January 1, 2024 • 17 mins
Ever felt torn between your faith and mainstream social beliefs? In this episode, I'm sharing the story of a woman who wrestled with guilt, doubt and the quest for self-acceptance. I'll also share the story of another woman who escaped a harmful cult, her path towards self-forgiveness, and the struggle to remain faithful amidst her traumatic experience. As we wade through these intricate matters, we strive to understand the nature of divine love, judgment, and our journey towards redemption. Join our soul-searching conversation as we navigate these profound aspects of our faith.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tilded Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And, men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:47):
There are times where there arepeople who get into what I would
call a conflict of faith, andI'm not talking about between
people.
These are things that happeninside of us, where there's a
conflict inside of us about ourfaith.
And do we believe this?
(01:08):
Do we not believe that?
Is it right to believesomething?
Is it not right to believesomething?
And sometimes that's driven bythings we hear other people talk
about, and some people saysomething that calls us to
question our faith as to thingsthat we've held to be true or
(01:36):
proper, and then find out thatsomebody else sees it a
different way, and so it callsus into a conflict of can we
believe this and still befaithful people?
And sometimes, I mean one ofthe issues would be something
(01:58):
like abortion, and there areothers as well, but that would
be one of the issues that.
Can we believe in God's love ifsomebody, especially for a
woman?
Can we believe in God's love ifand that you're a good person
(02:22):
if you've gone through anabortion?
I had an experience a number ofyears ago of talking with a
woman who had had an abortionand she was really struggling
with that.
Could she still believe thatGod loved her because she had
(02:46):
had that abortion?
Could she believe that shemaybe had made the right
decision at that point in timefor her?
And yet there were so manypeople around her who were
condemning the whole notion ofabortion, whether or not they
(03:06):
knew that she had had one, andshe felt condemned by them, even
if they didn't know if she hadhad an abortion.
They don't know if they did ornot, but she felt condemned and
that became a conflict of faithfor her.
Was she still someone who Godloved?
(03:28):
Was she still someone who couldeven be saved, if that's
language that you use and thatyou find important in your
relationship with God, and shestruggled with that.
To you know, what does thatmean?
(03:50):
Was she a murderer?
That's a big question to ask ofoneself.
Had she really so violatedanything and everything that God
wanted, that she was nowcondemned forever?
I had a conversation withanother woman at one point who
(04:18):
had been raised in a kind of acult that's the best word I can
think of for the situation thatshe described and it was not a
very loving kind of cult at all.
There were things that shewitnessed and experienced.
(04:39):
She didn't go into many details, but she witnessed an
experience that frightened herand she felt very much condemned
for having had been a part ofthat, even though she did not
actively participate in some ofthose practices that she felt
(05:02):
was very practices that she feltwere wrong or had been told
would condemn her to hell, andit created a conflict within her
.
Could God still love her?
Could she be a person who couldbe forgiven and find a new life
(05:28):
outside of that cult, which iswhat she wanted, but was that
even possible for her?
There are people around us whogo through these struggles and
we don't always know who theyare, that have these conflicts
of faith that you know.
(05:49):
Can I be someone who God loves?
Can I understand my faith in away that I can still be redeemed
or even have a possibility ofGod being a God of love, or is
(06:12):
this a God of anger and ofjudgment and of retribution?
And you know always wanting topunish people.
You know hellfire and brimstone.
I've had people kind of ingestat times saying to me hey,
(06:34):
preacher, give them hell Bye.
My response has always beenthat's not my department, that's
not my choice or my job to giveanybody help.
That's a hellfire, damnation.
That's not my job.
And part of it is because youknow telling people they're
(06:56):
going to hell doesn't usuallyturn them to loving God.
That's not.
You don't create love bytelling somebody they're going
to be damned if they don't.
That's not the relationshipthat God wants with people.
So how do we relate to thepeople who have these struggles,
(07:21):
have these questions?
Am I a good person because youfill in the blank?
Is that person a good personbecause I know he or she and
fill in the blank?
You know there are people whodo things that are very hurtful.
(07:44):
Yes, they do do those kinds ofthings and that can create a big
conflict of faith for them.
But it can also create aconflict of faith for me or my
family if it happened to be thevictims of those things that
people do.
(08:06):
I remember hearing a reading, Ishould say the story of somebody
in the Anheuser-Busch family,the Anheuser-Busch's big beer
manufacturers, and that therewas and I spent a long time
(08:28):
since I've read this, so I'mhoping I'm getting this somewhat
accurate at least that a memberof the family had died somehow
and at the hands of somebodyelse.
