bit of a um, I like to Idon't know what you'd call it,
but anyway, um, no, I I useLinkedIn.
Uh, I, you know I don't want tobe sold anything.
I already have enough of thatin my inbox, but I love
connecting with people for trueconnections, not to be sold
anything, um, and then we canstart there and, depending what
(32:49):
the conversation is, we canalways move it offline, that
sort of thing.
But it's an easy way to followme.
And then our, my company is bowties, spelled b-e-a-u, so
b-e-a-u ties, t-i-e-s, l-t-dcomyeah, so like limited yeah,
perfect, that's our website,thank you thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
thank you for hopping on this episode and sharing
your pearls of wisdom and otherand just wisdom.
This was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much, greg Allright, take care All right.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of TGO Podcast.
(33:31):
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO Podcast, there as well.
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
Let's keep growing.
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast,
where we talk about all thingsgrowth, yes, even and especially
those hard parts where you shedsome skin and pick yourself up
by the bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth Sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I'm Greg Sugar.
I'm the owner of Bowties ofVermont and Serial Entrepreneur.
I'm calling from Boca Raton,Florida.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Greg, I am so excited to have you here.
My name is Benno.
I'm the host of Third GrowthOption podcast, recording today
from Mexico City, and I am soexcited about this particular
podcast.
It is actually at the tail endof the Rosh Hashanah holiday,
(01:01):
which is celebrating a new year,repenting, but maybe I think
there's also obviously a themeof change, right, when you're
talking about the new year andyou have a very.
You have taken on, I count, sixdifferent roles in your career
(01:21):
as a lawyer, as a startupentrepreneur of Tybarcom, then
retiring figuring out at 40,retiring at 40, I might add, and
figuring out what's next, thenstarting a second business, then
starting a third business, andalso being an incubator, teacher
, professor, with students.
So that's, I count six.
(01:43):
You know we could argue whetherthat's 10 or four, but it's a
high number.
It's a number of significantlydifferent adventures and roles
in your life, right?
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, and there's probably a few more.
I just don't put them all onLinkedIn, right.
But yeah, that's true.
I mean, professionally speaking, I pretty much started out as
an attorney.
I practiced for eight years,hated it, absolutely hated it.
I still, to this day, haveregular nightmares of being an
attorney, and that's not even alie.
It's scary how often.
(02:14):
Yeah, my wife and I started anonline business in 2004, back in
the day, where e-commerce Idon't even think the term
e-commerce existed in 2004.
I'm not sure what we called ite -commerce.
I don't even think the terme-commerce existed in 2004.
I'm not sure what we called it.
And we were one of the firstreally digitally native
direct-to-consumer brands Peoplealways talk about.
Warby Parker was the first in2010.
(02:34):
We were in 2004.
I even remember the foundersbeing interviewed for a lot of
TV segments and they would use alot of familiar language that
we would use because we were inthe press quite a bit early on
and I always used to hear ourwords in their mouths.
Could have been a coincidence?
But anyway.
So I sold that company in 2013.
We were the number one sellingnecktie company in the world, I
(02:57):
think for sure the country whenwe sold it.
I'm not sure where they are now.
I had a five-year non-compete,during which time I started a
new linen company, a beddingcompany, which we ran for eight
years.
I became involved in FloridaAtlantic University.
They were starting up anincubator program called FAU
(03:20):
Tech Runway.
I was one of five people thathelped launch that, Still going
strong today, although I'm notinvolved.
I became also a part-timeadjunct instructor, teaching
entrepreneurship there at FAU toundergraduate business students
.
And then, in 2019, I purchasedthe company that I own now,
Bowties of Vermont, which was aformer competitor of mine.
(03:42):
A much smaller business butperfect for, I think, my stage
of life where I want to stayactive but I just can't kill
myself like I used to, and so itkeeps me busy.
It keeps me in touch, it keepsme like sort of informed in all
the changes that go on ine-commerce, while also not
completely wearing me down.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And not going back to the nightmare of being a lawyer
attorney.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And not going back to the nightmare of being a lawyer
and turning.
