January 9, 2025 • 33 mins
Are you looking for a Third Growth Option ℠ ?
Understanding the complexities of selling a business can be daunting for entrepreneurs, but this episode dives deep into M&A processes, from initial evaluations to closing the deal. With actionable insights and real-world success stories, this discussion illuminates the journey of preparing your business for sale.
• Importance of understanding motivations behind selling
• Basics of initial evaluations and financial assessments
• The role of branding and culture in business value
• Identifying and managing potential risk factors
• Key components of business valuation and EBITDA overview
• Steps to prepare for an effective sales process
• Crafting targeted marketing materials for prospective buyers
• Insights on Letters of Intent and due diligence
• Strategies for improving business readiness for sale
• Success stories that demonstrate transformative outcomes
Always growing.
Benno Duenkelsbuehler
CEO & Chief Sherpa of (re)ALIGN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Benno (00:01):
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast, where
we talk about all things growth,yes, even and especially those
hard parts where you shed someskin and pick yourself up by the
bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Sally Anne (00:33):
Hi, benno, thank you for having me on your podcast.
I am Sally Ann Hughes, I am aninvestment banker and today I am
in my home office in Summit,new Jersey.
Benno (00:47):
Anchor and today I am in my home office in Summit, new
Jersey.
All right, sally Ann, I'mexcited to have you on here.
I'm Benno Third Growth OptionPodcast host and, sally Ann, you
hung out your M&A shingle about16 years ago.
Before that, you spent eightyears with Citibank yeah, at the
end at the VP level, financestrategy roles.
You have an MBA from theUniversity of Virginia Darden
(01:09):
School and you know a thing ortwo about a thing or two about
M&A.
So you and I met each other acouple different GHTA
conferences, the last one acouple months ago in Charleston,
south Carolina and you work alot with mid-sized businesses,
often family-owned business,sometimes PE-owned and I want
(01:34):
you to just share with ourlisteners and our viewers sort
of five different topics.
Initial evaluation you know thethings.
(01:59):
Sort of five different topics.
Initial evaluation what aresome evaluation basics?
How, what do you do when thecompany is not quite ready for
sale, when the baby is not quitepretty enough, right?
And then how do you movethrough the selling process,
sales process, once all signsare green and go, and then maybe
, hopefully, we'll have time fora favorite success story at the
end, but I'll just kind of kickit back to you Initial
evaluation.
Somebody calls you and says hey, I'm thinking about selling my
company.
(02:21):
You have to kind of determine isit a pretty baby or an ugly
baby, and you don't want to callthe ugly baby ugly and all of
that.
Sally Anne (02:25):
I mean we get a lot of those phone calls right.
We work with entrepreneurs whoare looking to sell their
businesses, and that really isthe first step that people take
when they're thinking aboutselling their business is
calling somebody like me andsaying, hey, you know, I'd like
to sell my business.
And I guess you know what werespond initially is not you
(02:47):
know, tell us about yourbusiness, but why?
What are your goals and why areyou looking to sell your
business?
And I think that's, you know,that's really important.
And sometimes it's forretirement and sometimes it is
because somebody wants to takesome money off the table right
there, a lot of entrepreneurshave all of their money invested
(03:09):
in their business.
Sure, and sometimes people cometo us and say, hey, you know,
I've reached a point in mybusiness where I think it needs,
you know, a partner or moremoney or more professional
management, and I'm interestedin finding a partner to help me
do that.
I'm interested in finding apartner to help me do that.
So that's kind of the firstquestion.
I'm like, okay, why and whatare you looking for out of a
transaction?
(03:30):
And then I think the secondthing that we always talk about
is like well, what are thefinancials looking like in your
business?
Right, because you know whatdoes the P&L look like, what
does the balance sheet look like?
And you know, fundamentally,buyers are looking for
profitable businesses that aregrowing.
And if you know that the storyis always told in the P&L, both
(03:54):
in that information and then inkind of like more subjective
things like is this a well runcompany?
You know, do you?
Do you have great margins?
Are your margins better thanyour competitors?
Have your sales been growingover time?
You know all the things thatyou can learn from taking a look
at somebody's financialstatements.
I think another thing that'simportant that we would always
(04:18):
ask somebody to discuss is kindof like a little bit about the
brand and their culture is kindof like a little bit about the
brand and their culture.
We have found that companiesthat really do have a brand and
that are differentiated sellmore easily than those that are
just kind of like product-basedbusinesses.
Benno (04:38):
Right, and when you say brand and culture, it's
interesting you put the twotogether.
Yeah, juxtapose the two,because I think they're actually
flip sides of the same coin,right?
Brand is sort of what thepromise is to the outside
stakeholders, the customers, andculture is sort of what is the
(04:58):
promise to the inside employeesand team members.
Sally Anne (05:03):
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
It is, I mean, from theperspective of a buyer.
Right, a buyer looks at thosetypes of things in terms of will
this company continue to grow?
Right, and if you have a goodteam and a good culture and you
have a brand, the answers tothose questions are more likely
(05:23):
to be yes than no, and they dohelp value in the business.
But another important thingthat we always have on those
initial conversations is likehey, are there any major risk
factors in your business?
And that's another thing buyersare going to be looking at.
Right, Is there something inthis business that could
(05:43):
potentially cause it to falter?
That's something that we alwayswant to know.
Benno (05:49):
And I bet that your answer to that question and the
owner's answers to that questionare probably different, because
you're coming in as an outsiderasking things and seeing things
that the insider is not goingto see the same way, or at all
in some cases.
Is that true?
Sally Anne (06:08):
Yeah, although I think you know most
entrepreneurs are pretty astuteand can know, kind of like, what
are the upsides and what arethe downside risks of this
business.
I mean, like some of the thingsthat we would ask about in
terms of risk.
Right is customer concentration.
Yeah, you know what percentageof your business is attributable
(06:32):
to.
You know one or two customers,and if it's over like 30 or 40
percent, it doesn't mean thatyou can't sell the business, but
it's something that's going togive a buyer pause.
Benno (06:42):
When those two customers get a cold, the company gets
pneumonia yeah, yeah, yeah,that's true, absolutely.
Sally Anne (06:51):
Um, you know another thing, sorry, go ahead, benno
no, no, I, I was wondering if itmight.
Benno (06:57):
uh, so we're kind of getting into the valuation
basics now already, aren't we?
So?
First phone call, you'reevaluating the company from a
financial perspective, from asales mix, customer perspective,
from an internal processes andculture perspective, and then
(07:19):
you're getting into valuationbasics.
What are the main drivers there?
Sally Anne (07:24):
Yeah, that is always a question that comes up from
the buyer, from the sellers,right After we've had a
conversation about hey, you know, can your business be sold?
