February 24, 2025 • 44 mins
Discover how Dr. Ewa Kleczyk, a leader in healthcare analytics, illuminates the hidden yet pervasive issue of imposter syndrome among women in ministry and leadership roles. A staggering 75% of women executives grapple with feeling like frauds despite their accomplishments, and Dr. Kleczyk explains the societal pressures and historical contexts that fuel this self-doubt. Listen as we explore the perfectionist, the first of the four types of imposter syndrome, and discuss the profound impact these feelings have on personal and professional growth.
We uncover the strength found in community and spirituality as powerful antidotes to imposter syndrome and mental health struggles. Dr. Kleczyk shares her experiences growing up in communist Poland, where the church was more than just a place of worship—it was a refuge and a source of unity. Today, similar support networks, including women's groups and spiritual communities, offer vital mentorship and resilience. We emphasize the importance of acknowledging struggles, practicing self-compassion, and building networks that lift each other.
Through the lens of self-compassion and gratitude, we delve into the empowerment of women. By reframing failures as opportunities for growth and recognizing our shared humanity, we can foster a mindset of hope and resilience. Dr. Klesik inspires us to invest in ourselves through community involvement, spirituality, and education. Embrace gratitude for both external and internal strengths, and connect with Dr. Kleczyk on Instagram for more insights on leadership and empowerment!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:45):
It is my honor and privilege tohave a guest with me again
today here on the Tilted Halo.
Dr Eva Klesik is an esteemedleader in healthcare analytics,
honored by the prestigiousPresidential Lifetime
Achievement Award in 2023.
Currently, she's an executiveat a prominent healthcare
(01:08):
research organization and sheplays a pivotal role in
accelerating the disseminationof crucial insights in medicine
and pharmaceuticals by enhancingdata quality and research
methods.
With nearly two decades ofexperience, dr Klesik is a
prominent figure in healthcareanalytics and operations.
(01:29):
She actively participates inrenowned conferences,
contributes to academic andindustry journals and mentors
aspiring analysts, particularlywomen, demonstrating her
commitment to advancing genderdiversity in the field.
Her efforts have earned herrecognition from esteemed
(01:50):
organizations like theHealthcare Business Women
Association and the Women TechNetwork.
Beyond her professionalendeavors, dr Klesik dedicates
her time to supportingcancer-related initiatives and
educational programs, serving onvarious boards and establishing
academic scholarships.
(02:11):
Originally from Wrocław I'm notgoing to pronounce that
correctly Wrocław Poland sheholds a doctorate in economics
from Virginia Tech and amaster's degree from the
University of Maine.
Dr Klesik resides in Lansdale,pennsylvania, with her husband,
where she continues to makesignificant contributions to the
(02:35):
health care community andengaging in philanthropic
endeavors.
Dr Klesik was brought up RomanCatholic and continues to
preserve her faith and spiritualupbringing in her adulthood.
Passionate about equitablehealth care, dr Klesik
frequently promotes justice andcompassion on local and
(02:58):
community podcasts, advocatingfor patient advocacy and
comprehensive care that includesspiritual well-being.
Her commitment to mentoringwomen in healthcare analytics is
inspired by her spiritualbeliefs and her mission to leave
a lasting legacy and a betterworld for future generations.
(03:19):
Dr Klesik, welcome to the.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Tilted Halo.
Well, wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me, Kathleen.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
We met a couple of months before we're recording
kind of experienced firsthandwhen I started in ministry and
(03:52):
it's imposter syndrome women inministry and women of leadership
who are using their faith andcommitment in their leadership,
for whom this is probablyequally a topic that they've had
(04:14):
a little bit too muchfamiliarity with, shall I say,
part of our own life and growingup.
There were no women in ministrywho were models for me when I
was starting and so it was kindof like who am I that I can be
doing this?
But even when there are otherwomen who can be models for us,
(04:40):
that can still be an issue.
So what is you know?
Give us a definition.
What is imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
to begin with, yes, thank you so much.
This is an interesting topicand imposter syndrome is
something that many of us sufferfrom.
So what it is?
It's a psychological patternwhere an individual doubts their
accomplishments and haspersistent fear of being exposed
as a fraud, and I think we allcan see in our lives that
(05:11):
sometimes we feel like, oh mygoodness, aren't they going to
find out that I'm not all ofthis?
And especially this happens forwomen in male-dominated
industries, like yourself beinga minister, a female minister.
Many women executives have thisas well.
Where they are coming in, theyare the only female on the board
(05:32):
or in the leadership group andjust feeling very different.
And it has been identified that75% of women executives say
that they feel imposter syndromein their workplace, so that is
a really staggering number, butit also tells us that we don't
(05:53):
talk about imposter syndrome.
However, it is something thatwe all are experiencing and I
think we do have to talk aboutit, whether it's in faith,
whether it's in family life orwhether this is in our
professional journey.
It's something that we are allgoing to be struggling with and
we need to identify how to dealwith it and what do we do and
how do we support ourselves inorder to overcome it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know, it's so interesting that it's that high
of a number.
Think that it's that high of anumber even in this day and age
where I was growing up, whereyou know, women's liberation and
those kinds of things back inthe 60s and 70s was so popular
and it was like, oh, we'resupposed to be free and done
with all of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And here it is three quarters or more of us still
have this Is there any researchor things that you're aware of
as to why women in particularhave this issue?
(06:59):
So I think this is there, isyou know?
First of all, there's a lot ofresearch about imposter syndrome
.
It's just not very wellpublicized.
Many new organizations arediscussing this, but I think it
goes back to the upbringing,where we all are coming from.
So there are four types ofimposter syndrome and I think
this is important to walkthrough because anyone will
(07:19):
identify with at least one ofthem, if not all of them, as we
are talking about First of all,it we are talking about, and
first of all, it's theperfectionist.
How many of us want to doeverything just right,
everything has to be doneparticularly well and we don't
take any failure as the markupat all.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, to just piggyback on that.
I mean, I felt the need to beseen as equal to my male
counterparts.
I had to be so much better than, and so the perfectionism.
You know how dare I make a flub, because then I won't be seen
(08:00):
as worthwhile at all.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
So, yeah, that can be there very easily Very very
easily, regardless of what weare going through, and so forth.
The next one, I think is evenmore associated with women, is
being the superwoman or superman, but in this case being a
superwoman, feeling like we haveto excel in every part of our
(08:23):
professional life, our home life, our spiritual life, our
community life, everywhere wehave to come in and be at our
best, and hopefully those womenwho are listening to us right
now realize that it's notpossible to be perfectionist and
be the super woman every singleday of our lives.
(08:44):
Right, there are days where theonly thing we can do is wake up
and do the bare minimum, andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Sometimes the only thing we want to do is go to
church or go to a place ofservice or worship and
spiritually uplift ourselves.
It's okay to do that and Ithink understanding that women
especially are suffering fromthe superwoman type of imposter
syndrome.
I think that brings it in and Ithink this is probably the most
(09:15):
common across women to feelingthis, because we have to be good
moms, we have to be good wives,we have to be good friends, we
have to be good workers, and itjust continuously brings us to
the point where we feeloverwhelmed.
Many women feel overwhelmed,and especially during COVID era.
I know we all passed COVID, butCOVID opened up where many
(09:36):
women experienced working eighthours at home, doing then
schoolwork for their kids,taking care of their elderly
parents, doing then schoolworkfor their kids, taking care of
their elderly parents.
It was exhausting on many ofthem, but they felt like they
had to do it all and really doit by themselves.
The next two ones are reallyrelated to and they're often
seen in the male-dominated arena, like yourself, being a female
(10:00):
minister.
For me, being in amale-dominated industry within
analytics, where I'm usually theonly woman right or one of the
few women at the table, so beingan expert and then being a
soloist.
I think we all women also, whenwe want to be superwoman, we
also want to be a soloist.
(10:20):
We want to do everythingbecause we like our table to be
set a certain way.
We want to be always recognizedright.