Could have been a drunk driver,it could have been a murder,
(08:49):
you know, I don't rememberexactly for sure how the death
occurred, but it was somethingthat was not self-inflicted, it
was not something that was inany way desired by other members
of the family.
And there was another.
(09:10):
There was a person who was seenas being responsible for the
death of this member of theAnheuser-Busch family and that
person was in prison.
A survivor might have been abrother or a son of this person
(09:33):
again, I don't remember thedetails relates the story of
going years with anger towardsthis person who was deemed
legally responsible for thedeath of their family member,
and realizing that the only onereally being held back by that
(10:01):
anger was himself, but alsorealizing that it was very
painful for him what hadhappened to this other family
member.
And it was painful because heknew that if it had not been for
the actions of this person whowas now in prison, his beloved
(10:26):
family member would still bealive, in all likelihood at
least.
And he tells of the accountthat at one point he went to the
prison to visit this inmate whowas there because of the death
(10:46):
that he had caused to a memberof the Anheuser-Busch family the
sibling, son, whatever.
Talked about meeting thisperson and then telling him and
(11:11):
seeing this man in prison as ahuman being for the first time
in his life and seeing him notas some horrible, terrible,
(11:31):
terrible person but as somebodywho had made a mistake and he
was there paying for it for manyyears, maybe the rest of his
life.
And the member of theAnhazib-Bush family left that
prison having forgiven thisinmate for what happened and
(11:55):
that was the first time he feltfree.
He had struggled with the angerand the pain and the resentment
and that conflict of faithwithin him about how he felt
about this person who had causedthe death of his family member
(12:18):
and yet, when he was able toforgive not to excuse what
happened, but to forgive itfreed himself.
Now there are many reasons thatcause that conflict of faith
within us, and sometimes thefirst step is in forgiving
(12:44):
ourselves.
I mentioned the woman who cameto me and talked about having
had an abortion.
That was a step for her.
I don't know if she was everable to do that and take that
step, but that would have beenthe first step for her in
resolving that conflict of faith.
(13:06):
Hearing, yes, that God lovedher anyway, that was an
important first step too.
But then forgiving herself andrealizing that the decision she
had made at that particularpoint in her life, when she had
(13:26):
that abortion, she made it forcertain reasons.
They may not have all been thebest of reasons, but she made it
for reasons that she believedwere the best at that time and
that God will understand thattoo.
So if you're struggling with aconflict of faith because of
(13:49):
some things you've said or doneor wished had happened to
somebody else, or the feelingsyou have about someone because
of something they've done tosomeone you love and care about,
realize that very first step isin knowing that God still loves
(14:11):
you and even when your halo isnot on so straight, and that God
invites each of us in thosemoments of conflict of faith, to
remember that God's primarypurpose is to love us and to
(14:32):
bring us into a lovingrelationship with God's own self
.
It's not to punish, it's not tocondemn, it's not to keep us
bound up by mistakes or issuesor things that we have done, or
to keep us bound up by thingsthat other people have done that
(14:56):
have hurt us or hurt our family.
That God's first step and ourfirst step in resolving that
conflict is bringing that to Godand then sharing that and
hearing God's love for us.
It may also be important tobring that information and that
(15:19):
experience to someone you trust.
It might be a pastor, priest,rabbi, imam someone you trust to
hear you and to receive youwith love and compassion, even
when you feel like maybe yourhalo is not just tilted but gone
, and believing that there's nopossibility of getting a new one
(15:43):
.
But there's always thatpossibility with God.
So there is no conflict offaith that God can't work with,
except the ones that we do notshare with God.
That's the only ones, and theonly reason is that we won't
share them and there's nopossibility of changing the
(16:09):
feelings and was holding ustrapped in that conflict until
we're willing and ready to sharethat, as hard as that may
sometimes feel, but it'spossible, because God wants us
to be free to live in lovingrelationship with God and with
other people.
(16:30):
So this is the tilted halosaying thank you, and if you're
somebody who has is experiencingthat kind of a conflict of
faith, please reach out.
Reach out to someone you trustto hear you in love.
If you can't find someone else,reach out to me.
The ways here through this thatyou can find me and to get in
(16:55):
touch with me.
My website isKathleenAPanningcom.
There's ways to get in touchwith me through that.
So, most of all, just know thatGod is there for you and with
you and wants you to know thattoo.
So until next time this is thetilted halo God's peace and
(17:17):
God's blessings to each of you.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments.