That's.
The next question is like well,what do you think is the
potential value of my business?
And most businesses are sold asa multiple of EBITDA.
(07:45):
So what does EBITDA mean?
That's obviously earnings, netincome plus interest,
depreciation and amortization.
And then the most importantquestion is what is the multiple
that you would apply to anyparticular business?
And that always depends, right,and it depends on a lot of
(08:07):
factors.
Size is very important.
You know, the bigger thebusiness, the higher the
multiple.
Industry, you know, softwarebusinesses tend to get the
highest multiples ever becausethey have very strong recurring
business and generally lowoverhead.
(08:28):
Most businesses would have arange in a particular industry
and then any one business wouldfall somewhere either towards
the top of that range or towardsthe bottom of the range,
depending on specific factors inthat particular business,
depending on specific factors inthat particular business.
Benno (08:47):
So we work with mid-sized manufacturers and distributors,
and by mid-sized we're talkinganywhere from, say, $5 million
to $500 million of revenue.
Sally Anne (09:06):
Can you give a range of multiple and EBITDA in that
size company and that type ofcompany?
Well, it depends.
I mean it depends on theprofitability, more so right,
but if you have a company thathas say I don't know, $10
million of EBITDA that is eithera well.
Manufacturers and distributorsare going to get different types
of multiples right.
A manufacturer would typicallyget a higher multiple.
(09:29):
If you have a manufacturer thathas $8 to $10 million of EBITDA
, they're going to be highsingle digit multiples,
generally A distributor-.
Benno (09:39):
High single digit 789.
789.
Sally Anne (09:42):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, but there's always factors that
would drive that up or pull itdown.
Right, if it was in aparticular industry that was a
low growth industry say it was aprinting company right, that
would get a much lower valuationthan if it was in a higher
growth business.
Yeah, a smaller company you'regoing to be looking at four,
(10:04):
five, six.
Benno (10:08):
Got you, got you, okay.
A smaller company you're goingto be looking at four, five, six
, got you, got you, okay.
What other?
So size of company or uh ebitasize yeah type of company are
driving uh, the ebita, multipleuh, and then obviously the
health of the company, right?
Sally Anne (10:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Benno (10:25):
Which are some of the things that you talked about
that you look at on the firstdate with a yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sally Anne (10:31):
I mean, how does that particular company compare
to others in its space?
Right, if the company hasbetter margins and is more
efficient in generating cash forthe same amount of revenue,
that's going to drive upvaluation.
If the company is growingreally quickly, right, I mean,
what a buyer wants is to seegreat margins and strong growth
(10:56):
and the closer you get to those,the higher the valuation is
going to be within reason, right?
I mean, you know most companieswill sell within that type of
range.
But I think you know a lot ofentrepreneurs think very
carefully about, like, what isthis multiple of EBITDA?
But there's a lot of otherthings to consider, right, not
(11:16):
just the multiple.
Oftentimes, when a company issold, you might not get 100%
cash at closing.
Right, you might not get 100%cash at closing.
Benno (11:30):
So the terms that you get , are just as important as what
the multiple is Right.
So you might get eight times$10 million of EBITDA and $80
million, but not get that $80million in a check on the day of
the sale, but over three orfive years.
Sally Anne (11:49):
Yeah, I mean that wouldn't be ideal.
Right, Like entrepreneurs are.
Benno (11:52):
You know, I don't think there's ever been an
entrepreneur that doesn't want100% cash of closing.
Sally Anne (12:02):
But generally, what happens if you run a successful
process and you have multiplebuyers that come to the table is
you're going to be comparingapples to oranges, right?
Would you rather get I don'tknow $60 million cash at closing
or would you rather have an $80million transaction where
you're getting 50 cash and theother 30 paid out over time?
That's a really difficultdecision for a lot of people to
(12:27):
make and of course, it woulddepend on what is the function
of the buyer, what is the buyergoing to bring and how involved
is the seller going to continueto be in the business, and a lot
of other factors.
But I mean okay, so terms areimportant, the multiple is
(12:48):
important.
The way the deal is structuredwill impact taxes, right?
So you always want to make surethat there's minimal taxes that
you're going to pay, because inany transaction, taxes will
take up a big chunk.
And you know we, when we'retalking to a prospective client,
right, about the multiple, wewill generally give them some
(13:11):
guidance.
But the actual multiple that abuyer will get is not going to
be the exact same thing that wegive as guidance, right, if
we're selling a company and wehave five offers.
Those offers can rangesignificantly.
I mean, like we have hadcompanies where one buyer comes
(13:31):
with a five times multiple andthen you get a better buyer and
they have a seven times multipleRight.
So you know the process thatyou run and the ability to reach
out to and find the best buyersalso, you know, significantly
impacts the valuation at the endof the day get ready for the
(14:04):
process, but let's jump intorunning a successful sale
process.
Benno (14:06):
Right, you've already mentioned multiple offices
better than one offer.
But talk a little bit aboutsetting up an ideal sale process
.
Sally Anne (14:13):
Well, I always think of breaking down the process to
sell a business into threephases, right, the first phase
is getting ready and gettingmarketing materials put together
that you're going to use toreach out to prospective buyers
and putting together a goodbuyer list, understanding the
(14:33):
business and understanding whothe potential best buyers are
going to be.
The marketing materials that wegenerally put together to sell
a company is a deck Sometimesit's called a SIM or a
confidential informationmemorandum, and that will
typically have an overview ofthe company and the financials
and some growth projections andalso a one-page teaser which
(14:58):
doesn't identify the company butit can be used to send out to
buyers and then if buyers areinterested in the particular
company, they will sign an NDAand at that point they get the
SIM.
So, getting all of that kind ofput together and arranged as
phase one, getting everythingready to go.
Phase two is reaching out andtalking to prospective buyers,
(15:20):
which is obviously somethingthat the investment banker does
and we like to approach thatkind of like on a consultative
sales basis.
Ok, you reach out to the buyers,you really understand what the
buyer is looking for and then,if there is a fit with our
particular client, it's a veryeasy sale to kind of sell that
particular business to theprospective buyer.
It's a very easy sale to kind ofsell that particular business
to the prospective buyer Afterthey've had a couple of
(15:44):
conversations with us and seenthe, the SIM.
Generally, they also want totalk to the seller right and in
this day of zoom it's so mucheasier and most of the initial
conversations with a buyer and aseller are over zoom and
generally a, an entrepreneur,would have multiple
(16:06):
conversations with potentialbuyers and our goal in those
conversations is to keepmultiple buyers all kind of in
the same timing so that we cansolicit multiple offers from
multiple buyers.