Those days will never happenagain.
I really I could seriously usetherapy about it.
I'm not even kidding.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Ask my wife.
I know a few lawyers.
In fact, I'm married to one.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Oh, okay, there you go.
Yeah, a lot of us can use somehelp, but anyway, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
So what strikes me about this journey of roles and
businesses and sort ofreinventing yourself along the
way is that you know, some ofthese things were extremely
successful.
I would say Tybarcom extremelysuccessful, multimillion-dollar
(04:46):
revenue I don't know if thatinformation is public or not,
but it is, you said, the biggesttie seller in America online.
So one can imagine so verysuccessful and others not
successful, maybe even a flop,not successful, maybe even a
(05:06):
flop, but the sum.
So the parts, successful,successful, not so successful,
okay, successful, but the sum ofthe parts, I think successful,
right, because I think you'vebuilt sort of each role and each
change was a building block ora stepping stone to the next one
(05:26):
.
Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Well, in my mind, when we sold our business when I
was 40, I was fortunate enoughto be in a position where I
could keep going from anentrepreneurial standpoint.
I keep trying new things, butno longer was everything on the
line like it was with the firstcompany.
The first company we started byborrowing.
(05:50):
The only equity we had in ourhome was $50,000.
I had nothing in the bank.
Whether or not we survived as afamily unit even I have three
kids was if Tybar made it.
Then I sold Tybar.
Those things don't existanymore, and so entrepreneurship
and starting businesses andbuying businesses is a little
(06:12):
less of a nail biter right.
Yeah, absolutely.
It's almost like I don't wantto say a game, but it is a
little bit of a game and I lovethe game.
I don't want to say a game, butit is a little bit of a game
and I love the game.
And, just like most games, I'mnot undefeated.
Like most teams in sports andanything else, I'm not
undefeated by any stretch.
(06:33):
Not only did I have a companythat didn't work out, but I've
had many instances of anythingfrom marketing campaigns to
product ideas that are completefailures, and so I think it's
only natural that entrepreneurshave failures, like nobody's
going to be perfect.
But I will say a lot of timespeople always ask me do I sell
(06:56):
Tybar too early?
Do I ever regret it?
And, oddly enough, tybaractually had no mistakes.
It was basically as close toundefeated of a company as it
can be, and that's why I sold it, because I said there's just no
way this lasts.
Eventually we're going to screwsomething up.
But I'm telling you, it was nineyears of accelerated growth and
(07:18):
everything I seemed to tryworked, and I don't necessarily
pat myself on the back for that.
I think a lot of it had to dowith great timing.
In the macro industry ofe-commerce.
It was growing.
There still wasn't a ton ofcompetition from the big guys.
Cost per clicks were low,public PR was sort of easier to
get, it was easier to getnoticed and direct-to-consumer
(07:40):
was still growing.
So there wasn't a ton ofcompetition.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So I take some credit for our success, but I do give
luck plenty of credit as well,sure anyway, and you know, uh,
my, my parents used to alwaystell me, you know, when I was a
teenager, uh, and you know, I'dstart going to parties.
They would always say I know,you have to leave the party when
it's at its best, right, youdon't want to hang around the
(08:04):
party, you know, like, once themusic starts to die down and
people are, you know, a littleshaky, you don't want to be the
last one to leave the party, youwant to be one of the first
ones, and that's I think kind ofwhat you did with Tybarcom,
right, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
I think we exited like in just the perfect time in
so many different ways we talkabout.
The sexiness ofdirect-to-consumer started to
wane soon after we sold Evenneckwear as an industry started
to wane as we sold and you knowlike it just worked out
perfectly and again I'd love totake credit for that.
But I think some of it was pureluck.
(08:40):
But definitely the fear thatsomething's going to go wrong,
right, and I can tell you innine years there we had
virtually no losses.
