January 29, 2024 • 31 mins
In this episode I chat with Matt Hug, the master of volunteer recruitment and management, and we share the secrets to transforming your nonprofit's volunteer force. Get rid of those ideas of volunteer callouts, we're headed straight to the power of personal, one-on-one recruitment strategies. Volunteering's personal gains, from skill building to spiritual fulfillment, are often masked by the notion of selfless service. Together with Matt and I, will shed light on how these personal rewards are the actual fuel for long-term service and satisfaction.
It's not about the transactions, it's about the stories. Our conversation will also touch on the art of story sharing in donor engagements, where there is great effect in connecting with people on an emotional level, far beyond the balance sheets. Take these insights for your nonprofit or ministry and join the conversation for even more growth and learning opportunities.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tilded Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, You're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:47):
Welcome to another edition ofTilded Halo and glad that you're
here.
And I have a surprise because Ihave a guest today, One of the
few times I have done that, andI am delighted to welcome to the
show today Matt Hug.
And Matt has done a lot ofthings with nonprofits and I'm
(01:09):
going to let him share a littlebit more with you about that,
about his very extensive resumewith that.
But you know the many differentkinds of things you've done,
Matt.
And I mean this show is aboutall of us as people who often
work with nonprofits, either asleaders in a nonprofit or as
(01:30):
members of a nonprofit, a faithcommunity.
So please tell us a little bitabout your background.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, happy to.
So I spent a lot of time infundraising, have a degree in
fundraising and about gosh.
In the early 2000s I starteddoing consulting for other for
organizations out in the world,particularly around here in
Philadelphia, and I startedteaching with my master's degree
(02:00):
and some of the experience Ihad and a nice connection
through networking, which issomething you do when you're
doing this.
I started teaching at EasternUniversity, which is Baptist
University here in suburbanPhiladelphia, and I was teaching
in the nonprofit managementprogram and they had me a bunch
(02:20):
of places around the world acouple of African countries,
southeast Asia and Europe and afew places here in the US and I
was finding that people reallyturned on the video.
You know, I could give them apaper, I could give them a video
and I would get more feedbackon the video.
And I made some of my own videosfor class.
I was making a playlist forthem off of YouTube and I found
(02:46):
that, but kind of by accident,that nonprofit dot courses was a
new website available that Ibought, got the domain name and
started putting some content onthere.
Now I have 10,000 videosactually connect out to people's
videos, about 200, somecontributors to the website of
(03:10):
all different things nonprofitfrom things that everybody uses,
including nonprofit like HR andhow to make presentations, and
all to very specific thingsabout nonprofits like how to
volunteer, management,accounting, fundraising, things
like that.
So, yeah, nonprofit dot coursesis what I do most of my time.
(03:32):
I still do some writing andthings, but yeah, that's kind of
it.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, and you know we're going to talk about some
of those kinds of things thatyou have found and some of the
tips and tricks that you havefound along the way, and one of
them I want to start with thewhole big, important topic of
(03:58):
volunteers, because there is nononprofit on this planet that
can have enough staff to doeverything.
It just doesn't work, and so weall need volunteers, whether
it's a secular organization,environmental or a faith
(04:22):
community.
We need volunteers, and infaith communities, the
volunteers most 99% of them aremembers of that faith community,
and so you have kind of adouble edged reality with that,
and it'd be interesting ifthere's anything that you found
(04:44):
about that part of it that makesfor something, some important
things.
But let's just talk general tobegin with.
What are recruiting volunteersis where that starts.
So how do you, what are somethings to let people know about
recruiting volunteers?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, maybe the first thing to know is what not to do
.
But we all do it, we've allbeen there.
So, which is standing up infront of a group whether you're
standing on the pulpit or you're, you know, in a committee right
, and saying, hey, who wants tovolunteer for?
And expecting that people aregoing to raise their hand and
(05:26):
that you're going to have somany people to do this right?
And, yeah, you know, the thingis that it seems so efficient
and you know, theoretically itis right, you're gonna do this
right, but it's it kind of getsthe human nature.
Humans are not good withanything more than ones and
zeros.
I think it's probably why wecan invented computers that way.
(05:47):
Right, one, zero, one, zero isthat, you know us with all of
those people doesn't work well.
And so what you'll see, whatyou know traditionally.
You find that that Image of youknow who wants to volunteer and
all these people step back andthe one person forgot.
You know it's there and he'sgonna be the volunteer, right,
(06:08):
but you start seeing people puttheir eyes down and they
literally sit on their hands orwhatever, or hold the person you
know maybe their spouse next tothem say no, no, no, put your
hand so.
So that's not what to do.
The really important thing to dois to make it a one-to-one kind
of recruitment.
(06:28):
But it's also important not tobe to do two things, not to be
overwhelming right.
So you have to help somebodyunderstand unless you have a
really well establishedrelationship with somebody, that
it's going to be a discretetask, something that you can
draw a circle around, that theycan accomplish and Finish and
(06:53):
they will feel good about thatand you will feel good about
them having done that right.
And then, with that is atimeframe, because especially
nowadays, folks don't want toget into this Undying commitment
.
I mean, think about what itdoes to if you, if you have
somebody out there, a group ofpeople who are always
volunteering in that, whateveryou know you're running an event
(07:14):
or you're on or whatever it isright, they become that click
who always does that?
And You're doing two things.