And what generally a buyer putsforth is a letter of intent,
(16:28):
which is a term sheet which willoutline all of the specifics of
the transaction, includingeverything like rate, what is
the overall valuation, what arethe terms that they're going to
pay, how fast do they expect tobe able to close the transaction
and what role do they expectthe buyer to take on
post-closing.
Benno (16:51):
And in the LOI letter of intent are also some you know I
call them sort of emergency exitloopholes, where it's sort of
pending this outcome, we willpay X multiple Pending that
outcome.
You know we expect the terms tobe such and such.
But because after the LOI comesthe deep dive, the, what is the
(17:18):
word?
Due diligence?
Due diligence, that was a DDdeep dive, due diligence.
Sally Anne (17:24):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Benno (17:27):
Because then comes the due diligence, where the buyer,
the potential buyer, gets toreally, you know, sort of check
under the hood.
I mean more than kick the tires, yeah.
Sally Anne (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean there's different
approaches to letters of intent.
Right, I want the letter ofintent to be very specific and
not leave any room for ambiguity, because one of the things that
a letter of intent usuallyincludes is something that's
called a no-shot provision.
That means that once you sign aletter of intent usually
(18:04):
includes is something that'scalled a no-shop provision.
That means that once you sign aletter of intent with one buyer
and you embark on this nextphase, which is the third phase
of getting to closing, you'rebasically going to tell all the
other buyers hey, we're under aletter of intent, we can't talk
to you anymore.
Benno (18:17):
It's exclusive dating before you get married.
Sally Anne (18:20):
Exactly.
Yes, it is.
Benno (18:22):
It is.
We're not going to date otherpeople, we're just checking each
other out.
Sally Anne (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I mean from the seller'sperspective, you obviously have
a lot more leverage while thebuyer is wanting you to sign
that Right.
Right, but you know, once thatletter of intent does get signed
, you're right.
The next phase is kind of likethere's two things that are
happening simultaneously.
(18:49):
The buyer is doing a deep diveinto the company and if we have
done our upfront preparationwork properly and carefully,
most of the time that is justthe buyer confirming the things
that we have already told themare accurate and true right.
A buyer wants to know do youmake the money that you say you
(19:10):
make?
And they're going to obviouslycheck the financials.
And they want to know do youown the things that you say you
own right?
Is your factory in good workingorder?
Do you have intellectualproperty and all of the other
types of things that go intoadding to the value of the
business?
Benno (19:26):
And how confident are they in the five-year forecast?
Sally Anne (19:29):
Yeah.
Benno (19:30):
Which is really what they're buying, right?
Yeah, yeah, because a companyis not buying last year's P&L,
they're buying next year's P&L.
Sally Anne (19:37):
Exactly Five years from now.
P&l yeah you know five yearsfrom now you know, yeah, I mean,
but it brings up an interestingcomment, right, because you do
not want the buyer discoveringthings during due diligence that
are, you know, not ideal, right?
So every company has one or twothings right that they've done.
Maybe they skipped things hereor there, or some forms are not
(19:59):
properly filled out, or there'sa weakness or potential client
that might be problematic, orsomething, right?
Benno (20:05):
just like in dating.
Just like in dating, all of ushave like troublesome childhood
stories that come out, you know,not on the first date but
before marriage, hopefullyexactly.
Sally Anne (20:15):
Yes, no, that's really true.
But you you're better offgetting that up front, right?
You need to have thatconversation with your
prospective spouse before youget married, not like kind of
three weeks before the wedding.
Benno (20:27):
That's right.
Sally Anne (20:29):
So you definitely want to disclose anything like
that up front before the letterof intent is signed, because
otherwise you know some buyerswill use things like that that
come up in order to kind ofrenegotiate on a transaction
will use things like that thatcome up in order to kind of
renegotiate on a transaction.
Benno (20:49):
And it's interesting what you say about the letter of
intent, because I have beeninvolved in a multitude of
different M&A sales and you knowselling and buying side
situations and sometimes theletter of intent is more
loosey-goosey, like you know,kind of a fancy and you know
basically a fancy NDA, but whatyou're talking about is pretty
(21:13):
tight, airtight.
I'm supposing that you like tohave non-refundable deposits as
part of LOIs.
Sally Anne (21:25):
Actually, no, that is not with a larger transaction
.
I mean, if you're selling avery small business, I think you
know people do kind of wantdeposits, but with a large
company it is not typical toprovide a deposit.
Okay, it is not typical toprovide a deposit Okay, but I
(21:47):
mean we want to know that thebuyer has money right and that
is one of the most importantthings in terms of thinking
about who is a buyer and willthis buyer get to closing and
where is the money that they aregoing to use to fund this
transaction coming from, right,that they are going to use to
fund this transaction comingfrom?
You know, in the private equityworld there's two different
types of private equity firms.
(22:07):
One is a private equity firmthat has a fund that has already
gone out and raised money andhas it basically sitting in the
bank account.
The other type of privateequity firm is something that is
called an independent sponsor.
The other type of privateequity firm is something that is
called an independent sponsor.
Those private equity firms willgo out and raise money on a
(22:28):
deal-by-deal basis.
So if you're looking at twodifferent buyers, right,
obviously the PE firm with afund is more attractive than
somebody that comes to you andsays, hey, I love your business,
but I've got to go find somemoney, right, right, right,
(22:50):
let's talk a little bit aboutwhen a company is not ready.
Benno (22:52):
When you do the initial evaluation, you go through the
valuation and you come up with anumber that the seller says,
with a number that the sellersays, no, I was hoping to get
doubled or quintupled that right.
And you say, well, if you do X,y and Z, it could probably be
(23:12):
worth double or quintuple that.
But you think you have a prettybaby, but I think it's not
pretty enough to get five timeswhat.
Yeah, I think it's worth.
How do you help put?
How do you help, uh,prospective sellers get ready
for a sale?
Sally Anne (23:30):
that is that hits goals yeah, um, I mean, I think
one of the most important thingsis is helping entrepreneurs
understand what the drivers arethat go into valuation right,
because sometimes people come tous and they just don't know
what a reasonable valuation is.
But, as you said, a lot ofpeople you know find out what
(23:52):
the valuation is and it's notgoing to meet their goals, it's
not what they need or it doesn'tprovide a return for them that
they think is, you know, worththe time and the effort and the
tremendous amount of effortthey've put into building the
business.
So in that scenario, I mean,basically, the entrepreneur has
(24:13):
to increase sales or increaseprofitability.
Nine out of 10 times, right.
Sometimes there's something elsefor the business that needs to
be fixed, but the most important, the number one reason, is like
, hey, the EBITDA is not whereyou want it to be, given the
type of multiple that thiscompany is likely to get.