But yes, post-sale plenty ofmistakes, plenty of losses, and
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
And actually because the few times that we have
spoken in the last few monthsbefore today's recording, you've
been super transparent and youknow sort of an open book about
the good and the bad right andyou are being right now.
So I don't think I'm puttingyou on the spot here by saying
that I think with the businessthat you started, that home
(09:17):
betting for men business thatyou started like a year after
the exit from Tybar, startedlike a year after the exit from
Thai Bar, I think you said oneof the reasons that was not
successful is because maybe youoverused the last playbook which
I remember happening to me whenI, you know, I was at IKEA and
(09:38):
Pottery Barn.
You know, in my mid-20s tomid-30s and in my job after
Pottery Barn, you know where Iwas very successful and I was,
like you know, right place,right time.
I sort of used that playbookwhen it wasn't applicable for
because it was a different kindof company and it was, you know,
a few years later.
Talk a little bit about you knowthe playbook has to be
(10:01):
reinvented as well.
Right, are you ready to learnhow to evaluate like a Sherpa so
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(10:22):
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Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure many professions change
drastically over time, but Icould tell you e-commerce is not
one of those professions or oneof those industries.
And in particular, sort of bycoincidence, I exited 2013.
And so we started the nextbusiness.
I started my next business 2015.
(11:08):
In that tiny two-year period,things had changed drastically.
Social media marketing basicallystarted during that time, and
so I had no understanding of it.
Social media consumption hadaccelerated during that time.
That really impacted uh uh,traditional media and their
(11:30):
influence on pr, and so we builttie bar, mostly on pr earned
media, where gq magazine, um,esquire magazine, new York Times
, whomever would write about us,and we would see an instant
return with sales, like justinstant bump in sales, as people
started to consume mediadifferently through social media
(11:52):
and other ways.
A it became a different way.
People started consuming mediain a more diverse way.
So, for example, gq is to belike the one bible of men's
clothing, but in a very shortperiod of time, people were now
getting their fashion advicefrom so many other different
places.
So what happened was gq becamea lot less influential, um, and
(12:16):
so therefore not so persuadable.
So when we get back and I getback into a 2015, 2016,.
You know, I want to startworking on earned media and
basically earned media.
A didn't have the influence thatit had just as recently as 2013
.
And be that they actuallystarted changing their business
model and they got intoaffiliate marketing and you
would have to pay to be in theirarticles and you'd have to give
(12:38):
them a piece of their, of yoursale in order to be mentioned in
the article, and that's if youget mentioned in the article.
So the PR playbook hadcompletely changed.
I also completely screwed up inthinking that betting is the
same as fashion, meaning thatyou needed to have a
spring-summer collection, afall-winter collection, and so
we kept coming out with newdesigns before selling out of
(12:59):
the old ones, which happens alot in apparel.
But given what the highminimums were and the number of
designs we had, we could notsustain this financially from an
inventory standpoint, and so wequickly had accumulated way too
(13:20):
much unsold inventory ofdesigns that weren't working.
What I should have realizedearlier, and which we finally
realized later on, was thatbedding sort of has, like its
core designs that sell reallywell for a fairly long period of
time, and so we started to findwinners, yeah, yeah, and we
found the winners and then wejust restocked those and the
other ones we just sort of likesold at clearance and we're able
(13:42):
to now have a much better model.
Unfortunately, by that timewe're a partnership of three and
the three of us just neverreally saw our company the same
way from a marketing, branding,even design standpoint and so
things that just sort of it wastoo late and in fact when we
closed up shop we were stillprofitable, believe it or not.
(14:03):
We did not run out of money, wejust decided it wasn't for us
anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Right out of steam.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah, in eight years none of us really had cared
about it.
So that was another blueprintthat was completely misjudged on
my part, thinking that bettingwas the same as neckwear or
men's fashion.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know one of the
elements that people talk about.
You know everybody hates change, right, and you know everybody
wants to grow.
Everybody wants to grow,everybody wants to grow revenues
and go from zero to a gazilliondollars, but nobody wants to
change.