First of all, you're excludingother people from participating
in that.
You're also not bringing in newideas and you know when that
click kind of ages out right orwhatever.
(07:35):
Now you're stuck at zero againand so it's.
It's important to havevolunteers kind of come in and
out, have, I don't know terms ofservice or something to end so
that you can rotate folksthrough and get new people
engaged.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, I like what you said about being being
individual in the ask, askingindividuals and then being
specific about the task but alsothe timeframe.
My mentor here, tiffany Largy,has talked about usher land Is
(08:16):
the term she uses and it's theidea that if you volunteer to be
an usher, once you are in itfor the rest of your life and it
becomes like a lifetimecommitment.
But he could still ask somebodyto usher and say can you do it
for this right or or can you doit at Specifics, even just one
(08:42):
particular service, that we needextra usher for A Christmas Eve
service or something you know?
Whatever it is to be Specificabout the ask and not have it be
an open-ended.
Who can you be the head of theushers for now and into eternity
(09:02):
?
No, we're not gonna volunteerfor that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, well, you know, people don't some people want
to do something they.
They love having that stabilityand a predictability.
Now the question is do you wantthat Right?
Because at some point thingsaren't going to change and
they've gotten into a routine.
They're always going to do itthat way.
And there's a whole other issueabout we always do it that way.
But yeah, it's good.
(09:28):
It's good for the health of theorganization overall that to
have this kind of turnover.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point,
because I've been in situationswhere I mean there's this, this
little group of people who areused to running the church
school program or the ushers orwhatever, and they do become a
click and Getting and somebodynew may come into the
(09:57):
congregation and they may bewilling to do it, but feel Like
they're not wanted and notwelcome because it's always the
same old, same old people andthey aren't Really willing to
ask new people and let them in,because sometimes new people
bring new ideas.
I know and oh Can threaten theway things were.
(10:20):
In fact there was a A play, amusical not too long ago called
the church basement ladies andit was about the, the women of a
Mythical Lutheran church, andhow they, the older women,
controlled how everything wasdone for preparing meals and he
(10:43):
had a couple of younger womencoming in and how they didn't
always feel welcome.
And that doesn't be a play, butactually my wife has experienced
that in a church situation,yeah, and so yeah it, it was
built off the, the reality ofmany people's experience, and
(11:03):
there were some really funnythings in the, in the play, but
and there was a second versionof it, a second helping of the
same thing, but it.
It was funny because it was sotrue.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, it wasfunny because of that.
Um, so what else aboutvolunteers?
Uh, you talk about it's um,yeah, how do we think about the
(11:30):
volunteers in relation to theministry or the mission of the
organization?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, uh, I mean, one of the things I really
encourage folks to do is tobuild what I call a volunteer
covenant.
Now, it's not necessarily avolunteer job description.
It's actually that and more,because often what happens is
you know when ideally everyvolunteer should have something
(11:57):
written down that says here'swhat you should do right Now.
We know that doesn't happen allthe time and people kind of
make it up along the way, whichis a problem in itself, right.
But if you have some kind ofjob description, that's great,
but that's only half the job,the half the task there for you.
What also has to happen is whatis the volunteer getting out of
(12:20):
it?
Because that's huge.
We think of it as anorganization of what can the
volunteer do for us and makessense?
Right, because you're puttingthe needs of the organization
right out front there.
Right, you need somebody in thenursery, you need a nutcher,
you need somebody to set up theyou know, the communion service,
(12:40):
whatever.
It is right and that's great.
But what is the volunteergetting out of it?
Can you enumerate that?
Can you go say this is you knowwhat you might get out of doing
this job?
People want to volunteer, butthey also have their own
interests, and it's not a badthing, right?
(13:01):
Maybe they want to experiencesome growth.
It's something they've neverdone.
They've never read from theBible in front of the
congregation, and this could bea real growth opportunity for
them.
Right, and so you can describe.
You know, this will give you achance to hone your reading
skills and to work with otherpeople.
And you know, pick theselection, however that works in
(13:25):
your congregation.
Right, but making that covenant, that back and forth, is really
important Because it makes itfeel like, wow, these people
appreciate me, I could getsomething out of this and you
know really what.
They're probably going to domore for you, because they feel
(13:47):
like it's a two-way streetinstead of just a one-way.
Here I am.
I got to volunteer again, right, and it becomes less of a
burden.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You mentioned a word that always gets my ears pricked
up these days, and it's theword appreciate, and to me that
is so critical for working withvolunteers or working with
anybody really.
But especially with volunteers,is having letting them know how
(14:21):
much you know if I'm the faithleader or the elected leader of
congregation, how much Iappreciate, instead of taking
them for granted, which all toooften volunteers feel like
they're taken for granted.
But you know, showing thatappreciation and not just saying
thank you once a year at theend of the year or something
(14:44):
like that, but doing somespecific things to show that
appreciation doesn't have to bemonetary, it can be other kinds
of appreciation.
Well, you know you've whatwould you share with us.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You tripped a few synapses here.
For me, I don't like to say so.
One of the things is that youdon't.
You know there's a guy, danielPink, who wrote this book called
Drive, and he talks aboutautonomy, mastery, purpose,
right, and now it's Essentiallyit's a book about motivating
(15:18):
people in the workplace Right,but it works totally with
volunteers as well.
Where people want to haveautonomy, they want to feel like
they're intelligent and you'retrusting them with something and
they can go ahead and do it.