We always believe that everyoneelse, no one, will do the work
the way we need to get done, andI think we all suffer from this
, versus saying well, maybethat's not true, maybe I need
someone else.
And I think especially women, asthey're going in their careers,
(10:41):
are also not asking for thesupport they're not asking,
realizing I cannot be a soloist,I will never be an expert in
everything.
How do I surround myself withpeople who can complement me
right, who know, identify theblind sites, whether it's
spiritual blind sites, whetherit's our home life blind sites,
professional blind sites?
(11:01):
We all have them and I think wehave to ask for help.
That's one but two surroundourselves with individuals who
can help us fill in some ofthose gaps that we have and
ultimately release the pressure.
Release the pressure from usand be able to breathe a little
bit better, knowing that, yes, Imay not be able to do
everything.
However, I have the networkthat can help me and really will
(11:25):
support me in the arenas that Imight not be the best.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And that part in my experience for myself and with
most clergy, male as well asfemale, that I know is really
tough.
There is a competition, if youwill, that happens amongst
(11:52):
pastors and kind of the subtle.
You know, look at so-and-so,they're having trouble over
there, you know, or you knowthat congregation is not
thriving as well.
So we want to be in competitionso that we aren't like them and
(12:12):
it's a subtle type of thing.
But it also creates that silo,that solo thing that I got to do
it all myself.
And there's something, atendency with the ministry
called being the lone ranger,that whole idea I'm going to go
(12:34):
out there and conquer everything, and you know.
But for those who know the oldTV show, the lone ranger, the
lone ranger had a sidekick, hadsomebody there helping him along
the way, and we often forgetthat.
And there's the pressure fromthose who we work with sometimes
(12:56):
that you know we hired, you,called you to do this, that you
know why, why can't you do allof this, uh, type of attitude as
well.
That feeds into that um, so wekind of get it from within and
outside of us so to have thatpart of the imposter syndrome,
(13:20):
um, pushed on us validated in away that is not helpful.
No, no At all.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It's not helpful, and I would say it's also
especially from us being you andI, both being women also.
Women inflict that very oftenon themselves, whether they like
it or not.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Being in a professional role.
There is only so many womenthat make to the top.
Right, you are on the top inyour arena.
I'm hoping that I am reachingthe top and you can see there's
a very different way of howwomen are behaving and what we
want to say.
Always leave the latter behindor help someone else on the way.
(14:00):
It is much more difficult.
The soloist and the expert Iworked so hard for it starts
coming up, and I think to yourpoint, you were talking about
ministers being, or clergy being, competitive with each other.
I think women are verycompetitive with each other in
their own professions.
And it's sometimes they are thebigger obstacle on someone
else's pathway forward and weneed to start talking about it.
(14:23):
We need to talk about theinsecurities that we all have
and realizing that, while we allwant to achieve everything, we
all can do this, but when wesupport each other and realize
that someone else might have askill set that I will never be
able to obtain or it's going totake me a long time to obtain,
but together we are much greaterthan the separate parts of us,
(14:45):
I think that makes a verydifferent changes.
The context and theunderstanding of what we can
accomplish together.
It is always that community andthe partnership that can help us
.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And that's so interesting because traditional
Christian faith, but also Jewishand what I know of Muslim,
which is not all that much butthe community is so important in
most faith groups and so yet wecut ourselves off from that
(15:43):
community and the potential forthat, not only within our own
little communities, our ownlocal community and ministry,
but how that can empower so manybeyond us, a ripple effect, if
you will.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I would, I would, I would agree.
Um, I think, um, growing up inpoland, church was very
important.
I was growing up during thecommunist times, right, so we
were.
You know, church was onlyallowed on certain hours of the
day and when you had to go totake the religion class, you
were going to the, to the church, and this was all done.
But it brought in peopletogether and I think the support
(16:22):
that the church was providingwasn't only spiritual.
It was a place where everyonecould gather and feel safe,
regardless of where they werecoming from, and so forth.
The other place for me which tome, that always plays in and the
church close by us.
We have a Polish shrine here.
What they provide is also thesupport for the people who might
(16:45):
not have food right.
Feed the hungry, bring them thefood, help them.
Um, for us, during thecommunist time, um, in the
united states, the communitieshere would be, the churches
would be gathering a lot of foodand clothing and they'll be
shipping them to the churchesand we would be going in and
receiving.
I always remember coming backas a five-year-old with a pound
(17:06):
of cheese on my arms that wasdelivered by one of the michigan
churches to us, and it was itis it changes how we are doing
this, but it also presents itthat we are all that much better
, that much more um successfulif we all work together.
Because even those little itemslike giving someone an advice or
(17:27):
saying something kind to them,it changes how someone can feel
and where they can go,ultimately go, and I think we
never talk about it.
but imposter syndrome is comingin because people have
insecurities and they don'tthink that, um, that others
perceive them the way they wouldlike to be perceived, and I
(17:48):
think those insecurities aregoing in.
So it's a.
It's an interesting thing howwe are doing, you know how this
is all playing out, andespecially for women, and I
think having that discussion,open discussion, and recognizing
what it can do we haven'ttalked about the impact of it
but the mental health of thatit's really significant,
(18:10):
especially on women, andespecially on women who at some
point might have all of the fourof the imposter syndromes at
the same time.
And trying to deal with that itis not an easy feast to do and
it's not an easy task toovercome.
So I think that partnership,that community, the faith, the
is the spirituality, that's whatcan really help us ground and
(18:32):
help us really start thinkingabout what it is we would have
to be able to be open about thisand to share those feelings of
(19:00):
well, you know, no, I can't doit all To be a little bit
vulnerable in saying where ourlimits are and reaching out.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
The power of a model like that for the other women in
our ministry who we work withcould be huge.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Absolutely.
I think there is nothing betterthan doing that and also giving
the you know, as I'm thinkingabout how do you overcome it.
I mean, spiritual life isextremely important, but it also
can allow not only to groundbut also normalize what imposter
syndrome is.
And normalize failure and Idon't mean failure, that you
(19:45):
know we're always going to befailing but changing the meaning
of struggle, changing themeaning of today.
I have a bad day, and do I haveto be ostracized for it?
Or do I just say I, you know?
I say God, I'm today, it'sgonna be the day that I'm gonna.
It's okay for me to wake up andtake a shower.
That's gonna be the only thingI'm gonna do and I'm gonna pray
(20:07):
for your you know, to you forthe glory or for for your
forgiveness for not doinganything else.
But I think these are all ofthe aspects that we all have to
be thinking about and talking.
I mean, we don't talk aboutwomen who just had kids, who
just gave birth, and thedepression that they are going
through or the loneliness theyare feeling, right, and I think
(20:28):
that goes in as well.
We don't think about it as animposter syndrome because that
also has a lot of psychologicaland chemical components to this,
but it does plays in because itfeeds in on the same components
, on the same basis of feelingincluded, feeling like I'm not
the only one, I'm not alone,knowing that someone else is
(20:49):
feeling this.
Right, women always suffer fromnot knowing that someone else is
going through the exact samething that someone was able to
get through.
So, as I always many of thesepresentations that I do, it's
about women executive to womenexecutive and for the leadership
component.
But it's the piece ofacknowledging, normalizing,
(21:10):
changing the perspective, what afailure is and saying, because
I'm not going to take a showertoday, that doesn't mean that I
failed.
It means that today I need abreak.
Right, I need someone else tohelp me and having that women
group or, you know, spiritualgroup that can really help,
mentor and support in the verydifficult times, that community
(21:32):
that we were just discussing isextremely, extremely important.
And raising the hand and again,we as women don't raise our
hands very often because we aresuper women, right?
We do it and um, if.
if anything, what I would say is, at the point when we can at
least pray for for your ownstrength to acknowledge to
(21:55):
yourself that you are struggling, because I don't know how many
women actually acknowledge thatIf you don't want to say it out
loud at least acknowledge toyourself and have the compassion
for yourself at that givenmoment.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Right, and that was.