And I think you and I aresimilar in the sense that change
(14:45):
actually energizes me.
Certainly I think it energizesyou.
In what ways does changeenergize you?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I like learning new things, and so I never went to
conferences when I ran Tybar.
Now I try to go to as many ifnot conferences, webinars.
I belong to a great communityof e-commerce owners where
everyone is sharing theirexperiences.
Owners where everyone issharing their experiences.
(15:21):
And so to me, even though I'vebeen in e-commerce 20 years, I
very much can feel like abeginner and it feels like I've
changed professions, even thoughI'm in the same profession,
because so much has changed.
Technology keeps changing,consumer behavior keeps changing
, and so I like that.
I get bored when it's the sameold, same old, so I do like that
.
(15:41):
I started teaching undergraduateentrepreneurship.
That was a great change in mylife.
I love teaching.
I never realized it, but it islike a passion of mine and I
love the recycling of newstudents every semester.
I love starting over.
I do think like by the end ofnew students every semester.
I love starting over.
I do think by the end of thesemester with me, it's like,
(16:01):
okay, we've gotten everythingout of this Greg Sugar guy and
let's move on.
It's sort of like a stand-upcomic going from city to city
telling the same jokes.
The audience laughs in the newcity as if they've never heard
it before, but the comic is toldthe joke 100 times.
I kind of get tired oflistening to myself talk, but
(16:23):
when it's a new audience I'mlike oh you know, wow, maybe I
am funny, maybe I am insightful,uh and so um.
So anyway, I do love that.
But yeah, I mean, I like changein the sense that, like, I just
like learning new things, whichI know sounds so cliche,
because there's actually, ofcourse, some things.
I hate learning new things,which I know sounds so cliche,
because there's actually, ofcourse, some things.
I hate learning new things.
Of my son's in med school.
He talks to me about science.
I have no interest in learningabout science.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
So I guess, just to send that out, science Pause.
Yeah, tell me so.
I think it was in the podcastthat you had sent me the
e-commerce fuel.
Is that the e-commercecommunity you were just
referencing a minute ago?
Yes, e-commerce fuel.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
If you are an e-commerce owner and you are not
a member of this community.
By the way, I get no royaltiesfor this.
It is just such a great place.
It's just 1,200 e-commerceowners who are all pretty much
experiencing what you'reexperiencing, and we all
commiserate and try to help eachother build each other up.
No one's there pounding theirchest.
I'm the biggest, the richest,the best.
(17:29):
Everyone comes in with theirhat in their hand and says I
need help and we all try to helpeach other.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It really is amazing.
Love that, love that so yeah.
I wasn't aware of e-commercefuel.
Can people find it?
I'm happy to give them a freeplug here.
Is it just ecommercefuelcom?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I'm assuming yeah, it's ecommercefuelcom and it's a
podcast.
It happens to be a fantasticpodcast as well.
The founder, andrew, is a greatinterviewer, like you, and
really like sort of gets rightto the point, you know, and
talks about some really relevanttopics that he knows the rest
of us are dealing with, and so Ilisten to a lot of it.
(18:06):
It was great being on thepodcast that I listen to the
most.
It was kind of surreal andanyway that's great.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
So it was on that podcast that I think you were
talking about your teachingexperience that you just
referenced, and you said thatyou do not.
There's no textbooks and nonote-taking.
What's that about?
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Yeah, yeah, so I have .
No, there is a textbook thatthe school has, but I don't.
I always say, okay, we're goingto do some reading for it.
I end up assigning none.
Um, I, you're not allowed tohave your laptop out, you're not
allowed to have your phone out.
Um, no, note-taking, I do uhslides.
(18:50):
Uh, every week I uh I don'tknow if you know, but the
schools, most schools, have thisplatform called Canvas and you
release all of everything onthere.
You administer grades and soforth, so I post everything on
there.
But we really mostly do groupprojects and so I talk about,
like the topic.
So let's say, marketing, I'lldo a lecture, two lectures, on
(19:11):
marketing.