Yeah, and in a nonprofit, in achurch situation, you can't
afford to micromanage people.
You just don't have that kindof time, right.
(15:40):
So that's really important.
Mastery is all about themunderstanding, learning what
they're doing right, it's agrowth experience for them.
So that's really important.
But the key one is purpose.
Nonprofits, own purpose.
You know, if you work for awidget company, they have to
(16:03):
invent purpose.
You already got purpose.
So connect whatever you'redoing.
Even if you have somebody doingyour books, right, as a
volunteer, show them what theiraccounting is making happen.
Those kids are getting VBS,those you know this congregation
(16:24):
, those older people are gettingvisited.
You know there's a mission tripgoing someplace, right, get
them engaged at a point wherethey can see what's happening on
the ground.
That's hugely motivating,especially when the volunteer
opportunity is disconnected fromthe actual doing of the mission
(16:45):
of your organization.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a huge part of showing
the appreciation, yes, isknowing that they have a purpose
there and it's not just busywork, no, exactly, it's not just
well, pastor doesn't have time,well, and one of the things
(17:09):
that Pink brings up and anotherguy named Casser.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There's a book called the High Price of Materialism,
which is really cool.
I used to use it in my teachingand they talk about the fact
that you don't have to givemoney to motivate.
It's fascinating.
Now, of course, in this churchsituation, you're probably not
going to be doing that anyhow,right?
But the people who getmotivated get episodic
(17:34):
recognition and gifts orsomething.
So it's not like this thing.
You know, ozzly, I have neverbeen to a volunteer appreciation
lunch and dinner or whateverright that people show up to in
droves.
It just doesn't happen, right?
But back to that one-to-onerelationship where do something
(17:55):
special for somebody because youknow them and you know they
would appreciate that.
That's huge.
Yeah, that really motivatespeople, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, so there's so much.
We could probably do the wholeshow on just volunteers, and
that would be a bad thing.
But I also would like to talk alittle bit about you know.
Sometimes we start kind of withan idea for a ministry of some
(18:27):
sort and there are ways to spinthat off to a nonprofit, and so
if you would share a little bitabout that because I do want to
get to one other point yet whichhas to do with dollars and
cents as well, but talk a littlebit about you know just some of
(18:49):
the key things to think aboutfor spinning off to a nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, it's important to look at.
When you do something like that, you're going to gain some
things, you're going to losesome things.
One of the things you knowyou're you're gaining is
actually the lack of liabilityfor whatever the organization is
doing.
A lot of times churches willhave things under their umbrella
(19:13):
that you know might be kind ofrisky one way or another, and by
spinning them off, you arehaving them stand independently
and that risk can move to anorganization that, if something
goes wrong, it's not going tohave an impact on on you.
So so that's, that's number one.
(19:35):
The other things I'd say is thatyou're going to start to, you
would hope, bring in people tothat ministry that are not
necessarily connected to yourcongregation, and, and it can be
a real advantage Look okay, soyears gone by, my son was in
scouting.
I spent a lot of time inscouting when I was a kid, as a
(19:56):
leader and even as aprofessional for a while, right,
and churches would sponsor BoyScout troops, and yet it was.
You could organize this so thatit might be separate and that's
kind of the the.
There's liability issues thatgo with the troop, right, but
you're bringing in people whomight come in for never enter
(20:18):
your church otherwise and kindof as a door opener into it.
But it's separate enough thatthey don't feel like they're
going to your church, at leastnot ostensibly.
Might be physically going there, right, and so that that's a
way of bringing people in, so itexposes people to your.
(20:39):
I'm sorry, go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, I was thinking that there are some
congregations that start a likea preschool program or something
like that and for the community, depending upon where they live
and where the actual facilityis located, and that can be a
wonderful way of introducingparents with young children to
(21:06):
your congregation, not requiringthat they be members, but
sometimes they do join becauseof the nature that their kids
are there and they get familiarwith the people and things like
that.
So it can be a way not only ofletting people know about your
congregation but actuallygrowing the congregation.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, no, I've seen that happen.
Actually, couples church havebeen involved with head
preschools where that reallymakes a big difference.
I'll tell you the biggest thein my mind, the, the arch
typical example, the supersuccessful example, almost to
the point, where actually theykind of forgot.
The organization that spun off,forgot its roots, was Heifer
International.
(21:49):
Heifer actually started as achurch of the brethren ministry
and you see, that's new to youdidn't know that and it started
there and then they spun thatoff and it became so much more
and they don't necessarilyconnect back to the church of
(22:09):
the brethren.
By the way, listeners, if youhave a child and they want to
learn more about Heifer, grab abook called Faith the Cow.
It's a really cool introductionto that organization.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So, yeah, the it also .
It has a two edge sword, though, when it comes to funding, and
that is now.
This organization can go getits own funding, and that might
be part of the purpose to takeit off your budget, right.
However, some of that fundingmight come back from the people
(22:45):
who are in your congregation, soyou have set up a competitor,
too.
They can go out and fund theirorganization from outsiders, but
there are going to be people inyour congregation who feel
strongly about that ministry,whether it's part of it or
independent, and they willcontinue to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Right, good point, good point.
But that brings me to the othertopic I at least want to talk
about, and that is funding.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Ah-ha, done, done, done.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, small topic, yeah, again, we could be
a whole, a whole episode on that.