I mean, there was a point in myministry where acknowledging to
myself that I was strugglingwas very difficult, but
thankfully I got into a supportgroup at that time.
I was invited into one and eventhough I didn't share a lot at
(22:29):
that time in that group, I'vebeen in another one since then.
Um, I've been in another onesince then.
Um, but it it just being thereand hearing some of the
struggles.
And I was the only female inthat support group.
Uh, uh at that point.
But, um, just being there andhaving a chance to hear what
(22:53):
some of the others were goingthrough and knowing that, oh
well, I'm not so different fromthem after all, and you know,
seeing that some of these malecolleagues from a variety of
different denominations had manyof the same struggles and you
know they had many, many moreyears of experience in ministry
(23:15):
than I did, and yet they werestill doing that or still
experiencing some of thosethings.
It really helped me at thatpoint in time.
And then the last group I waspart of, very open, very well, I
had somebody there who was kindof the facilitator for the
(23:39):
group and everything, and it wasmen and women as well, but
mostly women in that group, andit was so much more open and so
much more to breathe and to beme and to share and I grew as a
(24:00):
result of that and was able tobring a lot of that back into
the congregation, especiallybecause the congregation was
going through a huge struggle atthat point as well.
A huge struggle at that pointas well.
So all of those things are soimportant to have those mentors
(24:20):
to be a mentor.
What other kinds of things canbe helpful to deal with imposter
syndrome?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So there are many different things.
There are clearly a lot ofpsychological, behavioral type
of techniques that can be doneand I would say is I would
always advise women and men whoare struggling with any anxiety,
any mental health issues,always reach out to the
professionals and take it.
Imposter syndrome might besomething that is showing up,
(24:51):
but there might be some otherthings.
Sometimes some of us need alittle bit more help.
So I always encourage that.
But for women especially, Iwould say is celebrate
achievements.
Uh, women, don't celebrate.
women don't celebrate Um, and wedon't support each other.
We almost become jealous ofeach other's um success.
So change that.
(25:12):
When uh um celebrate the littlethings, celebrate and clap for
all of all of the women in yournetwork.
Recognize them, be kind to them.
Because, regardless of what theyare doing, they are putting
themselves out there.
They are doing something thatis different.
Help, support each other.
That imposter syndrome is goingto slowly become not as visible
(25:38):
to others, right, because we'regoing to feel much more
empowered to do what we need todo.
We also need to buildself-confidence, self-esteem,
and, again, women.
Very often women struggle withself-esteem.
If you think about it, being awoman these days, it's not that
easy, right?
You have to, you know, be agood mother, be a professional,
(26:00):
take care of your parents, be agood wife, look good, right.
Behave appropriately.
It's a.
If you think about the stressesthat women are feeling right now
, it is really the self-esteemat many different levels can be
impacted and the impostersyndrome might be coming in
because I don't look the way Iwould like or I don't.
(26:21):
You know, I'm not perceived bysomeone that I'm a good mother,
or my parents don't think I'm agood daughter, whatever that
might be.
There are so many differentthings.
So I would say, yes, self-talkand self-positive affirmation.
Stand in front of that mirrorand every day, say something
positive to yourself, becausesomeone said I was watching a
podcast or listening to apodcast and someone said, if you
(26:43):
talk very positively toyourself, it becomes ingrained
in your head, right?
If you say, oh my goodness, Ilook good today, or I feel good,
or I'm going to wake up and I'mgoing to do this, it starts
becoming you.
And the more you do that, themore your mind changes.
Mind is like a sponge, and oneof the podcasts that I was
listening to it said that eventhe unconscious thoughts that
(27:06):
might be negative are impactinghow, ultimately, we are behaving
, and that's something that we,as women, should do and try to
force ourselves to speak kindlyto yourself.
Say something good.
The second thing is we, aswomen, are very compassionate to
everyone but ourselves.
We love we.
You know.
We say we're going to take careof our kids, we're going to
(27:28):
take care of our husband.
When our parents are ailing, weare there as the caregivers.
And these are.
I mean, we all do that becausewe love the family members we
have or we love supportingothers, and support that's a.
That's a normal feeling.
But if you ask many women, arethey compassionate for
themselves?
They will say no, they're somuch more distant and strict and
(27:53):
they believe that again thatperfectionism is coming, the
superwoman coming in.
So be kind to yourself.
As I mentioned earlier,sometimes just taking a shower
it's good enough for the day,and I think if we have that
mentality of it's okay.
Treat yourself with kindness,the same kindness that you are
giving your family, yourneighbors, your co-workers.
(28:14):
Give yourself the same.
Treat yourself the same way asyou're not treating others.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And the final I can add one thing in there.
There's the old saying that'sin some form in basically every
religion love your neighbor asyourself, and it's the as
yourself part of that that Inever heard growing up.
(28:40):
You know it was love yourneighbor love your neighbor,
great.
But when we don't love ourselves, like you're talking about with
that, we can't really love theneighbor.
We can't really love theneighbor.
And so it's being kind toourself, giving ourselves the
(29:01):
same grace, the same, you know,pass if you will at times, but
the same lack of judgment,judgmentalism that we would give
somebody else, we need to givethat to ourselves, and we have
(29:22):
the scriptural grounding forthat.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
It's not just, you know, a nice thing we're called
to do that we are, but most ofus, especially women, we don't
do that.
We don't do that because wewere always raised to put
someone else ahead of us, right.
First right so it's a….
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Being a martyr?
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And you know I come… Coming from Poland.
There is a… Polish women werecalled….
You know there is a famoussaying that… Mother Poland, or
Polish mother, however you wantto say it, but it talks about
the mother who can do everythingright, the superwoman.
So that's, that's a statue, oneof the one of the cities in
Poland, and and that was alwaysthat how we were viewing right.
(30:05):
This is the, this is what youshould be, and I think that is
that is what we women,especially, are being raised
with, and and the lack ofcompassion for for ourselves
comes from that as well.
But I love what you said loveyour neighbors like you would
love yourself, and we have towork on the love yourself first,
otherwise it's not going to befeasible to be, or even or not
(30:28):
even doable, you are not coming.
Authentic becoming.
You know you are not authenticif you don't give yourself the
same grace as everyone else.
And I would say it's alwaysdevelop those skills, because
whether you're going to be a,whether you are immersed in
faith, whether you're immersedin your professional life, or
even when you are volunteeringin a community, this always
(30:57):
requires some kind ofdevelopment some kind of
learning of a skill, some kindof educational component.
We have to invest in thisbecause that's also part of
developing yourself, investingin yourselves.
We don't talk about investmentin ourselves, but we should, and
I think spirituality is aninvestment in ourselves.
Education, whatever that mightbe, volunteering, is an
(31:17):
investment.
Being part of a being a goodfamily member, contributing
family member, is an investment.
I think there's so manydifferent investments and in
order to be whole, we have tothink about the entire spectrum
of ourselves and realize thatone day we're going to be better
in one of them, these differentaspects and sometimes we will
not be good in any of them, butthat's okay.
(31:38):
Today is what it is.
Tomorrow we can correct itright.
We can be better tomorrow.
And I was at a conference alittle bit long last year and
someone said that, especiallyfor women, that when we have a
hard day, we almost give up andwe are so devastated and it's
okay for us to cry.
(31:59):
I think you know also, as godwas.
You had the discussion withwith god what's going on.
Why am I feeling today the wayI'm feeling?
But also wake up the next dayand say the sun is up, the sun
just risen.
I can also now try to be better, I can try to do, and give
yourself the kindness of sayingI can do it, I am, I'm good and
(32:21):
and just move forward, because Ithink we don't think about that
.
That.
Allow yourself to grieve we allhave places where we are
grieving but also think aboutwhat, how you can that the next
day.
It's an opportunity to corrector have a.
Whatever you want to do, it's a.
It's a blank space.
It's a blank.
Correct or have a.
Whatever you want to do, it's a.