The whole thing's posted onCanvas so they can always see it
.
And then I ask them to puttogether a marketing campaign
and just to back up a second.
The class is all about groupprojects.
I split them up into groups ofthree or four.
I have them come up with a newbusiness idea.
I do a lecture on how to comeup with new business ideation
(19:33):
and then for the semester I pickwhatever 10 class or business
ideas, group them together andnow they have to build up that
company.
And so I do a lecture on thetopic, then they have to, like I
said, let's say, build amarketing campaign and then they
present it and we just do thatall throughout the semester and
I basically teachentrepreneurship the way I live
(19:57):
it.
I get rid of the stuff I knowis not good for people I have a
good sense of like what I'mdoing wrong and I don't share
that.
But I have moments of doingthings right and that's what I
try to share with the class.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
This reminds me of a quote.
I heard a sculptor of a quote.
I heard a sculptor a sculptorof you know, beautiful, like
stone sculptures of animals wasasked how do you do this?
You know, you start with thisrock, this, you know, like cube,
solid block of rock, and thenyou create this beautiful statue
(20:35):
of a horse or a person orwhatever.
And he says, oh, it's very easy, you just take away everything
that is not horse, that's great.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Maybe not so easy but certainly said in an easy, you
know, in a simple way, in amemorable way.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, I thought the question of like, can you teach
someone how to be anentrepreneur?
Yeah, and I think that you can.
Um, but I do think there's amindset that you have to have.
I don't and I don't agree thatyou're either born with it or
not.
Um, I think some people mightthink, like, the way that I do
business is not traditional.
(21:15):
The way that I think ofbusiness or operate may not be
traditional, but I know it's nottraditional and so I think
there's ways where you couldshare that with people.
And I think some people havethose tendencies and might think
, you know, this doesn't feelright, this doesn't seem right
because it's unorthodox orunprofessional, but it really is
(21:37):
sort of the right way to be anentrepreneur.
So the first day of class I say, okay, everyone throw out some
ideas.
What would you give me acharacteristic of an
entrepreneur?
And when they end up coming upwith like 40 words, right, and
the one I always get isorganized, and I always say you
know what that's actuallydoesn't belong on the list.
If you are organized, you arenot an entrepreneur, that's
(21:58):
right, and so anyway.
So I feel like people, you knowthey might say they might be
unorganized people, but theyfeel compelled to be organized
and so, anyway, I don't knowwhere I was going with that.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
But you know it's interesting what you say.
But organized and entrepreneurare sort of what you say.
But uh, organized andentrepreneur are sort of
opposite, but but also need eachother, right I?
I always sort of differentiatebetween, you know, the
bureaucrats and the cowboys,right, the cowboy culture,
cowboy entrepreneurs, which ismore the american, just go west
(22:31):
young man, right, yeah, um, andorganized is more bureaucratic.
You know, I was born and raisedin Germany.
It's the get the trains runningon time kind of mentality which
is really annoying.
I mean, those two kinds of theykind of clash, right,
(23:02):
no-transcript.
You know, certainly day one ofa startup versus, you know, $100
million company, you knowwhether that's five or 55 years
later.
You know it becomes lessentrepreneurial and more
organized, right, yeah, and sortof has to be right has to be of
(23:27):
course.
And you know, when we work withcompanies and try to get them
from you know $20 to $50 million, they're like oh, benno, you're
so organized.
Well, yeah, I actually hatebeing organized, but you kind of
have to be right for somethings.
The way you were describingyour teaching gig and your class
(23:52):
and inspiring students aboutentrepreneurialism and how to
start a business, it sounds likeyou get energized by energizing
others, energizing students.
How is energizing studentsdifferent from energizing
employees or coworkers in yourstartup?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Wow, that's a great question.
I mean, I think that okay.
So when you have a classroom,inevitably you have students who
just don't want to be there.
So let's keep those people outof this conversation.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
I do think students by and large— they left 30% of
the bell curve?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yes, right, they really don't.