And raising funds, yes, and Ilike one thing you shared with
me as a reminder that funders,the people who provide the funds
(23:36):
, are not at 8 pm.
Oh yeah, and sometimes, youknow, we keep asking and asking
and asking over and over andover for more and more and more,
and there aren't limits.
We all have a budget, we allhave life and responsibilities.
So what are some other ways,some other ideas, some dos and
(23:58):
don'ts, tips and tricks,whatever you want to call them,
to generating revenue for afaith community?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well.
So it's important to remember,first of all, that you're right,
they're not ATMs.
You don't.
And particularly I teach acourse in grant writing, right,
and a lot of folks, oh, justsend in the papers, get money,
right, it doesn't work that way.
It's not like you put your cardin or anything.
However, if people arepassionate about your mission,
whatever it is you're doing,they will find their resources
(24:29):
to help you.
When somebody says I can'tafford something, that has
twofold meaning.
Right, one is they don't havethe money, and that's what
they're implying, but really,more times than not, it is that
this is not a priority for me,so they don't make room in their
budget.
And yeah, there is a limit foreverybody.
(24:50):
But if somebody doesn't likeyou or fails, they'll give you
$10 that they love you, theymight give you $10,000, even
though you only expect they havethe capacity to do $1,000 for
you.
They might figure that outsomehow, maybe in their will,
maybe some plan giving means orsomething.
But it's important that youthink of all philanthropy, all
(25:14):
giving, as a one-to-one kind ofproposition.
And especially, I made upsomething years ago from my
classes that I call the formulafor fundraising.
And so people say, gee, what isthe magic formula?
Well, it's not magic, it'sactually kind of math or it
looks math-like.
I say it's one-to-one slashfour-one.
(25:37):
So if you write it downone-to-one slash four-one, which
means one-to-one me to you,kathleen, back and forth for
that person whom we are helpingand our mission helps.
So you bring the resources, Ibring the program.
Now we're kind of on an equalbasis on this right, because
(26:00):
we're both bringing something tothe table for the purpose of
helping that person for whichour mission serves.
And it really takes the edgeoff for a lot of people because
they're like wow, I'm notbegging, I'm partnering with
somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, and I think that's really important to
remember because many faithcommunities it's funding for the
budget and for the day-to-daythings and nobody really gets
excited about, you know, keepingthe lights on.
I mean, yeah, we want to havethe lights on for services and
(26:39):
things like that, but you knowwho gets excited about that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, exactly, it's what the lights do Right and who
and it's always important toput it down to a person who are
the lights benefiting, so thatyou know sanctuary, those lights
are on, those kids are gettingwhatever you know the children's
(27:05):
sermon out of it, or the peoplein the pews are getting
something out of it.
Or downstairs, like you talkedabout, the folks in the kitchen
are doing.
You know everybody's gettingsomething out of that.
So focus on the people we'reserving Right.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, and that's something that it's too easy to
forget.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Especially when that bill comes Right here's like oh,
I need to pay this right.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, so that's you know, especially as a faith
community thinks about itsbudget, planning, time and
whatever.
You know, how can we word thesethings and I think that's where
many other kinds of nonprofitsdo a much better job than most
(27:52):
faith communities do as to howto tell the story as a story,
and to what?
Who are we?
Because sometimes I find thatfaith communities forget who
they are and why they're reallythere.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Let me give you a way to get your head around this.
I find helpful.
My students, okay, if you're ofa certain age, and even, I find
that, people who aren't of acertain age, because the reruns
are out, we all know the BradyBunch, right, and you see in the
beginning, the first lines ofthe Brady Bunch, you see the
grid right Of here's mom and dadand the kids and they're all
(28:32):
kind of pictured out there,right, but what do they say?
They don't talk about numbers,they don't talk about all of the
.
You know.
You could say, okay, here arethe data points and we have so
many kids and we have twoparents and we have a
housekeeper, and we do this andwe do that, we live here, right,
and you can point, point, point, point, point.
No they start out with it's astory.
That's the first lines of thatsong when they show that grid.
(28:55):
So they're not talking aboutall of those, the things that
people don't relate to.
They connect those things to astory.
That's what our fundraisingneeds to be out of, because
humans learn by stories.
We may have become really goodat data or not, maybe sometimes
(29:18):
but we learn by stories, and soto get somebody engaged in a
story about what you're doing isreally important.
And again back to one-to-one Me, to you just talking.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And unfortunately, I see too many congregations that
have forgotten their story, andthat's something that I like to
work with them on andre-energizing that story.
But I want to say thank you somuch, matt.
Hopefully maybe we can do thisagain and go a little deeper on
(29:53):
some things, because I knowthere's so much more to talk
about than we had time for.
So, but we can't go on for sixhours.
Well, we could go on for sixhours.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Our audience may not.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, we could go on for six hours with this, but
thank you so very, very much.
And, matt, let them know wherethey can get a hold of you for
more and for that website nameagain for all of these wonderful
courses.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, actually the best way to get a hold of me is
to go to nonprofitcourses,notcom, ororg butcourses, and
just click on the contact buttonthere.
That'll bring up a little form.
You can fill it out and thatsends an email right to my inbox
almost instantaneously, and I'mhappy to connect with folks who
(30:41):
send me notes.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Thank you, matt, and thank all of you who have been
listening and being here todaywith Matt and me, and come back
again for another episode of theTilted Halo.