Be sure to like, subscribe andshare this episode and catch
another upcoming episode formore conversation on ministry,
life, mindset and a whole lotmore.
(17:39):
Go to wwwTiltedHaloHealthcom,where I've got a resource guide
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Tilded Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And, men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:47):
There are times where there arepeople who get into what I would
call a conflict of faith, andI'm not talking about between
people.
These are things that happeninside of us, where there's a
conflict inside of us about ourfaith.
And do we believe this?
(01:08):
Do we not believe that?
Is it right to believesomething?
Is it not right to believesomething?
And sometimes that's driven bythings we hear other people talk
about, and some people saysomething that calls us to
question our faith as to thingsthat we've held to be true or
(01:36):
proper, and then find out thatsomebody else sees it a
different way, and so it callsus into a conflict of can we
believe this and still befaithful people?
And sometimes, I mean one ofthe issues would be something
(01:58):
like abortion, and there areothers as well, but that would
be one of the issues that.
Can we believe in God's love ifsomebody, especially for a
woman?
Can we believe in God's love ifand that you're a good person
(02:22):
if you've gone through anabortion?
I had an experience a number ofyears ago of talking with a
woman who had had an abortionand she was really struggling
with that.
Could she still believe thatGod loved her because she had
(02:46):
had that abortion?
Could she believe that shemaybe had made the right
decision at that point in timefor her?
And yet there were so manypeople around her who were
condemning the whole notion ofabortion, whether or not they
(03:06):
knew that she had had one, andshe felt condemned by them, even
if they didn't know if she hadhad an abortion.
They don't know if they did ornot, but she felt condemned and
that became a conflict of faithfor her.
Was she still someone who Godloved?
(03:28):
Was she still someone who couldeven be saved, if that's
language that you use and thatyou find important in your
relationship with God, and shestruggled with that.
To you know, what does thatmean?
(03:50):
Was she a murderer?
That's a big question to ask ofoneself.
Had she really so violatedanything and everything that God
wanted, that she was nowcondemned forever?
I had a conversation withanother woman at one point who
(04:18):
had been raised in a kind of acult that's the best word I can
think of for the situation thatshe described and it was not a
very loving kind of cult at all.
There were things that shewitnessed and experienced.
(04:39):
She didn't go into many details, but she witnessed an
experience that frightened herand she felt very much condemned
for having had been a part ofthat, even though she did not
actively participate in some ofthose practices that she felt
(05:02):
was very practices that she feltwere wrong or had been told
would condemn her to hell, andit created a conflict within her
.
Could God still love her?
Could she be a person who couldbe forgiven and find a new life
(05:28):
outside of that cult, which iswhat she wanted, but was that
even possible for her?
There are people around us whogo through these struggles and
we don't always know who theyare, that have these conflicts
of faith that you know.
(05:49):
Can I be someone who God loves?
Can I understand my faith in away that I can still be redeemed
or even have a possibility ofGod being a God of love, or is
(06:12):
this a God of anger and ofjudgment and of retribution?
And you know always wanting topunish people.
You know hellfire and brimstone.
I've had people kind of ingestat times saying to me hey,
(06:34):
preacher, give them hell Bye.
My response has always beenthat's not my department, that's
not my choice or my job to giveanybody help.
That's a hellfire, damnation.
That's not my job.
And part of it is because youknow telling people they're
(06:56):
going to hell doesn't usuallyturn them to loving God.
That's not.
You don't create love bytelling somebody they're going
to be damned if they don't.
That's not the relationshipthat God wants with people.
So how do we relate to thepeople who have these struggles,
(07:21):
have these questions?
Am I a good person because youfill in the blank?
Is that person a good personbecause I know he or she and
fill in the blank?
You know there are people whodo things that are very hurtful.
(07:44):
Yes, they do do those kinds ofthings and that can create a big
conflict of faith for them.
But it can also create aconflict of faith for me or my
family if it happened to be thevictims of those things that
people do.
(08:06):
I remember hearing a reading, Ishould say the story of somebody
in the Anheuser-Busch family,the Anheuser-Busch's big beer
manufacturers, and that therewas and I spent a long time
(08:28):
since I've read this, so I'mhoping I'm getting this somewhat
accurate at least that a memberof the family had died somehow
and at the hands of somebodyelse.
Could have been a drunk driver,it could have been a murder,
(08:49):
you know, I don't rememberexactly for sure how the death
occurred, but it was somethingthat was not self-inflicted, it
was not something that was inany way desired by other members
of the family.