You know, they just want to getthrough class.
But there's a lot of studentswho want to learn this stuff and
I think the methodology inwhich I teach is eye-opening to
them.
It's constant engagement.
First day of class I say if youdon't like to talk in class, if
(24:53):
you're shy, go to drop an adand get out of the class and go
find something else, because 20%of the grade is based on your
participation.
So if you don't want toparticipate, it's fine, but you
should get out of this classimmediately.
I like to have kids participateand I think it helps them.
It's like you know, when you'rein a business meeting and
everyone's throwing out ideasand spitballing and all that
stuff, eventually you come upwith something.
I think students get a lot moreout of class.
The more that they participate,the more that they're talking.
(25:15):
They'll ask a question.
I rarely just answer them, Itake them through.
Let's think why would youadvertise something on social
media versus Google?
One is push marketing, one ispull marketing.
What's the type of product thatdoes better in search as
opposed to push on social media?
And we go through the process.
(25:36):
We take their business idea andyou know.
So we were talking about thisproduct, that's.
It's this little, it's likethis.
You know this big and it's likea fire pit that you kind of
hold and it really keeps youwarm.
And I was saying, you know,like someone said, should I do
that on my um, do I do that onGoogle or do it on Facebook?
I said, well, let's go through.
(26:02):
Someone types on Google.
They want a fire pit right.
What are they thinking?
What's going through theirbrain?
Well, they're thinking of, likea fire pit right, a big fire
pit in the back.
Nobody's even thinking of ahandheld fire pit.
It's not really a thing.
So of course it has to be onsocial media.
You have to be able to show itthrough photos or, more
importantly, probably throughvideo, exactly what this product
is.
You need to give a customer amoment to say what the hell is
(26:23):
that?
I never thought I needed itbefore, but now that I see it I
need it.
That doesn't work.
Whereas if someone has a blacktie event coming up and they
need a black tie and cummerbund,it's perfect for search
marketing.
You go right into Google, youtype in bow tie and cummerbund,
boom, you know the Facebook ads.
What are the odds that the?
(26:43):
And if you're shopping throughyour browser for bow tie and
cover?
But I can assure you it's goingto start showing up in your
Facebook feed.
But but truly, that's wheresearch search market engine
advertising belongs.
So, anyway, I like to to gothrough that analysis with
(27:04):
students, and when we do thattogether, that's when those
moments of like wow, I love this, I love the analysis that goes
with this.
Had I just said Facebook'sbetter next question, I don't
think they would have enjoyed itas much.
And I have them participatewith me in going through the
analysis.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Do you do that with employees and team members that
are on your payroll as well?
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I would say, I'm a notoriously right.
Yeah, I'm a notoriously terriblemanager.
I'm so bad.
It's not that I don'tappreciate and I don't want to
teach, I just like I don't know.
I feel like people don't wantto be lectured to.
I hated being an employee andso I never want to be that kind
(27:50):
of boss, and so what I end updoing is I end up being almost
no kind of boss.
And listen, I run my companyremotely too, and so a lot of my
emails I mean a lot of mymanaging has to go through email
.
You can imagine themisunderstandings that can
happen that way.
I try not to bother them.
I try not to micromanage them.
I try to empower them.
(28:11):
You know, like everyone saysthe best leaders in power, blah,
blah I'm sure I'm doing ashitty job of it I try.
I'm not.
I can't be good at.
There's only some things Icould be good at.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
I'm not good at that you know what, uh, you were
talking earlier about?
Uh, our entrepreneurs.
You know born or raised, or youknow born or raised, or you
know born or taught to beentrepreneurs.
That people say that aboutleaders, right, you're either a
born leader or you're not.
I happen to believe that Idon't think of myself as a born
(28:44):
leader.
It's something that I havethought, you know, think about a
lot, have thought aboutthroughout my adult life like
how can I help get othersexcited and get shit done at the
same time?
Right, because it's not justabout, like in a classroom, it's
sort of about get them excitedand get a conversation going.