We'll be back again.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
(31:06):
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments, be sureto like, subscribe and share
this episode and catch anotherupcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry, life, mindset and a
whole lot more, go towwwtiltedhalohelpcom, where I've
got a resource guide and otherresources waiting for you, and
(31:30):
be sure to say hi to me,kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
See you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Tilded Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, You're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:47):
Welcome to another edition ofTilded Halo and glad that you're
here.
And I have a surprise because Ihave a guest today, One of the
few times I have done that, andI am delighted to welcome to the
show today Matt Hug.
And Matt has done a lot ofthings with nonprofits and I'm
(01:09):
going to let him share a littlebit more with you about that,
about his very extensive resumewith that.
But you know the many differentkinds of things you've done,
Matt.
And I mean this show is aboutall of us as people who often
work with nonprofits, either asleaders in a nonprofit or as
(01:30):
members of a nonprofit, a faithcommunity.
So please tell us a little bitabout your background.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, happy to.
So I spent a lot of time infundraising, have a degree in
fundraising and about gosh.
In the early 2000s I starteddoing consulting for other for
organizations out in the world,particularly around here in
Philadelphia, and I startedteaching with my master's degree
(02:00):
and some of the experience Ihad and a nice connection
through networking, which issomething you do when you're
doing this.
I started teaching at EasternUniversity, which is Baptist
University here in suburbanPhiladelphia, and I was teaching
in the nonprofit managementprogram and they had me a bunch
(02:20):
of places around the world acouple of African countries,
southeast Asia and Europe and afew places here in the US and I
was finding that people reallyturned on the video.
You know, I could give them apaper, I could give them a video
and I would get more feedbackon the video.
And I made some of my own videosfor class.
I was making a playlist forthem off of YouTube and I found
(02:46):
that, but kind of by accident,that nonprofit dot courses was a
new website available that Ibought, got the domain name and
started putting some content onthere.
Now I have 10,000 videosactually connect out to people's
videos, about 200, somecontributors to the website of
(03:10):
all different things nonprofitfrom things that everybody uses,
including nonprofit like HR andhow to make presentations, and
all to very specific thingsabout nonprofits like how to
volunteer, management,accounting, fundraising, things
like that.
So, yeah, nonprofit dot coursesis what I do most of my time.
(03:32):
I still do some writing andthings, but yeah, that's kind of
it.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, and you know we're going to talk about some
of those kinds of things thatyou have found and some of the
tips and tricks that you havefound along the way, and one of
them I want to start with thewhole big, important topic of
(03:58):
volunteers, because there is nononprofit on this planet that
can have enough staff to doeverything.
It just doesn't work, and so weall need volunteers, whether
it's a secular organization,environmental or a faith
(04:22):
community.
We need volunteers, and infaith communities, the
volunteers most 99% of them aremembers of that faith community,
and so you have kind of adouble edged reality with that,
and it'd be interesting ifthere's anything that you found
(04:44):
about that part of it that makesfor something, some important
things.
But let's just talk general tobegin with.
What are recruiting volunteersis where that starts.
So how do you, what are somethings to let people know about
recruiting volunteers?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, maybe the first thing to know is what not to do
.
But we all do it, we've allbeen there.
So, which is standing up infront of a group whether you're
standing on the pulpit or you're, you know, in a committee right
, and saying, hey, who wants tovolunteer for?
And expecting that people aregoing to raise their hand and
(05:26):
that you're going to have somany people to do this right?
And, yeah, you know, the thingis that it seems so efficient
and you know, theoretically itis right, you're gonna do this
right, but it's it kind of getsthe human nature.
Humans are not good withanything more than ones and
zeros.
I think it's probably why wecan invented computers that way.
(05:47):
Right, one, zero, one, zero isthat, you know us with all of
those people doesn't work well.
And so what you'll see, whatyou know traditionally.
You find that that Image of youknow who wants to volunteer and
all these people step back andthe one person forgot.
You know it's there and he'sgonna be the volunteer, right,
(06:08):
but you start seeing people puttheir eyes down and they
literally sit on their hands orwhatever, or hold the person you
know maybe their spouse next tothem say no, no, no, put your
hand so.
So that's not what to do.
The really important thing to dois to make it a one-to-one kind
of recruitment.
(06:28):
But it's also important not tobe to do two things, not to be
overwhelming right.
So you have to help somebodyunderstand unless you have a
really well establishedrelationship with somebody, that
it's going to be a discretetask, something that you can
draw a circle around, that theycan accomplish and Finish and
(06:53):
they will feel good about thatand you will feel good about
them having done that right.
And then, with that is atimeframe, because especially
nowadays, folks don't want toget into this Undying commitment
.
I mean, think about what itdoes to if you, if you have
somebody out there, a group ofpeople who are always
volunteering in that, whateveryou know you're running an event
(07:14):
or you're on or whatever it isright, they become that click
who always does that?
And You're doing two things.
First of all, you're excludingother people from participating
in that.
You're also not bringing in newideas and you know when that
click kind of ages out right orwhatever.
(07:35):
Now you're stuck at zero againand so it's.
It's important to havevolunteers kind of come in and
out, have, I don't know terms ofservice or something to end so
that you can rotate folksthrough and get new people
engaged.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, yeah, I like what you said about being being
individual in the ask, askingindividuals and then being
specific about the task but alsothe timeframe.