It's a blank space.
It's a blank sheet.
You can do whatever you want todo with that, with the next day,
(32:41):
nothing is going to be heldagainst you.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
You are going forward with the next day, the next
morning yeah, yeah, there's somany things within um, the faith
context, that um be shared.
You know talking about how thisall fits in with within
Christian faith in particular,but it because that's my context
(33:06):
, that's why why I say that.
But you know the whole ideafrom the Apostle Paul that we
are all sinned and we have allfall short of the glory of God,
which allows us to recognizethat we don't have to be perfect
, because we can't be, and butit also allows us to understand
(33:32):
that you know there's God'sgrace there and we can grow in
the midst of that and sharingand being there for other people
.
And you know it's okay.
It's okay we do the best we caneach day, knowing what we have
(33:57):
and what we can give.
Absolutely yeah.
And I just realized I have toplug in my computer.
No worries, as I've been downhere for a moment.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So I don't lose the power, okay, but all of that is
you know, I was talking withsomeone else recently that to
remember that every single day,in every single situation, based
on what we see and what weunderstand at that moment, we
(34:34):
really try to do the best we can.
That moment we really try to dothe best we can.
And when we say I didn't do itwell enough, I failed, whatever,
that's always in retrospect,that's a judgment, looking back
on something and to recognizethat.
(34:59):
Okay, maybe, looking back on it, I see some other information,
I understand things a littledifferently.
And now the next time ortomorrow when I talk to this
person, I can change that.
The past is, it's gone and yetwe can always move forward from
there instead of feeling trappedby that.
(35:20):
That is correct.
That failure is not fatal,unless we keep that as the
definition for the rest of thefuture keep that as the
definition for the rest of thefuture, and I think that's why
reframing what failure is isvery important and changing the
(35:41):
definition of it and saying it'slearning right, it's learning
on.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yes, it didn't go the way I want it.
I can pray on it I can cry onit.
I can do whatever I need to doto digest what just happened.
Take the lessons.
Take the lessons and the nextday you have the opportunity to
change your direction, changeyour journey.
It's in your hand.
(36:07):
It's in your hand If you hearthese different stories of
individuals who went to prisonor who came from nothing, who
came from families where therewas abuse or a drug abuse or
whatever other circumstances,and you see where they ended up
(36:27):
at the end.
You are, you know it's the willthat they had of changing the
cycle, understanding theenvironment and what was
happening to them or where theywere placed and being able to
move forward and reallyunderstanding what it takes for
them and having the willpower tochange their circumstance.
And I think if this was easy,right if we all would be angels
(36:48):
here walking on this planet.
But none of us are.
We are none of us are and Ithink but that's what is the.
We all have differentexperiences and I think we learn
from each other.
We all have very differentperspective.
Some of us come in fromdifferent countries, some from
different religions, but thereis one uniform thing If you are
open and if you are willing tounderstand another human being,
(37:11):
you can move forward.
You can understand yourselfbetter.
Being a, you can move forward,you can understand yourself
better.
And you can that that impostersyndrome can ultimately slowly
be diminished because your time,your mind frame, is changing.
You are reframing your concept.
You're in framing what a right,what a failure, is right, I
mean, it's a, it's, it's thereis, unless there isn't really
(37:33):
that many things that areextreme failures.
There are things that happen tous, but if you take the
appropriate message from it andtake the learnings, the next day
might be that much better andyou can have a very different
trajectory from that point on.
And and I think that's what weall should be praying and
thinking about and and findingsolace in the fact that today
might not have been the best buttomorrow might be actually a
(37:57):
much better day, and hope andbelieve in that.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Right.
One of the things that I'vefound that helps me reframe some
of the challenges, the pains,the failures, if you will, is
gratitude.
Names the failures, if you willis gratitude Even in the midst
(38:21):
of those times when things gototally haywire and seem like,
you know, it's all going wrong,that there's always things to
find to be grateful for.
And, yes, sometimes we got tolook pretty hard, but to do that
, to be intentional, aboutlooking for the things to be
grateful for and that goes backto the part that you talked
(38:44):
about about being kind toourselves as well and to be
grateful for things within us.
To be grateful for thingswithin us, sometimes it's the
things we didn't say or thingswe didn't do that we can be
really grateful for, that urgeto say something that we bit our
tongue and didn't, which wouldhave made it far worse.
(39:04):
So, you know, anything likethat can be something to be
grateful for, something to begrateful for, and that gives us
permission and understanding tosee some of the successes that
are there too, some of thethings to give us credit for,
and the good things that werethere in the midst of that.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think this is part ofgrowing, right, this is part of
growing for all of us and Ithink if we take these lessons,
that's always good.
But sometimes, when we saycertain things, that's a part of
(39:57):
the learning as well.
We know how it made us feel orwe know how it made someone else
feel, and if we are trulycompassionate, not only to
ourselves but others, then wewill know that we made someone
else feel diminished, we madethem feel like they are
non-existent, and if we feel andwe allow ourselves to feel and
(40:20):
recognize that, we will knowthat we will not do something
forward.
So I always say this it's a.
We're all going to make errors,right.
We're all going to makemistakes, but they're not
failures, they are just.
We all trip, right.
There will be pebble on theroad, we're all going to trip
and we're going to fall down.
Maybe we scratch ourselves alittle bit more, it's going to
be more blood, maybe we evenneed stitches, but it's a
(40:45):
learning because next time,hopefully, we take those
learnings and we move forward.
And especially about impostersyndrome the moment you start
realizing what is holding youback, why you are not
recognizing it and you startthinking about it, that it all
starts with you, that very often, people don't have that
perspective or that perceptionabout you.
Right, it's all in our heads.
It's all in our heads.
I think they start changing andI really love the fact you know
(41:09):
talking to having thatsupportive network, regardless
what this needs to be, where yourealize that you are not the
only one, because most peopledon't think about many people.
Very often, right, we are soself-observed.
Very often we only think aboutourselves.
And then when you go and meetpeople, you realize that, oh my
(41:30):
goodness, hey, no one thoughtabout it, about me and, by the
way, the person that I thoughtis so confident.
They are suffering from exactlythe same thing that I am and I
was putting them on a pedestaland all of a sudden, you realize
that we all are just human.
We all have good and bad daysand we can only do what we can
do.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Right, right, I think we could continue this
conversation for quite a while,dr Klesik, but I want to honor
your time and everything here,too, shared with some eight
(42:14):
points on it about impostersyndrome that will be available
somewhere somehow along withthis podcast some link for that,
so and, if not, on the podcastplatforms, on my YouTube channel
with this, where this is posted.
So thank you so very, very much.
This has been a veryenlightening and hopefully
empowering conversation forwomen who listen to this.
(42:38):
So I truly, truly appreciateyour time and your expertise and
your insights, sharing thiswith me and with all of the
listeners and watchers of this.
All of the listeners andwatchers of this.
(42:58):
So how can people get in touchwith you if they want to learn
more or follow your?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
work and things like that Sure.
So first of all, thank you somuch for having me here.
It was a wonderful opportunityto be here and talk about a very
important topic that many womenof faith and many professional
women and women in general arefaced every single day.
For anyone who would like toreach out to me, who would like
(43:21):
to learn a little bit more ofwhat I do and some of the
leadership work that I do,please feel free to find me on
Instagram it's Dr Eva Kleczek,as my name is spelled over there
, and you can find me and sendthe invite request request and I
would love to connect with youand then you can communicate
with me through Instagram.
So thank you so much for theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Well, thank you.
Thank you very, very much, andto all of the listeners, thank
you for being here today.
Come back for another episodeof the Tilted Halo at some point
in time.
So God's peace and blessings toyou, dr Klazek, and to all of
the Tilted Halo at some point intime.
So God's peace and blessings toyou, dr Klesik, and to all of
the people today.
So take care.
Bye-bye.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
(44:05):
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments.
Be sure to like, subscribe andshare this episode and catch
another upcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry life, mindset and a
whole lot more.