So what can you do to increasethe EBITDA?
(24:35):
And we have lots ofconversations with clients on
this and I know that's somethingkind of.
This is a, you know, an areathat you are definitely an
expert in, right In terms of howdo you drive sales, an area
that you are definitely anexpert in right In terms of how
do you drive sales and how doyou improve profitability, and I
would say that many of thebusinesses that come to us say
(25:00):
time and time again hey, wedon't have a strong sales team,
right, if, well, this businesscould be bigger, but we just
don't have the salespeople inplace.
And I think that's one keything that a lot of people take
away is like okay, you have tobolster up your sales team in
order to drive sales, in orderto drive profitability, in order
to be able to sell yourbusiness.
Benno (25:23):
So you bring in cats like my Sherpas right when we look
at.
You know this is the thirdgrowth option podcast and we
call it that because in my dayjob I run a company called
Realign that helps companiesgrow faster than internal
organic growth, less risky thanacquisition, by doing one of
(25:44):
these three things.
One we help companies add newadjacent product categories as
one way to.
You know, they're sellingapples but not oranges, so we
help them add new adjacentcategories to drive profitable
top line growth.
Or we help them access newchannels of distribution right,
they're selling in this type ofbrick and mortar store but not
(26:06):
that type.
Or online but not offline, orvice versa.
Or number three just fix thego-to-market, which comes back
to branding or product orculture or internal processes.
Sally Anne (26:22):
Obviously, it's a lot easier said than done, right
.
Benno (26:31):
That takes time.
All that gray hair Not so easyto do.
Sally Anne (26:34):
Yeah, no, it's not easy at all.
And you know what?
If it was easy, theentrepreneur would already have
done it Right.
It is challenging and it doestake time, and in some
circumstances people come backto us after a couple of years
and say, okay, we've moved theneedle now already.
And other times they come backand say we, you know now, we
(26:57):
know what the valuation is.
We tried, but we did not movethe needle.
And you know, can we still sella business?
Benno (27:05):
Give me a favorite success story.
You know, can we still sell thebusiness?
Give me a favorite successstory because I know that you've
been doing this for 16 yearsand you know there, I think the
reason we all do what we do,what gets us up in the morning,
is because, at the end of theday, we have these stories where
we really made a difference insomebody's life, right, I mean
(27:27):
yeah, yeah, like.
My favorite one is a $5 millioncompany is now doing 30 plus
million dollars and the ownercame to me two or three years
into.
Sally Anne (27:36):
It's like I don't.
Benno (27:37):
I've never worked this little and made this much money.
Sally Anne (27:40):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean I don't know that I have
a favorite transaction, right,because it is just like what you
said, right, the transactionsthat we work on, we are helping
somebody make a significantchange in their lives.
(28:01):
It's a big financial change anda big personal change change and
a big personal change and it'sreally kind of like it's an
amazing privilege for us to helpsomebody through that
transition and to know that wedid it well and to get to the
end point where somebody has,you know, received all this
money in their bank account andthey are retiring or they're
(28:24):
embarking on a new phase intheir business.
It's amazing and that is whatkind of like I appreciate.
And we have seen that a coupleof years ago we sold a business
that had been started by a veryyoung husband and wife and they
built the company over thecourse of four years, very
(28:45):
quickly, grew it and sold it fortens of millions of dollars and
they're set for the rest oftheir life, right.
Or we've worked with last yearwe sold a business that was a
couple that were in their 70sand they were selling their
business to retire and, you know, after the deal closed, they
(29:07):
worked for the buyer for, youknow, in a transition period.
But after that they went toIndia for a couple of months and
it's really kind of amazing tosee that and to know that we
played a part in that.
Benno (29:20):
And whether they flew first class or coach was
something that you could takecredit for right I hope it was
first class.
Sally Anne (29:28):
That's a long flight .
Um no, but that's kind of.
That's kind of like where wecome from.
Right it is we are, I mean, thefinance side and the marketing
side and and the working withattorneys and getting you know
things like reps and warranties.
All all of that is thetechnical side of getting these
(29:50):
deals closed, but the I don'tknow if emotional side is the
right word, but it is somebody'sbusiness that they have built
over 20, 30 years or sometimesless.
Benno (30:04):
But that to me is is I guess that's not a favorite
transaction, but that is myfavorite part of working and
doing this I completelyunderstand that how you think
about it and to me, just likeyou said at the very beginning,
(30:27):
you want to know, um, in theinitial evaluation, why do you
want to sell it right, not justhow much do you want to sell it
for?
And yeah, but why?
Your answer to my questionwhat's been your favorite
transaction having emotionallysatisfying elements?
And it is also sort of the whyyou know it's not just.
(30:51):
You know the most profitabletransaction was my favorite.
No, I mean like to me, thisclient that we still work with
nine, ten years into it.
Having said that to me, right,that?
I've never worked this little tomake this much, I thought, oh,
this is all worth it.
Sally Anne (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Benno (31:12):
Not my biggest client, not my biggest project, but that
was sort of you know.
I'll take that statement to thegrave.
Sally Anne (31:18):
Yeah, no, it's really, really important.
And yeah, it's nice to feelthat you have made a change in
people's lives.
I mean, the money is importantfor everybody, right?
Don't get me wrong.
Like there's never been aclient who said, oh, you know,
I'm more interested in thetransition than the money.
The money is super important,but to have both is really
(31:40):
amazing.
Benno (31:42):
Sally Ann, if folks wanted to reach out to you,
where is a good place to findyou?
If folks wanted to reach out toyou, where's a good place to
find you?
Maybe feel free to give youremail address or your website
address, or maybe people justreach out to you on LinkedIn.
Sally Anne (31:54):
however, Sure, no, all of the above.
I'm on LinkedIn, SallyannHughes.
My email is shughes athughesclivercom.
Or you can go to our websiteand send us a message through
the website, or you can call mycell, which is 917-568-4185 look
(32:16):
at you.
Benno (32:16):
Now it's out there in cyberspace your cell number
terrific.
Yeah, sallyann, this was a lotof fun.
By the way.
Uh, the hughesclivercom cliberis ai, not ei, is that?
Sally Anne (32:27):
yes, that's right.
Yep K-L-A-I-B-E-R Looking outfor you.
Benno (32:30):
Sally Ann, thank you.
All right, this was great.
Thank you so much for jumpingon this episode with me and look
forward to more conversations,and actually I have something
that I'm going to reach out toyou right after this.
Sally Anne (32:50):
Great.
Benno (32:51):
You and I are going to create some more content.
All right, thank you so much,everybody.
Sally Anne (32:57):
Thank you, benno, it's great.