My mentor here, tiffany Largy,has talked about usher land Is
(08:16):
the term she uses and it's theidea that if you volunteer to be
an usher, once you are in itfor the rest of your life and it
becomes like a lifetimecommitment.
But he could still ask somebodyto usher and say can you do it
for this right or or can you doit at Specifics, even just one
(08:42):
particular service, that we needextra usher for A Christmas Eve
service or something you know?
Whatever it is to be Specificabout the ask and not have it be
an open-ended.
Who can you be the head of theushers for now and into eternity
(09:02):
?
No, we're not gonna volunteerfor that.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, well, you know, people don't some people want
to do something they.
They love having that stabilityand a predictability.
Now the question is do you wantthat Right?
Because at some point thingsaren't going to change and
they've gotten into a routine.
They're always going to do itthat way.
And there's a whole other issueabout we always do it that way.
But yeah, it's good.
(09:28):
It's good for the health of theorganization overall that to
have this kind of turnover.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a really good point,
because I've been in situationswhere I mean there's this, this
little group of people who areused to running the church
school program or the ushers orwhatever, and they do become a
click and Getting and somebodynew may come into the
(09:57):
congregation and they may bewilling to do it, but feel Like
they're not wanted and notwelcome because it's always the
same old, same old people andthey aren't Really willing to
ask new people and let them in,because sometimes new people
bring new ideas.
I know and oh Can threaten theway things were.
(10:20):
In fact there was a A play, amusical not too long ago called
the church basement ladies andit was about the, the women of a
Mythical Lutheran church, andhow they, the older women,
controlled how everything wasdone for preparing meals and he
(10:43):
had a couple of younger womencoming in and how they didn't
always feel welcome.
And that doesn't be a play, butactually my wife has experienced
that in a church situation,yeah, and so yeah it, it was
built off the, the reality ofmany people's experience, and
(11:03):
there were some really funnythings in the, in the play, but
and there was a second versionof it, a second helping of the
same thing, but it.
It was funny because it was sotrue.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, it wasfunny because of that.
Um, so what else aboutvolunteers?
Uh, you talk about it's um,yeah, how do we think about the
(11:30):
volunteers in relation to theministry or the mission of the
organization?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah, uh, I mean, one of the things I really
encourage folks to do is tobuild what I call a volunteer
covenant.
Now, it's not necessarily avolunteer job description.
It's actually that and more,because often what happens is
you know when ideally everyvolunteer should have something
(11:57):
written down that says here'swhat you should do right Now.
We know that doesn't happen allthe time and people kind of
make it up along the way, whichis a problem in itself, right.
But if you have some kind ofjob description, that's great,
but that's only half the job,the half the task there for you.
What also has to happen is whatis the volunteer getting out of
(12:20):
it?
Because that's huge.
We think of it as anorganization of what can the
volunteer do for us and makessense?
Right, because you're puttingthe needs of the organization
right out front there.
Right, you need somebody in thenursery, you need a nutcher,
you need somebody to set up theyou know, the communion service,
(12:40):
whatever.
It is right and that's great.
But what is the volunteergetting out of it?
Can you enumerate that?
Can you go say this is you knowwhat you might get out of doing
this job?
People want to volunteer, butthey also have their own
interests, and it's not a badthing, right?
(13:01):
Maybe they want to experiencesome growth.
It's something they've neverdone.
They've never read from theBible in front of the
congregation, and this could bea real growth opportunity for
them.
Right, and so you can describe.
You know, this will give you achance to hone your reading
skills and to work with otherpeople.
And you know, pick theselection, however that works in
(13:25):
your congregation.
Right, but making that covenant, that back and forth, is really
important Because it makes itfeel like, wow, these people
appreciate me, I could getsomething out of this and you
know really what.
They're probably going to domore for you, because they feel
(13:47):
like it's a two-way streetinstead of just a one-way.
Here I am.
I got to volunteer again, right, and it becomes less of a
burden.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You mentioned a word that always gets my ears pricked
up these days, and it's theword appreciate, and to me that
is so critical for working withvolunteers or working with
anybody really.
But especially with volunteers,is having letting them know how
(14:21):
much you know if I'm the faithleader or the elected leader of
congregation, how much Iappreciate, instead of taking
them for granted, which all toooften volunteers feel like
they're taken for granted.
But you know, showing thatappreciation and not just saying
thank you once a year at theend of the year or something
(14:44):
like that, but doing somespecific things to show that
appreciation doesn't have to bemonetary, it can be other kinds
of appreciation.
Well, you know you've whatwould you share with us.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
You tripped a few synapses here.
For me, I don't like to say so.
One of the things is that youdon't.
You know there's a guy, danielPink, who wrote this book called
Drive, and he talks aboutautonomy, mastery, purpose,
right, and now it's Essentiallyit's a book about motivating
(15:18):
people in the workplace Right,but it works totally with
volunteers as well.
Where people want to haveautonomy, they want to feel like
they're intelligent and you'retrusting them with something and
they can go ahead and do it.
Yeah, and in a nonprofit, in achurch situation, you can't
afford to micromanage people.
You just don't have that kindof time, right.
(15:40):
So that's really important.
Mastery is all about themunderstanding, learning what
they're doing right, it's agrowth experience for them.
So that's really important.
But the key one is purpose.
Nonprofits, own purpose.
You know, if you work for awidget company, they have to
(16:03):
invent purpose.