And there was another.
(09:10):
There was a person who was seenas being responsible for the
death of this member of theAnheuser-Busch family and that
person was in prison.
A survivor might have been abrother or a son of this person
(09:33):
again, I don't remember thedetails relates the story of
going years with anger towardsthis person who was deemed
legally responsible for thedeath of their family member,
and realizing that the only onereally being held back by that
(10:01):
anger was himself, but alsorealizing that it was very
painful for him what hadhappened to this other family
member.
And it was painful because heknew that if it had not been for
the actions of this person whowas now in prison, his beloved
(10:26):
family member would still bealive, in all likelihood at
least.
And he tells of the accountthat at one point he went to the
prison to visit this inmate whowas there because of the death
(10:46):
that he had caused to a memberof the Anheuser-Busch family the
sibling, son, whatever.
Talked about meeting thisperson and then telling him and
(11:11):
seeing this man in prison as ahuman being for the first time
in his life and seeing him notas some horrible, terrible,
(11:31):
terrible person but as somebodywho had made a mistake and he
was there paying for it for manyyears, maybe the rest of his
life.
And the member of theAnhazib-Bush family left that
prison having forgiven thisinmate for what happened and
(11:55):
that was the first time he feltfree.
He had struggled with the angerand the pain and the resentment
and that conflict of faithwithin him about how he felt
about this person who had causedthe death of his family member
(12:18):
and yet, when he was able toforgive not to excuse what
happened, but to forgive itfreed himself.
Now there are many reasons thatcause that conflict of faith
within us, and sometimes thefirst step is in forgiving
(12:44):
ourselves.
I mentioned the woman who cameto me and talked about having
had an abortion.
That was a step for her.
I don't know if she was everable to do that and take that
step, but that would have beenthe first step for her in
resolving that conflict of faith.
(13:06):
Hearing, yes, that God lovedher anyway, that was an
important first step too.
But then forgiving herself andrealizing that the decision she
had made at that particularpoint in her life, when she had
(13:26):
that abortion, she made it forcertain reasons.
They may not have all been thebest of reasons, but she made it
for reasons that she believedwere the best at that time and
that God will understand thattoo.
So if you're struggling with aconflict of faith because of
(13:49):
some things you've said or doneor wished had happened to
somebody else, or the feelingsyou have about someone because
of something they've done tosomeone you love and care about,
realize that very first step isin knowing that God still loves
(14:11):
you and even when your halo isnot on so straight, and that God
invites each of us in thosemoments of conflict of faith, to
remember that God's primarypurpose is to love us and to
(14:32):
bring us into a lovingrelationship with God's own self
.
It's not to punish, it's not tocondemn, it's not to keep us
bound up by mistakes or issuesor things that we have done, or
to keep us bound up by thingsthat other people have done that
(14:56):
have hurt us or hurt our family.
That God's first step and ourfirst step in resolving that
conflict is bringing that to Godand then sharing that and
hearing God's love for us.
It may also be important tobring that information and that
(15:19):
experience to someone you trust.
It might be a pastor, priest,rabbi, imam someone you trust to
hear you and to receive youwith love and compassion, even
when you feel like maybe yourhalo is not just tilted but gone
, and believing that there's nopossibility of getting a new one
(15:43):
.
But there's always thatpossibility with God.
So there is no conflict offaith that God can't work with,
except the ones that we do notshare with God.
That's the only ones, and theonly reason is that we won't
share them and there's nopossibility of changing the
(16:09):
feelings and was holding ustrapped in that conflict until
we're willing and ready to sharethat, as hard as that may
sometimes feel, but it'spossible, because God wants us
to be free to live in lovingrelationship with God and with
other people.
(16:30):
So this is the tilted halosaying thank you, and if you're
somebody who has is experiencingthat kind of a conflict of
faith, please reach out.
Reach out to someone you trustto hear you in love.
If you can't find someone else,reach out to me.
The ways here through this thatyou can find me and to get in
(16:55):
touch with me.
My website isKathleenAPanningcom.
There's ways to get in touchwith me through that.
So, most of all, just know thatGod is there for you and with
you and wants you to know thattoo.
So until next time this is thetilted halo God's peace and
(17:17):
God's blessings to each of you.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments.
Be sure to like, subscribe andshare this episode and catch
another upcoming episode formore conversation on ministry,
life, mindset and a whole lotmore.
(17:39):
Go to wwwTiltedHaloHealthcom,where I've got a resource guide
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
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