Benno (33:02):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO Podcast.
For listening to this episodeof TGO podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(33:24):
Let's keep growing.
Hey, welcome to the Third Growth Officer podcast, where
we talk about all things growth,yes, even and especially those
hard parts where you shed someskin and pick yourself up by the
bootstraps.
Hey, I'm Benno Dunkelspüler,growth sherpa and OG hashtag
growth nerd.
We're on a mission to redefinesuccess inside and outside the
(00:23):
business, one TGO episode at atime.
Sally Anne (00:33):
Hi, benno, thank you for having me on your podcast.
I am Sally Ann Hughes, I am aninvestment banker and today I am
in my home office in Summit,new Jersey.
Benno (00:47):
Anchor and today I am in my home office in Summit, new
Jersey.
All right, sally Ann, I'mexcited to have you on here.
I'm Benno Third Growth OptionPodcast host and, sally Ann, you
hung out your M&A shingle about16 years ago.
Before that, you spent eightyears with Citibank yeah, at the
end at the VP level, financestrategy roles.
You have an MBA from theUniversity of Virginia Darden
(01:09):
School and you know a thing ortwo about a thing or two about
M&A.
So you and I met each other acouple different GHTA
conferences, the last one acouple months ago in Charleston,
south Carolina and you work alot with mid-sized businesses,
often family-owned business,sometimes PE-owned and I want
(01:34):
you to just share with ourlisteners and our viewers sort
of five different topics.
Initial evaluation you know thethings.
(01:59):
Sort of five different topics.
Initial evaluation what aresome evaluation basics?
How, what do you do when thecompany is not quite ready for
sale, when the baby is not quitepretty enough, right?
And then how do you movethrough the selling process,
sales process, once all signsare green and go, and then maybe
, hopefully, we'll have time fora favorite success story at the
end, but I'll just kind of kickit back to you Initial
evaluation.
Somebody calls you and says hey, I'm thinking about selling my
company.
(02:21):
You have to kind of determine isit a pretty baby or an ugly
baby, and you don't want to callthe ugly baby ugly and all of
that.
Sally Anne (02:25):
I mean we get a lot of those phone calls right.
We work with entrepreneurs whoare looking to sell their
businesses, and that really isthe first step that people take
when they're thinking aboutselling their business is
calling somebody like me andsaying, hey, you know, I'd like
to sell my business.
And I guess you know what werespond initially is not you
(02:47):
know, tell us about yourbusiness, but why?
What are your goals and why areyou looking to sell your
business?
And I think that's, you know,that's really important.
And sometimes it's forretirement and sometimes it is
because somebody wants to takesome money off the table right
there, a lot of entrepreneurshave all of their money invested
(03:09):
in their business.
Sure, and sometimes people cometo us and say, hey, you know,
I've reached a point in mybusiness where I think it needs,
you know, a partner or moremoney or more professional
management, and I'm interestedin finding a partner to help me
do that.
I'm interested in finding apartner to help me do that.
So that's kind of the firstquestion.
I'm like, okay, why and whatare you looking for out of a
transaction?
(03:30):
And then I think the secondthing that we always talk about
is like well, what are thefinancials looking like in your
business?
Right, because you know whatdoes the P&L look like, what
does the balance sheet look like?
And you know, fundamentally,buyers are looking for
profitable businesses that aregrowing.
And if you know that the storyis always told in the P&L, both
(03:54):
in that information and then inkind of like more subjective
things like is this a well runcompany?
You know, do you?
Do you have great margins?
Are your margins better thanyour competitors?
Have your sales been growingover time?
You know all the things thatyou can learn from taking a look
at somebody's financialstatements.
I think another thing that'simportant that we would always
(04:18):
ask somebody to discuss is kindof like a little bit about the
brand and their culture is kindof like a little bit about the
brand and their culture.
We have found that companiesthat really do have a brand and
that are differentiated sellmore easily than those that are
just kind of like product-basedbusinesses.
Benno (04:38):
Right, and when you say brand and culture, it's
interesting you put the twotogether.
Yeah, juxtapose the two,because I think they're actually
flip sides of the same coin,right?
Brand is sort of what thepromise is to the outside
stakeholders, the customers, andculture is sort of what is the
(04:58):
promise to the inside employeesand team members.
Sally Anne (05:03):
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
It is, I mean, from theperspective of a buyer.
Right, a buyer looks at thosetypes of things in terms of will
this company continue to grow?
Right, and if you have a goodteam and a good culture and you
have a brand, the answers tothose questions are more likely
(05:23):
to be yes than no, and they dohelp value in the business.
But another important thingthat we always have on those
initial conversations is likehey, are there any major risk
factors in your business?
And that's another thing buyersare going to be looking at.
Right, Is there something inthis business that could
(05:43):
potentially cause it to falter?
That's something that we alwayswant to know.
Benno (05:49):
And I bet that your answer to that question and the
owner's answers to that questionare probably different, because
you're coming in as an outsiderasking things and seeing things
that the insider is not goingto see the same way, or at all
in some cases.
Is that true?
Sally Anne (06:08):
Yeah, although I think you know most
entrepreneurs are pretty astuteand can know, kind of like, what
are the upsides and what arethe downside risks of this
business.
I mean, like some of the thingsthat we would ask about in
terms of risk.
Right is customer concentration.
Yeah, you know what percentageof your business is attributable
(06:32):
to.
You know one or two customers,and if it's over like 30 or 40
percent, it doesn't mean thatyou can't sell the business, but
it's something that's going togive a buyer pause.
Benno (06:42):
When those two customers get a cold, the company gets
pneumonia yeah, yeah, yeah,that's true, absolutely.
Sally Anne (06:51):
Um, you know another thing, sorry, go ahead, benno
no, no, I, I was wondering if itmight.
Benno (06:57):
uh, so we're kind of getting into the valuation
basics now already, aren't we?
So?
First phone call, you'reevaluating the company from a
financial perspective, from asales mix, customer perspective,
from an internal processes andculture perspective, and then
(07:19):
you're getting into valuationbasics.
What are the main drivers there?
Sally Anne (07:24):
Yeah, that is always a question that comes up from
the buyer, from the sellers,right After we've had a
conversation about hey, you know, can your business be sold?
That's.
The next question is like well,what do you think is the
potential value of my business?
And most businesses are sold asa multiple of EBITDA.
(07:45):
So what does EBITDA mean?
That's obviously earnings, netincome plus interest,
depreciation and amortization.
And then the most importantquestion is what is the multiple
that you would apply to anyparticular business?
And that always depends, right,and it depends on a lot of
(08:07):
factors.
Size is very important.