Go to wwwtiltedhalohelpcom,where I've got a resource guide
(44:28):
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
Welcome to the Tilted Halo.
This is a new podcast and it'sfor anybody who's a woman in
ministry.
You might be a pastor likemyself, a bishop, a priest, a
rabbi, music minister, elderchildren's minister whatever
your title is, you're absolutelyin the right place, especially
if you're someone who loves yourministry and you're doing it
(00:24):
well and you're feeling pressureto sometimes be perfect and
deep down inside, you knowyou're not, and how in the world
to deal with that?
And men, you're absolutelywelcome here too, because this
is about ministry and the samething can happen to you.
So you're all in the rightplace.
Let's get started with the show.
(00:45):
It is my honor and privilege tohave a guest with me again
today here on the Tilted Halo.
Dr Eva Klesik is an esteemedleader in healthcare analytics,
honored by the prestigiousPresidential Lifetime
Achievement Award in 2023.
Currently, she's an executiveat a prominent healthcare
(01:08):
research organization and sheplays a pivotal role in
accelerating the disseminationof crucial insights in medicine
and pharmaceuticals by enhancingdata quality and research
methods.
With nearly two decades ofexperience, dr Klesik is a
prominent figure in healthcareanalytics and operations.
(01:29):
She actively participates inrenowned conferences,
contributes to academic andindustry journals and mentors
aspiring analysts, particularlywomen, demonstrating her
commitment to advancing genderdiversity in the field.
Her efforts have earned herrecognition from esteemed
(01:50):
organizations like theHealthcare Business Women
Association and the Women TechNetwork.
Beyond her professionalendeavors, dr Klesik dedicates
her time to supportingcancer-related initiatives and
educational programs, serving onvarious boards and establishing
academic scholarships.
(02:11):
Originally from Wrocław I'm notgoing to pronounce that
correctly Wrocław Poland sheholds a doctorate in economics
from Virginia Tech and amaster's degree from the
University of Maine.
Dr Klesik resides in Lansdale,pennsylvania, with her husband,
where she continues to makesignificant contributions to the
(02:35):
health care community andengaging in philanthropic
endeavors.
Dr Klesik was brought up RomanCatholic and continues to
preserve her faith and spiritualupbringing in her adulthood.
Passionate about equitablehealth care, dr Klesik
frequently promotes justice andcompassion on local and
(02:58):
community podcasts, advocatingfor patient advocacy and
comprehensive care that includesspiritual well-being.
Her commitment to mentoringwomen in healthcare analytics is
inspired by her spiritualbeliefs and her mission to leave
a lasting legacy and a betterworld for future generations.
(03:19):
Dr Klesik, welcome to the.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Tilted Halo.
Well, wonderful to be here.
Thank you so much for having me, Kathleen.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
We met a couple of months before we're recording
kind of experienced firsthandwhen I started in ministry and
(03:52):
it's imposter syndrome women inministry and women of leadership
who are using their faith andcommitment in their leadership,
for whom this is probablyequally a topic that they've had
(04:14):
a little bit too muchfamiliarity with, shall I say,
part of our own life and growingup.
There were no women in ministrywho were models for me when I
was starting and so it was kindof like who am I that I can be
doing this?
But even when there are otherwomen who can be models for us,
(04:40):
that can still be an issue.
So what is you know?
Give us a definition.
What is imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
to begin with, yes, thank you so much.
This is an interesting topicand imposter syndrome is
something that many of us sufferfrom.
So what it is?
It's a psychological patternwhere an individual doubts their
accomplishments and haspersistent fear of being exposed
as a fraud, and I think we allcan see in our lives that
(05:11):
sometimes we feel like, oh mygoodness, aren't they going to
find out that I'm not all ofthis?
And especially this happens forwomen in male-dominated
industries, like yourself beinga minister, a female minister.
Many women executives have thisas well.
Where they are coming in, theyare the only female on the board
(05:32):
or in the leadership group andjust feeling very different.
And it has been identified that75% of women executives say
that they feel imposter syndromein their workplace, so that is
a really staggering number, butit also tells us that we don't
(05:53):
talk about imposter syndrome.
However, it is something thatwe all are experiencing and I
think we do have to talk aboutit, whether it's in faith,
whether it's in family life orwhether this is in our
professional journey.
It's something that we are allgoing to be struggling with and
we need to identify how to dealwith it and what do we do and
how do we support ourselves inorder to overcome it.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know, it's so interesting that it's that high
of a number.
Think that it's that high of anumber even in this day and age
where I was growing up, whereyou know, women's liberation and
those kinds of things back inthe 60s and 70s was so popular
and it was like, oh, we'resupposed to be free and done
with all of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And here it is three quarters or more of us still
have this Is there any researchor things that you're aware of
as to why women in particularhave this issue?
(06:59):
So I think this is there, isyou know?
First of all, there's a lot ofresearch about imposter syndrome
.
It's just not very wellpublicized.
Many new organizations arediscussing this, but I think it
goes back to the upbringing,where we all are coming from.
So there are four types ofimposter syndrome and I think
this is important to walkthrough because anyone will
(07:19):
identify with at least one ofthem, if not all of them, as we
are talking about First of all,it we are talking about, and
first of all, it's theperfectionist.
How many of us want to doeverything just right,
everything has to be doneparticularly well and we don't
take any failure as the markupat all.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Yeah, to just piggyback on that.
I mean, I felt the need to beseen as equal to my male
counterparts.
I had to be so much better than, and so the perfectionism.
You know how dare I make a flub, because then I won't be seen
(08:00):
as worthwhile at all.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
So, yeah, that can be there very easily Very very
easily, regardless of what weare going through, and so forth.
The next one, I think is evenmore associated with women, is
being the superwoman or superman, but in this case being a
superwoman, feeling like we haveto excel in every part of our
(08:23):
professional life, our home life, our spiritual life, our
community life, everywhere wehave to come in and be at our
best, and hopefully those womenwho are listening to us right
now realize that it's notpossible to be perfectionist and
be the super woman every singleday of our lives.
(08:44):
Right, there are days where theonly thing we can do is wake up
and do the bare minimum, andthat's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
And that's okay.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Sometimes the only thing we want to do is go to
church or go to a place ofservice or worship and
spiritually uplift ourselves.
It's okay to do that and Ithink understanding that women
especially are suffering fromthe superwoman type of imposter
syndrome.
I think that brings it in and Ithink this is probably the most
(09:15):
common across women to feelingthis, because we have to be good
moms, we have to be good wives,we have to be good friends, we
have to be good workers, and itjust continuously brings us to
the point where we feeloverwhelmed.
Many women feel overwhelmed,and especially during COVID era.
I know we all passed COVID, butCOVID opened up where many
(09:36):
women experienced working eighthours at home, doing then
schoolwork for their kids,taking care of their elderly
parents, doing then schoolworkfor their kids, taking care of
their elderly parents.
It was exhausting on many ofthem, but they felt like they
had to do it all and really doit by themselves.
The next two ones are reallyrelated to and they're often
seen in the male-dominated arena, like yourself, being a female
(10:00):
minister.
For me, being in amale-dominated industry within
analytics, where I'm usually theonly woman right or one of the
few women at the table, so beingan expert and then being a
soloist.
I think we all women also, whenwe want to be superwoman, we
also want to be a soloist.
(10:20):
We want to do everythingbecause we like our table to be
set a certain way.
We want to be always recognizedright.
We always believe that everyoneelse, no one, will do the work
the way we need to get done, andI think we all suffer from this
, versus saying well, maybethat's not true, maybe I need
someone else.
And I think especially women, asthey're going in their careers,
(10:41):
are also not asking for thesupport they're not asking,
realizing I cannot be a soloist,I will never be an expert in
everything.
How do I surround myself withpeople who can complement me
right, who know, identify theblind sites, whether it's
spiritual blind sites, whetherit's our home life blind sites,
professional blind sites?