You already got purpose.
So connect whatever you'redoing.
Even if you have somebody doingyour books, right, as a
volunteer, show them what theiraccounting is making happen.
Those kids are getting VBS,those you know this congregation
(16:24):
, those older people are gettingvisited.
You know there's a mission tripgoing someplace, right, get
them engaged at a point wherethey can see what's happening on
the ground.
That's hugely motivating,especially when the volunteer
opportunity is disconnected fromthe actual doing of the mission
(16:45):
of your organization.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a huge part of showing
the appreciation, yes, isknowing that they have a purpose
there and it's not just busywork, no, exactly, it's not just
well, pastor doesn't have time,well, and one of the things
(17:09):
that Pink brings up and anotherguy named Casser.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There's a book called the High Price of Materialism,
which is really cool.
I used to use it in my teachingand they talk about the fact
that you don't have to givemoney to motivate.
It's fascinating.
Now, of course, in this churchsituation, you're probably not
going to be doing that anyhow,right?
But the people who getmotivated get episodic
(17:34):
recognition and gifts orsomething.
So it's not like this thing.
You know, ozzly, I have neverbeen to a volunteer appreciation
lunch and dinner or whateverright that people show up to in
droves.
It just doesn't happen, right?
But back to that one-to-onerelationship where do something
(17:55):
special for somebody because youknow them and you know they
would appreciate that.
That's huge.
Yeah, that really motivatespeople, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, so there's so much.
We could probably do the wholeshow on just volunteers, and
that would be a bad thing.
But I also would like to talk alittle bit about you know.
Sometimes we start kind of withan idea for a ministry of some
(18:27):
sort and there are ways to spinthat off to a nonprofit, and so
if you would share a little bitabout that because I do want to
get to one other point yet whichhas to do with dollars and
cents as well, but talk a littlebit about you know just some of
(18:49):
the key things to think aboutfor spinning off to a nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, it's important to look at.
When you do something like that, you're going to gain some
things, you're going to losesome things.
One of the things you knowyou're you're gaining is
actually the lack of liabilityfor whatever the organization is
doing.
A lot of times churches willhave things under their umbrella
(19:13):
that you know might be kind ofrisky one way or another, and by
spinning them off, you arehaving them stand independently
and that risk can move to anorganization that, if something
goes wrong, it's not going tohave an impact on on you.
So so that's, that's number one.
(19:35):
The other things I'd say is thatyou're going to start to, you
would hope, bring in people tothat ministry that are not
necessarily connected to yourcongregation, and, and it can be
a real advantage Look okay, soyears gone by, my son was in
scouting.
I spent a lot of time inscouting when I was a kid, as a
(19:56):
leader and even as aprofessional for a while, right,
and churches would sponsor BoyScout troops, and yet it was.
You could organize this so thatit might be separate and that's
kind of the the.
There's liability issues thatgo with the troop, right, but
you're bringing in people whomight come in for never enter
(20:18):
your church otherwise and kindof as a door opener into it.
But it's separate enough thatthey don't feel like they're
going to your church, at leastnot ostensibly.
Might be physically going there, right, and so that that's a
way of bringing people in, so itexposes people to your.
(20:39):
I'm sorry, go ahead, yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, I was thinking that there are some
congregations that start a likea preschool program or something
like that and for the community, depending upon where they live
and where the actual facilityis located, and that can be a
wonderful way of introducingparents with young children to
(21:06):
your congregation, not requiringthat they be members, but
sometimes they do join becauseof the nature that their kids
are there and they get familiarwith the people and things like
that.
So it can be a way not only ofletting people know about your
congregation but actuallygrowing the congregation.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, no, I've seen that happen.
Actually, couples church havebeen involved with head
preschools where that reallymakes a big difference.
I'll tell you the biggest thein my mind, the, the arch
typical example, the supersuccessful example, almost to
the point, where actually theykind of forgot.
The organization that spun off,forgot its roots, was Heifer
International.
(21:49):
Heifer actually started as achurch of the brethren ministry
and you see, that's new to youdidn't know that and it started
there and then they spun thatoff and it became so much more
and they don't necessarilyconnect back to the church of
(22:09):
the brethren.
By the way, listeners, if youhave a child and they want to
learn more about Heifer, grab abook called Faith the Cow.
It's a really cool introductionto that organization.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
So, yeah, the it also .
It has a two edge sword, though, when it comes to funding, and
that is now.
This organization can go getits own funding, and that might
be part of the purpose to takeit off your budget, right.
However, some of that fundingmight come back from the people
(22:45):
who are in your congregation, soyou have set up a competitor,
too.
They can go out and fund theirorganization from outsiders, but
there are going to be people inyour congregation who feel
strongly about that ministry,whether it's part of it or
independent, and they willcontinue to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Right, good point, good point.
But that brings me to the othertopic I at least want to talk
about, and that is funding.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Ah-ha, done, done, done.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, small topic, yeah, again, we could be
a whole, a whole episode on that.
And raising funds, yes, and Ilike one thing you shared with
me as a reminder that funders,the people who provide the funds
(23:36):
, are not at 8 pm.
Oh yeah, and sometimes, youknow, we keep asking and asking
and asking over and over andover for more and more and more,
and there aren't limits.
We all have a budget, we allhave life and responsibilities.