You know, the bigger thebusiness, the higher the
multiple.
Industry, you know, softwarebusinesses tend to get the
highest multiples ever becausethey have very strong recurring
business and generally lowoverhead.
(08:28):
Most businesses would have arange in a particular industry
and then any one business wouldfall somewhere either towards
the top of that range or towardsthe bottom of the range,
depending on specific factors inthat particular business,
depending on specific factors inthat particular business.
Benno (08:47):
So we work with mid-sized manufacturers and distributors,
and by mid-sized we're talkinganywhere from, say, $5 million
to $500 million of revenue.
Sally Anne (09:06):
Can you give a range of multiple and EBITDA in that
size company and that type ofcompany?
Well, it depends.
I mean it depends on theprofitability, more so right,
but if you have a company thathas say I don't know, $10
million of EBITDA that is eithera well.
Manufacturers and distributorsare going to get different types
of multiples right.
A manufacturer would typicallyget a higher multiple.
(09:29):
If you have a manufacturer thathas $8 to $10 million of EBITDA
, they're going to be highsingle digit multiples,
generally A distributor-.
Benno (09:39):
High single digit 789.
789.
Sally Anne (09:42):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, but there's always factors that
would drive that up or pull itdown.
Right, if it was in aparticular industry that was a
low growth industry say it was aprinting company right, that
would get a much lower valuationthan if it was in a higher
growth business.
Yeah, a smaller company you'regoing to be looking at four,
(10:04):
five, six.
Benno (10:08):
Got you, got you, okay.
A smaller company you're goingto be looking at four, five, six
, got you, got you, okay.
What other?
So size of company or uh ebitasize yeah type of company are
driving uh, the ebita, multipleuh, and then obviously the
health of the company, right?
Sally Anne (10:23):
Yeah, exactly.
Benno (10:25):
Which are some of the things that you talked about
that you look at on the firstdate with a yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sally Anne (10:31):
I mean, how does that particular company compare
to others in its space?
Right, if the company hasbetter margins and is more
efficient in generating cash forthe same amount of revenue,
that's going to drive upvaluation.
If the company is growingreally quickly, right, I mean,
what a buyer wants is to seegreat margins and strong growth
(10:56):
and the closer you get to those,the higher the valuation is
going to be within reason, right?
I mean, you know most companieswill sell within that type of
range.
But I think you know a lot ofentrepreneurs think very
carefully about, like, what isthis multiple of EBITDA?
But there's a lot of otherthings to consider, right, not
(11:16):
just the multiple.
Oftentimes, when a company issold, you might not get 100%
cash at closing.
Right, you might not get 100%cash at closing.
Benno (11:30):
So the terms that you get , are just as important as what
the multiple is Right.
So you might get eight times$10 million of EBITDA and $80
million, but not get that $80million in a check on the day of
the sale, but over three orfive years.
Sally Anne (11:49):
Yeah, I mean that wouldn't be ideal.
Right, Like entrepreneurs are.
Benno (11:52):
You know, I don't think there's ever been an
entrepreneur that doesn't want100% cash of closing.
Sally Anne (12:02):
But generally, what happens if you run a successful
process and you have multiplebuyers that come to the table is
you're going to be comparingapples to oranges, right?
Would you rather get I don'tknow $60 million cash at closing
or would you rather have an $80million transaction where
you're getting 50 cash and theother 30 paid out over time?
That's a really difficultdecision for a lot of people to
(12:27):
make and of course, it woulddepend on what is the function
of the buyer, what is the buyergoing to bring and how involved
is the seller going to continueto be in the business, and a lot
of other factors.
But I mean okay, so terms areimportant, the multiple is
(12:48):
important.
The way the deal is structuredwill impact taxes, right?
So you always want to make surethat there's minimal taxes that
you're going to pay, because inany transaction, taxes will
take up a big chunk.
And you know we, when we'retalking to a prospective client,
right, about the multiple, wewill generally give them some
(13:11):
guidance.
But the actual multiple that abuyer will get is not going to
be the exact same thing that wegive as guidance, right, if
we're selling a company and wehave five offers.
Those offers can rangesignificantly.
I mean, like we have hadcompanies where one buyer comes
(13:31):
with a five times multiple andthen you get a better buyer and
they have a seven times multipleRight.
So you know the process thatyou run and the ability to reach
out to and find the best buyersalso, you know, significantly
impacts the valuation at the endof the day get ready for the
(14:04):
process, but let's jump intorunning a successful sale
process.
Benno (14:06):
Right, you've already mentioned multiple offices
better than one offer.
But talk a little bit aboutsetting up an ideal sale process
.
Sally Anne (14:13):
Well, I always think of breaking down the process to
sell a business into threephases, right, the first phase
is getting ready and gettingmarketing materials put together
that you're going to use toreach out to prospective buyers
and putting together a goodbuyer list, understanding the
(14:33):
business and understanding whothe potential best buyers are
going to be.
The marketing materials that wegenerally put together to sell
a company is a deck Sometimesit's called a SIM or a
confidential informationmemorandum, and that will
typically have an overview ofthe company and the financials
and some growth projections andalso a one-page teaser which
(14:58):
doesn't identify the company butit can be used to send out to
buyers and then if buyers areinterested in the particular
company, they will sign an NDAand at that point they get the
SIM.
So, getting all of that kind ofput together and arranged as
phase one, getting everythingready to go.
Phase two is reaching out andtalking to prospective buyers,
(15:20):
which is obviously somethingthat the investment banker does
and we like to approach thatkind of like on a consultative
sales basis.
Ok, you reach out to the buyers,you really understand what the
buyer is looking for and then,if there is a fit with our
particular client, it's a veryeasy sale to kind of sell that
particular business to theprospective buyer.
It's a very easy sale to kind ofsell that particular business
to the prospective buyer Afterthey've had a couple of
(15:44):
conversations with us and seenthe, the SIM.
Generally, they also want totalk to the seller right and in
this day of zoom it's so mucheasier and most of the initial
conversations with a buyer and aseller are over zoom and
generally a, an entrepreneur,would have multiple
(16:06):
conversations with potentialbuyers and our goal in those
conversations is to keepmultiple buyers all kind of in
the same timing so that we cansolicit multiple offers from
multiple buyers.
And what generally a buyer putsforth is a letter of intent,
(16:28):
which is a term sheet which willoutline all of the specifics of
the transaction, includingeverything like rate, what is
the overall valuation, what arethe terms that they're going to
pay, how fast do they expect tobe able to close the transaction
and what role do they expectthe buyer to take on
post-closing.
Benno (16:51):
And in the LOI letter of intent are also some you know I
call them sort of emergency exitloopholes, where it's sort of
pending this outcome, we willpay X multiple Pending that
outcome.