(11:01):
We all have them and I think wehave to ask for help.
That's one but two surroundourselves with individuals who
can help us fill in some ofthose gaps that we have and
ultimately release the pressure.
Release the pressure from usand be able to breathe a little
bit better, knowing that, yes, Imay not be able to do
everything.
However, I have the networkthat can help me and really will
(11:25):
support me in the arenas that Imight not be the best.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And that part in my experience for myself and with
most clergy, male as well asfemale, that I know is really
tough.
There is a competition, if youwill, that happens amongst
(11:52):
pastors and kind of the subtle.
You know, look at so-and-so,they're having trouble over
there, you know, or you knowthat congregation is not
thriving as well.
So we want to be in competitionso that we aren't like them and
(12:12):
it's a subtle type of thing.
But it also creates that silo,that solo thing that I got to do
it all myself.
And there's something, atendency with the ministry
called being the lone ranger,that whole idea I'm going to go
(12:34):
out there and conquer everything, and you know.
But for those who know the oldTV show, the lone ranger, the
lone ranger had a sidekick, hadsomebody there helping him along
the way, and we often forgetthat.
And there's the pressure fromthose who we work with sometimes
(12:56):
that you know we hired, you,called you to do this, that you
know why, why can't you do allof this, uh, type of attitude as
well.
That feeds into that um, so wekind of get it from within and
outside of us so to have thatpart of the imposter syndrome,
(13:20):
um, pushed on us validated in away that is not helpful.
No, no At all.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
It's not helpful, and I would say it's also
especially from us being you andI, both being women also.
Women inflict that very oftenon themselves, whether they like
it or not.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Being in a professional role.
There is only so many womenthat make to the top.
Right, you are on the top inyour arena.
I'm hoping that I am reachingthe top and you can see there's
a very different way of howwomen are behaving and what we
want to say.
Always leave the latter behindor help someone else on the way.
(14:00):
It is much more difficult.
The soloist and the expert Iworked so hard for it starts
coming up, and I think to yourpoint, you were talking about
ministers being, or clergy being, competitive with each other.
I think women are verycompetitive with each other in
their own professions.
And it's sometimes they are thebigger obstacle on someone
else's pathway forward and weneed to start talking about it.
(14:23):
We need to talk about theinsecurities that we all have
and realizing that, while we allwant to achieve everything, we
all can do this, but when wesupport each other and realize
that someone else might have askill set that I will never be
able to obtain or it's going totake me a long time to obtain,
but together we are much greaterthan the separate parts of us,
(14:45):
I think that makes a verydifferent changes.
The context and theunderstanding of what we can
accomplish together.
It is always that community andthe partnership that can help us
.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
And that's so interesting because traditional
Christian faith, but also Jewishand what I know of Muslim,
which is not all that much butthe community is so important in
most faith groups and so yet wecut ourselves off from that
(15:43):
community and the potential forthat, not only within our own
little communities, our ownlocal community and ministry,
but how that can empower so manybeyond us, a ripple effect, if
you will.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
I would, I would, I would agree.
Um, I think, um, growing up inpoland, church was very
important.
I was growing up during thecommunist times, right, so we
were.
You know, church was onlyallowed on certain hours of the
day and when you had to go totake the religion class, you
were going to the, to the church, and this was all done.
But it brought in peopletogether and I think the support
(16:22):
that the church was providingwasn't only spiritual.
It was a place where everyonecould gather and feel safe,
regardless of where they werecoming from, and so forth.
The other place for me which tome, that always plays in and the
church close by us.
We have a Polish shrine here.
What they provide is also thesupport for the people who might
(16:45):
not have food right.
Feed the hungry, bring them thefood, help them.
Um, for us, during thecommunist time, um, in the
united states, the communitieshere would be, the churches
would be gathering a lot of foodand clothing and they'll be
shipping them to the churchesand we would be going in and
receiving.
I always remember coming backas a five-year-old with a pound
(17:06):
of cheese on my arms that wasdelivered by one of the michigan
churches to us, and it was itis it changes how we are doing
this, but it also presents itthat we are all that much better
, that much more um successfulif we all work together.
Because even those little itemslike giving someone an advice or
(17:27):
saying something kind to them,it changes how someone can feel
and where they can go,ultimately go, and I think we
never talk about it.
but imposter syndrome is comingin because people have
insecurities and they don'tthink that, um, that others
perceive them the way they wouldlike to be perceived, and I
(17:48):
think those insecurities aregoing in.
So it's a.
It's an interesting thing howwe are doing, you know how this
is all playing out, andespecially for women, and I
think having that discussion,open discussion, and recognizing
what it can do we haven'ttalked about the impact of it
but the mental health of thatit's really significant,
(18:10):
especially on women, andespecially on women who at some
point might have all of the fourof the imposter syndromes at
the same time.
And trying to deal with that itis not an easy feast to do and
it's not an easy task toovercome.
So I think that partnership,that community, the faith, the
is the spirituality, that's whatcan really help us ground and
(18:32):
help us really start thinkingabout what it is we would have
to be able to be open about thisand to share those feelings of
(19:00):
well, you know, no, I can't doit all To be a little bit
vulnerable in saying where ourlimits are and reaching out.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
The power of a model like that for the other women in
our ministry who we work withcould be huge.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Absolutely.
I think there is nothing betterthan doing that and also giving
the you know, as I'm thinkingabout how do you overcome it.
I mean, spiritual life isextremely important, but it also
can allow not only to groundbut also normalize what imposter
syndrome is.
And normalize failure and Idon't mean failure, that you
(19:45):
know we're always going to befailing but changing the meaning
of struggle, changing themeaning of today.
I have a bad day, and do I haveto be ostracized for it?
Or do I just say I, you know?
I say God, I'm today, it'sgonna be the day that I'm gonna.
It's okay for me to wake up andtake a shower.
That's gonna be the only thingI'm gonna do and I'm gonna pray
(20:07):
for your you know, to you forthe glory or for for your
forgiveness for not doinganything else.
But I think these are all ofthe aspects that we all have to
be thinking about and talking.
I mean, we don't talk aboutwomen who just had kids, who
just gave birth, and thedepression that they are going
through or the loneliness theyare feeling, right, and I think
(20:28):
that goes in as well.
We don't think about it as animposter syndrome because that
also has a lot of psychologicaland chemical components to this,
but it does plays in because itfeeds in on the same components
, on the same basis of feelingincluded, feeling like I'm not
the only one, I'm not alone,knowing that someone else is
(20:49):
feeling this.
Right, women always suffer fromnot knowing that someone else is
going through the exact samething that someone was able to
get through.
So, as I always many of thesepresentations that I do, it's
about women executive to womenexecutive and for the leadership
component.
But it's the piece ofacknowledging, normalizing,
(21:10):
changing the perspective, what afailure is and saying, because
I'm not going to take a showertoday, that doesn't mean that I
failed.
It means that today I need abreak.
Right, I need someone else tohelp me and having that women
group or, you know, spiritualgroup that can really help,
mentor and support in the verydifficult times, that community
(21:32):
that we were just discussing isextremely, extremely important.
And raising the hand and again,we as women don't raise our
hands very often because we aresuper women, right?
We do it and um, if.
if anything, what I would say is, at the point when we can at
least pray for for your ownstrength to acknowledge to
(21:55):
yourself that you are struggling, because I don't know how many
women actually acknowledge thatIf you don't want to say it out
loud at least acknowledge toyourself and have the compassion
for yourself at that givenmoment.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Right, and that was.
I mean, there was a point in myministry where acknowledging to
myself that I was strugglingwas very difficult, but
thankfully I got into a supportgroup at that time.
I was invited into one and eventhough I didn't share a lot at
(22:29):
that time in that group, I'vebeen in another one since then.
Um, I've been in another onesince then.
Um, but it it just being thereand hearing some of the
struggles.
And I was the only female inthat support group.
Uh, uh at that point.