(29:06):
There's no P&L at the end of it.
There's a grade, but no P&L.
You didn't, you know you or thestudent did not put up 50,
$50,000 of their home equity toattend or make the class.
You know they'll either get agood grade or not, but I think
leadership is um, a tie bar.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
We had one person, one employee, leave us in nine
years and it's because she movedfrom out of state.
Um, and I wasn't a greatmanager, but we were successful
and I worked my ass off and Ithink they saw it and they were
they.
They they wanted to be part ofthat yeah, they wanted to be
part of it and so, with bow tiesof vermont, which was kind of a
turnaround company, that's mycurrent company.
Yeah, there was, you know,covid hit soon after I bought it
(29:55):
and we started selling masks.
We were one of the earlycompanies that started selling
masks and we went from being a$3 million company to selling
$20 million over a period of twoyears almost overnight, right
over a period of two yearsalmost overnight, right.
So we went imagine the chaos of3 million to 20 million,
(30:18):
especially, by the way, when youknow that it's temporary
because the COVID's going to end, right, and so a lot of the
employees, like I, didn't managein the way that you might get
taught in school or you mightread from someone giving advice
on LinkedIn that you didn't askfor, but so I couldn't.
I didn't necessarily do that,but I you know, our company was
(30:38):
in danger of going out ofbusiness at first.
Remember those first few momentsof COVID everyone was sort of
falling apart and I had tofurlough everybody.
At first I had 23 employeesthat are furloughed, but not
only that, obviously, bring themback, but we almost doubled in
size very quickly, and so theywatched all that happen and they
saw how busy we got and theysaw why we were getting busy.
(31:00):
It wasn't like you sell masks,you make money.
There was a lot of intentionaldesigning, marketing, email
communication, branding, a lotof that stuff went on on and
they watched me do it and I wasstill new.
I was less than a year new tothe company and I think they
watched me in action sort ofbecome an entrepreneur, because
when you were selling masks itwas like a.
(31:21):
It was finally one of theseraces where everyone starts at
the starting line at the sametime, because before COVID,
nobody sold a mask Right, and soall of a sudden, all these
businesses and entrepreneurs arelining up to start selling
masks and we I don't know thatwe won the race, but we
definitely did very well in therace and I think they watched it
happen and they were inspiredby that.
Nobody left me and people stuckaround and I, of course,
(31:44):
rewarded them for stickingaround, anyway.
So, like again for leadership,like I suck at being a manager,
but I do believe thatperformance and focus and things
like that can really inspireyour employees to do well,
rather than just always pattingthem on the back because they
did something well or givingthem autonomy.
All those things matter, but Ithink it sometimes can be more.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I'm with you, I'm going to leave it.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation and I love the way
in which you just you know,freely and openly share sort of
the good, the bad and the ugly.
Here's stuff I know.
Here's stuff that's workedreally well for me.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
here's stuff eh, not so much.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
If folks wanted to get in touch with you.
I don't know if they can findyou on LinkedIn, I suppose.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, linkedin I like to use as like a Rolodex, and a
little bit of a um, I like to Idon't know what you'd call it,
but anyway, um, no, I I useLinkedIn.
Uh, I, you know I don't want tobe sold anything.
I already have enough of thatin my inbox, but I love
connecting with people for trueconnections, not to be sold
anything, um, and then we canstart there and, depending what
(32:49):
the conversation is, we canalways move it offline, that
sort of thing.
But it's an easy way to followme.
And then our, my company is bowties, spelled b-e-a-u, so
b-e-a-u ties, t-i-e-s, l-t-dcomyeah, so like limited yeah,
perfect, that's our website,thank you thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
thank you for hopping on this episode and sharing
your pearls of wisdom and otherand just wisdom.
This was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much, greg Allright, take care All right.
Thank you for listening to thisepisode of TGO Podcast.
(33:31):
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO Podcast, there as well.
Just email, benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
Let's keep growing.
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