You know we expect the terms tobe such and such.
But because after the LOI comesthe deep dive, the, what is the
(17:18):
word?
Due diligence?
Due diligence, that was a DDdeep dive, due diligence.
Sally Anne (17:24):
Yeah, yeah, right.
Benno (17:27):
Because then comes the due diligence, where the buyer,
the potential buyer, gets toreally, you know, sort of check
under the hood.
I mean more than kick the tires, yeah.
Sally Anne (17:41):
Yeah, yeah, no, I mean there's different
approaches to letters of intent.
Right, I want the letter ofintent to be very specific and
not leave any room for ambiguity, because one of the things that
a letter of intent usuallyincludes is something that's
called a no-shot provision.
That means that once you sign aletter of intent usually
(18:04):
includes is something that'scalled a no-shop provision.
That means that once you sign aletter of intent with one buyer
and you embark on this nextphase, which is the third phase
of getting to closing, you'rebasically going to tell all the
other buyers hey, we're under aletter of intent, we can't talk
to you anymore.
Benno (18:17):
It's exclusive dating before you get married.
Sally Anne (18:20):
Exactly.
Yes, it is.
Benno (18:22):
It is.
We're not going to date otherpeople, we're just checking each
other out.
Sally Anne (18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I mean from the seller'sperspective, you obviously have
a lot more leverage while thebuyer is wanting you to sign
that Right.
Right, but you know, once thatletter of intent does get signed
, you're right.
The next phase is kind of likethere's two things that are
happening simultaneously.
(18:49):
The buyer is doing a deep diveinto the company and if we have
done our upfront preparationwork properly and carefully,
most of the time that is justthe buyer confirming the things
that we have already told themare accurate and true right.
A buyer wants to know do youmake the money that you say you
(19:10):
make?
And they're going to obviouslycheck the financials.
And they want to know do youown the things that you say you
own right?
Is your factory in good workingorder?
Do you have intellectualproperty and all of the other
types of things that go intoadding to the value of the
business?
Benno (19:26):
And how confident are they in the five-year forecast?
Sally Anne (19:29):
Yeah.
Benno (19:30):
Which is really what they're buying, right?
Yeah, yeah, because a companyis not buying last year's P&L,
they're buying next year's P&L.
Sally Anne (19:37):
Exactly Five years from now.
P&l yeah you know five yearsfrom now you know, yeah, I mean,
but it brings up an interestingcomment, right, because you do
not want the buyer discoveringthings during due diligence that
are, you know, not ideal, right?
So every company has one or twothings right that they've done.
Maybe they skipped things hereor there, or some forms are not
(19:59):
properly filled out, or there'sa weakness or potential client
that might be problematic, orsomething, right?
Benno (20:05):
just like in dating.
Just like in dating, all of ushave like troublesome childhood
stories that come out, you know,not on the first date but
before marriage, hopefullyexactly.
Sally Anne (20:15):
Yes, no, that's really true.
But you you're better offgetting that up front, right?
You need to have thatconversation with your
prospective spouse before youget married, not like kind of
three weeks before the wedding.
Benno (20:27):
That's right.
Sally Anne (20:29):
So you definitely want to disclose anything like
that up front before the letterof intent is signed, because
otherwise you know some buyerswill use things like that that
come up in order to kind ofrenegotiate on a transaction
will use things like that thatcome up in order to kind of
renegotiate on a transaction.
Benno (20:49):
And it's interesting what you say about the letter of
intent, because I have beeninvolved in a multitude of
different M&A sales and you knowselling and buying side
situations and sometimes theletter of intent is more
loosey-goosey, like you know,kind of a fancy and you know
basically a fancy NDA, but whatyou're talking about is pretty
(21:13):
tight, airtight.
I'm supposing that you like tohave non-refundable deposits as
part of LOIs.
Sally Anne (21:25):
Actually, no, that is not with a larger transaction
.
I mean, if you're selling avery small business, I think you
know people do kind of wantdeposits, but with a large
company it is not typical toprovide a deposit.
Okay, it is not typical toprovide a deposit Okay, but I
(21:47):
mean we want to know that thebuyer has money right and that
is one of the most importantthings in terms of thinking
about who is a buyer and willthis buyer get to closing and
where is the money that they aregoing to use to fund this
transaction coming from, right,that they are going to use to
fund this transaction comingfrom?
You know, in the private equityworld there's two different
types of private equity firms.
(22:07):
One is a private equity firmthat has a fund that has already
gone out and raised money andhas it basically sitting in the
bank account.
The other type of privateequity firm is something that is
called an independent sponsor.
The other type of privateequity firm is something that is
called an independent sponsor.
Those private equity firms willgo out and raise money on a
(22:28):
deal-by-deal basis.
So if you're looking at twodifferent buyers, right,
obviously the PE firm with afund is more attractive than
somebody that comes to you andsays, hey, I love your business,
but I've got to go find somemoney, right, right, right,
(22:50):
let's talk a little bit aboutwhen a company is not ready.
Benno (22:52):
When you do the initial evaluation, you go through the
valuation and you come up with anumber that the seller says,
with a number that the sellersays, no, I was hoping to get
doubled or quintupled that right.
And you say, well, if you do X,y and Z, it could probably be
(23:12):
worth double or quintuple that.
But you think you have a prettybaby, but I think it's not
pretty enough to get five timeswhat.
Yeah, I think it's worth.
How do you help put?
How do you help, uh,prospective sellers get ready
for a sale?
Sally Anne (23:30):
that is that hits goals yeah, um, I mean, I think
one of the most important thingsis is helping entrepreneurs
understand what the drivers arethat go into valuation right,
because sometimes people come tous and they just don't know
what a reasonable valuation is.
But, as you said, a lot ofpeople you know find out what
(23:52):
the valuation is and it's notgoing to meet their goals, it's
not what they need or it doesn'tprovide a return for them that
they think is, you know, worththe time and the effort and the
tremendous amount of effortthey've put into building the
business.
So in that scenario, I mean,basically, the entrepreneur has
(24:13):
to increase sales or increaseprofitability.
Nine out of 10 times, right.
Sometimes there's something elsefor the business that needs to
be fixed, but the most important, the number one reason, is like
, hey, the EBITDA is not whereyou want it to be, given the
type of multiple that thiscompany is likely to get.
So what can you do to increasethe EBITDA?
(24:35):
And we have lots ofconversations with clients on
this and I know that's somethingkind of.
This is a, you know, an areathat you are definitely an
expert in, right In terms of howdo you drive sales, an area
that you are definitely anexpert in right In terms of how
do you drive sales and how doyou improve profitability, and I
would say that many of thebusinesses that come to us say
(25:00):
time and time again hey, wedon't have a strong sales team,
right, if, well, this businesscould be bigger, but we just
don't have the salespeople inplace.