But, um, just being there andhaving a chance to hear what
(22:53):
some of the others were goingthrough and knowing that, oh
well, I'm not so different fromthem after all, and you know,
seeing that some of these malecolleagues from a variety of
different denominations had manyof the same struggles and you
know they had many, many moreyears of experience in ministry
(23:15):
than I did, and yet they werestill doing that or still
experiencing some of thosethings.
It really helped me at thatpoint in time.
And then the last group I waspart of, very open, very well, I
had somebody there who was kindof the facilitator for the
(23:39):
group and everything, and it wasmen and women as well, but
mostly women in that group, andit was so much more open and so
much more to breathe and to beme and to share and I grew as a
(24:00):
result of that and was able tobring a lot of that back into
the congregation, especiallybecause the congregation was
going through a huge struggle atthat point as well.
A huge struggle at that pointas well.
So all of those things are soimportant to have those mentors
(24:20):
to be a mentor.
What other kinds of things canbe helpful to deal with imposter
syndrome?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So there are many different things.
There are clearly a lot ofpsychological, behavioral type
of techniques that can be doneand I would say is I would
always advise women and men whoare struggling with any anxiety,
any mental health issues,always reach out to the
professionals and take it.
Imposter syndrome might besomething that is showing up,
(24:51):
but there might be some otherthings.
Sometimes some of us need alittle bit more help.
So I always encourage that.
But for women especially, Iwould say is celebrate
achievements.
Uh, women, don't celebrate.
women don't celebrate Um, and wedon't support each other.
We almost become jealous ofeach other's um success.
So change that.
(25:12):
When uh um celebrate the littlethings, celebrate and clap for
all of all of the women in yournetwork.
Recognize them, be kind to them.
Because, regardless of what theyare doing, they are putting
themselves out there.
They are doing something thatis different.
Help, support each other.
That imposter syndrome is goingto slowly become not as visible
(25:38):
to others, right, because we'regoing to feel much more
empowered to do what we need todo.
We also need to buildself-confidence, self-esteem,
and, again, women.
Very often women struggle withself-esteem.
If you think about it, being awoman these days, it's not that
easy, right?
You have to, you know, be agood mother, be a professional,
(26:00):
take care of your parents, be agood wife, look good, right.
Behave appropriately.
It's a.
If you think about the stressesthat women are feeling right now
, it is really the self-esteemat many different levels can be
impacted and the impostersyndrome might be coming in
because I don't look the way Iwould like or I don't.
(26:21):
You know, I'm not perceived bysomeone that I'm a good mother,
or my parents don't think I'm agood daughter, whatever that
might be.
There are so many differentthings.
So I would say, yes, self-talkand self-positive affirmation.
Stand in front of that mirrorand every day, say something
positive to yourself, becausesomeone said I was watching a
podcast or listening to apodcast and someone said, if you
(26:43):
talk very positively toyourself, it becomes ingrained
in your head, right?
If you say, oh my goodness, Ilook good today, or I feel good,
or I'm going to wake up and I'mgoing to do this, it starts
becoming you.
And the more you do that, themore your mind changes.
Mind is like a sponge, and oneof the podcasts that I was
listening to it said that eventhe unconscious thoughts that
(27:06):
might be negative are impactinghow, ultimately, we are behaving
, and that's something that we,as women, should do and try to
force ourselves to speak kindlyto yourself.
Say something good.
The second thing is we, aswomen, are very compassionate to
everyone but ourselves.
We love we.
You know.
We say we're going to take careof our kids, we're going to
(27:28):
take care of our husband.
When our parents are ailing, weare there as the caregivers.
And these are.
I mean, we all do that becausewe love the family members we
have or we love supportingothers, and support that's a.
That's a normal feeling.
But if you ask many women, arethey compassionate for
themselves?
They will say no, they're somuch more distant and strict and
(27:53):
they believe that again thatperfectionism is coming, the
superwoman coming in.
So be kind to yourself.
As I mentioned earlier,sometimes just taking a shower
it's good enough for the day,and I think if we have that
mentality of it's okay.
Treat yourself with kindness,the same kindness that you are
giving your family, yourneighbors, your co-workers.
(28:14):
Give yourself the same.
Treat yourself the same way asyou're not treating others.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
And the final I can add one thing in there.
There's the old saying that'sin some form in basically every
religion love your neighbor asyourself, and it's the as
yourself part of that that Inever heard growing up.
(28:40):
You know it was love yourneighbor love your neighbor,
great.
But when we don't love ourselves, like you're talking about with
that, we can't really love theneighbor.
We can't really love theneighbor.
And so it's being kind toourself, giving ourselves the
(29:01):
same grace, the same, you know,pass if you will at times, but
the same lack of judgment,judgmentalism that we would give
somebody else, we need to givethat to ourselves, and we have
(29:22):
the scriptural grounding forthat.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
It's not just, you know, a nice thing we're called
to do that we are, but most ofus, especially women, we don't
do that.
We don't do that because wewere always raised to put
someone else ahead of us, right.
First right so it's a….
Speaker 1 (29:41):
Being a martyr?
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And you know I come… Coming from Poland.
There is a… Polish women werecalled….
You know there is a famoussaying that… Mother Poland, or
Polish mother, however you wantto say it, but it talks about
the mother who can do everythingright, the superwoman.
So that's, that's a statue, oneof the one of the cities in
Poland, and and that was alwaysthat how we were viewing right.
(30:05):
This is the, this is what youshould be, and I think that is
that is what we women,especially, are being raised
with, and and the lack ofcompassion for for ourselves
comes from that as well.
But I love what you said loveyour neighbors like you would
love yourself, and we have towork on the love yourself first,
otherwise it's not going to befeasible to be, or even or not
(30:28):
even doable, you are not coming.
Authentic becoming.
You know you are not authenticif you don't give yourself the
same grace as everyone else.
And I would say it's alwaysdevelop those skills, because
whether you're going to be a,whether you are immersed in
faith, whether you're immersedin your professional life, or
even when you are volunteeringin a community, this always
(30:57):
requires some kind ofdevelopment some kind of
learning of a skill, some kindof educational component.
We have to invest in thisbecause that's also part of
developing yourself, investingin yourselves.
We don't talk about investmentin ourselves, but we should, and
I think spirituality is aninvestment in ourselves.
Education, whatever that mightbe, volunteering, is an
(31:17):
investment.
Being part of a being a goodfamily member, contributing
family member, is an investment.
I think there's so manydifferent investments and in
order to be whole, we have tothink about the entire spectrum
of ourselves and realize thatone day we're going to be better
in one of them, these differentaspects and sometimes we will
not be good in any of them, butthat's okay.
(31:38):
Today is what it is.
Tomorrow we can correct itright.
We can be better tomorrow.
And I was at a conference alittle bit long last year and
someone said that, especiallyfor women, that when we have a
hard day, we almost give up andwe are so devastated and it's
okay for us to cry.
(31:59):
I think you know also, as godwas.
You had the discussion withwith god what's going on.
Why am I feeling today the wayI'm feeling?
But also wake up the next dayand say the sun is up, the sun
just risen.
I can also now try to be better, I can try to do, and give
yourself the kindness of sayingI can do it, I am, I'm good and
(32:21):
and just move forward, because Ithink we don't think about that
.
That.
Allow yourself to grieve we allhave places where we are
grieving but also think aboutwhat, how you can that the next
day.
It's an opportunity to corrector have a.
Whatever you want to do, it's a.
It's a blank space.
It's a blank.
Correct or have a.
Whatever you want to do, it's a.
It's a blank space.
It's a blank sheet.
You can do whatever you want todo with that, with the next day,
(32:41):
nothing is going to be heldagainst you.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
You are going forward with the next day, the next
morning yeah, yeah, there's somany things within um, the faith
context, that um be shared.
You know talking about how thisall fits in with within
Christian faith in particular,but it because that's my context
(33:06):
, that's why why I say that.