So what are some other ways,some other ideas, some dos and
(23:58):
don'ts, tips and tricks,whatever you want to call them,
to generating revenue for afaith community?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well.
So it's important to remember,first of all, that you're right,
they're not ATMs.
You don't.
And particularly I teach acourse in grant writing, right,
and a lot of folks, oh, justsend in the papers, get money,
right, it doesn't work that way.
It's not like you put your cardin or anything.
However, if people arepassionate about your mission,
whatever it is you're doing,they will find their resources
(24:29):
to help you.
When somebody says I can'tafford something, that has
twofold meaning.
Right, one is they don't havethe money, and that's what
they're implying, but really,more times than not, it is that
this is not a priority for me,so they don't make room in their
budget.
And yeah, there is a limit foreverybody.
(24:50):
But if somebody doesn't likeyou or fails, they'll give you
$10 that they love you, theymight give you $10,000, even
though you only expect they havethe capacity to do $1,000 for
you.
They might figure that outsomehow, maybe in their will,
maybe some plan giving means orsomething.
But it's important that youthink of all philanthropy, all
(25:14):
giving, as a one-to-one kind ofproposition.
And especially, I made upsomething years ago from my
classes that I call the formulafor fundraising.
And so people say, gee, what isthe magic formula?
Well, it's not magic, it'sactually kind of math or it
looks math-like.
I say it's one-to-one slashfour-one.
(25:37):
So if you write it downone-to-one slash four-one, which
means one-to-one me to you,kathleen, back and forth for
that person whom we are helpingand our mission helps.
So you bring the resources, Ibring the program.
Now we're kind of on an equalbasis on this right, because
(26:00):
we're both bringing something tothe table for the purpose of
helping that person for whichour mission serves.
And it really takes the edgeoff for a lot of people because
they're like wow, I'm notbegging, I'm partnering with
somebody.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, and I think that's really important to
remember because many faithcommunities it's funding for the
budget and for the day-to-daythings and nobody really gets
excited about, you know, keepingthe lights on.
I mean, yeah, we want to havethe lights on for services and
(26:39):
things like that, but you knowwho gets excited about that kind
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, exactly, it's what the lights do Right and who
and it's always important toput it down to a person who are
the lights benefiting, so thatyou know sanctuary, those lights
are on, those kids are gettingwhatever you know the children's
(27:05):
sermon out of it, or the peoplein the pews are getting
something out of it.
Or downstairs, like you talkedabout, the folks in the kitchen
are doing.
You know everybody's gettingsomething out of that.
So focus on the people we'reserving Right.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, and that's something that it's too easy to
forget.
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Especially when that bill comes Right here's like oh,
I need to pay this right.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Yeah, so that's you know, especially as a faith
community thinks about itsbudget, planning, time and
whatever.
You know, how can we word thesethings and I think that's where
many other kinds of nonprofitsdo a much better job than most
(27:52):
faith communities do as to howto tell the story as a story,
and to what?
Who are we?
Because sometimes I find thatfaith communities forget who
they are and why they're reallythere.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Let me give you a way to get your head around this.
I find helpful.
My students, okay, if you're ofa certain age, and even, I find
that, people who aren't of acertain age, because the reruns
are out, we all know the BradyBunch, right, and you see in the
beginning, the first lines ofthe Brady Bunch, you see the
grid right Of here's mom and dadand the kids and they're all
(28:32):
kind of pictured out there,right, but what do they say?
They don't talk about numbers,they don't talk about all of the
.
You know.
You could say, okay, here arethe data points and we have so
many kids and we have twoparents and we have a
housekeeper, and we do this andwe do that, we live here, right,
and you can point, point, point, point, point.
No they start out with it's astory.
That's the first lines of thatsong when they show that grid.
(28:55):
So they're not talking aboutall of those, the things that
people don't relate to.
They connect those things to astory.
That's what our fundraisingneeds to be out of, because
humans learn by stories.
We may have become really goodat data or not, maybe sometimes
(29:18):
but we learn by stories, and soto get somebody engaged in a
story about what you're doing isreally important.
And again back to one-to-one Me, to you just talking.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And unfortunately, I see too many congregations that
have forgotten their story, andthat's something that I like to
work with them on andre-energizing that story.
But I want to say thank you somuch, matt.
Hopefully maybe we can do thisagain and go a little deeper on
(29:53):
some things, because I knowthere's so much more to talk
about than we had time for.
So, but we can't go on for sixhours.
Well, we could go on for sixhours.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Our audience may not.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, we could go on for six hours with this, but
thank you so very, very much.
And, matt, let them know wherethey can get a hold of you for
more and for that website nameagain for all of these wonderful
courses.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Yeah, actually the best way to get a hold of me is
to go to nonprofitcourses,notcom, ororg butcourses, and
just click on the contact buttonthere.
That'll bring up a little form.
You can fill it out and thatsends an email right to my inbox
almost instantaneously, and I'mhappy to connect with folks who
(30:41):
send me notes.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Thank you, matt, and thank all of you who have been
listening and being here todaywith Matt and me, and come back
again for another episode of theTilted Halo.
We'll be back again.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
(31:06):
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments, be sureto like, subscribe and share
this episode and catch anotherupcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry, life, mindset and a
whole lot more, go towwwtiltedhalohelpcom, where I've
got a resource guide and otherresources waiting for you, and
(31:30):
be sure to say hi to me,kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
See you on the next episode.
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