And I think that's one keything that a lot of people take
away is like okay, you have tobolster up your sales team in
order to drive sales, in orderto drive profitability, in order
to be able to sell yourbusiness.
Benno (25:23):
So you bring in cats like my Sherpas right when we look
at.
You know this is the thirdgrowth option podcast and we
call it that because in my dayjob I run a company called
Realign that helps companiesgrow faster than internal
organic growth, less risky thanacquisition, by doing one of
(25:44):
these three things.
One we help companies add newadjacent product categories as
one way to.
You know, they're sellingapples but not oranges, so we
help them add new adjacentcategories to drive profitable
top line growth.
Or we help them access newchannels of distribution right,
they're selling in this type ofbrick and mortar store but not
(26:06):
that type.
Or online but not offline, orvice versa.
Or number three just fix thego-to-market, which comes back
to branding or product orculture or internal processes.
Sally Anne (26:22):
Obviously, it's a lot easier said than done, right
.
Benno (26:31):
That takes time.
All that gray hair Not so easyto do.
Sally Anne (26:34):
Yeah, no, it's not easy at all.
And you know what?
If it was easy, theentrepreneur would already have
done it Right.
It is challenging and it doestake time, and in some
circumstances people come backto us after a couple of years
and say, okay, we've moved theneedle now already.
And other times they come backand say we, you know now, we
(26:57):
know what the valuation is.
We tried, but we did not movethe needle.
And you know, can we still sella business?
Benno (27:05):
Give me a favorite success story.
You know, can we still sell thebusiness?
Give me a favorite successstory because I know that you've
been doing this for 16 yearsand you know there, I think the
reason we all do what we do,what gets us up in the morning,
is because, at the end of theday, we have these stories where
we really made a difference insomebody's life, right, I mean
(27:27):
yeah, yeah, like.
My favorite one is a $5 millioncompany is now doing 30 plus
million dollars and the ownercame to me two or three years
into.
Sally Anne (27:36):
It's like I don't.
Benno (27:37):
I've never worked this little and made this much money.
Sally Anne (27:40):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean I don't know that I have
a favorite transaction, right,because it is just like what you
said, right, the transactionsthat we work on, we are helping
somebody make a significantchange in their lives.
(28:01):
It's a big financial change anda big personal change change and
a big personal change and it'sreally kind of like it's an
amazing privilege for us to helpsomebody through that
transition and to know that wedid it well and to get to the
end point where somebody has,you know, received all this
money in their bank account andthey are retiring or they're
(28:24):
embarking on a new phase intheir business.
It's amazing and that is whatkind of like I appreciate.
And we have seen that a coupleof years ago we sold a business
that had been started by a veryyoung husband and wife and they
built the company over thecourse of four years, very
(28:45):
quickly, grew it and sold it fortens of millions of dollars and
they're set for the rest oftheir life, right.
Or we've worked with last yearwe sold a business that was a
couple that were in their 70sand they were selling their
business to retire and, you know, after the deal closed, they
(29:07):
worked for the buyer for, youknow, in a transition period.
But after that they went toIndia for a couple of months and
it's really kind of amazing tosee that and to know that we
played a part in that.
Benno (29:20):
And whether they flew first class or coach was
something that you could takecredit for right I hope it was
first class.
Sally Anne (29:28):
That's a long flight .
Um no, but that's kind of.
That's kind of like where wecome from.
Right it is we are, I mean, thefinance side and the marketing
side and and the working withattorneys and getting you know
things like reps and warranties.
All all of that is thetechnical side of getting these
(29:50):
deals closed, but the I don'tknow if emotional side is the
right word, but it is somebody'sbusiness that they have built
over 20, 30 years or sometimesless.
Benno (30:04):
But that to me is is I guess that's not a favorite
transaction, but that is myfavorite part of working and
doing this I completelyunderstand that how you think
about it and to me, just likeyou said at the very beginning,
(30:27):
you want to know, um, in theinitial evaluation, why do you
want to sell it right, not justhow much do you want to sell it
for?
And yeah, but why?
Your answer to my questionwhat's been your favorite
transaction having emotionallysatisfying elements?
And it is also sort of the whyyou know it's not just.
(30:51):
You know the most profitabletransaction was my favorite.
No, I mean like to me, thisclient that we still work with
nine, ten years into it.
Having said that to me, right,that?
I've never worked this little tomake this much, I thought, oh,
this is all worth it.
Sally Anne (31:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Benno (31:12):
Not my biggest client, not my biggest project, but that
was sort of you know.
I'll take that statement to thegrave.
Sally Anne (31:18):
Yeah, no, it's really, really important.
And yeah, it's nice to feelthat you have made a change in
people's lives.
I mean, the money is importantfor everybody, right?
Don't get me wrong.
Like there's never been aclient who said, oh, you know,
I'm more interested in thetransition than the money.
The money is super important,but to have both is really
(31:40):
amazing.
Benno (31:42):
Sally Ann, if folks wanted to reach out to you,
where is a good place to findyou?
If folks wanted to reach out toyou, where's a good place to
find you?
Maybe feel free to give youremail address or your website
address, or maybe people justreach out to you on LinkedIn.
Sally Anne (31:54):
however, Sure, no, all of the above.
I'm on LinkedIn, SallyannHughes.
My email is shughes athughesclivercom.
Or you can go to our websiteand send us a message through
the website, or you can call mycell, which is 917-568-4185 look
(32:16):
at you.
Benno (32:16):
Now it's out there in cyberspace your cell number
terrific.
Yeah, sallyann, this was a lotof fun.
By the way.
Uh, the hughesclivercom cliberis ai, not ei, is that?
Sally Anne (32:27):
yes, that's right.
Yep K-L-A-I-B-E-R Looking outfor you.
Benno (32:30):
Sally Ann, thank you.
All right, this was great.
Thank you so much for jumpingon this episode with me and look
forward to more conversations,and actually I have something
that I'm going to reach out toyou right after this.
Sally Anne (32:50):
Great.
Benno (32:51):
You and I are going to create some more content.
All right, thank you so much,everybody.
Sally Anne (32:57):
Thank you, benno, it's great.
Benno (33:02):
Thank you for listening to this episode of TGO Podcast.
For listening to this episodeof TGO podcast.
You can find all episodes onour podcast page at
wwwrealign4resultscom.
You can find me, Benno, host ofTGO podcast, there as well.
Just email Benno B-E-N-N-O atrealign4resultscom.
(33:24):
Let's keep growing.
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