But you know the whole ideafrom the Apostle Paul that we
are all sinned and we have allfall short of the glory of God,
which allows us to recognizethat we don't have to be perfect
, because we can't be, and butit also allows us to understand
(33:32):
that you know there's God'sgrace there and we can grow in
the midst of that and sharingand being there for other people
.
And you know it's okay.
It's okay we do the best we caneach day, knowing what we have
(33:57):
and what we can give.
Absolutely yeah.
And I just realized I have toplug in my computer.
No worries, as I've been downhere for a moment.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
So I don't lose the power, okay, but all of that is
you know, I was talking withsomeone else recently that to
remember that every single day,in every single situation, based
on what we see and what weunderstand at that moment, we
(34:34):
really try to do the best we can.
That moment we really try to dothe best we can.
And when we say I didn't do itwell enough, I failed, whatever,
that's always in retrospect,that's a judgment, looking back
on something and to recognizethat.
(34:59):
Okay, maybe, looking back on it, I see some other information,
I understand things a littledifferently.
And now the next time ortomorrow when I talk to this
person, I can change that.
The past is, it's gone and yetwe can always move forward from
there instead of feeling trappedby that.
(35:20):
That is correct.
That failure is not fatal,unless we keep that as the
definition for the rest of thefuture keep that as the
definition for the rest of thefuture, and I think that's why
reframing what failure is isvery important and changing the
(35:41):
definition of it and saying it'slearning right, it's learning
on.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yes, it didn't go the way I want it.
I can pray on it I can cry onit.
I can do whatever I need to doto digest what just happened.
Take the lessons.
Take the lessons and the nextday you have the opportunity to
change your direction, changeyour journey.
It's in your hand.
(36:07):
It's in your hand If you hearthese different stories of
individuals who went to prisonor who came from nothing, who
came from families where therewas abuse or a drug abuse or
whatever other circumstances,and you see where they ended up
(36:27):
at the end.
You are, you know it's the willthat they had of changing the
cycle, understanding theenvironment and what was
happening to them or where theywere placed and being able to
move forward and reallyunderstanding what it takes for
them and having the willpower tochange their circumstance.
And I think if this was easy,right if we all would be angels
(36:48):
here walking on this planet.
But none of us are.
We are none of us are and Ithink but that's what is the.
We all have differentexperiences and I think we learn
from each other.
We all have very differentperspective.
Some of us come in fromdifferent countries, some from
different religions, but thereis one uniform thing If you are
open and if you are willing tounderstand another human being,
(37:11):
you can move forward.
You can understand yourselfbetter.
Being a, you can move forward,you can understand yourself
better.
And you can that that impostersyndrome can ultimately slowly
be diminished because your time,your mind frame, is changing.
You are reframing your concept.
You're in framing what a right,what a failure, is right, I
mean, it's a, it's, it's thereis, unless there isn't really
(37:33):
that many things that areextreme failures.
There are things that happen tous, but if you take the
appropriate message from it andtake the learnings, the next day
might be that much better andyou can have a very different
trajectory from that point on.
And and I think that's what weall should be praying and
thinking about and and findingsolace in the fact that today
might not have been the best buttomorrow might be actually a
(37:57):
much better day, and hope andbelieve in that.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Right.
One of the things that I'vefound that helps me reframe some
of the challenges, the pains,the failures, if you will, is
gratitude.
Names the failures, if you willis gratitude Even in the midst
(38:21):
of those times when things gototally haywire and seem like,
you know, it's all going wrong,that there's always things to
find to be grateful for.
And, yes, sometimes we got tolook pretty hard, but to do that
, to be intentional, aboutlooking for the things to be
grateful for and that goes backto the part that you talked
(38:44):
about about being kind toourselves as well and to be
grateful for things within us.
To be grateful for thingswithin us, sometimes it's the
things we didn't say or thingswe didn't do that we can be
really grateful for, that urgeto say something that we bit our
tongue and didn't, which wouldhave made it far worse.
(39:04):
So, you know, anything likethat can be something to be
grateful for, something to begrateful for, and that gives us
permission and understanding tosee some of the successes that
are there too, some of thethings to give us credit for,
and the good things that werethere in the midst of that.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think this is part ofgrowing, right, this is part of
growing for all of us and Ithink if we take these lessons,
that's always good.
But sometimes, when we saycertain things, that's a part of
(39:57):
the learning as well.
We know how it made us feel orwe know how it made someone else
feel, and if we are trulycompassionate, not only to
ourselves but others, then wewill know that we made someone
else feel diminished, we madethem feel like they are
non-existent, and if we feel andwe allow ourselves to feel and
(40:20):
recognize that, we will knowthat we will not do something
forward.
So I always say this it's a.
We're all going to make errors,right.
We're all going to makemistakes, but they're not
failures, they are just.
We all trip, right.
There will be pebble on theroad, we're all going to trip
and we're going to fall down.
Maybe we scratch ourselves alittle bit more, it's going to
be more blood, maybe we evenneed stitches, but it's a
(40:45):
learning because next time,hopefully, we take those
learnings and we move forward.
And especially about impostersyndrome the moment you start
realizing what is holding youback, why you are not
recognizing it and you startthinking about it, that it all
starts with you, that very often, people don't have that
perspective or that perceptionabout you.
Right, it's all in our heads.
It's all in our heads.
I think they start changing andI really love the fact you know
(41:09):
talking to having thatsupportive network, regardless
what this needs to be, where yourealize that you are not the
only one, because most peopledon't think about many people.
Very often, right, we are soself-observed.
Very often we only think aboutourselves.
And then when you go and meetpeople, you realize that, oh my
(41:30):
goodness, hey, no one thoughtabout it, about me and, by the
way, the person that I thoughtis so confident.
They are suffering from exactlythe same thing that I am and I
was putting them on a pedestaland all of a sudden, you realize
that we all are just human.
We all have good and bad daysand we can only do what we can
do.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Right, right, I think we could continue this
conversation for quite a while,dr Klesik, but I want to honor
your time and everything here,too, shared with some eight
(42:14):
points on it about impostersyndrome that will be available
somewhere somehow along withthis podcast some link for that,
so and, if not, on the podcastplatforms, on my YouTube channel
with this, where this is posted.
So thank you so very, very much.
This has been a veryenlightening and hopefully
empowering conversation forwomen who listen to this.
(42:38):
So I truly, truly appreciateyour time and your expertise and
your insights, sharing thiswith me and with all of the
listeners and watchers of this.
All of the listeners andwatchers of this.
(42:58):
So how can people get in touchwith you if they want to learn
more or follow your?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
work and things like that Sure.
So first of all, thank you somuch for having me here.
It was a wonderful opportunityto be here and talk about a very
important topic that many womenof faith and many professional
women and women in general arefaced every single day.
For anyone who would like toreach out to me, who would like
(43:21):
to learn a little bit more ofwhat I do and some of the
leadership work that I do,please feel free to find me on
Instagram it's Dr Eva Kleczek,as my name is spelled over there
, and you can find me and sendthe invite request request and I
would love to connect with youand then you can communicate
with me through Instagram.
So thank you so much for theopportunity.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Well, thank you.
Thank you very, very much, andto all of the listeners, thank
you for being here today.
Come back for another episodeof the Tilted Halo at some point
in time.
So God's peace and blessings toyou, dr Klazek, and to all of
the Tilted Halo at some point intime.
So God's peace and blessings toyou, dr Klesik, and to all of
the people today.
So take care.
Bye-bye.
You have been listening toTilted Halo with me, kathleen
(44:05):
Panning.
What did you think about thisepisode?
I'd really like to hear fromyou.
Leave me some comments.
Be sure to like, subscribe andshare this episode and catch
another upcoming episode.
For more conversation onministry life, mindset and a
whole lot more.
Go to wwwtiltedhalohelpcom,where I've got a resource guide
(44:28):
and other resources waiting foryou, and be sure to say hi to me
, kathleen Panning, on LinkedIn.
See you on the next episode.
Popular Podcasts
Are You A Charlotte?
In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.